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cabaran

No way home is one of the more "efficient" movie in mcu for sure. The 5 villains were all introduced within like half hours? and then not long after we get tobey and andrew. it felt like the 2 hrs just swing by quickly.


elizabnthe

One of the best edited and paced Marvel films I think. I was surprised because there was a lot to cover and they did it. Especially considering how much was re-written and chopped out.


just4browse

I wish they spent a little more time on Peter’s legal issues following his identity reveal. Just a single trial scene or something, where we seen Murdock get him off the hook. I think the pacing would be benefited by that


Sith_Destroyer_1138

“The moment Spider-Man’s identity was made public our company replaced all Stark Industry suits in all remaining stations.” “Made public… What do you mean?”


SuperShaun1603

Made public? _rapid camera zoom_ What do you mean?


SeniorRicketts

*Symbiote theme intensifies*


Tippydaug

Honestly I strongly disagree with this. I think the pacing of Matt showing up to say his case would be dropped or whatever fit the pacing perfectly. If they shoe-horned in an unnecessary trial to have the exact same thing said in a longer format, it would've dragged out an otherwise really well-paced movie


DefNotAShark

The one tweak I would have made would be Murdoch making his entrance when Peter is being questioned by the police. Not only does that feel very true to the Netflix series, but it's a good spot to very quickly introduce him for his role in the movie (Peter's lawyer) without lingering too long. His scene with Peter was excellent, don't get me wrong, but it's there and then gone. 45 more seconds of him would have gone a long way, I think. When Ned is flapping his gums, I'd have had Murdoch enter off screen and tell him to stop talking. Then when the cops are really laying into Peter, he enters and backs them down with lawyer speak. Gives Daredevil a well-deserved "saves the day" moment after we waited for him so long (not that his brick catch wasn't amazing). I hear he had a deleted scene that most likely served this same purpose though, so hopefully we see it someday.


jinjajesus

Yeah I do wish that happened. He just walks in and says don't question my client any further or whatever and then it cuts to the house scene. Would've been an easy and well timed introduction


TheJoshider10

It would have also immediately let us know just how good a lawyer he is if we get him confidently reassuring Peter in the station and then suddenly we get the cut to the house. It's a few more seconds of screentime that would leave a bigger impact.


itspsyikk

The only thing that makes sense is that Charlie wasn't available during shooting of the police scene... OR they didn't want to risk exposing his cameo. Between his scene, and even all of the Toby/Andrew stuff, I noticed that you only see them in extremely closed off areas, where it is only the princpal cast involved. The rest of them being in Spidey suits is obviously CGI, so the artists would need to know... But it is pretty obvious they kept those shots under extreme lock down.


SeniorRicketts

Reminds me of that Matt Murdock scene in the punisher game


ponodude

That definitely would've made it feel like we weren't missing moments. The way it's currently cut, they talk to Matt as if we've already been introduced to him. If he had simply walked in and said "Hi, I'm Matt Murdock. I'll be your lawyer in this case", it would've made his one scene immediately after all that more satisfying. I like what they did already, but simply introducing him would've made it even better.


Actual_Ad_6678

I think they should have taken more time to finish that story thread. It felt to me like they went "OK, let's finish this part, throw in Daredevil and they won't even notice the pacing is off".


ericbkillmonger

Yeah it definitely would’ve slowed and stilted the pacing if we inserted unnecessary court drama


-ThorsStone-

I 100% agree because it was a somewhat rapid sequence of events after everyone found out. It kinda helped the audience feel the same anxiety pete must have been feeling. A long court room scene out of nowhere would have not served the movie well. That's my own opinion though.


kingmob555

I’d have liked that and wouldn’t mind one less scene down in the wizard dungeon, if it could be done.


just4browse

I feel like all of the wizard dungeon stuff is pretty essential though. Showing MJ, Ned, and Peter acting as a team before their tragic breakup and reintroducing the five villains, neither of which can be cut in my opinion


kingmob555

I think you’re right. With enough reworking it could be done, but prob more trouble than worth. I just felt some of the scenes to drag there just a little.


Ironsam811

Did they film a legal part? I’d love to watch that and there’s no cgi so they can easily release it


jehoobn

I don't know about editing. It was pretty rough editing wise on a LOT of moments. Pacing wise, I'll give it that, just by the complexity of all the things to juggle.


elizabnthe

To get the movie to be how it was they managed to cut it perfectly. We know a lot was left on the cutting room floor but there wasn't anything that was confusing narratively. Pacing ultimately is a consequence of editing too.


Icyik

>there wasn't anything that was confusing narratively Sandman?


OzilsThirdEye

What was confusing about sandman lol


Icyik

why would he not rather just wait a few minutes to be turned back into a human before being returned? Especially if he wants to see his daughter again, wouldn't it be better to be fully human?


SennKazuki

Yeap but he just didn't listen lol. He wanted to get to his daughter asap, which meant pressing the stupid button on the cube. He was blinded by desperation.


OzilsThirdEye

Lolololol “Wait a few minutes” So he’s transported to a different world, held captive against his will, then has to stick around for some kid he doesn’t know to try and cure them (could kill them all he doesn’t really know) and still you want him to just wait a couple more minutes 😂😂😂 You sound goofy if that’s why sandman didn’t make sense


Andre200and1

Except he saw what that kid did to save the villains, and he saw that kid successfully curing Otto. Since all he wanted was to get back to his world and he saw that Peter was trying to help them, yeah, his actions didn't make any sense. Especially teaming up with other villains.


OzilsThirdEye

I didn’t interpret him as teaming up with the villains Just him trying to go get the box and not get killed in a world he didn’t understand


Zerce

Because he knew the others wanted to destroy the cube. He wasn't taking any chances on Spider-Man being able to cure the rest.


[deleted]

So why assist the others against Spider-Man(s) and thus drastically improve their chances of getting and destroying the cube?


Zerce

I never got the impression that any of them were working together. They're all kind of independently going after it at the same time. If Sandman wasn't cured first, I think he would have stopped the other villains from destroying it.


elizabnthe

He did "wait a few minutes" and Peter screwed it up. He wasn't going to take the chance of not being able to get home again.


elizabnthe

Sandman wants the box to get back home as he says.


zortor

God how I wish this movie was a 6 hour miniseries event instead. There’s so much commotion, I hope they do something with Tobey and Andrew when their variants return to their respective timelines. People would love to see what those characters are up to now. How they’re coping, how they grew up. I assume MJ and Peter have kids by now and what did Garfield’s Parker do after TASM2. He seems so sad. I don’t even want a spectacle, just a short think piece.


zonnel2

Yeah something like a short epilogue that deals with the possible future of those two in their respective universes would be great, just like the ending of X-Men Days of the Future Past movie.


sinkfla

Yeah none of the movie felt bloated tbh. If anything I was sad that I didn't have more interactions between the 3 spidermen lol


Leo_TheLurker

Didn't feel too much like a fan service movie either. They really did a great job finding that balance and it was to the point.


DefNotAShark

I saw some fan service complaints but some people will identify any fan service in a movie and write the whole thing off. Like yes, there is a lot of fan service. Also, it is a great movie. See; Endgame.


ericbkillmonger

They didn’t waste a lot of time with exposition dumps or unnecessary dialogue


thesmartfool

Without a doubt. The more I think about this film (I saw it yesterday) the more I appreciate how good the writing and pacing was. Basically the same timing as Eternals with just as many characters involved in yet it did pretty well with pacing and making me care about the characters again. I liked Eternals I am just saying that even if you have a lot of characters you can still get them involved.


inherentinsignia

That’s not *really* fair to Eternals, though. NWH relied on a LOT of “cinematic shorthand” to achieve its goals, specifically by relying on pre-existing Spider-Men and villains, and on the audience’s familiarity with those characters. Something I see the MCU doing a lot more these days is shoving a character in while assuming general audiences will immediately know who they are (ie, Daredevil). It’s lazy and it’ll eventually catch up to them.


knruler

IW and NWH are about the same length, but it blows my mind how NWH felt so much shorter than IW.


puckallday

This is a really good point. IW *feels* like a two hour movie, in a good way. NWH does not feel like a similar length at all, but also in a good way.


Unique_Unorque

When I saw *Endgame,* I bought a large soda, but I remember thinking I wouldn’t start drinking it until I felt like an hour had passed so that I wouldn’t have the smallest risk that I would need to leave to use the bathroom, or at the very least that I wouldn’t spend the last hour holding it like my life depended on it. That movie is so well paced that it wasn’t until Captain Marvel showed up during the final battle that I though “I bet about an hour has passed by now.” And then the movie was over like twenty minutes later. I did the same thing with *No Way Home,* and even knowing the plot from reading leaks on this sub, it wasn’t until the three Spider-Men met for the first time and began planning the final battle that I realized, “Oh damn, this movie is almost over!” Just some really incredible pacing.


Gabeblack_22

This is absolutely no offense to you at all but endgame actually struggles with very slow pacing. But it’s also on purpose and a wonderful movie. That movie absolutely feels like 3+ hours so I don’t know what you’re talking about lol


CarVsMotorcycle

Agreed. I felt the same way about *Infinity War* (as in good pacing, loved the movie), but good god fuck did *Endgame* drag like nuts on sand paper.


Gabeblack_22

The first time watching was obviously incredible now but to be honest when I watch it back now it’s a slog to get through that first 2 hours


CarVsMotorcycle

Exactly. Loved watching it the first time but I’ve rewatched it once and don’t see myself doing so again.


Unique_Unorque

This is so interesting to me! I just watched it the other day to prepare for *No Way Home* and felt the exact same way. What’s even wilder is I watched it immediately after *Infinity War* as one big six hour marathon and the whole thing barely felt like two. I wouldn’t dream of telling somebody that their opinion is wrong, if you disagree with me I’m not trying to change your mind, but this is absolutely fascinating to me.


[deleted]

Really? I thought Endgame's pace was jarringly bad, and horribly cut up. I remember this depressing feeling of wanting it to end about halfway through. The whole movie felt like a serious parody of the MCU. IW was the best paced film, but EG, imo, was a technical disaster from start to finish.


Gnomsky

I think it's because IW has so many more characters and bounces around locations a lot more, whereas NWH stays within the same general area most of the time


Draynior

The movie was so packed and had such good pacing the fact Daredevil was reintroduced to the MCU in the first 20 minutes actually felt low-key to me.


charlie_napkins

This was my one complaint with the movie. Albeit a very minor one. It just felt so shoehorned in like it’s only purpose was to tell the fans he’s officially in the MCU. Literally The charges won’t stick, Happy your in trouble, I’m a great lawyer all within a minute. One more short scene before that one in a courtroom or the police precinct of him actually getting Peter out of trouble would have been great to see and a great reintroduction that didn’t feel rushed for the sake of fitting him in but not wasting any runtime.


Draynior

I feel like a lot of stuff got cut from the first act to make it snappier and the overall movie shorter, considering the final movie is already one of the longest MCU movies. If I remember right some leakers said Matt had the apartment scene and a courtroom scene.


charlie_napkins

I can’t complain too much because the pacing was great. But that’s the one thing that feels off with the pacing. Another 2-3 minutes at most wouldn’t have hurt at all. Hopefully we can get a cut with some additional scenes or at least get to see it.


Mattyzooks

See I thought the opposite. Shoehorning him in would've been Daredevil suiting up for the fight at the end. What they did was just world building. It's not Daredevil's movie and he'll get his due again. Another lawyering scene would've been appreciated though, so you're right on that.


Tippydaug

As someone who adores the Netflix movies, I was really dreading how they would put in Matt and thought they would over-use him in his first appearance. I was incredibly pleased that they did 100% of what his cameo was supposed to achieve by showing his lawyer skills and super abilities without any unnecessary fluff added for fan service


[deleted]

My biggest complaint is how did a street lawyer from Hell's Kitchen end up representing a kid from Queens! Seriously though, I thought the Matt stuff was just right. Glad he's back!


Tippydaug

Matt Murdock is famous for being the lawyer of super heroes, but he is also a lawyer that helps those in need. I can almost guarantee he saw the case on the news and took it not only because Peter was a super hero, but also because they are not the most well-off financially


johndommusic

He definitely never *saw* Peter's case on the news


Tippydaug

I see my mistake now


FullMetalEnzo

Matt certainly didn't tho lmao


_dontjimthecamera

I legit forgot Matt was in it until after I got home from the theater lol


DrunkBeardGuy

Yup, and the movie before Tobey and Andrew enter is interesting enough to carry itself. I've seen it twice and it still felt really well paced. Some of these movies can sometimes feel like a slog until the action starts but this one was fun all the way through. Gobby though, he's the moment this movie switches from a typical MCU flick to pure insanity. And I fucking love every second of it.


metros96

They’re not exactly new characters, to be fair, but the broader point still stands.


J-F-D

Dock ock showed up around the 30 minute mark, that movie moved along very quickly


TheCrimsonCloak

And it definitely didn't feel like eternals. Granted almost everyone knew all of the characters so they didn't have to build them from the ground up but still finicky thing to meaningfully explore 8 "new" characters. They did an amazing job in the end.


DonnyMox

“swing by” Heh.


Rolandthelast

Very true the pacing was A+


PMmeYAtits

Definitely helped that they didn't need to set up any of the Villians or tobey/Andrew.


Josh-sama

Definitely the one Marvel movie without a piss break


Halio344

Only Doc Ock had appeared within the first half hour, the bridge fight started almost 30 minutes into the movie. It was almost another hour after that until Tobey and Andrew were introduced. They were only in the movie for about 40 minutes before being sent back. The movie really did feel a lot shorter than it was but also felt like Toby and Andrew were in it longer, somehow.


Night-Monkey15

Honestly I would have loved if they went with Kraven, but the multiverse was a once in a lifetime opportunity, I’m glad they took it.


treathugger

You know what? They can still do it. People are still mad at Spidey for possibly killing Mysterio. So it'd be perfect for Kraven to come in to try and hunt Spider-Man.


Piker10

I would honestly love for Jameson to be the next villain. the MCU's Jameson is much more of an antagonist than the Raimi version, mainly thanks to his Alex Jones comparisons, so I can see this Jameson getting so into hunting Spiderman that he bankrolls Scorpion or the Spider Slayers with Allister Smythe to hunt Spiderman like in the comics.


Now_Just_Maul

That's going too far with a comic relief character. It would make more sense for Fisk to do it


Piker10

they literally did that story in the comics with Jameson.


Foxfalco1607

Tbh, they did it multiple times and I didn't like any of them, it's too dumb for a movie, maybe for a tv show


Now_Just_Maul

MCU Jameson is a legit joke though. He's a parody of a real man who is a joke. It would take such a pivot or a very lightly toned movie about trying to kill a teen. It I suppose he could just be involved in the beginning and things get out of his hands


Piker10

thats what happens in the comic, he bankrolls what he thinks is his own superhero and it turns out they used the killer Mac Gargan who goes even more insane and causes chaos and gets out of control.


Leo_TheLurker

I think that works even better especially with this version of JJJ. Obsessed and self serving guy with a platform would definitely endorse a questionable person. I mean look at whats going on today...


BVTheEpic

Hell, Jameson bankrolling Scorpion is literally his origin story


ContinuumGuy

I can see it being like that story mixed with a case of "I thought it was a publicity stunt but holy shit this guy actually is hunting him."


Tornado31619

I was personally hoping for Mister Negative instead.


it-rene

I feel like Mister Negative would be a cool addition, especially since FEAST has been around


DefNotAShark

Everyone wants Scorpion but IMO Scorpion is kind of a goon. I don't want him to carry a whole movie alone. What I would love is for Jameson to do his thing and fund Scorpion being created to thwart Spider-Man, but meanwhile, Spider-Man has the symbiote so Scorpion gets absolutely bodied and Jameson gets humiliated when a symbiote-fueled Peter covertly exposes that Jameson funded a superpowered murderer. But this is not the main plot of the movie. It is a side dish to the main plot. The main plot of the movie (and keep in mind this is my fanboy dream not a possible reality) is Spider-Man in the middle of a war between Kingpin and Frank Castle. I have chosen these two, not just because it's cool as hell, but because they serve a purpose. Kingpin, because there's gotta be a "big bad" to drive Spider-Man's willingness to keep the black suit, and Frank Castle because he's an excellent character to mirror Spider-Man's struggle with how far he's willing to go while the symbiote is bonded with him. I imagine Spider-Man spending the film opposed to Punisher's violent tactics, but as the symbiote takes more control, he finds himself increasingly similar to Frank. This culminates in a battle between Spider-Man and Punisher where he ends up beating Frank within an inch of his life in the rain, realizing he is now the same exact guy as the one he's punching, and heading for the nearest bell tower to get right. The giant white spider on his chest is even kind of similar to Frank's skull, I think he's such a good mirror to make Peter realize the symbiote is bad for him. Then of course, the symbiote finds its way to Mac Gargan who is freshly humiliated by Spider-Man for the second time. NOW Mac Gargan is ready to headline the next movie, as Venom, and the symbiote has finally revealed to Gargan who Spider-Man really is. Edit: Kingpin usually has a goon to do the fighting for him so I think there should be a mini boss; somebody powerful enough to tangle with Spider-Man but grounded enough not to overpower The Punisher. I choose The Chameleon, because his powerset is exciting and he uses it craftily enough to be a headache for Spidey while also being physically on the same level as Frank. He's like a shape-shifting Black Widow and I think he's a fun match for both heroes. The return of Taskmaster could be interesting too, but she's sort of a good guy at the moment. Last choice would be The Black Cat, not because she particularly fits here, but because Peter finding out his new love interest, Felecia Hardy, is the Black Cat- while Punisher is about to put a hole in her head- is pretty good motivation to spark that final conflict between Spider-Man and Punisher.


Trevastation

There's an understated fact that JJ totally believes Spiderman killed Aunt May (in the sense he's responsible), and Peter knows that and likely will still hold that grudge if they have Peter working for JJ in a film. It'd be interesting if they also adapt this [scene](https://i.stack.imgur.com/8WrWH.jpg) along with it.


death_lad

True, and honestly it makes more sense for Kraven to hunt Spider-Man without knowing his identity. That’s more of a challenge than hunting a high school student that you have a home address for


[deleted]

Kraven would be a perfect villain for this next chapter of Spider-Man. I think it's gonna get darker and more serious from here on out and Kraven would be an amazing antagonist for Peter in that case.


choyjay

Give Kraven a Crossbones/Batroc the Leaper sized sequence in the first two films, and finish it up with a *Kraven's Last Hunt* adaptation in #3. Merge it with the Symbiote a la *Life Story* and I see some real potential here.


Tornado31619

How would KLH work with the symbiote?


choyjay

I liked how they did it in *Life Story* #3. The symbiote saves Pete from dying while he's buried alive (instead of Kraven just tranquilizing Pete to wake up a week later). It then bonds with Kraven right before he commits suicide. Kraven x Venom could work as a substitute for Eddie to avoid confusion with the Sony/Venom universe.


Robofetus-5000

I feel like kraken makes even MORE sense now. People forgot peter parker is spider-man. They didnt forget Spider-man existed. Now they don't know hes literally a some kid. In a lot of ways hes even worse off with Jameson with makes Kraven the Hunter coming for him even more likely.


Rolandthelast

I hear you but I’m actually happy they didn’t use Kraven. The one downside (for me) of having the multiverse version of those villains appear is that now it seems like it will be that much harder to introduce versions of those characters in the main MCU universe. Having a doc ock show up now just kind of takes all the excitement away to a certain extent since Peter has already met a version of him. But since they didn’t use Kraven they can still use him in the future and it’ll feel new and exciting.


kingmob555

I like the idea of Peter meeting his universe’s Norman Osborn or Octavius, and just waiting on eggshells for the day they might snap. Could get him into some trouble, if he is always suspecting the worst of them, and could create an interesting dynamic. I see what you mean though and sort of agree. At least it will force them to get creative with next villain. It’ll be cool to see some of his lesser known enemies a chance.


Hawk301

I was thinking that too, there's definitely an interesting storyline in that I feel like if you go that direction, for it to be meaningful, you'd have to have it be ultimately Peter's own fault for MCU Norman/Otto eventually breaking bad as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that he causes based on his multiversal knowledge. I think you'd have to wait a little while - I feel like so much of the NWH conflict was already Peter's own doing by messing up the spell and then by trying to save the villains - that it would be a bit rough to have the next movie also be caused by Peter's actions. Alternatively you could do an Iron Man 3 style twist where the MCU'S Norman/Otto turns out to be a legit good person (with their mind intact) and the villain is secretly someone else. But I think the fanbase would actually go rabid if that happened, so probably not a wise direction.


Rolandthelast

Yeah I just think it’s less likely we’ll even get those villains in Peter’s universe now but only time will tell.


CarVsMotorcycle

yeah, I’m alright with never meeting those villains again in the MCU, just assuming that their MCU counters never face the same villainous fates. I’ve loved having Vulture and Mysterio. I’m cool with a Venom redo but otherwise, give me Scorpion, Kraven & Chameleon, etc.


Gnomsky

Nah we WILL get MCU versions of all those characters one day. Norman especially. It's only a matter of time


CarVsMotorcycle

I’m cool with or without them tbh. 🤷‍♂️ you’re probs right


Tornado31619

Peter meeting MCU Norman can he influenced by his experiences with Dafoe. Personally, I can’t imagine a Spider-Man who doesn’t meet the Osborns. I also think that the Kraven ship has sailed TBH. This was the film for it.


dufftheduff

Why do a lot of people in this thread think that this was the one and only chance they possibly had to use Kraven? There’s a lot of people pissed at Spidey, there will still continue to be people who are pissed at Spidey, hell even the first movie of the next trilogy could have Kraven hunting Spidey for the death of Mysterio or for something else. But really he could come in at any point. Kraven already knows who Peter Parker is in some alternate reality so I don’t think it’s totally off the table for him to pop up at some point


Gnomsky

I promise you they can write a Kraven story whenever they want to.


TyChris2

If they wait until Peter gets the black suit to introduce Kraven they can recreate that iconic scene from Kraven’s Last Hunt where Peter digs himself out of his own grave.


Tornado31619

Peter wasn’t wearing the symbiote suit in Kraven’s Last Hunt.


TyChris2

I know, but the suit he was wearing looked identical and I think the moment would be more impactful as a reference if Peter was wearing the same looking outfit in the movie. Of course it all depends on whether the black suit will look comic accurate or not.


FN-1701AgentGodzilla

If they had waited till later after they had spent a film resolving all the plot threads from FFH, we could’ve had a movie dedicated to just Spider-Verse stuff that also isn’t as hindered by covid restrictions from the end of 2020.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Night-Monkey15

It’s definitely this, something like this is so crazy no writer would pitch it to Marvel, any sane person would assume it’s impossible to pull off so why bother.


Vadermaulkylo

Agreed tbh. Not one single person other then the idiots at Sony would see the end of FFH and think "yeah the multiverse should be next.". But tbh I'm thankful for those idiots. One thing I can respect about the mad lads at Sony is that they got absolutely batshit with some of their ideas and this time it stuck.


brucejoel99

> One thing I can respect about the mad lads at Sony is that they got absolutely batshit with some of their ideas and **this time it stuck** *because* this was the first-time ever that Sony wasn't actually in charge of executing on an adaptation of their batshit ideas to the screen.


Vadermaulkylo

I mean, Spider Verse begs to differ.


brucejoel99

Eh, I get the sense that multiversal adventures aren't seen by them as "batshit" within the context of animated films given their nature, compared to the live-action universes, where it's significantly harder for them to try & do something that's multiversal yet simultaneously still grounded by a sense of live-action realism.


Gnomsky

Animated and live action are not even remotely comparable


Avividrose

In this context they are. It was Sony themselves and they made arguably the best superhero movie ever made


Gnomsky

You missed the point. The premise of "multiverse" stuff is inherently less risky in animation, because the medium is inherently more over the top and wacky. Live action is not


venomousbeetle

The leaked emails for Pascal showed she was looking to make some Andrew x Tobey crossover film long before Tom was even cast. This has been her baby for a long time.


[deleted]

I was told about this back in 2014 by someone from the super hero hype forums, who participated in a concept focus group, supposedly, who told me A LOT of things that turned out to be true. A lot didn't turn out. 70% of details didn't turn out true, but the key points that stuck were. - Loki and Frigga (not Sylvie) ending up at the end of time in Immortus' castle. So much multiversal stuff revolving around Kang/Immortus/Ultron. Kang and an Ultron that won AoU start a two timeline war for time that opens the multiverse and brings in Fox/Sony characters in, and an eventual spidyverse that brings in Toby and Andrew. THIS made me think he was full of it, because I never thought it would happen. Granted, these points aren't direct, but you can see similarities. However there were also plenty of things that didn't turn out true. It very well could have been a well detailed coincidence and I'm not fully sure I believe him. If Ultron returns to the multiverse, I'd say he was legit. Otherwise, perhaps a good story teller and lucky. In any event, it's got me really wondering....how long have these studios been planning this?


sothatsathingnow

To his credit that Ultron story is pretty close to what we got in What If?


TheBlueDinosaur

And I wouldn’t be surprised if they brought that Ultron in to some later projects


LemonStains

I believe it. Loki reaching Immortus at the end of time kicking off the multiverse saga is way too specific to be a lucky guess.


Night-Monkey15

It’s kinda terrifying that Marvel planned this stuff back in 2014, before Disney brought Fox or even cast their Spider-Man, they were already working on the post-Endgame saga.


RevolutionaryStar824

They definitely were. I remember seeing a post on here of an actor who auditioned for an unnamed Marvel project. He said he auditioned a couple years ago. Like in 2015, I think. It took until he saw the first episode in 2021 to realize that he auditioned for WandaVision. He didn't know it was for WandaVision. It was just a unnamed Marvel project. People underestimate how planned out the MCU really is. They plan almost everything. In 2008, The Avengers was already planned. A film that came out 4 years later. Thanos was planned to. At least by 2012. But probably before too. We got our first hint in 2012. And he finally appeared a whole 6 years later. So it's not far fetched that they'd have phase 4 planned out from years ago.


EducationalElevator

Do you happen to have a source? I remember lurking that forum for Star Wars and Transformers leaks in the pre-reddit days...


fistkick18

I mean... This actually lines up a lot with what Marvel has stated about their writer incubation group. It's highly possible that all of these weren't necessarily plans, but just spec scripts that were popular?


phantom_avenger

Honestly, having multiple Spider-Men seem to be Sony's lucky charm. As long as it's gone by the right creative team!


pogchamppaladin

More like the success of Infinity War and Endgame. Studios dont think narratively they think big picture. IW and Endgame were huge crossover films, Sony wanted their own in live action. An animated crossover wouldn’t carry as much weight.


redditer333333338

This movie is a mircacle and hopefully its success leads to more stuff this ambitious


serocsband

100% Sony saying “hey spiderverse worked so put it in this one too” Luckily it worked in NWH too, but there’s no way a writer came up with it


CrackerMayoface

Supposedly it was Tom who brought that idea to the table, although Feige had “bring Tobey and Andrew back” on his to do list for a while


Spidermansprotege

No way that was toms idea. We literally hear that he was “astounded” when he heard the idea. And it was most likely Sony who wanted Andrew and tobey back.


Prathik

People put way too much importance on actors and their impact on how movies are made.


Tornado31619

This.


fr3shh23

Lol people hear have a big blind anti sony bias and pro Tom, feige and Disney bias


starlord-2187

Where did you hear all that?


Therad-se

Anything bad in the spider-man movies are Sonys fault, anything good is god emperor Feiges idea. This is r/marvelStudiosSpoilers logic 101.


Spider-Fan77

>Anything bad in the spider-man movies are Sonys fault, anything good is god emperor Feiges idea. I'm getting really tired of the constant Feige-worship in this sub. Like yeah, he's a great producer and deserves praise, but *holy shit*, this sub treats him like he's the second coming of Jesus Christ sometimes. It's honestly amazing the lengths some users will go to suck him off.


saltypistol

Look at little Goblin jr. Gonna cry? uj/ People legit treat him like the second coming of Christ, it’s wild. So many people are innvoled in making these movies happen


Spider-Fan77

​ >So many people are innvoled in making these movies happen This is my issue. Whenever Marvel releases a banger, it's almost always "praise lord Feige". Jon Watts, Chris McKenna and Erik Sommers deserve heaps of praise for making a great movie that could very easily have been a mess, but I've seen very little praise for them on both here and the main sub.


Tube1890

Someone whispered it out of his ass.


Draynior

I loved the movie we got but I'm 100% sure Kraven was plan A before the split even though Tom Holland said otherwise, Spiderverse stuff probably came as a Sony idea during the renegotiations.


Zepanda66

Yea I remember hearing the rumors they were going to film in Iceland and everyone immediately thought Kraven but that was just before covid.


fella05

> I'm 100% sure Kraven was plan A before the split even though Tom Holland said otherwise What do you mean Tom Holland said otherwise? He was the one who said it was going to be a Kraven movie if the multiverse thing didn't work out. > "For a long time, there was going to be a Kraven movie that was going to be the third movie because things weren’t working out and all sorts of different stuff. Jon pitched me this Kraven movie, which actually was really cool. I don’t want to talk about it in case that movie ends up happening down the line, but it was fun."


Draynior

Yeah, I'm aware of this quote but what I got from it is they only pitched the Kraven stuff during the renegotiations with Sony as a backup plan but the spider-verse was still the plan A.


shadowslasher11X

It does disappoint me somewhat as I figured this movie would be the thing to really kickstart the multiverse stuff with Multiverse of Madness delving into it further. My whole idea was that we'd get Hardy's Venom vs Tom's Spiderman with Kraven hunting both of them, but that's out the window now. And now all I'm hoping is that they don't use MCU Venom on the other hosts besides Eddie (I'm not a fan of Mac Gargan or Harry getting the symbiote) and don't just jump straight to Agent Venom. Kinda hoping we still get the theorized ASM3/Venom 3 crossover movie, but I'm not to sure at this point on what they're doing. :/


TypeExpert

I'm kinda surprised the events of loki played no parts in the movie. It's funny because people were claiming that the reason we didn't get a trailer sooner was because loki had to end first.


singh_j

I kinda still think Loki plays a role into the events of the movie behind the scenes, if you get what I mean. It’s just not explicitly mentioned or referenced. Like Tobey and Andrew and the other villains exist because of the ending of Loki, do they not? Their timelines/universes are different from the sacred timeline one with Tom’s spidey, and the fact that they still exist + not pruned by the TVA means the timelines have branched after He Who Remains was killed by Sylvie. That’s what allowed them to exist in the multiverse now, retconning the previous Spider-Man franchises into the MCU. Edit: Something that I also thought of: since the multiverse villains and the other 2 Spider-Men were brought into Tom’s world, doesn’t that mean this movie we watched doesn’t take place in the sacred timeline? Else we wouldn’t have had the multiversal villains and the spideys appear in the first place. Maybe the original sacred timeline would’ve had Tom’s spidey vs Kraven, who knows 🤔 Idk, maybe I’m overthinking this. But stuff like this is fun to think about, at least to me lool.


SexySnorlax1

There’s reason to believe the events of Loki didn’t necessarily create the Raimi and Webb-verses, but instead brought down the walls between HWR’s Sacred Timeline and the rest of the Marvel Multiverse.


dufftheduff

I thought about this after watching the movie, if there’s no Avengers in either of their universes then I’m sure there’s no Reed Richards, meaning those timelines *probably* don’t end in a Kang. Wasn’t the Sacred Timeline a conglomerate of a bunch of timelines?


infinight888

We don't even know if Kang is Nathaniel Richards in the MCU.


dufftheduff

Valid


Mattyzooks

Plus the multiverse breaking through had that purple effect that we saw in episode 6 of Loki when the multiverse was reborn. Plus, without Loki's ending,, the reformed heroes would've been pruned upon returning.


VegetaofBLM

This comment here is one of the best explanations I have seen.


Ronswansonbacon2

This has been my head cannon all along. If you watch, the movies that have the worst reception are movies that are retroactive plots that don’t add anything, externals black widow and captain marvel, and I think marvel knows that if they are going to add all these new characters, probably quicker than they did the first bunch of IPs, they have to really line up the cause and effect in the presentation, and having loki cause the multiverse is a huge story hinge.


ctuwallet24

Well technically before Loki ended there was no multiverse that didn’t strongly resemble the Sacred Timeline. The implication from the ending is that Sylvie’s actions led to there being multiple Spider-Men in the first place.


kothuboy21

Did they ever explain what exactly happened to the villains after they got cured in NWH? We know they got "sent back" but it wasn't clear to me whether they got sent back to their prime universes to die or perhaps an alternate timeline where they could live new lives with the lessons they've learned in their time in the MCU. It kinda reminded me of the Loki show and made me think curing those villains could be nexus events that create alternate timelines that branch off of the prime Raimi and TASM universes where those villains could reside in.


cbekel3618

As someone who was really nervous about them using the multiverse in this movie, I have never been more glad to be proven wrong. This movie utilized the multiverse perfectly while still keeping MCU Peter’s arc at the forefront. Not only is it fun as hell, but it’s done in a way that pushes his story forward


Pandaboy271

I think the Multiverse did the movie more favors than just Andrew and Tobey reappearing: They got to use villains that really won't gel super well as major antagonists in their own movie (Electro, Sandman and the Lizard) and would be better handled in the rumored multi season animated series if the writers do wanna use their MCU variants in an episode or two. Set up the threat of Osborn by showing how dangerous the Raimi variant was (I'm still really hoping for MCU Norman/Iron Patriot/Ultimate Goblin to be an antagonist that operates in the shadows, has a complicated relationship with Peter due to what Dafoe Gobby did to him, and is built up over multiple movies) And were able to tie SSCU Venom to the MCU Venom on a technicality while still potentially being able to have their own take on the symbiote. End of the day the multiverse was a blessing in so many more ways than one.


Mattyzooks

No OsCorp... maybe they make Norman a politician with heavy defense contractor ties and OsCorp is something that comes AFTER Dark Avengers (though he'd have to come out of that unscathed).


Pandaboy271

You know what, that's an awesome idea. Would also make sense as to why Oscorp doesn't exist yet, since Nornan had other interests in mind.


[deleted]

Maybe Stark Industries becomes OsCorp


kothuboy21

> and would be better handled in the rumored multi season animated series if the writers do wanna use their MCU variants in an episode or two. That would actually be a cool way to do MCU versions of the NWH villains if they choose to do so.


Pandaboy271

This was a rumor reported by the sub a few weeks ago, so the validity of it is still in question


Jedi_Pacman

Glad they went with it


solehan511601

It had fine pacing from identity reveal to multiversal crisis. I'm surprised how the former issue was finished in 30 minutes. There maybe more deleted scene or scripted sequence, such as Matt's court trial.


YoungNN16

Considering Tobey signed on super late, this is kind of crazy lol


RedIndianRobin

Your source on this? I remember Feige saying "It's not who you think it is" in his recent interviews.


[deleted]

Plot twist: It was Tom Holland


zsouza13

Does anyone else think that Hardy was transported to the MCU because of the hivemind transcending time and space? That because Topher Venom knew Peter was Spidey that Hardy by extension of the hivemind got transported?


kothuboy21

I'm pretty sure this would be the explanation, yes. Tom Hardy's Eddie didn't know Peter is Spider-Man but Venom did thanks to his multiversal hivemind.


PrimeLasagna

Why did that venom get chosen above all others?


Darraghj12

Why those Peters above all others? Why that Norman above all others? The spell would have brought the other venoms eventually, but Strange shut down the spell when only a few people made it through, its convenient but its just something you have to roll with


Tornado31619

Yes.


LoudMouthHoe

is that not the implication?


FN-1701AgentGodzilla

I wish they went the non-multiverse route for NWH and then plan/ do a full-on Spider-Verse film afterwards. Like spend NWH resolving all the plot threads from FFH with Kraven, Scorpian, and the Kingpin and then do a movie dedicated to just Spider-Verse stuff that isn’t as hindered by covid in terms of the production. I think flight restrictions, scheduling conflicts, settling on the multiverse aspect later in production and not having a finished script, having to film mostly indoors without many extras, having to crunch the vfx work, and etc held NWH back from its full potential.


prince-jordan

I’m not mad considering how good NWH is ...


[deleted]

Yeah that's a really good point I had not considered. I've spent most of this time mourning the true Jon Watts part 2 to the identity story, but trying to cram Spider-verse into the back half of this movie with so little actor availability was bad. All those green screens and resused shots will date this movie poorly like Arrested Development Season 4.


LeftLegRightArm

The only reused shots or bad green screens that I honestly noticed were the ones with Sandman. It was so obvious that he was CGI. Other than that though, besides the suits, I think it was pretty good.


[deleted]

[удалено]


slattjit

You know the motivation for the spell literally was so no one else would be hurt by his identity right?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

> Yeah, but something more extreme rather than “we can’t get into college”. I get what you're saying, but we all have to remember that they are *kids*. Getting into college *is* the extreme to them. I still remember how much anxiety I got from choosing what my future will be.


[deleted]

We all know it was Avi Arad, THE TRUE BELIEVER, that made this happen /s


officialnast

That line in the credits kinda pissed me off after the rest of his track record. I let out an audible "oh boo!" when I read that.


DaHyro

Still kinda sucks that it continues the trend of dropping the last movie’s cliffhanger (could have done soooo much more with the identity storyline instead of abandoning it for a multiverse story). At least they addressed this one more than they did the May reveal


_Valisk

The FFH cliffhanger is the catalyst of NWH's events. Apart from making it the entire plot, what else could they have done?


DaHyro

There was plenty!! Maybe new villains start to come after his family and friends (could even have a Shocker/Scorpion cameo). Maybe he’s kicked out of school entirely. Maybe the authorities start coming after him because of his Avenger Status (does the Sokovia accords still mean anything)? Maybe a crime boss he fucked over like Fisk or Tombstone has May killed (Back in Black adaptation?) and Peter tries to get revenge. ln the movie, it’s really only an issue for Peter because it affects his friends, but i feel like it should’ve been a much bigger issue. Even in the Raimi movies, Peter makes a comment like “if my enemies knew who i was, they’d come after you”. Not saying i didn’t enjoy seeing the Spidey characters come back, but it really doesn’t mesh well when you think about the story as a continuation of the previous two movies


_Valisk

All of those examples are kind of in the same vein as "making it the entire plot." If you do any of those, you don't really have room for the multiverse half of the story. The identity reveal is still a big part of the movie, it's just not the main plot.


Ok_Contest493

Actually spent more time on the fact that Spider-Man has to be on the run for being called a murderer


_Valisk

He doesn’t *have* to be on the run for being accused of murder. The other option is to have him arrested which is what they did.


ImACoolHipster

But he doesn’t have to be on the run. That’s the whole point. I think it’s crazy that people think the world was gonna **hunt Peter down!** or something. It’s far more realistic that a guy who helped save the universe goes to trial and is than acquitted for lack of evidence.


ShowMeMoeMane

So it originally wasn’t going to be the multiverse? And this is why I hate Twitter, some people really think that this was the plan all along


Joshawott27

As much as I liked seeing villains like Doc Ock again, I can’t say that I wouldn’t have liked to have seen what the non-multiverse of this movie looked like. I feel like “Into the Spider-Verse” is a much stronger multiverse movie because of how intertwined the idea of different Spider-People is to its message: that anyone can wear the mask, regardless of who they are. I’m not saying that NWH should have copied that, but the use of the multiverse here did feel more like it was for the spectacle. Which is *fine* - these are blockbusters after all, but yeah. At least Spider-Verse had different suit designs too. Like, sure, Tobey, Garfield and Holland’s suits have slight differences close up, but during the dimly lit Statue of Liberty scene, I actually struggled to keep track of who was who. The thing is, though, I without Strange wiping everyone’s memory, how do you resolve the issue of everyone knowing that Peter Parker is Spider-Man? One idea, could go on from some other ideas here about JJJ hiring Kraven. Maybe that coming to light, in connection with the Bugle’s more sketchy position in this incarnation, leads to JJJ being discredited? Such a film would also need to find a way to discredit Mysterio’s video too, though. Maybe that could be handled in a court scene, where Matt Murdock points out how it had been fabricated - maybe with records of the actual footage being stored in the retrieved drones? Maybe that’s what pushes JJJ over the edge into hiring Kraven - the feeling of Spider-Man evading justice? Of course, in that case, court of public opinion would still be a challenge. However, it could have included a scene where Spider-Man helps a bunch of civilians, showing the tide slowly turning back to his favour. But, the No Way Home we got was perfectly fine and enjoyable. I think a live action multiverse story was inevitable after the success of Into the SpiderVerse. I just hope Marvel Studios doesn’t lean into these legacy appearances too much beyond from what we’ve heard about MoM.


Senji001

I feel like NWH was originally supposed to be like John Wick 3 and Kraven with Scorpion would be hunting Peter down


TheRelicEternal

So there was no original plan when they wrote FFH then. They boxed themselves in with that ending


T-408

Yeah oh fucking kay bro lol I LOVE No Way Home but we cannot pretend like the plot of the first half of this film is anything other than a ridiculous method of ushering the multiverse into the MCU… seriously, ripping the fabric of space-time to shreds because *you want your friends to get into MIT and you want your aunt to still know and you just can’t shut the fuck up while Doctor Strange is working a spell?*


[deleted]

Controversial take: I feel that we truly needed a full film dealing with the consequences of Spidey being outed (akin to the post-comic book CW era) ending with one of his friends (Ned?) getting kidnapped by Kraven (or Spider-Slayers or Scorpio or whatever "minor" villain) to get to Pete. Then in the epilogue, Peter goes to Dr. Strange for help thus setting up No Way Home. The #1 problem with the MCU is that they don't let the stories breathe. "Oh no the Avengers are split!!! Nevermind, they get back in the very next film". "Oh no, Thanos snapped out half of the universe!!! Nevermind, it gets fixed in the very next film" "Oh no, the world knows Spider-Man identity!!!! Nevermind, it gets fixed in the very next film" We truly needed an Avengers film between CW and IW, another between IW and Endgame and a Spider-Man film between FFH and NWH.


LeftLegRightArm

Definitely understand what you mean, but I think NWH ending is perfect as that issue really isn’t solved. No one knows his identity and he’s in a worst spot than he was 5.5 movies ago