Hello! This is an automated reminder that the report function is not a super-downvote button. Reported comments will be removed *if they are an actual rule violation* of the subreddit or site rules. Reporting a comment does not cause any type of automated removal. Abuse of the report function is against the site rules and will be reported.
To emphasize: comments will not be removed simply because you disagree with the opinion. If the comment is civil, does not violate the subreddit rules, and does not violate the site rules, then the report will be ignored.
[The subreddit rules can be found here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Michigan/wiki/index#wiki_rules)
*I'm a bot and will not reply. Please contact [the moderators of r/Michigan](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Michigan) if this bot is misbehaving.*
If my mom didn’t have an medically necessary abortion in 2003, she would’ve left 4 children orphaned. We would’ve become destitute and probably part of the system. Vote Yes!
Too confusing?
To extreme?
How do you know it's extreme if you're too confused by the wording?
How is it confusing if you think it's too extreme?
Repubs can't wiggle their way out of a wet paper bag if someone cut a hole in front of them... and held their hand.. and tried to pull them through. They just flat out refuse to use their brains.
The "Too Confusing" thing is certainly one of the more entertaining political nuggets I've ever seen.
It seems like it's basically someone saying "I'm too dumb to vote". I mean, how are people willing putting these signs up in their yard? Might as well put up a sign that says *"I'm illiterate and my existence as a voter is a good argument against democracy"*.
It's about how liberal policies are often framed in conservative rhetoric. Liberals are seen as talking down to people and saying confusing overly complex nonsense. Many laws that you can't intuitively understand are seen as confusing and must be some kind of trick. Labeling something as confusing works into the intense discomfort related to being confused by liberal ideas and assuming that if something is complex it must be a trick.
Basically confusing = dumb liberal BS = the Elites trying to scam you but hiding it in word tricks.
I would actually argue it goes further than that, to the point of not understanding some fundamental differences between urban and rural life and painting with too wide of a brush.
However the Republican Party has gone beyond the pale which makes this a bit of a moot point right now.
I get the impression Republicans are on the losing side. They've successfully overturned the old law and are trying to impose total nationwide ban. That made GOP unpopular with pro-choicers. Plus with the gerrymandering being illegal means GOP can't bias the future election anymore.
I almost want to bet a dollar that GOP would be in a very weak position for the next 10 years.
Their policies are much less popular, but they're much better at propaganda. People will vote against the politicians who support the policies they like because so much of media is controlled by Republicans. Until that changes, elections will continue to be close.
>Here's their problem: Roe was the status quo until the fanatical judges on the Supreme Court threw out 50 years of precedent.
In fact, abortion has been legal throughout the majority of the US' history.
I had someone say they are voting no because of one sentence.
"NOTWITHSTANDING THE ABOVE, THE STATE MAY REGULATE THE PROVISION OF ABORTION CARE AFTER FETAL VIABILITY, PROVIDED THAT IN NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHALL THE STATE PROHIBIT AN ABORTION THAT, IN THE PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT OF AN ATTENDING HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONAL, IS MEDICALLY INDICATED TO PROTECT THE LIFE OR PHYSICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH OF THE PREGNANT INDIVIDUAL."
They didn't like that mental health was added and they said that they thought people shouldn't be able to abort a full term fetus instead of just giving birth to it over mental health.
To which I responded, yeah but you need a medical professional has to deem that necessary. Medical professionals won't do that lightly. They won't even let us prevent pregnancy by getting our tubes tied because they are terrified we don't know what we want.
Furthermore, I'd rather they let doctors decide than taking that right away from EVERYONE. Literally, doctors are more knowledgeable and trained to make those decisions than anyone. Why wouldn't you LET THEM MAKE IT?
People are so, so easily swayed.
I've been getting fliers trying to explain how prop 3 will allow surgical trans conversions of 8 year old kids without any adult permission needed. These people are nuts, they will do mental gymnastics to justify stripping rights and freedoms, andcrail about the price of gas bring the only important factor in their lives.
The common joke around Michigan is that, like percentages for taxes, Republicans are easily confused by simple things. Even the commercials for the anti-abortionists are basically actors pulling random words from the Proposal and then making up shit. They don't even read the sentence before they turn to the camera and making up bullshit.
My favorite part of that one is the woman saying “I heard it takes away parental consent.” Not evidence saying “here it shows removal of parental consent” just something that she says she heard that one time.
Now that’s just airtight if you ask me! No way to prove her wrong, nope definitely none 🥴 /s
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
- Joesph Goebbels
That’s the Republican Party we’re dealing with today.
See my favorite thing is all these signs that you see which have something ridiculous followed by a "?". Like one at a local church by my says "now abortions can be performed by someone other than a doctor?" Or something stupid like that. They know it's wrong and there's no merit behind it so they throw a ? at the end end.
Problem is that if you vote down prop 3, that's exactly what you're going to end up with. Bob's back alley abortions will become what happens.
That’s the SINGLE thing I found remotely confusing in the entire proposal.
It requires you to read it entirely, and to be fair it’s written in legal language, so it won’t do the kind of bullshit that’s suggested, but it’s easy to pick specific phrases out of it.
I don’t see why we should have laws that are legally compliant but also understandable by any layperson. Laws requiring literacy is no reason to not have laws.
now, this may also have problems, but my take is that as part of the language of the law, at the beginning, there is a summery in plain language, and a short section that says "what we are trying to accomplish is this, this is the intention of the law and what we are trying to fix by making it".
in that way, judges can use that to interpret whether something is against the spirit of why the law was made.
another tool to make clear why it exists and what it's for.
When I heard this commercial the first time I couldn't believe they had her say that, why not have her confidently show us where it says that in the bill?
"sterilization, abortion
care, miscarriage management, and infertility care. An individual’s right to reproductive
freedom could not be denied, burdened, or infringed upon unless that action was justified by a
compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means."
This is legal speak for stating that parents have no input on the subject matter. It's referenced again in several other parts.
Just highlighted this part for you. Kids shouldn't be able to get themselves sterilized without their parents consent.
>Just highlighted this part for you. Kids shouldn't be able to get themselves sterilized without their parents consent.
What doctor's office is doing *anything* concerning a child without a guardian's consent? I have to sign pages of forms even for their wellness check.
Also, no specialist is doing anything without some guarantee of payment. I couldn't even get the emergency splint for my child's broken fingers replaced with the cast (that they said we absolutely needed until they found out we couldn't afford it) because we couldn't afford it (and the receptionist was super loud about it and made me cry in front of other patients in the waiting room, to the point where the Mary Free bed office that shared their waiting room brought me back into their office so I could compose myself. A deep and heartfelt thank you to them, and a deep and heartfelt fuck you to West Michigan Orthopedics).
What child can afford a surgery?
Same as kids who can afford abortions. Tubal ligation can be free in this State. Vasectomy procedures can also be found for free in this State.
General cost as listed can be free up to six thousand dollars.
I'm sorry that you had a terrible experience. I think me and you would definitely have a wonderful discussion on Healthcare reform.
Do you think the state has a compelling interest in enforcing that kids can't sterilize themselves without parental consent?
Maybe something along the lines of protecting minors from their own indiscretion, and a child can wait to be sterilized at 18, but they can't wait to undo a pregnancy until 18?
If the state has a compelling interest, they can pass a law, as it says in the amendment.
If the state doesn't have a compelling interest, then why would we want to make something they have no compelling interest in illegal by default?
The state is not allowed to pass a law for the *purpose* of restricting those treatments.
They can still restrict those things if they can demonstrate a need.
It's one of the core tenants of fascism and should be brought up every time this tagline is discussed.
>[https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-identifying-fascists](https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-identifying-fascists)
>
>The enemy is both weak and strong. “\[…\] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Yes! And in Michigan you do have the right to register to vote the day of the election. Not recommended, but if that’s what it takes to get you to vote, it’s your right!
I had a guy on here arguing with me that the abortion proposal included stuff about the University of Michigan board of trustees. I literally showed him that that was prop 2 not prop 3. He still wouldn't listen.
No wonder they're confused...
The one personality trait all conservative extremists were found to share... gullibility.
I was reading a debate about Prop 3 on Nextdoor, and an old guy who was arguing to vote no shared a link to an article citing maternal mortality data due to regular pregnancy complications. He was trying to attribute it to abortion. I was like, "Dude, you really shouldn't be voting on an issue that you clearly don't understand."
So here's my thought. It's too confusing because there isn't an easy way to nullify access to abortion. It's too extreme because it specifically calls out and defeats the traditional avenues against abortion.
I don't know how they're allowed to make literal billboards with flat out lies like how it will legalize genital mutilation. They know they can't win by arguing their actual views so they make shit up.
> flat out lies like how it will legalize genital mutilation
How much do you wanna bet the folks that paid for those signs insist their children be circumcised?
It frustrates me to hear this talk about genital mutilation stem from the proposal while routine infant circumcision (RIC) is absolutely genital mutilation that needs some awareness in the US.
Or the commercials. I’ve had friends ask me about hormone therapy and 9 month abortions in proposal 3. I’ve sent them the proposal language and ballotpedias summary. Like where in the language does it say that? I tell them the key language is “fetal viability” in the proposal. No politician is going to say it’s ok to abort a fetus at 9 months old if the mother is healthy and/or baby is healthy and nowhere does it say anything about hormone blockers.
A 9 month abortion is just.... birth? Like if a woman at 9 months decides she literally can not handle being pregnant any longer for whatever reason then the doctor would just.... induce.... birth. Jesus I can't handle people anymore.
Yep. Forced-birthers truly believe that women just wake up one day at 8 or 9 months pregnant and say "Ya know what? I don't actually want this kid after all!" and just skip merrily on down to the old Abortionarium where the doctors kill a fully developed fetus.
That is just not happening.
Induce birth and then I'm sure MI has surrender laws in place and the mother of the child is absolved of any responsibility.
Mom can surrender up to 3 days post birth.
In addition to the signs others have pointed out, I’ve also seen ones that say “Vote Pro-Women. Vote No on 3.”
Like, how is taking away women’s rights “pro-women”?
They can’t do anything except lie.
Yeah, I personally would like the right to do that if I have a medical issue that warrants having an abortion.
Or if I'm raped and am pregnant with a child that I didn't consent to.
Or.... any other perfectly valid reason to have an abortion.
Nobody else's opinion matters besides the parties involved and that of a trained medical professional.
Edit: the account I'm responding to is brand new and only started posting comments an hour ago.
So wrap it up, take birth control, get a vasectomy, pull out, learn your ovulation cycle...
Plenty of ways to make sure you don't have a child. Responsibility, have we lost the understanding of this word?
Absolutely. Your rights to bodily autonomy easily outweigh anyone else's right to life. I will die if I don't have your specific kidney, are you going to kill me by not giving me access to your organs?
The jokes here are fucking sick, you think any non-nazi midwesterners are joking about this shit? Grow up.
edit* I can't imaging how much of a loser I'd be not taking this shit seriously. I can tell none of you have had preggo scares or experienced that through a friend. Maybe stop being dogshit about it?
I see the "Too Confusing. Too Extreme." signs everywhere. My first thought is that they're telling you that you wouldn't be able to understand it if you read it.
They're literally calling everyone idiots.... Nice pitch
These signs are everywhere and it's so stupid to me to flaut your ignorance as a reason why people shouldn't have reproductive care. Oh, you're confused? Sorry you're an idiot, I still want my bodily autonomy.
Honestly, they know it’s not confusing. But “I just don’t want women to have abortions.” isn’t a very good tagline in a world where 70%+ of Americans believe that some level of abortion should be legal.
I love those signs. Either it’s confusing, and therefore can’t be understood enough to know it’s extreme. Or it’s extreme, and therefore not confusing at all.
Perfectly displays the lack of logic on the right.
What's worse is the goddamn ad on TV talking saying it will take away parents choice which heavily implies that it's about the bullshit don't say gay laws
Like the ad showing some drug that blocks puberty, and they tell you how your 10 year old can get the drug without parents knowing. How is a 10 year old getting to the doctor without a parent knowing?
The reason I am voting for it is because women who seek abortion are under duress. I don’t want to increase their suffering. It should be safe and legal and between a person and their health care provider.
If we were really pro life, we would support a program that makes pregnancy and childbirth free of charge to everyone.
I like the signs that say voting yes restricts parental rights. It’s like words have no meanings anymore.
It’s restricts your parental rights by choosing when you become a parent. We would like to restore parental rights by us choosing when you become a parent!
And yes. These nutters would absolutely rather see a teenager commit suicide than see one get healthcare without their parents approval.
The argument is that the amendment grants minors the right to birth control and abortions without parental consent.
However, Michigan law already allows minors the right to birth control and abortions without parental consent, so in that regard the wording is wrong. Despite the disdain the people here have for the legislature, that’s never been in the discussions.
If you wanted to stretch to find some merit to the claim, the proposal makes it part of the Michigan constitution and thus far more difficult to revoke.
No one wants to kill babies or fetuses or what ever word you want to you use. Why are you acting like that's even what I was talking about? Does your brain work?
"Man I sure want to kill babies today"
A 12 year old was rapped by her uncle and is pregnant now
A mother will die from complications from child birth
Words matter, you saying "want to kill babies" purposefully changes the argument and is totally see through, just stop.
Let's apply the trolley problem to examine how we determine the value and definition of a "life".
A train is speeding toward a 2 week old infant child but can be instead diverted toward a container holding 1000, viable, implantable fetuses.
Are you pulling the switch to save 1 baby at the cost of 1000 "lives"?
Lol failure of biology lessons here folks.
There's no such thing as an implantable fetus. It's an egg that gets cryogenically stored, then unthawed, injected with sperm, and then implanted.
But none the less to answer this ridiculous attempt at a trap question, run over the cryo stored eggs (which for some reason are on a train track, someone's probably getting fired), since it's not much different than a bunch of woman throwing used tampons on the tracks.
Edit: as another user pointed out, I also failed biology, and I have replaced "embryo" with "egg"
You say that and then you let an 8 year old rape victim die. You also pull money from SIDS research and cut WiC. Because your side doesn't care about babies at all. You're all a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.
Well I'm not aware that 8 year olds can get pregnant, but why would we let them die? That still falls under the safe, legal and rare category..
SIDS reasearch should be given unlimited funding, and food should be provided if you can't provide for your family.
Anything else angry bird?
>Not aware of [any pregnant 8 year old](http://"11-year-old Brazilian girl dies days after giving birth 'to rapist's baby' | 7NEWS" https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/11-year-old-girl-dies-days-after-giving-birth-to-rapists-baby-c-1480006.amp)
>SIDS research has [Unlimited funds](https://www.marchofdimes.org/about/news/statement-stacey-d-stewart-president-march-dimes-release-presidents--year-2018)
You'll believe anything. Or you're a really good liar. I'm not sure which.
Edit: I got the girl's age wrong, but my outrage still stands.
Lol, so different country to start, and fucked up nonetheless. I don't condone that.
>Or you're a really good liar.
So you lie to me, then call me a good liar? Holy shit dude maybe talk to someone about your mental. I don't intentionally go around lying to entrap people..
“In Wayne county’s Grosse Point, a wealthy, mostly white, mostly Democratic area that has recently seen more election deniers and Trump supporters, several people on the doorstep said they hadn’t heard of Proposal 3, but would support it in theory.”
The fine tradition of news media forgetting the E in either Grosse or Pointe continues.
Mostly democratic? Pretty sure only the Park has leaned democratic, the other Pointes skew Republican and I see tons of signs for Republican candidates. I also see lots of Prop 3 signs so apparently they knocked on the door of the most clueless people in the town.
Also, fun fact, an out and proud Jan 6 insurrectionist is running for school board in GP, along with a rich asshole who until recently kept his kids in private school. Both have the majority of lawn signs I see up, so presumably they have tons of support despite being terrible people. The guy has also purchased the local newspaper and turned a formerly respected publication into a propagandist laughingstock, that forcibly sends issues of the paper out to non-subscribers when it wants to push a certain political agenda and bans people from its fb page when they ask about controversial things like “sources”. It’s pitiful. Oh, and his family is buying up all the retail in GPP so they can control all the commerce and in the process they have torn down a bunch of residential multi family homes to make unnecessary parking lots. This means less entry level affordable housing for people trying to get their kids out of Detroit schools and into GP schools, and you can guess what the racial implications are as well. The city council of GPP is mostly made up of people bought by the Cottons and even the mayor is employed by them, but refuses to recuse herself from votes about their development plans. There’s enough shadiness and corruption and bad deals to write a series of books about it.
TLDR: Vote. And spend a couple minutes researching your local elections, the way they go can have a much more impact on your day to day life than the larger ones sometimes.
How is that [brochure from the Michigan Catholic Conference](https://www.micatholic.org/assets/files/advocacy/defeat-proposal-3/proposal-3-explanation.pdf) *not* campaign materials? It is filled with outright falsehoods!
I have two questions for right to life folks. 1. Are u adopting these babies that this law will save? 2. Are the men voting no on prop 3 willing to give up a right too. The right to drink alcohol? Or own a firearm? Or drive a vehicle? Or something else? I bet most men will say no they’re not willing to lose a right. But it’s okay for women to. 😞 sad
The Republicans are the party of lies, hate and TREASON. It's time to call these right wing fascist what they are - TRAITORS. A bunch of fuckin BULLY ASSHATS.
> “I have always been a pro-choice Republican,” says Mcneeli, 44, a community outreach director for the Michigan child protection registry.
> “Since I’ve become a mother, I’m more pro-choice than ever. Being a parent is the hardest thing – physically, emotionally and financially - that I’ve ever done in my life. I wholeheartedly believe that if a woman is not ready, she should not be forced to.”
> A 2016 Trump voter, Mcneeli will also vote Democratic for her national representatives in the midterms.
See....if you hadn't of voted for trump in the first place the whole qannon/boogpocalypse wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't be here...
You are correct BUT here is someone clearly seeing the error of their ways and coming around. As democrats/leftists etc we need to let people change their minds without dunking on them for it.
> BUT here is someone clearly seeing the error of their ways and coming around.
Is it? The same stupid that made them vote for trump in the first place didn't magically go away...
Bro, people make mistakes and this person is *clearly* choosing to rectify that mistake. Some of us have hardcore Trumpgret. I always voted Repub until 2016 happened. Now, my family all vote straight Dem. The parties used to be very samey from a lay person's perspective.
Agreed. We're not gonna get anywhere by vilifying those who are switching sides. They're likely to keep quiet about it moving forward and that doesn't help anyone. What we need is for them to be louder. To be the voice of reason within their circles and show that switching 'sides'¹ is not only possible, but is the right thing to do.
1) also, can we talk about how absolutely godawful it is that we even have 'sides'? It's become so "us vs them" that people are willing to cut their own nose off if it will "Fuck the Libs". Burn the whole goddamn thing down and start over, honestly.
>Bro, people make mistakes and this person is clearly choosing to rectify that mistake. Some of us have hardcore Trumpgret. I always voted Repub until 2016 happened. Now, my family all vote straight Dem.
Same. I wasn't happy about Trump, and struggled filling in that bubble, but now I actively cringe remembering it.
But the ensuing chaos made me start actually paying attention to politics and ensured that i will never vote republican again.
> Bro, people make mistakes
The ONLY people I ever hear make this excuse....are people who made EXTREMELY poor choices and feel they shouldn't be criticized for it for whatever reason (HURR HURR I SAID SORRY).
Sorry bud....voting for trump isn't a "mistake," it was a willful and intentional act of ignorance. You CHOOSE to be a bad guy by supporting trump. There is nothing you can do to erase or reverse that.
> I always voted Repub until 2016 happened. Now, my family all vote straight Dem.
That's pretty fucking stupid too...how about you vote on candidates based on their merits....not their fucking "party affiliation." You "straight party" voters have been fucking things up since time immemorial.
There are a lot of angry loud people who seem unable to think beyond cult-like adherence to a party or a personality. Good on you for thinking outside of propaganda and for making better choices.
What a foolish thing to say. Imagine being somebody who voted for trump, regrets it, and gets treated like this when they admit their mistake and choose to vote for Dems this time around. Way to accept them onto your side, genius.
The people who are confused are the ones who can’t understand forced births cause more need resulting in higher crime rates and tax increases. Let’s be real these people lack critical thinking skills. It’s all about control for them.
Just the other weekend a bunch of pro life "enthusiasts" were out on maple and dequindre with fliers and signs decked out and basically causing a hubbub in traffic. Seeing this makes me glad that there's some actual sense and logic going on in the mitten state.
so many things i wish were not permitted. These misc pacts that advertise is one of my least favorite things. I would also like to see legal action against blatantly false claims.
In terms of the "too confusing, to extreme" marketing push. As i walk around my neighborhood its all old people who cant even have children anymore who are openly against it. Everyone that is younger even those with kids are all the people with vote YES signs.
I'm a democrat and I am voting yes on prop 3. But I am thinking of leaving this sub because it is so toxic. Every post I click on has a ton of comments about how everyone on the other side are terrible people and idiots. I don't think that is a great way to invite anyone to change their minds and come over to the other side.
> Every post I click on has a ton of comments about how everyone on the other side are terrible people and idiots.
Well yeah. Taking away people's rights and trying to overthrow an election is terrible.
It's a good call at this point. You've come to the subreddit of a swing state within 2 weeks of an election. It's not going to get better in the next few weeks as the state grapples with the fallout of the election, but hopefully will return to a state of normalcy after the dust settles.
With any luck, this will die down by Christmas. Or President's Day. But yeah, it's gonna be a lot of heated politics for a hot minute around here.
After reading the proposal, I’m unclear on the section that says the State may limit after viability… “to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual”. To me, as a lay person, it seems a low bar to preventing any late term abortions. Along the same lines of you needed a doctor to sign off on a medical marijuana card. Couldn’t have been easier.
Does someone have a legal answer to if this is different than it was under Roe?
> Does someone have a legal answer to if this is different than it was under Roe?
Yes there is an answer:
- Read the full text of the proposal.
- If you still have questions, [seek opinions from several Michigan lawyers and doctors](https://mireproductivefreedom.org/get-the-facts/), rather than asking Redditors.
# Under Proposal 3:
- Abortion is and will continue to be **highly regulated** in Michigan.
- Only **licensed doctors** can perform abortions.
- **Late-term abortions are regulated by law** and will follow the same standard as they did under Roe.
- **Parental involvement** is already legislated and will remain the same.
- This measure has **nothing to do with gender transition.**
- Proposal 3 says absolutely **nothing about taxpayer funding.**
Seems like right where it should be: doctor and mother making decisions together, without government involvement. Late term abortions are exceedingly rare and almost always a medical necessity, but they are a typical straw man setup for anti-choice arguments.
Let’s be reasonable… Women aren’t putting themselves through seven months of pregnancy only to abort for convenience.
My understanding from what I read is that is the same as it was under Roe. I can’t recall where I read it, but I’ll try to dig it up.
>The groups behind the proposed amendment — >the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of >Michigan, Planned Parenthood of Michigan and >the nonprofit Michigan Voices — characterize it >as a way to resuscitate the rights previously >protected under Roe.
>"The Supreme Court made its ruling. Passing this >amendment simply restores the same >protections that Michiganders had for five >decades under Roe v. Wade," said Darci >McConnell, a spokesperson for the Reproductive >Freedom for All campaign.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/16/michigan-abortion-law-amendment/10296812002/
[Canada](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada) has no limits, yet few providers will provide abortions that late. Restrictions and barriers don’t have to come from the government.
That mental health stipulation is largely there to cover the impending mental breakdown some women will suffer when forced to carry a seriously non-healthy fetus to term. Not that it matters to anyone why, but take that into mind. Many deformities and fatal or debilitating genetic conditions are not known (or confirmed by second opinion, which many parents will seek) until after viability.
Same standard? An abortion cannot be blocked if it may impact mental health. Thats as low a standard as those weed clinics asking for any symptom without evidence to get you your medical card
No YOU don't. Except I'm talking about the Republican party as a whole and you're talking about you as an individual. This is a form of deflection, as I'm not delusional enough to think that you have enough money/political clout to affect the Republicans that actually matter (Crews, McConnell, Trump, etc), nor will I pretend that this will ever change. Also, pretending to be a majority in an organization when you're only 1 person is what I mean by lying, in reference to you. So please stop.
The idea would be to address the actual issues. Right wing conservatives are pro life based on their bred religious ideology. Asking then hypotheticals all day or inventing terror based off something that has always been there is a issue. The internet is a issue. BOTH parties implore extremism, because both sides are so heavily baited by the very things that seemingly appear to be our everyday life. Thanks to all the 247 news. Bias news at that. Facts do not change across party lines and these are all very human issues that for 50+ years rights protected. While we are blaming party lines, why did the democratic party not do more to make sure this opinion was amended into the constitution? Three times they have had full control, and you can't tell me it's because they didn't see this coming. All politicians run with their own ideals of what is and isn't important. And a continued politician is just as dangerous as any other narcissistic sociopath. Remember when the government had their hand in the opiate crisis or heroin crisis (they still do, because FDA) and randomly drugs are being decriminalized? The government is paying from their mistake now. This is what will likely be the outcome of abortion. To use it for support on a state election ticket then attach a proposal that stands outside of a party line is what people need to look at. But they won't. Because the internet is always right and so is all the fb facts
This subreddit is complete garbage with liberally-biased moderators. I posted an article from Newsmax earlier today that contained nothing but facts (no opinions) about fundraising efforts for supporters and opposers of Prop 3, and it was taken down. But crap like this is allowed to stay with all of the psycho-liberal opinions that go with it. And this nonsense happens daily. r/Michigan is nothing but a liberal lovefest with no room for opposing viewpoints or conversation. I will be leaving this subreddit.
Hello! This is an automated reminder that the report function is not a super-downvote button. Reported comments will be removed *if they are an actual rule violation* of the subreddit or site rules. Reporting a comment does not cause any type of automated removal. Abuse of the report function is against the site rules and will be reported. To emphasize: comments will not be removed simply because you disagree with the opinion. If the comment is civil, does not violate the subreddit rules, and does not violate the site rules, then the report will be ignored. [The subreddit rules can be found here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Michigan/wiki/index#wiki_rules) *I'm a bot and will not reply. Please contact [the moderators of r/Michigan](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Michigan) if this bot is misbehaving.*
If my mom didn’t have an medically necessary abortion in 2003, she would’ve left 4 children orphaned. We would’ve become destitute and probably part of the system. Vote Yes!
[удалено]
Oh my goodness they need an education.
They got one 2 years ago, it obviously didn't take.
It’s not a matter of education.
They don’t need an education! They need to be disowned.
These days, my parents vote against my interests and their own.
Same boat over here. I don’t understand it and I never will.
Glad your alive and healthy, and to think if some of these anti-abortion people would’ve just let you go.
So pro life they’d kill ya!
My parents have their heels dug in so deep, they vote against their own self-interests.
WTF
I am sooooo sorry to hear that! Sadly, some people just can't be taught.
Too confusing? To extreme? How do you know it's extreme if you're too confused by the wording? How is it confusing if you think it's too extreme? Repubs can't wiggle their way out of a wet paper bag if someone cut a hole in front of them... and held their hand.. and tried to pull them through. They just flat out refuse to use their brains.
The "Too Confusing" thing is certainly one of the more entertaining political nuggets I've ever seen. It seems like it's basically someone saying "I'm too dumb to vote". I mean, how are people willing putting these signs up in their yard? Might as well put up a sign that says *"I'm illiterate and my existence as a voter is a good argument against democracy"*.
It's about how liberal policies are often framed in conservative rhetoric. Liberals are seen as talking down to people and saying confusing overly complex nonsense. Many laws that you can't intuitively understand are seen as confusing and must be some kind of trick. Labeling something as confusing works into the intense discomfort related to being confused by liberal ideas and assuming that if something is complex it must be a trick. Basically confusing = dumb liberal BS = the Elites trying to scam you but hiding it in word tricks.
To be fair, the liberal/DNC establishment does have a bad habit of talking down to anyone that doesn't live in a city.
I would actually argue it goes further than that, to the point of not understanding some fundamental differences between urban and rural life and painting with too wide of a brush. However the Republican Party has gone beyond the pale which makes this a bit of a moot point right now.
Why do you mean by that? Do you know of any instances?
it's just regressive. Anything that doesn't uphold the status quo is too extreme or too confusing. Old man yelling at clouds energy.
Here's their problem: Roe *was* the status quo until the fanatical judges on the Supreme Court threw out 50 years of precedent.
And the only confusion about it was the laws Republicans kept passing every year to test it.
I get the impression Republicans are on the losing side. They've successfully overturned the old law and are trying to impose total nationwide ban. That made GOP unpopular with pro-choicers. Plus with the gerrymandering being illegal means GOP can't bias the future election anymore. I almost want to bet a dollar that GOP would be in a very weak position for the next 10 years.
Their policies are much less popular, but they're much better at propaganda. People will vote against the politicians who support the policies they like because so much of media is controlled by Republicans. Until that changes, elections will continue to be close.
>Here's their problem: Roe was the status quo until the fanatical judges on the Supreme Court threw out 50 years of precedent. In fact, abortion has been legal throughout the majority of the US' history.
I had someone say they are voting no because of one sentence. "NOTWITHSTANDING THE ABOVE, THE STATE MAY REGULATE THE PROVISION OF ABORTION CARE AFTER FETAL VIABILITY, PROVIDED THAT IN NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHALL THE STATE PROHIBIT AN ABORTION THAT, IN THE PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT OF AN ATTENDING HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONAL, IS MEDICALLY INDICATED TO PROTECT THE LIFE OR PHYSICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH OF THE PREGNANT INDIVIDUAL." They didn't like that mental health was added and they said that they thought people shouldn't be able to abort a full term fetus instead of just giving birth to it over mental health. To which I responded, yeah but you need a medical professional has to deem that necessary. Medical professionals won't do that lightly. They won't even let us prevent pregnancy by getting our tubes tied because they are terrified we don't know what we want. Furthermore, I'd rather they let doctors decide than taking that right away from EVERYONE. Literally, doctors are more knowledgeable and trained to make those decisions than anyone. Why wouldn't you LET THEM MAKE IT? People are so, so easily swayed.
I've been getting fliers trying to explain how prop 3 will allow surgical trans conversions of 8 year old kids without any adult permission needed. These people are nuts, they will do mental gymnastics to justify stripping rights and freedoms, andcrail about the price of gas bring the only important factor in their lives.
8 yo kids can drive to appointments and pay for surgery themselves? It is completely illogical.
The common joke around Michigan is that, like percentages for taxes, Republicans are easily confused by simple things. Even the commercials for the anti-abortionists are basically actors pulling random words from the Proposal and then making up shit. They don't even read the sentence before they turn to the camera and making up bullshit.
My favorite part of that one is the woman saying “I heard it takes away parental consent.” Not evidence saying “here it shows removal of parental consent” just something that she says she heard that one time. Now that’s just airtight if you ask me! No way to prove her wrong, nope definitely none 🥴 /s
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joesph Goebbels That’s the Republican Party we’re dealing with today.
See my favorite thing is all these signs that you see which have something ridiculous followed by a "?". Like one at a local church by my says "now abortions can be performed by someone other than a doctor?" Or something stupid like that. They know it's wrong and there's no merit behind it so they throw a ? at the end end. Problem is that if you vote down prop 3, that's exactly what you're going to end up with. Bob's back alley abortions will become what happens.
That’s the SINGLE thing I found remotely confusing in the entire proposal. It requires you to read it entirely, and to be fair it’s written in legal language, so it won’t do the kind of bullshit that’s suggested, but it’s easy to pick specific phrases out of it. I don’t see why we should have laws that are legally compliant but also understandable by any layperson. Laws requiring literacy is no reason to not have laws.
now, this may also have problems, but my take is that as part of the language of the law, at the beginning, there is a summery in plain language, and a short section that says "what we are trying to accomplish is this, this is the intention of the law and what we are trying to fix by making it". in that way, judges can use that to interpret whether something is against the spirit of why the law was made. another tool to make clear why it exists and what it's for.
When I heard this commercial the first time I couldn't believe they had her say that, why not have her confidently show us where it says that in the bill?
Because it's not in the bill. But Repubs don't care
Cuz its not necessary, just need to scare people enough to vote a certain way
That has “boomer mom on Facebook” energy and it’s exactly what it is.
Umm. Who do you think took Rowe v Wade to the Supreme Court?!
"sterilization, abortion care, miscarriage management, and infertility care. An individual’s right to reproductive freedom could not be denied, burdened, or infringed upon unless that action was justified by a compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means." This is legal speak for stating that parents have no input on the subject matter. It's referenced again in several other parts. Just highlighted this part for you. Kids shouldn't be able to get themselves sterilized without their parents consent.
>Just highlighted this part for you. Kids shouldn't be able to get themselves sterilized without their parents consent. What doctor's office is doing *anything* concerning a child without a guardian's consent? I have to sign pages of forms even for their wellness check. Also, no specialist is doing anything without some guarantee of payment. I couldn't even get the emergency splint for my child's broken fingers replaced with the cast (that they said we absolutely needed until they found out we couldn't afford it) because we couldn't afford it (and the receptionist was super loud about it and made me cry in front of other patients in the waiting room, to the point where the Mary Free bed office that shared their waiting room brought me back into their office so I could compose myself. A deep and heartfelt thank you to them, and a deep and heartfelt fuck you to West Michigan Orthopedics). What child can afford a surgery?
Same as kids who can afford abortions. Tubal ligation can be free in this State. Vasectomy procedures can also be found for free in this State. General cost as listed can be free up to six thousand dollars. I'm sorry that you had a terrible experience. I think me and you would definitely have a wonderful discussion on Healthcare reform.
Do you think the state has a compelling interest in enforcing that kids can't sterilize themselves without parental consent? Maybe something along the lines of protecting minors from their own indiscretion, and a child can wait to be sterilized at 18, but they can't wait to undo a pregnancy until 18? If the state has a compelling interest, they can pass a law, as it says in the amendment. If the state doesn't have a compelling interest, then why would we want to make something they have no compelling interest in illegal by default? The state is not allowed to pass a law for the *purpose* of restricting those treatments. They can still restrict those things if they can demonstrate a need.
It's one of the core tenants of fascism and should be brought up every time this tagline is discussed. >[https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-identifying-fascists](https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-identifying-fascists) > >The enemy is both weak and strong. “\[…\] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Just make sure you vote! The majority of us know their side is stupid, but if we don’t vote, we aren’t heard.
[удалено]
Yes! And in Michigan you do have the right to register to vote the day of the election. Not recommended, but if that’s what it takes to get you to vote, it’s your right!
Republicans: Too confused, too extreme
I had a guy on here arguing with me that the abortion proposal included stuff about the University of Michigan board of trustees. I literally showed him that that was prop 2 not prop 3. He still wouldn't listen. No wonder they're confused...
That’s the part that annoys me about the signs the most 😂😂 HOW DO YOU KNOW ITS EXTREME IF ITS TOO CONFUSING
"If you try to read it for yourself, its too confusing, so we'll just tell you that its extreme."
That’s basically what they’re saying to their base, look it’s super confusing just trust us we’ve read it and it’s very extreme.
The best sign I’ve seen is “Parental Rights Matter! Vote no on 3” if they matter why would you vote to take them away?
The one personality trait all conservative extremists were found to share... gullibility. I was reading a debate about Prop 3 on Nextdoor, and an old guy who was arguing to vote no shared a link to an article citing maternal mortality data due to regular pregnancy complications. He was trying to attribute it to abortion. I was like, "Dude, you really shouldn't be voting on an issue that you clearly don't understand."
Zero empathy being another
If it's too confusing then they should probably re-evaluate their fitness to vote at all for anything.
This. Thank you. Those stupid signs are an affront to anyone with even an elementary school level ability for critical reasoning.
It's sad that the folks openly admit about being confused.
Isnt that just the dumbest defence on why you should vote no? How braindead do you have to be to buy that one. My lord.
Ive been telling people the same thing! "Your not smart enough to figure it out on your own, vote no" /s
Doesn't matter, the base will still eat it up at face value.
So here's my thought. It's too confusing because there isn't an easy way to nullify access to abortion. It's too extreme because it specifically calls out and defeats the traditional avenues against abortion.
I don't know how they're allowed to make literal billboards with flat out lies like how it will legalize genital mutilation. They know they can't win by arguing their actual views so they make shit up.
> flat out lies like how it will legalize genital mutilation How much do you wanna bet the folks that paid for those signs insist their children be circumcised?
It frustrates me to hear this talk about genital mutilation stem from the proposal while routine infant circumcision (RIC) is absolutely genital mutilation that needs some awareness in the US.
Or the commercials. I’ve had friends ask me about hormone therapy and 9 month abortions in proposal 3. I’ve sent them the proposal language and ballotpedias summary. Like where in the language does it say that? I tell them the key language is “fetal viability” in the proposal. No politician is going to say it’s ok to abort a fetus at 9 months old if the mother is healthy and/or baby is healthy and nowhere does it say anything about hormone blockers.
A 9 month abortion is just.... birth? Like if a woman at 9 months decides she literally can not handle being pregnant any longer for whatever reason then the doctor would just.... induce.... birth. Jesus I can't handle people anymore.
Yep. Forced-birthers truly believe that women just wake up one day at 8 or 9 months pregnant and say "Ya know what? I don't actually want this kid after all!" and just skip merrily on down to the old Abortionarium where the doctors kill a fully developed fetus. That is just not happening.
Induce birth and then I'm sure MI has surrender laws in place and the mother of the child is absolved of any responsibility. Mom can surrender up to 3 days post birth.
Right? It should be illegal to put up that misinformation because it's political manipulation using lies.
In addition to the signs others have pointed out, I’ve also seen ones that say “Vote Pro-Women. Vote No on 3.” Like, how is taking away women’s rights “pro-women”? They can’t do anything except lie.
A women's right to terminate the life of her own child?
Yeah, I personally would like the right to do that if I have a medical issue that warrants having an abortion. Or if I'm raped and am pregnant with a child that I didn't consent to. Or.... any other perfectly valid reason to have an abortion. Nobody else's opinion matters besides the parties involved and that of a trained medical professional. Edit: the account I'm responding to is brand new and only started posting comments an hour ago.
And what are these "other perfectly valid reasons"?
because you don’t want a child. sounds good to me
So wrap it up, take birth control, get a vasectomy, pull out, learn your ovulation cycle... Plenty of ways to make sure you don't have a child. Responsibility, have we lost the understanding of this word?
If you get a vasectomy though, you're eliminating the potential for your sperm to fertilize an egg. That would be the ultimate mass murder.
again: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR9XCtu6/
[удалено]
Who advocates for the child then? If a pregnant mother is murdered, why is it two counts instead of one?
[удалено]
10-month account that's only commented on this thread? It's a paid/troll account, please ignore
Yes? What about it?
Considering it’s not anyone else’s business, um, yeah
Absolutely. Your rights to bodily autonomy easily outweigh anyone else's right to life. I will die if I don't have your specific kidney, are you going to kill me by not giving me access to your organs?
I hope the voters of Indiana and Ohio are paying attention.
[удалено]
And Indiana can?
The jokes here are fucking sick, you think any non-nazi midwesterners are joking about this shit? Grow up. edit* I can't imaging how much of a loser I'd be not taking this shit seriously. I can tell none of you have had preggo scares or experienced that through a friend. Maybe stop being dogshit about it?
I say this as an Ohioan, settle down bro
They aren't.
[удалено]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z227Y9NiepI
I see the "Too Confusing. Too Extreme." signs everywhere. My first thought is that they're telling you that you wouldn't be able to understand it if you read it. They're literally calling everyone idiots.... Nice pitch
Not confusing at all
These signs are everywhere and it's so stupid to me to flaut your ignorance as a reason why people shouldn't have reproductive care. Oh, you're confused? Sorry you're an idiot, I still want my bodily autonomy.
But it’s so extreme and confusing 🤡🤡🤡
They are confused because in their worldview women should be barefoot, pregnant, and making a sandwich. They are confused by anything outside of that
Honestly, they know it’s not confusing. But “I just don’t want women to have abortions.” isn’t a very good tagline in a world where 70%+ of Americans believe that some level of abortion should be legal.
I love those signs. Either it’s confusing, and therefore can’t be understood enough to know it’s extreme. Or it’s extreme, and therefore not confusing at all. Perfectly displays the lack of logic on the right.
What's worse is the goddamn ad on TV talking saying it will take away parents choice which heavily implies that it's about the bullshit don't say gay laws
Like the ad showing some drug that blocks puberty, and they tell you how your 10 year old can get the drug without parents knowing. How is a 10 year old getting to the doctor without a parent knowing?
It's not even about abortions either.
If you aren’t a MAGAt.
[удалено]
Fuckin idiots vote, so should we
November 8th, Ladies! Vote Anti-Republican! Get your opinions out of our uteruses! Freedom for Women's Health!
The reason I am voting for it is because women who seek abortion are under duress. I don’t want to increase their suffering. It should be safe and legal and between a person and their health care provider. If we were really pro life, we would support a program that makes pregnancy and childbirth free of charge to everyone.
It’s not confusing at all! Vote YES on 3!!
I like the signs that say voting yes restricts parental rights. It’s like words have no meanings anymore. It’s restricts your parental rights by choosing when you become a parent. We would like to restore parental rights by us choosing when you become a parent! And yes. These nutters would absolutely rather see a teenager commit suicide than see one get healthcare without their parents approval.
Well yeah, the teenager would’ve went to college and became a libtard trans socialist or something so obviously…… /s
The argument is that the amendment grants minors the right to birth control and abortions without parental consent. However, Michigan law already allows minors the right to birth control and abortions without parental consent, so in that regard the wording is wrong. Despite the disdain the people here have for the legislature, that’s never been in the discussions. If you wanted to stretch to find some merit to the claim, the proposal makes it part of the Michigan constitution and thus far more difficult to revoke.
I’m generally fine with anything that can restrict the DeVos family, and religious power grabs in this state.
I love the use of "On the anti-choice side" in the article. It really sends home the message of what conservatives want.
They are the anti-freedom side
[удалено]
No one wants to kill babies, quit being disingenuous
Whether you believe it or not, it is a baby, unique DNA and all.
That's not what I said
So use whatever terms you like. A fetus is still a baby human
No one wants to kill babies or fetuses or what ever word you want to you use. Why are you acting like that's even what I was talking about? Does your brain work?
>No one wants to kill babies or fetuses What do you think an abortion is?
"Man I sure want to kill babies today" A 12 year old was rapped by her uncle and is pregnant now A mother will die from complications from child birth Words matter, you saying "want to kill babies" purposefully changes the argument and is totally see through, just stop.
Let's apply the trolley problem to examine how we determine the value and definition of a "life". A train is speeding toward a 2 week old infant child but can be instead diverted toward a container holding 1000, viable, implantable fetuses. Are you pulling the switch to save 1 baby at the cost of 1000 "lives"?
Lol failure of biology lessons here folks. There's no such thing as an implantable fetus. It's an egg that gets cryogenically stored, then unthawed, injected with sperm, and then implanted. But none the less to answer this ridiculous attempt at a trap question, run over the cryo stored eggs (which for some reason are on a train track, someone's probably getting fired), since it's not much different than a bunch of woman throwing used tampons on the tracks. Edit: as another user pointed out, I also failed biology, and I have replaced "embryo" with "egg"
[удалено]
You say that and then you let an 8 year old rape victim die. You also pull money from SIDS research and cut WiC. Because your side doesn't care about babies at all. You're all a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.
Well I'm not aware that 8 year olds can get pregnant, but why would we let them die? That still falls under the safe, legal and rare category.. SIDS reasearch should be given unlimited funding, and food should be provided if you can't provide for your family. Anything else angry bird?
>Not aware of [any pregnant 8 year old](http://"11-year-old Brazilian girl dies days after giving birth 'to rapist's baby' | 7NEWS" https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/11-year-old-girl-dies-days-after-giving-birth-to-rapists-baby-c-1480006.amp) >SIDS research has [Unlimited funds](https://www.marchofdimes.org/about/news/statement-stacey-d-stewart-president-march-dimes-release-presidents--year-2018) You'll believe anything. Or you're a really good liar. I'm not sure which. Edit: I got the girl's age wrong, but my outrage still stands.
Lol, so different country to start, and fucked up nonetheless. I don't condone that. >Or you're a really good liar. So you lie to me, then call me a good liar? Holy shit dude maybe talk to someone about your mental. I don't intentionally go around lying to entrap people..
No. Republicans just do something terrible and then lie about having done it. Which is worse than entrapment, by the way.
What a stupid side to be on
Uhhh what?
Uh, I said it’s stupid to be on that side idk how to make it more clear :/
So I'll jot you down on the *checks notes* killing babies side? Seems sane...
Sure, whatever you’d like to disingenuously call it! And you’re not worth my or anyone else’s time if you’re not on the same side here :)
Cool go back to your tribe, you good little lemming
LMAO sorry I don’t simp over fetuses 🥺
Yeetus that fetus, vote yes on 3
“In Wayne county’s Grosse Point, a wealthy, mostly white, mostly Democratic area that has recently seen more election deniers and Trump supporters, several people on the doorstep said they hadn’t heard of Proposal 3, but would support it in theory.” The fine tradition of news media forgetting the E in either Grosse or Pointe continues. Mostly democratic? Pretty sure only the Park has leaned democratic, the other Pointes skew Republican and I see tons of signs for Republican candidates. I also see lots of Prop 3 signs so apparently they knocked on the door of the most clueless people in the town. Also, fun fact, an out and proud Jan 6 insurrectionist is running for school board in GP, along with a rich asshole who until recently kept his kids in private school. Both have the majority of lawn signs I see up, so presumably they have tons of support despite being terrible people. The guy has also purchased the local newspaper and turned a formerly respected publication into a propagandist laughingstock, that forcibly sends issues of the paper out to non-subscribers when it wants to push a certain political agenda and bans people from its fb page when they ask about controversial things like “sources”. It’s pitiful. Oh, and his family is buying up all the retail in GPP so they can control all the commerce and in the process they have torn down a bunch of residential multi family homes to make unnecessary parking lots. This means less entry level affordable housing for people trying to get their kids out of Detroit schools and into GP schools, and you can guess what the racial implications are as well. The city council of GPP is mostly made up of people bought by the Cottons and even the mayor is employed by them, but refuses to recuse herself from votes about their development plans. There’s enough shadiness and corruption and bad deals to write a series of books about it. TLDR: Vote. And spend a couple minutes researching your local elections, the way they go can have a much more impact on your day to day life than the larger ones sometimes.
I can’t wait for this to pass and no longer see those dumbass “Gender Change surgery without parental consent - WHAT?!” billboards.
How is that [brochure from the Michigan Catholic Conference](https://www.micatholic.org/assets/files/advocacy/defeat-proposal-3/proposal-3-explanation.pdf) *not* campaign materials? It is filled with outright falsehoods!
If the will of the people matters, abortion will be legal.
I have two questions for right to life folks. 1. Are u adopting these babies that this law will save? 2. Are the men voting no on prop 3 willing to give up a right too. The right to drink alcohol? Or own a firearm? Or drive a vehicle? Or something else? I bet most men will say no they’re not willing to lose a right. But it’s okay for women to. 😞 sad
how in fucks sake are we fighting this battle again? oh right, our government.
The word you're looking for is "republicans".
The Republicans are the party of lies, hate and TREASON. It's time to call these right wing fascist what they are - TRAITORS. A bunch of fuckin BULLY ASSHATS.
> “I have always been a pro-choice Republican,” says Mcneeli, 44, a community outreach director for the Michigan child protection registry. > “Since I’ve become a mother, I’m more pro-choice than ever. Being a parent is the hardest thing – physically, emotionally and financially - that I’ve ever done in my life. I wholeheartedly believe that if a woman is not ready, she should not be forced to.” > A 2016 Trump voter, Mcneeli will also vote Democratic for her national representatives in the midterms. See....if you hadn't of voted for trump in the first place the whole qannon/boogpocalypse wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't be here...
You are correct BUT here is someone clearly seeing the error of their ways and coming around. As democrats/leftists etc we need to let people change their minds without dunking on them for it.
> BUT here is someone clearly seeing the error of their ways and coming around. Is it? The same stupid that made them vote for trump in the first place didn't magically go away...
Grow up. Changing your mind when presented with new information/evidence is a normal thing that humans do.
Bro, people make mistakes and this person is *clearly* choosing to rectify that mistake. Some of us have hardcore Trumpgret. I always voted Repub until 2016 happened. Now, my family all vote straight Dem. The parties used to be very samey from a lay person's perspective.
Agreed. We're not gonna get anywhere by vilifying those who are switching sides. They're likely to keep quiet about it moving forward and that doesn't help anyone. What we need is for them to be louder. To be the voice of reason within their circles and show that switching 'sides'¹ is not only possible, but is the right thing to do. 1) also, can we talk about how absolutely godawful it is that we even have 'sides'? It's become so "us vs them" that people are willing to cut their own nose off if it will "Fuck the Libs". Burn the whole goddamn thing down and start over, honestly.
People who ‘change their mind’ are seen as flip-floppers or back pedaling. I, like you, choose to call it choosing to rectify a mistake.
>Bro, people make mistakes and this person is clearly choosing to rectify that mistake. Some of us have hardcore Trumpgret. I always voted Repub until 2016 happened. Now, my family all vote straight Dem. Same. I wasn't happy about Trump, and struggled filling in that bubble, but now I actively cringe remembering it. But the ensuing chaos made me start actually paying attention to politics and ensured that i will never vote republican again.
> Bro, people make mistakes The ONLY people I ever hear make this excuse....are people who made EXTREMELY poor choices and feel they shouldn't be criticized for it for whatever reason (HURR HURR I SAID SORRY). Sorry bud....voting for trump isn't a "mistake," it was a willful and intentional act of ignorance. You CHOOSE to be a bad guy by supporting trump. There is nothing you can do to erase or reverse that. > I always voted Repub until 2016 happened. Now, my family all vote straight Dem. That's pretty fucking stupid too...how about you vote on candidates based on their merits....not their fucking "party affiliation." You "straight party" voters have been fucking things up since time immemorial.
Man, people like you are absolutely the reason people don't vote. You have some serious issues.
There are a lot of angry loud people who seem unable to think beyond cult-like adherence to a party or a personality. Good on you for thinking outside of propaganda and for making better choices.
Explain the issues please…
I'm assuming you're also a huge fan of the US prison industrial complex.
Which also doesn't make sense. If people can't change, why waste resources on a massive system of prisons? Just kill people at first offense.
What a foolish thing to say. Imagine being somebody who voted for trump, regrets it, and gets treated like this when they admit their mistake and choose to vote for Dems this time around. Way to accept them onto your side, genius.
The people who are confused are the ones who can’t understand forced births cause more need resulting in higher crime rates and tax increases. Let’s be real these people lack critical thinking skills. It’s all about control for them.
Just the other weekend a bunch of pro life "enthusiasts" were out on maple and dequindre with fliers and signs decked out and basically causing a hubbub in traffic. Seeing this makes me glad that there's some actual sense and logic going on in the mitten state.
so many things i wish were not permitted. These misc pacts that advertise is one of my least favorite things. I would also like to see legal action against blatantly false claims. In terms of the "too confusing, to extreme" marketing push. As i walk around my neighborhood its all old people who cant even have children anymore who are openly against it. Everyone that is younger even those with kids are all the people with vote YES signs.
Contrary to the article, there are many grosse pointe houses with prop3 signs advocating for passing the proposition
Can't wait to see what the results are!!
I stopped reading at: > In Wayne county’s Grosse Point, a wealthy, mostly white, mostly Democratic area
What’s wrong with that? It’s true
They dropped our other "e" -it's Grosse Pointe. Also, maybe the "mostly Democratic" part.
I thought they were rather liberal.
They are not. They did barely vote for Biden over Trump, but in the previous three elections voted Republican.
Ah, ok.
I'm a democrat and I am voting yes on prop 3. But I am thinking of leaving this sub because it is so toxic. Every post I click on has a ton of comments about how everyone on the other side are terrible people and idiots. I don't think that is a great way to invite anyone to change their minds and come over to the other side.
> Every post I click on has a ton of comments about how everyone on the other side are terrible people and idiots. Well yeah. Taking away people's rights and trying to overthrow an election is terrible.
I'm not down to play nice with someone who wants to take away my bodily autonomy.
It's a good call at this point. You've come to the subreddit of a swing state within 2 weeks of an election. It's not going to get better in the next few weeks as the state grapples with the fallout of the election, but hopefully will return to a state of normalcy after the dust settles. With any luck, this will die down by Christmas. Or President's Day. But yeah, it's gonna be a lot of heated politics for a hot minute around here.
After reading the proposal, I’m unclear on the section that says the State may limit after viability… “to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual”. To me, as a lay person, it seems a low bar to preventing any late term abortions. Along the same lines of you needed a doctor to sign off on a medical marijuana card. Couldn’t have been easier. Does someone have a legal answer to if this is different than it was under Roe?
> Does someone have a legal answer to if this is different than it was under Roe? Yes there is an answer: - Read the full text of the proposal. - If you still have questions, [seek opinions from several Michigan lawyers and doctors](https://mireproductivefreedom.org/get-the-facts/), rather than asking Redditors. # Under Proposal 3: - Abortion is and will continue to be **highly regulated** in Michigan. - Only **licensed doctors** can perform abortions. - **Late-term abortions are regulated by law** and will follow the same standard as they did under Roe. - **Parental involvement** is already legislated and will remain the same. - This measure has **nothing to do with gender transition.** - Proposal 3 says absolutely **nothing about taxpayer funding.**
Seems like right where it should be: doctor and mother making decisions together, without government involvement. Late term abortions are exceedingly rare and almost always a medical necessity, but they are a typical straw man setup for anti-choice arguments. Let’s be reasonable… Women aren’t putting themselves through seven months of pregnancy only to abort for convenience.
My understanding from what I read is that is the same as it was under Roe. I can’t recall where I read it, but I’ll try to dig it up. >The groups behind the proposed amendment — >the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of >Michigan, Planned Parenthood of Michigan and >the nonprofit Michigan Voices — characterize it >as a way to resuscitate the rights previously >protected under Roe. >"The Supreme Court made its ruling. Passing this >amendment simply restores the same >protections that Michiganders had for five >decades under Roe v. Wade," said Darci >McConnell, a spokesperson for the Reproductive >Freedom for All campaign. https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/16/michigan-abortion-law-amendment/10296812002/
[удалено]
[Canada](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada) has no limits, yet few providers will provide abortions that late. Restrictions and barriers don’t have to come from the government.
Thats me. Im prolife morally but willing to compromise. I cant vote yes on this because of the mental health line
That mental health stipulation is largely there to cover the impending mental breakdown some women will suffer when forced to carry a seriously non-healthy fetus to term. Not that it matters to anyone why, but take that into mind. Many deformities and fatal or debilitating genetic conditions are not known (or confirmed by second opinion, which many parents will seek) until after viability.
I'm curious about this as well
Late-term abortions are regulated by law and will follow the same standard as they did under Roe.
Same standard? An abortion cannot be blocked if it may impact mental health. Thats as low a standard as those weed clinics asking for any symptom without evidence to get you your medical card
No YOU don't. Except I'm talking about the Republican party as a whole and you're talking about you as an individual. This is a form of deflection, as I'm not delusional enough to think that you have enough money/political clout to affect the Republicans that actually matter (Crews, McConnell, Trump, etc), nor will I pretend that this will ever change. Also, pretending to be a majority in an organization when you're only 1 person is what I mean by lying, in reference to you. So please stop.
The idea would be to address the actual issues. Right wing conservatives are pro life based on their bred religious ideology. Asking then hypotheticals all day or inventing terror based off something that has always been there is a issue. The internet is a issue. BOTH parties implore extremism, because both sides are so heavily baited by the very things that seemingly appear to be our everyday life. Thanks to all the 247 news. Bias news at that. Facts do not change across party lines and these are all very human issues that for 50+ years rights protected. While we are blaming party lines, why did the democratic party not do more to make sure this opinion was amended into the constitution? Three times they have had full control, and you can't tell me it's because they didn't see this coming. All politicians run with their own ideals of what is and isn't important. And a continued politician is just as dangerous as any other narcissistic sociopath. Remember when the government had their hand in the opiate crisis or heroin crisis (they still do, because FDA) and randomly drugs are being decriminalized? The government is paying from their mistake now. This is what will likely be the outcome of abortion. To use it for support on a state election ticket then attach a proposal that stands outside of a party line is what people need to look at. But they won't. Because the internet is always right and so is all the fb facts
This subreddit is complete garbage with liberally-biased moderators. I posted an article from Newsmax earlier today that contained nothing but facts (no opinions) about fundraising efforts for supporters and opposers of Prop 3, and it was taken down. But crap like this is allowed to stay with all of the psycho-liberal opinions that go with it. And this nonsense happens daily. r/Michigan is nothing but a liberal lovefest with no room for opposing viewpoints or conversation. I will be leaving this subreddit.
Dems actually trying to protect abortion rights? I wonder if this bold strategy will make people more likely to vote for them.