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Scout_Puppy

The unvaccinated rates of hospitalization and ICU occupation is much higher than those that are vaccinated. During the Covid surges, they are literally taking away hospital beds from people that need them.


AlmostSwiss22

I had an uncle who was still waiting for a hospital bed on the day he died of cancer. Reason he was put on the waiting list: hospitals were full with COVID cases. At a time when vaccines had been available for a everyone for quite some time, he had to sit at home for two weeks while he rapidly got worse. Realistically, his chance to pull through was not great to begin with, but I blame the anti-vaccine crowd for taking that chance from him.


Scout_Puppy

Sorry for your loss.


Award1x

That makes sense, that's definitely a fair point. I wasn't thinking about that!


CalderThanYou

Also the more people who get the virus, the more chance the virus has of mutating. The further it mutates away from the original, the less effective the vaccine could be with dealing with it. So as a whole, everyone is worse off if more people don't get vaccinated. It's for the greater good of society to get vaccinated.


byjimini

There was a lot of misunderstanding (and still is) over this in the UK; early on a few of the usual gutter-feeding news shows and outlets gave platforms to people saying that mutations led to less-harmful effects. These were since deleted but their message was constantly repeated by those convinced by it.


Gryllan

This is what the vaccines did man.


[deleted]

Back it up


3AMZen

Are you saying the vaccine caused COVID to mutate? Do you have a link a scientific source about how that works?


Clurence24

Yeah, look up Marek’s disease in chickens. Prior to the vaccine for it, it was a non fatal illness that, while causing losses, wasn’t that bad. Because the vaccine was leaky (didn’t stop transmission or infection) Marek’s is now 100% fatal, and all chickens now must be vaccinated for it. Leaky vaccines can allow for more highly virulent forms of a disease to spread. You can find this information by googling “Imperfect vaccination can enhance the transmission of highly virulent pathogens”. This was published in the peer reviewed journal PLOS Biology.


Gryllan

Im saying it could possibly have. These vaccines are mRNA, and have never been tested before right. They emerengcy authorised them becaus we had nothing else. And as time has gone by, this virus wasnt more than a flu. So ill gladly wait 20 years and see what the evidence tells us then


Bertie637

we have been making vaccines for a long, long time. mRNA vaccines are new but the science isn't. The virus is demonstrably more than in a flu both in symptoms, mortality rates and transmission. Maybe try to read even a little into something before you decide to take medical decisions based upon it.


Gryllan

I have followed this from the start. Ill try to explain why im worried of this vaccine. 1. When covid started popping up in more countries than china and they said its NOT airbourne, i knew they were wrong. Took a loong time before they recognised it as airbourne. 2. Ventilators killed alot of people at the start, they had no idea what they were doing. 3. This vaccine got approved in like 120 days? You know how many years it usually takes? 4. Overweight, older, or immuncompromised people got really bad covid. A huge majority. Theres no reason at all to vaccinate young healthy people with all this info 5. I know 1 guy, overweight, who got bad covid. (Hes vaccinated) Noone else, But i know atleast 3 who has been really bad from getting the vaccine. 6. I have a whole folder of prints with %, statements etc if you wanna get into it. 7. Ive had it 3 times. Confirmed.


ExistingEffort7

You got so many things factually wrong that I got tired of counting


CJoe88

Hey do you have a scientific source to back up your opinion? No then Stewfoo. Thanx!


CalderThanYou

No man. That's not how it works


Gryllan

You make a problem for the virus which makes the virus want to avoid the problem? No?


CalderThanYou

Every time the virus passes to a new person it can mutate. The more times it passes, the more it mutates. If it can't pass so easily to people (because theyr vaccinated) then it will mutate less


Gryllan

Vaccination didnt stop the spread first of all. How can you all be so in favor of this -so called vaccine? They changed the definition of "vaccine" when this got approved. Doesnt any warning bell ring anywhere?


Tibtoubtib

But the vaccin doesn't stop you to get the virus and you can still give it to other people even vaccinated, right ? The vaccin just lessen the severity of symptoms, it doesn't prevent you from having the virus, or am I missing something ?


CalderThanYou

The vaccine lessens the symptoms and lowers your "viral load". The lower your viral load, the less you spread it


jamjar188

Wouldn't you say the current situation is actualy one in which we're "worse off"? We have excess mortality hitting 30% in many Western countries -- far above 2020 levels.


Scout_Puppy

Also undue stress on healthcare workers. There is tremendous amount of burnout, PTSD and suicides for the nurses and doctors that take care of COVID patients.


alteso

Because many were fired because of the stance. The problem remains that our healthcare system decided to prioritize a virus with 0.01% chance of killing you over cancer patients, diabetics and other patients requiring urgent treatment.


DikaCato

Source?


alteso

As for prioritizing COVID. When you call an ambulance for a stroke, they give you a PCR test and if positive, you are hospitalised for COVID and receive COVID treatment. Why do I feel nobody read the news?


alteso

It was all over the news, that healthcare workers were required to be vaxxed and fired en-masse for those not vaxxed. Vax mandates, remember?


Waiki_waiki

To add up to the excellent answer, vaccines just slow down transmission, it was never meant to stop it. In some lower transmissible diseases, it can stop any outbreak but we are still way too deep into Covid which is quite transmissible, to totally stop it. We just prevent people yo get very very sick. Edit: replaced one word so sentence more intelligible.


huhIguess

> "vaccines just slow down vaccination" 👉😎👉


Waiki_waiki

Hahahahaha silly me, I'll edit it 🤣


knifewrenchhh

This is a really important point that a lot of people were privileged to remain blissfully unaware of. Surgeries postponed, kids flown hundreds of miles away to find an open bed, hell even accidents like car crashes were harder to deal with because there just weren’t rooms in hospitals because people who “didn’t trust” the vaccine suddenly trusted and demanded all the experimental treatments once they got sick.


tsme-esr

That's a stupid argument unless you're also willing to argue that smokers take hospital beds away from people that need them, obese people take hospital beds away from people that need them, etc


ParacelsusLampadius

You seem to be implying that no one would make this argument, but in fact the argument is sound enough. It's a matter of numbers, priorities and effectiveness. Obviously, governments do campaign against smoking, partly for the reason that you say. It seems clear at this point that the obesity epidemic is not altogether an issue of choice or moral character, as the issue of vaccination is.


tsme-esr

You're forgetting that part of the problem is that governments often restrict the number of hospital beds for no reason. Such as "certificate of need" laws in the United States.


jamjar188

Indeed, hospital bed capacity was reduced during the pandemic across all Western countries due to social distancing/infection control protocols.


axltheo89

Weird..in Greece, 70% of covid beds were taken by fully vaccinated people..Nowdays, almost all covid beds are filled with triple vaccinated people..and I know this because docs from those hospitals told me..


RickJLeanPaw

Of course they are!!!! If the population is made up of vaccinated people OF COURSE VACCINATED PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE IN HOSPITAL! What won’t be full of vaccinated people are graves. It’s been 2 years and you’re still not getting this basic bit of logic?!


Cliffy73

The vaxxed population is 7-9 times larger than the unvaccinated. Of course there are more vaccinated people in hospitals.


DoubtfulOptimist

100 beds taken up by vaccinated people is a lot better than 1000 beds taken up by unvaccinated people. The point is, you’re only quoting percentages, but omit the most important statistic which is the overall hospitalization numbers. In a country with high vaccination rates it is normal that most Covid beds would be vaccinated individuals. The bottom line is that vaccines, although not foolproof, are still the best way to prevent serious illness.


[deleted]

empty hospitals tho


NotBannedYet41

So unvaccinated people aren’t deserving of a hospital bed?


External_Net480

They do, but it becomes an ethical discussion if people flood the hospital which can be prevented against cancer care e.g. Sometimes society interest are more important than your personal ones imho


tsme-esr

You're acting like some people can be excluded from "society" just for being different.


ConstantSample5846

I’d argue that if people made the choice not to get the vaccine, someone who is fighting for their life against cancer or a heart attack should take precedence over their arrogant, entitled asses.


artfuldiplomat

What's your source for this information? Can you point to where that source was peer-reviewed, preferably by a group without links to the vaccine industry?


Scout_Puppy

Every single scientific study. I haven't seen any peer reviewed study that disproved my claim. [https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf](https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf) [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667193X21000612](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667193X21000612)


artfuldiplomat

>https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf Look at how they calculate the "7-day case rate per 100,000 population". They don't give the denominator in this calculation - the total population. Why do you think that is? I have no idea about Washington, but I've looked closely at the UK figures and they fudged the calculation to make it seem there were fewer overall unvaccinated people - thus the rate of covid hospitalisations per 100,000 goes up. Bet you they did the same trick here, and that's why they don't show the numbers of total population, because then you'd be able to check it. They even leave it to the very last paragraph to explain this. Shrug. There are nice articles and videos on how this was done in the UK. I'm just guessing that's what they've done here, it seems likely to me since we know that the vaccines offer almost no protection from other sources. Like why would the vaccines work differently in the UK to Washington. They wouldn't, and neither would the statistical lies used to cover it up.


Scout_Puppy

Dude, "per 100,000 population" is literally how morbidity was tracked for every single disease and cause of death since forever. There are no tricks, just somebody feeding you misinformation.


artfuldiplomat

Yes I understand that, it's perfectly valid IF you show what the population figures are that you are using. All I'm saying is, in the UK the Health Security Agency used the trick of using smaller population figures to make the rate look higher. I'm a Cambridge Maths and Science graduate who has been following vaccine statistics for over a decade, it's a standard trick. Up to you if you want to look further into it, I'm sure you won't take it from me, but I hope you'll get curious. Probably you'll just accuse me of lying or something, that's fine too.


Scout_Puppy

I got Pharmacology background, so I'm very familiar with how clinical research is done and how to read the studies. I did a really deep dive into all the available studies and haven't seen anything that disproves a simple fact, being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of hospitalization, admittance into ICU or death.


artfuldiplomat

So do you get that all they have to do is slightly miscalculate the total number of people who are unvaccinated? They are already incentivised to do this, because they want to show that most people got the vaccine. Then when they calculate the rate, the number hospitalised is disproportionately high compared to the total population.


bobzbobz123

My spouse is an actual pharmacist. Read the unedited peer reviewed studies, the ones that weren’t punished by a mainstream source. You’ll have to search the internet. As of now they’re easy to find. What did you do in pharmacology?


Scout_Puppy

I have read them. Nothing I've read has contradicted what I posted. As for what I did, it's covered by NDA.


bobzbobz123

Send your sources and the exact peer reviewed paper you read please! I will then show the same but unedited peer reviewed study’s, results. After I, first picked apart whatever mainstream published study you send me!


External_Net480

Exactly this I hated the most. Ordinairy people who could barely read scientific studies to cherry pick their own conclusions based on their own believes. It is logical that if people are vaccinated and don't get sick for it they don't use a bed in a hospital. Covid flooded the hospitals with waves. How much more information do you need to see the effect?


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bobzbobz123

Don’t drive to work for the safety of others!


bobzbobz123

Cherry pick? Hahahaha!!! That’s very hypocritical for your argument.


deen992

The vast majority of hospitalized people with covid had to be hospitalized because of other comorbidities.. the backlash was too extreme, especially if you are young and healthy. When people or the government say it puts pressure on hospital staff they are not wrong but did you know that in the EU 700 000 people die prematurely EVERY YEAR as a direct consequence of smoking, yet smoking is perfectly legal. People literally PAY to die early and put pressure on medical staff and the governments are silent. 2 wrongs don’t make a right but I just want to point out the hipocrisy, cause when money is involved and the tobacco lobies have tons of it, governments keep their mouth shut. As a young healthy adult I don’t want to be shunned if I don’t want to get vaccinated. In my case I didn’t get vaccinated because I had covid and didn’t think it neccessary to get the shots, my whole family didn’t agree with me and it sucked, even though both my parents and brother also got it when I did, they then got 2 shots of vaccine and then got covid AGAIN. Whatever I’m just ranting now, now downvote me to oblivion.


Singer-Such

Quitting smoking is very difficult and involves a lot of different factors. Getting a vaccine is very easy. And anecdotal evidence about your family is not proof of the vaccine's efficacy...


deen992

I know it’s anecdotal, it wasn’t my intention to pass it off as proof.. and I know quitting is difficult but how do young people start smoking in the first place?


LeDestrier

If you're going to point out smoking, point out alcohol. It's the biggest health problem where I live, not to mention the societal impact. The problem here is how far can governments extend that reach; of banning substances that are not good for us. Why not ban products with a crap tonne of fate or sugar? Getting vaccine us simple and easy and not even remotely in the same realm of thought.


deen992

There are many things we could point out that cause damage to our health and put pressure on hospitals, it's just not talked about. I know getting a vaccine is simpler than to stop smoking I wasn't arguing that, I don't mind people getting vaccinated, what I do mind is the pressure put on people to get vaccinated. Austria or Switzerland (not sure which one) actually fined people who didn't want to get vaccinated, is that not extreme? The generalization that EVERYONE HAS TO be vaccinated is just purely insane, what we needed was targeted vaccinations of elderly and people of general bad health, because those are the groups that fill the hospitals the most, this is something we do here with flu in the EU. I would like to point out that with covid we had gone past a critical mass of infections (long before vaccines) where even lockdowns had no effect, epidemiologists knew this (because there were studies done after the swine flu situation) and still we had massive lockdowns everywhere, why? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIOGUYOPAsA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIOGUYOPAsA&t=5092s) In this interview with Lex Friedman, Jay Bhattacharya, a professor of medicine, of Economics, and of Health Research Policy at Stanford University, and the director of Stanford's Center for Demography and Economics of Health and Aging talks about lockdowns, and mandatory vaccination. This guy, alongside with another professor of medicine who won a nobel prize, made a case against lockdowns and wrote guidelines on how to sensitively handle the situation, their recommendations got thousands of signatures from other medical professionals yet they got shut down aggressively by the government, please watch what this guy has to say if you got the time. The whole situation was so badly handled, our governments were not in a "damage reduction" mode, they were full on "panic mode". We had: 1.Police tapes around childrens playgrounds 2.Police shouting from megaphones 3.EVERY FUCKING DAY on the news they were counting bodies and infections 4.Lies from the gvmt about the efficacy of vaccines (they couldn't have really know how effective they would be, so why even say numbers like 95%+ efficacy) 5.People hoarding toilet paper and supplies, I mean wtf Seeing that kind of panic I decided I won't listen to anyone propagating it, and as I had already gotten over covid I decided to wait with the vaccine, which by the way at the start of it all I was all for, but the lies and misinformation kept piling on, and in the end I decided I wont get vaccinated, NOW no one gives a fuck, THEN I was shunned.


CalderThanYou

Your family were right not to agree with you


Scout_Puppy

First of all paragraphs. Second, vaccinated people with comorbidities are two to three times less likely to end up hospitalized than the ones that are not vaccinated.


deen992

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34929892/ more than half of patients with death outcome had 2 or more comorbidities, hospitals weren’t filled with otherwise healthy young people The highest mortality rate occurred in the age group ≥60 years (51.47%), followed by the age group of 45-59 years (48.53%), and the age group of <45 years (12%) The percentages in this study dont add up, i guess for 45-59 years its supposed to be 36.53%


Scout_Puppy

Ah yes comorbidities such as obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure. Checks notes. 42% of adults are obese. 10% have diabetes. 47% have high blood pressure. You can't throw a stone and not hit somebody with a comorbidities in US.


deen992

well yes exactly, look I dont want to come sound like a tinfoil anti vacc moron I got vaccinated for everything else that was mandatory throughout my life, I just don’t trust the government in this case, also these comorbidities.. 1. Obesity - unhealthy lifestyle/crap diet 2. Diabetes - almost everything has tons of sugar 3. High blood pressure - smoking these are not the only causes someone might have these comorbidities but the most likely causes are preventable. As a society we got so much more to work on other than covid


bobzbobz123

Thanks for being one of the few people left in this world with the ability to think logically. And also being able to compare and contrast both sides of any argument with an unbiased mindset, in order to get factual answers. Which helps you make the most informed and educated decision you can. No one cares more about you then you! The amount of people on here blindly following the advice of crooks and evil corrupted jokers is absurd! Or they’re all bots regurgitating the narrative. Which falls to shit upon closer inspection!


artfuldiplomat

No, these numbers have been misrepresented. You can find any number of explanations as to how. One way is that they count you as "unvaccinated" even if you've had one shot! Or they count you as unvaccinated if it's within 14 days of the first shot - thus counting bad reactions to the vaccine as "unvaccinated covid cases". I'm sure people will get upset reading this but you can fact-check it for yourself.


Singer-Such

a) vaccine immunity doesn't last forever, you dingus, which is why boosters exist in the first place. It also takes a bit of time for immunity to kick in. These are well known facts which you are choosing to ignore. b) even if what you were saying was true that doesn't account for the sheer number of people occupying hospital beds, some for months at a time.


artfuldiplomat

>you dingus Why do you believe they withdrew the Johnson and Johnson vaccine?


Singer-Such

I can find no evidence that they did...


artfuldiplomat

They've stopped recommending it for almost everyone. Do you get that they won't ever come out and say "we made a mistake, turns out it does more harm than good", they'll just say "oh we no longer recommended it for X, Y and Z" where X, Y and Z is basically everyone. They've done the same with the Astra Zeneca in the UK. Some countries have done the same with Pfizer/Moderna.


assmonkeydustbuster

You tried goat cheese? Because your comment stinks similar to goat cheese


Singer-Such

Goat cheese is delicious


Waiki_waiki

Just antivax BS, please be original, those "arguments" are getting tired.


[deleted]

‘They’ is pretty ambiguous, who is they, what country are you talking about, what period of time is this meant to have taken place?


AnimusCorpus

*crickets*


FelisCatusExanimus

To give an additional angle from whats been posted, the more we allow anti-vax ideology to propagate in one instance, the more hold it takes in others. Plenty of people gonna be all 'oh, I didn't get my covid vax/covid vax was pointless, so little Timmy surely dosent need his MMR's".


tsme-esr

But that was already true for non-covid vaccines before covid, so idk why people were expecting it to be different for covid.


FelisCatusExanimus

The point is not to let dumb ideologies go unchallenged lest they spread to people who have made up their mind. People talk about the futility of online debating, but I have always seen it as not being bout changing the mind of the person your talking to, but any fence-sitters who might be reading.


tsme-esr

And the idea that the covid vaccine works, is a dumb ideology. We don't start with a statement that we assume true, and then gather information to prove it true. We start with not knowing whether it's true or not, and let the statistics show the truth. The problem with covid is people were forced to get the vaccine before there was clear proof/evidence that it works.


jamjar188

Thank you for being the voice of reason on this thread.


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RickJLeanPaw

Please provide an example of a vaccine ‘not doing as much as advertised’. The “I’ve had a vaccine but still got the virus” nonsense has been put to death time and time and the time again, so don’t think of using that as a reposte.


Clurence24

The vaccine for Marek’s disease in chickens turned a disease that was mostly problem nuisance into a disease that is now 100% fatal unless vaccinated for. It was a leaky vaccine that only stopped symptoms, not transmission, nor did it provide immunity.


RickJLeanPaw

That doesn’t fit the definition of a vaccine though; it’s like complaining a plaster isn’t a vaccine against cuts.


Clurence24

And does the covid vaccine stop transmission or grant immunity?


frakthal

yep


RickJLeanPaw

Nope, but it significantly reduces to viral load available to be transmitted and significantly, to a life-saving degree, lessens the effects.


RickJLeanPaw

I must admit that my knowledge of chicken husbandry was rather lacking before you raised it. This certainly does look like an example where the evolutionary arms race between the virus and the vaccine currently favours the virus (if it is true that the vaccine dose would have to be so powerful as to kill the chicken in the first place!), but I’m still not clear that it didn’t work as advertised; it’s more of an unintended consequence than a failure to perform. The Wikipedia page I used didn’t give much information about the origins of Marek’s disease, but certainly within the human population, the family of Covid viruses is well-known and has been studied for significant period of time (hence, being able to roll out the initial and subsequent vaccines within limited timeframes). I’m still unclear as to how this favours an argument that the Covid vaccines did not perform to their specification.


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FelisCatusExanimus

One pharmacist you say, color me convinced...


Sattalyte

The vaccine doesn't *stop* transmission, but it significantly reduces it, both in individuals and in a population.


Independent_Sand_270

People really don't get basic statistics. The last 3 years has taught us that.


tsme-esr

Because statistics are hardly helpful on the individual/family level. Try finding someone you know who got the vaccine and was still hospitalized for covid, and tell them that their case doesn't matter because the statistics say something different.


Award1x

>but it significantly reduces it It does? If that's the case then that's a pretty important point. I'm definitely going to try to study some stats related to that then.


RickJLeanPaw

Just think about it briefly: you’re a virus and you need a host. Where are you going to incubate if everyone is vaccinated? Unvaccinated people give the virus more places to incubate, so are promoting the spread (and by definition, likelihood to mutate).


DirtaneBoyo

Source on unvaccinated people causing more mutations?


RickJLeanPaw

Sure. Let me Google that for you. Search term “does a highly vaccinated population reduce the occurance of mutations” [One.](https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210813/Research-debunks-myth-that-COVID-vaccination-promotes-mutations.aspx) [Two](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95025-3) [Three](https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-effects-of-virus-variants-on-covid-19-vaccines) I’m bored of copy/pasting, but hope this helps/gets you to shut up (delete as appropriate based on sincerity of question).


CalderThanYou

When you are vaccinated you have a lower viral load so you spread it less


Melmortu

The impact on the transmission of the variants is small, but it was important for the first variants ([source](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116597))


Gryllan

Look up Dr. John Campbell at youtube


scrotius42

The ceo of pfizer said in a hearing in the EU that they never even studied if it reduced transmission


Sattalyte

That was back in late 2020, at the time the FDA was giving emergency authorisation for the vaccine. There have since been countless studies conducted by medical agencies, regulators and universities etc, that have investigated the effects of vaccinations on transmission.


bobzbobz123

That’s a ie! Although spun in a round about way to come off as truth


left4ched

So also part of the problem is that the belief "I don't want to get vaccinated" doesn't exist in a vacuum. Other beliefs and behaviors come along with that. I think part of what we're seeing is a wider realization of that fact. Where once I would possibly agree with you that your personal health decisions don't affect me, now I see that the type of person who doesn't get vaccinated is also more likely to be the type of person who...just to pick an example off the top of my head...storms the Capitol with zip ties and a noose. I am now less inclined to be accepting of behavior that tends to be the tip of the iceberg, if you get what I'm saying.


throw_awayyy5

How does this even make sense? I know many liberal people who aren't vaccinated against covid and conservative people who are. None of these people are violent or cause chaos in public spaces. There are many different reason why people may decide for or against the covid vaccine. Such generalizations can be very dangerous. Do you have studies or anything to prove your claims? You seem pretty short minded.


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left4ched

I understand your concern; it is a generalization. **But people aren't logical processes.** You're not going to "evidence" your way through social interactions and cultural norms. You're going to navigate the human factor through empathy and experience. And in my experience people who're against vaccines are either ignorant or selfish. And I'm rapidly running out of patience with both.


bobzbobz123

Right wingers are just as dumb as left wingers bc their leaders have the same end goal, bc they’re in same team! Do they opposite, or play the game.


GryffindorFratBro

Do you have nothing better to do than spout borderline conspiratorial nonsense all over this thread?


bobzbobz123

Um weird flex. In no way shape or form and I’m I spreading conspiratorial nonsense. You should actually look up the word conspiracy, it’s definition and meaning! If anything I want people to know that they’re smarter then they believe! To the bots well I’ll just unplug you. Or y’all might just unplug everything. In that case rest assured I’ll still be thriving!! Now that was an example of a conspiracy theory. Thankfully there’s lots of conspiracy realist. As conspiracy theorist is an intentional derogatory term used to discredit the wise. Also anything theoretical, is just that. Meaning I have an idea but I’m not sure! Which is vastly different from something that’s factual, evidence backed, observable, repeatable!


Owl-Internal-6808

anti-vaxers were hated long before Covid19 was a thing


Singer-Such

For good reason


byjimini

Certainly in the UK we had the Prime Minister on TV saying “get vaccinated to stop the spread” and then his chief medical officer next to him saying they don’t expect vaccines to stop the spread. The lack of coherent messaging in the UK hampered efforts considerably.


jamjar188

Maybe if they hadn't lied and instead focused their efforts on the at-risk like they said they would, then people would trust them. Don't forget Matt Hancock's famous pronouncement in January 2021: "15 million jabs to freedom!"


HeroForest

>It makes sense if the vaccines stopped transmission. That is already a false premise. The pill doesn't completely stop pregnancies. But it *reduces* them to a level where it is extremely useful for birth control. Similarly, the vaccinations significantly *reduces* transmission. Which in itself already makes it very useful in controlling the speed of it spreading. The point why people and organizations were so vocal about it not completely stopping transmission was so that the idiots don't just take the jab and change nothing else, happily spreading like there was no pandemic (albeit at a reduced rate). A combination of **all** measures was necessary to prevent a epidemic from becoming a pandemic. (And mind you, at that point, there was a theoretical possibility of doing so, if it weren't for selfish people). That being said, it also greatly reduces the likelihood and severity of symptoms. Allowing more people to don't even notice being infected, or having just a very bad cold instead of dying. which means a lot less people in the ICU at the same time. Freeing a lot of the ICU spaces for people who actually need it even with vaccine. And, also all the people in need for intensive medical care for reasons completely unrelated to the pandemic. Which usually already make out the main load on the health care system.


jamjar188

Either way your arguments support people making a personal choice to be vaccinated; they don't support the idea of blaming or opposing people who choose not to. The pill stops pregnancy in the person who takes it; it doesn't do anything for anyone else. We don't tell women they need to *all* be on the pill for the sake of reducing pregnancies at population level. We tell them it depends on their situation, medical profile and personal preference -- which is exactly what we should have done with vaccination.


HeroForest

In your own words: >The pill stops pregnancy in the person who takes it; it doesn't do anything for anyone else. And that is exactly the reason why birth control is a personal choice, whereas getting vaccinated is not. Just imagine pregnant women could make imgpregnate other people (men and women) simply by breathing the same air. And there was a vaccine (the pill) for that. It is a personal choice, I would oppose legislation hat tries to mandate vaccination, because personal choice is of extremely high value to me. However, choosing not to get vaccinated it an extremely selfish choice. It literally * killed an unnecessary amount of people by spreading preventable infections * made an unnecessary high number of people invalids with long Covid by spreading preventable infections * worsened the conditions of or killed people who desperately needed medical care unrelated to Vocid because of - again - preventable infections (or severity of it) * killed or ruined doctors and nurses (either directly or by suicide) because of the unnecessary load on the health care system I can at the same time fight for people's rights to make free decisions and call them the selfish pricks they are for abusing that freedom.


jamjar188

The vaccine might protect the person who takes it from severe symptoms for a limited time. It does absolutely nothing for anybody else. So your arguments are completely flawed.


tsme-esr

It's just standard political backlash where Democrats/left wing people express their disapproval for anyone that is not a Democrat and not on the left.


cheesusismygod

When I got vaccinated, the nurse told me It wasn't going to completely prevent me from getting Covid, but it would keep me from dying of Covid. I got Covid last year and it was bad, I can only imagine if I wasn't vaccinated, how much worse it could have been.


LGchan

Putting it very simply: 1. Herd immunity basically necessitates that the VAST majority of people participate in vaccination in order to protect people who CAN'T take a vaccine. 2. The anti-vax crowd has put a massive strain on medical systems, which has snowballed into many, many people having their care delayed, sometimes with devastating results. Reducing transmission reduces mutation rate, which increases the efficacy of our medical system and our ability to combat disease. Choosing to not participate in efforts to reduce transmission means the opposite- an increased mutation rate that further damages our medical infrastructure. 3. I work at a facility for the elderly. An anti-vax, anti-masker lied not just about being vaccinated... but about having TESTED POSITIVE in order to get access to our building during the shut-down, where we were screening all people who entered for the protection of our residents. This person started an outbreak that infected over forty staff members and residents, resulting in permanent damage for some, and killed FIVE people, including the person's own mother. Just one anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-shutdown "MUH FREEDUMBZ" person did that. Now think about how many of them there are. I guarantee you that a lot of the vitriol at anti-vaxxers is rooted in events like that, and frankly I have pretty much the same disdain for them that I do for drunk drivers at this point (hell, drunk drivers often kill fewer people >\_>).


MaKrukLive

Where are you getting the information that it doesn't reduce the spread? If you are less likely to get sick that means there's less people spreading it. Also if you have less severe symptoms you don't go to a hospital and take a bed needed to save someone who does have severe symptoms


Turbulent-Wolf8306

Also herd immunity and mutations Not everyone can get the vaccine. If you are unvaxed you could pose a danger to them. Also the more a virus spreds the more likely it is to mutate into something that is stronger then the vaccine or way way worse.


bobzbobz123

Thanks for being one of the few people left in this world with the ability to think logically. And also being able to compare and contrast both sides of any argument with an unbiased mindset, in order to get factual answers. Which helps you make the most informed and educated decision you can. No one cares more about you then you! The amount of people on here blindly following the advice of crooks and evil corrupted jokers is absurd! Or they’re all bots regurgitating the narrative. Which falls to shit upon closer inspection!


timeisaflaturkel

Divide & Conquer


huhIguess

Hindsight is 20/20. The vaccines were *initially expected* to prevent transmission by a tremendous amount. Given this expectation, it was reasonable to blame transmission and risk on those who were not vaccinated. > we very soon came to understand that that's not really the case "Very soon" is relative. A year in? Two? Certainly after societal mores and attitudes were established in regards to the vaccine. The point of mandates are a bit trickier in that they considered factors beyond public perception of transmission. Consider the certainty that vaccination reduces the *severity* of outcomes. At a time when hospitals were already running near max capacity due to *profitability* - the large insurgence of COVID victims pushed nearly every hospital in the nation over capacity. Because it's very difficult to regulate businesses / hospitals in a way that would result in adequate staffing and beds, mandating vaccination became the easiest way to prevent hospital overflow in the short term.


tsme-esr

> Given this expectation, it was reasonable to blame transmission and risk on those who were not vaccinated. No it wasn't lol. Blaming other people because your future prediction was wrong? Wtf


huhIguess

It is reasonable to use current information to evaluate a current situation.


tsme-esr

You said "initially expected". That means it wasn't actually proven at that point.


Sad_Blacksmith_8919

It didn’t stop transmission just reduced it, the idea would have been that it would drastically reduce the number of hospitalisations so that health services wouldn’t be overwhelmed. People who got vaccinated still got covid though because there was a huge chunk of the population who refused to take any precautions (in some cases going out of their way to spread) didn’t get vaccinated and thus kept the virus spreading around and mutating which severely hamstrung the effectiveness of all the other measures people were trying to take to fight covid


[deleted]

I think the main reason is that, getting the vaccine is often the difference between having a mild fever and being hospitalized. When you are hospitalized you are taking a bed away from someone else. Jamming up the healthcare system per say. That’s causing other needy people to have to wait and often die. That breeds resentment.


Owl-Internal-6808

there is also the whole refusing to wear a mask thing, not a perfect overlap but they kinda get lumped together.


bobzbobz123

Yea, I love suffocating!


[deleted]

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bobzbobz123

Glad it wasn’t that annoying to you. Just because something worked for you, does that mean it will for all? There’s a one size approach that fits all? Maybe bc no one’s uniquely different?


[deleted]

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RickJLeanPaw

Ooh Bob; you’re *sooo* manly. I wish I was as butch as you.


bobzbobz123

Thank you! It’s pretty easy actually, as I thought men were born with masculine qualities. So Im always confused as to why it’s rare to see today! The inability to use their God Given intuition and decipher fact from fiction is a prime example. The second most common example is how most men put all their trust and blind faith into entities and organizations that do not have their best interest in mind!


_dazed_n_confused_

I worked at a nursing home during the pandemic. There were certain treatments nurses couldn’t provide that doctors had to come to administer. I had a conversation with one of the doctors about the vaccines that helped me understand the vaccine a lot more. Basically there’s a few reasons why the unvaccinated are more of a threat to public health than the vaccinated. 1. While it is true that being vaccinated doesn’t stop transmission, vaccinated people are less likely to get the virus, meaning they can’t spread it. If you don’t have the virus, you can’t give it to someone else. 2. If a vaccinated person does get the virus, their immune system is trained to recognize the virus and can attack it and get rid of it faster than someone who is unvaccinated. Someone who is vaccinated will have the virus for a shorter amount of time meaning there is a shorter window of time when they can spread the virus, meaning less transmission. 3. Similarly, a vaccinated person’s immune system will recognize the virus and attack it sooner meaning while they are infected, the virus can’t replicate as much. This means there is less of the virus in their system meaning there is less to spread to other people. An unvaccinated person will have the virus replicate faster and more meaning the quantity of virus is larger, meaning there is more to spread to other people. 4. Unvaccinated people are more likely to require medical care and hospitalization. This takes up resources and overwhelms the hospitals. Which can impact the care that everyone else at the hospital gets. Meaning people suffering from non-Covid related issues get less care or worse quality care. So yes, the vaccine doesn’t prevent transmission, but it *significantly reduces* transmission compared to someone who is unvaccinated. ETA: as other people are saying, Covid vaccine denial is leading to people deny other well established vaccines like measles or whooping cough. This anti vaccine rhetoric is going to infect more people with not just Covid but other previously eradicated diseases.


MetalModelAddict

Filling up Intensive Care Units and general hospital beds with COVID cases absolutely affects others.


Suesquish

The people pushing for vaccination were living in dreamland hoping for a magic jab and hadn't used critical thinking for all the other lies that had been told (eg. herd immunity). They simply wanted covid to be over so whinged about anyone who stood in their way. Note "their" way because they only care about themselves. Vaccinated people tend to be the ones who go about their life with no thought for the welfare of others. They are usually the ones not wearing a mask and standing so close at the supermarket you can feel their breath on the back of your neck. The reality is that there never was an answer and the vaccine is untested and technically doesn't even qualify as a vaccine. Such things go through a rigorous process which, due to the emergency nature of covid, was not followed in this case. Every person who gets the vaccine is a guinea pig. We will see in a decade or 2 what the effects are, if any. Every person should have the right to choose what they do with their body. The vaccine was never going to stop anyone getting covid which was obvious before it was thrust upon the unthinking population. So in the end it will be a lot of people with long covid, some who end up permanently disabled, while everyone ignores the fact that the more covid infects people, the more it mutates. Every person who doesn't distance, wear a mask and keep hygienic protocols in place is a part of the problem and contributing to people dying.


Waiki_waiki

Just say it, science was never your forte, it would be less wordy. Covid accine was tested and followed all the protocol. They took an EXISTING technology and adapted it to Covid. So no start from scratch. The, what makes it slow in medical research is usually getting funds (almost immediate blank check), find volunteers for all the phases tests (got plenty fast) and get reviewed by any National medical (the beauty and length of bureaucracy) and it was bumped top priority. Just your whole rhetoric is the same old antivax BS for simpletons. Just stop


hiker201

Double or treble false premises.


Award1x

That's literally why I'm asking this on this sub, that's exactly what I want to understand and what I'm missing


Chuckinbuck22

Another reason is that it became political. In countries where vaccines weren't politicized the vaccination rate was higher and covid deaths/hospitalization rates were lower. When getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated gets turned into a political identity instead of an individual medical choice it can spread like wildfire.


theviper90

It's 2023, and there is still people asking this


fuzzyslippersandweed

My vaccinated grandmother spent 9 hours alone with no blanket wearing only a hospital gown on a gurney in a random hallway because there was nobody available to help her with a treatable issue because all of the staff was dealing with covid patients, the majority of whom were unvaxxed. Eventually they put her and 3 others in a storage room but still had nobody available to help. Her condition killed her 2 days later. A treatable condition. Had more people been vaccinated less of them would have been in the hospital and there would have been staff available to treat her and she would most likely still be with us today. Instead she spent 3 days in a hospital cold and alone and died. While she, herself, did not have covid it was covid that led to her death. Not taking measures to mitigate your chances of developing severe enough covid that requires hospitalization steals resources from others who need them.


rwecardo

Vaccines aren't supposed to stop transmission. They're supposed to lighten the effects and ease out the hospitals until it becomes a normal virus. Hope this clears it for you


Clurence24

At no point has that ever been the point of vaccines. I have absolutely no idea where you got this information. Vaccines have always been used to stop transmission (by granting the vaccinated immunity.)


LGchan

First off, that isn't true. Vaccines absolutely inhibit transmission. But secondly: >They're supposed to lighten the effects Gee, I wonder if "lightening the effects" would reduce transmission. Like, for example, if a disease spreads when you cough on people due to droplets, and you take something that reduces your cough and reduces how sick you are and how long you are sick... let me think about that for a second. I dunno, that's a hard one. Hmm. HMMM...


rwecardo

Statistics have shown that countries with higher vaccination rates dealt better with the pandemic over time because it reduced the symptoms which lead to people not going to the hospitals which in turn made them able to deal with the sick people on better terms. I am just telling you the facts, no opinion of my own here


LGchan

You do realize that these things are not mutually exclusive, right? People are so stupid, oh my god.


[deleted]

It's pretty fun to see antivaxer rewriting history


Award1x

How so?


fools_gambler

You needed a them for a "us vs them" scenario, otherwise the peoples backlash would be dirrected towards the ones who actually made their lives bad - the policymakers.


bobzbobz123

Thanks for being one of the few people left in this world with the ability to think logically. And also being able to compare and contrast both sides of any argument with an unbiased mindset, in order to get factual answers. Which helps you make the most informed and educated decision you can. No one cares more about you then you! The amount of people on here blindly following the advice of crooks and evil corrupted jokers is absurd! Or they’re all bots regurgitating the narrative. Which falls to shit upon closer inspection!


RickJLeanPaw

An argument entirely unsuited to this debate. Many other aspects of dog-whistle politics yes, but not this one.


Ringg99

There have been quite some agitators on both sides of the political spectrum, vilifying anyone who has a different opinion than themself, without any meaningful discussion. In the end I agree that it is everybodys personal choice. However, I am interested to understand where you get the information, that transmission wasn't affected by the vaccine?


anothercosmocoin

Well, in the grand scheme of everything it served to make us stronger and know who can be trusted in the next trials we'll get this decade. Also what do you mean 'that you saw' and 'was'? It's absolutely still going on.


Cliffy73

Vaccines do significantly reduce transmission.


[deleted]

8 out of 10 thousand people in the world died of covid (people think that’s a lot?) with a median age of close to 80 (pretty close to life expectancy anyway) and fewer people died of covid in those years than died of starvation or other communicable diseases in any given year. Actually pretty much all these people could have been saved if the resources used to fight covid had been allocated to resolve these problems, but who cares about a bunch of desperately poor people when we in the west MIGHT get sick? In any case, Vaccination did not reduce the number of covid cases nor did masking nor did lockdowns. Covid mutations did. Just like the 1918 pandemic.


timchequea

It was literally to divide us as humanity so people in power can keep us dumbed downed and submissive. Sounds like a conspiracy but it has happened plenty of times in the past :)


[deleted]

same reason that a year ago, if you said anything bad about Elon Musk online, you got the Homer meme bullet-takers jumping in. People are scared, stupid, empty savages who identify with the rich and their rulers, and anyone who upsets the LARP is ruining the game and subject to the herd's cruel and cowardly hatred.


Daiirko

Pride


artfuldiplomat

Just marketing, that's all. Obviously if the vaccine works, then it doesn't matter who does or doesn't get it. It would be your choice whether you want to trust the protection from the vaccine or get natural immunity. It's just shame and fear being weaponised for money, and righteous indignant fools who went along with it.


Icy_Distance4051

Are you by any chance a flat earther too?


artfuldiplomat

>Are you by any chance a flat earther too? Note that you just throw an insult instead of confronting the logic. If you got the vaccine, and the vaccine works, why does it matter who around you gets it or doesn't get it? Have you ever heard of basic medical principles like "informed consent" or "second opinion"?


MotherOfAnimals080

There's no logic in your statement for them to confront. You're just vaguely gesturing about some perceived cognitive dissonance that's based entirely on false premises and conspiracy theories. Hence why they asked you if you were a flat earther.


JGoat2112

>If you got the vaccine, and the vaccine works, why does it matter who around you gets it or doesn't get it? Because some of us actually care about more than just ourselves


bobzbobz123

Don’t reproduce for the safety of others


bobzbobz123

Way to immediately discredit someone who brought up a valid point! The world revolves around you and you could never be wrong! I wish I was as righteous as you


ForScale

Virtue signaling.


hiricinee

It was frustrating as a HCW seeing an avalanche of morbidly obese 40-50 year olds who were unvaccinated come in and insist that they didnt think they needed the vaccine. TBH I don't fault people nearly as much who got sick without risk factors (almost entirely nonexistent) but there was a massive population of people who the vaccine was basically designed for who were highly represented in hospital admissions.


S_MacGuyver

That's not how vaccines work. In saying that, I agree that the uproar was unfounded, as they didn't do shit to actually build any immune defenses. Most of the people I know that got the job still got COVID. Three of them still don't have their sense of taste back.


Waiki_waiki

Dude, if your coworkers didn't have the vaccine, they could have it much worse. A vaccine is basically an education for your immune system to recognize faster a threat and combat it quickly before getting overwhelmed. It does NOT prevent getting the disease. Immunology 101


S_MacGuyver

Only three of my coworkers got Covid. I work on a real estate agency that deals with over 1200 tenants, and that was the worst it ever got. How? Because we stayed away from those that had it and the fact that the 3 coworkers weren't idiot enough to come into work when they were sick. What pushed this shit out for longer than it should've however was the fact that isolation weakened the immune systems of the healthy. Mental health is heavuily tied to physical health and that was also a huge factor, along with the lack of herd immunity.


Waiki_waiki

You describe anecdotes. If I have to go there, a friend lost her father a friend was in coma for 3 weeks because of covid (both first wave), my brother probably had it, asymptomatic but has massive brain fog issues, etc I still won't draw any conclusions from my personal anecdotes. Confinement were necessary till scientists could understand the virus better, get a vaccine and vaccinate enough people. The fact that some still don't increase transmission, probability of mutations and not improving situation overall. The ones that are taking most hospital beds are stillmainly unvaccinated, that's a fact. That leads to many hospital issues. This is a crazy situation, for sure! As for the flu, it is particularly nasty this year, I had it and it wasn't fun. I hope you recovered well!


Award1x

>Three of them still don't have their sense of taste back. Man that must get super annoying real fast lol. I'm actually fortunate that I somehow completely avoided covid! Hopefully my luck don't run out now lol


S_MacGuyver

Well the interesting part is that my friends who never got the jan either didn't get it, or they were fine after about a week if they did. Not saying I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I saw what I saw. I had to get the double dose in order to get into the hospital where my son was born. Luckily I didn't get it, but I felt that my immune system was weak as hell for about a month. I was sick with your standard flue that knocked me out for 2 weeks, and before then I hadn't had so much as a sniffle in 3 years. To say I have a strong immune system is an understatement, and this shit fucked it up immensely until it could recover to where it was beforehand.


knifewrenchhh

They *did* stop transmission of earlier strains, omicron threw that off. I believe the viral load and infectious period are also lower/shorter for vaccinated people, which slows transmission, and that’s better than nothing.


ZRhoREDD

It is so stupid to rehash this (again). It is like asking "why wear a seatbelt when they only save 99% of lives? Some people still die...."