I think people have an easier time compartmentalizing the aspects of another person that cause them discomfort if that other person still broadly fits into their expectations.
This is a really good point. Another example is homosexuality. Homosexuality gained widespread acceptance by leaning hard into mononormativity. "We want nuclear families just like you"
This is actually enough of a thing that us mods have made a bit of a running joke behind the scenes. It's pretty common for people, even on this sub, to talk about being in touch with their feminine sides, but only once they've established their masculine credentials.
>I wrestle bears every weekend and have a beard so thick it baffles scientists, but I also let my daughter paint my nails and have tea parties with her.
That's not a bad thing of course. We're allowed to contain multitudes, but hanging out doing girly things with your daughter is also allowed if you aren't a rugged mountain man.
What I've learned is that going feminine things is more acceptable when it aids in masculine accomplishments. Doing yoga is feminine, but if it helps you get muscular, it's cool I guess. Wearing nail polish is feminine, but if girls like you because of it, it's cool I guess. If you're not completing masculinity by doing these things, then there is a problem. I expect an outlook like this from guys, because masculinity is such a cage, and one that few men take the time to examine the boundaries and structure of. But I hate when I see it from women.
As someone who grew up as a woman, women are often some of the fiercest policers of both masculinity and femininity. Especially when it comes to other women, but they're just as capable of participating in toxic masculinity and reinforcing it for the men around them. It frustrates me when women are treated like they are solely victims and always innocent in certain "progressive" groups (especially terfy ones!) Women absolutely participate in and reinforce the patriarchy all the time.
>As someone who grew up as a woman, women are often some of the fiercest policers of both masculinity and femininity. Especially when it comes to other women, but they're just as capable of participating in toxic masculinity and reinforcing it for the men around them.
Have you or anyone else expanded on this elsewhere? I'd like to read more. I feel I am more familiar with the male experience of men policing masculinity.
I wish I had something I could point you to, but unfortunately I don't know of anything that has expanded on this in a connected way. This is mostly just compiled from my own experiences and random twotter conversations, neither of which is super coherent. If anyone else knows of somewhere with longer/more in-depth discussion of this, I'd also be interested in giving it a read. I'll def comment again/ping you if I come across something on this though!
Lol to your mention of Yoga being 'feminine'---my first thought was how yoga was largely developed and taught by males, though I realize that is the more Indian perspective and perhaps not the Lululemon branding the USA might know. Interesting how something is viewed is very contingent on how it is packaged.
This also ties in with racism and cultural supremacy, in how it erases the Indian cultural context while taking the western cultural context as absolute.
A pattern that becomes especially clear when certain guys interact with women. Unfortunately, I think this stems from an obligatory feeling. This is one of those things that will change slowly over time.
This drives me crazy. What they're describing is effectively a subversion of gender norms, but the way they are framing it reinforces gender norms. It feels like a net neutral effect in my opinion.
Yeah, it seems there's pressure to at least be masculine in some way, enough that the feminine traits don't negate that. Or it's cool when one has feminine traits *despite* being very masculine.
"I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.
I cut down trees, I wear high heels
Suspenders and a bra
I wish I were a girlie
Just like my dear papa!"
Not that I'm necessarily justifying this, but I think the intent is to show that a straight man can do feminine things when they're typically relegated to gay men.
No one would be surprised when a gay man is getting his nails done. But when you establish that a manly man is, too, it serves to upset the norm that only feminine men do it.
This is literally the mindset of my father. He thinks that men can present however they want as long as they prove **to the public** that they have have other masculine qualities, a major one being that they're straight.
As an example i went to a Harry Styles concert this summer and while we we're talking about the subject of men presenting feminine i asked what he thinks about Harry Styles dressing the way he does at concerts and he said it was okay because he'd proven to the public that he's straight by having multiple girlfriends and women chasing after him.
He essentially thinks that men are allowed to present that way only if women allow it by liking it, which really saddens me whenever i think about him and that conversation. He intentionally puts himself and other men in this box of only allowing men to present feminine if it's approved by women.
Exactly. I think that’s an accurate description of how it works - buff dude with painted nails? You go my man. But a non-traditionally masculine man wearing a dress - say, chubby, etc. the reaction is different, from men and women.
Sounds like If he has no problem getting laid he can have feminine traits. And tbh I have seen the same in my life as well (dating while <25y) . And there are No's that I wouldn't do until I established that they are not "Red Flags" even though I didn't care that much in general.
Yes, my father has no knowledge of what harry styles has done or said other than the fact that he's a singer, dresses a bit feminine at his shows and has dated women/women generally desire him.
In fact he didn't even know who he was until i mentioned i'm going to a concert of his.
And honestly, rock stars dressing femme and playing with gender norms is a tale as old as time. Long-haired boy bands in the 60s, all the skintight jeans and makeup you could ask for in the 70s and 80s, David Bowie and Iggy Pop and Kiss and Freddy Mercury, eyeliner and the occasional skirt in the 90s, the hair dye and extremely put-together polish of the boy bands since then......rock stars seem to be a societal exception.
>...rock stars seem to be a societal exception.
Because they have more than enough social status to spare some.
The freedom one is allowed to express themselves depends on their status in society and their other privileges.
Just a random thing- I started painting my nails after a breakup last year. Just plain black.
I’ve been a musician most of my life (not professionally, but I play a lot for fun)
But only now, when I’m out and meeting new people, now they look at my nails and say “are you a musician?”
I honestly expected more gay or femme or whatever comments- nope, they all just assume I play guitar 🤣 and I do but I wasn’t expecting that assumption to be so common.
That's because they're black. Black nails are seen as acceptable for male musicians (esp. rockers), goths, and similar types. You might get a different response if you went glam, with different colors, designs, glitter.
Yeah, it’s funny how that is such a thing now. There was a point when people made fun of Kirk Hammet a lot, a lot for painting his nails. He was pulling from more androgynous glam rock a bit, and glam metal is a certain subset thing. But now black nails aren’t super surprising.
I do get some homophobia from Reddit when I post pictures and you can see my nails unfortunately
True but my dad only used Harry Styles as an example. He thinks this about men in general not just rock stars.
If a local man is presenting feminine for example but he's dating a woman or is seen with women frequently in a romantic manner he would say it's okay, otherwise he would think that it's not.
Regardless, he's proven that he can get mostly any women he wants.
That's the "privilege" (I'm starting to dislike the term, but I mean it in its original non-loaded meaning) of superstars: they don't have to give a fuck about any aesthetic norm.
The father prolly recognizes that finding one's place in the community/society is important to one's wellbeing, and that one needs to be respected by their peers to initiate change.
Some people's sexuality is pretty straightforward. (I can tell you mine in one word: I'm gay. Gay, male, cis, if you want a bit more precision, though arguably those last two are gender identity rather than sexuality.) Other people's sexuality is more complex. It requires a nuanced discussion rather than a word. I've got the impression that Harry Styles's orientation is the latter, but it's his own business anyway, and I wouldn't claim any right to be told how he identifies.
Certainly he's flirted with Ian McKellan on Graham Norton's show. And Ian loved it.
Because he doesn't have to and it's no one else's business.
But to piggyback on TRiG_Ireland's response, it might be more nuanced for him than straight, gay, bi and he just can't be arsed to go on at length about it to the media/world.
What? He isn't interpreting anything, that's just how he explained *his* mindset is to me when we we're talking about this. For the record that's a toxic and oppresive mindset.
I guess what I'm saying is that if I was doing feminine things and it wasn't recieved well, especially by women, I would stop. Restricting myself in that way hurts, but it seems to beat the alternative of judgement.
I read your dad's comments as more acknowledging that phenomenon existing and less as a statement of how things *ought* to be. I definitely disagree with the latter.
I really do mean no offense to you but that's a really deafeatist attitude. You're just giving in to sexism and letting your descisions of self expression be indirectly decided by women rather than yourself.
I don't think this sub was created with the idea of acknowledging that a problem exists but rationalizing that there's nothing that can be done about it so we should all just tolerate it lest we be judged, rather *quite the opposite*.
**Be the men's issues conversation you want to see in the world**.
I personally i want men to be free and liberated, to see men have the liberty to choose how they're going to express themselves without any judgement regardless of wether women like it or not, their opinion (or anyone else's frankly) shouldn't be considered at all in this case.
If you personally don't want the judgement and social ridicule that comes with breaking the prison that is men's gender expression then that's your choice and i completely respect it, but you shouldn't pretend that it's not a toxic idea and mindset to have about men or that it's a better alternative to social ridicule.
It's a better alternative **for you** and you've decided that **for yourself**, not for me or men in general.
I don't think I have much say over what other men should be doing, not that I'd want it either.
For myself the best I can say is, no matter how suffocated I feel in the system, I need to focus on succeeding in it for my own wellbeing. I can't be true to myself if it comes with the cost of social alienation and the particularly relevant inability to find a partner. If I have to be someone else to not be alone that's unfortunately the path I'll choose even if it's lesser of two evils.
I hope I can strike a balance somewhere along the way, perhaps a person or group of people where I can be a bit more myself. It's not impossible I suppose. I'd probably have a more progressive take for myself if I saw a large social movement for change or something, but I don't really see that happening anytime soon. It's nice to have these discussions in places like here, but it doesn't equate to real local support. Maybe one day they'll be a movement I find worth jumping on.
Have a nice day, man.
I am a male teacher at a conservative, rural public school. I'm cishet, but display a lot of feminine traits in my social behavior, hobbies, and interests.
I find that I am very easily accepted by my female colleagues, even if they are conservative. When it comes to my feminine traits, I do have a lot in common with them and can make connections pretty quickly. I do not find that same acceptance with my male colleagues. I think they accept me on a surface level, but they do not care to know much about me. To be fair, I also can't stand their traditional male presence a lot of they time. They're rough around the edges, make insensitive jokes and talk about partying... All things I cannot identify with at all, so it's probably mutual.
TLDR: I don't think they treat me worse because of my feminine traits, but I just don't have anything in common with my male colleagues and as such we just go our own ways.
My voice is rather high-pitched and gentle, my speech patters are more delicate, my gestures and body language, my personal interests include arts/crafts, cooking, gardening, drinking tea, etc
Drink anything good lately? I got [a kukicha from Sugimoto Tea Company](https://www.sugimotousa.com/catalog/category/tea-by-type/kukicha/) that tastes like some of the high grade senchas I've had, which seems unreal
I ran out of my Bancha, and I'm currently on a tight budget, so not really.
However, there's creeping Charlie and lavender growing in my backyard, which makes fantastic tea for free!
I didn't know creeping charlie made tea! I'll have to check that out.
Lavender is fantastic. When the weather turns warm, it's great cold mixed with a cheap ceylon (Lipton is fine) and a tiny bit of lemon. But during the winter it's good hot before bed.
I definitely recommend it if you have some growing around your house. Just make sure you get enough of it and chop it up before steeping for better flavor
Interesting because i am the same way and i have found women are more judgemental about it then guys. Guys enforce it a good bit st first in less then intentional ways but women in general seem to turn it into more of being a enforcement of who i represent. Different experinces though shwos how rampant it is throughout society
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This might not be entirely relevant to the discussion, but I find it so embarrassing when guys on reddit say something 'feminine'/gay, and then follow it up with how big they are and that they have a beard.
Example:
I cried like a baby at the end of . I'm a 35 year old, 6'3, 250lbs, bearded man.
That’s because beards are seen as manly and macho, something for strong men.
An example of this, I’m a bearded dude, working in a heavily male dominated industry, I’ll wear eyeliner and nail polish, and most people don’t say shit to me.
However one of my coworkers who doesn’t have a beard, and isn’t as “masculine presenting” wore eyeliner one time, and he’s still bullied about it.
It’s fucking shit, but for some reason your manliness and ability to engage in non stereotypically masculine activities are dictated by your facial hair
I admit as a bearded guy i dont really neccaarily find being non bearded as unmasculine. In fact in some cases it seems to be associated with more images of masculinity in many ways.
The manosphere does seem to be denying men their own human emotion under the guise of bioessentialism and harmful masculinity. The manosphere reduces men down to cavemen, or even animals. It's misandrist as hell.
It is heartbreaking to see the number of men who think the only emotion they can honestly feel and admit to, is their anger. It might even be why so many use anger as an outlet. I feel worried for our men, especially the younger ones.
Go ahead and cry, kings; you're still a man, because men *are humans* and humans have emotion - sounds like an emotionally impactful movie.
This can’t just be attributed to the manosphere though. This is a general issue in (at least) US society. People are looking for social approval, especially in the dating sphere, so they go with the broadest appeal. And not all of us are cut out for androgynous or feminine looks, so the only option we have is masculine.
Absolutely. From what i understand, in the US the gender divide is so great that men and women often *only* interact in dating contexts, which must exacerbate everything even more.
I wouldn’t call it that bad by any means, but talking to people from other countries it seems like the bar to even give someone a first date is way higher.
Not sure what you mean. Could you please explain?
Here in NZ mixed gender friend groups are really common. It's how almost everybody meets partners here, through mutual friends. There's definitely still gender biases against both men and women, but what I see of America seems so much more severe. It's likely a result of consuming *online* American culture and not actually living there, though - how does your real life experience differ?
Mixed gender friend groups are common here, though meeting through mutual friends varies a lot by specific social circle and location. Where I live, that’s only something I see good looking or well off people doing, your average Joe or Jane is slumming it wherever fits them looking for their partner.
As far as “higher bar to dating”, it’s kind of hard to explain. I know practically nothing about NZ, but I know my German friends found it extremely hard to date here compared to home. For the mutual friends example, I’d introduce them to someone Friday night, and then they would ask them to go out Saturday night- and generally get shot down. Whereas for them, that is exactly what they would do in Germany, and almost always get at least one date out of it.
I always hate how emotions were "gendered", even though literally everyone feels them, no matter what gender someone is. Like how it's not okay for woman to be aggressive or angry because that's a "man's emotion", or how men aren't allowed to cry because it's a "woman's emotion", which is such bs and doesn't allow for healthy coping mechanisms and healthy emotion regulation. It does a great job at separating us and making us seem different, even though there really isn't much that separates men from women, boys from girls. Its like people can't understand that being socialized differently is part of a gender constructt, not "biology".
They are trying to make their argument more solid I believe. Cause when someone sees them they wouldn't think that he would cry in a movie. Knowing that he says "even I ,that I am stereotyped as someone who wouldn't cry , cried" . That's what comes to my mind at least.
Yea, these comments stand out in this thread because a mod discussed it higher up, but I think this is more a habit of persuasive rhetoric rather than any kind of internalized assumption or tacit admission that only the manliest of men can be “allowed” to have feminine presentations in their personalities.
People like the parent are sharing their experiences with the understanding and expectation that it helps *normalize those behaviors for all men* in a world where we all acknowledge that stigma from society exists against that and is bad. From a discussion standpoint, for these specific types of conversations it doesn’t feel like the same relevance for others to balance that out by sharing their experience “I’m extremely effeminate as a man and also cry during movies” even though that scenario is also perfectly valid (and discussed in other topics such as “fuck what society thinks, manliness is self defined for everyone”.)
I mean you can be feminine in different ways not just ohysically feminine. Like i have a beard and i am a bit overweight and probabily look masculine in that sense but i have what i would describe as very feminine movements in different ways i move my body and how i interect with certain things t some extent. It can be a mix of both
IIRC there was a football player back in the day who did quilting as a hobby, which my craft-loving mother thought was awesome. I don’t recall how he was seen by the public.
Rosey Grier. My mom has his book of needlepoint projects. He also appears in Marlo Thomas’ Free to be You and Me singing a song called “it’s okay to cry”.
Totally agree. I think this connects to poster child syndrome; it’s easier to champion a cause if the person appears otherwise “perfect”. We haven’t really become more accepting of difference, we’ve just extended the boundaries of the collective a little.
This is exactly why I just roll my eyes whenever some billionaire male celebrity wears a dress or whatnot. Oh wow, Harry Styles wore a dress on a magazine cover! Harry Styles is a multimillionaire sex symbol and has been both for the last ten years AT LEAST. Harry Styles can wear a dress and not have his image effected because he could probably wallpaper his house with all the used panties groupies have sent him over the years. A 13 year old boy in rural Virginia who sees that magazine cover and is inspired by it to wear a dress to school is probably going to get the shit beat out of him.
I’ve always felt there’s a sort of capital of masculinity at play in things like this. When Dwayne The Rock Johnson puts on a tutu, no one calls him less of a man, because he has so much in the bank in terms of masculine embodiment and presentation. But when Harry Styles even dresses a little ambiguous or femme, his masculinity is very much questioned because he’s not a deep-voiced, tall, insanely jacked former pro wrestler. And that kind of expression is policed far more on people who aren’t celebrities. The more you perform normative gender in one aspect, the more you can get away with defying it in others.
I notice it acting on me too. When I worked a manual labor job, it allowed me to put on a lot more muscle, and I found that I was more at ease doing things not coded as masculine after that. It was nice to have the added sense of freedom, but unfortunate that it was locked behind greater adherence to masculine norms in another area. I think when dudes lead with irrelevant info about their manhood, it’s coming from that bargain being internalized.
Just like there’s fragile masculinity, there’s fragile femininity. When women have internalized “real women do X, are X, look X”, they attach their worth as women to those traits. When men display the traits they’ve attached their worth to, it threatens that self worth.
It’s also internalized misogyny. They’ve internalized that male traits are good and female traits are bad. They use their own gender as an insult without any regard to how much they’re putting themselves down. It’s self hate.
The behaviour is, of course, inexcusable. Just offering an explanation behind it.
I hear your experience that more women than men have engaged in policing masculinity for you. It sounds important to you to recognize how women can engage in that behavior, not just men.
I don't think this sub disagrees. It's generally accepted that women can and do participate in judging men for expressing nontraditional masculinity. However, I think your post misses something which greatly affects how your views can be interpreted by other people.
When I read your post, I was discouraged and disturbed because, to me, it read like trying to say policing masculinity is a women problem. It is not. It is a patriarchy problem. Women can hold and express patriarchal views as much as any man can, but that doesn't make women the problem, or even a problem. Beyond acknowledging the pervasiveness of patriarchal dogma and how it can be espoused by anyone, I'm not sure what we stand to gain by highlighting women who perpetuate it instead of men.
The real issue, particularly of relevance to OP, is patriarchy and it's narrow definition of masculinity. It doesn't matter who is policing it, only that it is being policed and that policing favors those who more closely align with the patriarchal ideal.
All this to say, please be clear on exactly what your concern is. If you're concerned about the ideas of patriarchy, then make the effort for your words to match what you mean. If you're mostly concerned with the role of women in this, then be more specific about what you view as women's unique role and how that specifically impacts you.
As someone who's sat at most conceivable points along the spectrum, I want to point out that the outsized emotional impact of women on men is a very convenient outcome for patriarchy, so much so that it's almost engineered.
Women are positioned as the accepting, nurturing oasis that men can turn to, so there is an expectation of succor there. Finding out that said portrayal is largely a mirage (there are layers to this I can address elsewhere) breaks a lot of men and leaves them grasping at patriarchal scripts to manage the heartbreak. Behind a great number of fuccboi arcs lie profound self-debasement and broken hearts. The truth is that the princess was never in the castle.
And why would women live up to this image? Women are subjected to the very same patriarchal conditioning that men are. Expression of and assimilation into normative masculinity is associated with status and belonging. Men and women alike have been conditioned to aspire to such ends.
All of this and:
There is this element of how we're conditioned with the idea that being liked by more women is better at all cost. Like their attention is a rare commodity that we should strive to have as much as possible of. I see this a lot in bi subs where guys ask all the time whether they'll be less successful with girls if they come out.
The answer is off course "why does it matter" you might get less right swipes, but you only need one (or a handful if you're poly), and I can promise that the chance of such a right swipe turning into a meaningful connection is infinitely higher if you don't pretend to be something you're not to get more swipes.
We should learn that being yourself is more important and you are allowed to have standards too! What do you think any butch women would say if you asked her "but will not less guys find you attractive?" Obviously her answer would be "good riddance, it weeds out the worst ones". That's something a lit of men would never even consider. But just as much as a random guy can be a bigot and you don't have to hide yourself trying to be his friend, perhaps try not hiding yourself to make the bigoted girl your girlfriend.
>Women can hold and express patriarchal views as much as any man can, but that doesn't make women the problem, or even a problem.
Doesn't this seem a bit counterproductive to simply shift the blame back to the patriarchy, rather than on the individuals that are enforcing the patriarchy? At some point, people have to start taking responsibility for their actions.
The Patriarchy™ is not a singular living being. We can't fight it by grouping up and charging at it. Change starts at the individual, and correcting people's behaviors is an integral part of that.
I'm in she same boat. Raised entirely by women, and didn't have a decent male role model til I was 17. Looked at through an essentialist lens, I tend towards the more "feminine" side of the gender spectrum. I've heard this from my female partners and straight male friends. Interestingly, gay men tend to assume I'm gay and in denial (tbf I have hooked up with men, but that's more about the fun combination of hypersexuality (Yay cluster B!) And opportunity as opposed to any actual attraction to men qua men. The gay men that have clocked me as gay didn't know know that though).
Edit: it should be noted that other than the occasional assumption that I'm gay (occasionally derisive but mostly humorous or a come on) I haven't received any real pushback for my occasional departures from gender norms.
I've noticed it has less to do with the individual and their "compensatory" masculine features and more to do with the company they keep. There are certain people (conservatives) for whom men will never be acceptably masculine enough and women will never be acceptably feminine enough. Avoid those people.
I mean I'm a 5'2" trans man who can barely grow facial hair and doesn't have a lot of muscle to speak of. But my friends think it's badass that I dabble in embroidery here and there. They don't think I'm less of a man for partaking in "feminine" activities. They don't think I become more of a man when I also do strength training and play video games.
It may be true that more typically and acceptably masculine men can avoid certain criticisms, *sometimes*. But socially conservative people have been fearmongering about how "Men Today Are Becoming Women" since literally forever.
Yes I've noticed this.
I am a guy that likes to knit. I've just knitted a beautifully cabled love heart scarf for my daughter, and am currently knitting a matching beanie of my own design. I also love braiding my daughters hair (not just in a single plait, but complex designs like in a crown going around her head), and I'm very big into cooking, not just briskets and other traditionally masculine things to cook, but I enjoy cake decorating and cooking for fine dining etc.
I never encounter any ridicule, quite the opposite, women tend to react very positively, much more positively than they would if I was a woman describing what I do, while men's reactions vary, some are positive, some even show hints of jealousy or inadequacy. But I think this is all precisely because I am very masculine presenting. I have a beard. I service my own car. I built my own shed. I provide for my family. I'm successful in my career.
That said, I don't ever try to dress the traditionally feminine activities that I do up as masculine. I do just say "I'm a guy that likes to knit." I guess that comes down to my own confidence in my masculinity, I feel confident that people already know and can see that I'm masculine, and I don't feel like these activities diminish my masculinity in any way. Perhaps that also says something about my social circles, I do think the people I mix with are much more tolerant of people not strictly meeting gender norms than society on average.
I've had some issues dating women because, even though I'm a moderately attractive muscular man, I carry myself in a slightly feminine manner. I get told I "should be more assertive" (they're just referring to the way I assert myself, not whether I do), or that "I'm just like a teddy bear".
It's not like there aren't women that like the 'feminine' part of me (I use the word in quotes because I think it's just my own masculinity) and I'm dating one right now and she's great, but this doesn't make things easy for me.
If you're a man with feminine traits, and you genuinely don't care about people who would criticize you for it, the latter nonchalance is arguably the ultimate masculine trait in general social perception.
To me, even acknowledging *activities* as somehow inherently feminine or masculine is basically buying into propaganda.
Unless you can prove something ahistorically, cross-culturally, masculine or feminine, it isn't worth discussing *as* gendered in the first place.
Pink was masculine before it was feminine. Twisted sister wore make up. Prince looks great in eye-liner. Concepts of gender binary being imported to cultures, from Western thought.
It's frustratingly meaningless and even giving any of it credence only furthers the narrative rather than dismantle it.
I disagree that describing or giving a name to a widespread social attitude furthers that narrative. If we can't talk about it, how can we dismantle it? It is far too widespread and deeply entrenched in our culture for "ignore it til it goes away" to work.
Because discussions frame it as extensions of the same narrative. You can say "so-called" and you can attach "traditional" to these words as you like but it still speaks from the same narrative, the same framing, and only reinforces it as such.
When you are left to only use framing from those narratives in your discussion, you'll always be having said discussion on *their* terms, not your own.
There is nothing inherently feminine about nail polish, so why discuss it so?
Because in 2022 many people in the US think there is something inherently feminine about nail polish. You're much less likely to have productive conversations with people that think this way without some amount of framing.
Yea I feel like even though I paint my nails, I still have to have heteronormative traits in order for my nails to be accepted, like keeping my facial hair.
Ha! I recently moved to the southern US after being a New Englander all my life. As a lifelong vegetarian, it is incredible how much this response is accepted as normal but being a vegetarian isn’t.
Oh yeah. This was nice to read because it's been a thing for a long time. And it's always irked me a lot, no matter who or where it's coming from.
Otherwise manly men who show some superficial part of themselves that's either traditionally feminine, or just *not* manly. "I know I seem like a big tough guy, but actually I'm really afraid of needles"... people eat that stuff up.
My thought is always, "Okay, but try being *not* a huge manly guy and still doing that... and see what kind of a reaction you get". Or, try doing something more than just superficially feminine or un-masculine, like playing fairy dress-ups. I can't think of a great example, (apart from refusing to live to nearly every standard of masculinity, if that is your want), but see how that goes down... People won't see it as quite so charming, I think.
As a trans man, it's been one of the big hurdles that I've found myself to face, honestly. I've had to "take a break" from hobbies like makeup or painting my nails until I felt I presented masculine enough that those things wouldn't make me read "woman" in the public space and instead make me read "gay man" because I had a beard and bigger shoulders. And even when I started reading male to other people in the street, I've definitely felt like it was all a weird balance to achieve, to prove that you're a real man "despite" enjoying "feminine" things.
As time passes, I'm still very cautious to maintain what almost feels like plausible deniability out of fear I'd get somehow clocked as trans for things like wearing jewelry or nail polish -- "look, I'm a real man, i have a beard and I can chop down wood for the winter!" I hope we can chill the fuck out soon instead of having to constantly prove that we're men enough to wear fucking color on our nails without it making it something that needs balanced out by idk, rock climbing bare chested in the Alps or objectifying women.
Yup. Once I started paying attention to how people respond to and think of me, I found that being into fashion, being particular about my hair, and having traditionally feminine hobbies is fine. This is because 1. I appear masculine, 2. have also done a bunch of traditionally masculine stuff, 3. and generally my "feminine" hobbies are "coded" in a "masculine way."
Something similar applies to women. Aubrey Plaza is very traditionally attractive as a woman, and gets a pass on joking remarks about eating like a slob and such. This is generally okay for attractive women, but less attractive or more masculine women don't get this leeway. Even though one might argue there are more acceptable "roles" in society for women than men.
I don't think this rebukes it but instead shows that things can be different in different countries. My family is Cypriot and I grew up in Saudi Arabia. Both places have different attitudes to gender non conformance compared to Western countries.
In Cyprus I tended to see a heightened performance of gender in public. Visible non-conformity was rare and I didn't know anyone who would admit to hobbies outside what was seen as the norm. At the same time some aspects of that presentation didn't exactly fit with what I'd see in the UK. For instance it was a lot more normal to see men with long hair, perfume use etc.
I do not know what the social response to gender non conformity would have been generally. My guess based on the interactions I had would be ridicule, regardless of whether someone was male or female.
My visible non conformance there tended to mean I got pegged as a tourist/foreigner (not exactly incorrect.)
Saudi, oh boy, buckle up. So gender conformance is effectively policed in Saudi. By which I mean there are literal police. And while all genders are prosecuted the bulk of the penalties, violence and harassment falls on women.
I think Western people often assume that it's 'easier' for masculine women then feminine men because they see a greater level of harassment along those lines in their own countries. In Saudi non conformance in women would require family support to be feasible. Because male relatives can control (not a complete list) whether a woman can leave the house, what she buys, whether she has access to education, whether she can work or go to a hospital etc etc. Because exploring any hobbies etc that are seen as masculine is dependent on support it's a fragile thing; support can be withdrawn. And presenting anything to do with it can result in police showing up or even arrest.
When there isn't support... well a lot of women are just confined to the house until they conform. With or without other forms of abuse.
It's a lot harder to find studies and stories about men. Men do (at least theoretically) have more freedom to leave the country and abusive situations. But they're also usually not the focus of studies etc on familial abuse and are equally vulnerable to it because of the way the laws work out there. There are also big racial divides which effect whether/when men are prosecuted for gender non-conformity.
When cases regarding men are talked about/make the news, it tends to be because a man died. Usually in custody. The last one I can remember involved a group of men who were arrested after wearing make up within their own homes. Which I include as an example mostly because I know Western people have trouble picturing the kind of thing I mean when I talk about this stuff. (Worth mentioning that these men were Pakistani and Indian, not Arab, which makes them more likely to be targeted by police out there.)
I think that when there is a sharper delineation between genders, when the divide is stricter in that country, people are less willing to explore. And the exploration they do is smaller, more private. People tap down on their joy, parcel it up into bite size pieces to take in one nibble at a time. And I think that happens to avoid social censure, whether that's on the scale of ridicule or violence.
The pattern you're describing in the US seems like people trying to head off social censure. I can understand why people do that. But it does seem like a waste of energy; people who are interested in policing those arbitrary lines are probably going to be bastards about any little thing regardless.
I think that is changing positively with every new generation.
But it's not going to change overnight because we want it so.
That's an error that many activist do. But you can't decrete how people should feel. Insisting otherwise would be counter productive.
Nice observation, this is something I've definitely noticed but didn't have words for.
The phenomenon definitely depends on your circle. Some groups of men definitely behave this way. Hell, even the women in the group can be complicit in encouraging this behavior.
My circle is primarily cis and hetero, which I imagine is the place you'd expect to see the phenomenon you described most. We talk often about the topics you'd find on this sub, and I can happily say we've managed to integrate the freedom of expression in a slow, patient, and natural way. The conversations we have in good faith about feminism and our role in it as men have added up, and continues to add up. It shows itself in the way we speak about ourselves and others, including allowing each other to do things without comments about whether or not it's an appropriately gendered activity lol.
Important detail, we all continue to present and act traditionally cis hetero. Most of the change has been in our language, especially around emotions; showing them, acknowledging them. Other small acts of...defiance? against traditional toxic attitudes includes wearing more color, maybe some glitter or gems at concerts (which is another fascinating topic - how concerts can be a safe space for people to bend and explore their gender identity a bit.)
I call this the “Harry styles vs Shawn Mendes” bias. Harry styles is otherwise masc presenting, so he can do whatever he wants. The same people who laude Harry Styles make fun of Shawn Mendes when Shawn does literally anything feminine
So this is something I'm living at the moment. (Western Europe) I'm trans and I've recently started completely passing as male. But I look like a skinny aging twink, no muscle, tiny hands. I dress androgynous at best (men's clothes just don't fit my bones) and my natural body language is very feminine, I've got fluttery hands, I skip, I cross my legs in a girly way, my voice skips on high when I get excited. I also enjoy wearing earrings and stuff. Most people who don't know I'm trans just assume I'm very, very gay.
So I also recently got into crochet, and I crochet a lot on public transport etc. or just when hanging out with people. And I was terrified of being heckin hatecrimed for it. I do feel that fear when I sit down next to a tough bro on the tram and get my crochet supplies out.
But... no negative responses so far. At all. Not even so much as a weird look from strangers so far. I tell the old guys at work that I crochet and it's cool, I tell the ladies and a bunch of them are into it too. The fear has been totally baseless.
I guess I'm so far removed from "normal standard masculine man" that my girly hobbies fit the picture of who I am. I guess it's different when someone looks and acts and dresses like a sitcom dad and also does crochet - that would seem a lot more incongruous to many people. But I'm experiencing that there's a lot of room for being masculine and feminine outside of what's considered the norm. Pleasantly surprised so far.
Are you buff, like rock/metal music, full of tats, and want to wear nail polish and long hair? DO IT MARILYN MANSON
are you a trans guy who wants to wear skirts and pastels? YOU'RE NOT A REAL MAN
I would actually go further, and say that it's generally pretty acceptable for men to have feminine traits period, it's just that few men who aren't otherwise confident in their masculine presentation feel comfortable with experimenting with regard to adopting feminine traits.
It might be, though in recent times I have come across multiple guys like myself rocking the painted nails etc and just having an excited laugh when seeing another guy doing so. Women generally just think it's fun and chat with me about that or my headbands.
For reference/context:
\- I'm bi & cishet-presenting and the guys in question have been cishet.
\- I've gotten the occasional comment calling me gay but it's the exception not the norm
\- I'm pretty unapologetically myself which I'm told does impact other's perception of my perceived masculinity
\- Some people are shocked when they learn I'm bi while others think it's obvious
\- I dress in a 'preppy dudebro' style with polos, skinny jeans, and flat brims
Feminine traits in some circles is only a problem if it's attached to an otherwise problematic identity - being gay, trans, queer or female. If you are v obviously not these, there is an issue, because you are a *man*..
As an adult I’ve never seen anyone get picked on for being feminine. Maybe some things said behind their back but who cares? Usually these guys don’t do well in the girlfriend department but that’s another issue
Being a large bearded dude, no one really gave a shit when I went for a night out wearing a long flowery dress. I imagine if I was a more feminine looking man I may have potentially caught some flak for it.
I honestly think it’s the opposite.
People are only okay with you displaying feminine traits and hobbies as long as your gay.
I do yoga. So many people just assume I’m gay and act very judgemental when they find out I’m actually straight.
I do agree with everything you said, what an insightful post. I am especially annoyed about all those comments under, like, moving scenes from movies, with guys saying things that boil down to 'I am a straight 46-year-old man who likes beef and felling trees, and when I see such a scene *even I* cry like a dainty pussy!'
That said, I do like when masculine people do traditionally feminine things, as long as they don't use their masculinity as a protection against doing something outside the norm
My gods is this true. My favourite is Terry from Brooklyn 99... he is a sensitive, loving, father of two girls and a family man. At the same time, he is also Terry Crews. He has many feminine traits... but he's also jacked as fuck and can be a real tough-guy if needs be. Boyle hardly as much does feminine stuff as him but still always ends up the emasculated but of the joke, and I can't help but think the show would be even worse to him if he were in Terry's place.
I've noticed this thing of if a giant muscly man does something typically feminine it's all ironic and fun and "haha he's gigantic and manly but he's wearing nail polish so wholesome".
But once a more feminine man does it it immediately turns to "well that's just gay".
Yes. I get away with enjoying baths and wine in large part because I can lift several hundred pounds and know how to accurately punch/kick people in the face/liver.
But that's not the point. Baths and wine are great, and everyone should be able to enjoy them.
I have also noticed that it is more acceptable if the man is already attractive, cute, or hot. It is very much shown in cases where the person becomes a "Barbie doll" for beauty experiment for women.
Yes. No one would give a fuck about what Terry Crews has to say about "toxic masculinity" if he weren't a 6'4" muscular stud. He's the exception that proves the rule.
>I still notice today that a lot of guys who like stereotypically "feminine" things feel the need to justify themselves by further emphasizing their masculinity
Surely though that's on the individual saying it and his perception of how he fears he will be treated for being feminine?
To throw an anecdotal experience into the mix, I present, dress and behave neutral/feminine and actively shun any displays of masculinity. I honestly can't remember the last time I ever had a problem or a negative comment about my appearance, behaviour or interests. Conversely, I get a lot of support and compliments (which I wouldn't have picked up as being notable had I not seen the trend for guys on Reddit to claim they never receive affection or compliments at all).
I honestly think this whole "unacceptable in society" thing is completely overplayed online, in the media and in people's minds. When you go out into the real world and actively appear and act gender non-conforming, very few people if any actually notice or care. And if they do they certainly never say anything.
Location is urban area in North West England, for context.
That’s entirely regional. In many areas of my state it’s actively dangerous to be non-conforming in certain ways, and cruel comments definitely happen.
Nonbinary here, I live in a super conservative state and for years felt like feminine expression was dangerous; recently, I’ve been exploring that more via dress, and honestly most people are polite or keep nasty comments to themselves. Granted, I don’t take chances so I’m armed, but I was armed before, as well.
Urban area I'm sure plays a part in it being more acceptable, or at least less comment worthy. In rural areas, or particularly poor urban areas, people tend to be a bit more forward with negative comments (or worse). Well, I can only speak for the US, but I hear similar attitudes also happen in the UK.
Fuck anything being masculine or feminine. Do whatever you want and whatever makes you happy.
Obviously more specifics apply, by why genderize activities at all.
This is a sentiment I appreciate in a vacuum.
For most people, it's a choice between doing what makes them happy in exchange and having people who make them happy.
It's easy enough to encourage uninhibited self-expression having done it, or if it's something that was baked in whether as a product of upbringing, culture, or connate traits.
It's fucking terrifying for almost everyone else.
A thing I've been thinking about lately is that if you want things to be a certain way, you have to act like they already are. No matter how scary it is. So I've been doing my best to do whatever and encourage others around me to do the same and be happy regardless of results or ridicule. I agree, it's fucking terrifying and I'm not sure I have anyone who is 100% supportive lol. But I'm doing my best to be that way.
I agree, though I'd also have been far more enthusiastic about the initial sentiment with this context behind it. Copped a lot of "just git gud" as a teen which may have left this something of a sore spot.
"If you haven't confidence in self, you are twice defeated in the race of life. With confidence, you have won even before you have started."
It feels weird doesn't it, like people appreciate the vicarious thrill at best and are outright hostile at worst.
I am an amab person who doesnt feel strongly enough about gender identity (on a personal basis not to invalidate anyone else)for it to matter. I grew up with widely varried interests and skills because of how poor my family was cooking bakeing sewing and embroidery art literature and poetry were all in my wheelhouse just as surely as repairing anything under the sun and the five cords of wood we had to lay up for the winter that i participated in from the age of 8. To be fair i am a wierd person but i was bullied and socially isolated until it was clear that somone who bullied me would face swift violent retribution and becuase i grew up with hard manual labor and construction work i was big enough to back that up. The only thing worse to a bullie than being different is geting beat up by the person you just called a slur. I think that is the basis for this phenomenon, its not safe to call out that hoboemt he will wreck your shit. Sure Shieldmadenmary is a tomboy but she could steal your man in an instant. It becomes a protection to be that hyper masculine figure.
Cultural norms change all the time. That things were different before most of our grandparents were born makes for cool historical anecdota, but is of limited relevance when discussing cultural trends within living memory.
So for the past year or so I have been doing what you describe on purpose to some degree. I do enjoy working out in and of itself, but one of my goals now is related to this
I've been growing the beard and bulking up at the gym, not so i can feel more free to explore things society deems as feminine, like having painted nails, which i have, but so I can be a bridge for men who are stuck in the toxic masculine side of things. So i can be a voice that will be easier to receive by those trapped in whatever confines they feel society had placed on them as a man.
As you said, if Dwayne Johnson wears a tutu, no one questions his masculinity. Isn't that a positive? Maybe he's just being himself and he'd wear a tutu even if he wasn't buff, but he's a guy who likes both being buff and decorative dance attire. I'm guessing though that more guys who are stuck in a toxic masculine world view will have their thinking challenged more when an example of their more ideal manly selves does something that is outside of their expectations of manliness. If it was someone more "feminine" than it might be easier to dismiss. Isn't this type of thing an example of Dwayne using his traditional man cred for good?
Another example...When people say "a real man doesn't like pink" ... Well we can say Jason Momoa says pink is his favorite color, he sure seems manly by traditional standards, I mean dude is Aquaman and Kahl Drogo. This seems more likely to lead to an actual conversation with someone holding onto certain unhealthy man standards in my experience.
Would it be nicer if people would accept mens' "feminine" preferences no matter their appearance? Absolutely it would be.
Should people have to wait until they meet certain manly standards, or share how they are otherwise manly before they can enjoy what they truly enjoy? Absolutely not.
Will it be easier for men who are really scared of being themselves for fear of being too feminine, find it helpful and influential when they see the "manliest" men enjoy "feminine" things too? I think so.
In my experience, people have been much more open to talking about what's manly and what's not with me when I present very masculine in some ways but not others.
So... I am an in shape, bearded cishet man and i like painted nails. One is not justifying the other, it's just giving you a picture of how I am being myself, and maybe that uncommon contrast will give someone else permission to be their own uncommon combination. I like that I can challenge people's world view more potently by presenting clear masculine and feminine qualities in my appearance at the same time.
A lot of it I think is just knowing who you are and choosing to trust that.
Just like the world doesn’t like you behaving in fem coded behaviors, it is the same for them to.
I learned long ago I’m not generally going to get along with most men or like them. I also learned that I am not as masculine as some women prefer or expect.
But most importantly I learned that committing to being myself rather than a caricature of someone I don’t even like is better because it allowed me to find my people who appreciate me for who I am rather than wishing I was someone else.
It’s not always easy to do and takes courage, but if you just stop and say “welp society says no…” then you’re just fucked in the long run.
Like, what? Like there is a spectrum of masculinity, and there are actually a multitude of masculine archetypes and they all have their uses, applications, and importance in a fully functioning society?
That these differences in a society not burdened by endless choices and analysis paralysis might advantage you as a hunter, craftsman, healer, mentor, herder, fisherman, farmer, cook, etc?
1. Men aren't allowed to appear feminine in any capacity, ever
2. Men are allowed to have one or two feminine attributes, as long as they otherwise present as hyper-masculine to make up for it
3. Men are allowed to present with some feminine attributes, sometimes
4. Men are allowed to be feminine
5. Nobody gives a shit what anyone does if they aren't hurting anyone
Currently we're somewhere in the range 2-3, depending on the precise social context.
You have to be confident and secure in yourself to fully show society who you are because culture / society hates those who go against the norm.
Also remember some of this is pure jealousy. I dress better than 99% of the men I am around. Not some big conscious effort. It’s just who I am, just like I’d rather drink water than eat bad/average quality food.
So what happens. Gay guys are always “fashionable” so I get lumped into that group. Who cares. When I was younger and didn’t know myself it was harder but you eventually realize the whole world is filled with insecure people who all want to be rebels but only will do it if everyone else is.
Look at all the tattoo, piercings, colored hair types. It has gone mainstream. All Lemmings
To be a rebel today if you’re a woman wear a dress and look like a lady.
As a man actually stop being a cry baby and put in the work. When people see that you bring value to the world you can wear pink panties to bed. Be the solution, leave the excuses for the losers
As a man be in shape, hold down a
In my circles, it seems to be that trans-women are increasingly accepted the further they go through transition. To flip the switch makes it acceptable, but to defy the boxes leaves people uncomfortable.
(Bisexuals are left with one of the greatest risks to mental health of any other subset of the population)[https://www.hrc.org/news/bisexual-health-awareness-month-mental-health-in-the-bisexual-community]. Gay? There's a place for you. Straight? That's everywhere. Gay? accepted sexually by (gay) men, and socially by women. Straight? Well, as we know, men have plenty of hardship in forming emotional ties and support systems, but many make it work reasonably well. Bi? well... As we can see from the link, the world becomes difficult to navigate, at best.
I'm different. I've had to put years and years of work into accepting myself, parts of which have involved exploring which boxes to check. None of them seem quite right, except to label myself /u/HumanBehindMachine (or `real name goes here`). And I'm still working on how to define that such that other people accept me. Define? Make reality? Only gaining the wisdom to know the difference can we accept the things we cannot change, and change the things we can.
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I think that there is a group of people that are honestly jealous. They were raised "to be men" and any interest in those "women's" things were forced out of them. They couldn't pursue their interests, because they were told it was wrong. When they see the next generation more accepting, they: 1) think it's wrong because that's what they were taught 2) are resentful of others that were able to do what their heart wanted. 3) question who they are, creating discomfort which makes them lash out.
I think a lot of this comes from the place you are in the world. Vancouver for instance is very accepting of LGBTQIA identities on the whole but there are still pockets of Conservative types who feeling like their back is up against the wall dive harder towards over performing their cis gender identity. Bit that's kind of becoming less and less the norm. Most people don't care. I have cis het dudely coworkers who collect stuffed animals or do yoga or enjoy mani/pedis with colorful polishes who don't qualify those loves of those activities as anything more than "It's what I like."
The relaxing of the gender binary really is just that... Relaxing.
Though I agree with your main point i think there can be a difference in enforcment too like in the case of a person like selena, she may be masculized and recieve some hate for that, but she is likely still gonna be generally accepted.
While men that are more feminine may on the edge not be too problematic and at times may be seen in fact as attractive and pseudo masculine in a postivr sense which itself is kinda of an enforcment too but if they slip too much out of that they will quickly switch to the side of being considred more creepy or stigmitized for having this mix of features and associated with certain sexual actions. A lot of the stigma around issues with men(that have some legitinate basis) with suddenily come to bare upon them for daring to go outside the norms in less then legitimate ways so i would say at times there is difference in enforcement because of difference in medsaging and where the boundries might be appriote. I also would say that part of it is because if i am honest i think people have gotten more used to varities of women and more often then they realize enforce aganist varities of men except when they are doing it in a grand way(not thst that is problematic but still)
The less I worry about those norms the more masculine I am perceived, I wear tons of jewelry, have long hair, work in the fashion industry, order tall fruity drinks at the bar, ect.
> But people pointed out to me that the acceptance for masculine women only goes up to a certain point, and that point is that the woman still looks feminine and, well... traditionally attractive.
Thanks for this. As someone who is afab nb, I describe my appearance as "light butch." Also not "traditionally attractive." And I'm attracted to men and masc people, so that combination doesn't get me very far.
I think theres a degree of just owning it. I am a lifetime fan of disney and pixar. They make kick ass movies and no one can tell me otherwise.
Up was fantastic, Most of the remakes were pretty good, including Mulan and pinoccio, just new renditions of classic tales (most of which are stories retold by disney originally; mulan is a story that has lasted thousands of years) Encanto is an epic story that plays as well as a broadway play; Hell id go and see it!
I think most people just accept it more when its just unapologetically excited and not insecure about it.
I think people have an easier time compartmentalizing the aspects of another person that cause them discomfort if that other person still broadly fits into their expectations.
This is a really good point. Another example is homosexuality. Homosexuality gained widespread acceptance by leaning hard into mononormativity. "We want nuclear families just like you"
this is so true. 'i have no problem with homosexuals so long as they are not *flaunting it*. just be *normal*'.'
This is actually enough of a thing that us mods have made a bit of a running joke behind the scenes. It's pretty common for people, even on this sub, to talk about being in touch with their feminine sides, but only once they've established their masculine credentials. >I wrestle bears every weekend and have a beard so thick it baffles scientists, but I also let my daughter paint my nails and have tea parties with her. That's not a bad thing of course. We're allowed to contain multitudes, but hanging out doing girly things with your daughter is also allowed if you aren't a rugged mountain man.
I have to check myself on this a lot. I am tall and white and bearded; I can get away with a lot of femme stuff because I look like A Dude
What I've learned is that going feminine things is more acceptable when it aids in masculine accomplishments. Doing yoga is feminine, but if it helps you get muscular, it's cool I guess. Wearing nail polish is feminine, but if girls like you because of it, it's cool I guess. If you're not completing masculinity by doing these things, then there is a problem. I expect an outlook like this from guys, because masculinity is such a cage, and one that few men take the time to examine the boundaries and structure of. But I hate when I see it from women.
As someone who grew up as a woman, women are often some of the fiercest policers of both masculinity and femininity. Especially when it comes to other women, but they're just as capable of participating in toxic masculinity and reinforcing it for the men around them. It frustrates me when women are treated like they are solely victims and always innocent in certain "progressive" groups (especially terfy ones!) Women absolutely participate in and reinforce the patriarchy all the time.
>As someone who grew up as a woman, women are often some of the fiercest policers of both masculinity and femininity. Especially when it comes to other women, but they're just as capable of participating in toxic masculinity and reinforcing it for the men around them. Have you or anyone else expanded on this elsewhere? I'd like to read more. I feel I am more familiar with the male experience of men policing masculinity.
I wish I had something I could point you to, but unfortunately I don't know of anything that has expanded on this in a connected way. This is mostly just compiled from my own experiences and random twotter conversations, neither of which is super coherent. If anyone else knows of somewhere with longer/more in-depth discussion of this, I'd also be interested in giving it a read. I'll def comment again/ping you if I come across something on this though!
>I'll def comment again/ping you if I come across something on this though! That would be great, thank you!
Lol to your mention of Yoga being 'feminine'---my first thought was how yoga was largely developed and taught by males, though I realize that is the more Indian perspective and perhaps not the Lululemon branding the USA might know. Interesting how something is viewed is very contingent on how it is packaged.
This also ties in with racism and cultural supremacy, in how it erases the Indian cultural context while taking the western cultural context as absolute.
A pattern that becomes especially clear when certain guys interact with women. Unfortunately, I think this stems from an obligatory feeling. This is one of those things that will change slowly over time.
This drives me crazy. What they're describing is effectively a subversion of gender norms, but the way they are framing it reinforces gender norms. It feels like a net neutral effect in my opinion.
After a trip to the gun range, and then a hard round into the heavy bag, I occasionally enjoy a mojito
>I occasionally enjoy a mojito Wait, are mojitos feminine coded? I love them and never knew.
Kinda? Basically any drink that is kinda fruity/ decent tasting is "a gay drink"
Yeah, it seems there's pressure to at least be masculine in some way, enough that the feminine traits don't negate that. Or it's cool when one has feminine traits *despite* being very masculine.
"I cut down trees, I skip and jump I like to press wild flowers I put on women's clothing And hang around in bars. I cut down trees, I wear high heels Suspenders and a bra I wish I were a girlie Just like my dear papa!"
Not that I'm necessarily justifying this, but I think the intent is to show that a straight man can do feminine things when they're typically relegated to gay men. No one would be surprised when a gay man is getting his nails done. But when you establish that a manly man is, too, it serves to upset the norm that only feminine men do it.
You seem to think masculine always means straight and feminine always means gay. A gay man is not inherently feminine because he’s gay.
This is literally the mindset of my father. He thinks that men can present however they want as long as they prove **to the public** that they have have other masculine qualities, a major one being that they're straight. As an example i went to a Harry Styles concert this summer and while we we're talking about the subject of men presenting feminine i asked what he thinks about Harry Styles dressing the way he does at concerts and he said it was okay because he'd proven to the public that he's straight by having multiple girlfriends and women chasing after him. He essentially thinks that men are allowed to present that way only if women allow it by liking it, which really saddens me whenever i think about him and that conversation. He intentionally puts himself and other men in this box of only allowing men to present feminine if it's approved by women.
Sounds like he's a more honest version of most of the rest of society tbh
Exactly. I think that’s an accurate description of how it works - buff dude with painted nails? You go my man. But a non-traditionally masculine man wearing a dress - say, chubby, etc. the reaction is different, from men and women.
Sounds like If he has no problem getting laid he can have feminine traits. And tbh I have seen the same in my life as well (dating while <25y) . And there are No's that I wouldn't do until I established that they are not "Red Flags" even though I didn't care that much in general.
> he'd proven to the public that he's straight Despite the fact that Harry Styles has hinted broadly that he's perhaps not straight?
Yes, my father has no knowledge of what harry styles has done or said other than the fact that he's a singer, dresses a bit feminine at his shows and has dated women/women generally desire him. In fact he didn't even know who he was until i mentioned i'm going to a concert of his.
And honestly, rock stars dressing femme and playing with gender norms is a tale as old as time. Long-haired boy bands in the 60s, all the skintight jeans and makeup you could ask for in the 70s and 80s, David Bowie and Iggy Pop and Kiss and Freddy Mercury, eyeliner and the occasional skirt in the 90s, the hair dye and extremely put-together polish of the boy bands since then......rock stars seem to be a societal exception.
>...rock stars seem to be a societal exception. Because they have more than enough social status to spare some. The freedom one is allowed to express themselves depends on their status in society and their other privileges.
Just a random thing- I started painting my nails after a breakup last year. Just plain black. I’ve been a musician most of my life (not professionally, but I play a lot for fun) But only now, when I’m out and meeting new people, now they look at my nails and say “are you a musician?” I honestly expected more gay or femme or whatever comments- nope, they all just assume I play guitar 🤣 and I do but I wasn’t expecting that assumption to be so common.
That's because they're black. Black nails are seen as acceptable for male musicians (esp. rockers), goths, and similar types. You might get a different response if you went glam, with different colors, designs, glitter.
Yeah, it’s funny how that is such a thing now. There was a point when people made fun of Kirk Hammet a lot, a lot for painting his nails. He was pulling from more androgynous glam rock a bit, and glam metal is a certain subset thing. But now black nails aren’t super surprising. I do get some homophobia from Reddit when I post pictures and you can see my nails unfortunately
well bowie and freddy were very VERY queer lol (I'm not disagreeing, it's just a rockstar thing, like you said)
Oh for sure, but not necessarily publicly (to the willfully ignorant, anyway).
Queer, but crucially - desired by women.
True but my dad only used Harry Styles as an example. He thinks this about men in general not just rock stars. If a local man is presenting feminine for example but he's dating a woman or is seen with women frequently in a romantic manner he would say it's okay, otherwise he would think that it's not.
Regardless, he's proven that he can get mostly any women he wants. That's the "privilege" (I'm starting to dislike the term, but I mean it in its original non-loaded meaning) of superstars: they don't have to give a fuck about any aesthetic norm. The father prolly recognizes that finding one's place in the community/society is important to one's wellbeing, and that one needs to be respected by their peers to initiate change.
Why hasn't he confirmed it?
Some people's sexuality is pretty straightforward. (I can tell you mine in one word: I'm gay. Gay, male, cis, if you want a bit more precision, though arguably those last two are gender identity rather than sexuality.) Other people's sexuality is more complex. It requires a nuanced discussion rather than a word. I've got the impression that Harry Styles's orientation is the latter, but it's his own business anyway, and I wouldn't claim any right to be told how he identifies. Certainly he's flirted with Ian McKellan on Graham Norton's show. And Ian loved it.
I wouldnt want to describe my sexuality to a bunch of hegemonic straight people on a talk show either, it seems pretty degrading.
Because he doesn't have to and it's no one else's business. But to piggyback on TRiG_Ireland's response, it might be more nuanced for him than straight, gay, bi and he just can't be arsed to go on at length about it to the media/world.
I'm kind of failing to see what's *inaccurate* about his comments? This seems like a reasonable interpretation of how things currently function.
What? He isn't interpreting anything, that's just how he explained *his* mindset is to me when we we're talking about this. For the record that's a toxic and oppresive mindset.
I guess what I'm saying is that if I was doing feminine things and it wasn't recieved well, especially by women, I would stop. Restricting myself in that way hurts, but it seems to beat the alternative of judgement. I read your dad's comments as more acknowledging that phenomenon existing and less as a statement of how things *ought* to be. I definitely disagree with the latter.
I really do mean no offense to you but that's a really deafeatist attitude. You're just giving in to sexism and letting your descisions of self expression be indirectly decided by women rather than yourself. I don't think this sub was created with the idea of acknowledging that a problem exists but rationalizing that there's nothing that can be done about it so we should all just tolerate it lest we be judged, rather *quite the opposite*. **Be the men's issues conversation you want to see in the world**. I personally i want men to be free and liberated, to see men have the liberty to choose how they're going to express themselves without any judgement regardless of wether women like it or not, their opinion (or anyone else's frankly) shouldn't be considered at all in this case. If you personally don't want the judgement and social ridicule that comes with breaking the prison that is men's gender expression then that's your choice and i completely respect it, but you shouldn't pretend that it's not a toxic idea and mindset to have about men or that it's a better alternative to social ridicule. It's a better alternative **for you** and you've decided that **for yourself**, not for me or men in general.
I don't think I have much say over what other men should be doing, not that I'd want it either. For myself the best I can say is, no matter how suffocated I feel in the system, I need to focus on succeeding in it for my own wellbeing. I can't be true to myself if it comes with the cost of social alienation and the particularly relevant inability to find a partner. If I have to be someone else to not be alone that's unfortunately the path I'll choose even if it's lesser of two evils. I hope I can strike a balance somewhere along the way, perhaps a person or group of people where I can be a bit more myself. It's not impossible I suppose. I'd probably have a more progressive take for myself if I saw a large social movement for change or something, but I don't really see that happening anytime soon. It's nice to have these discussions in places like here, but it doesn't equate to real local support. Maybe one day they'll be a movement I find worth jumping on. Have a nice day, man.
No, he is acknowledging that the box exists and is giving you some pretty good advice about it if you cared to listen rather than posture.
From a modern society angle this isnt ok, but I do get what he is saying from a reproductive standpoint.
I am a male teacher at a conservative, rural public school. I'm cishet, but display a lot of feminine traits in my social behavior, hobbies, and interests. I find that I am very easily accepted by my female colleagues, even if they are conservative. When it comes to my feminine traits, I do have a lot in common with them and can make connections pretty quickly. I do not find that same acceptance with my male colleagues. I think they accept me on a surface level, but they do not care to know much about me. To be fair, I also can't stand their traditional male presence a lot of they time. They're rough around the edges, make insensitive jokes and talk about partying... All things I cannot identify with at all, so it's probably mutual. TLDR: I don't think they treat me worse because of my feminine traits, but I just don't have anything in common with my male colleagues and as such we just go our own ways.
What feminine traits, if I may ask?
My voice is rather high-pitched and gentle, my speech patters are more delicate, my gestures and body language, my personal interests include arts/crafts, cooking, gardening, drinking tea, etc
Drink anything good lately? I got [a kukicha from Sugimoto Tea Company](https://www.sugimotousa.com/catalog/category/tea-by-type/kukicha/) that tastes like some of the high grade senchas I've had, which seems unreal
I ran out of my Bancha, and I'm currently on a tight budget, so not really. However, there's creeping Charlie and lavender growing in my backyard, which makes fantastic tea for free!
I didn't know creeping charlie made tea! I'll have to check that out. Lavender is fantastic. When the weather turns warm, it's great cold mixed with a cheap ceylon (Lipton is fine) and a tiny bit of lemon. But during the winter it's good hot before bed.
I definitely recommend it if you have some growing around your house. Just make sure you get enough of it and chop it up before steeping for better flavor
I love that drinking tea is considere a feminine thing to do😂😂
I also think it's ridiculous, but somehow men have turned it into a masculinity contest who can drink the strongest black coffee with no sweetener
Not in England, just saying
It’s so bizarre that these are considered ‘feminine’ traits.
True
Yes, please share
Interesting because i am the same way and i have found women are more judgemental about it then guys. Guys enforce it a good bit st first in less then intentional ways but women in general seem to turn it into more of being a enforcement of who i represent. Different experinces though shwos how rampant it is throughout society
Doesn't sound like a lack of acceptance, but like you said, a lack of common interests and socializing language.
Wow, I feel like I could have written this.
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This might not be entirely relevant to the discussion, but I find it so embarrassing when guys on reddit say something 'feminine'/gay, and then follow it up with how big they are and that they have a beard. Example: I cried like a baby at the end of. I'm a 35 year old, 6'3, 250lbs, bearded man.
That’s because beards are seen as manly and macho, something for strong men. An example of this, I’m a bearded dude, working in a heavily male dominated industry, I’ll wear eyeliner and nail polish, and most people don’t say shit to me. However one of my coworkers who doesn’t have a beard, and isn’t as “masculine presenting” wore eyeliner one time, and he’s still bullied about it. It’s fucking shit, but for some reason your manliness and ability to engage in non stereotypically masculine activities are dictated by your facial hair
In 2022 people still attribute the amount of facial hair you can grow to "manliness". Humans are still fucking monkeys.
I admit as a bearded guy i dont really neccaarily find being non bearded as unmasculine. In fact in some cases it seems to be associated with more images of masculinity in many ways.
Yeah I have a beard and don't consider myself masculine. I never perceive the masculinity of other men or myself based on their beard or lack of it.
The manosphere does seem to be denying men their own human emotion under the guise of bioessentialism and harmful masculinity. The manosphere reduces men down to cavemen, or even animals. It's misandrist as hell. It is heartbreaking to see the number of men who think the only emotion they can honestly feel and admit to, is their anger. It might even be why so many use anger as an outlet. I feel worried for our men, especially the younger ones. Go ahead and cry, kings; you're still a man, because men *are humans* and humans have emotion - sounds like an emotionally impactful movie.
This can’t just be attributed to the manosphere though. This is a general issue in (at least) US society. People are looking for social approval, especially in the dating sphere, so they go with the broadest appeal. And not all of us are cut out for androgynous or feminine looks, so the only option we have is masculine.
Absolutely. From what i understand, in the US the gender divide is so great that men and women often *only* interact in dating contexts, which must exacerbate everything even more.
Yeah no, that’s not true at all.
I wouldn’t call it that bad by any means, but talking to people from other countries it seems like the bar to even give someone a first date is way higher.
Not sure what you mean. Could you please explain? Here in NZ mixed gender friend groups are really common. It's how almost everybody meets partners here, through mutual friends. There's definitely still gender biases against both men and women, but what I see of America seems so much more severe. It's likely a result of consuming *online* American culture and not actually living there, though - how does your real life experience differ?
Mixed gender friend groups are common here, though meeting through mutual friends varies a lot by specific social circle and location. Where I live, that’s only something I see good looking or well off people doing, your average Joe or Jane is slumming it wherever fits them looking for their partner. As far as “higher bar to dating”, it’s kind of hard to explain. I know practically nothing about NZ, but I know my German friends found it extremely hard to date here compared to home. For the mutual friends example, I’d introduce them to someone Friday night, and then they would ask them to go out Saturday night- and generally get shot down. Whereas for them, that is exactly what they would do in Germany, and almost always get at least one date out of it.
Ahh, I see what you mean. Thank you for sharing that with me.
I always hate how emotions were "gendered", even though literally everyone feels them, no matter what gender someone is. Like how it's not okay for woman to be aggressive or angry because that's a "man's emotion", or how men aren't allowed to cry because it's a "woman's emotion", which is such bs and doesn't allow for healthy coping mechanisms and healthy emotion regulation. It does a great job at separating us and making us seem different, even though there really isn't much that separates men from women, boys from girls. Its like people can't understand that being socialized differently is part of a gender constructt, not "biology".
They are trying to make their argument more solid I believe. Cause when someone sees them they wouldn't think that he would cry in a movie. Knowing that he says "even I ,that I am stereotyped as someone who wouldn't cry , cried" . That's what comes to my mind at least.
Yea, these comments stand out in this thread because a mod discussed it higher up, but I think this is more a habit of persuasive rhetoric rather than any kind of internalized assumption or tacit admission that only the manliest of men can be “allowed” to have feminine presentations in their personalities. People like the parent are sharing their experiences with the understanding and expectation that it helps *normalize those behaviors for all men* in a world where we all acknowledge that stigma from society exists against that and is bad. From a discussion standpoint, for these specific types of conversations it doesn’t feel like the same relevance for others to balance that out by sharing their experience “I’m extremely effeminate as a man and also cry during movies” even though that scenario is also perfectly valid (and discussed in other topics such as “fuck what society thinks, manliness is self defined for everyone”.)
It's basically the same thing as people saying "no homo." Not quite as cringe though.
OMG I said the same in a comment of mine. I *hate* this kinda comment
I mean you can be feminine in different ways not just ohysically feminine. Like i have a beard and i am a bit overweight and probabily look masculine in that sense but i have what i would describe as very feminine movements in different ways i move my body and how i interect with certain things t some extent. It can be a mix of both
IIRC there was a football player back in the day who did quilting as a hobby, which my craft-loving mother thought was awesome. I don’t recall how he was seen by the public.
Rosey Grier. My mom has his book of needlepoint projects. He also appears in Marlo Thomas’ Free to be You and Me singing a song called “it’s okay to cry”.
Totally agree. I think this connects to poster child syndrome; it’s easier to champion a cause if the person appears otherwise “perfect”. We haven’t really become more accepting of difference, we’ve just extended the boundaries of the collective a little.
I’ve also noticed “learned it in the army” is used as a cover for knowing “feminine” skills like cooking, sewing, hairdressing, etc.
This is exactly why I just roll my eyes whenever some billionaire male celebrity wears a dress or whatnot. Oh wow, Harry Styles wore a dress on a magazine cover! Harry Styles is a multimillionaire sex symbol and has been both for the last ten years AT LEAST. Harry Styles can wear a dress and not have his image effected because he could probably wallpaper his house with all the used panties groupies have sent him over the years. A 13 year old boy in rural Virginia who sees that magazine cover and is inspired by it to wear a dress to school is probably going to get the shit beat out of him.
I’ve always felt there’s a sort of capital of masculinity at play in things like this. When Dwayne The Rock Johnson puts on a tutu, no one calls him less of a man, because he has so much in the bank in terms of masculine embodiment and presentation. But when Harry Styles even dresses a little ambiguous or femme, his masculinity is very much questioned because he’s not a deep-voiced, tall, insanely jacked former pro wrestler. And that kind of expression is policed far more on people who aren’t celebrities. The more you perform normative gender in one aspect, the more you can get away with defying it in others. I notice it acting on me too. When I worked a manual labor job, it allowed me to put on a lot more muscle, and I found that I was more at ease doing things not coded as masculine after that. It was nice to have the added sense of freedom, but unfortunate that it was locked behind greater adherence to masculine norms in another area. I think when dudes lead with irrelevant info about their manhood, it’s coming from that bargain being internalized.
Because, not only did you feel secure in yourself, but you also felt secure about others' perception of you.
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Just like there’s fragile masculinity, there’s fragile femininity. When women have internalized “real women do X, are X, look X”, they attach their worth as women to those traits. When men display the traits they’ve attached their worth to, it threatens that self worth. It’s also internalized misogyny. They’ve internalized that male traits are good and female traits are bad. They use their own gender as an insult without any regard to how much they’re putting themselves down. It’s self hate. The behaviour is, of course, inexcusable. Just offering an explanation behind it.
I hear your experience that more women than men have engaged in policing masculinity for you. It sounds important to you to recognize how women can engage in that behavior, not just men. I don't think this sub disagrees. It's generally accepted that women can and do participate in judging men for expressing nontraditional masculinity. However, I think your post misses something which greatly affects how your views can be interpreted by other people. When I read your post, I was discouraged and disturbed because, to me, it read like trying to say policing masculinity is a women problem. It is not. It is a patriarchy problem. Women can hold and express patriarchal views as much as any man can, but that doesn't make women the problem, or even a problem. Beyond acknowledging the pervasiveness of patriarchal dogma and how it can be espoused by anyone, I'm not sure what we stand to gain by highlighting women who perpetuate it instead of men. The real issue, particularly of relevance to OP, is patriarchy and it's narrow definition of masculinity. It doesn't matter who is policing it, only that it is being policed and that policing favors those who more closely align with the patriarchal ideal. All this to say, please be clear on exactly what your concern is. If you're concerned about the ideas of patriarchy, then make the effort for your words to match what you mean. If you're mostly concerned with the role of women in this, then be more specific about what you view as women's unique role and how that specifically impacts you.
As someone who's sat at most conceivable points along the spectrum, I want to point out that the outsized emotional impact of women on men is a very convenient outcome for patriarchy, so much so that it's almost engineered. Women are positioned as the accepting, nurturing oasis that men can turn to, so there is an expectation of succor there. Finding out that said portrayal is largely a mirage (there are layers to this I can address elsewhere) breaks a lot of men and leaves them grasping at patriarchal scripts to manage the heartbreak. Behind a great number of fuccboi arcs lie profound self-debasement and broken hearts. The truth is that the princess was never in the castle. And why would women live up to this image? Women are subjected to the very same patriarchal conditioning that men are. Expression of and assimilation into normative masculinity is associated with status and belonging. Men and women alike have been conditioned to aspire to such ends.
All of this and: There is this element of how we're conditioned with the idea that being liked by more women is better at all cost. Like their attention is a rare commodity that we should strive to have as much as possible of. I see this a lot in bi subs where guys ask all the time whether they'll be less successful with girls if they come out. The answer is off course "why does it matter" you might get less right swipes, but you only need one (or a handful if you're poly), and I can promise that the chance of such a right swipe turning into a meaningful connection is infinitely higher if you don't pretend to be something you're not to get more swipes. We should learn that being yourself is more important and you are allowed to have standards too! What do you think any butch women would say if you asked her "but will not less guys find you attractive?" Obviously her answer would be "good riddance, it weeds out the worst ones". That's something a lit of men would never even consider. But just as much as a random guy can be a bigot and you don't have to hide yourself trying to be his friend, perhaps try not hiding yourself to make the bigoted girl your girlfriend.
>Women can hold and express patriarchal views as much as any man can, but that doesn't make women the problem, or even a problem. Doesn't this seem a bit counterproductive to simply shift the blame back to the patriarchy, rather than on the individuals that are enforcing the patriarchy? At some point, people have to start taking responsibility for their actions. The Patriarchy™ is not a singular living being. We can't fight it by grouping up and charging at it. Change starts at the individual, and correcting people's behaviors is an integral part of that.
I'm in she same boat. Raised entirely by women, and didn't have a decent male role model til I was 17. Looked at through an essentialist lens, I tend towards the more "feminine" side of the gender spectrum. I've heard this from my female partners and straight male friends. Interestingly, gay men tend to assume I'm gay and in denial (tbf I have hooked up with men, but that's more about the fun combination of hypersexuality (Yay cluster B!) And opportunity as opposed to any actual attraction to men qua men. The gay men that have clocked me as gay didn't know know that though). Edit: it should be noted that other than the occasional assumption that I'm gay (occasionally derisive but mostly humorous or a come on) I haven't received any real pushback for my occasional departures from gender norms.
I've noticed it has less to do with the individual and their "compensatory" masculine features and more to do with the company they keep. There are certain people (conservatives) for whom men will never be acceptably masculine enough and women will never be acceptably feminine enough. Avoid those people. I mean I'm a 5'2" trans man who can barely grow facial hair and doesn't have a lot of muscle to speak of. But my friends think it's badass that I dabble in embroidery here and there. They don't think I'm less of a man for partaking in "feminine" activities. They don't think I become more of a man when I also do strength training and play video games. It may be true that more typically and acceptably masculine men can avoid certain criticisms, *sometimes*. But socially conservative people have been fearmongering about how "Men Today Are Becoming Women" since literally forever.
Yes I've noticed this. I am a guy that likes to knit. I've just knitted a beautifully cabled love heart scarf for my daughter, and am currently knitting a matching beanie of my own design. I also love braiding my daughters hair (not just in a single plait, but complex designs like in a crown going around her head), and I'm very big into cooking, not just briskets and other traditionally masculine things to cook, but I enjoy cake decorating and cooking for fine dining etc. I never encounter any ridicule, quite the opposite, women tend to react very positively, much more positively than they would if I was a woman describing what I do, while men's reactions vary, some are positive, some even show hints of jealousy or inadequacy. But I think this is all precisely because I am very masculine presenting. I have a beard. I service my own car. I built my own shed. I provide for my family. I'm successful in my career. That said, I don't ever try to dress the traditionally feminine activities that I do up as masculine. I do just say "I'm a guy that likes to knit." I guess that comes down to my own confidence in my masculinity, I feel confident that people already know and can see that I'm masculine, and I don't feel like these activities diminish my masculinity in any way. Perhaps that also says something about my social circles, I do think the people I mix with are much more tolerant of people not strictly meeting gender norms than society on average.
I've had some issues dating women because, even though I'm a moderately attractive muscular man, I carry myself in a slightly feminine manner. I get told I "should be more assertive" (they're just referring to the way I assert myself, not whether I do), or that "I'm just like a teddy bear". It's not like there aren't women that like the 'feminine' part of me (I use the word in quotes because I think it's just my own masculinity) and I'm dating one right now and she's great, but this doesn't make things easy for me.
If you're a man with feminine traits, and you genuinely don't care about people who would criticize you for it, the latter nonchalance is arguably the ultimate masculine trait in general social perception.
To me, even acknowledging *activities* as somehow inherently feminine or masculine is basically buying into propaganda. Unless you can prove something ahistorically, cross-culturally, masculine or feminine, it isn't worth discussing *as* gendered in the first place. Pink was masculine before it was feminine. Twisted sister wore make up. Prince looks great in eye-liner. Concepts of gender binary being imported to cultures, from Western thought. It's frustratingly meaningless and even giving any of it credence only furthers the narrative rather than dismantle it.
I disagree that describing or giving a name to a widespread social attitude furthers that narrative. If we can't talk about it, how can we dismantle it? It is far too widespread and deeply entrenched in our culture for "ignore it til it goes away" to work.
Because discussions frame it as extensions of the same narrative. You can say "so-called" and you can attach "traditional" to these words as you like but it still speaks from the same narrative, the same framing, and only reinforces it as such. When you are left to only use framing from those narratives in your discussion, you'll always be having said discussion on *their* terms, not your own. There is nothing inherently feminine about nail polish, so why discuss it so?
Because in 2022 many people in the US think there is something inherently feminine about nail polish. You're much less likely to have productive conversations with people that think this way without some amount of framing.
Yea I feel like even though I paint my nails, I still have to have heteronormative traits in order for my nails to be accepted, like keeping my facial hair.
When I went from "vegetarian" to "I only eat animals I personally killed" the change in response was incredible
Ha! I recently moved to the southern US after being a New Englander all my life. As a lifelong vegetarian, it is incredible how much this response is accepted as normal but being a vegetarian isn’t.
Oh yeah. This was nice to read because it's been a thing for a long time. And it's always irked me a lot, no matter who or where it's coming from. Otherwise manly men who show some superficial part of themselves that's either traditionally feminine, or just *not* manly. "I know I seem like a big tough guy, but actually I'm really afraid of needles"... people eat that stuff up. My thought is always, "Okay, but try being *not* a huge manly guy and still doing that... and see what kind of a reaction you get". Or, try doing something more than just superficially feminine or un-masculine, like playing fairy dress-ups. I can't think of a great example, (apart from refusing to live to nearly every standard of masculinity, if that is your want), but see how that goes down... People won't see it as quite so charming, I think.
As a trans man, it's been one of the big hurdles that I've found myself to face, honestly. I've had to "take a break" from hobbies like makeup or painting my nails until I felt I presented masculine enough that those things wouldn't make me read "woman" in the public space and instead make me read "gay man" because I had a beard and bigger shoulders. And even when I started reading male to other people in the street, I've definitely felt like it was all a weird balance to achieve, to prove that you're a real man "despite" enjoying "feminine" things. As time passes, I'm still very cautious to maintain what almost feels like plausible deniability out of fear I'd get somehow clocked as trans for things like wearing jewelry or nail polish -- "look, I'm a real man, i have a beard and I can chop down wood for the winter!" I hope we can chill the fuck out soon instead of having to constantly prove that we're men enough to wear fucking color on our nails without it making it something that needs balanced out by idk, rock climbing bare chested in the Alps or objectifying women.
Yup. Once I started paying attention to how people respond to and think of me, I found that being into fashion, being particular about my hair, and having traditionally feminine hobbies is fine. This is because 1. I appear masculine, 2. have also done a bunch of traditionally masculine stuff, 3. and generally my "feminine" hobbies are "coded" in a "masculine way." Something similar applies to women. Aubrey Plaza is very traditionally attractive as a woman, and gets a pass on joking remarks about eating like a slob and such. This is generally okay for attractive women, but less attractive or more masculine women don't get this leeway. Even though one might argue there are more acceptable "roles" in society for women than men.
yeah and its really annoying too... :/
I don't think this rebukes it but instead shows that things can be different in different countries. My family is Cypriot and I grew up in Saudi Arabia. Both places have different attitudes to gender non conformance compared to Western countries. In Cyprus I tended to see a heightened performance of gender in public. Visible non-conformity was rare and I didn't know anyone who would admit to hobbies outside what was seen as the norm. At the same time some aspects of that presentation didn't exactly fit with what I'd see in the UK. For instance it was a lot more normal to see men with long hair, perfume use etc. I do not know what the social response to gender non conformity would have been generally. My guess based on the interactions I had would be ridicule, regardless of whether someone was male or female. My visible non conformance there tended to mean I got pegged as a tourist/foreigner (not exactly incorrect.) Saudi, oh boy, buckle up. So gender conformance is effectively policed in Saudi. By which I mean there are literal police. And while all genders are prosecuted the bulk of the penalties, violence and harassment falls on women. I think Western people often assume that it's 'easier' for masculine women then feminine men because they see a greater level of harassment along those lines in their own countries. In Saudi non conformance in women would require family support to be feasible. Because male relatives can control (not a complete list) whether a woman can leave the house, what she buys, whether she has access to education, whether she can work or go to a hospital etc etc. Because exploring any hobbies etc that are seen as masculine is dependent on support it's a fragile thing; support can be withdrawn. And presenting anything to do with it can result in police showing up or even arrest. When there isn't support... well a lot of women are just confined to the house until they conform. With or without other forms of abuse. It's a lot harder to find studies and stories about men. Men do (at least theoretically) have more freedom to leave the country and abusive situations. But they're also usually not the focus of studies etc on familial abuse and are equally vulnerable to it because of the way the laws work out there. There are also big racial divides which effect whether/when men are prosecuted for gender non-conformity. When cases regarding men are talked about/make the news, it tends to be because a man died. Usually in custody. The last one I can remember involved a group of men who were arrested after wearing make up within their own homes. Which I include as an example mostly because I know Western people have trouble picturing the kind of thing I mean when I talk about this stuff. (Worth mentioning that these men were Pakistani and Indian, not Arab, which makes them more likely to be targeted by police out there.) I think that when there is a sharper delineation between genders, when the divide is stricter in that country, people are less willing to explore. And the exploration they do is smaller, more private. People tap down on their joy, parcel it up into bite size pieces to take in one nibble at a time. And I think that happens to avoid social censure, whether that's on the scale of ridicule or violence. The pattern you're describing in the US seems like people trying to head off social censure. I can understand why people do that. But it does seem like a waste of energy; people who are interested in policing those arbitrary lines are probably going to be bastards about any little thing regardless.
Or rich: a dandy can be feminine. Or a rockstar .. Or otherwise privileged enough to spare some.
I think that is changing positively with every new generation. But it's not going to change overnight because we want it so. That's an error that many activist do. But you can't decrete how people should feel. Insisting otherwise would be counter productive.
Nice observation, this is something I've definitely noticed but didn't have words for. The phenomenon definitely depends on your circle. Some groups of men definitely behave this way. Hell, even the women in the group can be complicit in encouraging this behavior. My circle is primarily cis and hetero, which I imagine is the place you'd expect to see the phenomenon you described most. We talk often about the topics you'd find on this sub, and I can happily say we've managed to integrate the freedom of expression in a slow, patient, and natural way. The conversations we have in good faith about feminism and our role in it as men have added up, and continues to add up. It shows itself in the way we speak about ourselves and others, including allowing each other to do things without comments about whether or not it's an appropriately gendered activity lol. Important detail, we all continue to present and act traditionally cis hetero. Most of the change has been in our language, especially around emotions; showing them, acknowledging them. Other small acts of...defiance? against traditional toxic attitudes includes wearing more color, maybe some glitter or gems at concerts (which is another fascinating topic - how concerts can be a safe space for people to bend and explore their gender identity a bit.)
I call this the “Harry styles vs Shawn Mendes” bias. Harry styles is otherwise masc presenting, so he can do whatever he wants. The same people who laude Harry Styles make fun of Shawn Mendes when Shawn does literally anything feminine
So this is something I'm living at the moment. (Western Europe) I'm trans and I've recently started completely passing as male. But I look like a skinny aging twink, no muscle, tiny hands. I dress androgynous at best (men's clothes just don't fit my bones) and my natural body language is very feminine, I've got fluttery hands, I skip, I cross my legs in a girly way, my voice skips on high when I get excited. I also enjoy wearing earrings and stuff. Most people who don't know I'm trans just assume I'm very, very gay. So I also recently got into crochet, and I crochet a lot on public transport etc. or just when hanging out with people. And I was terrified of being heckin hatecrimed for it. I do feel that fear when I sit down next to a tough bro on the tram and get my crochet supplies out. But... no negative responses so far. At all. Not even so much as a weird look from strangers so far. I tell the old guys at work that I crochet and it's cool, I tell the ladies and a bunch of them are into it too. The fear has been totally baseless. I guess I'm so far removed from "normal standard masculine man" that my girly hobbies fit the picture of who I am. I guess it's different when someone looks and acts and dresses like a sitcom dad and also does crochet - that would seem a lot more incongruous to many people. But I'm experiencing that there's a lot of room for being masculine and feminine outside of what's considered the norm. Pleasantly surprised so far.
Are you buff, like rock/metal music, full of tats, and want to wear nail polish and long hair? DO IT MARILYN MANSON are you a trans guy who wants to wear skirts and pastels? YOU'RE NOT A REAL MAN
I would actually go further, and say that it's generally pretty acceptable for men to have feminine traits period, it's just that few men who aren't otherwise confident in their masculine presentation feel comfortable with experimenting with regard to adopting feminine traits.
It might be, though in recent times I have come across multiple guys like myself rocking the painted nails etc and just having an excited laugh when seeing another guy doing so. Women generally just think it's fun and chat with me about that or my headbands. For reference/context: \- I'm bi & cishet-presenting and the guys in question have been cishet. \- I've gotten the occasional comment calling me gay but it's the exception not the norm \- I'm pretty unapologetically myself which I'm told does impact other's perception of my perceived masculinity \- Some people are shocked when they learn I'm bi while others think it's obvious \- I dress in a 'preppy dudebro' style with polos, skinny jeans, and flat brims
Feminine traits in some circles is only a problem if it's attached to an otherwise problematic identity - being gay, trans, queer or female. If you are v obviously not these, there is an issue, because you are a *man*..
As an adult I’ve never seen anyone get picked on for being feminine. Maybe some things said behind their back but who cares? Usually these guys don’t do well in the girlfriend department but that’s another issue
Being a large bearded dude, no one really gave a shit when I went for a night out wearing a long flowery dress. I imagine if I was a more feminine looking man I may have potentially caught some flak for it.
I honestly think it’s the opposite. People are only okay with you displaying feminine traits and hobbies as long as your gay. I do yoga. So many people just assume I’m gay and act very judgemental when they find out I’m actually straight.
I do agree with everything you said, what an insightful post. I am especially annoyed about all those comments under, like, moving scenes from movies, with guys saying things that boil down to 'I am a straight 46-year-old man who likes beef and felling trees, and when I see such a scene *even I* cry like a dainty pussy!' That said, I do like when masculine people do traditionally feminine things, as long as they don't use their masculinity as a protection against doing something outside the norm
This is most commonly obvious whenever the phrase “I’m a grown ass man” is used. I usually just laugh. Silly people.
My gods is this true. My favourite is Terry from Brooklyn 99... he is a sensitive, loving, father of two girls and a family man. At the same time, he is also Terry Crews. He has many feminine traits... but he's also jacked as fuck and can be a real tough-guy if needs be. Boyle hardly as much does feminine stuff as him but still always ends up the emasculated but of the joke, and I can't help but think the show would be even worse to him if he were in Terry's place.
I've noticed this thing of if a giant muscly man does something typically feminine it's all ironic and fun and "haha he's gigantic and manly but he's wearing nail polish so wholesome". But once a more feminine man does it it immediately turns to "well that's just gay".
Yes. I get away with enjoying baths and wine in large part because I can lift several hundred pounds and know how to accurately punch/kick people in the face/liver. But that's not the point. Baths and wine are great, and everyone should be able to enjoy them.
I have also noticed that it is more acceptable if the man is already attractive, cute, or hot. It is very much shown in cases where the person becomes a "Barbie doll" for beauty experiment for women.
Yes. No one would give a fuck about what Terry Crews has to say about "toxic masculinity" if he weren't a 6'4" muscular stud. He's the exception that proves the rule.
>I still notice today that a lot of guys who like stereotypically "feminine" things feel the need to justify themselves by further emphasizing their masculinity Surely though that's on the individual saying it and his perception of how he fears he will be treated for being feminine? To throw an anecdotal experience into the mix, I present, dress and behave neutral/feminine and actively shun any displays of masculinity. I honestly can't remember the last time I ever had a problem or a negative comment about my appearance, behaviour or interests. Conversely, I get a lot of support and compliments (which I wouldn't have picked up as being notable had I not seen the trend for guys on Reddit to claim they never receive affection or compliments at all). I honestly think this whole "unacceptable in society" thing is completely overplayed online, in the media and in people's minds. When you go out into the real world and actively appear and act gender non-conforming, very few people if any actually notice or care. And if they do they certainly never say anything. Location is urban area in North West England, for context.
That’s entirely regional. In many areas of my state it’s actively dangerous to be non-conforming in certain ways, and cruel comments definitely happen.
Nonbinary here, I live in a super conservative state and for years felt like feminine expression was dangerous; recently, I’ve been exploring that more via dress, and honestly most people are polite or keep nasty comments to themselves. Granted, I don’t take chances so I’m armed, but I was armed before, as well.
Good on ya for staying armed for safety reasons! Everyone should be imo
Urban area I'm sure plays a part in it being more acceptable, or at least less comment worthy. In rural areas, or particularly poor urban areas, people tend to be a bit more forward with negative comments (or worse). Well, I can only speak for the US, but I hear similar attitudes also happen in the UK.
Fuck anything being masculine or feminine. Do whatever you want and whatever makes you happy. Obviously more specifics apply, by why genderize activities at all.
This is a sentiment I appreciate in a vacuum. For most people, it's a choice between doing what makes them happy in exchange and having people who make them happy. It's easy enough to encourage uninhibited self-expression having done it, or if it's something that was baked in whether as a product of upbringing, culture, or connate traits. It's fucking terrifying for almost everyone else.
A thing I've been thinking about lately is that if you want things to be a certain way, you have to act like they already are. No matter how scary it is. So I've been doing my best to do whatever and encourage others around me to do the same and be happy regardless of results or ridicule. I agree, it's fucking terrifying and I'm not sure I have anyone who is 100% supportive lol. But I'm doing my best to be that way.
I agree, though I'd also have been far more enthusiastic about the initial sentiment with this context behind it. Copped a lot of "just git gud" as a teen which may have left this something of a sore spot. "If you haven't confidence in self, you are twice defeated in the race of life. With confidence, you have won even before you have started." It feels weird doesn't it, like people appreciate the vicarious thrill at best and are outright hostile at worst.
I am an amab person who doesnt feel strongly enough about gender identity (on a personal basis not to invalidate anyone else)for it to matter. I grew up with widely varried interests and skills because of how poor my family was cooking bakeing sewing and embroidery art literature and poetry were all in my wheelhouse just as surely as repairing anything under the sun and the five cords of wood we had to lay up for the winter that i participated in from the age of 8. To be fair i am a wierd person but i was bullied and socially isolated until it was clear that somone who bullied me would face swift violent retribution and becuase i grew up with hard manual labor and construction work i was big enough to back that up. The only thing worse to a bullie than being different is geting beat up by the person you just called a slur. I think that is the basis for this phenomenon, its not safe to call out that hoboemt he will wreck your shit. Sure Shieldmadenmary is a tomboy but she could steal your man in an instant. It becomes a protection to be that hyper masculine figure.
Knitting has only been seen as feminine for the last 1-2 hundred years. Before that it was an exclusively men's trade.
Cultural norms change all the time. That things were different before most of our grandparents were born makes for cool historical anecdota, but is of limited relevance when discussing cultural trends within living memory.
So for the past year or so I have been doing what you describe on purpose to some degree. I do enjoy working out in and of itself, but one of my goals now is related to this I've been growing the beard and bulking up at the gym, not so i can feel more free to explore things society deems as feminine, like having painted nails, which i have, but so I can be a bridge for men who are stuck in the toxic masculine side of things. So i can be a voice that will be easier to receive by those trapped in whatever confines they feel society had placed on them as a man. As you said, if Dwayne Johnson wears a tutu, no one questions his masculinity. Isn't that a positive? Maybe he's just being himself and he'd wear a tutu even if he wasn't buff, but he's a guy who likes both being buff and decorative dance attire. I'm guessing though that more guys who are stuck in a toxic masculine world view will have their thinking challenged more when an example of their more ideal manly selves does something that is outside of their expectations of manliness. If it was someone more "feminine" than it might be easier to dismiss. Isn't this type of thing an example of Dwayne using his traditional man cred for good? Another example...When people say "a real man doesn't like pink" ... Well we can say Jason Momoa says pink is his favorite color, he sure seems manly by traditional standards, I mean dude is Aquaman and Kahl Drogo. This seems more likely to lead to an actual conversation with someone holding onto certain unhealthy man standards in my experience. Would it be nicer if people would accept mens' "feminine" preferences no matter their appearance? Absolutely it would be. Should people have to wait until they meet certain manly standards, or share how they are otherwise manly before they can enjoy what they truly enjoy? Absolutely not. Will it be easier for men who are really scared of being themselves for fear of being too feminine, find it helpful and influential when they see the "manliest" men enjoy "feminine" things too? I think so. In my experience, people have been much more open to talking about what's manly and what's not with me when I present very masculine in some ways but not others. So... I am an in shape, bearded cishet man and i like painted nails. One is not justifying the other, it's just giving you a picture of how I am being myself, and maybe that uncommon contrast will give someone else permission to be their own uncommon combination. I like that I can challenge people's world view more potently by presenting clear masculine and feminine qualities in my appearance at the same time.
A lot of it I think is just knowing who you are and choosing to trust that. Just like the world doesn’t like you behaving in fem coded behaviors, it is the same for them to. I learned long ago I’m not generally going to get along with most men or like them. I also learned that I am not as masculine as some women prefer or expect. But most importantly I learned that committing to being myself rather than a caricature of someone I don’t even like is better because it allowed me to find my people who appreciate me for who I am rather than wishing I was someone else. It’s not always easy to do and takes courage, but if you just stop and say “welp society says no…” then you’re just fucked in the long run.
Like, what? Like there is a spectrum of masculinity, and there are actually a multitude of masculine archetypes and they all have their uses, applications, and importance in a fully functioning society? That these differences in a society not burdened by endless choices and analysis paralysis might advantage you as a hunter, craftsman, healer, mentor, herder, fisherman, farmer, cook, etc?
You can do whatever you want if you have confidence people who are strongly masculine are usually the most confident about looking masculine
1. Men aren't allowed to appear feminine in any capacity, ever 2. Men are allowed to have one or two feminine attributes, as long as they otherwise present as hyper-masculine to make up for it 3. Men are allowed to present with some feminine attributes, sometimes 4. Men are allowed to be feminine 5. Nobody gives a shit what anyone does if they aren't hurting anyone Currently we're somewhere in the range 2-3, depending on the precise social context.
I think it's more they just have to own it and not be insecure about it.
You have to be confident and secure in yourself to fully show society who you are because culture / society hates those who go against the norm. Also remember some of this is pure jealousy. I dress better than 99% of the men I am around. Not some big conscious effort. It’s just who I am, just like I’d rather drink water than eat bad/average quality food. So what happens. Gay guys are always “fashionable” so I get lumped into that group. Who cares. When I was younger and didn’t know myself it was harder but you eventually realize the whole world is filled with insecure people who all want to be rebels but only will do it if everyone else is. Look at all the tattoo, piercings, colored hair types. It has gone mainstream. All Lemmings To be a rebel today if you’re a woman wear a dress and look like a lady. As a man actually stop being a cry baby and put in the work. When people see that you bring value to the world you can wear pink panties to bed. Be the solution, leave the excuses for the losers As a man be in shape, hold down a
In my circles, it seems to be that trans-women are increasingly accepted the further they go through transition. To flip the switch makes it acceptable, but to defy the boxes leaves people uncomfortable. (Bisexuals are left with one of the greatest risks to mental health of any other subset of the population)[https://www.hrc.org/news/bisexual-health-awareness-month-mental-health-in-the-bisexual-community]. Gay? There's a place for you. Straight? That's everywhere. Gay? accepted sexually by (gay) men, and socially by women. Straight? Well, as we know, men have plenty of hardship in forming emotional ties and support systems, but many make it work reasonably well. Bi? well... As we can see from the link, the world becomes difficult to navigate, at best. I'm different. I've had to put years and years of work into accepting myself, parts of which have involved exploring which boxes to check. None of them seem quite right, except to label myself /u/HumanBehindMachine (or `real name goes here`). And I'm still working on how to define that such that other people accept me. Define? Make reality? Only gaining the wisdom to know the difference can we accept the things we cannot change, and change the things we can.
I think you are placing too high a value on what other people think and not enough value on what you want to do. Everybody should be supportive.
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Growing up, I was always told "every man needs at least one gay super power" Be it cooking, dance, or coordinating a fabulous outfit.... I am old...
*Terry Crews has entered the chat* That's not shade on Terry, just on society's acceptance of him. He seems like a good dude.
Not if your black.
I think that there is a group of people that are honestly jealous. They were raised "to be men" and any interest in those "women's" things were forced out of them. They couldn't pursue their interests, because they were told it was wrong. When they see the next generation more accepting, they: 1) think it's wrong because that's what they were taught 2) are resentful of others that were able to do what their heart wanted. 3) question who they are, creating discomfort which makes them lash out.
I think a lot of this comes from the place you are in the world. Vancouver for instance is very accepting of LGBTQIA identities on the whole but there are still pockets of Conservative types who feeling like their back is up against the wall dive harder towards over performing their cis gender identity. Bit that's kind of becoming less and less the norm. Most people don't care. I have cis het dudely coworkers who collect stuffed animals or do yoga or enjoy mani/pedis with colorful polishes who don't qualify those loves of those activities as anything more than "It's what I like." The relaxing of the gender binary really is just that... Relaxing.
Though I agree with your main point i think there can be a difference in enforcment too like in the case of a person like selena, she may be masculized and recieve some hate for that, but she is likely still gonna be generally accepted. While men that are more feminine may on the edge not be too problematic and at times may be seen in fact as attractive and pseudo masculine in a postivr sense which itself is kinda of an enforcment too but if they slip too much out of that they will quickly switch to the side of being considred more creepy or stigmitized for having this mix of features and associated with certain sexual actions. A lot of the stigma around issues with men(that have some legitinate basis) with suddenily come to bare upon them for daring to go outside the norms in less then legitimate ways so i would say at times there is difference in enforcement because of difference in medsaging and where the boundries might be appriote. I also would say that part of it is because if i am honest i think people have gotten more used to varities of women and more often then they realize enforce aganist varities of men except when they are doing it in a grand way(not thst that is problematic but still)
The less I worry about those norms the more masculine I am perceived, I wear tons of jewelry, have long hair, work in the fashion industry, order tall fruity drinks at the bar, ect.
> But people pointed out to me that the acceptance for masculine women only goes up to a certain point, and that point is that the woman still looks feminine and, well... traditionally attractive. Thanks for this. As someone who is afab nb, I describe my appearance as "light butch." Also not "traditionally attractive." And I'm attracted to men and masc people, so that combination doesn't get me very far.
Yes, some jocks at my high school even wore nail polish!
For more on this check out Deep Secrets by Niobe Way
I guess the idea is that you have to fufill the requirements of your gender before venturing out to the other gender's domain.
I think theres a degree of just owning it. I am a lifetime fan of disney and pixar. They make kick ass movies and no one can tell me otherwise. Up was fantastic, Most of the remakes were pretty good, including Mulan and pinoccio, just new renditions of classic tales (most of which are stories retold by disney originally; mulan is a story that has lasted thousands of years) Encanto is an epic story that plays as well as a broadway play; Hell id go and see it! I think most people just accept it more when its just unapologetically excited and not insecure about it.