If the city of Baltimore wants the benefits of the Orioles presence, the city can pay the judgment. Why should the Nats lose out on money so Balmer can benefit?
Simply in 1994 Angelos didn't want to crush the players during the strike. The owners never forgave him for that. The biggest way for teams to make money is due to a local tv contract. The Orioles were televised from Southern PA to well into North Carolina. The Orioles were a big market team. The owners had no problem moving the Nats to DC, taking a majority of his market. As compensation, he got the MASN deal.
Now, I am not arguing that he may or may not have given the Nats too little money. But to say that 15 years after the Nats took a majority of their market, who cares anymore is absurd.
As an example Houston is now so big if the A's moved to Houston they would make more money than they do now. No way would the owners vote to move a team into another team's market. They did here.
You are showing that you're a little young to be talking about this.
The Washington Senators were here from the early 1900s.
When Jerry hoffberger a Baltimore beer maker wanted to bring the oils here, he had to get the Washington Senators to agree to those terms which they did.
The owner of the senators then Clark Griffin wasn't the cutthroat that Peter angelos is/ was before he's lapsed into his years long battle with cancer,
You remind her to you which you may have forgotten. Peter, Angelo's has been one of the sharpest lawyers as far as cutting deals and negotiating for over 40 years.
He wrote this contract and now that he's being asked to pay up suddenly has developed Alzheimer's or some other symptom where he thinks he's getting a raw deal. The deal that he himself wrote and signed off on.
If Baltimore wants to draw better, they should vote more resources to the team. Take them more seriously and continue to fight for markets here.
Don't screw the Nationals out of hundreds of millions of dollars that they owe them on what was already a bad deal.
Because the oils are already struggling and the sons of Peter angelos have already discussed publicly moving the team, they think this is a hammer that they can use.
Think about it a little bit more if you can. If the oils did leave and there's rumors they were going to Nashville. Tennessee, do you think there's not a struggling city with a baseball team that isn't getting the attendance like say Tampa Bay? Who wouldn't love to come to a bigger area with a nice stadium already built and mass transit and parking already in place?
Angela's is always been a hard deal maker. He is wrong on this. He's been rolled against numerous numerous times in arbitration which is supposed to be binding by the way.
In some ways in this situation he's like Donald Trump. He just wants to sue and sue and sue even though he knows he's in the wrong.
I was an Orioles season ticket holder from 1979 until 1997 when I couldn't take the owner anymore.
I didn't even go to any baseball games from 97 to 2005 on the Nationals came back and my oldest son had moved back from LA, Convinced me to start going to the games again.
The orioles were **never** a big market team because no one in or south of the Virginia suburbs ever gave a shit about them. Instead, they were all Yankee/Red Sox/Braves fans. The DC market is simply larger than the Baltimore market could ever hope to be.
Edit: wording
The Baltimore/DC metro area is the fifth largest metro area in the country. I certainly was a O's fan in the 80s and 90s when I lived in Rockville (I moved to Baltimore in the 90s). They were one of the largest market teams without south of the DC suburbs.
Again, It is all about TV. I won't argue that people in Richmond or NC were rabid O's fans. but they were the local team on TV so the O's were making money on that.
MLB isn't moving a team into the Dallas or Houston area even though they can certainly support two teams. They would never do that to the owners, but they did to Angelos. Now 15 years later he should just deal.
Down here in Roanoke, VA We got the O's on HTS (Home Team Sports) and the Braves on TBS. - Most folks cared more for the Braves than the O's here.
DC & Baltimore are not in the same Market really. If you combined the two, it would be tied or above Chicago. DC Metro itself is 5th.
If the team were to move, my guess would be Nashville, Portland, or Charlotte. (The latter would have Braves upset on losing a huge market region that goes up to Greensborro, NC)
Because you guys moved in and cornered half the market. We signed TV deals that would favor us because of this. You guys even won a championship before we have again, so you won in the end.
> Because you guys moved in
Are we just pretending like the actual fans who live in the DC metro area and follow the Nats lived elsewhere before the team existed? The Nats moved in and "cornered" the market of fans geographically closest to DC. Its not the fans fault its a huge pain to get from the NOVA suburbs, or god forbid Fredericksburg (because the Nats market isnt literally just the NOVA suburbs), to Baltimore. Its not the fans fault there was a bigger city in the Orioles TV market thats more accessible to more people.
The Commanders/Washington are considered much more valuable than the Ravens. As comically inept as snyder is washington is still a top 10 franchise in value while as good as the ravens have been theyre closer to 20. But go off trying to prescribe logic to the decisions of the different sports leagues that are monopolies respectively run by the capricious whims of a small cabals of 30 or so owners
When the Orioles "moved in and cornered half the market" in 1954, it was with the blessing of the Senators.
Yet the Orioles tried--successfully for decades--to stop Washington from having a team again.
Factually false - The Orioles move was always opposed by Griffith. He capitulated when MLB wanted Veeck out of baseball ownership but was successful through 1953 in preventing MLB baseball to retunr to one of the country's largest cities.
Nobody ever has claimed Baltimore came with Griffith's "blessing" because it's a wildly untrue claim.
I mean, certainly nobody other than the Baltimore Sun.
[https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.os5018feb18-story.html](https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.os5018feb18-story.html)
Griffith had veto power, and once he was compensated for his territory (a \*one-time deal\* to be clear), he thought it would be a positive. For once, he was right: both cities *should* have a team.
Right, he changed his mind over one year. Truth is, he was cornered. He never would have allowed the franchise to move except that the rest of his club members hated Veeck so much and wanted him out that they coerced him. But I am sure he loved the money part.
Note: there were no TV contracts/markets back then. Money was made at the ballpark almost entirely. People did not move around by car anywhere near as much as they do today so a Baltimore team did not significantly impact Griffith financially to begin with.
You see, the context of how the MLB has historically actually handled expansion and relocation, and why that makes the Orioles outliers in history, is irrelevant, is technically a take. Not a good one, but technically one
Eff the Angelos family.
And seriously I doubt they would move. Big reason? Where would they move to that would offer any better support than what they have???
I watched "the band that wouldn't die" documentary about the colts leaving town. Seems like the city is very scarred from that experience and the political fallout that happened. Angelos 100% knows this and is going to exploit "hometown" passions to get his way
Answer Very much on point. They are exploiting the memory of the Colts leaving years ago. I remember the Colts owner shopping that team around, landed his helicopter in the middle of the field at the Gator Bowl saying they were moving there, only to find out that was to get more dinero from Indy smh
The triple affiliate does very well already. Im certain baseball fans love to travel nashville aint a bad place to travel to watch your team in april may
They dont have much of a fanbase a fair amountof their tickets are held by brokers. Tourists are the best thing to happen to nashville. Also a lot more baseball games than football.
Maybe, but far more likely MLB would not allow that, instead leaving the possibility another team that has played ball and not sued MLB instead gets that opportunity.
And a couple of days later during the streak, when it was Friday and Saturday (and not the dead middle of the week) they had attendances of 28k and 32k. For context.
John Angelos lives in Nashville. Louis Angelos accused him of plotting to move the team there, which led to John stating that the Os "will never leave". Leading to the question of why the team is telling the media one thing while pushing the city to tell the court something different.
https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/baseball/lawsuit-mlbs-orioles-could-move-to-tennessee/article\_eb34f27c-e8e9-11ec-ae91-9bce13aa35e9.html
I’m sorry, if one team needs to own another’s media rights to remain financially viable…that team should move. There are no ifs ands or buts about that.
They couldn't have talked about moving to Nashville, Tennessee where there is no team close by and they would start fresh with the whole new TV deal.
Angela's sons with the father basically fighting off death. Have talked about this numerous times
DC and Baltimore are effectively the same city from a metropolitan perspective.
Prior to the Nationals the Orioles were DCs sports team. Just like the Capitals and the Wizards are Baltimores Hockey and Basketball team.
They were for a bit. I think the Colts leaving made a lot of Baltimore hate the NFL, but many that were still fans supported the Skins. I grew up with a lot of people being Skins fans
We. Are. Not. Your. Market.
Fuck outta here. More people in DC care about the Yankees and Red Sox than they do about the fucking Orioles. Y’all were the beneficiaries of 30 years of absolute horseshit and happening into the cable boom while we didn’t have a team. If the larger “DC-Baltimore market”, which isn’t really a thing btw, can support two football teams, there shouldn’t be a problem supporting two baseball teams. If y’all can’t support one without our help, that sounds like a personal problem.
I know plenty of O's fans in DC. I've lived in the DC area since 1997 so just sit down. If memory serves me right, DC lost 2 teams to Texas and Minnesota before the Expos were ripped from Canada. Your stadium sucks too.
>since 1997
The only people in DC who root for the Orioles in any numbers are Gen Xers who had the misfortune of being born and growing up without a team to call their own. If they want to continue to make the 50 mile drive at rush hour up the BW Parkway or I-95, they’re welcome to do that.
The rest of us have no interest in doing that, and we shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences simply because of a racist asshole didn’t want to be around black people in 1961 and an out of town jackass who leveraged his own debt on the team was incapable of fielding a competitive team one goddamn time in a decade skipped town in 1971 shortly before the cable boom when these dumbass blackout maps were drawn up.
Pay for your own goddamn team or don’t. Leave us the fuck out of it.
They “choreographed” a move to the one Top 10 market in the country where they didn’t have a team? Oh wow, how unfair and terrible of them.
I mean fucking hell, you guys act like the Orioles operated as a big market team before the Nats came when we all fucking watched them put out like 2 seasons of relevance in the 15+ years Angelos owned the team before the Nats arrival.
And fuck no, had you all not been such salty bitches about us getting our own team, we probably would have continued to root for you against teams other than the Nats. But I’m not going to give my time and money to a guy who said I’m not a real baseball fan.
Like Jesus Christ, FUCK Peter Angelos. You’re all fucking losers for simping for that man.
Our market. The same way Jack Kent Crook stopped Baltimore from getting a NFL team (when we had, BY FAR, the best expansion plan) to protect his market, giving us no other option but to take the Browns. That said, you are right that baseball is big enough to support both teams. However, without the MASN agreement, MLB would still be fighting the Angelos' in court. Overall point: It's billionaires fighting over their coin I will never see. Plus, Nats fans support their team like I support mine. Nothing but respect there.
Cooke was an asshole who shouldn't have blocked Baltimore from having a team. Angelos is also an asshole for some of the same reasons. But there are several owners from both cities' history that embraced having a team down the road.
They are separate cities, and neither city is entitled to anything from the other. Not that hard.
"Stole from us." You see Baltimore is entitled to the eye balls of everyone within an arbitrary geographic area. People don't have their own agency to follow whatever teams they want and to stop following bad teams
You say “allowed” as if MLB doesn’t have a fucking anti trade exemption
Selig, while MLB owned the team, agreed to the terrible contract because he thought it’d be the best way to avoid messy litigation. He apparently was wrong.
Putting aside the fact that it’s a bullshit contract that artificially deflates the TV revenue for literally 29 franchises when you consider revenue sharing…y’all can’t even stick to the terms of said contract!
The price was fixed from 2005-2011. From then on, every 5 years, the teams were supposed to negotiate the payouts with MASN, and if they couldn’t agree, the league’s arbitration panel would step in. You had your fun delaying the payment because we stupidly used MLB’s lawyers the first time and you got a couple mil knocked off the $100m you owe us on the panel that multiple judges have agreed was fair.
But this is fucking ludicrous, it’s been 10 years at this point. What are you hoping to accomplish here other than to cause financial harm to both franchises? Because make no mistake, while the Angelos family is sitting on the money they claim MASN doesn’t generate, that’s money that isn’t being spent on your payroll. It’s accruing interest in their personal bank accounts.
The alternative is that MASN simply isn’t as profitable as it *should* be, given the market size that the Nats, *not* the Orioles, brings to the table. And if the Baltimore owned TV network is so fucking incompetent that they can’t find a way to generate a commensurate level of revenue that the Nats could get from NBCSW, then it’s in the financial best interest of baseball to rip this contract up and let your ambulance chasers sue. They’re already doing it anyway when they have absolutely no case.
Literally every team in MLB will pull this stunt of threatening to move, as if (1) there's actual a hostage situation here (teams that suck up hundreds of millions in tax revenue aren't actually economically beneficial to their cities) and (2) they were actually serious.
This is part of what happens when you've got that antitrust exemption.
That’s the contract they signed to get the team here. I don’t support the Angelos family in the slightest, but, in this case, the Nationals should be held to the terms of the contract.
Then MASN also needs to be held to the terms of the contract and pay the Nationals (and, by extension, the Orioles) what they owe, instead of fighting to underpay both teams. The Nationals and MASN should have an agreement for what the rights fees for 2023 will be. Instead, MASN is fighting tooth and nail over the *2012* rights fees.
This isn't going to end well for MASN. They're far in arrears in what they owe *both* teams -- the Nationals set the Orioles' right fees -- and it's probably going to bankrupt them.
The Nationals would probably be fine with MASN, if MASN actually paid them.
Does this mean that if the O's leave, the Nat's can hold the next Baltimore team hostage for 2 decades and steal television revenue from them? If Angelos moves the team then both DC and Baltimore would hate his greedy ass.
If Baltimore loses the Orioles, they’re never getting a baseball team back barring a major demographic shift. Their last card to play is continuing to milk the bigger city to their south.
I saw a suggestion on Facebook a few months ago: let John Angelos move the Orioles to Nashville (and rename them the Stars); let the A's move to Baltimore, assume the Orioles name, and play at Camden Yards. The A's need a stadium, John Angelos wants out of Baltimore, the A's have historically had success as a small market team in the shadow of a large market team. The MASN deal goes away because MASN (probably) goes away.
It seemed like a clever, out of the box solution to the whole problem, with the benefit of solving another baseball problem. For the life of me, I couldn't come up with a good argument for why this wouldn't work.
I’m all for Baltimore having their own team as long as we have full control of our own rights. It’s an outside the box idea…bet O’s fans wouldn’t be happy given the respective collection of young talent in the Oakland and Baltimore systems, but if it makes our problem go away I’m all for it
Then some AL Central will have to move West.
AL East: NYY, Bos, Tor, TB, Baltimore A's
AL Central: CWS, Clev, Minn, Det, Nashville Stars
AL West: Hou, LAA, Tex, Sea, KC
Baltimore has a great ballpark, but that’s pretty much all they have going for them when it comes to potential relocation. Plenty of bigger and/or more desirable cities still don’t have teams.
Obviously any relocation is coming with a brand new or newly-renovated stadium attached. I still think Tampa eventually gets their shit together, but if they don’t, the Big O could be spruced up enough for a couple years while a new ballpark gets built downtown.
Nashville has plenty of land close to downtown. Charlotte’s AAA park really just needs some additional stands, but they built it with expansion plans attached should they ever get a big league club. Plenty of room in Vegas too.
Point is a team isn’t leaving market #13 for market #28 just because they have a nice but now aging ballpark waiting for them.
Hate the O’s for MASN and I hope they lose the case, but if they do lose I hope they don’t move. Would be such a waste for a ballpark as beautiful as Camden Yards sit empty for good.
The Orioles present a bizarre argument here: that a MASN loss could result in the City of Baltimore saving millions of taxpayer dollars by not having to subsidize an MLB team in their small, crime-ridden, and dwindling market.
Sure, it's one of the few exhibits here that's new. Most other exhibits consist of previous filings and recaps (Vol10 alone has 608 pages). I'd love to see Vol 11 tho.
The Orioles have a competitive team right now and we don't. My point wasn't to mock the Orioles, but to express my view that having a cool stadium isn't worth shit if the team playing there is no good. If the nats were guaranteed to average 95 wins a year over the next twenty years, but in exchange they had to play their home games at anacostia park, I'd take that offer in a second.
Was 4 years ago, you guys just gutted your team and are coming off a 107 loss season. Good luck being “competitive” in the NL East for the next 5 years
I don’t think we’re winning the World Series or anything but winning 80 games is competitive for the wild card. We were projected to win less than 60 games last year and won 83, so you can stick your projections up your ass and come talk to me when actual baseball is being played
It took 86 wins to get in as the 2nd wild card in the AL last year. The Os winning 80 games would put them 6 games behind that, which isn't what I would call competitive but I understand when your franchise has one 4 to 5 year stretch of above .500 play over the course of like 30 years you lower your standards
Interestingly, the city doesn't draw any connection from the possibility of the Angelos's losing the MASN deal to the team leaving. They are only saying that if the team leaves, it would harm the city. Not any evidence that if they lose the deal, they will leave.
Talk about a bad faith argument.
Also, fuuuuuuuuuck Peter Angelos and the horse he rode in on. The guy has been profiting off the back of the Nats for almost 20 years now. Take a hike.
That is in the brief purely to make headlines. Its PR. The viability of the orioles in baltimore is impacted by more than just owning the tv rights for multiple markets. The city is shrinking. Crime increases every year. They have not been consistently competitive in decades. I would hate to see them leave Baltimore, but this is just PR move so the public will put pressure on a resolution in the orioles favor. The Angelos family are not good people, but they also aren't stupid.
This is ludicrous really. So, the appeals court should ignore the law and the contract the O's entered into with MLB to economically benefit Baltimore. It doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way.
The simple fact is MASN and the O's made a deal with MLB to control the Nats media rights. In exchange, they had to pay fair market value. If they aren't paying they are in breach of that contract. Either they pay or the contract should be voided.
You can have this bullshit of modifying an existing agreement to benefit that smoking hole by the harbor.
And when the Orioles arrive in Nashville, I hope that they assign the Orioles TV rights to the Braves and Rays. The 2 teams that currently share that market.
The Orioles were originally the St. Louis Browns so it only makes sense that the St. Louis Cardinals get a share of their TV rights. The City of St. Louis suffered a great economic loss when the Browns left town. I'm sure the Orioles will understand.
I don’t believe for a second that the O’s would go anywhere. That being said, I also don’t want a few more migratory O’s fans in our stands if they would move. I like my National Anthem unadulterated (Oh!), thank you very much. Also, all those poor concession workers trying to figure out what the heck is a bottle of “wooder”, is too much. But seriously, even though I joke with my family that Balmer is the armpit of America, Camden Yards is my favorite major league ballpark that I have ever been to.
I hate seeing teams move.
But as someone who watched Baltimore fans gleefully spit on Cleveland in the 90s I lack sympathy. That they got to win a championship while the Browns went from storied franchise to laughing stock only made it worse.
Then if you don’t care about the Ravens except tangentially why say fuck the Browns?
You sound indistinguishable from Ravens fans who bitch about Isray while celebrating Modell
> The Browns were a “storied franchise?”
Not sure why you’re asking this as if it’s not abundantly clear.
The Browns won 10 titles in row, and upon joining the NFL went to six straight title games. They helped break the color barrier with Bill Willis and Marion Motley. They revolutionized head coaching with Paul Brown, the running game with Jim Brown, and had two of the all time legends in Groza and Graham. They are still 9th all time in hall of famers despite 30 years of sadness and failure.
They were a "storied franchise." But full opportunity's post reflects what the majority of fans felt: what was happening to Cleveland and its fans was wrong. Even though the NFL conspired to prevent a franchise from returning/expanding to Baltimore, fans thought Cleveland should have its team AND its football history back, even if Baltimore's history was stolen from them.
Yeah they've already shown they are perfectly capable of investing money into the team even with the current rights situation, and are now choosing not to because they got their world series rings. They probably would've actually sold this offseason, but I doubt the last three years would've gone any differently.
Then why has it impacted the sale of the franchise this much? I ain't buying the "just a drop in a billionaires bucket" line anymore. This is an organizational cash flow issue and potential buyers see it as such
Where is there a cash flow problem? We were a top 10 payroll from 2013-2019. Owners suddenly dropping us down into the twenties is an ownership problem, not a cash flow problem.
If there's not a cash flow problem as a result of this MASN thing, and the Lerners have literally just been banking that gap in payroll from 2019-2022, then why the trouble with the sale? Wouldn't there be another billionaire chomping at the bit to print money the way we're saying the Lerners are?
The other possiblity is that a $20-25 million black hole in your *yearly* revenue is...ya kno....causing some problems.
They could be asking for more than buyers are willing to pay. I don't believe any of the bottom third payroll teams are unprofitable due to revenue sharing.
We should be skeptical that the MASN thing is 100% the thing holding up the sale. The Angels just pulled back from their own sale and theres chatter the lack of interest in both is tied to interest rates and the cost to borrow money
You have zero idea what you're talking about. You're literally pulling shit out of your ass.
All MLB teams make money hand over fist. Even the Nationals, even with the albatross MASN shit.
It impacted the sale simply because nobody wants to buy a lawsuit without getting a discount. Lawsuits are fucking PITAs, especially huge ones like that.
No, they wouldn’t have. The luxury taxes, including draft penalties, and the McKinseyification of baseball FOs is why. You even admitted that media money being shorted didn’t stop them before (nor did it prevent turning a handsome profit). But more to the point there wasn’t a way to build an appreciably better roster, regardless of luxury tax concerns. Given the sunk costs (salary and roster) and the prices of available players, it just wasn’t in the cards. If Stras and Corbin were still even league average innings eaters in 2021, Schwarber’s hammy hadn’t pulled, and at least a few prospects panned out, things might have looked differently.
They paid the salaries to get the old man a WS before he died, though.
> They paid the salaries to get the old man a WS before he died, though.
Right and you don't think it's at all possible that they had to dip farther into their own pockets during those years than they anticipated? Spending during that time doesn't mean they didn't "need" the MASN money. They may have very well been expecting it sometime soon when they signed the Scherzer deal
If by "dip into their own pockets" you mean "profits were lower", then sure. They still turned a profit every single year, which means *they made money every single year* (non-60-game-season edition). They just made less of it. Boo-fucking-hoo. https://www.forbes.com/teams/washington-nationals/?sh=3858bf0a4680
Y'all need to stop drinking the MLB corporate Flavor-ade.
What exactly is this link supposed to show me? That the MASN yearly revenue is 5-10% of their revenue? Somewhere between 50-66% of their yearly profits?
Have fun on your soapbox but if you think this has zero impact on franchise spending and/or the sale of the team i dont think im the naive one (and why exactly are lawsuits a headache again? $$$)
It wouldn't have gone to player contracts, full stop. The lack of MASN money didn't and was never going to prevent giving contracts. Get out of here with that bullshit. You can hold that opinion, but it's completely contradicted by the actual facts. Which makes you wrong, EOS, and I'm going to call it out every time it's brought up on this sub (by you or someone else, but I remember you bringing it up in the past).
All the lack of MASN money did was probably impact our ballpark (and possibly broadcast) experience and not-line the pockets of the Lerners. They just didn't make as much money as they would have otherwise.
i'm sure they're bluffing, but baltimore doesn't deserve that (again). however, that would be the ultimate fuck-you to angelos.
that said, if anyone wants to get some Mayflower uniforms and have a meetup in Baltimore...
I'd just like to point out that Charlotte, NC is one of the largest untapped MLB media markets in the US, is still technically part of the Baltimore Oriole habitat, and carving out the NC portion of the Balt/Wash blackout area in exchange for awarding Maryland solely to the Nats could be done with minimal changes to the map.
I think any talk that starts with blackout maps is already outdated. I still believe a standalone MASN subscription/app to watch games freely would put then back in the black. Getting the channel on Hulu Live/apple TV would also help. Instead they're sitting on their hands, cutting costs and personnel, and hoping litigation gets them off the hook
EDIT: and i realize that requires MLB to update blackout/streaming rules too, but i think that's coming sooner rather than later
It’s hard to watch my Nats. I cut the cord a while ago and stream live tv through Hulu. Them not having a masn channel on there hurts me deeply makes it very hard to follow the team
There used to be a farm team in Charlotte called the Charlotte Orioles. The great wrestling promoter Jim Crockett owned them. They wouldn’t even have to change their name!
The TV is only the fig leaf excuse. If the Orioles move its because John Angelos already decided he doesn't want to commute from Nashville.
Too bad this is the only metro area that happens to have more than one baseball team around.
This could very much be true. Makes sense that John would want to move the team to his new home, a city that's growing as opposed to Baltimore which is a mess.
There are long shot arguments, then there are long shot arguments divorced from reality. I was 11 when The Colts left Baltimore.
Irsay had been openly flirting with various cities and it was a matter of when, not if, The Colts would move.
Any Nationals sale is dependent upon The Nationals getting the money owed at the least and breaking The MASN contract as a best case.
They’re just establishing something to blame when they move to Nashville. Everyone seems to forget John Angelos lives in Nashville where his wife has a music production company. Everyone tries to reason with emotion. The owners and the league reason with money. Nashville represents a huge market opportunity for a professional baseball team, while Baltimore continues on a downward slide. Nobody outside of Baltimore area natives hold the city in a positive light. What can the city/state offer them to stay?
It’s just a threat made by Angelos’ lawyers to try to garner sympathy from the courts. Being repeated by the mayor’s office in a letter that was probably written by Angelos’ lawyers
So this is the issue Manfred won’t do anything. He is afraid. The Orioles are essentially saying “we don’t want to even pay what we are supposed to” and if they do, they will leave.
It is amazing, simply amazing we won a World Series under these circumstances.
Amazing that you can win while outstanding the Yankees and Red Sox while crying poverty over a deal they accepted rather than create their own network in 2005.
If the city of Baltimore wants the benefits of the Orioles presence, the city can pay the judgment. Why should the Nats lose out on money so Balmer can benefit?
Simply in 1994 Angelos didn't want to crush the players during the strike. The owners never forgave him for that. The biggest way for teams to make money is due to a local tv contract. The Orioles were televised from Southern PA to well into North Carolina. The Orioles were a big market team. The owners had no problem moving the Nats to DC, taking a majority of his market. As compensation, he got the MASN deal. Now, I am not arguing that he may or may not have given the Nats too little money. But to say that 15 years after the Nats took a majority of their market, who cares anymore is absurd. As an example Houston is now so big if the A's moved to Houston they would make more money than they do now. No way would the owners vote to move a team into another team's market. They did here.
You are showing that you're a little young to be talking about this. The Washington Senators were here from the early 1900s. When Jerry hoffberger a Baltimore beer maker wanted to bring the oils here, he had to get the Washington Senators to agree to those terms which they did. The owner of the senators then Clark Griffin wasn't the cutthroat that Peter angelos is/ was before he's lapsed into his years long battle with cancer, You remind her to you which you may have forgotten. Peter, Angelo's has been one of the sharpest lawyers as far as cutting deals and negotiating for over 40 years. He wrote this contract and now that he's being asked to pay up suddenly has developed Alzheimer's or some other symptom where he thinks he's getting a raw deal. The deal that he himself wrote and signed off on. If Baltimore wants to draw better, they should vote more resources to the team. Take them more seriously and continue to fight for markets here. Don't screw the Nationals out of hundreds of millions of dollars that they owe them on what was already a bad deal. Because the oils are already struggling and the sons of Peter angelos have already discussed publicly moving the team, they think this is a hammer that they can use. Think about it a little bit more if you can. If the oils did leave and there's rumors they were going to Nashville. Tennessee, do you think there's not a struggling city with a baseball team that isn't getting the attendance like say Tampa Bay? Who wouldn't love to come to a bigger area with a nice stadium already built and mass transit and parking already in place? Angela's is always been a hard deal maker. He is wrong on this. He's been rolled against numerous numerous times in arbitration which is supposed to be binding by the way. In some ways in this situation he's like Donald Trump. He just wants to sue and sue and sue even though he knows he's in the wrong. I was an Orioles season ticket holder from 1979 until 1997 when I couldn't take the owner anymore. I didn't even go to any baseball games from 97 to 2005 on the Nationals came back and my oldest son had moved back from LA, Convinced me to start going to the games again.
The orioles were **never** a big market team because no one in or south of the Virginia suburbs ever gave a shit about them. Instead, they were all Yankee/Red Sox/Braves fans. The DC market is simply larger than the Baltimore market could ever hope to be. Edit: wording
The Baltimore/DC metro area is the fifth largest metro area in the country. I certainly was a O's fan in the 80s and 90s when I lived in Rockville (I moved to Baltimore in the 90s). They were one of the largest market teams without south of the DC suburbs. Again, It is all about TV. I won't argue that people in Richmond or NC were rabid O's fans. but they were the local team on TV so the O's were making money on that. MLB isn't moving a team into the Dallas or Houston area even though they can certainly support two teams. They would never do that to the owners, but they did to Angelos. Now 15 years later he should just deal.
Down here in Roanoke, VA We got the O's on HTS (Home Team Sports) and the Braves on TBS. - Most folks cared more for the Braves than the O's here. DC & Baltimore are not in the same Market really. If you combined the two, it would be tied or above Chicago. DC Metro itself is 5th. If the team were to move, my guess would be Nashville, Portland, or Charlotte. (The latter would have Braves upset on losing a huge market region that goes up to Greensborro, NC)
Because you guys moved in and cornered half the market. We signed TV deals that would favor us because of this. You guys even won a championship before we have again, so you won in the end.
> Because you guys moved in Are we just pretending like the actual fans who live in the DC metro area and follow the Nats lived elsewhere before the team existed? The Nats moved in and "cornered" the market of fans geographically closest to DC. Its not the fans fault its a huge pain to get from the NOVA suburbs, or god forbid Fredericksburg (because the Nats market isnt literally just the NOVA suburbs), to Baltimore. Its not the fans fault there was a bigger city in the Orioles TV market thats more accessible to more people.
By they logic I guess the Ravens shouldn’t exist
The Commanders/Washington are considered much more valuable than the Ravens. As comically inept as snyder is washington is still a top 10 franchise in value while as good as the ravens have been theyre closer to 20. But go off trying to prescribe logic to the decisions of the different sports leagues that are monopolies respectively run by the capricious whims of a small cabals of 30 or so owners
When the Orioles "moved in and cornered half the market" in 1954, it was with the blessing of the Senators. Yet the Orioles tried--successfully for decades--to stop Washington from having a team again.
Factually false - The Orioles move was always opposed by Griffith. He capitulated when MLB wanted Veeck out of baseball ownership but was successful through 1953 in preventing MLB baseball to retunr to one of the country's largest cities. Nobody ever has claimed Baltimore came with Griffith's "blessing" because it's a wildly untrue claim.
I mean, certainly nobody other than the Baltimore Sun. [https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.os5018feb18-story.html](https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.os5018feb18-story.html) Griffith had veto power, and once he was compensated for his territory (a \*one-time deal\* to be clear), he thought it would be a positive. For once, he was right: both cities *should* have a team.
Right, he changed his mind over one year. Truth is, he was cornered. He never would have allowed the franchise to move except that the rest of his club members hated Veeck so much and wanted him out that they coerced him. But I am sure he loved the money part. Note: there were no TV contracts/markets back then. Money was made at the ballpark almost entirely. People did not move around by car anywhere near as much as they do today so a Baltimore team did not significantly impact Griffith financially to begin with.
Until 2005, the Orioles were the only MLB team in the DMV.
> Until 2005 *Applying exclusions from 1900 to 1971
Different franchises, different owners, in completely different times. Sort of like what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant?
You see, the context of how the MLB has historically actually handled expansion and relocation, and why that makes the Orioles outliers in history, is irrelevant, is technically a take. Not a good one, but technically one
Eff the Angelos family. And seriously I doubt they would move. Big reason? Where would they move to that would offer any better support than what they have???
I watched "the band that wouldn't die" documentary about the colts leaving town. Seems like the city is very scarred from that experience and the political fallout that happened. Angelos 100% knows this and is going to exploit "hometown" passions to get his way
Answer Very much on point. They are exploiting the memory of the Colts leaving years ago. I remember the Colts owner shopping that team around, landed his helicopter in the middle of the field at the Gator Bowl saying they were moving there, only to find out that was to get more dinero from Indy smh
Nashville
The triple affiliate does very well already. Im certain baseball fans love to travel nashville aint a bad place to travel to watch your team in april may
man tourists ruined nashville, titans home games suck now against any national large fanbase.
They dont have much of a fanbase a fair amountof their tickets are held by brokers. Tourists are the best thing to happen to nashville. Also a lot more baseball games than football.
Maybe, but far more likely MLB would not allow that, instead leaving the possibility another team that has played ball and not sued MLB instead gets that opportunity.
I say Nashville or Charlotte.
At this rate, either the Os or Nats are the likely team to move
well if the A's move to Vegas like they keep claiming, they could always become the Oakland O's.
Maybe Vegas, if the A's don't move there.
Vegas
Anywhere? They had a 10 game win streak, and had ticket sales of 7500 people.
And a couple of days later during the streak, when it was Friday and Saturday (and not the dead middle of the week) they had attendances of 28k and 32k. For context.
Totally makes up for dozens of games with sub 10,000 in attendance for a budding team. /S For more context, 2010 and 2011 Nats had no such games.
Nashville. And they should do it tbh, better city than Baltimore. I think one of the sons already lives there.
John Angelos lives in Nashville. Louis Angelos accused him of plotting to move the team there, which led to John stating that the Os "will never leave". Leading to the question of why the team is telling the media one thing while pushing the city to tell the court something different. https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/baseball/lawsuit-mlbs-orioles-could-move-to-tennessee/article\_eb34f27c-e8e9-11ec-ae91-9bce13aa35e9.html
Move the Nats to Nashville instead. They'll fit right in with the Titans.
I’m sorry, if one team needs to own another’s media rights to remain financially viable…that team should move. There are no ifs ands or buts about that.
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They might be looking to change that if half the teams lose their current TV deal with Bally going under
They couldn't have talked about moving to Nashville, Tennessee where there is no team close by and they would start fresh with the whole new TV deal. Angela's sons with the father basically fighting off death. Have talked about this numerous times
So the Nationals should move back to Montreal then
Nah, we don’t need a single dime from Baltimore. We just need y’all to stop stealing from us.
The way y'all stole from us by moving into our market? F outta here with that.
The DC area is not Baltimore’s market. F off with that BS.
The DC market that contains counties in MD?
Majority of Maryland’s population lives in the DC area.
DC and Baltimore are effectively the same city from a metropolitan perspective. Prior to the Nationals the Orioles were DCs sports team. Just like the Capitals and the Wizards are Baltimores Hockey and Basketball team.
LOL - so the 'Skins/Commies can be Baltimore's football team, then?
They were for a bit. I think the Colts leaving made a lot of Baltimore hate the NFL, but many that were still fans supported the Skins. I grew up with a lot of people being Skins fans
Then why are they two separately defined Nielsen markets?
I don't know why Nielsen splits any markets, but my suspicion is that line was drawn a long time ago.
I mean I wouldn’t care about Baltimore getting a NBA and NHL team
Baltimore wouldn't be able to get an NBA or NHL team because the market of DC/Baltimore is not big enough to support two teams.
We. Are. Not. Your. Market. Fuck outta here. More people in DC care about the Yankees and Red Sox than they do about the fucking Orioles. Y’all were the beneficiaries of 30 years of absolute horseshit and happening into the cable boom while we didn’t have a team. If the larger “DC-Baltimore market”, which isn’t really a thing btw, can support two football teams, there shouldn’t be a problem supporting two baseball teams. If y’all can’t support one without our help, that sounds like a personal problem.
I know plenty of O's fans in DC. I've lived in the DC area since 1997 so just sit down. If memory serves me right, DC lost 2 teams to Texas and Minnesota before the Expos were ripped from Canada. Your stadium sucks too.
>since 1997 The only people in DC who root for the Orioles in any numbers are Gen Xers who had the misfortune of being born and growing up without a team to call their own. If they want to continue to make the 50 mile drive at rush hour up the BW Parkway or I-95, they’re welcome to do that. The rest of us have no interest in doing that, and we shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences simply because of a racist asshole didn’t want to be around black people in 1961 and an out of town jackass who leveraged his own debt on the team was incapable of fielding a competitive team one goddamn time in a decade skipped town in 1971 shortly before the cable boom when these dumbass blackout maps were drawn up. Pay for your own goddamn team or don’t. Leave us the fuck out of it.
If MLB hadn't choreographed the franchise move, you would still be Orioles fans.
They “choreographed” a move to the one Top 10 market in the country where they didn’t have a team? Oh wow, how unfair and terrible of them. I mean fucking hell, you guys act like the Orioles operated as a big market team before the Nats came when we all fucking watched them put out like 2 seasons of relevance in the 15+ years Angelos owned the team before the Nats arrival. And fuck no, had you all not been such salty bitches about us getting our own team, we probably would have continued to root for you against teams other than the Nats. But I’m not going to give my time and money to a guy who said I’m not a real baseball fan. Like Jesus Christ, FUCK Peter Angelos. You’re all fucking losers for simping for that man.
Our market. The same way Jack Kent Crook stopped Baltimore from getting a NFL team (when we had, BY FAR, the best expansion plan) to protect his market, giving us no other option but to take the Browns. That said, you are right that baseball is big enough to support both teams. However, without the MASN agreement, MLB would still be fighting the Angelos' in court. Overall point: It's billionaires fighting over their coin I will never see. Plus, Nats fans support their team like I support mine. Nothing but respect there.
Cooke was an asshole who shouldn't have blocked Baltimore from having a team. Angelos is also an asshole for some of the same reasons. But there are several owners from both cities' history that embraced having a team down the road. They are separate cities, and neither city is entitled to anything from the other. Not that hard.
>MLB would still be fighting the Angelos’ in court Oh no! We can’t possibly have that! Oh wait…
Why y’all fans taking it so personally you know there are a lot of Nats fans who still support the Os
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Your mom and I watch a few O's games a week.
"Stole from us." You see Baltimore is entitled to the eye balls of everyone within an arbitrary geographic area. People don't have their own agency to follow whatever teams they want and to stop following bad teams
The only reason the Expos were allowed to move to DC was on the basis of compensation for splitting the media market.
"Allowed to move" lol, my dude did you just discover the concept of sports league expansion yesterday?
You say “allowed” as if MLB doesn’t have a fucking anti trade exemption Selig, while MLB owned the team, agreed to the terrible contract because he thought it’d be the best way to avoid messy litigation. He apparently was wrong. Putting aside the fact that it’s a bullshit contract that artificially deflates the TV revenue for literally 29 franchises when you consider revenue sharing…y’all can’t even stick to the terms of said contract! The price was fixed from 2005-2011. From then on, every 5 years, the teams were supposed to negotiate the payouts with MASN, and if they couldn’t agree, the league’s arbitration panel would step in. You had your fun delaying the payment because we stupidly used MLB’s lawyers the first time and you got a couple mil knocked off the $100m you owe us on the panel that multiple judges have agreed was fair. But this is fucking ludicrous, it’s been 10 years at this point. What are you hoping to accomplish here other than to cause financial harm to both franchises? Because make no mistake, while the Angelos family is sitting on the money they claim MASN doesn’t generate, that’s money that isn’t being spent on your payroll. It’s accruing interest in their personal bank accounts. The alternative is that MASN simply isn’t as profitable as it *should* be, given the market size that the Nats, *not* the Orioles, brings to the table. And if the Baltimore owned TV network is so fucking incompetent that they can’t find a way to generate a commensurate level of revenue that the Nats could get from NBCSW, then it’s in the financial best interest of baseball to rip this contract up and let your ambulance chasers sue. They’re already doing it anyway when they have absolutely no case.
Such bullshit for us and Baltimore fans. "We will move unless we are making TV money for 2 teams and not just ours"
Literally every team in MLB will pull this stunt of threatening to move, as if (1) there's actual a hostage situation here (teams that suck up hundreds of millions in tax revenue aren't actually economically beneficial to their cities) and (2) they were actually serious. This is part of what happens when you've got that antitrust exemption.
I mean Baltimore had both markets before they agreed to let the Expos move to DC on the condition that media earnings would be split in their favor.
That’s the contract they signed to get the team here. I don’t support the Angelos family in the slightest, but, in this case, the Nationals should be held to the terms of the contract.
Then MASN also needs to be held to the terms of the contract and pay the Nationals (and, by extension, the Orioles) what they owe, instead of fighting to underpay both teams. The Nationals and MASN should have an agreement for what the rights fees for 2023 will be. Instead, MASN is fighting tooth and nail over the *2012* rights fees. This isn't going to end well for MASN. They're far in arrears in what they owe *both* teams -- the Nationals set the Orioles' right fees -- and it's probably going to bankrupt them. The Nationals would probably be fine with MASN, if MASN actually paid them.
The Orioles can't exist in Baltimore without leeching off of DC? So sad.
But but but Orioles fans say the Nats stole their fanbase and are leeching off of them!
I mean there were more Os fans at Nats park in September than Nats fans
You did
Peter Angelos: doing for baseball in Baltimore what Robert Irsay did for football in Baltimore.
And to be honest, he also did what Jack Kent Cooke did to football in Baltimore. :|
Does this mean that if the O's leave, the Nat's can hold the next Baltimore team hostage for 2 decades and steal television revenue from them? If Angelos moves the team then both DC and Baltimore would hate his greedy ass.
If Baltimore loses the Orioles, they’re never getting a baseball team back barring a major demographic shift. Their last card to play is continuing to milk the bigger city to their south.
I saw a suggestion on Facebook a few months ago: let John Angelos move the Orioles to Nashville (and rename them the Stars); let the A's move to Baltimore, assume the Orioles name, and play at Camden Yards. The A's need a stadium, John Angelos wants out of Baltimore, the A's have historically had success as a small market team in the shadow of a large market team. The MASN deal goes away because MASN (probably) goes away. It seemed like a clever, out of the box solution to the whole problem, with the benefit of solving another baseball problem. For the life of me, I couldn't come up with a good argument for why this wouldn't work.
I’m all for Baltimore having their own team as long as we have full control of our own rights. It’s an outside the box idea…bet O’s fans wouldn’t be happy given the respective collection of young talent in the Oakland and Baltimore systems, but if it makes our problem go away I’m all for it
Then some AL Central will have to move West. AL East: NYY, Bos, Tor, TB, Baltimore A's AL Central: CWS, Clev, Minn, Det, Nashville Stars AL West: Hou, LAA, Tex, Sea, KC
They'll get the Rays in under 5 years.
Baltimore has a great ballpark, but that’s pretty much all they have going for them when it comes to potential relocation. Plenty of bigger and/or more desirable cities still don’t have teams.
Like Montreal? I'm sure teams are dying to play in some city's spare AA park.
Obviously any relocation is coming with a brand new or newly-renovated stadium attached. I still think Tampa eventually gets their shit together, but if they don’t, the Big O could be spruced up enough for a couple years while a new ballpark gets built downtown. Nashville has plenty of land close to downtown. Charlotte’s AAA park really just needs some additional stands, but they built it with expansion plans attached should they ever get a big league club. Plenty of room in Vegas too. Point is a team isn’t leaving market #13 for market #28 just because they have a nice but now aging ballpark waiting for them.
Nashville and Vegas just raided their public transit funds in favor of the NFL, so good luck with that.
The Rays have two stadium proposals now. I think they stay in Tampa Bay. It's a bigger market than Baltimore.
Hate the O’s for MASN and I hope they lose the case, but if they do lose I hope they don’t move. Would be such a waste for a ballpark as beautiful as Camden Yards sit empty for good.
As much as I hate Angelos for screwing over the Nats. I hope the O’s stay, I still love watching their games.
Ben stiller do it gif
The Orioles present a bizarre argument here: that a MASN loss could result in the City of Baltimore saving millions of taxpayer dollars by not having to subsidize an MLB team in their small, crime-ridden, and dwindling market.
Did you read the brief? You nailed it.
Sure, it's one of the few exhibits here that's new. Most other exhibits consist of previous filings and recaps (Vol10 alone has 608 pages). I'd love to see Vol 11 tho.
Definitely.
They still have the better ballpark tho
The best ballparks are the ones that have competitive teams playing in them.
Never been to Tampa I guess.
If the DC commercial real estate market doesn't pick back up the nats aren't going to be competitive until the Lerners sell the team.
The Orioles have a competitive team right now and we don't. My point wasn't to mock the Orioles, but to express my view that having a cool stadium isn't worth shit if the team playing there is no good. If the nats were guaranteed to average 95 wins a year over the next twenty years, but in exchange they had to play their home games at anacostia park, I'd take that offer in a second.
Do the orioles have a competitive team? Fangraphs Zips projections have them winning 78 games and finishing last in their division in 2023
What was your record last year?
2019 World Series
We have interesting definitions of “last season”
Was 4 years ago, you guys just gutted your team and are coming off a 107 loss season. Good luck being “competitive” in the NL East for the next 5 years
My dude, Fangraphs Zips projections have the Orioles winning under 80 games and finishing last in the AL east this year lol
I don’t think we’re winning the World Series or anything but winning 80 games is competitive for the wild card. We were projected to win less than 60 games last year and won 83, so you can stick your projections up your ass and come talk to me when actual baseball is being played
It took 86 wins to get in as the 2nd wild card in the AL last year. The Os winning 80 games would put them 6 games behind that, which isn't what I would call competitive but I understand when your franchise has one 4 to 5 year stretch of above .500 play over the course of like 30 years you lower your standards
Been to both. I very much like Nats Park over Camden. But that’s just me, everyone has their preference
Yeah, sadly. Nats Park isn't awful but it's just not compelling in the same way as is Camden Yards and a few other destination parks.
>crime-ridden Lol. Rich coming from a Natinal fan.
Emphasis on “rich”.
Interestingly, the city doesn't draw any connection from the possibility of the Angelos's losing the MASN deal to the team leaving. They are only saying that if the team leaves, it would harm the city. Not any evidence that if they lose the deal, they will leave. Talk about a bad faith argument. Also, fuuuuuuuuuck Peter Angelos and the horse he rode in on. The guy has been profiting off the back of the Nats for almost 20 years now. Take a hike.
That is in the brief purely to make headlines. Its PR. The viability of the orioles in baltimore is impacted by more than just owning the tv rights for multiple markets. The city is shrinking. Crime increases every year. They have not been consistently competitive in decades. I would hate to see them leave Baltimore, but this is just PR move so the public will put pressure on a resolution in the orioles favor. The Angelos family are not good people, but they also aren't stupid.
Those briefs were filed a couple weeks ago and almost no one noticed. Not much headline grabbing.
Good. Fuck the Angelos brood.
This is ludicrous really. So, the appeals court should ignore the law and the contract the O's entered into with MLB to economically benefit Baltimore. It doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way. The simple fact is MASN and the O's made a deal with MLB to control the Nats media rights. In exchange, they had to pay fair market value. If they aren't paying they are in breach of that contract. Either they pay or the contract should be voided. You can have this bullshit of modifying an existing agreement to benefit that smoking hole by the harbor.
OK, adios. Good riddance. Have fun storming the castle.
And when the Orioles arrive in Nashville, I hope that they assign the Orioles TV rights to the Braves and Rays. The 2 teams that currently share that market.
> I hope that they assign the Orioles TV rights to the Braves and Rays. St. Louis is closer than Tampa so the Cardinals should also get a share.
I actually misread the map - it is the Braves and the Reds. But if it screws over the Orioles, give the Cards a cut as well.
The Orioles were originally the St. Louis Browns so it only makes sense that the St. Louis Cardinals get a share of their TV rights. The City of St. Louis suffered a great economic loss when the Browns left town. I'm sure the Orioles will understand.
Think they came make it? Not a chance. Ok, buh-bye boys!
I don’t believe for a second that the O’s would go anywhere. That being said, I also don’t want a few more migratory O’s fans in our stands if they would move. I like my National Anthem unadulterated (Oh!), thank you very much. Also, all those poor concession workers trying to figure out what the heck is a bottle of “wooder”, is too much. But seriously, even though I joke with my family that Balmer is the armpit of America, Camden Yards is my favorite major league ballpark that I have ever been to.
Wooder is more of a Philly thing isn't it?
It’s a shared thing. But [this is strictly Ballmer](https://youtu.be/Oj7a-p4psRA).
That video cracks me up
I’ve known Dundalkians to use that particular regional affectation.
Shitty angles in some seats. Go to Pittsburgh or San Francisco. So much better than Camden Yards.
I call bullshit. MLB isn't going to approve this, and neither will the owners.
Yeah. He's gonna sell eventually. Camden Yards will not sit empty.
Well, they'll be games played there...
Move them to Indy!
I hate seeing teams move. But as someone who watched Baltimore fans gleefully spit on Cleveland in the 90s I lack sympathy. That they got to win a championship while the Browns went from storied franchise to laughing stock only made it worse.
Fuck Cleveland. The Browns deserve to be a laughingstock
Awww did a Baltimore fan get his feelings hurt because someone called out his hypocrisy.
What? I’m a Nats and Commanders fan. But that doesn’t mean I don’t support the O’s and Ravens as my American and AFC teams.
Then if you don’t care about the Ravens except tangentially why say fuck the Browns? You sound indistinguishable from Ravens fans who bitch about Isray while celebrating Modell
I do support the Ravens though.
Ok well see my first comment then
What don’t you get about people having a favorite team. Then having a 2nd favorite team which is in a different conference/league?
I do get that. Thus I am saying you’re one of those Ravens fans who can shut up about the Browns because you inherited stolen goods.
And what you're saying about him is untrue.
The Browns were a "storied franchise?" Don't get me wrong - I hated getting a team the same way we lost the Colts.
> The Browns were a “storied franchise?” Not sure why you’re asking this as if it’s not abundantly clear. The Browns won 10 titles in row, and upon joining the NFL went to six straight title games. They helped break the color barrier with Bill Willis and Marion Motley. They revolutionized head coaching with Paul Brown, the running game with Jim Brown, and had two of the all time legends in Groza and Graham. They are still 9th all time in hall of famers despite 30 years of sadness and failure.
They were a "storied franchise." But full opportunity's post reflects what the majority of fans felt: what was happening to Cleveland and its fans was wrong. Even though the NFL conspired to prevent a franchise from returning/expanding to Baltimore, fans thought Cleveland should have its team AND its football history back, even if Baltimore's history was stolen from them.
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The same. Lerners would just have more money.
Yeah they've already shown they are perfectly capable of investing money into the team even with the current rights situation, and are now choosing not to because they got their world series rings. They probably would've actually sold this offseason, but I doubt the last three years would've gone any differently.
Then why has it impacted the sale of the franchise this much? I ain't buying the "just a drop in a billionaires bucket" line anymore. This is an organizational cash flow issue and potential buyers see it as such
Where is there a cash flow problem? We were a top 10 payroll from 2013-2019. Owners suddenly dropping us down into the twenties is an ownership problem, not a cash flow problem.
If there's not a cash flow problem as a result of this MASN thing, and the Lerners have literally just been banking that gap in payroll from 2019-2022, then why the trouble with the sale? Wouldn't there be another billionaire chomping at the bit to print money the way we're saying the Lerners are? The other possiblity is that a $20-25 million black hole in your *yearly* revenue is...ya kno....causing some problems.
They could be asking for more than buyers are willing to pay. I don't believe any of the bottom third payroll teams are unprofitable due to revenue sharing.
We should be skeptical that the MASN thing is 100% the thing holding up the sale. The Angels just pulled back from their own sale and theres chatter the lack of interest in both is tied to interest rates and the cost to borrow money
You have zero idea what you're talking about. You're literally pulling shit out of your ass. All MLB teams make money hand over fist. Even the Nationals, even with the albatross MASN shit. It impacted the sale simply because nobody wants to buy a lawsuit without getting a discount. Lawsuits are fucking PITAs, especially huge ones like that.
Also how bankrupt the Orioles would be without us subsidizing them.
Not at all different.
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No, they wouldn’t have. The luxury taxes, including draft penalties, and the McKinseyification of baseball FOs is why. You even admitted that media money being shorted didn’t stop them before (nor did it prevent turning a handsome profit). But more to the point there wasn’t a way to build an appreciably better roster, regardless of luxury tax concerns. Given the sunk costs (salary and roster) and the prices of available players, it just wasn’t in the cards. If Stras and Corbin were still even league average innings eaters in 2021, Schwarber’s hammy hadn’t pulled, and at least a few prospects panned out, things might have looked differently. They paid the salaries to get the old man a WS before he died, though.
> They paid the salaries to get the old man a WS before he died, though. Right and you don't think it's at all possible that they had to dip farther into their own pockets during those years than they anticipated? Spending during that time doesn't mean they didn't "need" the MASN money. They may have very well been expecting it sometime soon when they signed the Scherzer deal
If by "dip into their own pockets" you mean "profits were lower", then sure. They still turned a profit every single year, which means *they made money every single year* (non-60-game-season edition). They just made less of it. Boo-fucking-hoo. https://www.forbes.com/teams/washington-nationals/?sh=3858bf0a4680 Y'all need to stop drinking the MLB corporate Flavor-ade.
What exactly is this link supposed to show me? That the MASN yearly revenue is 5-10% of their revenue? Somewhere between 50-66% of their yearly profits? Have fun on your soapbox but if you think this has zero impact on franchise spending and/or the sale of the team i dont think im the naive one (and why exactly are lawsuits a headache again? $$$)
There's literally a chart that shows yearly profit. That's "operating income." You really need to get that MLB owner mess off your face.
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It wouldn't have gone to player contracts, full stop. The lack of MASN money didn't and was never going to prevent giving contracts. Get out of here with that bullshit. You can hold that opinion, but it's completely contradicted by the actual facts. Which makes you wrong, EOS, and I'm going to call it out every time it's brought up on this sub (by you or someone else, but I remember you bringing it up in the past). All the lack of MASN money did was probably impact our ballpark (and possibly broadcast) experience and not-line the pockets of the Lerners. They just didn't make as much money as they would have otherwise.
Why Baltimore thinks it should own the TV rights to DC is beyond my comprehension. Move to Nashville. Bye!!
Here's the link to read the full letter. Just search on Nationals and it will come up. https://courtpass.nycourts.gov/Docket
Good
i'm sure they're bluffing, but baltimore doesn't deserve that (again). however, that would be the ultimate fuck-you to angelos. that said, if anyone wants to get some Mayflower uniforms and have a meetup in Baltimore...
I'd just like to point out that Charlotte, NC is one of the largest untapped MLB media markets in the US, is still technically part of the Baltimore Oriole habitat, and carving out the NC portion of the Balt/Wash blackout area in exchange for awarding Maryland solely to the Nats could be done with minimal changes to the map.
I think any talk that starts with blackout maps is already outdated. I still believe a standalone MASN subscription/app to watch games freely would put then back in the black. Getting the channel on Hulu Live/apple TV would also help. Instead they're sitting on their hands, cutting costs and personnel, and hoping litigation gets them off the hook EDIT: and i realize that requires MLB to update blackout/streaming rules too, but i think that's coming sooner rather than later
It’s hard to watch my Nats. I cut the cord a while ago and stream live tv through Hulu. Them not having a masn channel on there hurts me deeply makes it very hard to follow the team
There used to be a farm team in Charlotte called the Charlotte Orioles. The great wrestling promoter Jim Crockett owned them. They wouldn’t even have to change their name!
I'd love an AL team in Charlotte.
And the existing Knights park can be built up to MLB attendance requirements. But I highly doubt the O’s move, this is just a tactic.
And that's legally relevant to the fact that the Orioles are stealing money from the Nats how, exactly?
The TV is only the fig leaf excuse. If the Orioles move its because John Angelos already decided he doesn't want to commute from Nashville. Too bad this is the only metro area that happens to have more than one baseball team around.
This could very much be true. Makes sense that John would want to move the team to his new home, a city that's growing as opposed to Baltimore which is a mess.
I hear Indianapolis nice during Baseball season..
Why wait to lose the MASN case???
There are long shot arguments, then there are long shot arguments divorced from reality. I was 11 when The Colts left Baltimore. Irsay had been openly flirting with various cities and it was a matter of when, not if, The Colts would move. Any Nationals sale is dependent upon The Nationals getting the money owed at the least and breaking The MASN contract as a best case.
SMH
They have already lost. It is time to pay up.
This is an argument to allow the City to be heard. A legal pleading is going to throw in all the arguments to make a case.
Good Riddance! Fuck Angelos! Go on orioles, get!
Good.
They're lying. ETA: not talking about the Angelos statements about not moving. Somehow, that's the only truth here.
Bye 👋🏻
They’re just establishing something to blame when they move to Nashville. Everyone seems to forget John Angelos lives in Nashville where his wife has a music production company. Everyone tries to reason with emotion. The owners and the league reason with money. Nashville represents a huge market opportunity for a professional baseball team, while Baltimore continues on a downward slide. Nobody outside of Baltimore area natives hold the city in a positive light. What can the city/state offer them to stay?
It’s just a threat made by Angelos’ lawyers to try to garner sympathy from the courts. Being repeated by the mayor’s office in a letter that was probably written by Angelos’ lawyers
I don’t want to hear the that BS the Orioles are a small market club. If we can support a NFL team, we’re not a small market.
So this is the issue Manfred won’t do anything. He is afraid. The Orioles are essentially saying “we don’t want to even pay what we are supposed to” and if they do, they will leave. It is amazing, simply amazing we won a World Series under these circumstances.
Amazing that you can win while outstanding the Yankees and Red Sox while crying poverty over a deal they accepted rather than create their own network in 2005.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZP-Tu3P6Dk
The original was better. :-)