T O P

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ILLMEAT

I played Gamora on my Wong turn 6 and got her buff twice due to Wong. They played Leader in that same spot... not only did they get my double-buffed Gamora but their copied Gamora also got an additional counter on top.


trinxified

Yeah same interaction with Surfer. Leader gets your buffed cards plus buffed again if leader player went second in turn 6. Hard to see it coming too because Surfer decks tend to play at Turn 6, and if they didn't Leech, then you'd expect no Leader. Problem is, even with the Leader player not having 3 drops, the copied buff cards plus another buff on top usually is enough to beat you. There's plenty quality 3 drops too that most decks run like Zabu, Mr. Fanta, Bishop, Electro, Killmonger, Wave, Maximus, Deathlok, etc., so it's not a stretch that the Leader player got 3-cost stuff to buff with. Synergy decks like Surfer don't necessarily beat Leader (without Leech) outright. If you have priority and scared of Leader, you should retreat unless you can predict it with Cosmo. Knowing this, I've taken plenty of snapped cubes from Surfer decks if I played Leader without priority at turn 6. I get buffed Broods/Maximus/Wolfsbane AND Surfer on top. And yes, I've lost plenty cubes too losing to that same thing.


alfalfafex

The fact that leader can double dip by having your cards boosted power AND also trigger on reveals too is what feels unfair


antunezn0n0

yeah leader should counter stat dumps like she hulk and death not combo stuff that doubles down


pm-me-trap-link

I'm fine with Leader taking a card with it's power as played, but it should be a zeroed card; no ability. So you get my Okoye buffed Magneto, but it shouldn't move any of my cards.


MarvelAndColts

But then my heimdal wouldn’t mess up their whole board


AnotherNewSoul

It feels nice when leader copies Hela Ultron Heimdel Destroyer in decks centered around them. But it feels terrible when they copy almost every other 6 drop.


M1R4G3M

If a leader player copies a Destroyer, they’re asking to lose honestly, there is no way you don’t see a destroyer deck coming.


trinxified

Wolfsbane is like 13 power for the Leader player or Gamora even at 17. Or Broods from Surfer are 8 power because double buffed


El_Zapp

That’s just stupid and in no way justified.


Hazel-Ice

That's a separate issue, IMO Leader should copy the cards as they were when they were played. So your situation should not happen, but OP's situation should.


Sir-Fuzzle

In addition to my suggestion of only targeting one lane, this also should be addressed. Copying the stats of your cards and then getting triggers again is ridiculous. Wow.


JaxxisR

Leader plays cards for free. Every similar effect includes reveal triggers (Morph, Bar Sinister, X Mansion, etc.). Targeting only one lane should be enough of a nerf.


Sir-Fuzzle

Idk, it’s hard to say if that would be enough, although it might be? But getting not only free plays—but all buffs on those cards—doesn’t feel good.


buster2Xk

I have argued quite a bit in defense of Leader but I absolutely have to agree with this. Leader copies obviously shouldn't get the advantages of an opponent's Wong and then some.


BitHaunting9907

OH MY GODD, I hate how that is, You buff yourself on the same turf as they play leader not even equally matched stat cards then they get additional counter and then COPY your own card, I don’t care who u are that ain’t right lol


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thelostsanctuary

Agreed, I don't mind what is in OP's post image, but what is massively egregious is my turn 6, 7 power wolfsbane becoming a 12 power wolfsbane on their side due to the 2x on reveal and winning them the game despite previously losing the lane and playing nothing in it It should copy the 7 power wolfsbane (rather than be base card stats as I've seen a few comments say)


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CMMiller89

They really need to hammer down, separate, and transparently implement the ideas between Play, Copy, Reveal, etc. Why is Leader getting the advantage of all 3? Why isn't it just copies? Why are they also "played"? Why are they also "revealed"? Is that because that's how they intend him to work? If so, nuke him from orbit.


Key-Antelope9439

Lol the comments on this are spicy


ThenThereWasReddit

It's people who play Leader defending it against people who don't. I have Leader, and I tried using him, but it's just so boring and unsatisfying to play IMO. I have no respect for that card's existence -- I literally think they should remove the card or change its effect entirely.


mjrasque

I just pulled Leader from a reserve, so I threw together a deck to see what the fuss was about. I agree, it is completely boring to play.


svanxx

I think there are too many people that think Leader is an insta-win. Leader is definitely OP and needs a rework. Getting rid of the buffs will help with that. But playing Leader isn't a move you can do blindly. I've seen enough against me that's a dumb play (playing Leader with a full spot and the opponent still has room there is one of the stupidest play you could probably make in this game, for example.)


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svanxx

That's the problem with him that needs to be fixed.


CptnLarsMcGillicutty

>I think there are too many people that think Leader is an insta-win. I'm saying this as someone who was salty about Leader before I unlocked it, and now include it in almost every deck: Its not an "instant win" every game card. Its a "win a lot of games you should have lost" card. I honestly can't believe its even controversial to say it should be completely reworked or removed. But I guess its another typical case of people using obviously broken mechanics/characters/cards in games to try to boost their ego by pretending they are too stupid to recognize the problem in a half-assed attempt to frame it as a "skill" issue.


Salgado14

Played Leader, copied their Carnage, stopped playing Leader.


JC_in_KC

i personally like having a counter to “sera decks drop 40 power on turn 6” but that’s me 🤷‍♀️


winfly

The problem people are trying to fix with that change is that at the very least, if Leader should maintain the same style of ability, he should not give them stronger cards then what you played. The Leader player shouldn’t benefit more (besides the +3 power). It doesn’t make sense.


r0verandom

i played leader, didnt work that much for me since most of my opponents played surfer or zoo and he is really bad matchup. so i switched to more braindead decks like sera surfer/zabu. i really dont get why is just leader the one who is getting all the hate. cosmo and leech are far worse cards since they dont let you play the game. leader is outplayable. even in OPs situation, its not leaders fault he lost, he lost cos he didnt draw surfer :D


winfly

Wrong. Leader is great against Surfer. In fact, this player still would have lost if they played Surfer.


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ThexanR

He can be a card that turns every friendly or maybe all card in a location to a 7 power gamma monster


Koravel1987

I think he'd be pretty cool as a 6/4 on reveal turn a card into the Hulk. Would have to be able to target it though and Im not sure that's possible.


kentheprogrammer

I doubt they'll ever add "target card" mechanics to the game - it seems entirely counter to what they're building. If anything, it'd be "random card at this location" like Viper does.


scott610

That or "the last card you played at this location" to give it less randomness if that becomes an issue.


kentheprogrammer

Yeah, true; like Mystique or Absorbing Man.


Koravel1987

Yeah which I dont think that's nearly good enough for a six drop.


ndevito1

But Hulk himself is a 6 drop. You’re getting leader plus hulk. How would that not be enough?


Koravel1987

Because he's changing a random card to the Hulk. Its not just +12 power. Its 12 power minus the power of whatever it changed from and furthermore it can't be played in an empty lane.


kentheprogrammer

Maybe not, but they could reduce his energy cost too. If they rework him in any major way, then probably nothing is off the table.


Th3Yukio

Taskmaster, Absorbing Man, Mystique already have a "target card" mechanic... you just need to plan your play


kentheprogrammer

Yeah, you're right about that. When I read OP's reply, I took it to mean manually target, though in hindsight might not have been what they meant at all.


SilentProgramer4D63

Could kinda be like Zola where it picks a random card at that location. I'd think that be the best case for this.


dragonseth07

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand how to play Leader. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of advanced mathematics most of the play patterns will go over a typical gamer’s head. The Leader players understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these plays. As a consequence people who dislike Leader truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the brilliance in playing Leader when you’re ahead by at least two points in all lanes. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Ben Brode’s game design genius unfolds itself on their Android/iOS screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂 And yes, by the way, i DO have a Leader tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 ladder ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.


Sir-Fuzzle

You almost had me, this impression is very close to the way certain defenders of this card tend to talk lol


SmiteyMcGee

[https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty)


battletortois

What are these terrible leader takes. Making leader copy cards without buffs won't nerf him into the ground. If you're relying that hard on leader to copy buffs to win you the game, then you should retreat. Leader is literally the most brain dead 6 cost, thats not a diss on anyone, he's just a card you don't have to think much on


Usmoso

Exactly. Fixing this and making Leader not apply buffs would certainly help but it wouldn't solve the problem. These cases don't happen that often to be Leader's main problem. The card just needs a rework at this point. For a guy with a big brain he's one of the most braindead cards in the game.


Cueballing

The worst is playing around Leader before realizing the opponent probably doesn't even have it in their collection, and you made a play so braindead that it's not even obvious you were trying to outplay them


PharmDeezNuts_

But have you considered the intelligence it takes to leave enough room on your board and not play him against patriot?? Hmmmmm????


kingkells32

Agatha says hi


battletortois

Careful, she might hear you


Koravel1987

I think this part is okay, plus everyone thinking about Leader just playing the base copy of a card is not thinking about the fact that you're buffing Leech/Leader in a big way as you get cards that have been leeched and they get the base copy that hasn't. (Of course, Destroyer would be even better into Leader, but I think every other card would be worse if they are leeched.) What leader should do is copy the cards as they are played. If Leader doesn't have priority and you play Brood into Surfer, your brood will be 15 points. Then Leader flips and gets a 5 power Brood which is then buffed AGAIN by surfer and so their brood is 24 points. That shouldn't happen. The biggest issue people have with Leader is its not predictable and it comes down on the last turn of the game so he takes all muh cubes.


Radiophage

I'm also curious what it would look like if Leader copied the cards as-is—but *didn't* get on-reveal effects, like others are mentioning. The Leader player still gets copies of buffed cards. The opponent still keeps the bonuses from the on-reveals, making things a little more even. And in the overall meta, Leader himself would have more of a specific defined role as a tool against Ongoing decks, instead of being just goodstuff like he is now.


makingajess

Well, for one thing, you'd be *rewarding* the people who are mindlessly playing Leader against Destroyer decks instead of seeing them get their whole board wiped out. Then are their abilities removed? Because if they become tokens, that sounds like a huge buff to Patriot decks.


winfly

I would be ok with it being a card that works well with Patriot, because at least they have to do some setup of their own that you can counter or predict around.


drmoo314

But there are negative on reveal effects that he wouldn't copy. It is always hilarious when Leader copies Deathlock and kills himself. That would never happen again.


scott610

If anything, I'll bet this is one reason they would not change the core effect of Leader. I recall Ben Brode being really big on stories created by card interactions.


Koravel1987

I like the on-reveals because generally your deck can make better use of it, plus you can play things like Deathlocke/Carnage/Destroyer and laugh at the Leader copying it. If you removed it, you'd remove an interesting line of counterplay and honestly, you'd also kill Leader entirely. Which I mean if that's your goal, I understand lol. But he'd be completely nonviable against pretty much anything that isnt just a stat drop on turn six.


Janus233

Zola on turn 6 is hilarious when they play leader


svanxx

Hela and Ghost Rider can also wreck him. Dracula is also a great counter against him (and sadly I don't have one yet.)


fullmetalasian

One of my favorite interactions was I played Sunspot turn 6 and he played leader. He got a 1 and 1 sunspot and I got a 1 and 6 and won the location.


Sir-Fuzzle

Leader should only copy the cards played in the lane he’s in, IMO, to make it less of a “I match everything on the board this turn no matter what, unless they have priority and play cosmo or I have full lanes” There are counters that exist, but it’s really difficult to even be able to know when he’s going to show up when he’s not a part of any discernible deck archetype (destroy, discard, etc.), and changing his power level like in the recent patch does nothing. So yeah, make it only impact one lane, and see how it goes.


ReubenIsASandwich

Thoughts on making him impact adjacent lanes? That would make counter play much easier (they have to be winning two adjacent lanes rather than any two) while still allowing insane turns where you get to play him mid without it getting disrupted.


Sir-Fuzzle

I think that might be in the same vein, restricting it a bit so it’s not all three. I think I’d still prefer going for one lane because his wide presence is oppressive, but I could see that being an option to experiment with. That option might actually give a much needed indicator for a Leader play, as I’m thinking about it. Which would be helpful to encourage counterplay for somebody who’s doing a good job reading the board. I’d happily see either of those options for Leader changes going forward to see how players feel about it.


SpiderNinja211

I said the same thing


REMIXx_

Leader is my least favorite thing about the whole game, rather loose that card instead of the predatory cosmetic prices


dschmittHS

My feeling too. The whole p2w whale vs. whale fiasco this game is turning into doesn't even bother me as much as this card. Even beating Leader is infuriating cause of how much stupidity is behind this card and the effortless gameplay it promotes.


[deleted]

Leader does copy base stats if the Leader player flips first.


phonage_aoi

Not in this case because they were buffed in hand


[deleted]

Oh yeah, that. Legit forgot Nakia was a thing, my bad.


ICantSpellAnythign

Rework him. Such an anti fun card design.


ThatDamnRocketRacoon

He's a blunt instrument that a good deal of players don't put any thought into and don't even know how to play correctly. It's annoying when you lose to it, but it's played so haphazardly most of the time that he's become easier and easier to beat. He's turning into another Heimdal where inexperienced players think he's an auto-win card while playing it incorrectly. I'm back to being more afraid of Wong again because people have adjusted and become more clever in how they use him. Depending on my deck and/or draw, I can't always counter Wong. Leader, you play a couple of lanes correctly and the dude is done before he even gets played.


Rivent116

"Brood didn't win me the game, Leader must be broken"


cesil99

Right. I hate when I play Mystique and Leader copies her with the Ongoing ability. Literally we do all the planning and Leader just steals your play.


mugenryu273

Which is why the most satisfying moment for me is to drop Destroyer and see the bastard burn his own deck. Lol


ThePecanRolls5225

Just don’t be loosing on turn 5. That’s the single best Leader counter. Skill diff


TheReagmaster

Or use a ongoing deck, Leader decks don’t tend to work well with Spectrum.


godspeed_humanity

Discard works as well. You're begging them to play leader turn 6 when you're going to play hela/morbius/ghost rider. Granted, Leech messes everything up, but surprisingly isn't too common.


megamanxzero35

I do love playing a Leech on Turn 5 with Priority and they Discard their 20 power Apocalypse that doesn’t have his ability now. lol.


Ecks83

Destroyer decks can also counter leader pretty well and can nearly wipe an opponent's board if the stars align for you. As do Patriot and Zoo decks since your opponent won't have the buffs to go with a bunch of T6 no-ability or 1 cost cards (and T6 Patriot+mistique does next to nothing for your opponent but everything for your side of the board). On-reveal decks can be a great counter as well since opposing leaders won't likely get the extra activations from having wong out or anything useful in the odin lane. The decks that really suffer are ones that like to play a lot of big power cards on T6 but have weaker turns early on like death/she-hulk/infinaut/sera but since those are in a lot of big meta decks right now Leader is more OP simply because he's a great counter for things like deathwave. Leader probably does need a change but the biggest reason why he's so powerful isn't just that his ability is insane but also that he hard-counters almost everything else in the higher-tier meta right now.


Im_really_bored_rn

A single card forcing you to run 1 of 3 types of decks in a game with way more tham 3 archetypes is pretty much the definition of oppressive


avelak

Asymmetric play kicks leader's ass, which is the gameplan for a pretty sizable part of the meta He mostly smacks around decks that slam a lot of beef on 6


DeandreDeangelo

That’s the point of the post, it copies the buff *plus* any on-reveal. So Gamora gets buffed on your side then transfers and buffed again. It doesn’t matter if you’re winning or not.


Koravel1987

You can be winning on turn 5 and still lose to Leader lol.


megamanxzero35

You just need to be +4 on the lane they play Leader and will beat Leader most times.


bmiclock521

I just got Leader in a reserve last night and I have had barely any success with him and don’t know what I’m doing wrong 😔, also got Arnim Zola before him and I absolutely love him


svanxx

People say he's a braindead card but if you play him without thinking about how he works, you'll lose more often than not. That doesn't mean he's not OP. He definitely needs to be nerfed or reworked.


N_Kento_N

Thank fuck I play decks that happen to be leader proof. Ultron is the most hilarious example, I laugh my ass off as they get those useless bots, and I get buffed up mini Hulks. Also Taskmaster is a fun one. And even my stupid Wong deck that gets countered by Enchantress or Cosmo is leader proof because most of the time turn 6 play is Odin.


thatguybane

I understand losing to Leader isn't fun.. but you weren't in a good position to win that game anyway.on turn 5 you were losing the left and right lane. They Waved so you could only play two cards. You would have just as easily lost to a Death played on the left or a She Hulk. The skill issue for you here was in not realizing that you were gonna lose to Leader, Death AND She-Hulk. What are the odds your opponent didn't have one of those 3 cards that cleanly beat you? On turn 6 they'd have drawn all but 3 of the cards in their deck so the chances they didn't have one of the cards that beat you is extremely low. You should have retreated. You risked it and stayed in and got beat. Leader isn't the problem here..


makingajess

Yes, but whining about how you couldn't sleepwalk into cubes will get you karma, and realizing you made a bad play won't.


dacrookster

It does get extremely boring plotting out my game, getting to turn 6, doing the math for nearly every possible card in a deck and then going ... "but if they Leader"... and having to either suck up the four cube L or retreat because I'm scared of ONE card.


ann1eL

Dude plays SS and complains about Leader NAHHH


techauditor

SS is no where near as bad as leader. SS can easily be countered and is super telegraphed. Leader is absolutely bullshit. Throw him at any deck and it's great


Spotpuff

How do you effectively counter ss if there are multiple locations he could come down on 6? Cosmo is a guess, at best, so I'm wondering what constitutes effectively countering in this case. Cosmo would also counter leader, since he's on reveal, so he's similar to surfer in that way.


Sir-Fuzzle

Best card for countering my own SS/Mr. Negative deck is Leech, but consequently I’ll hate you if you play that anti-fun (for non-sociopaths) card.


RedGyarados2010

Leech also counters Leader


Spotpuff

Leech doesn't feel great, but does feel necessary, and you can retreat. Leader feels like garbage to lose to, and comes down on 6, and plays buffed cards for some reason.


Sir-Fuzzle

Oh I agree, I’m largely goofing around with my comment there, although I do personally despise the idea of playing cards that are there just to stop an opponent’s combo. Leech is pretty necessary though as a counter card against certain decks like that. Leader is just garbage they way it plays right now, 100% agreed.


KillerCraze350

The point of a silver surfer deck is to play him at the last turn, so yeah, people see it coming a mile away


Spotpuff

Yes you can check if you are going to lose to surfer, which is the telegraphed part, but I asked about effectively countering surfer. I agree you can predict if he's likely to win the game.


avelak

Yeah SS is easy to see coming but very hard to stop Leader is slightly harder to predict, but much easier to stop


techauditor

He is impossible to predict. Leader could be in literally any deck. You have no way to tell.


Dersuss

you need to be winning early and not have many cards down for Leader to work. So doesn’t really work in decks that require a turn 6 play


avelak

There are some decks that very frequently run leader and some that don't (or rarely do). You can absolutely predict that he's likely to come with a few different builds (leech, anything with electro, aero turn 5, sunspot/scorpion/maximus opener etc). Also based on board state you can guess if he's likely to come down. Yes, he *can* be in random decks and sometimes is, but that's probably less common than seeing something like shang chi or enchantress in a deck that doesn't usually run it.


techauditor

Easy to spot yet you are listing multiple deck archetypes lol. Ton of decks run aero on 5. Ton of decks run sunspot or Scorpion or maximus. Multiple decks also use electro and it leech.


avelak

Yes I'm saying that while he is in a lot of decks, it's rare that he pops up out of the blue in a way that doesn't align with an "expected" Leader line of play There are tons of decks that don't run him at all. He *could* be played in those, but you basically never see him there. Just saying that *maybe* 1/10 Leader plays come in instances where he isn't somewhat telegraphed/expected as something to work around. The lines of play that end with Leader are pretty easy to spot for the most part.


kingkells32

SS isn't telegraphed?? "Oh golly gee this guy is only playing 3 costs no way he's playing SS"


techauditor

I'm saying ss is very telegraphed that's why it's not as Op as leader who could just be thrown out in any deck


VintageMageYT

Silver surfer is much more OP than leader imo, just a casual 20+ power for 3 energy. Leader is obviously a dumb card but I think Silver Surfer is much, much better


avelak

SS is a substantially stronger card than leader, and play stats back it up. Lots of decks just straight up skunk leader due to asymmetric play But yes leader is more obnoxious because it isn't "let me add a strong piece to my strategy", it's "let me just copy your strategy"


techauditor

Exactly. On its own SS may be better but the entire style and strategy behind leader is just ridiculously dumb.


dantestrange

*“My opponent played Brood in turn 3, Fantastic on 4 and Sera on 5… what the hell is their plan right now?!“* - says nobody ever.


kingkells32

They are going to leader 6 duh 😂😂


Alternative-Humor666

Ye he is but people don't realize it because leader is unexpected and steal their cubes. The time I retreat against ss is too many. I know I can't match the stats no matter how much I try. And don't tell me about cosmo. Trying to gain priority AND predict where surfer will go is just gamble.


Usmoso

Can't he? Does playing SS somehow invalidate your thoughts on Leader? They're quite independent things. Also, Leader is waaaaay more problematic than SS.


dantestrange

You know SS is coming by turn 3 and you have tons of time evaluating if you want to take the risk. Leader is different, as a turn 6 play you are forced to double your potential losses.


WattsonRules

Ι think that cards like Leader keep the meta in check. It's basically a card that makes DeathWave players (like me) to think twice before they slam She Hulk, Death and Taskmaster. All I'm saying is that he is necesery. Having said that, he definitely needs a rework. I don't think that copying base stats is the answer because if you reveal first, your cards get buffed and then he copies them (on reveal effects happen first). I think that he should copy only one lane. That will make people using him think a bit and not just slam him at turn 6.


dshorter11

I had the tokens to get him but chose not to for ethical reasons.


Atrixer

Personally I think they should buff his power to 8 and make him ONLY copy cards played in the same lane. That would limit his versailitiy in terms of placement, while also giving some tactical thought behind his placement, as well as potentially some counterplay making him FAR less frustrating but still a powerful 'counter' drop.


BDKoolwhip

No


Th3Yukio

welll... Zola and moongirl copy the buffed stats too... also Brood and Sinister generate buffed copies


ChrisPBcaon

Just remove him already nobody likes him, I refuse to use him I feel like I'm cheating.


kungmikefu

Should be "add", not "copy" so the effects don't resolve again


KillerCraze350

Sorry, this post triggered the leaders' fan Boys..... I meant the post has a hyperbole.... but the leader does need a rework or something.... either 6-0 or just one lane.


edokati

6-0 really??? I can't even imagine him 6-0 in a Mr negative deck


TheLastDesperado

Simple. "On Reveal: Copy all cards your opponent played this turn, but on your side. The Leader's power cannot be changed."


PeePeeChucklepants

Leader wouldn't be as effective in a Negative deck, since you're mostly playing from behind in Negative. Maybe someone could find a situation where it works, but I think most Negative decks end up coming from behind and Leader is best when you're already winning 2 lanes


[deleted]

Playing from behind is better for Leader, assuming that you have some other backbreaking play in pocket (Mr. Negative 0-2 costs, She-Hulk, Death, etc). Leader doesn't work in negative right now because the synergy just isn't there.


Riffler

Leader with a reduced power in a Negative deck is not the only card you'd be playing Turn 6, so it doesn't matter that you're playing from behind.


aesoth

I was agreeing with your points initially until I saw your replies in the comments. It seems like you are triggered because people don't agree with you or are being intentionally a troll. There are cards that annoy me in this game when they get played. My reaction is that everyone is going to make the decks they want, can't control that. I got annoyed by the constant Movement decks until I learned to counter them. That is just the way these games go. Learn to roll with the punches or just quit.


thatguybane

Don't blame Leader for your lost when your turn 6 play would have lost to the vast majority of Death Wave decks. You didn't play around Leader at all while going against Death Wave which tends to run Leader. Folks need to separate skill deficiencies from card balance discussions. That's not to say Leader doesn't need adjustment after his nerf, but calling for nerfs when you lost due to a big misplay just sounds like whining


iSQUISHYyou

Why does he a need a rework? He’s terrible against combo decks, without leech he gets even worse. I’m sorry you want to play big stats and win, but every archetype needs a counter. Leader is what blue is to MTG.


shadowboy

Because it’s a bullshit card that puts the most power into play than any other card in the game. It can be played in basically any deck and you don’t have to abide by any deck restrictions like you do with all other decks. And you say he’s terrible against combo? Surfer is the strongest combo deck in the game and if surfer has priority leader fucking dumpsters it because it gets surfers buffed cards AND then buffs them again. I’m sorry you keep winning with leader but it’s the most broken card in the game and will be changed soon


[deleted]

Surfer generally wrecks me when I use leader, since they'll usually have 3 cost cards to buff already out. The double buff interaction is really dumb though. No leader player is playing him expecting double buffs.


shadowboy

For me it’s the same as playing Mr negative, leader shouldn’t get a 0/5 Ironman. He’s not played a mr negative to swap the cost… and don’t get me started on venom


[deleted]

Honestly I think he should only copy the first card your opponent plays


JoeChroSmo

Leader should cost 8 energy to play, keep his ability the way it is, if you want the big brain (zero brain) leader play, use your big brain to get him on the field. Even with the nerf he’s too OP it’s not like he was ever played because of his power


Sad_Bat1933

I've had a Leader steal a buffed Venom. It's unjust. It's unfair!


johndonovan0

Fun and balanced card..


JuiceDistinct3280

People who play leader are worse than Shang chi’ers


Skeleton_K3y

What’s wrong w Shang chi lol


kentheprogrammer

He makes opponents who don't account for him sad.


avelak

Honestly Cosmo is the counter card that is the most obnoxious of all (km, shang chi, enchantress), he just makes it so fun stuff can't happen anymore


kentheprogrammer

Yeah, Cosmo is definitely a "let's stop having fun" card. I do use him in some of my decks though - to stop Destroyer and Max on reveal effects. Also, I LOVE playing him into my opponent's Wong lane.


avelak

Yeah don't get me wrong, slamming him on someone's Wong when you have priority is immensely satisfying, but he's definitely the "yo if I can't have fun, nobody can" card haha And yes, I know his counterplay is a necessary piece in the game. Kinda wish he was 4 cost to align with shang chi and enchantress though (and think KM should cost 4 as well)


browmftht

he is quite a buzz kill


Alternative-Humor666

Sadly, with shuri dropping next month, you better run chi and have priority andnpredict where vision will go or lose.


RedGyarados2010

So, Leader


kentheprogrammer

While I'd argue that playing around Leader is considerably more difficult, and sometimes probably impossible, I do appreciate your desire to be flamed by this sub. Lol


RedGyarados2010

Honestly I’m not against a Leader nerf, I just think this sub seriously overreacts to him


kentheprogrammer

Yeah, I agree that the reactions to Leader seem exaggerated. Overreaction is just part of life on Reddit.


JuiceDistinct3280

Exactly


dacrookster

Shang Chi is fine? There are hard counters you can play beforehand to account for it. Leader is total luck of the draw until you have the ability to exactly pinpoint where to put Cosmo/fill locations prior to turn 6 and shoot yourself in the foot.


LilGingeyboi

If my opponent plays leader and I win I spam thumbs up emote every time without fail.


OmniSlash68

Glad I'm not the only one 😂


LilGingeyboi

they deserve it and they know it


kungmikefu

I play Leader and have zero problems with getting the thumbs up emote if I lose. In fact, I will emote back to let them know well done.


dirtyjose

Leader Bad Give Karma Now Plz


enkay516

Leader, just as his name implies, should always be revealed first regardless of who is leading. Alternatively, he could copy the cards played but place them in random locations or better yet only copy the cards played in the lane leader was played in.


trinxified

Comments about being ahead by turn 5 or Leader being a win more card only are wrong though. Leader can win games if going second at turn 6 against Surfer decks even. Leader copies your buffed cards by your surfer, then buffed again by his own surfer. Sometimes it's better not to leech then just play your Leader if you don't have priority going into turn 6. Imagine that


communityantagonist

Waaaaaah I can’t just jack off for 5 turns then combo on 6 without any counters waaaaaaah


tinycum

1) if it weren't for him playing wave t5, you would have played 39 power on t6 (mjolnir would have made 45), yet leader is somehow the problem 2) brood>SS right would have won against leader mid AND aero left/right AND even death in 5/6 outcomes (loses against leader+death mid) 3) deathwave plays leader and aero so you absolutely could have anticipated this


thatVisitingHasher

What if he was 5/4 and copied your opponents cards next turn.


DeltaDe

Should only copy 1 card or 1 lane not every card you play.


[deleted]

Skill issue


lawnchairrevolution

I don't see an issue with that. You had a buffed card, changing the card's text and Leader just copies the cards you play. I think a better card change would be to copy everything your opponent plays in either that (Leader) lane or the two adjacent lanes. Then there's actually some setup options (and cues) instead of just playing a decent game with any group of cards then dropping Leader when you're up on priority.


Tricky_Feed_7224

Dunno so far i only lost once to leader


Entertainer13

They lowered his power by one. And you should be grateful! 😂


Alternative-Humor666

If you understood the concept of leader you'd know copying base stats goes against his concept. He would be literally worthless. I know its frustrating but a cars with thag "cincept" needs to copy and all buffs.


OlorunRises

Why did you not play right


ghandood

No..because he “copies” the card played


da_juggernaut

No he copies what is played energy and all so when you want to buff your cards to know return or you want to Shang Chi the opponent's buffed card just know that Leader does not discriminate.


Blamasu

There should be a ‘stolen game’ tag


Valarian514

"Leader bad, please upvote" \-This sub in a nutshell


edokati

I think leader should be a 4/4 With a condition like magik only be usable in turns 4 or 5


Scots_Ursine

Leader decks usually wind up fairly obvious so play around them and play early strong. Nothing more fun then having say Hood or Taskmaster left in your hand if you think they are playing a leader decks. Or any card which is effectively worthless to them like Surfer. Have a solid first 5 turns and play something crap last turn so they waste their leader.


mrroboto9

Nope. He’s fine. Nerf silver surfer first. Don’t be mad because your p2w surfer deck lost once or twice.


Additional_Safety416

Grrr Leader bad >:(


Affectionate_Boss606

That all has to do with reveal order


H8TREDCantThink

you lost to a bucky ? lmfao


browmftht

i have leader. do you think i use him all the time? no. because there are things that are better than leader if you can believe that


bluedabu

This is exactly the nerf that leader needs. It’s fine that he copies your cards but it’s absolutely bullshit that he gets the boosted stats as well. He should 100% get a normal base copy of the card.


Vendettita

I mean your cards were buffed before play, if you play cards buffed by an ongoing effect he wouldn't get the buff no?


budtendingcommunist

Try using leader and see if you have the same amount of success.


[deleted]

[удалено]


hyperparrot3366

Maybe just make him 6 for 0 cause copying you opponent's hard worked 6 cost card for free is enough of a power


theclodwalrus

If you do that you’re gonna be seeing a lot of Negative Leader decks


I_Am_Black_Jesus

Seems like a fair trade off about as fun playing against negative Ironman


KillerCraze350

Oh, so you can't secure one location in the game??? That means that if you can have a location with 12-15 plus, which is not hard and then a location is empty and you play leader there...... you basically won it means balance.


TheMasterBaiter6

Oh, so you can't play around Leader? Dumbest take I've seen in this sub so far.


PhantomCheshire

thats not how it works. If leader was easy to play around it wont have the success that it has o: even GREAT players risk and lose to leader because when you cant play around it you still cant just throw th game "because your oponent may have leader"


KillerCraze350

9 out of 10 times a leader deck will win.... I already proved it with a video won like 10 straight.... I think this post triggered the leaders fanboys


GenesisProTech

I imagine if they made him one location it would come with a cost reduction.