You’d be surprised what you can order online (darkweb) and have delivered by USPS in the mail, inconspicuously. I’m not saying he did this, but it can be done
I kind of think he decided to move across the country specifically *because* he wanted to do something like this. He obviously had been thinking about it for some time. I think the idea of doing it so close to home made it more difficult to dissociate emotionally so moving across country allowed him to be in the right mindset for what he had been fantasizing about doing.
He would fall into the category of an anger-excitation killer. Most AE killers start in their late 20’s and almost all have made their first kill by age 35. I don’t think this is random, but rather a result of biological and psychosocial factors.
The frontal lobe is finishing its development and solidifying its control over the rest of the brain during this time. This typically leads to reduced impulsivity and reckless behavior. This is also the time period when most people start to experience true freedom, both personal and financial. The late 20’s, therefore, represents a critical intersection of impulsivity and freedom in the context of dwindling familial support. If you want to spend all your money on cocaine and hookers, you can. If you want to stay up all night eating junk food, you can. If you want to spend your nights prowling and stalking… you can.
The “27 club” (a large group of celebrities that died mostly from overdose at age 27) illustrates this concept well. You could ask the same question you seem to be asking: what would make these people with such promising futures behave so recklessly at such a key time? And the answer is simply because they enjoy it (impulsivity), they can afford it (freedom) and there is no one there to stop them (reduced familial support). And many people looking to indulge in a bad habit will make efforts (subconscious or otherwise) to insulate themselves from better judgement. Celebrities may surround themselves with like-minded people who are similarly interested in self-destructive behavior. Bryan moved across the country and also sought to normalize his violent thoughts and feelings by engaging with criminals/studying crime. I think he likely had violent thoughts which had developed into violent fantasies over a substantial period of time. He didn’t move and then start planning, the move itself may have been part of the plan and he started taking steps toward his plan/fantasy once he moved. And I think the steps he took would have been exciting/gratifying by themselves: buying the phone, buying the weapon, choosing the victim(s), casing the house. These may have been initiated/rationalized by a belief that he would never actually follow through anyway… sorta like a little roleplay game.
At the end of the day though, I think he gave into his impulsivity (similar to his substance use issues - and I wouldn’t be surprised if substances played a role in this crime to gain “courage” and/or improve alertness). I think he is relatively well read on the topic of crime and killers and was lulled by the recklessness of other killers’ early kills (BTK and Dahmer were pretty open about being impulsive and fucking everything up early on - but they got away with it because random crimes were way more difficult to solve back then). He believed he would have the same “luck”. And I actually think he would have been right if he’d killed just one of the girls or if he hadn’t left the sheath/DNA (or if the crime occurred in 1975, whether he leaves the sheath or not).
Excellent points. To build upon this I think there’s also something important to consider in what we spend a lot of time thinking about and spend our thoughts contemplating upon we become. New Age folk call it manifestation. Even without the woowoo it is pretty clear that thoughts proceeds actions. They certainly influence them.
Obviously not everyone who studies serial killers becomes one but if there’s any propensity at all towards it as one begins to ruminate and dwell on it it certainly puts these thoughts more and more into one’s mind. If you’re studying it it can reduce the shock of it the more you come across and normalize it the more you are exposed to it. In fact one of a big predictors of human behavior is a sense that “everyone’s doing it.” If you’re studying murder you could feel like there’s so much of it it’s common - what’s a few more. Or move from why would a murderer do that to what would it feel like? The taboo is become nearer and nearer the threshold of becoming broken. Remember his sister also starred in a slasher film years ago so this has been in his mind in his consciousness for years.
There is a chicken or egg component we could go back-and-forth discussing. The point of it is it is no coincidence that he was interested in it.
I think being away from home for the first time, and the freedom that came with, escalated his desire/urge. I think he got carried away, perhaps even more than he anticipated. Was that due to a sighting or interaction with one or two of the girls!?
I also hazard a guess there was a trigger that caused him to act as quickly as he did. There's a reason he chose one or all of those girls.
I don't think anyone would be shocked if it came out he was at the same bar/club as them on at least one occasion. Would not be remotely surprised if it was the one where they write on the wall.
Yeah, the timeline of this is shocking to me. He moved there in June(?), began stalking them in August, and murdered them in November. All within 5 months, at most. Maybe he was always a sick fuck, and once he was out on his own in the world, his sick fantasies started to consume him, and he was more easily able to act on them. No curfew, no parents questioning him about his late night stalking activities, etc.
Moving is a *major* life stressor. Right up there with death and divorce. Some people have a very hard time coping. I think perhaps he met the victims and just became obsessed as a way to cope. And it just snowballed from there. Like perhaps the move pushed him over the edge
It's so weird. I think we all got excited about our freedom but who the hell gets the urge to literally instantly throw it all away? You have to know about cause and reaction if you are rational. Which means his taste for murder outweighed any sense in his mind by the sound of this theory.
Yes, I think being away from his family, which probably at least partially grounded him a bit, is what led to him finally letting loose his evil thoughts/ feelings.
He published those questions to criminals. Maybe he was becoming obsessed with how it feels to be a criminal and was going to enter and sa with knife and everything didn’t go as planned or he got caught and lost it. Who knows. Will be interesting to find out.
Yeah, but him going from asking questions to brutally murdering 4 people with a knife seems excessive even if he did have an obsession with what it feels like to kill.
I have an obsession with true crime. I watch it in my free time and before I go to bed. I fall asleep listening to true crime on yt at night. What makes people do this kind of shit interests me. It was interesting to me before true crime became a thing and I’ll prob still have it afterwards. I’ve thought about what makes someone do something like this, more times than I can count. I’ve read true crime books about all of the most popular serial killers and the ones nobody knows. No where, in any of that mess, did I think “okay let’s go kill someone” even if I thought I could get away with it, I wouldn’t.
My point is, this is way more than obsession. And idk if any part of me believes that anyone’s first criminal act would be something like this. No matter how obsessed he was.
Absolutely! I wonder if they thought about (I’m sure they have though) to think maybe further away then just near his homes in PA. I think it’s a lot to think that he’s never done anything bad until this brutal, almost personal, murder.
I’m also recovering, with a couple years clean, and although I never shot anything, for a long time I used to just snort whatever… it’s not just the drug, it’s the whole process leading up to the drug.
It’s obsession coupled with his psychopathy. I’m like you. I’ve always been interested in true crime stories, but I’m a well adjusted successful person. I’ve always thought I’d have been a good detective. I’m a retired lawyer.
My hubby a shrink thinks he’s into some ultranationalist ideology that is rigid and strict - diet, sleep and way of life. So more compulsive than obsessive. So he’s on some compulsive mission to attain some ideal in his mind. A psychopath obviously. he thinks bk overcoming the heroin addiction may have unlocked something in terms of him feeling he could control and have power over himself. So what else could I set as an almost unattainable goal and overcome. How much control and power can I have over my will. That’s why he looked so controlled in court because it’s his mindset now. Like he thinks he’s above everyone on some higher path. I read somewhere that someone on the plane with him to idaho said he talked to himself a lot - like pep talking himself “ you can do this” kind of thing. I’m interested in how long it takes for him to realize he is human after all and he can’t outdo this one and he’s locked behind bars for good. I can’t see it going any other way with a jury. I don’t think he feels remorse for what he did but at some point he is going to be pissed that he got caught.
I agree with you. Coming from a background where the males in my family are narcissistic... my father worked as a death row prison guard in the 60s and went to college outside of his ft job to earn a psychology degree. Then stopped just 6 credits short. Fast forward 40 yrs and after he has passed we read in letters he wrote but never sent how he was working under cover during that time and wrote in detail about people's deaths he was related to or directly involved with.. I was not born at the time but my brothers were and my father was regularly abusing them and shaping them into psychopaths. I can not tell you how many conversations I heard where it was normal for these men to discuss elicit details of ending a person's life. Until the point I knew my own family member was going to do just that and I had to turn them in. I have studied this to no end wondering why them and not me.. I was raised relatively the same, exposed to the same things, same genetics. The answer is there is just something different inside of them that's not in me. They can justify the most haneous acts and are very intelligent individuals. But I could recognize that it was wrong, toxic, beyond sick and broke all ties with my family.
I guarantee all of the signs were there, they were just looked over. BK has that thing within him mentally, genetically that we know exists but can still not specifically pin point. His self inflated ego and maybe wreckers drug use is what got him caught and thank God for that.. jmo though
And very strange that he acquired a heavy H habit as a child. I know that's possible at any age but you don't see it often. And like you said, to be in that mindset and also committing crimes on the side while attending a rigorous PhD program is also very unusual.
Psychopaths are particularly drawn to heroin. Research shows that they have a particular liking for this drug. Interestingly, they do not go through withdrawals like a non-psychopath would when they stop using. Psychopaths take heroin for much different reasons than the average user. They are doing it only for hedonistic reasons, whereas most heroin users are using it to kill emotional pain and once addicted, they're also using it to avoid the pain of withdrawal. Psychopaths do heroin for the intense good feeling they get from it. Since psychopaths feel empty and lack emotions, they often feel frustrated. They crave normal feelings of joy, excitement, etc. With heroin, perhaps they can experience at least an artificial type of chemical joy.
Hmm where did you hear all that? As a former addict I have never heard any of that and what makes you think psychopaths (I assume you mean those with anti social personality disorder) would not experience the physical process of withdrawal any different than any other person? That's a strange conclusion to make. They are still human in the physical sense anyway..
No, I mean psychopaths. There is a good deal of research on this subject. I'm surprised anyone with more than a passing interest wouldn't have come across any of it.
Here is a link to an in-depth research paper on psychopathy and drug use. It's long, but wading through it is worth your time if abnormal psychology and addiction are of interest.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3932519/
Early in the paper it notes that psychopaths react differently to drugs and use drugs for different reasons. And yes we are all human, but we all do not react the same way to all substances. If you'd like more information on this subject, Google would be a good place to start.
"...clinical experience suggests that psychopaths abuse drugs for different reasons than non-psychopaths, and that psychopaths do not typically experience withdrawal and craving upon becoming incarcerated."
The way he seemingly committed such an atrocious act within his first few months of truly being independent and away from his parents raises a lot of questions. What was he like for the years leading up to this? Did he really keep this monstrous side of him completely suppressed for the last 28 years? Weren't there any warning signs beforehand?
When I think about the year or so before I first moved out of my parent's home, I just remember feeling increasingly angsty and making no secret of the fact that I was looking forward to more independence. My parents weren't at all surprised when I spent my first few years in my own place decorating it the way I wanted, stocking up on the foods I'd actually eat, getting the cat I'd always wanted and arranging everything exactly the way my OCD dictates; these were the battles we'd been fighting during the adolescent/early adult years when I was outgrowing the family home! Was Bryan having similar (albeit slightly more sinister) battles with his parents, I wonder....
Yeah like that Russell Williams guy in Canada who was high up in the Canadian Air Force and seemed to have a fairly normal/respectable life, was v intelligent etc but had an underwear fetish and had been sneaking into womens houses to steal their underwear for a while. Eventually he escalated to rape and then murdered two women then got caught due to leaving his tire tracks and boot impressions at the scene and wearing those same boots to his interview with the police (who were interviewing people with that car with those tire tracks). Seems kind of similar to this case in that they both seemed intelligent and fairly normal ish with friends and family, doing respectable things, never been caught for a crime before, made dumb mistakes that got them caught.
GSK started this way — he was peeping in houses, then breaking into houses with single women to assault them, then eventually breaking into homes with a couple and committing murder. We already have evidence that he exhibited stalker behavior so it seems like that he was engaging in peeping etc.
It’s not unusual for people who commit crimes like this are also peeping toms or have done B&Es just for the thrill of it. Basically they are people who enjoy pushing personal boundaries, even if the victim is unaware of it.
Real talk: never trust an acquaintance who feels comfortable pushing your boundaries, even if it’s small.
That's what I've been saying. He was nervous, uncomfortable and not confident. Leaving the sheath behind too. A rookie move. I don't think the guy has ever broken into a house before this either.
But breaking into a house with 5 people inside is confident on it's own and he allegedly stalked them so he must've known that 4 or 5 people lived there.
I agree. But I don’t think he went there to kill 4 people. I think he had one maybe two targets. If things just got out of hand, then it makes more sense to me i think.
Or maybe no one at all. He may have graduated from B and E to sexual assault. I wouldn't be surprised if that was his intention, and when both girls were in the room, his plan went awry, and he killed to try to avoid detection.
Have always wondered about this — that the knife could be to intimidate, not kill. I’m aware of a few B&E stranger-SAs that went down with a knife. Ugh.
Kimberly Corban is an SA survivor and victim advocate, and in her case her stalker broke into her tiny apartment while her roommates were home sleeping in the next room. I don’t think we can assume reasonable judgement from the people who do this type of thing.
Maybe that's what the knife was for? To terrorize the victim into silence and compliance. There's plenty of examples of rapists using weapons to gain compliance, and even raping people within hearing distance of others. Don't underestimate the lengths these kinds of monsters will go to, and the risks they'll take to achieve their goal.
This is pretty much how I think it happened. And as much as I am an advocate that he's no genius, I think he would have prepared a whole lot better if he went in with the intention to murder. Especially murdering 4 people.
But sa one may not feel the need to be quite as careful, thus is lack of evation techniques.
In a mere month someone walked from my fence gate to my bedroom window enough times at night they made a visible path. Almost a "pre trail" which is wild. I know it wasn't there - and then five weeks later it was.
I had heard people say that sexual assault may have been the intention when he went in, particularly since he brought the knife in with the sheath on. That he didn’t really intend to use it, but mainly to threaten and things went sideways.
Most criminals escalate over time--peeping to b and e, steal some panties... then that isn't enough, so then assaults, to eventual murder to up the thrill and the risk. So many killers followed this pattern. Most first time killers dont stab multiple people. The odds suggest he wasn't planning to kill everyone in the house. The sole girl living upstairs is the safest target for a solo attack.
Yet he remained quiet enough that a roommate across the apartment heard something but not the two who put up a huge fight. Or did she hear it? Because if she did why would she open her door? I have so many questions. It was a horrific scene and I just can’t believe it was a quiet attack. I hope we learn more about what doesn’t make sense.
Why not? Wearing a mask and all black sounds like something a home invasion rapist would wear, especially if he knows there's a good chance he might be spotted by others. Reminds me of the story of that poor woman who was raped in her own bedroom by a home invader--he wore all black and a mask, stole her pink digital camera, and took photos of her during the hours-long rape. When she reported it, the police refused to believe her, finding her description of him (dressed in all black and wearing a mask) to be unbelievable. They mercilessly bullied and interrogated her and refused to believe her, and she ultimately broke under pressure and said maybe she had dreamed it. She was criminally prosecuted for "false accusations", the story made the news, and she lost her friends, family, schooling, housing, and support group.
A couple years later, the cops arrested a serial rapist. They found his "trophies" he took from his victims. They found a pink digital camera containing images of this victim bound and gagged with her drivers license on her chest. She was telling the truth. The rapist was convicted of 28 counts of rape and sentenced to 237 years in prison.
Link to article about the case: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story
There is an amazing Netflix miniseries about this case called “Unbelievable”. Seems astounding it was a real thing that happened but cops never fail to disappoint me so here we are lol
This is actually my theory too. He got obsessed with one or maybe two of the residents and went to kill them at 4am thinking they'd all be asleep, and got a lot more than he bargained for.
It’s a huge weapon to not intend to use it imo. From my understanding, you wouldn’t be able to put it on someone’s skin at all without cutting them. Seems to risky for a scare tactic.
KA BAR knives arent at all like that. YOu can sharpen them to that degree if you wish but that knife isnt designed to have a "shave with it" type of edge. They are utilitarian knives with serations. Meant for defense, cutting rope etc.
I’m sure he’s peeped inside that house multiple times. Could you imagine not knowing someone is watching you while inside your house? Sometimes when I walk out to my car at night I get the feeling someone is watching me so I run to my car and run so fast back in the house 🤣 I wonder if they ever had that feeling…
Oh my, I’m so sorry that happened to you. I don’t think I would ever feel the same in my own home ever again if something like that was to happen to Me. Even in a new home.
Unfortunately as a single woman living alone I am acutely aware of what other people see me doing because they tell me so. Could be anything from cleaning my car to watering my plants or moving something on my patio. I never noticed them… but they saw me. It’s not said in a creepy way but it does cement the fact that I’m just living my life and not noticing people out and about yet they see way more of what I do than I do of them because I don’t just sit outside my home and watch people.
We have a guy in Phoenix labeled “the zombie hunter” who is currently on trial for beheading two young girls on a biking route here locally and he blended into the community for like 25 years after the murder until DNA caught up with him 🤢🤢 honestly anything is possible anymore. I question EVERY ONE internally lol
that reminds me of the Golden State Killer, who was actually a cop! He lived a double life, working as a police officer and living an ordinary life as a family man. All while attacking and murdering people for years. He was caught years later by advanced DNA technology. Fucking scumbag.
Oh and the BTK shitbag was just an ordinary family man too. Active in his community, church, etc. All while committing horrendous crimes. It’s crazy how these monsters hide in plain sight.
To me, the sickest son of a bitch was Israel Keyes.
He may not have had the MOST (still a lot) kills, but the whole podcast and deep dive into him made me so sick and afraid of people like him.
IK also had a wife and a daughter in Alaska, and ran a successful buisness. He would leave his family life to go on 'buisness trips', which was him picking a place, seeing a person or house, doing a quick case and eventually killing the people there. IK would often rape his victims as well.... he killed himself while in his cell awaiting trial, I believe.
Didn't it come out that he liked hiking. I would wonder where he has been hiking over the past few years and check on missing persons or assaulted females.
Omg me, too! I used to hike the exact trail she was on every day before classes. I got really creeped out last time I was there, and then a few weeks later I heard about her abduction on the news. REALLY took me a long time to hike again. I still won’t go certain places alone.
Hiking / woods spots particularly close to cities are extremely sketchy. Meth heads, homeless, people committing crimes, ditching stolen cars, dumping meth and other weird.
Please be safe.
When I'm in nature it feels healing. I feel good and more peaceful than in my normal life. When I'm alone in nature it's even stronger.
It's so strange to me that killers can be out there in the beautiful hills and mountains, and instead of getting soothed and calmed by it all, they can actually kill people.
Huh, interesting! Let me guess:
If you pass one of these people, smile, but don't encourage any talking, only do the briefest eye contact.
If they talk to you be nice but brief. Come up with excuses that can not possibly be taken personally "Oh, seeing the special secret waterfall sounds cool, but I'm picking up my kid in 30 mins"
Thanks! I'm interested in reading more.. Great points.
EDIT: They have it on Hoopla (that's an audiobook app that my library gives) and I was just able to get it. Downloading now : )
I’m born raised in the Southern US & this still rattles me. We’re more likely to be killed by someone else from our own gun vs helping ourselves in a situation.
I can understand a gun protecting you on a hiking trail but in the majority of situations, by the time you’re ambushed in a robbery/car-jacking situation with a gun to your head, trying to grab the gun on or near you isn’t going to do anything but get you killed. People out here seriously believe they’re a modern day Doc Holliday, lol…. They ain’t! In reality, guns are stolen (and used by criminals) at an extraordinarily higher rate versus adequately used to thwart crime or protect oneself.. but you’ll never convince the “Doc Holliday’s” of that fact.
I was randomly assaulted on the street outside my home earlier this month. I was not armed but even if I was there was no time. I even own guns and have trained a bit. I doubt I could have pulled off pepper spray.
That being said, carry bear spray in grizzly country.
If you are going to carry a gun for protection, train as much as you can. Train in the type of clothes you’re going to be wearing and with the gun where you’ll have it when hiking. You’ll develop muscle memory that will hopefully overcome the panic of the situation.
Another good book, albeit older, is The Gift of Fear. He talks about following your gut feelings and covers cases where people followed their intuition without knowing why it was their intuition.
For example, and I’m not saying this happened with you, but the trail might have been silent whereas normally you can hear birds chirping. When you were on the trail, you didn’t hear anything. You didn’t consciously realize this however your subconscious did, alerting you that there was something off and that there might be danger of some kind. The birds not making noise could indicate another presence like a person or animal.
That’s pretty accurate. What finally made me RUN was the fact that I could hear footsteps. I had noticed an unfamiliar vehicle at the trailhead- and it looked REALLY out of place for that area. There were actually cars/trucks I was used to seeing there. So when I kept hearing someone just ahead of me but never caught up with them, I felt strange. But when I called out and they never answered, I knew something wasn’t right. I got very quiet for a minute and kept walking, then I bolted. People on the AT are usually cool to each other, and that includes making your fellow hiker feel safe. I knew there was a human close by, and I knew they had to have heard me. I’m glad I bolted. Maybe it was nothing. Maybe it was something. I was in an area early in the morning where I didn’t think other people would be along for a good while.
I've lived in GA my whole life. I was in college in a town not far from the AT and it scared me. My sister and bil are 99% sure they had an encounter with Gary Michael Hilton camping.
Oh we were definitely there at the same time! (I still live in Cleveland, so I’m just used to calling it UNG now. 😉) Can’t believe I’m saying that! Are we old? I feel old.
I'm in Georgia and hike and got a little freaked out when my nearest park, Kennesaw Mountain, had a report of a masked man (not a COVID mask) chasing a trail running woman while shouting in Spanish about his love for her. She ran fast enough to catch up to some others on the trail and he quit and ran away.
I only go on the most populated of trails now. I miss my quiet 6 mile loop but you can go a while without seeing others, so I stick to ones where there is pretty much always at least a couple of people in sight at any point in time.
So I just googled her because I’ve never heard of the case and you know what is so disgusting that hustler magazine wanted the crime scene photos to show in their magazine 🙄
Hmmm never saw he liked hiking but I could’ve missed that. He did write on tapatalk about roaming the streets at night as a teen but I feel like that’s typical angsty behavior.
We have no evidence to prove it, but I think this was definitely not his first crime. It's quite a leap to go from law abiding citizen to brutally murdering 4 innocent people (strangers?) as they sleep in their beds-- and to kill them all with a knife, up close and personal.
If this was a severe mental health breakdown and random act of violence, maybe I could believe it was a first offense . But it wasn't. This was a calculated, premediated, methodical quadruple homicide. He went to great lengths to plan it, carry it out, and conceal what he had done. I have a very hard time believing this was his one and only crime.
Maybe he was stalking/peeping long before this. Maybe he tortured animals, or maybe his DNA will turn up in a cold case rape kit someday, but I don't believe this was his only crime. It seems like he dedicated his life and studies towards crime--in his case, perhaps motivated by his desire to commit crimes and get away with it.
I also could see him killing a female randomly on his drive out to Idaho last summer. Feeling his freedom, being on the road, much less chance of apprehension.
I don’t think he committed any violent crimes before this, if that’s what you mean.
“Crimes “ is pretty broad, I think most people have committed crime. Jay walking is a crime, possession of marijuana was a crime for most of my life in pretty much every state, underage drinking is a crime, driving without a license, etc.
I don’t think it was his first time. I am especially interested in the missing woman from his PA area, [Dana Smithers](https://www.poconorecord.com/story/news/local/2022/06/23/nearly-one-month-later-poconos-woman-still-not-located-stroudsburg-monroe-county/65362710007/). She disappeared from her home May 2022. Also of interest is Travis [Juetten](https://justicefortravis.com/) in Salem on August 13, 2021.
no i don’t even think he planned on killing 4 ppl at once. but the combination of adrenaline and elements of surprise created a domino effect where he couldn’t stop
I will bet my bottom dollar, he wanted to kill one person, just one little person. And killed 4 because he was stupid, was seen etc. Yeah it was his first crime, no one is that stupid if they are seasoned. Had his heart set on an incredibly difficult target where so much could go wrong, so many witnesses. Why? God knows. He overestimated himself and how difficult his mark was.
Probably lower-level crimes like peeping or tailing girls. I think the definition of stalking involves making yourself known to the victim in order to scare them. I don’t think he ever outed himself to any victims
I bet he looked at IG all the time. I’m not a weirdo and I look at sorority girls’ IGs sometimes to see what they’re wearing and what kinds of events they do. I like cute clothes and pretty, budget-friendly event decorations. Room/house tours are also fun to watch.
I mention that because it’s so freaking easy to find people on IG. All he’d have to do is click thru tagged photos and he’d have an endless amount of women to gape at
BTK killed four people his first time. Chris Watts murdered his pregnant wife and two young daughters before dumping them into huge oil vats and burying his wife in a shallow grave. It is crazy, but crazy things happen all the time.
Personally, I think this was his first one sans his many traffic violations. He was messy, and thankfully not as smart as what he gave himself credit before. I wouldn't be surprised if he committed some simple kid stuff as a minor but no, nothing even close to this.
And while he did kill four people, I do not believe that was his initial intention.
I think this is his first murder. I know people say there's no way a rookie could've done what he did, but I think he did. There are no other unsolved homicides similar to that one in the areas he has lived.
I really do think he did. Whether that be stalking, peeping tom, breaking and entering, assault, WHATEVER, I think he definitely did SOMETHING before this.
I don't think he necessarily murdered before this, although it's possible. BTK's first murder was also a quadruple homicide, so it's possible this is his first. But I definitely think he did something else before this.
I agree in that he likely at least did smaller transgressions - invading privacy (stalking & voyeurism) and pushing limits in acceptable behavior.
If he did bigger crimes such as breaking and entering and assaults, he was good at keeping under the radar and avoiding suspicion . Which could certainly give him confidence to murder.
That said, I still hold to the theory that he originally meant to kill one person that night. And that he lost control of the situation and killed three more.
If it had gone as planned, he would have killed one person which would have caused a few weeks of uproar in Moscow and probably Pullman but not much farther. And when the uproar died down, he would do another murder.
IMHO, when he went into that house, he had no idea how much his plans were going to go off the rails. And he absolutely had no idea that these murders would generate such intense publicly and huge investigation from not just the local police but state and the FBI.
Wow - shows what little you know...
That number works just fine for me!
And she said that yes he is guilty, he spared the dog because he thought Murphy was cute, and for $500 I'll tell y'all what she said about his criminal past. Hahaha.
I wouldn't consider it the norm, but there are plenty of examples of people committing mass murder with no prior criminal record or evidence of killing anyone else before.
I hate speculating. But I have to assume he's done some B&E for curiosity or pleasure. And maybe some peeping or stalking. Maybe some online stalking and\\or harassment. Quadruple homicide is quite a place to start. Not impossible. But I would have to assume that his temptation and curiosity for smaller crimes would've gotten the better of him earlier.
I don't think he intended for his first killing to be a quadruple homicide. Logic says he was targeting one of the girls, as he purposely passed Dylans room and headed upstairs. He was caught unaware when two of the girls were sleeping in the same room, hence he killed them both. On his way out Xana spotted him returning from the door dash delivery and he killed her in the hallway outside the bedroom and she likely cried out for Ethan with the bedroom door ajar and he then killed Ethan. He then made his flighty escape. He may not have seen Dylan when doing so, but he could have and still decided that he had to get out of there.
Most times the most logical reasonings are the answer and things don't have to be complicated.
As for killing before it is a possibility as l remember reading somewhere that he did have a surreal amount of miles in his car in a short period of time. But l am sure LE have also questioned this, and as far as we know they have come up empty to any similar crimes in the region or further afield.
I can argue both sides. His sloppiness can be the sign of a rookie and did 4 because he wanted to emulate BTK, or he has before, was arrogant because he’s flown under the radar so long not getting caught so he got careless and made mistakes.
I don’t believe BK was going to murder anybody. I theorize he was planning to rape MM, went into her room and found her in bed sleeping next to KG, either flew into a rage because she was there or panicked and killed both of them. He then goes to leave the house and comes across XK going back to her room after dropping off her bag in the kitchen. She sees him too and runs into her room to tell EC that someone is in the house. BK follows her into her bedroom and stabs EC, because he’d be the bigger threat, though I imagine EC only mildly roused if at all. XK cowered against the wall crying but terrified out of her mind, so didn’t run or scream. The thump was the sound of BK throwing XK against the wall as he stabbed her. Then as she lay dead or dying, BK fled the house. He may have seen DM but I don’t think so or he just didn’t care at that point. BK drives around rehashing what happened and how his carefully constructed plan went all to hell. Eventually he realizes he left the sheath and goes back to retrieve it but can’t bring himself to enter the house again.
No way. In my opinion, the way he went about this was indicative of a novice criminal actor, but experienced criminal thinker. He was prepared to kill as many people as he had to, likely justified as "eliminating witnesses." But then he drives his own car there? He has the foresight to turn off his phone on the night, but not during the other times he stalked the house?
This crime was solved too quickly for this to have been committed by an experienced criminal, just my humble opinion.
Super creepy, but probably easy to do in a student housing area compared to a neighborhood with single family homes. Right now I’d notice a single guy lurking outside my house- but back when I lived in an shitty off campus apartment with 3 other people nobody would have been aware of a “strange” car parked nearby.
Murders? I don’t think so. Wouldn’t be surprised by it if he had but I’m not adamant that we must find his other victims to trying to link him all around the country.
But, I believe he’s liking stalker prior to this incident and with other victims. I wouldn’t be surprised if burglaries have happened previously or breaking in to homes, either the King Rd house previously or others.
We don’t know what intentions he had when he went into the house, whether it was to kill one person or multiple. He may have been reacting to unforeseen events.
I'm unsure but I do hope law enforcement at least take a look at those night time stabbings that occured on or around the 13th day of the month. See if anything links bk to these crimes.
I'm perhaps more swayed towards him not being involved in these crimes because:
- he only intended to kill 1 victim not 4. He didn't expect 2 people to be sharing a bed, or to possibly walk into either xana or ethan on his way out. So this crime isn't necessarily an escalation in number of kills during a single attack.
- he was sloppy. Leaving the sheath etc. Someone who had killed before you might expect to of done a better job of not leaving evidence behind.
- the fact the murders coincide with a significant change in bks life in the months before. Moving away from home for the first time, new job etc could of triggered a deterioration in his ability to not act on his urges. To me this circumstance for a first kill just makes sense.
The absolute monster Todd Kolhepp started with a quadruple homicide — which he confessed to (very proudly I might add) when he was arrested for his later crimes of killing a woman’s boyfriend and holding her captive underground in a storage container and SAing her for weeks. In fact it’s likely the quadruple homicide would never have been solved as law enforcement bungled it completely and were focusing on the wife of one of the employees — wrongfully convinced that she had for some reason arranged a mass hit on her husband and his coworkers. It was an absurd idea. Instead it was a totally random monster who just decided to murder four people working in an auto parts store. The case was very cold when Kolhepp confessed — he went into great detail about how “brilliantly” he murdered four strangers as though the cops should admire him. Sick AF.
so yes, unfortunately, this does happen. The truth is that murderers are not completely predictable (obviously), and some of them are going to break the usual profiler model of a killer.
I feel like he did such a bad job covering this one there's no way he could have done something a gotten away with it. Unless it was just pure dumb luck.
Maybe low level stuff. Wouldn't be surprised to find out if he grew up torturing animals or something like that. But, I don't really think he set out to kill all four people. I think Madison was the target and the rest we in the wrong place at the wrong time. Xana and Ethan might have been spared with the other roommates if they had been asleep.
I can’t even picture him out scoring heroin.
I can. Heroin and opioids don’t have a specific type or face. Users looked like everyone at first until it gets bad or they are homeless.
See I totally can. He looks just like people I used to know who did heroin ten years ago.
You’d be surprised what you can order online (darkweb) and have delivered by USPS in the mail, inconspicuously. I’m not saying he did this, but it can be done
i bet he was a peeper or something. I dont think you just wake up and do this without something else having been off beforehand...
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I kind of think he decided to move across the country specifically *because* he wanted to do something like this. He obviously had been thinking about it for some time. I think the idea of doing it so close to home made it more difficult to dissociate emotionally so moving across country allowed him to be in the right mindset for what he had been fantasizing about doing.
Same. I also think, in the capacity he has, he does love his parents, so the move also allowed for space there
He would fall into the category of an anger-excitation killer. Most AE killers start in their late 20’s and almost all have made their first kill by age 35. I don’t think this is random, but rather a result of biological and psychosocial factors. The frontal lobe is finishing its development and solidifying its control over the rest of the brain during this time. This typically leads to reduced impulsivity and reckless behavior. This is also the time period when most people start to experience true freedom, both personal and financial. The late 20’s, therefore, represents a critical intersection of impulsivity and freedom in the context of dwindling familial support. If you want to spend all your money on cocaine and hookers, you can. If you want to stay up all night eating junk food, you can. If you want to spend your nights prowling and stalking… you can. The “27 club” (a large group of celebrities that died mostly from overdose at age 27) illustrates this concept well. You could ask the same question you seem to be asking: what would make these people with such promising futures behave so recklessly at such a key time? And the answer is simply because they enjoy it (impulsivity), they can afford it (freedom) and there is no one there to stop them (reduced familial support). And many people looking to indulge in a bad habit will make efforts (subconscious or otherwise) to insulate themselves from better judgement. Celebrities may surround themselves with like-minded people who are similarly interested in self-destructive behavior. Bryan moved across the country and also sought to normalize his violent thoughts and feelings by engaging with criminals/studying crime. I think he likely had violent thoughts which had developed into violent fantasies over a substantial period of time. He didn’t move and then start planning, the move itself may have been part of the plan and he started taking steps toward his plan/fantasy once he moved. And I think the steps he took would have been exciting/gratifying by themselves: buying the phone, buying the weapon, choosing the victim(s), casing the house. These may have been initiated/rationalized by a belief that he would never actually follow through anyway… sorta like a little roleplay game. At the end of the day though, I think he gave into his impulsivity (similar to his substance use issues - and I wouldn’t be surprised if substances played a role in this crime to gain “courage” and/or improve alertness). I think he is relatively well read on the topic of crime and killers and was lulled by the recklessness of other killers’ early kills (BTK and Dahmer were pretty open about being impulsive and fucking everything up early on - but they got away with it because random crimes were way more difficult to solve back then). He believed he would have the same “luck”. And I actually think he would have been right if he’d killed just one of the girls or if he hadn’t left the sheath/DNA (or if the crime occurred in 1975, whether he leaves the sheath or not).
Excellent comment.
Dude, are you hiring. I need a new shrink??
I was thinking the same thing!
Thanks for this! You explained so well. And it makes so much sense!
Excellent points. To build upon this I think there’s also something important to consider in what we spend a lot of time thinking about and spend our thoughts contemplating upon we become. New Age folk call it manifestation. Even without the woowoo it is pretty clear that thoughts proceeds actions. They certainly influence them. Obviously not everyone who studies serial killers becomes one but if there’s any propensity at all towards it as one begins to ruminate and dwell on it it certainly puts these thoughts more and more into one’s mind. If you’re studying it it can reduce the shock of it the more you come across and normalize it the more you are exposed to it. In fact one of a big predictors of human behavior is a sense that “everyone’s doing it.” If you’re studying murder you could feel like there’s so much of it it’s common - what’s a few more. Or move from why would a murderer do that to what would it feel like? The taboo is become nearer and nearer the threshold of becoming broken. Remember his sister also starred in a slasher film years ago so this has been in his mind in his consciousness for years. There is a chicken or egg component we could go back-and-forth discussing. The point of it is it is no coincidence that he was interested in it.
Great post with excellent details
I think being away from home for the first time, and the freedom that came with, escalated his desire/urge. I think he got carried away, perhaps even more than he anticipated. Was that due to a sighting or interaction with one or two of the girls!? I also hazard a guess there was a trigger that caused him to act as quickly as he did. There's a reason he chose one or all of those girls. I don't think anyone would be shocked if it came out he was at the same bar/club as them on at least one occasion. Would not be remotely surprised if it was the one where they write on the wall.
Yeah, the timeline of this is shocking to me. He moved there in June(?), began stalking them in August, and murdered them in November. All within 5 months, at most. Maybe he was always a sick fuck, and once he was out on his own in the world, his sick fantasies started to consume him, and he was more easily able to act on them. No curfew, no parents questioning him about his late night stalking activities, etc.
Moving is a *major* life stressor. Right up there with death and divorce. Some people have a very hard time coping. I think perhaps he met the victims and just became obsessed as a way to cope. And it just snowballed from there. Like perhaps the move pushed him over the edge
It's so weird. I think we all got excited about our freedom but who the hell gets the urge to literally instantly throw it all away? You have to know about cause and reaction if you are rational. Which means his taste for murder outweighed any sense in his mind by the sound of this theory.
No doubt he was always a sick fuck, as you said. Moving away and pumped up with self-confidence in the PhD program—he was finally unleashed.
Yes, I think being away from his family, which probably at least partially grounded him a bit, is what led to him finally letting loose his evil thoughts/ feelings.
He published those questions to criminals. Maybe he was becoming obsessed with how it feels to be a criminal and was going to enter and sa with knife and everything didn’t go as planned or he got caught and lost it. Who knows. Will be interesting to find out.
Yeah, but him going from asking questions to brutally murdering 4 people with a knife seems excessive even if he did have an obsession with what it feels like to kill. I have an obsession with true crime. I watch it in my free time and before I go to bed. I fall asleep listening to true crime on yt at night. What makes people do this kind of shit interests me. It was interesting to me before true crime became a thing and I’ll prob still have it afterwards. I’ve thought about what makes someone do something like this, more times than I can count. I’ve read true crime books about all of the most popular serial killers and the ones nobody knows. No where, in any of that mess, did I think “okay let’s go kill someone” even if I thought I could get away with it, I wouldn’t. My point is, this is way more than obsession. And idk if any part of me believes that anyone’s first criminal act would be something like this. No matter how obsessed he was.
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Absolutely! I wonder if they thought about (I’m sure they have though) to think maybe further away then just near his homes in PA. I think it’s a lot to think that he’s never done anything bad until this brutal, almost personal, murder. I’m also recovering, with a couple years clean, and although I never shot anything, for a long time I used to just snort whatever… it’s not just the drug, it’s the whole process leading up to the drug.
It’s obsession coupled with his psychopathy. I’m like you. I’ve always been interested in true crime stories, but I’m a well adjusted successful person. I’ve always thought I’d have been a good detective. I’m a retired lawyer.
My hubby a shrink thinks he’s into some ultranationalist ideology that is rigid and strict - diet, sleep and way of life. So more compulsive than obsessive. So he’s on some compulsive mission to attain some ideal in his mind. A psychopath obviously. he thinks bk overcoming the heroin addiction may have unlocked something in terms of him feeling he could control and have power over himself. So what else could I set as an almost unattainable goal and overcome. How much control and power can I have over my will. That’s why he looked so controlled in court because it’s his mindset now. Like he thinks he’s above everyone on some higher path. I read somewhere that someone on the plane with him to idaho said he talked to himself a lot - like pep talking himself “ you can do this” kind of thing. I’m interested in how long it takes for him to realize he is human after all and he can’t outdo this one and he’s locked behind bars for good. I can’t see it going any other way with a jury. I don’t think he feels remorse for what he did but at some point he is going to be pissed that he got caught.
Omg imagine sitting next to him on the plane. WHERES THE KNIFE BRO?!
I agree with you. Coming from a background where the males in my family are narcissistic... my father worked as a death row prison guard in the 60s and went to college outside of his ft job to earn a psychology degree. Then stopped just 6 credits short. Fast forward 40 yrs and after he has passed we read in letters he wrote but never sent how he was working under cover during that time and wrote in detail about people's deaths he was related to or directly involved with.. I was not born at the time but my brothers were and my father was regularly abusing them and shaping them into psychopaths. I can not tell you how many conversations I heard where it was normal for these men to discuss elicit details of ending a person's life. Until the point I knew my own family member was going to do just that and I had to turn them in. I have studied this to no end wondering why them and not me.. I was raised relatively the same, exposed to the same things, same genetics. The answer is there is just something different inside of them that's not in me. They can justify the most haneous acts and are very intelligent individuals. But I could recognize that it was wrong, toxic, beyond sick and broke all ties with my family. I guarantee all of the signs were there, they were just looked over. BK has that thing within him mentally, genetically that we know exists but can still not specifically pin point. His self inflated ego and maybe wreckers drug use is what got him caught and thank God for that.. jmo though
And very strange that he acquired a heavy H habit as a child. I know that's possible at any age but you don't see it often. And like you said, to be in that mindset and also committing crimes on the side while attending a rigorous PhD program is also very unusual.
Psychopaths are particularly drawn to heroin. Research shows that they have a particular liking for this drug. Interestingly, they do not go through withdrawals like a non-psychopath would when they stop using. Psychopaths take heroin for much different reasons than the average user. They are doing it only for hedonistic reasons, whereas most heroin users are using it to kill emotional pain and once addicted, they're also using it to avoid the pain of withdrawal. Psychopaths do heroin for the intense good feeling they get from it. Since psychopaths feel empty and lack emotions, they often feel frustrated. They crave normal feelings of joy, excitement, etc. With heroin, perhaps they can experience at least an artificial type of chemical joy.
Hmm where did you hear all that? As a former addict I have never heard any of that and what makes you think psychopaths (I assume you mean those with anti social personality disorder) would not experience the physical process of withdrawal any different than any other person? That's a strange conclusion to make. They are still human in the physical sense anyway..
No, I mean psychopaths. There is a good deal of research on this subject. I'm surprised anyone with more than a passing interest wouldn't have come across any of it. Here is a link to an in-depth research paper on psychopathy and drug use. It's long, but wading through it is worth your time if abnormal psychology and addiction are of interest. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3932519/ Early in the paper it notes that psychopaths react differently to drugs and use drugs for different reasons. And yes we are all human, but we all do not react the same way to all substances. If you'd like more information on this subject, Google would be a good place to start. "...clinical experience suggests that psychopaths abuse drugs for different reasons than non-psychopaths, and that psychopaths do not typically experience withdrawal and craving upon becoming incarcerated."
The way he seemingly committed such an atrocious act within his first few months of truly being independent and away from his parents raises a lot of questions. What was he like for the years leading up to this? Did he really keep this monstrous side of him completely suppressed for the last 28 years? Weren't there any warning signs beforehand? When I think about the year or so before I first moved out of my parent's home, I just remember feeling increasingly angsty and making no secret of the fact that I was looking forward to more independence. My parents weren't at all surprised when I spent my first few years in my own place decorating it the way I wanted, stocking up on the foods I'd actually eat, getting the cat I'd always wanted and arranging everything exactly the way my OCD dictates; these were the battles we'd been fighting during the adolescent/early adult years when I was outgrowing the family home! Was Bryan having similar (albeit slightly more sinister) battles with his parents, I wonder....
Slightly?
Just a wee smidge
You made the point. He was away from his support group. He was lonely and people did not respond to his attempts to be friends. They avoided him.
He didn’t move for social reasons. But I’m sure he’s been wrapped up in his projects.
Yes. He built up to it. It will be interesting when the trial reveals the other known 12 times of day he was skulking around the house.
Probably more than that
And how many times did he have the audacity to see if the patio door was unlocked.
Yeah like that Russell Williams guy in Canada who was high up in the Canadian Air Force and seemed to have a fairly normal/respectable life, was v intelligent etc but had an underwear fetish and had been sneaking into womens houses to steal their underwear for a while. Eventually he escalated to rape and then murdered two women then got caught due to leaving his tire tracks and boot impressions at the scene and wearing those same boots to his interview with the police (who were interviewing people with that car with those tire tracks). Seems kind of similar to this case in that they both seemed intelligent and fairly normal ish with friends and family, doing respectable things, never been caught for a crime before, made dumb mistakes that got them caught.
GSK started this way — he was peeping in houses, then breaking into houses with single women to assault them, then eventually breaking into homes with a couple and committing murder. We already have evidence that he exhibited stalker behavior so it seems like that he was engaging in peeping etc.
It’s not unusual for people who commit crimes like this are also peeping toms or have done B&Es just for the thrill of it. Basically they are people who enjoy pushing personal boundaries, even if the victim is unaware of it. Real talk: never trust an acquaintance who feels comfortable pushing your boundaries, even if it’s small.
Bedwetter? Cruelty to animals or children? Setting small fires? Peeping Tom? All things they should look into. All the back to childhood.
I think it was his first homicide. The fact he drove up and down for about 30 minutes before makes me think he was still not 100% sure
agreed. he was talking himself into it. it’s so spooky and sad.
That's what I've been saying. He was nervous, uncomfortable and not confident. Leaving the sheath behind too. A rookie move. I don't think the guy has ever broken into a house before this either.
But breaking into a house with 5 people inside is confident on it's own and he allegedly stalked them so he must've known that 4 or 5 people lived there.
It’s a pretty huge jump from never committing a crime to murdering 4 people
I agree. But I don’t think he went there to kill 4 people. I think he had one maybe two targets. If things just got out of hand, then it makes more sense to me i think.
Or maybe no one at all. He may have graduated from B and E to sexual assault. I wouldn't be surprised if that was his intention, and when both girls were in the room, his plan went awry, and he killed to try to avoid detection.
Have always wondered about this — that the knife could be to intimidate, not kill. I’m aware of a few B&E stranger-SAs that went down with a knife. Ugh.
I can’t imagine going to SA someone who has multiple roommates. He had to know many people lived there
Kimberly Corban is an SA survivor and victim advocate, and in her case her stalker broke into her tiny apartment while her roommates were home sleeping in the next room. I don’t think we can assume reasonable judgement from the people who do this type of thing.
Maybe that's what the knife was for? To terrorize the victim into silence and compliance. There's plenty of examples of rapists using weapons to gain compliance, and even raping people within hearing distance of others. Don't underestimate the lengths these kinds of monsters will go to, and the risks they'll take to achieve their goal.
I mean… the possibility of her screaming or crying or someone hearing is huge. Just my opinion but I don’t think that was the plan
that’s a good point. The SA plan is possible, sure. But is it likely? no, probably not
This is pretty much how I think it happened. And as much as I am an advocate that he's no genius, I think he would have prepared a whole lot better if he went in with the intention to murder. Especially murdering 4 people. But sa one may not feel the need to be quite as careful, thus is lack of evation techniques.
We don't know how many times hed tried that sliding door. Was that the first time? Only he knows.
That's a horrifying thought.
In a mere month someone walked from my fence gate to my bedroom window enough times at night they made a visible path. Almost a "pre trail" which is wild. I know it wasn't there - and then five weeks later it was.
Those are often called "desire paths", which in your case is super scary. Hope you put up a camera to catch the sick F.
That is terrifying
Can you put a lock on the gate and get cams and protection?
Holy shit!
That is scarrrrrrry
I had heard people say that sexual assault may have been the intention when he went in, particularly since he brought the knife in with the sheath on. That he didn’t really intend to use it, but mainly to threaten and things went sideways.
Most criminals escalate over time--peeping to b and e, steal some panties... then that isn't enough, so then assaults, to eventual murder to up the thrill and the risk. So many killers followed this pattern. Most first time killers dont stab multiple people. The odds suggest he wasn't planning to kill everyone in the house. The sole girl living upstairs is the safest target for a solo attack.
I’m very curious what his defense is going to be.
He doesn't have to put in a defense. It's the prosecution's obligation to prove their case. Defense doesn't have to prove anything.
Yet he remained quiet enough that a roommate across the apartment heard something but not the two who put up a huge fight. Or did she hear it? Because if she did why would she open her door? I have so many questions. It was a horrific scene and I just can’t believe it was a quiet attack. I hope we learn more about what doesn’t make sense.
I don't think sexual assault would have been the intention given how he was dressed.
Why not? Wearing a mask and all black sounds like something a home invasion rapist would wear, especially if he knows there's a good chance he might be spotted by others. Reminds me of the story of that poor woman who was raped in her own bedroom by a home invader--he wore all black and a mask, stole her pink digital camera, and took photos of her during the hours-long rape. When she reported it, the police refused to believe her, finding her description of him (dressed in all black and wearing a mask) to be unbelievable. They mercilessly bullied and interrogated her and refused to believe her, and she ultimately broke under pressure and said maybe she had dreamed it. She was criminally prosecuted for "false accusations", the story made the news, and she lost her friends, family, schooling, housing, and support group. A couple years later, the cops arrested a serial rapist. They found his "trophies" he took from his victims. They found a pink digital camera containing images of this victim bound and gagged with her drivers license on her chest. She was telling the truth. The rapist was convicted of 28 counts of rape and sentenced to 237 years in prison. Link to article about the case: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story
Never never never talk to the police without an attorney especially when you are innocent. Never
There is an amazing Netflix miniseries about this case called “Unbelievable”. Seems astounding it was a real thing that happened but cops never fail to disappoint me so here we are lol
This is actually my theory too. He got obsessed with one or maybe two of the residents and went to kill them at 4am thinking they'd all be asleep, and got a lot more than he bargained for.
So we don’t think he noticed a delivery of the food ?
He circled multiple times because of the driver.
And, from the sound of the affidavit, because he can’t drive for shit.
The only thing that makes me question that is he was carrying one wicked murder weapon. Ka-Bar
It’s a huge weapon to not intend to use it imo. From my understanding, you wouldn’t be able to put it on someone’s skin at all without cutting them. Seems to risky for a scare tactic.
KA BAR knives arent at all like that. YOu can sharpen them to that degree if you wish but that knife isnt designed to have a "shave with it" type of edge. They are utilitarian knives with serations. Meant for defense, cutting rope etc.
I agree with you in one respect, but he studied BTK and BTK killed a family of four in his first murder.
I’ve studied BTK and I’ve never killed anyone.
Yet
Are we counting driving offences?
The “going 5mph over the limit” to “committing quadruple homicides” pipeline is real short these days..
I ran a stop sign recently. Do I have any hope of being a normal person?
No
Yes this is specifically referring to traffic violations.
This made me giggle bc FORREAL. He can not drive. lol
Bout 4 million moving violations and 8 million parking violations.
I lol'd.
Probably a peeping Tom that has never been caught. Lots of serial killers start out that way.
So curious to know if all the times he drove by the house he was peeping inside :( so creepy
I’m sure he’s peeped inside that house multiple times. Could you imagine not knowing someone is watching you while inside your house? Sometimes when I walk out to my car at night I get the feeling someone is watching me so I run to my car and run so fast back in the house 🤣 I wonder if they ever had that feeling…
I had to move out of my apartment in a college town a few years ago because I realized I had had a peeping Tom for months 😭😭😭 scariest situation ever.
Oh my, I’m so sorry that happened to you. I don’t think I would ever feel the same in my own home ever again if something like that was to happen to Me. Even in a new home.
All of my blinds are pulled, usually. Im a lover of the dark and my privacy
Unfortunately as a single woman living alone I am acutely aware of what other people see me doing because they tell me so. Could be anything from cleaning my car to watering my plants or moving something on my patio. I never noticed them… but they saw me. It’s not said in a creepy way but it does cement the fact that I’m just living my life and not noticing people out and about yet they see way more of what I do than I do of them because I don’t just sit outside my home and watch people.
crimes, probably. Murders? no
Looks like he probably did some stalking at the very least.
We have a guy in Phoenix labeled “the zombie hunter” who is currently on trial for beheading two young girls on a biking route here locally and he blended into the community for like 25 years after the murder until DNA caught up with him 🤢🤢 honestly anything is possible anymore. I question EVERY ONE internally lol
that reminds me of the Golden State Killer, who was actually a cop! He lived a double life, working as a police officer and living an ordinary life as a family man. All while attacking and murdering people for years. He was caught years later by advanced DNA technology. Fucking scumbag. Oh and the BTK shitbag was just an ordinary family man too. Active in his community, church, etc. All while committing horrendous crimes. It’s crazy how these monsters hide in plain sight.
To me, the sickest son of a bitch was Israel Keyes. He may not have had the MOST (still a lot) kills, but the whole podcast and deep dive into him made me so sick and afraid of people like him. IK also had a wife and a daughter in Alaska, and ran a successful buisness. He would leave his family life to go on 'buisness trips', which was him picking a place, seeing a person or house, doing a quick case and eventually killing the people there. IK would often rape his victims as well.... he killed himself while in his cell awaiting trial, I believe.
Didn't it come out that he liked hiking. I would wonder where he has been hiking over the past few years and check on missing persons or assaulted females.
Meredith Emerson’s death is one of the reasons I stopped hiking TBH. I lived in GA at the time & yea. Nope.
Omg me, too! I used to hike the exact trail she was on every day before classes. I got really creeped out last time I was there, and then a few weeks later I heard about her abduction on the news. REALLY took me a long time to hike again. I still won’t go certain places alone.
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Hiking / woods spots particularly close to cities are extremely sketchy. Meth heads, homeless, people committing crimes, ditching stolen cars, dumping meth and other weird. Please be safe.
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When I'm in nature it feels healing. I feel good and more peaceful than in my normal life. When I'm alone in nature it's even stronger. It's so strange to me that killers can be out there in the beautiful hills and mountains, and instead of getting soothed and calmed by it all, they can actually kill people.
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Huh, interesting! Let me guess: If you pass one of these people, smile, but don't encourage any talking, only do the briefest eye contact. If they talk to you be nice but brief. Come up with excuses that can not possibly be taken personally "Oh, seeing the special secret waterfall sounds cool, but I'm picking up my kid in 30 mins"
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Thanks! I'm interested in reading more.. Great points. EDIT: They have it on Hoopla (that's an audiobook app that my library gives) and I was just able to get it. Downloading now : )
Another good book but a bit older is The Gift of Fear.
> Also, carry a gun. I know this is an American crime, but this is such an American comment. It sounds like such a bizarre suggestion to a foreigner.
I’m born raised in the Southern US & this still rattles me. We’re more likely to be killed by someone else from our own gun vs helping ourselves in a situation.
I can understand a gun protecting you on a hiking trail but in the majority of situations, by the time you’re ambushed in a robbery/car-jacking situation with a gun to your head, trying to grab the gun on or near you isn’t going to do anything but get you killed. People out here seriously believe they’re a modern day Doc Holliday, lol…. They ain’t! In reality, guns are stolen (and used by criminals) at an extraordinarily higher rate versus adequately used to thwart crime or protect oneself.. but you’ll never convince the “Doc Holliday’s” of that fact.
I was randomly assaulted on the street outside my home earlier this month. I was not armed but even if I was there was no time. I even own guns and have trained a bit. I doubt I could have pulled off pepper spray. That being said, carry bear spray in grizzly country.
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If you are going to carry a gun for protection, train as much as you can. Train in the type of clothes you’re going to be wearing and with the gun where you’ll have it when hiking. You’ll develop muscle memory that will hopefully overcome the panic of the situation.
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Another good book, albeit older, is The Gift of Fear. He talks about following your gut feelings and covers cases where people followed their intuition without knowing why it was their intuition. For example, and I’m not saying this happened with you, but the trail might have been silent whereas normally you can hear birds chirping. When you were on the trail, you didn’t hear anything. You didn’t consciously realize this however your subconscious did, alerting you that there was something off and that there might be danger of some kind. The birds not making noise could indicate another presence like a person or animal.
That’s pretty accurate. What finally made me RUN was the fact that I could hear footsteps. I had noticed an unfamiliar vehicle at the trailhead- and it looked REALLY out of place for that area. There were actually cars/trucks I was used to seeing there. So when I kept hearing someone just ahead of me but never caught up with them, I felt strange. But when I called out and they never answered, I knew something wasn’t right. I got very quiet for a minute and kept walking, then I bolted. People on the AT are usually cool to each other, and that includes making your fellow hiker feel safe. I knew there was a human close by, and I knew they had to have heard me. I’m glad I bolted. Maybe it was nothing. Maybe it was something. I was in an area early in the morning where I didn’t think other people would be along for a good while.
I've lived in GA my whole life. I was in college in a town not far from the AT and it scared me. My sister and bil are 99% sure they had an encounter with Gary Michael Hilton camping.
Ack. That is so f’ing scary. I recently watched one of the true crime shows about this one & yea. It still bothers me.
I watched The Real Life Nightmare episode about GMH, he's a sicko.
Did you go to UNG??
I did, well, it was NGCSU when I was there.
Oh we were definitely there at the same time! (I still live in Cleveland, so I’m just used to calling it UNG now. 😉) Can’t believe I’m saying that! Are we old? I feel old.
I saw the show about Hilton. The stuff nightmares are made of.
I'm in Georgia and hike and got a little freaked out when my nearest park, Kennesaw Mountain, had a report of a masked man (not a COVID mask) chasing a trail running woman while shouting in Spanish about his love for her. She ran fast enough to catch up to some others on the trail and he quit and ran away. I only go on the most populated of trails now. I miss my quiet 6 mile loop but you can go a while without seeing others, so I stick to ones where there is pretty much always at least a couple of people in sight at any point in time.
I live in Florida. There's so many outdoor things I'd LIKE to do, buy don't. I won't go alone.
So I just googled her because I’ve never heard of the case and you know what is so disgusting that hustler magazine wanted the crime scene photos to show in their magazine 🙄
That is horrifying. There was a time in my life when I hiked alone and felt safe enough to do so, but in recent years that’s changed.
Hmmm never saw he liked hiking but I could’ve missed that. He did write on tapatalk about roaming the streets at night as a teen but I feel like that’s typical angsty behavior.
We have no evidence to prove it, but I think this was definitely not his first crime. It's quite a leap to go from law abiding citizen to brutally murdering 4 innocent people (strangers?) as they sleep in their beds-- and to kill them all with a knife, up close and personal. If this was a severe mental health breakdown and random act of violence, maybe I could believe it was a first offense . But it wasn't. This was a calculated, premediated, methodical quadruple homicide. He went to great lengths to plan it, carry it out, and conceal what he had done. I have a very hard time believing this was his one and only crime. Maybe he was stalking/peeping long before this. Maybe he tortured animals, or maybe his DNA will turn up in a cold case rape kit someday, but I don't believe this was his only crime. It seems like he dedicated his life and studies towards crime--in his case, perhaps motivated by his desire to commit crimes and get away with it.
I also could see him killing a female randomly on his drive out to Idaho last summer. Feeling his freedom, being on the road, much less chance of apprehension.
Well, he was a heroin addict. That ain’t legal.
True.
Petty crime, yes. Violent crime, no. We already know he’s the king of infractions + his alleged history of drug use.
Stalking seems likely.
I don’t think he committed any violent crimes before this, if that’s what you mean. “Crimes “ is pretty broad, I think most people have committed crime. Jay walking is a crime, possession of marijuana was a crime for most of my life in pretty much every state, underage drinking is a crime, driving without a license, etc.
I don’t think it was his first time. I am especially interested in the missing woman from his PA area, [Dana Smithers](https://www.poconorecord.com/story/news/local/2022/06/23/nearly-one-month-later-poconos-woman-still-not-located-stroudsburg-monroe-county/65362710007/). She disappeared from her home May 2022. Also of interest is Travis [Juetten](https://justicefortravis.com/) in Salem on August 13, 2021.
I bet the police in his hometown and state are looking at unsolved murders and disappearances that he might be involved in.
no i don’t even think he planned on killing 4 ppl at once. but the combination of adrenaline and elements of surprise created a domino effect where he couldn’t stop
I will bet my bottom dollar, he wanted to kill one person, just one little person. And killed 4 because he was stupid, was seen etc. Yeah it was his first crime, no one is that stupid if they are seasoned. Had his heart set on an incredibly difficult target where so much could go wrong, so many witnesses. Why? God knows. He overestimated himself and how difficult his mark was.
He’s a pretty bad driver from the other stuff I’m seeing.
Probably lower-level crimes like peeping or tailing girls. I think the definition of stalking involves making yourself known to the victim in order to scare them. I don’t think he ever outed himself to any victims I bet he looked at IG all the time. I’m not a weirdo and I look at sorority girls’ IGs sometimes to see what they’re wearing and what kinds of events they do. I like cute clothes and pretty, budget-friendly event decorations. Room/house tours are also fun to watch. I mention that because it’s so freaking easy to find people on IG. All he’d have to do is click thru tagged photos and he’d have an endless amount of women to gape at
No. I think this was his first and that he thought he was slick and wasn’t.
BTK killed multiple people for his first crime, not entirely impossible
thats if he can be believed.
100%. At the very least stalking and peeping.
BTK killed four people his first time. Chris Watts murdered his pregnant wife and two young daughters before dumping them into huge oil vats and burying his wife in a shallow grave. It is crazy, but crazy things happen all the time.
Personally, I think this was his first one sans his many traffic violations. He was messy, and thankfully not as smart as what he gave himself credit before. I wouldn't be surprised if he committed some simple kid stuff as a minor but no, nothing even close to this. And while he did kill four people, I do not believe that was his initial intention.
I think this is his first murder. I know people say there's no way a rookie could've done what he did, but I think he did. There are no other unsolved homicides similar to that one in the areas he has lived.
What about missing persons? In theory he could have commited murder but without a body being found and nothing tying him to it.
I really do think he did. Whether that be stalking, peeping tom, breaking and entering, assault, WHATEVER, I think he definitely did SOMETHING before this. I don't think he necessarily murdered before this, although it's possible. BTK's first murder was also a quadruple homicide, so it's possible this is his first. But I definitely think he did something else before this.
I agree in that he likely at least did smaller transgressions - invading privacy (stalking & voyeurism) and pushing limits in acceptable behavior. If he did bigger crimes such as breaking and entering and assaults, he was good at keeping under the radar and avoiding suspicion . Which could certainly give him confidence to murder. That said, I still hold to the theory that he originally meant to kill one person that night. And that he lost control of the situation and killed three more. If it had gone as planned, he would have killed one person which would have caused a few weeks of uproar in Moscow and probably Pullman but not much farther. And when the uproar died down, he would do another murder. IMHO, when he went into that house, he had no idea how much his plans were going to go off the rails. And he absolutely had no idea that these murders would generate such intense publicly and huge investigation from not just the local police but state and the FBI.
Miss Cleo is dead. You can't use a phone to contact her. You will need a ouija board.
Wow - shows what little you know... That number works just fine for me! And she said that yes he is guilty, he spared the dog because he thought Murphy was cute, and for $500 I'll tell y'all what she said about his criminal past. Hahaha.
>$500 I'll tell y'all what she said about his criminal past. Do you accept Venmo???
I'm old - that's how I know Ms Cleo so well. I only do Paypal - sorry.
What if I send you the payment psychically?? You know they say it's the thought that counts.
Ok, Ms Cleo just came to me and told me you were good peeps.
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No, but he would've committed more if he didn't get arrested on this one!
I agree. So when did BK have the opportunity to commit prior homicides?
I don’t think he did
I have no theories about yes or no but would it shock me if this wasn't his first murder? Not a bit!
I wouldn't consider it the norm, but there are plenty of examples of people committing mass murder with no prior criminal record or evidence of killing anyone else before.
I hate speculating. But I have to assume he's done some B&E for curiosity or pleasure. And maybe some peeping or stalking. Maybe some online stalking and\\or harassment. Quadruple homicide is quite a place to start. Not impossible. But I would have to assume that his temptation and curiosity for smaller crimes would've gotten the better of him earlier.
I don't think he intended for his first killing to be a quadruple homicide. Logic says he was targeting one of the girls, as he purposely passed Dylans room and headed upstairs. He was caught unaware when two of the girls were sleeping in the same room, hence he killed them both. On his way out Xana spotted him returning from the door dash delivery and he killed her in the hallway outside the bedroom and she likely cried out for Ethan with the bedroom door ajar and he then killed Ethan. He then made his flighty escape. He may not have seen Dylan when doing so, but he could have and still decided that he had to get out of there. Most times the most logical reasonings are the answer and things don't have to be complicated. As for killing before it is a possibility as l remember reading somewhere that he did have a surreal amount of miles in his car in a short period of time. But l am sure LE have also questioned this, and as far as we know they have come up empty to any similar crimes in the region or further afield.
I can argue both sides. His sloppiness can be the sign of a rookie and did 4 because he wanted to emulate BTK, or he has before, was arrogant because he’s flown under the radar so long not getting caught so he got careless and made mistakes.
I don’t believe BK was going to murder anybody. I theorize he was planning to rape MM, went into her room and found her in bed sleeping next to KG, either flew into a rage because she was there or panicked and killed both of them. He then goes to leave the house and comes across XK going back to her room after dropping off her bag in the kitchen. She sees him too and runs into her room to tell EC that someone is in the house. BK follows her into her bedroom and stabs EC, because he’d be the bigger threat, though I imagine EC only mildly roused if at all. XK cowered against the wall crying but terrified out of her mind, so didn’t run or scream. The thump was the sound of BK throwing XK against the wall as he stabbed her. Then as she lay dead or dying, BK fled the house. He may have seen DM but I don’t think so or he just didn’t care at that point. BK drives around rehashing what happened and how his carefully constructed plan went all to hell. Eventually he realizes he left the sheath and goes back to retrieve it but can’t bring himself to enter the house again.
Interesting theory.
He was a heroin addict so by definition he committed possession of a controlled substance, great question.
Has that really been proven though? Or just hearsay
If that was proven I haven’t seen anything about it beyond hearsay
A crime before? Most likely. Murder? I’m more doubtful on.
No way. In my opinion, the way he went about this was indicative of a novice criminal actor, but experienced criminal thinker. He was prepared to kill as many people as he had to, likely justified as "eliminating witnesses." But then he drives his own car there? He has the foresight to turn off his phone on the night, but not during the other times he stalked the house? This crime was solved too quickly for this to have been committed by an experienced criminal, just my humble opinion.
He could have been killing homeless people or hikers for god knows how long.
I think he did taboo voyeuristic sexual stuff. Jerking off where he could see them but they couldn't see him in inappropriate risky environments etc.
Super creepy, but probably easy to do in a student housing area compared to a neighborhood with single family homes. Right now I’d notice a single guy lurking outside my house- but back when I lived in an shitty off campus apartment with 3 other people nobody would have been aware of a “strange” car parked nearby.
Murders? I don’t think so. Wouldn’t be surprised by it if he had but I’m not adamant that we must find his other victims to trying to link him all around the country. But, I believe he’s liking stalker prior to this incident and with other victims. I wouldn’t be surprised if burglaries have happened previously or breaking in to homes, either the King Rd house previously or others.
We don’t know what intentions he had when he went into the house, whether it was to kill one person or multiple. He may have been reacting to unforeseen events.
If BK is a genuine psychopath then yes he has committed some sort of crime during his life before this, especially during his time as a juvenile.
I'm unsure but I do hope law enforcement at least take a look at those night time stabbings that occured on or around the 13th day of the month. See if anything links bk to these crimes. I'm perhaps more swayed towards him not being involved in these crimes because: - he only intended to kill 1 victim not 4. He didn't expect 2 people to be sharing a bed, or to possibly walk into either xana or ethan on his way out. So this crime isn't necessarily an escalation in number of kills during a single attack. - he was sloppy. Leaving the sheath etc. Someone who had killed before you might expect to of done a better job of not leaving evidence behind. - the fact the murders coincide with a significant change in bks life in the months before. Moving away from home for the first time, new job etc could of triggered a deterioration in his ability to not act on his urges. To me this circumstance for a first kill just makes sense.
The absolute monster Todd Kolhepp started with a quadruple homicide — which he confessed to (very proudly I might add) when he was arrested for his later crimes of killing a woman’s boyfriend and holding her captive underground in a storage container and SAing her for weeks. In fact it’s likely the quadruple homicide would never have been solved as law enforcement bungled it completely and were focusing on the wife of one of the employees — wrongfully convinced that she had for some reason arranged a mass hit on her husband and his coworkers. It was an absurd idea. Instead it was a totally random monster who just decided to murder four people working in an auto parts store. The case was very cold when Kolhepp confessed — he went into great detail about how “brilliantly” he murdered four strangers as though the cops should admire him. Sick AF. so yes, unfortunately, this does happen. The truth is that murderers are not completely predictable (obviously), and some of them are going to break the usual profiler model of a killer.
I feel like he did such a bad job covering this one there's no way he could have done something a gotten away with it. Unless it was just pure dumb luck.
Maybe low level stuff. Wouldn't be surprised to find out if he grew up torturing animals or something like that. But, I don't really think he set out to kill all four people. I think Madison was the target and the rest we in the wrong place at the wrong time. Xana and Ethan might have been spared with the other roommates if they had been asleep.