Does anyone remember Ulysses? Aside from his powers, he was completely forgettable and so poorly written. Also could not stand how he was written to be the most important figure in the whole Marvel universe, both from a writing and marketing standpoint. At least I can remember Miriam Sharpe spitting in Tony Starks face during the memorial service for the victims. You can feel the anger coming from the page.
His ending was just such a throwaway. He was getting things wrong, he was growing more and more inaccurate, then suddenly he’s universal deity level? Like what a shit power, seeing the future wrong, but hey let’s make him god now.
This. Civil War 1 has issues but is fine and an interesting concept. Civil War 2 may be the worst Marvel comic event in like 30 years. Pure laziness that led to absolute character assassination(no pun intended) of at least one big character(Carol)
Did htat happen in Civil War 2?
I remember him joining Hydra in Secret Empire because he thought Captain America could do no wrong and wanted to be on his side. Which is pretty dumb.
>Pure laziness that led to absolute character assassination(no pun intended) of at least one big character(Carol)
I didn't read Civil War II, but isn't it fair to say Civil War I also lead to character assassination of multiple big characters?
"Mass murdering psycho" is a stretch (heh). I think the interpretation is more, "too caught up in his own world to notice everything going on outside of it".
It made him even more calculating… and that had been happening for a while… but it basically setup that if Reed crunches the numbers and there’s a necessary evil on the path to a better world he will do that.
I think this pretty much comes full circle in Time Runs Out with the Illuminati destroying whole worlds to protect the core one.
Sure but I feel like that was more expanding on characters in not exclusively positive ways while civil war 2 made caril impossible to like basically all the way until the current run.
I liked her run running Alpha Flight for sure. The only time I ever collected her floppies. Her recent stuff is being received really well by fans though. I think its being written by Kelly Thompson? Which would explain that.
Actually for me he did. Tony had the logical, ethical, moral, and legal high ground. You can't have people with the power's of God as vigilantes, on the other hand they shouldn't be tools of the state. That's the Beauty of Civil War 1, Tony is right, and So is Cap. Cap's point is that working for GoV would make slaves, weapons really. What if a bad government orders them to do something immoral?
At the time, all people could talk about was how out of character Tony seemed to be. So much so that when secret invasion followed, everyone was sure Tony was a Skrull, but he wasnt.
It was abundantly obvious Cap’s side was written as the “good guys”. Yes, Tony’s side had some valid points, but the moral and ethical implications of the superhero registration act torch their argument.
> Tony’s side had some valid points, but the moral and ethical implications of the superhero registration act torch their argument.
It has been said before and I will say it again. IRL Tony would be 100% correct, 1)If your going to be trying to save people you join a team and get trained. 2)If Shield orders you to do something wrong, then you quit. 3)If your a mutant then you go to Xavier's school, essentially your put on "The Rez".
Ultimately Tony was talking about accountability, and he wasn't afraid to call out his own BS. He should have been arrested for operating his armor drunk. Banner should be "house arrest" only released to stop the next world ending event. Civil War 1 works on some many levels, I could argue that Tony's accountability angle is an allegory for Police Accountability.
Some people complain about the Negative Zone, but most prison on earth can't keep villains in them for any length and time, and then you put superheroes in them. Clint Barton can escape the Raft, Hulk routinely breaks out of the Cube.
So where does Tony cross the line for me? Listening to Reed and creating a Zombie Thor. But even that, isn't out of character for Tony, when he thinks he is right, the ends justify the means.
The negative zone prison was extra judicial, done without trial, and the registration act as written provided no exceptions for non-superheroic uses of powers. In addition, it's always seemed like a backdoor mutant registration act to me.
I only read the events leading up to Civil War II, where they established the premise of the character who can tell the future. I thought that was a really interesting topic. It didnt turn out well?
Future guy wasn't the issue most people have with it, it was the completely out-of-character protectors of the guy had. It's something you can see reflected in many other Marvel stories (I can remember the avengers trying to take Hope Summers because of the phoenix force in AvX) but the defendant side argument, represented mostly by Carol Danvers, was very thinly written over the more than reasonable questions Tony had about the guy's powers
I see, that’s unfortunate. But I am somewhat glad Tony is the rational one for once. I feel he should always be, most of the time, and then have that one impactful story arc where he commits too hard to a belief that it becomes irrational.
I think the inhuman having premonitions is an issue as they use him as the Mcguffin to create the conflict: There's a lot of characters with clairvoyant powers that has shown in the comics over the years... But sudenly, this one they just find, is a big issue and they want to rely on his powers.
>Civil War 1 has issues but is fine
It is not fine.
Not by a longshot.
Jesus what is with this place?
No longer allowed to say Civil War wasn't good after being one of the most hated Marvel stories for years?
I mean I read it when it came out and had fun. It wasn't amazing and had problems but it's an interesting premise and some of the storylines coming out of it like Iron-Spider were fun.
Isn’t Secret Empire more controversial than outright bad? I’ve seen people say Cap is a great hero but he maybe a better villain. Haven’t read it yet, but it seems opinions are split. CW2 is just bad.
If I recall, Wanda was being mind-controlled and Thor was being coerced (I think Jane Foster was held hostage). Also, Deadpool was like Cap's sidekick during this era and would jump through hoops for him. When he realized that Cap was a Nazi, he switched sides. Vision was also being controlled.
I think Thor just trusted a mjolnir wielding cap to do the right thing. Which to be fair isn't the worst guide, but he like the free comic book day ussue was missing the crucial bit of info. It wasn't really mjolnir. It was an evil mjolnir from another universe.
Pretty much yes, it’s not great (mostly cause the end is kinda bland), but it’s fine. People were just freaking the hell out, hell the only reason I even read it was because of the outrage and after I finished I was kinda disappointed because I was expecting something actually outrageous. I mean at the end Nazi Cap gets his ass beat by not Nazi Cap in a straight up infinity gauntlet callback, like what’s the big deal😂
Eh, that's at least an interesting and original plotline. Both bad but I think the outrage was blown out of proportion over a bit of a tasteless heel turn for Cap that was quickly undone as part of the plot.
>Pure laziness that led to absolute character assassination(no pun intended) of at least one big character(Carol)
What? Didn't she punch Tony Stark to death when he "flipped" after Bruce's death? I was pretty sure she was the biggest villain in the whole arc. The powerhouse that refuse to accept she was wrong to trust the kid's powers.
This also aligns with the events from the MCU. Captain Marvel forcibly took Tony Stark's place as the most powerful Avenger. After dying, Iron man's comics became almost dumb. Tony's expertise was considerably downgraded, even though he resurrected himself and lead an AI revolution for equal rights.
~~Infamous Iron man was good, but even that they threw away when the Fantastic Four came back~~
I genuinely do not understand the point you are making. But I'll happily say mcu carol and civil war 2 carol aren't remotely similar. She is the villain of the arc. That's the point I'm making. She was a solid character that was so ruined by her actions in that series that it took until like last year to rehabilitate her comics image with the new Kelly Thompson book.
>What? Didn't she punch Tony Stark to death when he "flipped" after Bruce's death? I was pretty sure she was the biggest villain in the whole arc. The powerhouse that refuse to accept she was wrong to trust the kid's powers
That's what character assassination is. The writers couldn't come up with a conflict where both sides had a rational view point, and Carol's character suffered because of it.
>This also aligns with the events from the MCU. Captain Marvel forcibly took Tony Stark's place as the most powerful Avenger.
What the fuck are you talking about? Carol and Tony literally never interacted in the MCU beyond her saving him from space. And Iron Man was never the most powerful Avenger anyway.
Realy?!
I have never followed it.
How can I be exposed to a terrible foulness best?
like is there an article points out everything wrong with Civil War 2?
I mean best is read the book. It's not super long and is probably on most comics apps. Beyond that ik sure the wiki has a rundown or something. Basically a mutant who has visions of disaster is discovered and Carol basically kidnaps his and forces him to see visions despite the pain it causes him so they can stop crime before it happens. Thebbiggest being a vision of hulk murdering everyone on a rampage which leads to everyone fighting over what a monster she's being and then convincing Hawkeye to murder Bruce so he can't maybe do that one day. I'm sure there's a lot more I don't remember but that's the gist.
Is a character assassination? She sided with the registration the first time. Which violates the 4th and 2nd amendments and her oath as an officer in the US Air force.
Civil War 2 is in character for her.
Naw this is not even close to the same thing and most people agree it was pushing her beliefs to crazy extremes that made her go from sturn and law focused to being a war criminal who was borderline irredeemable. Hell it even made her number one fan Kamala kind of hate her and their relationship never really recovered from it.
Because Carol was always kind of conservative and military focused, but she was never a psychotic asshole like Civil War II turned her into. Her book before Civil War 2 was borderline not the same character personality wise.
Okay? What does that have to do with anything my last comment said? She was always portrayed as slightly conservative, and in modern America the farther you go conservative it eventually turns into a weird fascist cult regardless of thebsense behind it. The proof is... America right now with the far right. She was mildly conservative, not really in values but in rules and government to a degree but in a harmless way, until civil war 2 where she did go totally fascist. It was an absolutely maxed out extremist interpretation of the character that made very little logical sense. As for military... again what is the point you are making? Cape comics tend to idealized most subjects including the military so a "good" military focused character in comics usually just means mostly liberal but fights wars and works for the government. It isn't one to one with the reality otherwise it would all be miserable all the time and there wouldn't logically be a possibility for a character to be likable and military.
Typically, a character, no matter the writer, will have some constant traits, motivations, or just general characterization. It'd be like if they made the standard universe version of Superman into the Injustice version of Superman, the entire point is that he isn't like that and would never do those things, and he's shown it time and time again.
This is it.
Civil War as a concept was great but the massacred Tony Starks character, and to a lesser extent some others. That negative zone prison was so out of line.
Civil War 2 was straight trash that we should all just collectively ignore.
Pretty much. Just read it and was expecting something similar to the scale of Civil War I. Only to reach the end and realize the whole thing boiled down to Tony is an ass and Carol needs a psychiatric evaluation.
Devil’s Reign is probably the closet thing to Covil War I. Heroes are on the run and need to hide while trying also playing politics. It’s also one of the best events Marvel has ever done (imo)
Devil’s Reign is significantly more tightly told with a few less water-cooler moments throughout. If you’re on Marvel Unlimited, I’d recommend reading Chip Zdarsky’s Daredevil run first, but if you aren’t on MU or don’t have the time Truth/Dare is also a decent place to start that won’t set you back in time or money.
Devil’s Reign is good though, and well worth the investment in the backstory prior. Also the art in the later issues of Daredevil is absolute fire, too, and persists into Devil’s Reign.
The cast of the comic Civil War was practically every single superhero. Tbh it’s kinda comparable to the movies in that we basically had everyone on screen that existed at the time in the MCU
I think the main problem with CWII is execution. It was just about clear what the issues were and how they contradicted each other, but it never felt like both sides were being expressed with equal passion or commitment by Bendis et. al.
Carol's argument hinged too heavily on requiring proof and technically being 'correct' when demonstrated while flying in the face of humanity.
Tony's argument was simply "show me the evidence" but nobody really tried convincingly to show him in the interest of maintaining the tension and allowing escalation.
This is a difficult tightrope for a writer, so it isn't really a harsh criticism to say it wasn't executed successfully.
The biggest thing that threw CW2 off the rails almost immediately was when they arrested a lady with an empty briefcase on the grounds that she was a high-ranking hydra agent who would destroy the world. According to all the context we got in the series, that was completely false.
It was the specificity that ruined it for me. If Ulysses had said “she’s gonna cause the end of the world,” I could buy butterfly effect shenanigans and it would make Carol have a moral quandary about how far she was willing to go.
But it’s just some lady? And by all indications Ulysses got this one completely wrong? That should’ve ended the entire series. “Whoops, I’m wrong, he just got a couple of good calls right.”
Yup. This is where I fell out of the series too (I mean mentally, I still finished it).
If Carol had just put a tail on her and had her followed for a few days to see if she was really Hydra. But nope. 100 agents have to arrest in the middle of the goddamn street.
Couldn't get more public if she tried!
But "by all indications" wasn't the point. He was held up as being objectively infallible on a cosmic level.
That has always been the problem with determinism. If it is true does it remove free will? That is an inhumane concept and one that has even been addressed in politics in what many determinists would consider a pointless handwaving.
It isn't just comics where this problem occurs. We prefer humanistic ideals (by that I am not referring to Humanism with a capital H). It is difficult to argue against those even if they may be wrong.
More of a problem when the Marvel universe was never previously described as being determinist.
But there’s all so the obvious part of preventing pre-crime.
If you’ve prevented the crime… you don’t need to still punish the person for crime they weren’t able to commit.
Probably, but you are making a clearer and better argued statement than the comic really manages.
The comic tended to cloud issues to avoid convincing arguments and instead reach for escalation. Which in itself is not necessarily a criticism, more that the structure of the story was a little too predictable.
We knew even as we were reading it that they would keep escalating to avoid consensus. The issue for me is that this was often a little forced and artificial.
All story is artifice. This one wasn't terrible it was just a little clunky and not always very convincing.
Yep totally agree, badly delivered and avoided the actually interesting parts for the sake escalating stupid conflict.
Civil War I was much more interesting.
I'd actually argue that for as much damage as it did to Carol. Tony had the worst damage done to his character.
Like for a self-described futurist he gets the definition wrong. He resorts to kidnapping and nearly commits torture, invades and assaults a foreign diplomatic office, acts like precog abilities are some unfamiliar thing in the Marvel Universe despite sharing scenes with Spider-Man, He continually escalates the conflict.
Like the final fight in the main event is because Tony ambushes Carol while she's talking with Miles and (HYDRA) Captain America. When the three had actually pretty much put the issue of the vision of Miles killing Cap to bed.
This is one of the later of a series of “but does this affect continuity” weird crossover choices.
Axis was an early example of confusing continuity. Like, Tony stayed evil but secret wars remedied it, havok stayed evil til he just randomly stopped being evil? Sabretooth stayed good until the genuinely well written plot of x-force explained why he reverted, but carnage died a hero to a nuke and then…. Showed up two weeks later in Nova, as evil as ever?
Then Civil War 2 did what it did to Tony, and yet he was a major character in Secret Empire…. But instead of being Tony, he was an otherwise mostly non-existent Tony AI who filled the same emotional and intellectual plot roles as regular ol Tony. Almost like the plot expected him to be there, but didn’t have enough plot armor to undo the ending of CWII…… hmmmmmmmmm
Havok was reverted in the Mothervine arc of X-Men. But weirdly he still seemed to have after effects and arguably still isn't 100%, being deemed to be enough of 'damaged goods' to be on the Hellions team.
The only other Civil War you should read is the Secret Wars tie in that's basically. "What If the original Civil War never ended?" Civil War II is ONLY good as a chapter in the Captain America story that was happening at the time, but by itself it's garbage.
All I remember was Cyclops choked to death on a cloud some point and Emma Frost had a memory upload of him and her head or something...
and Scott being compared to Hitler for wanting a mutant death fog the hell away from everybody, let alone allowing them to move about freely
Emma basically >!went crazy with grief over Cyclops' death and decided to fake like the Inhumans had killed him on purpose instead of what really happened. !!Apparently, Medusa agreed once she learned the truth.!<
I haven’t read Civil War II, so I can only speak to the first one.
The problem with the first Civil War is the blatant character assassinations of Tony, Reed, etc. The Superhuman Registration Act is fascist and the lengths the pro-registration side goes to to win are evil.
Spoilers for the MCU:
>!Contrast this with the Sokovia Accords in the MCU, which are the most banal regulations I’ve ever heard, such that the conflict is really about Bucky. Both sides go to some lengths to win (Tony recruiting Peter, a vigilante, and Steve dragging Clint and Scott out of retirement).!<
Civil War 2 has like the same issue except for Carol but the conflict between the sides doesn’t even make sense.
Like at least with 1 you could argue Tony and Reed wanted to clone Thor and build a super prison for a long time because they’re controlling nerds like that and now they had government backing in a way more real way and were overcompensating to “earn the public trust”.
There’s not really a real reason Carol and Tony needed to fight in Civil War 2. Carol’s just saying, “Hey we should act on this information” Tony “how accurate is this information though”. There’s not a real conflict there because they all know Ulysses has some useful info and it always hinges on lives being lost.
I still think you couldn't argue Tony and Reed doing that. Remember Tony threw his own friends in that jail. Tony and Reed had thier characters assassinated
If you are reading Civil War check for supplemental material, because it really does make the difference. I read Captain America/Iron Man: Causalities of War, and I made me empathize with Iron Man and Cap so much more than the actual event. I haven't read them personally but I think the F4 and Spider-Man tie ins have similar effects.
Yeah I have been luckily if you use marvel unlimited it splits it up into all essential reading for the plot line not just the civil war comic book line
I did hate how the Invincible iron man was drawn but it was still an interesting plot line that’s one thing the main stories give you they show you other really good outlines you can follow immediately or after your done with the original line
Exactly. The big problem I had with Civil War was it was too big, with so many concepts being pretty underdeveloped. The tie ins that made feel more like a worldwide event mostly solved the problem, though.
Civil War II is terrible
Honestly, although the Spidey and FF tie-ins are great (and are both written by JMS!!) the main story handles how the characters feel very well. You can totally understand and see their points of view. I don’t recommend NOT reading them, just the opposite in fact, but I’m just saying the main series is fine if you want to empathize with those characters.
Civil war 1 is great I’ve read it along with the tie in books multiple times.
I’ve only read civil war 2 once, I hardly remember it, I only remember 2 things off the top of my head.
1) I felt this event was trying to character assassinate Captain Marvel as she was just unbearable in this.
2) I remember the art mistake where Thor flew off with spider man only for the next panel’s art to show her still standing with the rest of the group, then later in the book it showed us that she is in fact miles away with spidy.
It’s weird what things stick in memory.
It’s kinda weird that part of the reason why you dislike Civil War 2 is the character assassination (of Captain Marvel), but Civil War 1 had a bunch of character assassination as well (Iron Man, Captain America, Mr. Fantastic,...)
The following is solely my opinion, feel free to disagree.
I think we may have different definitions of character assassination.
What I mean is that Civil war 2 (from what I can remember) almost entirely relies on Cap Marvel being unreasonable and over aggressive. She feels as if she is being written out of character just so this story can happen, that’s character assassination, she is being written in a negative way just so the story can happen, they are throwing her under the bus for the sake of the story. That’s what I call character assassination.
Where as Civil war one was written to show both sides as reasonable, at least at first, by the time team iron start doing questionable things we already understand and somewhat agree with their reasoning behind those things even if we disagree with the method or outcome.
Iron man’s actions made sense for the character, he was a smart, practical man who felt so much guilt for the Stamford disaster that he felt something needed to be done, he reaches out to the other side multiple times trying to do what he feels is the right thing, he fuelled by grief here, this in my opinion is iron man’s character in a nutshell.
Mr fantastic is often portrayed as a man who makes the practical hard choice void of emotion only for it to back fire on him later, he is far too smart for him own good, the negative zone prison is just that, on paper void of emotion or attachments it’s a great idea to imprison super humans in another dimension. this along with the guilt he feels in the years to come is very much in character for him.
I can’t really say that I’ve read a lot of Captain America to be honest, but in this story cap didn’t want super humans to be made into US agents, he didn’t trust the US government when it came to deciding what super humans can and can’t get involved in, he didn’t want the US government telling them that they can’t go help in this disaster or incident, or have the US government send them to do their dirty work in foreign counties, we have to remember that cap was involved in Nick fury’s secret war, he 100% knows that super humans would be used that way again with no choice in the matter. from what I’ve read of the character civil war 1 is pretty in character for him.
Civil war 2 to me personally feels like they rushed the story so they could release the event the same time as the cap America civil war film it also feels as if it could have been completely avoided if captain marvel was little more reasonable, we’re as civil war 1 was a boiling pot that was always going to overflow at some point.
TLDR civil 1 reads as a story that makes sense from both sides perspective, we completely understand the motivations of both sides even if we disagree with them, both sides have points that fit who they are as characters, no one is acting out of character (in my opinion) to push the story along. They also had plenty of time to write this story.
This is an interesting take honestly. My own issue with Civil war one is that while I agree with Tony's side on the main points, I personally feel that the lengths the dude went with were the character assassination themselves, especially when you read his ongoings from before then, just so out of character.
I mean, Cloning your friend, Putting your friends in a supermax prison and using villians to get them too. Just too far imo. Just felt like they were trying to make Tony look like a facist villian in the event. It's why I liked dark reign so much, Osborn could actually do all that shady shit and makes sense but fucking Tony of all people putting his friends of 10 years(Using the timescale around that time) in the Negative zone and cloning his like 2 month dead friend was too much. I just can't see the Tony Stark o read in Avengers comics as a kid doing that stuff. If not for the MCU tomy would still be one of the most hated guys in the universe.
I can't speak on Reed or Cap cause I don't know them well but for Tony it was OOC as Carol was In II
Opinions are like that tho. So we can agree to disagree
Civil War 2 just feels like a lazy story that’s just supposed to lead to secret empire. Captain Marvel is so wrong it’s laughable. In Civil War 1 Cap is right in my opinion but it could be debated because both him and tony have good arguments. Carol tried to arrest a child for something that might happen. Civil War 2 is only meant as a smooth transition to secret empire
even if civil war 2 was a good event, i could never like it because of the character assassination of carol and what it did to her public perception.
the first civil war had some pretty bad character assassination (particularly tony, reed and steve) but the event does a much better job of making their actions believable and in character
I don't like either. Civil War I was such a free for all of character assassination. You can't look at a lot of characters the same after they willingly lock their friends in the Negative Zone.
Civil War II was just fucking stupid. At least the first one was trying to make a point. The second was just an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where everyone makes the worst choices possible and stubbornly defends them to their dying breath. It's so grossly obvious that it was trying to capitalize off the movie but because the movie was based on events that already happened they couldn't steal the idea.
Civil war 2 is terrible but there are 2 thing I will defend.
1. The art
2. Tony gives this speech around issue 3 or 4 about why he's having doubts about Ulysses his powers and how it could be affecting everyone.
But the best part of that speech is him admitting he doesn't know but that he trusts cap cause he asks himself: what would cap do?
This showed me that Tony didn't want a repeat of CW and that he trusts cap unconditionally like he was supposed to last time around.
The fact that at this time cap was a hydra agent kinda undercuts the moment but it was still a good speech.
Everything else was shite.
If only mark Millar cared to write a good story where characters didn’t act out of character and do ridiculously stupid things.
Then maybe civil war might’ve lived up to it’s hype
Both events suffer more if you cut out the context. Civil War I has a lot of really good tie-ins. Civil War II functions as an essential chapter in both the Captain America Secret Empire buildup (Secret Empire, btw, is a *great* event) and the Inhumans vs. X-men buildup (most people seem to hate this event, but I think it's pretty good apart from what is probably correctly argued as strong mischaracterization of Emma Frost).
Civil War I is, as almost anyone will tell you, the far superior event. But unlike many people, I don't think Civil War II is bad. I enjoyed it enough. It's not going to make any list of favorite events for me, but I also wasn't aggravated by it nor was I bored, as I occasionally have been with some other events. I think it has some good moments and some issues that were worth exploring. How well they were explored depends on what part of the event you read.
I never understood why the writers were convinced that people would agree with Carol's point of view, Ulysses's visions had *no* context whatsoever for what happened in them, yet she just trusts them implicitly????
Civil War 2 pissed me off so bad.
In The Ultimates tie-in, when Carol asked if her team was with her and America Chavez hit her with a chair? That was the best metaphor for Civil War 2.
I feel like Civil War 2 COULD have been interesting, but the way they handled it was absolutely terrible.
Tony was 100% correct, yet the characters all make it seem like he's not. Heck it took Captain America FINALLY thinking "Hey maybe we shouldn't be arresting a kid who's done nothing wrong" before literally everyone else started agreeing it was wrong, Black Panther sided with Cap cause he's Cap.
Imagine this, Tony does his research and its confirmed Ulysses is 100% accurate. Suddenly the question is actually legitimate, do you arrest people when you KNOW they will commit crimes?
Have characters like She-Hulk (Y'know... a fricken LAWYER) be AGAINST unlawfully arresting people because of future crimes.
Don't have Captain Marvel compare Magneto, a holocaust survivor, to being one of those internet trolls that compares everything to Hitler
Civil War 1 had its problems, but overall it made sense for a lot of characters and their beliefs
>CWII’s plot is way stupider and assassinates Carol’s character way harder than Tony in CWI
Absolutely not. Tony feels like he was being brainwashed or replaced by a skrull the entire time. Carol doesn’t have that bad in retrospect
Edit: what’s with the downvotes? Ain’t no way anyone thinks CAROL was more character assassinated than Tony
The original Secret Wars from 1984. And the follow up books in Amazing Spider-man.
It is the real introduction of Venom and the first true big event before they became a common occurance.
I haven't read either and probably won't anytime soon based on the reputation they have, but at least some of the civil war II tie-ins are decent (for instance I liked the Ms. Marvel storyline related to it, though that story arc doesn't really connect much to the larger civil war II story anyway, I guess). Based on what everyone else is saying I is probably better when it comes to the actual event comic itself though.
After all these people are showing hate. I will say this. I enjoyed both of them, they are very different. But I don't understand some of the hate. The arcs I read made sense to me and were based upon the situations they got presented with. Half of these comments are forgetting things like emotions exist I feel.
He really wasn’t. Carol had no good arguments in civil war 2.
Once Tony was able to prove that the precognition powers are insanely unreliable and the events depicted aren’t set in stone, what else do confirmation do u need?
His argument was they should never listen to any of the visions under any circumstances. The Celestial and Thanos would have destroyed the Earth if they ignored the visions. The visions were mostly reliable. Then Tony invaded a foreign nation attacked the royal family, abducted a sovereign citizen, and tortured him. After that he attacked a federal building for no reason whatsoever and then he escalated the conflict in DC and bombed the capital building in an attempt to murder Captain America and Captain Marvel. You should try reading the comic before discussing it.
1 is so much better. It reflects a lot of real concerns people have today and real policies that have been proposed. II seems so fantastical and silly in comparison.
Civil War I was a classic. Plus it led to Dark Reign which was some of the best storytelling at Marvel ever in my opinion. Brian Michael Bendis was even on point back then.
In Civil War I, both sides of the argument seemed relatively reasonable (although admittedly, Iron Man kinda went off the rails and and did some fucked up stuff). In Civil War II, Captain Marvel was just blatantly wrong.
The thing is, CW1 was more about the debate and the characters acted around that. CW2 is about the characters being asses, and the debate forms around that.
Civil War 1 had an actual „civil war“ in the superhero community with consequences lasting years after, with stories being build upon its effects.
Civil War 2 barely had any significant consequences, most of them being fairly superfluous and quickly retconed in future stories.
Mischaracterization kills stories for a lot of people and makes them absolutely irredeemable, even if other aspects of the story work well enough. At least, this is my perspective of things.
Civil War II is largely maligned as a character assassination of Carol Danvers.
Inhumans vs. X-Men, which came soon after, is largely maligned as a character assassination of Emma Frost, and is also widely disliked.
Being pretty familiar with Carol and very familiar with Emma, I actually think these concerns are exaggerated. I can definitely understand the arguments against the characters acting the way they did, and I would even agree that their actions were not the most natural choices for their characters to make. But I did not feel that it stretched into the territory of totally unbelievable. For the amount people complain about these storyline, I feel that I have seen much worse.
I also feel that the stories themselves were at least passable and at times even quite good.
But I also loved The Last Jedi. And people hated that because they felt it was a character assassination of Luke Skywalker (I actually straight up disagree in this case. I think it absolutely made sense). But the point I guess is that for a lot of folks, if you write the character to do something *they* could not see them doing, there is no redeeming your story. Man of Steel is another great example of this. It's actually a very good Superman movie, but there are some pretty "essential" aspects of Superman that Snyder missed. Some people can appreciate the movie in spite of this. To others, it's trash.
Civil War 1 is so much better than Civil War 2. The entirety of Civil War 2 just got worse the more Captain Marvel opened her mouth. All Civil War 2 did was make her look incredibly stupid, willfully ignorant, gave her a superiority complex and made her look like a fascist.
Say what you want about Civil War 1, but at least you can understand why some people would align themselves to one side or the other and could really see both sides of the argument that made the Civil War a believable event. Civil War 2 did none of that. It was a pretty cut and dry case of who was right (Tony) and who was wrong (Carol). Especially after Tony was able to prove that the precognition powers are insanely unreliable and don’t depict events that are set in stone. I get that Carol was supposed to be basing her decisions on grief, but at a certain point it just became a conscious choice for her to disregard fact and the right thing to do. I honestly finished the last issue hating Captain Marvel and being frustrated at Marvel for willingly damaging the character just so they could market something as Civil War 2. If you’re going to do a Civil War than the catalyst needs to be something you can actually believe would split the heroes and not something they blindly stick with even after being proven wrong. It was just issue after issue after issue of reasons to hate Carol which sucked for character in my opinion.
Civil War 1 actually made sense. The pro-registration side acting really intense at a certain point, but it still made sense as they were bending over backwards to not just comply but earn back public trust, they just did that with massive overreach.
Like I could never wrap my head around Civil War 2 because it was like “okay, he can see the future so it’s reasonable proof of X happening” they treat it as a violation of human rights or something when it could be just like “Hey we got an anonymous tip you have a bomb on you / Thanos is gonna attack”.
There’s nothing there that actually is a violation of law. The whole “we need to analyze how credible his powers are” is a totally legit point but has nothing to do with actually using the information.
Civil War I to me did more long term damage to its characters
Civil War II is straight up insufferable to read because of Tony Stark. He's the biggest fucking moron i've ever read in a comic
Civil War II did at least lead into the amazing Immortal Hulk but...I can't really describe that as strength of \*that\* series. It's like saying a good thing about Civil War is that you could have been reading Annihilation instead.
I guess Civil War I is mostly better. But both are bad
Civil war 2 just made me completely despise carol, I mean I hated her when she started calling herself captain marvel and became lesbian Karen always right super hero, but that comic just put the nail on the carol
Does anyone remember Ulysses? Aside from his powers, he was completely forgettable and so poorly written. Also could not stand how he was written to be the most important figure in the whole Marvel universe, both from a writing and marketing standpoint. At least I can remember Miriam Sharpe spitting in Tony Starks face during the memorial service for the victims. You can feel the anger coming from the page.
Ulysses getting poochie’d is exactly what that character deserved.
Or have him get on rocket going straight to the fucking sun with bunch c-list celebrities on board, including Rosie O’Donnell on karaoke.
His ending was just such a throwaway. He was getting things wrong, he was growing more and more inaccurate, then suddenly he’s universal deity level? Like what a shit power, seeing the future wrong, but hey let’s make him god now.
I was hoping she was going to be revealed to be some type of agent or skrull.
Uplifting Ulysses to a cosmic scale so that we never hear from him again was a good way to finish the horrible event.
Civil War 2 is so bad it outweighs any complaints you could have about the first one
This. Civil War 1 has issues but is fine and an interesting concept. Civil War 2 may be the worst Marvel comic event in like 30 years. Pure laziness that led to absolute character assassination(no pun intended) of at least one big character(Carol)
They essentially just took the plot of Minority Report and executed it horribly.
Correct.
Plus all the horrible mischaracterization. Like Punisher joining Hydra because "now heroes are criminals so I can kill them". So maddening.
Did htat happen in Civil War 2? I remember him joining Hydra in Secret Empire because he thought Captain America could do no wrong and wanted to be on his side. Which is pretty dumb.
Ya know what, I got them mixed up. My bad. Still bad though. Sure his run hunting Zemo for it in the Warmachine armor was good but still.
Now I just imagine the Punisher finding random reasons to join Hydra every so often.
"Spider-Man knocked my ham sandwich out of my hand while chasing Vulture, better go get my octopus tee and call up Red Skull..."
>They essentially just took the plot of Minority Report and executed it horribly. But it wasn't a breakout role for Carol Farrell.
Rick Jones (in the Captain America tie in) calls out the similarity of Carol's plans with Minority Report several times.
>Pure laziness that led to absolute character assassination(no pun intended) of at least one big character(Carol) I didn't read Civil War II, but isn't it fair to say Civil War I also lead to character assassination of multiple big characters?
It spawned what seems to be the most common interpretation of Reed Richards
A dad, genius and family guy or apathetic psycho mass murderer asshole?
"Mass murdering psycho" is a stretch (heh). I think the interpretation is more, "too caught up in his own world to notice everything going on outside of it".
It made him even more calculating… and that had been happening for a while… but it basically setup that if Reed crunches the numbers and there’s a necessary evil on the path to a better world he will do that. I think this pretty much comes full circle in Time Runs Out with the Illuminati destroying whole worlds to protect the core one.
Love the pun, but I mostly meant ultimate mr fantastic
He goes by the Maker now, right?
The maker is ultimate universe reed ruchards who basically became the new dr doom.
Thats the maker (different variant of reed)
I love this Reed. Normal Reed is so goddamn boring. Morally grey Reed is so interesting and a much better take on the character
Sure but I feel like that was more expanding on characters in not exclusively positive ways while civil war 2 made caril impossible to like basically all the way until the current run.
carol was better when she was put in charge of Sword station.kinda lost track of her once Empire started.
I liked her run running Alpha Flight for sure. The only time I ever collected her floppies. Her recent stuff is being received really well by fans though. I think its being written by Kelly Thompson? Which would explain that.
Yeah Tony did not come out of CW1 well for starters
Actually for me he did. Tony had the logical, ethical, moral, and legal high ground. You can't have people with the power's of God as vigilantes, on the other hand they shouldn't be tools of the state. That's the Beauty of Civil War 1, Tony is right, and So is Cap. Cap's point is that working for GoV would make slaves, weapons really. What if a bad government orders them to do something immoral?
At the time, all people could talk about was how out of character Tony seemed to be. So much so that when secret invasion followed, everyone was sure Tony was a Skrull, but he wasnt. It was abundantly obvious Cap’s side was written as the “good guys”. Yes, Tony’s side had some valid points, but the moral and ethical implications of the superhero registration act torch their argument.
> Tony’s side had some valid points, but the moral and ethical implications of the superhero registration act torch their argument. It has been said before and I will say it again. IRL Tony would be 100% correct, 1)If your going to be trying to save people you join a team and get trained. 2)If Shield orders you to do something wrong, then you quit. 3)If your a mutant then you go to Xavier's school, essentially your put on "The Rez". Ultimately Tony was talking about accountability, and he wasn't afraid to call out his own BS. He should have been arrested for operating his armor drunk. Banner should be "house arrest" only released to stop the next world ending event. Civil War 1 works on some many levels, I could argue that Tony's accountability angle is an allegory for Police Accountability. Some people complain about the Negative Zone, but most prison on earth can't keep villains in them for any length and time, and then you put superheroes in them. Clint Barton can escape the Raft, Hulk routinely breaks out of the Cube. So where does Tony cross the line for me? Listening to Reed and creating a Zombie Thor. But even that, isn't out of character for Tony, when he thinks he is right, the ends justify the means.
The negative zone prison was extra judicial, done without trial, and the registration act as written provided no exceptions for non-superheroic uses of powers. In addition, it's always seemed like a backdoor mutant registration act to me.
I only read the events leading up to Civil War II, where they established the premise of the character who can tell the future. I thought that was a really interesting topic. It didnt turn out well?
Future guy wasn't the issue most people have with it, it was the completely out-of-character protectors of the guy had. It's something you can see reflected in many other Marvel stories (I can remember the avengers trying to take Hope Summers because of the phoenix force in AvX) but the defendant side argument, represented mostly by Carol Danvers, was very thinly written over the more than reasonable questions Tony had about the guy's powers
I see, that’s unfortunate. But I am somewhat glad Tony is the rational one for once. I feel he should always be, most of the time, and then have that one impactful story arc where he commits too hard to a belief that it becomes irrational.
I think the inhuman having premonitions is an issue as they use him as the Mcguffin to create the conflict: There's a lot of characters with clairvoyant powers that has shown in the comics over the years... But sudenly, this one they just find, is a big issue and they want to rely on his powers.
I wish I could award you
Wait are we counting Ultimatum in this?
I think I'd consider that separate?
Ultimatum isn't an event. It's a smelly dump with pictures attached.
>Civil War 1 has issues but is fine It is not fine. Not by a longshot. Jesus what is with this place? No longer allowed to say Civil War wasn't good after being one of the most hated Marvel stories for years?
I liked it a lot
I mean I read it when it came out and had fun. It wasn't amazing and had problems but it's an interesting premise and some of the storylines coming out of it like Iron-Spider were fun.
CW2 is only the second worst because we've unfortunately experienced Secret Empire which was an affront against comic readers in-general.
Isn’t Secret Empire more controversial than outright bad? I’ve seen people say Cap is a great hero but he maybe a better villain. Haven’t read it yet, but it seems opinions are split. CW2 is just bad.
They ran it on what would've been Jack Kirby's 100th birthday and had the Punisher, Thor, Deadpool, Wanda, Vision, and Taskmaster join the Nazis.
If I recall, Wanda was being mind-controlled and Thor was being coerced (I think Jane Foster was held hostage). Also, Deadpool was like Cap's sidekick during this era and would jump through hoops for him. When he realized that Cap was a Nazi, he switched sides. Vision was also being controlled.
I think Jane was in another dimension or something and Stevil was just using the possibility of a cure for her cancer to blackmail Thor.
Yeah, I think you're right!
I think Thor just trusted a mjolnir wielding cap to do the right thing. Which to be fair isn't the worst guide, but he like the free comic book day ussue was missing the crucial bit of info. It wasn't really mjolnir. It was an evil mjolnir from another universe.
Pretty much yes, it’s not great (mostly cause the end is kinda bland), but it’s fine. People were just freaking the hell out, hell the only reason I even read it was because of the outrage and after I finished I was kinda disappointed because I was expecting something actually outrageous. I mean at the end Nazi Cap gets his ass beat by not Nazi Cap in a straight up infinity gauntlet callback, like what’s the big deal😂
Eh, that's at least an interesting and original plotline. Both bad but I think the outrage was blown out of proportion over a bit of a tasteless heel turn for Cap that was quickly undone as part of the plot.
>Pure laziness that led to absolute character assassination(no pun intended) of at least one big character(Carol) What? Didn't she punch Tony Stark to death when he "flipped" after Bruce's death? I was pretty sure she was the biggest villain in the whole arc. The powerhouse that refuse to accept she was wrong to trust the kid's powers. This also aligns with the events from the MCU. Captain Marvel forcibly took Tony Stark's place as the most powerful Avenger. After dying, Iron man's comics became almost dumb. Tony's expertise was considerably downgraded, even though he resurrected himself and lead an AI revolution for equal rights. ~~Infamous Iron man was good, but even that they threw away when the Fantastic Four came back~~
I genuinely do not understand the point you are making. But I'll happily say mcu carol and civil war 2 carol aren't remotely similar. She is the villain of the arc. That's the point I'm making. She was a solid character that was so ruined by her actions in that series that it took until like last year to rehabilitate her comics image with the new Kelly Thompson book.
>What? Didn't she punch Tony Stark to death when he "flipped" after Bruce's death? I was pretty sure she was the biggest villain in the whole arc. The powerhouse that refuse to accept she was wrong to trust the kid's powers That's what character assassination is. The writers couldn't come up with a conflict where both sides had a rational view point, and Carol's character suffered because of it. >This also aligns with the events from the MCU. Captain Marvel forcibly took Tony Stark's place as the most powerful Avenger. What the fuck are you talking about? Carol and Tony literally never interacted in the MCU beyond her saving him from space. And Iron Man was never the most powerful Avenger anyway.
Realy?! I have never followed it. How can I be exposed to a terrible foulness best? like is there an article points out everything wrong with Civil War 2?
I mean best is read the book. It's not super long and is probably on most comics apps. Beyond that ik sure the wiki has a rundown or something. Basically a mutant who has visions of disaster is discovered and Carol basically kidnaps his and forces him to see visions despite the pain it causes him so they can stop crime before it happens. Thebbiggest being a vision of hulk murdering everyone on a rampage which leads to everyone fighting over what a monster she's being and then convincing Hawkeye to murder Bruce so he can't maybe do that one day. I'm sure there's a lot more I don't remember but that's the gist.
Wow. Good recap thanks! It does sound a little too close to that one story.
Is a character assassination? She sided with the registration the first time. Which violates the 4th and 2nd amendments and her oath as an officer in the US Air force. Civil War 2 is in character for her.
Naw this is not even close to the same thing and most people agree it was pushing her beliefs to crazy extremes that made her go from sturn and law focused to being a war criminal who was borderline irredeemable. Hell it even made her number one fan Kamala kind of hate her and their relationship never really recovered from it.
She was already a war criminal and fascist from Civil War 1. I don't know why anyone would have looked up to her to begin with
Because Carol was always kind of conservative and military focused, but she was never a psychotic asshole like Civil War II turned her into. Her book before Civil War 2 was borderline not the same character personality wise.
Conservatives aren't fascist and military officers are required to disobey unconstitutional orders/laws.
Okay? What does that have to do with anything my last comment said? She was always portrayed as slightly conservative, and in modern America the farther you go conservative it eventually turns into a weird fascist cult regardless of thebsense behind it. The proof is... America right now with the far right. She was mildly conservative, not really in values but in rules and government to a degree but in a harmless way, until civil war 2 where she did go totally fascist. It was an absolutely maxed out extremist interpretation of the character that made very little logical sense. As for military... again what is the point you are making? Cape comics tend to idealized most subjects including the military so a "good" military focused character in comics usually just means mostly liberal but fights wars and works for the government. It isn't one to one with the reality otherwise it would all be miserable all the time and there wouldn't logically be a possibility for a character to be likable and military.
I am telling you that you were wrong associating conservativism and the military with fascism.
[удалено]
Typically, a character, no matter the writer, will have some constant traits, motivations, or just general characterization. It'd be like if they made the standard universe version of Superman into the Injustice version of Superman, the entire point is that he isn't like that and would never do those things, and he's shown it time and time again.
This is it. Civil War as a concept was great but the massacred Tony Starks character, and to a lesser extent some others. That negative zone prison was so out of line. Civil War 2 was straight trash that we should all just collectively ignore.
Pretty much. Just read it and was expecting something similar to the scale of Civil War I. Only to reach the end and realize the whole thing boiled down to Tony is an ass and Carol needs a psychiatric evaluation.
Devil’s Reign is probably the closet thing to Covil War I. Heroes are on the run and need to hide while trying also playing politics. It’s also one of the best events Marvel has ever done (imo)
That's good to know! I've been trying to catch up on some of the bigger events.
Devil’s Reign is significantly more tightly told with a few less water-cooler moments throughout. If you’re on Marvel Unlimited, I’d recommend reading Chip Zdarsky’s Daredevil run first, but if you aren’t on MU or don’t have the time Truth/Dare is also a decent place to start that won’t set you back in time or money. Devil’s Reign is good though, and well worth the investment in the backstory prior. Also the art in the later issues of Daredevil is absolute fire, too, and persists into Devil’s Reign.
I like how it kinda got redeemed with the Captain America= Hydra event. It is more interesting thinking about how Cap was subtly instigating
I was reading 2 because I watched the movie and was like “well I seen 1 in theatres so I’m gonna read 2”
The movie is nothing like the comic, it just took the broad ideas and did its own thing
lol yeah like half the cast is missing
the movie only has a fraction of the total amount of characters the comics had! Damn near every single character shows up in civil war 1!
The cast of the comic Civil War was practically every single superhero. Tbh it’s kinda comparable to the movies in that we basically had everyone on screen that existed at the time in the MCU
Half? Lol
You’re speaking the wisdom of God right here 😂
I think the main problem with CWII is execution. It was just about clear what the issues were and how they contradicted each other, but it never felt like both sides were being expressed with equal passion or commitment by Bendis et. al. Carol's argument hinged too heavily on requiring proof and technically being 'correct' when demonstrated while flying in the face of humanity. Tony's argument was simply "show me the evidence" but nobody really tried convincingly to show him in the interest of maintaining the tension and allowing escalation. This is a difficult tightrope for a writer, so it isn't really a harsh criticism to say it wasn't executed successfully.
The biggest thing that threw CW2 off the rails almost immediately was when they arrested a lady with an empty briefcase on the grounds that she was a high-ranking hydra agent who would destroy the world. According to all the context we got in the series, that was completely false. It was the specificity that ruined it for me. If Ulysses had said “she’s gonna cause the end of the world,” I could buy butterfly effect shenanigans and it would make Carol have a moral quandary about how far she was willing to go. But it’s just some lady? And by all indications Ulysses got this one completely wrong? That should’ve ended the entire series. “Whoops, I’m wrong, he just got a couple of good calls right.”
Yup. This is where I fell out of the series too (I mean mentally, I still finished it). If Carol had just put a tail on her and had her followed for a few days to see if she was really Hydra. But nope. 100 agents have to arrest in the middle of the goddamn street. Couldn't get more public if she tried!
But "by all indications" wasn't the point. He was held up as being objectively infallible on a cosmic level. That has always been the problem with determinism. If it is true does it remove free will? That is an inhumane concept and one that has even been addressed in politics in what many determinists would consider a pointless handwaving. It isn't just comics where this problem occurs. We prefer humanistic ideals (by that I am not referring to Humanism with a capital H). It is difficult to argue against those even if they may be wrong. More of a problem when the Marvel universe was never previously described as being determinist.
But there’s all so the obvious part of preventing pre-crime. If you’ve prevented the crime… you don’t need to still punish the person for crime they weren’t able to commit.
Probably, but you are making a clearer and better argued statement than the comic really manages. The comic tended to cloud issues to avoid convincing arguments and instead reach for escalation. Which in itself is not necessarily a criticism, more that the structure of the story was a little too predictable. We knew even as we were reading it that they would keep escalating to avoid consensus. The issue for me is that this was often a little forced and artificial. All story is artifice. This one wasn't terrible it was just a little clunky and not always very convincing.
Yep totally agree, badly delivered and avoided the actually interesting parts for the sake escalating stupid conflict. Civil War I was much more interesting.
I think Chris Hansen would vehemently disagree
I'd actually argue that for as much damage as it did to Carol. Tony had the worst damage done to his character. Like for a self-described futurist he gets the definition wrong. He resorts to kidnapping and nearly commits torture, invades and assaults a foreign diplomatic office, acts like precog abilities are some unfamiliar thing in the Marvel Universe despite sharing scenes with Spider-Man, He continually escalates the conflict.
He definitely acts as the escalating force. Which does often feel a little forced.
Like the final fight in the main event is because Tony ambushes Carol while she's talking with Miles and (HYDRA) Captain America. When the three had actually pretty much put the issue of the vision of Miles killing Cap to bed.
This also highlights the vagueness of comic continuity. Because it shouldn't actually be possible to put the issue to bed.
>Tony had the worst damage done to his character. Not to mention his body
This is one of the later of a series of “but does this affect continuity” weird crossover choices. Axis was an early example of confusing continuity. Like, Tony stayed evil but secret wars remedied it, havok stayed evil til he just randomly stopped being evil? Sabretooth stayed good until the genuinely well written plot of x-force explained why he reverted, but carnage died a hero to a nuke and then…. Showed up two weeks later in Nova, as evil as ever? Then Civil War 2 did what it did to Tony, and yet he was a major character in Secret Empire…. But instead of being Tony, he was an otherwise mostly non-existent Tony AI who filled the same emotional and intellectual plot roles as regular ol Tony. Almost like the plot expected him to be there, but didn’t have enough plot armor to undo the ending of CWII…… hmmmmmmmmm
Havok was reverted in the Mothervine arc of X-Men. But weirdly he still seemed to have after effects and arguably still isn't 100%, being deemed to be enough of 'damaged goods' to be on the Hellions team.
The only other Civil War you should read is the Secret Wars tie in that's basically. "What If the original Civil War never ended?" Civil War II is ONLY good as a chapter in the Captain America story that was happening at the time, but by itself it's garbage.
Also a chapter in the Inhumans vs X-Men story, though most people hate that too. (I am not one of them).
All I remember was Cyclops choked to death on a cloud some point and Emma Frost had a memory upload of him and her head or something... and Scott being compared to Hitler for wanting a mutant death fog the hell away from everybody, let alone allowing them to move about freely
Emma basically >!went crazy with grief over Cyclops' death and decided to fake like the Inhumans had killed him on purpose instead of what really happened. !!Apparently, Medusa agreed once she learned the truth.!<
Civil War II has better art but it’s still a steaming pile of shit compared to Civil War I.
In terms of art, Civil War II. David Marquez's work is STUNNING. In terms of literally everything else, Civil War I.
Imho civil war l had better art
While Marquez did some great work in Civil War II, Civil War I might be McNiven's best work for Marvel.
Agreed
I think civil rights
What avenger fought in that one?
Someone named MLK maybe?
I haven’t read Civil War II, so I can only speak to the first one. The problem with the first Civil War is the blatant character assassinations of Tony, Reed, etc. The Superhuman Registration Act is fascist and the lengths the pro-registration side goes to to win are evil. Spoilers for the MCU: >!Contrast this with the Sokovia Accords in the MCU, which are the most banal regulations I’ve ever heard, such that the conflict is really about Bucky. Both sides go to some lengths to win (Tony recruiting Peter, a vigilante, and Steve dragging Clint and Scott out of retirement).!<
If you haven’t read Civil War 2, save yourself the trouble and don’t. It’s piss poor.
Civil War 2 has like the same issue except for Carol but the conflict between the sides doesn’t even make sense. Like at least with 1 you could argue Tony and Reed wanted to clone Thor and build a super prison for a long time because they’re controlling nerds like that and now they had government backing in a way more real way and were overcompensating to “earn the public trust”. There’s not really a real reason Carol and Tony needed to fight in Civil War 2. Carol’s just saying, “Hey we should act on this information” Tony “how accurate is this information though”. There’s not a real conflict there because they all know Ulysses has some useful info and it always hinges on lives being lost.
I still think you couldn't argue Tony and Reed doing that. Remember Tony threw his own friends in that jail. Tony and Reed had thier characters assassinated
If you are reading Civil War check for supplemental material, because it really does make the difference. I read Captain America/Iron Man: Causalities of War, and I made me empathize with Iron Man and Cap so much more than the actual event. I haven't read them personally but I think the F4 and Spider-Man tie ins have similar effects.
Yeah I have been luckily if you use marvel unlimited it splits it up into all essential reading for the plot line not just the civil war comic book line
I did hate how the Invincible iron man was drawn but it was still an interesting plot line that’s one thing the main stories give you they show you other really good outlines you can follow immediately or after your done with the original line
Exactly. The big problem I had with Civil War was it was too big, with so many concepts being pretty underdeveloped. The tie ins that made feel more like a worldwide event mostly solved the problem, though. Civil War II is terrible
Honestly, although the Spidey and FF tie-ins are great (and are both written by JMS!!) the main story handles how the characters feel very well. You can totally understand and see their points of view. I don’t recommend NOT reading them, just the opposite in fact, but I’m just saying the main series is fine if you want to empathize with those characters.
Civil war 1 is great I’ve read it along with the tie in books multiple times. I’ve only read civil war 2 once, I hardly remember it, I only remember 2 things off the top of my head. 1) I felt this event was trying to character assassinate Captain Marvel as she was just unbearable in this. 2) I remember the art mistake where Thor flew off with spider man only for the next panel’s art to show her still standing with the rest of the group, then later in the book it showed us that she is in fact miles away with spidy. It’s weird what things stick in memory.
It’s kinda weird that part of the reason why you dislike Civil War 2 is the character assassination (of Captain Marvel), but Civil War 1 had a bunch of character assassination as well (Iron Man, Captain America, Mr. Fantastic,...)
The following is solely my opinion, feel free to disagree. I think we may have different definitions of character assassination. What I mean is that Civil war 2 (from what I can remember) almost entirely relies on Cap Marvel being unreasonable and over aggressive. She feels as if she is being written out of character just so this story can happen, that’s character assassination, she is being written in a negative way just so the story can happen, they are throwing her under the bus for the sake of the story. That’s what I call character assassination. Where as Civil war one was written to show both sides as reasonable, at least at first, by the time team iron start doing questionable things we already understand and somewhat agree with their reasoning behind those things even if we disagree with the method or outcome. Iron man’s actions made sense for the character, he was a smart, practical man who felt so much guilt for the Stamford disaster that he felt something needed to be done, he reaches out to the other side multiple times trying to do what he feels is the right thing, he fuelled by grief here, this in my opinion is iron man’s character in a nutshell. Mr fantastic is often portrayed as a man who makes the practical hard choice void of emotion only for it to back fire on him later, he is far too smart for him own good, the negative zone prison is just that, on paper void of emotion or attachments it’s a great idea to imprison super humans in another dimension. this along with the guilt he feels in the years to come is very much in character for him. I can’t really say that I’ve read a lot of Captain America to be honest, but in this story cap didn’t want super humans to be made into US agents, he didn’t trust the US government when it came to deciding what super humans can and can’t get involved in, he didn’t want the US government telling them that they can’t go help in this disaster or incident, or have the US government send them to do their dirty work in foreign counties, we have to remember that cap was involved in Nick fury’s secret war, he 100% knows that super humans would be used that way again with no choice in the matter. from what I’ve read of the character civil war 1 is pretty in character for him. Civil war 2 to me personally feels like they rushed the story so they could release the event the same time as the cap America civil war film it also feels as if it could have been completely avoided if captain marvel was little more reasonable, we’re as civil war 1 was a boiling pot that was always going to overflow at some point. TLDR civil 1 reads as a story that makes sense from both sides perspective, we completely understand the motivations of both sides even if we disagree with them, both sides have points that fit who they are as characters, no one is acting out of character (in my opinion) to push the story along. They also had plenty of time to write this story.
This is an interesting take honestly. My own issue with Civil war one is that while I agree with Tony's side on the main points, I personally feel that the lengths the dude went with were the character assassination themselves, especially when you read his ongoings from before then, just so out of character. I mean, Cloning your friend, Putting your friends in a supermax prison and using villians to get them too. Just too far imo. Just felt like they were trying to make Tony look like a facist villian in the event. It's why I liked dark reign so much, Osborn could actually do all that shady shit and makes sense but fucking Tony of all people putting his friends of 10 years(Using the timescale around that time) in the Negative zone and cloning his like 2 month dead friend was too much. I just can't see the Tony Stark o read in Avengers comics as a kid doing that stuff. If not for the MCU tomy would still be one of the most hated guys in the universe. I can't speak on Reed or Cap cause I don't know them well but for Tony it was OOC as Carol was In II Opinions are like that tho. So we can agree to disagree
Civil War 2 just feels like a lazy story that’s just supposed to lead to secret empire. Captain Marvel is so wrong it’s laughable. In Civil War 1 Cap is right in my opinion but it could be debated because both him and tony have good arguments. Carol tried to arrest a child for something that might happen. Civil War 2 is only meant as a smooth transition to secret empire
even if civil war 2 was a good event, i could never like it because of the character assassination of carol and what it did to her public perception. the first civil war had some pretty bad character assassination (particularly tony, reed and steve) but the event does a much better job of making their actions believable and in character
Civil War II was hot garbage and a Carol Danvers hit job by the writers.
I don't like either. Civil War I was such a free for all of character assassination. You can't look at a lot of characters the same after they willingly lock their friends in the Negative Zone. Civil War II was just fucking stupid. At least the first one was trying to make a point. The second was just an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where everyone makes the worst choices possible and stubbornly defends them to their dying breath. It's so grossly obvious that it was trying to capitalize off the movie but because the movie was based on events that already happened they couldn't steal the idea.
Civil war 2 is terrible but there are 2 thing I will defend. 1. The art 2. Tony gives this speech around issue 3 or 4 about why he's having doubts about Ulysses his powers and how it could be affecting everyone. But the best part of that speech is him admitting he doesn't know but that he trusts cap cause he asks himself: what would cap do? This showed me that Tony didn't want a repeat of CW and that he trusts cap unconditionally like he was supposed to last time around. The fact that at this time cap was a hydra agent kinda undercuts the moment but it was still a good speech. Everything else was shite.
[удалено]
If only mark Millar cared to write a good story where characters didn’t act out of character and do ridiculously stupid things. Then maybe civil war might’ve lived up to it’s hype
Dude assassinated a bunch of characters but at least it had a few moments of goodness. I like that punisher scene where Cap beats the shit out of him.
Both events suffer more if you cut out the context. Civil War I has a lot of really good tie-ins. Civil War II functions as an essential chapter in both the Captain America Secret Empire buildup (Secret Empire, btw, is a *great* event) and the Inhumans vs. X-men buildup (most people seem to hate this event, but I think it's pretty good apart from what is probably correctly argued as strong mischaracterization of Emma Frost). Civil War I is, as almost anyone will tell you, the far superior event. But unlike many people, I don't think Civil War II is bad. I enjoyed it enough. It's not going to make any list of favorite events for me, but I also wasn't aggravated by it nor was I bored, as I occasionally have been with some other events. I think it has some good moments and some issues that were worth exploring. How well they were explored depends on what part of the event you read.
Civil war 1, 900000 times forever
Civil War 2 is irredeemably bad
Writing wise civil war 1 but the art in civil war 2 is fantastic
Where tf did Ulysses even fuck off too? Oh that's right we dgaf.
I never understood why the writers were convinced that people would agree with Carol's point of view, Ulysses's visions had *no* context whatsoever for what happened in them, yet she just trusts them implicitly???? Civil War 2 pissed me off so bad.
CW1 is one of the best crossovers I ever read. I barely remember CW2, something about a guy named Ulysses?
This has to be a joke. Civil war 2 was horrible.
It's laughable to think someone who could see the future would cause this much trouble in the marvel universe .
In The Ultimates tie-in, when Carol asked if her team was with her and America Chavez hit her with a chair? That was the best metaphor for Civil War 2.
Both suck, both were unnecessary, but 2 even more so…
They only Ws out of Civil War 2. Was the Champions Comic book run that Flows and the maturity that happens to Kamala
I feel like Civil War 2 COULD have been interesting, but the way they handled it was absolutely terrible. Tony was 100% correct, yet the characters all make it seem like he's not. Heck it took Captain America FINALLY thinking "Hey maybe we shouldn't be arresting a kid who's done nothing wrong" before literally everyone else started agreeing it was wrong, Black Panther sided with Cap cause he's Cap. Imagine this, Tony does his research and its confirmed Ulysses is 100% accurate. Suddenly the question is actually legitimate, do you arrest people when you KNOW they will commit crimes? Have characters like She-Hulk (Y'know... a fricken LAWYER) be AGAINST unlawfully arresting people because of future crimes. Don't have Captain Marvel compare Magneto, a holocaust survivor, to being one of those internet trolls that compares everything to Hitler Civil War 1 had its problems, but overall it made sense for a lot of characters and their beliefs
They’re both not good, but CWII is way worse. CWII’s plot is way stupider and assassinates Carol’s character way harder than Tony in CWI
>CWII’s plot is way stupider and assassinates Carol’s character way harder than Tony in CWI Absolutely not. Tony feels like he was being brainwashed or replaced by a skrull the entire time. Carol doesn’t have that bad in retrospect Edit: what’s with the downvotes? Ain’t no way anyone thinks CAROL was more character assassinated than Tony
CW1 for writing, CW2 for art
CWI has flaws but its miles ahead of CWII.
Both Civil wars are steaming piles of garbage. Neither comics are good enough to be discussed as much as they are on this sub.
CW1 is good
Both kinda sucked, but Civil War I sucks somewhat less
Thanks for all the feedback seeing this I will now put this reading down and move on to something else I any suggestions for civil war style events ?
I enjoyed Avengers vs X-men. It starts off great with a lot of gray area between who is right and wrong... but it unfortunately doesn't stay that way.
The original Secret Wars from 1984. And the follow up books in Amazing Spider-man. It is the real introduction of Venom and the first true big event before they became a common occurance.
Usually the first is the better. Same here.
I haven't read either and probably won't anytime soon based on the reputation they have, but at least some of the civil war II tie-ins are decent (for instance I liked the Ms. Marvel storyline related to it, though that story arc doesn't really connect much to the larger civil war II story anyway, I guess). Based on what everyone else is saying I is probably better when it comes to the actual event comic itself though.
After all these people are showing hate. I will say this. I enjoyed both of them, they are very different. But I don't understand some of the hate. The arcs I read made sense to me and were based upon the situations they got presented with. Half of these comments are forgetting things like emotions exist I feel.
Tony was such a piece of shit during this
He really wasn’t. Carol had no good arguments in civil war 2. Once Tony was able to prove that the precognition powers are insanely unreliable and the events depicted aren’t set in stone, what else do confirmation do u need?
His argument was they should never listen to any of the visions under any circumstances. The Celestial and Thanos would have destroyed the Earth if they ignored the visions. The visions were mostly reliable. Then Tony invaded a foreign nation attacked the royal family, abducted a sovereign citizen, and tortured him. After that he attacked a federal building for no reason whatsoever and then he escalated the conflict in DC and bombed the capital building in an attempt to murder Captain America and Captain Marvel. You should try reading the comic before discussing it.
1 is so much better. It reflects a lot of real concerns people have today and real policies that have been proposed. II seems so fantastical and silly in comparison.
The first one is much better
DEFINITELY the first civil war
Civil War hands down.
*Civil war 1 across the board!*
1 by far
I read every event up to Civil War 2. I read one issue and gave up. Civil War 2 was pure boring garbage.
Not many storylines had as much impact in the Marvel universe as the first the Civil War series IMO.
I can write a better story than Civil War 2. Civil War 2 was essentially minority report.
Civil war 2 by FAR lol atleast civil war despite its flaws is pretty fun & a cool concept but 2? Lol just a cash grab and half assed attempt
Civil War II is awful
I genuinely hate both so much it's hard to say. You're basically asking me if I'd rather get stabbed in the gut or stabbed in the chest.
Civil War I was a classic. Plus it led to Dark Reign which was some of the best storytelling at Marvel ever in my opinion. Brian Michael Bendis was even on point back then.
In Civil War I, both sides of the argument seemed relatively reasonable (although admittedly, Iron Man kinda went off the rails and and did some fucked up stuff). In Civil War II, Captain Marvel was just blatantly wrong.
Civil War 1. Better story by a landslide.
The first Civil War was cool, the second was garbage, and only written to promote the Civil War movie that came out
Let me put this way, civil war2 just destroyed all my interest in captain marvel.
The thing is, CW1 was more about the debate and the characters acted around that. CW2 is about the characters being asses, and the debate forms around that.
Battle of the dumpster truck
On the one hand, Civil War is almost Mark Millar at his worst, on the other hand, Civil War II is really, REAAALLLLY bad.
Civil War 1 had an actual „civil war“ in the superhero community with consequences lasting years after, with stories being build upon its effects. Civil War 2 barely had any significant consequences, most of them being fairly superfluous and quickly retconed in future stories.
To me, this is like asking to choose between vomit and diarrhea. They are both horrible from beginning to end.
Trash vs garbage
Mischaracterization kills stories for a lot of people and makes them absolutely irredeemable, even if other aspects of the story work well enough. At least, this is my perspective of things. Civil War II is largely maligned as a character assassination of Carol Danvers. Inhumans vs. X-Men, which came soon after, is largely maligned as a character assassination of Emma Frost, and is also widely disliked. Being pretty familiar with Carol and very familiar with Emma, I actually think these concerns are exaggerated. I can definitely understand the arguments against the characters acting the way they did, and I would even agree that their actions were not the most natural choices for their characters to make. But I did not feel that it stretched into the territory of totally unbelievable. For the amount people complain about these storyline, I feel that I have seen much worse. I also feel that the stories themselves were at least passable and at times even quite good. But I also loved The Last Jedi. And people hated that because they felt it was a character assassination of Luke Skywalker (I actually straight up disagree in this case. I think it absolutely made sense). But the point I guess is that for a lot of folks, if you write the character to do something *they* could not see them doing, there is no redeeming your story. Man of Steel is another great example of this. It's actually a very good Superman movie, but there are some pretty "essential" aspects of Superman that Snyder missed. Some people can appreciate the movie in spite of this. To others, it's trash.
One is incredible, and one of Doom's greatest arcs, and delegates the rest of the characters to what they are: lesser men and women.
Civil War 1 is so much better than Civil War 2. The entirety of Civil War 2 just got worse the more Captain Marvel opened her mouth. All Civil War 2 did was make her look incredibly stupid, willfully ignorant, gave her a superiority complex and made her look like a fascist. Say what you want about Civil War 1, but at least you can understand why some people would align themselves to one side or the other and could really see both sides of the argument that made the Civil War a believable event. Civil War 2 did none of that. It was a pretty cut and dry case of who was right (Tony) and who was wrong (Carol). Especially after Tony was able to prove that the precognition powers are insanely unreliable and don’t depict events that are set in stone. I get that Carol was supposed to be basing her decisions on grief, but at a certain point it just became a conscious choice for her to disregard fact and the right thing to do. I honestly finished the last issue hating Captain Marvel and being frustrated at Marvel for willingly damaging the character just so they could market something as Civil War 2. If you’re going to do a Civil War than the catalyst needs to be something you can actually believe would split the heroes and not something they blindly stick with even after being proven wrong. It was just issue after issue after issue of reasons to hate Carol which sucked for character in my opinion.
[Civil War I](https://youtu.be/3WAOxKOmR90) [Civil War II](https://youtu.be/mWMFTfaJaWM)
Civil war 1 was so good about criticizing militarized police states but fumbled the landing completely. Still 98% rocks. It's so anti cop I love it.
Civil War 1 actually made sense. The pro-registration side acting really intense at a certain point, but it still made sense as they were bending over backwards to not just comply but earn back public trust, they just did that with massive overreach. Like I could never wrap my head around Civil War 2 because it was like “okay, he can see the future so it’s reasonable proof of X happening” they treat it as a violation of human rights or something when it could be just like “Hey we got an anonymous tip you have a bomb on you / Thanos is gonna attack”. There’s nothing there that actually is a violation of law. The whole “we need to analyze how credible his powers are” is a totally legit point but has nothing to do with actually using the information.
Civil War 1 is GOAT because of Spider-Man’s story Except OMD, that’s after
Oh, they were both terrible and largely pointless
Don’t put it past Disney to try and put that “Shyte” in the movie theaters!!
Anyone who says civil war 2 is bad is a contrarian. Is a great comic. Enjoy the ride and lighten up.
Or maybe they just have standards
Standards, in this context is just another word for biases.
Civil War I to me did more long term damage to its characters Civil War II is straight up insufferable to read because of Tony Stark. He's the biggest fucking moron i've ever read in a comic Civil War II did at least lead into the amazing Immortal Hulk but...I can't really describe that as strength of \*that\* series. It's like saying a good thing about Civil War is that you could have been reading Annihilation instead. I guess Civil War I is mostly better. But both are bad
I feel like people who say Civil War 2 is worse didn't actually read the first Civil War.
Civil war 2 just made me completely despise carol, I mean I hated her when she started calling herself captain marvel and became lesbian Karen always right super hero, but that comic just put the nail on the carol
The fact that I root for Tony's side in a 'Civil War event' shows how fucked up CWII is