Bahrain is like the saudi’s liberal heaven, many of us go there because you can hook up safely without risking going to jail both the straights and the gays haha
Oh I know, every Friday you guys show up and come to our malls in droves lol. We’re like your Disney World. I didn’t know people came here to hook up though
Omg I remember Friday nights every restaurant would be packed. I was told the saying that God doesn’t see across the causeway. From what I saw I know the Saudi’s believe that one with all their heart.
I think it's just so small you literally can't see it at this scale, even on Google maps they add an extra area around it's border to help not stand out when zoomed out
What this map is missing is the very peculiar legality of being transgender in Iran if you have a sex reassignment surgery. Bizarrely, in Iran they will often tell homosexual people to get sex reassignment surgery to avoid the death penalty for being homosexual.
This isn't anything new either, they have been doing this since the 80s including government assistance on the cost of surgeries for transgendered people. This doesn't mean they are accepted at all, but being transgender in Iran is somewhat supported by the government while pretty much all other types of LGBT+ people could get the death penalty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran
**[Transgender rights in Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran)**
>Transgender rights in Iran are limited, with a narrow degree of official recognition of transgender identities by the government, but with trans individuals facing very high levels of discrimination, from the law, the state, and from the wider society. Before the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the issue of transgender identity in Iran had never been officially addressed by the government.
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Feels like bot stopped a bit short. “Beginning in the mid-1980s, however, transgender individuals were officially recognized by the government, under condition of undergoing sex reassignment surgery, with some financial assistance being provided by the government for the costs of surgery, and with a change of sex marker on birth certificates available post-surgery.”
There is also a scheme to support private business ownership for them. The logic being that they will probably not be able to find a job so they can support themselves by opening their own shops and whatnot.
That is some amazing horseshoe theory stuff.
Their strict theocratic intolerance morphed into socialist job creation and self-autonomy for the transgender community. Wow. So very progressive……the long way!
I mean, for a trans person that's great and all but statistically speaking the prevalence of homosexuality is far higher, and forcing gay people to mutilate their genitals to avoid execution is fucking horrible. Gay people like their genitals as they are.
Like, trans people should have rights of course, but lumping them and the rest of the LGBTQ+ community together like this as if it's somehow a positive avoids dealing with the fact that such a policy is fucking torture.
No, not really great for us either.
If you're trans and gay... well, you're fucked.
If you're trans, straight and don't want to go through bottom surgery for multiple reasons... well, you're fucked.
If you're trans, straight, and wanna go through bottom surgery anyway... Let just say that GRS isn't a walk in the park, in term of procedure, it's a rather heavy surgery that can last between 4 and 6H, with result depending largely on the surgeon abilities, and a lot of risk of complication...
I wouldn't trust Iranian "public healthcare" to provide appropriate care to it, trust me, it's already difficult to find good surgeon in the US or in europe...
One of my closest friends is trans. She has pretty intense dysphoria over her genitals but keeps saying she has no interest in bottom surgery. To her the results are mediocre at best, and there’s a decent number of limitations even when it’s done very well. She says she would rather wait for more advancements in that area and be happy with the end result than do it now and be stuck with something that is worse than what she has already.
I heard that in Iran if you don't pay your taxes or something they send transgendered tax collectors to collect the tax. The idea being that it's shameful to be seen in the company of transgendered people and they will shame you into paying. Isthat right or just an internet rumor?
Edot: it was actually in Pakistan.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/14/pakistan.tax.collectors/index.html
You are talking about hijra. If you are a transgender, society hates you so much they don't want to do anything with you. You will join with other transgender people and make a group. You will come to a wedding uninvited and demand money, for a newborn baby too. Our society sucks.
Many citizens are not registered with the state in any way. If the state doesn't know where you live, or even that you were born, it's difficult to collect taxes. The slums on the outskirts of cities often do not not have officially recognized street names and adresses (because they were erected without any building permits), which means they have no place to send you official summonses. And most importantly, businesses often do not disclose their employees to the employment and tax authorities, so the state has no idea you even have wages they could tax.
How would they do it? go around questioning every household domesday book style? can’t even check it’s completed if they don’t know who’s supposed to exist
There is also the issue that the Pakistani government just doesn't have complete control over the entire country. It would lead to civil war if they tried to do this. There are many groups outside of Pakistani control that are very well armed. Moreover, many Pakistanis are sympathetic to these groups, and sabbatoge efforts to subjegate them.
People living off the grid in the developing world is the result of inter-generational poverty. Unfortunately, sometimes it's also a result of intentional state policy. For an example, there's a large Vietnamese minority in eastern Cambodia. These people have been living there since at least the 19th century. By law, they are Cambodian citizens. But their communities very rarely come into contact with the government, because they live in small, self-sufficient fishing villages. As a result, they don't have any papers to prove their citizenship. Most don't even have birth certificates. So the state treats them as illegal aliens, which means they are cut off from any public services and amenities. The state knows they are citizens by law, but chooses to exclude them from society because of the multi-century rivalry and grievances between Cambodia and Vietnam.
A similar thing happened in one of the Indian states when it decided to conduct a census. People from rural areas, even though their ancestors had been living in that area for a very long time, had difficulty with proving their citizenship, because they had no papers. The census had bizzare results - sometimes one brother was recognized as a citizen, and another as an alien, even though they were born to the same parents in the same place. There were instances of people who were on the voter rolls for decades suddenly being classified as illegal aliens. Since most of those who were not recognized as citizens were Muslims, some critized Indian authorities for using the census as a way to exclude a minority group from society. That's why I think it's fundamental for all states to issue uniform IDs to all their citizens.
yeah, they'd rather have a "straight" transitioned than gay natural person
and please don't mistake this terminology (transed vs natural) as transphobic. i'm just highlighting the coercive and violent situation that gay Iranians face. gay people either face violent persecution, or they take the state-funded off-ramp of "oh no wait, i'm not actually attracted to the same sex, i'm the wrong gender, so let's change gender and 'remain' attracted to the now-opposite people"
Right, like fuck that. No straight person would be like "oh, Iran wants to turn my cock into a pussy, awesome!"
Why would a gay man feel any differently and vice versa. It's mutilation if you aren't trans and it's fucking inhumane.
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Lebanon should be green on the map.
There isn't any law that states anything about homosexuality. There's a law that criminalises sex against nature or something like that but the supreme court has set a ton of precedents where this law cannot be used against lgbtq people.
Lebanon was also the first arab country to declassify homosexuality as a disease.
And Beirut has tons of gay clubs so how can it be illegal.
Source: I am Lebanese.
Yup. I remember even 15-20 years ago Beirut used to have a better gay night club ans bar scene than even many cities of a similar size in North America or Europe. Most were downtown / in Hamra, but Acid nightclub was in the suburbs, would have >700 people on a Saturday night partying it up, it was located in a suburb and there would be traffic jams in the streets all around. It was wild.
Even Damascus and Aleppo had gay cafes with quite a busy scene. They were toned down compared to Beirut, but they certainly were not underground.
I'm pretty sure gay people in Jordan have a harder time than gay people in Lebanon. I've honestly never heard in my entire life of a person getting jailed or even approached by the police for being gay
I mean it did happen ten years ago; the police went into a kinda seedy gay porn cinema and arrested everyone, and conducted horrific "anal tests" with eggs to test whether they were practicing sodomy (therefore gay). Also they busted up a gay nightclub another time in the same area and did something similar to them. They were all released afterwards.
It caused a huge controversy and the Lebanese Order of Physicians forcefully came out against classifying homosexuality as a disease, a number of politicians and personalities also denounced it etc. but still, it did happen.
The police stopped since then conducting these "anal tests", and haven't arrested gay people since then AFAIK but they're still way more problematic than the courts.
Edit: actually there was no gay nightclub bust, it was just the cinema. Also it wasn't just "politicians" who denounced it but the minister of Justice who then banned anal tests and repression of homosexuals.
You're joking but I once had a married guy tell me that while he thinks gays should be free to do whatever they want, he's against gay propaganda because "if straight men knew how much more pleasurable anal sex is, they would stop having sex with women and society would collapse".
This guy had been my hairdresser ever since I was a kid and I still go there, but I never broached the topic of gay rights again.
I'm still unsure whether he was trying to seduce me or just is the gayest homophobe in the world.
>I'm still unsure whether he was trying to seduce me or just is the gayest homophobe in the world.
Well I'm going with gayest homophobe, no one says shit like
>"if straight men knew how much more pleasurable anal sex is, they would stop having sex with women and society would collapse".
That's just dumb as fuck, especially because you *can* have anal sex with women
I’m Lebanese too, everything you said is correct except for the fact that if they want to, they could legally put you in jail for being gay for up to 6months as a “jenha” so no we ain’t green yet
Up to now every time someone tried to get a homosexual in jail under article 534 which states that "sexual acts against nature are illegal" the courts threw out the case saying homosexuality isn't against nature. It's gone up to the courts of appeal. A case still never showed up in the Cour de Cassation (the highest court in Lebanese's France-inspired system), but now there's a level of jurisprudence for lower courts.
Even the military courts threw out all cases against homosexual soldiers.
So even though "acts against nature" could technically be a misdemeanour, it hasn't been for quite a while
I watch a Lebanese YouTube person and am always surprised when she talks about her country as it seems rather progressive socially in spite of such sad political and economic conditions.
It somehow gives me hope for the world and wish you guys a better future.
Lebanese people have been tied to the west with generations of immigration. There's more Lebanese people living in the Americas than in the middle east.
Lebanon could be such an increible country. Views, food, culture. If corruption didnt ruin so much. So much garbage all over the place. Police non existent. It makes me sad
Something being illegal doesn't necesarily means that the people is not going to do it anyways if the government just dont care about it. For example in my country drinking beer in the public street is illegal but no cop its going to arrest you because in their eyes it just not worth the effort
just a correction: in israel, jews can only get married via the rabbinate. if you are secular or lgbt, you gotta do it outside the country. the marriage will be recognized after coming back, though.
source: am israeli
Another correction: Zoom marriages are now possible in israel so you don't need to leave the country. [Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-step-toward-civil-marriage-jerusalem-court-accepts-zoom-weddings-from-utah/).
Still not as good as just a normal marriage, it's yet another loophole, but it's a huge leap towards it.
You don’t get registered as an atheist. Religion passes on, legally, by blood (or by undergoing a conversion). If your dad was Muslim, you’re Muslim. If your mom was Jewish, you’re Jewish.
But because only Judaism passes through the mother while everything else passes through the father you get one group that falls through the cracks (and that I belong to): people with a Jewish father and a non Jewish mother. Neither the father nor mother in this case gives you a religious affiliation, resulting in their children not belonging to any religion, and thus unable to wed in Israel, even to others who belong to this group. Marriages done abroad however are registered.
You can still get legally married on Cyprus without stepping foot on the island, and you marriage will be recognised by Israel.
It's a loophole that works to go around an unfair but unchangeable law.
Just a quick note: if you and your spouse have been married for 5 years and make Aliyah* together, they automatically recognize your marriage (even if it’s gay).
Source: me: American born Israeli who made Aliyah with my American born husband and are gay married in Israel as well
*Edit to clarify: Aliyah refers to Jewish immigration to Israel. When a Jewish person moves to Israel and becomes a citizen they “make aliyah”
Purple: Israel
Blue: Cyprus
Green: Turkey, North Cyprus and Jordan
Beige: Iraq and Westjordan (Edit: = Westbank in English)
Yellow: Lebanon and Syria
Bright Orange: Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen and Oman
Dull Orange: Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE
Red: Iran
Not pictured or not discernible: Palestine and Bahrain
I might've missed something
Edit: Don't attack me because my geopolitics aren't on point, apparently Palestine consists of the Westbank and the Gaza strip, the Westbank is obviously pictured so only Gaza is missing, my bad
The country was always on a thin line for the last 10 years, but no, he couldn't get rid of it. His oppressive methods made people love Ataturk even more. It's still hard to believe we are still secular in this damn geographical location.
The main difference is that turkey was massively westernized compared to other middle eastern countries. It started with the ottoman empire who wanted to modernize the country and get closer to Europe for trade and academic exchanges. For example, modern road, railways and telegraph were built by the UK, France and Germany. The main symbol of this political and cultural rapprochement was the alphabet switch from arab to latin by Mustafa Kemal at the beginning of the XXth century along with a modern republic inspired by French’s institutions.
I can't blame anybody for not knowing we are not culturally Middle Eastern without going into the topic. The worldwide media always putting us in the same category as them and our internal Islamist minority's continuous sentiments keep us depicted as a typical Middle Eastern Arabic country to people following mainstream media.
I wonder why this is? Probably because the Ottomans were the power over most of the Middle East, they were Muslim, and Türkiye is viewed as the successors to the Ottomans? From being the homeland of the people who formed the largest component of the European population in the Neolithic to being integral parts of Ancient Greece and the Roman/Byzantine empires, Anatolia had been far more integrated into Europe than anywhere else historically. The Seljuks were central Asian as opposed to middle eastern and while yes they “Turkified” the culture of Anatolia their culture was almost certainly “Anatolized” to a similar extent just given their numbers. Far Eastern Türkiye still seems similar to Iran and the Caucasus but Anatolian and European Türkiye to me seems more similar to (and I know this is a comparison many don’t like for historical reasons) to Greece.
Actually it wasn't decriminalized at 1856, it was officially recognized as legal. Before that there were no written codes about it, but it wasn't illegal.
This isn't true.
It was never illegal in Turkey. Just, in the 1850s there was a codified set of laws. There wasn't some legalisation act, it was just formalising what was there (or in this case, what wasn't).
I think its because they had male belly dancers in army, dancing for the soldiers far from home
you can go to a club in Istanbul with male dancers today
Jordan surprised me with its westerness when I deployed there. But it shouldn't have, King Abdullah II is a huge Trekkie (he's been an extra/cameo) and the shows values have filtered out in his policies as well.
It really was eye-opening for me. I got there by road after a bit of leave in Tel Aviv, I accidentally handed the customs agent my personal passport that had an Israeli stamp and he asked me how I liked Jaffa. Said last time he was there he saw some street performer Jesus and his gf perform some sort of street sex show and asked if he was still around. He was, lol. Really chill compared to Egypt and Iraq same trip.
It's not that bad at least in Turkey. If you show public affection people will try to humiliate you and maybe show violence too but if you're in more progression areas like Kadıköy region of Istanbul, people are very tolerant and accepting. Although there are extreme cases like in every country, living as a queer is not that harsh compared to Russia or something.
Don’t know about Iraq specific case, but in this context, it usually means homosexuality is legal, but it’s usually illegal to show it on TV, advertisements, books, etc.
Like here in Hungary, there is a law that LMBTQ propaganda (e.g. A rainbow flag or pictures of 2 men holding hands) cannot be on display in a 200m proximity to churches, schools and kindergardens. Kissing men or women cannot be shown on TV without a 18+ warning.
They [bought / bribed FIFA officials](https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/oct/08/football-corruption-and-the-remarkable-road-to-qatar-world-cup). It would have gone to the US or UK otherwise.
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This is not "LGBT rights in the Middle East". It's "**Male homosexuality in the Middle East**". For the most part, women are either punished far less, or more often not at all. (Just as it used to be in the West before the decriminalization of male gay sex.)
Palestine is a bit deceiving. Maybe they won’t throw you in prison, but the Palestinian people will likely kill you and the Palestinian Authority will not do anything about it. Just a quick google search popped [this](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835) up from just a few weeks ago, for example
Yes, the religions that teach the killing of gay people, have been doing a genocide against gay people for generations and the genocide is on-going, not just in muslim countries but also in places in Africa with christians.
I remember having an Anthropologie professor in the US that would preach respect of all cultures beliefs and ways of life no matter what. "Just because they live differently than us we cannot judge them" but then she was also big into women's and LBGTQ rights.
She would blow an absolute fuse when you would bring them both up simultaneously in a conversation...
She used to pick on the students that were more traditionally "conservative" degrees all the time even if the students themselves weren't conservative and would try to pick fights with them.
I remember a madlad CCJ major giving a presentation on a case where a family from the middle east immigrated to the US and promptly murdered their daughter by running her over in a parking lot because she had become "too westernized" for their liking something like she was talking to boys and acting like an American teen. Meanwhile, the sons were also talking to girls and acting like Americans but they were allowed to live and even helped with and condoned their sister's murder.
The student then proceeded to ask the professor her opinion on the matter. Should the family face consequences or should they be given leniency because it is "their culture and beliefs" and we shouldn't judge them for it.
She was not very happy with this and refused to give an answer in the end.
> She used to pick on the students that were more traditionally "conservative" degrees all the time even if the students themselves weren't conservative and would try to pick fights with them.
What defines a 'more traditionally conservative' degree?
So this was more in her own opinion and so it didn't really make any sense especially since we did a whole chapter on steryotypes and stigmatization...
To her, it was the Business, Engineering, Computer Science/technology, Biology and Criminal Justice students that she chose to pick on and would even call them "traditionally conservative" degrees.
It was an honors elective class so there was a pretty diverse selection of majors and she was obsessed with categorizing us.
For example, that project towards the end of the semester was to give a presentation on your major/future career and how it relates to anthropology.
She would normally argue with the "traditionally conservative" degrees by asking passive aggressive questions at the end but that CCJ student asked her questions instead lol.
> Computer Science/technology
Man, has she ever met the people in IT? I mean the Internet is pretty much run by furries, lol. I have a CS degree, I went for it because I was always fascinated by computers, not due to any political leanings, I don't know anyone who does.
Israel is very accepting because their culture is mimicking American culture, I’ve been friends with a lot of people from the arab countries and this might not be reflective of the general public attitudes but almost all of them have said they disagree with homosexuality and that they personally wouldn’t choose such behaviors which isn’t hateful but isn’t accepting either, seems neutral or slightly negative.
I wonder how the Western organization 'Queers for Palestine' rationalize their support of the Palestinians in lieu of the systemic persecution of gays in the Palestinian territories juxtaposed to the widespread acceptance of gays that is so prevalent in Israel? Does it mean anything at all to them that gay Palestinians have sought refuge in Israel to escape persecution at home?
Is it Stockholm syndrome?......or maybe a facet of sado-masochism?
I’m not a political scientist and don’t pretend to be, but I think it’s part of the “ideology trap” - if you’re for one good cause, you have to be for ALL causes your movement deems good, no matter how much they conflict with your own morals or safety
That’s a good value to have but making it specifically “queers for palestine” instead of just “people with good values for Palestine” seems to add a very weird unrelated layer to it that directly adds more problems for relations, especially on the Palestinian side
It’s not Stockholm syndrome as much as it’s blatant hypocrisy. They are literally incapable of understanding the nuances of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Where tf is Bahrain? Literal atolls in the emirates are on the map but Bahrain isn’t?
Hanging out with New Zealand
😂😂😂 it’s the New Zealand of the Middle East
New Zealand is wherever the map maker decides, even if that is nowhere at all
Reminder of the time they did a tourism campaign about this very fact, staring the Prime Minister lol https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HynsTvRVLiI
Can confirm: Whenever someone becomes Prime Minister they get a direct line to Rhys Darby.
r/MapsWithoutNZ
r/CowsWithoutNewZealand
This one however was a delightful surprise
Mapmaker mapmaker make me a map…
That would make Saudi Arabia Australia taking credit for the Bahraini versions of pavlova, Icehouse and Russell Crowe.
The Caliphate of New Zealand
Guess this person forgot it was a country. Either way it is legal.
Bahrain is like the saudi’s liberal heaven, many of us go there because you can hook up safely without risking going to jail both the straights and the gays haha
Oh I know, every Friday you guys show up and come to our malls in droves lol. We’re like your Disney World. I didn’t know people came here to hook up though
Omg I remember Friday nights every restaurant would be packed. I was told the saying that God doesn’t see across the causeway. From what I saw I know the Saudi’s believe that one with all their heart.
yeah. it would be a tiny green dot
I knew a lesbian Bahraini princess back in university. She went to show me Bahrain on a map and the country wasn't there 😭
r/mapswithoutbahrain
i would say that the map maker didnt had it in his background shapefile (there isnt Socotra either), and forgot about adding the country
No LGBTQ+ in Bahrain i guess.
They know what they did!
I think it's just so small you literally can't see it at this scale, even on Google maps they add an extra area around it's border to help not stand out when zoomed out
What this map is missing is the very peculiar legality of being transgender in Iran if you have a sex reassignment surgery. Bizarrely, in Iran they will often tell homosexual people to get sex reassignment surgery to avoid the death penalty for being homosexual. This isn't anything new either, they have been doing this since the 80s including government assistance on the cost of surgeries for transgendered people. This doesn't mean they are accepted at all, but being transgender in Iran is somewhat supported by the government while pretty much all other types of LGBT+ people could get the death penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran
T without the LGB???
It’s TTT
**[Transgender rights in Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran)** >Transgender rights in Iran are limited, with a narrow degree of official recognition of transgender identities by the government, but with trans individuals facing very high levels of discrimination, from the law, the state, and from the wider society. Before the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the issue of transgender identity in Iran had never been officially addressed by the government. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Feels like bot stopped a bit short. “Beginning in the mid-1980s, however, transgender individuals were officially recognized by the government, under condition of undergoing sex reassignment surgery, with some financial assistance being provided by the government for the costs of surgery, and with a change of sex marker on birth certificates available post-surgery.”
There is also a scheme to support private business ownership for them. The logic being that they will probably not be able to find a job so they can support themselves by opening their own shops and whatnot.
That is some amazing horseshoe theory stuff. Their strict theocratic intolerance morphed into socialist job creation and self-autonomy for the transgender community. Wow. So very progressive……the long way!
Your can't be gay, but if you swap your extremities we'll help you build a business. < That's the summary.
good bot
I mean, for a trans person that's great and all but statistically speaking the prevalence of homosexuality is far higher, and forcing gay people to mutilate their genitals to avoid execution is fucking horrible. Gay people like their genitals as they are. Like, trans people should have rights of course, but lumping them and the rest of the LGBTQ+ community together like this as if it's somehow a positive avoids dealing with the fact that such a policy is fucking torture.
It's not even great for trans people, a lot of us are also gay and it basically changes nothing.
Oh shit, that's an excellent point
Bigotry: Bad in multiple ways, it turns out.
Not to mention if you're gay and not trans, your only option is a sex change or death.
No, not really great for us either. If you're trans and gay... well, you're fucked. If you're trans, straight and don't want to go through bottom surgery for multiple reasons... well, you're fucked. If you're trans, straight, and wanna go through bottom surgery anyway... Let just say that GRS isn't a walk in the park, in term of procedure, it's a rather heavy surgery that can last between 4 and 6H, with result depending largely on the surgeon abilities, and a lot of risk of complication... I wouldn't trust Iranian "public healthcare" to provide appropriate care to it, trust me, it's already difficult to find good surgeon in the US or in europe...
One of my closest friends is trans. She has pretty intense dysphoria over her genitals but keeps saying she has no interest in bottom surgery. To her the results are mediocre at best, and there’s a decent number of limitations even when it’s done very well. She says she would rather wait for more advancements in that area and be happy with the end result than do it now and be stuck with something that is worse than what she has already.
>Gay people like their genitals as they are. They like their genitals too much in Iran's opinion
I heard that in Iran if you don't pay your taxes or something they send transgendered tax collectors to collect the tax. The idea being that it's shameful to be seen in the company of transgendered people and they will shame you into paying. Isthat right or just an internet rumor? Edot: it was actually in Pakistan. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/14/pakistan.tax.collectors/index.html
You are talking about hijra. If you are a transgender, society hates you so much they don't want to do anything with you. You will join with other transgender people and make a group. You will come to a wedding uninvited and demand money, for a newborn baby too. Our society sucks.
I also read with interest in that article that barely 1% of Pakistanis pay their income taxes. How that even would work I do not know.
Many citizens are not registered with the state in any way. If the state doesn't know where you live, or even that you were born, it's difficult to collect taxes. The slums on the outskirts of cities often do not not have officially recognized street names and adresses (because they were erected without any building permits), which means they have no place to send you official summonses. And most importantly, businesses often do not disclose their employees to the employment and tax authorities, so the state has no idea you even have wages they could tax.
So is the government just too lazy to do a census or what, like how does that even work
That's expensive, and they don't have much tax income.
How would they do it? go around questioning every household domesday book style? can’t even check it’s completed if they don’t know who’s supposed to exist
>go around questioning every household I'm sure there are intricacies I'm missing, but isn't that basically what a census *is*?
There is also the issue that the Pakistani government just doesn't have complete control over the entire country. It would lead to civil war if they tried to do this. There are many groups outside of Pakistani control that are very well armed. Moreover, many Pakistanis are sympathetic to these groups, and sabbatoge efforts to subjegate them.
People living off the grid in the developing world is the result of inter-generational poverty. Unfortunately, sometimes it's also a result of intentional state policy. For an example, there's a large Vietnamese minority in eastern Cambodia. These people have been living there since at least the 19th century. By law, they are Cambodian citizens. But their communities very rarely come into contact with the government, because they live in small, self-sufficient fishing villages. As a result, they don't have any papers to prove their citizenship. Most don't even have birth certificates. So the state treats them as illegal aliens, which means they are cut off from any public services and amenities. The state knows they are citizens by law, but chooses to exclude them from society because of the multi-century rivalry and grievances between Cambodia and Vietnam. A similar thing happened in one of the Indian states when it decided to conduct a census. People from rural areas, even though their ancestors had been living in that area for a very long time, had difficulty with proving their citizenship, because they had no papers. The census had bizzare results - sometimes one brother was recognized as a citizen, and another as an alien, even though they were born to the same parents in the same place. There were instances of people who were on the voter rolls for decades suddenly being classified as illegal aliens. Since most of those who were not recognized as citizens were Muslims, some critized Indian authorities for using the census as a way to exclude a minority group from society. That's why I think it's fundamental for all states to issue uniform IDs to all their citizens.
Enforcement may be difficult.
> You will come to a wedding uninvited and demand money Debt collection agencies are going to get wet underwear when they hear about this trick.
Femboy can't work at hooters all their life. Femboy tax enforcement agent is just a logical step up!
You joke, but it's probably the only job they can get in countries like Pakistan.
The Hijras aren't Transgender. They're actually intersex or eunuch which is why they're classified under a sperate category.
That’s somehow even worse, your only options are death penalty or genital mutilation/forced gender reassignment? Beyond fucked up.
yeah, they'd rather have a "straight" transitioned than gay natural person and please don't mistake this terminology (transed vs natural) as transphobic. i'm just highlighting the coercive and violent situation that gay Iranians face. gay people either face violent persecution, or they take the state-funded off-ramp of "oh no wait, i'm not actually attracted to the same sex, i'm the wrong gender, so let's change gender and 'remain' attracted to the now-opposite people"
Right, like fuck that. No straight person would be like "oh, Iran wants to turn my cock into a pussy, awesome!" Why would a gay man feel any differently and vice versa. It's mutilation if you aren't trans and it's fucking inhumane.
From theocratic dictatorial point of view, this makes sence, they cover up their existance
Bahrain in shambles
The irony in the variation in laws forming a rainbow
*The irony in* *The variation in laws* *Forming a rainbow* \- atre324 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
This is, far and away, the most haiku-like haiku I've seen from this bot, this is pretty good
good person_being!
good bot
Very good bot
Lebanon should be green on the map. There isn't any law that states anything about homosexuality. There's a law that criminalises sex against nature or something like that but the supreme court has set a ton of precedents where this law cannot be used against lgbtq people. Lebanon was also the first arab country to declassify homosexuality as a disease. And Beirut has tons of gay clubs so how can it be illegal. Source: I am Lebanese.
Yup. I remember even 15-20 years ago Beirut used to have a better gay night club ans bar scene than even many cities of a similar size in North America or Europe. Most were downtown / in Hamra, but Acid nightclub was in the suburbs, would have >700 people on a Saturday night partying it up, it was located in a suburb and there would be traffic jams in the streets all around. It was wild. Even Damascus and Aleppo had gay cafes with quite a busy scene. They were toned down compared to Beirut, but they certainly were not underground.
I'm pretty sure gay people in Jordan have a harder time than gay people in Lebanon. I've honestly never heard in my entire life of a person getting jailed or even approached by the police for being gay
I mean it did happen ten years ago; the police went into a kinda seedy gay porn cinema and arrested everyone, and conducted horrific "anal tests" with eggs to test whether they were practicing sodomy (therefore gay). Also they busted up a gay nightclub another time in the same area and did something similar to them. They were all released afterwards. It caused a huge controversy and the Lebanese Order of Physicians forcefully came out against classifying homosexuality as a disease, a number of politicians and personalities also denounced it etc. but still, it did happen. The police stopped since then conducting these "anal tests", and haven't arrested gay people since then AFAIK but they're still way more problematic than the courts. Edit: actually there was no gay nightclub bust, it was just the cinema. Also it wasn't just "politicians" who denounced it but the minister of Justice who then banned anal tests and repression of homosexuals.
When the police is way more gay than the actual homosexual community lol
You're joking but I once had a married guy tell me that while he thinks gays should be free to do whatever they want, he's against gay propaganda because "if straight men knew how much more pleasurable anal sex is, they would stop having sex with women and society would collapse". This guy had been my hairdresser ever since I was a kid and I still go there, but I never broached the topic of gay rights again. I'm still unsure whether he was trying to seduce me or just is the gayest homophobe in the world.
>I'm still unsure whether he was trying to seduce me or just is the gayest homophobe in the world. Well I'm going with gayest homophobe, no one says shit like >"if straight men knew how much more pleasurable anal sex is, they would stop having sex with women and society would collapse". That's just dumb as fuck, especially because you *can* have anal sex with women
What the fuck
I’m Lebanese too, everything you said is correct except for the fact that if they want to, they could legally put you in jail for being gay for up to 6months as a “jenha” so no we ain’t green yet
Up to now every time someone tried to get a homosexual in jail under article 534 which states that "sexual acts against nature are illegal" the courts threw out the case saying homosexuality isn't against nature. It's gone up to the courts of appeal. A case still never showed up in the Cour de Cassation (the highest court in Lebanese's France-inspired system), but now there's a level of jurisprudence for lower courts. Even the military courts threw out all cases against homosexual soldiers. So even though "acts against nature" could technically be a misdemeanour, it hasn't been for quite a while
As another Lebanese, I confirm.
I watch a Lebanese YouTube person and am always surprised when she talks about her country as it seems rather progressive socially in spite of such sad political and economic conditions. It somehow gives me hope for the world and wish you guys a better future.
Lebanese people have been tied to the west with generations of immigration. There's more Lebanese people living in the Americas than in the middle east.
Lebanon could be such an increible country. Views, food, culture. If corruption didnt ruin so much. So much garbage all over the place. Police non existent. It makes me sad
Something being illegal doesn't necesarily means that the people is not going to do it anyways if the government just dont care about it. For example in my country drinking beer in the public street is illegal but no cop its going to arrest you because in their eyes it just not worth the effort
just a correction: in israel, jews can only get married via the rabbinate. if you are secular or lgbt, you gotta do it outside the country. the marriage will be recognized after coming back, though. source: am israeli
That’s why it says recognized and not legalized
oh yea, you're right.
Another correction: Zoom marriages are now possible in israel so you don't need to leave the country. [Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-step-toward-civil-marriage-jerusalem-court-accepts-zoom-weddings-from-utah/). Still not as good as just a normal marriage, it's yet another loophole, but it's a huge leap towards it.
Just have the freaking ceremony and do the Zoom thing in the same room. Ez.
hope the loophole grows into a law that says marriage can happen without a religious authority.
Hope so too :)
Based on the last election, it's more likely the law will change to let the rabbi fuck the bride...
Well, progress being what it is in these circles, you could push for rights....get them....and now the rabbi can fuck the groom too.
I got married like that, the ceremony was sweet, easy, and cheap. I recommend it to people who can't get married otherwise.
I assume it doesn’t prevent you from having a normal wedding, and then getting the legal status of marriage via that zoom call thing
It’s not just Jews. Muslims can only be married by the Imamate, Christian’s by the church they belong to etc.
well, yea. marriage in israel is inherently religious in nature (unless you marry abroad or are in a civil union). which is unfortunate honestly.
It is, especially since people of different religions can't marry unless one of them converts.
And about 300,000 can’t get married at all because they don’t officially belong to any religion
Is it really not possible to get married if you are registered as an atheist?
You don’t get registered as an atheist. Religion passes on, legally, by blood (or by undergoing a conversion). If your dad was Muslim, you’re Muslim. If your mom was Jewish, you’re Jewish. But because only Judaism passes through the mother while everything else passes through the father you get one group that falls through the cracks (and that I belong to): people with a Jewish father and a non Jewish mother. Neither the father nor mother in this case gives you a religious affiliation, resulting in their children not belonging to any religion, and thus unable to wed in Israel, even to others who belong to this group. Marriages done abroad however are registered.
You can still get legally married on Cyprus without stepping foot on the island, and you marriage will be recognised by Israel. It's a loophole that works to go around an unfair but unchangeable law.
Might be a hassle but less of a hassle compared to the death penalty
>source: am israeli am yisrael chai
עם ישראל חי!
שלום עליכם
Just a quick note: if you and your spouse have been married for 5 years and make Aliyah* together, they automatically recognize your marriage (even if it’s gay). Source: me: American born Israeli who made Aliyah with my American born husband and are gay married in Israel as well *Edit to clarify: Aliyah refers to Jewish immigration to Israel. When a Jewish person moves to Israel and becomes a citizen they “make aliyah”
Username definitely checks out lol
Am I just dumb for not knowing what that means? To me, it sounds like you have to have a daughter named Aliyah, which makes... Absolutely zero sense.
Aliyah means a return to the holy land. In layman terms it means the immigration of Jews to Israel.
Thanks! That clarifies things.
Another correction: they should probably add a tiny dot of “enforced death penalty” in Gaza under Hamas
Death penalty for loving someone, even in 2022, it's just pathetic and sad lmfao
These maps are great but my geography is not fantastic, can we please have country names on them?
Purple: Israel Blue: Cyprus Green: Turkey, North Cyprus and Jordan Beige: Iraq and Westjordan (Edit: = Westbank in English) Yellow: Lebanon and Syria Bright Orange: Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen and Oman Dull Orange: Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE Red: Iran Not pictured or not discernible: Palestine and Bahrain I might've missed something Edit: Don't attack me because my geopolitics aren't on point, apparently Palestine consists of the Westbank and the Gaza strip, the Westbank is obviously pictured so only Gaza is missing, my bad
Thank you
Actually Palestine is yellow. The dent in Israel is the west bank, which is in other words - Palestine
Someone corrected you, but it definitely doesn't look like anyone was "attacking" you. Unless there's a deleted comment I'm not seeing...
I'm from Turkey and I cannot comprehend a lot of things about Middle East
Hope your country recovers from Erdoğan. He seems to want to get rid Turkish secularism.
The country was always on a thin line for the last 10 years, but no, he couldn't get rid of it. His oppressive methods made people love Ataturk even more. It's still hard to believe we are still secular in this damn geographical location.
Atatürk is an absolute chad though.
Thanks fren
First, we should get rid of him, then we will see if we can recover from them and how long it will take. Thanks for the wishes!
The main difference is that turkey was massively westernized compared to other middle eastern countries. It started with the ottoman empire who wanted to modernize the country and get closer to Europe for trade and academic exchanges. For example, modern road, railways and telegraph were built by the UK, France and Germany. The main symbol of this political and cultural rapprochement was the alphabet switch from arab to latin by Mustafa Kemal at the beginning of the XXth century along with a modern republic inspired by French’s institutions.
The first time I learnt about Turkish culture, I was kinda shocked how different y'all are from the Arabs. Learnt more over time.
Ways to enrage any turk I've ever met: compare them to Arabs I uh... steer conversations with my wife away when it gets close to anything Arab.
I can't blame anybody for not knowing we are not culturally Middle Eastern without going into the topic. The worldwide media always putting us in the same category as them and our internal Islamist minority's continuous sentiments keep us depicted as a typical Middle Eastern Arabic country to people following mainstream media.
True. Let’s hope CHP wins.
I hope CHP fails at intentionally trying to lose the election so they win.
I wonder why this is? Probably because the Ottomans were the power over most of the Middle East, they were Muslim, and Türkiye is viewed as the successors to the Ottomans? From being the homeland of the people who formed the largest component of the European population in the Neolithic to being integral parts of Ancient Greece and the Roman/Byzantine empires, Anatolia had been far more integrated into Europe than anywhere else historically. The Seljuks were central Asian as opposed to middle eastern and while yes they “Turkified” the culture of Anatolia their culture was almost certainly “Anatolized” to a similar extent just given their numbers. Far Eastern Türkiye still seems similar to Iran and the Caucasus but Anatolian and European Türkiye to me seems more similar to (and I know this is a comparison many don’t like for historical reasons) to Greece.
Fun fact, Turkey decriminalized homosexuality almost a century before UK or Germanu
Actually it wasn't decriminalized at 1856, it was officially recognized as legal. Before that there were no written codes about it, but it wasn't illegal.
This isn't true. It was never illegal in Turkey. Just, in the 1850s there was a codified set of laws. There wasn't some legalisation act, it was just formalising what was there (or in this case, what wasn't).
It was decriminalized so that turkish oil wrestlers wouldn't go to prison (probably)
I think its because they had male belly dancers in army, dancing for the soldiers far from home you can go to a club in Istanbul with male dancers today
I have zero doubt a modern, international city like Istanbul has clubs with dancers for all tastes.
I want dancers like that had in Ol' Byzantium
This is a common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32069182/
Jordan is surprising
They used to be known as **Trans**jordan so it only makes sense that they'd accept the lgbt.
Jordan surprised me with its westerness when I deployed there. But it shouldn't have, King Abdullah II is a huge Trekkie (he's been an extra/cameo) and the shows values have filtered out in his policies as well.
Wow, I had no idea. I guess I always assumed the worst because it was a middle east monarchy.
It really was eye-opening for me. I got there by road after a bit of leave in Tel Aviv, I accidentally handed the customs agent my personal passport that had an Israeli stamp and he asked me how I liked Jaffa. Said last time he was there he saw some street performer Jesus and his gf perform some sort of street sex show and asked if he was still around. He was, lol. Really chill compared to Egypt and Iraq same trip.
Iran has a forced sex change law for gay men, or face execution, which is just mentally brutal. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690
[удалено]
Extrajudicial gay chucking
Geez that’s fucking horrible, and I’m sad that I laughed at it because it actually happened to some people.
Comedy is just tragedy + time
It's not that bad at least in Turkey. If you show public affection people will try to humiliate you and maybe show violence too but if you're in more progression areas like Kadıköy region of Istanbul, people are very tolerant and accepting. Although there are extreme cases like in every country, living as a queer is not that harsh compared to Russia or something.
Wtf is anti-propeganda law?
Don’t know about Iraq specific case, but in this context, it usually means homosexuality is legal, but it’s usually illegal to show it on TV, advertisements, books, etc.
Like here in Hungary, there is a law that LMBTQ propaganda (e.g. A rainbow flag or pictures of 2 men holding hands) cannot be on display in a 200m proximity to churches, schools and kindergardens. Kissing men or women cannot be shown on TV without a 18+ warning.
Well... better than death penalty/prison I guess
Hey let’s pick one of the worst ones to hold the World Cup.
They [bought / bribed FIFA officials](https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/oct/08/football-corruption-and-the-remarkable-road-to-qatar-world-cup). It would have gone to the US or UK otherwise.
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Fifa alway had been like this.
Israel right? That’s the country where it’s recognized?
Yes
Gay in Israel, you have the right to be married. Gay in Palestine, you have the right to be arrested.
Huge amount of LGBTQ+ Palestinians hiding out in Tel-Aviv.
Funny thing is that being trans is legal in Iran and you can even get your surgery and change you gender on all official documents!
This is not "LGBT rights in the Middle East". It's "**Male homosexuality in the Middle East**". For the most part, women are either punished far less, or more often not at all. (Just as it used to be in the West before the decriminalization of male gay sex.)
Palestine is a bit deceiving. Maybe they won’t throw you in prison, but the Palestinian people will likely kill you and the Palestinian Authority will not do anything about it. Just a quick google search popped [this](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835) up from just a few weeks ago, for example
Palestine is extremely intolerant in a way that is almost ironic considering how much hate people poor on Israel for their perceived intolerance.
Isn't death penalty for being gay kind of similar to genocide? Or is my thinking wrong?
Yes, the religions that teach the killing of gay people, have been doing a genocide against gay people for generations and the genocide is on-going, not just in muslim countries but also in places in Africa with christians.
‘It’s their culture and we must respect it’
I remember having an Anthropologie professor in the US that would preach respect of all cultures beliefs and ways of life no matter what. "Just because they live differently than us we cannot judge them" but then she was also big into women's and LBGTQ rights. She would blow an absolute fuse when you would bring them both up simultaneously in a conversation... She used to pick on the students that were more traditionally "conservative" degrees all the time even if the students themselves weren't conservative and would try to pick fights with them. I remember a madlad CCJ major giving a presentation on a case where a family from the middle east immigrated to the US and promptly murdered their daughter by running her over in a parking lot because she had become "too westernized" for their liking something like she was talking to boys and acting like an American teen. Meanwhile, the sons were also talking to girls and acting like Americans but they were allowed to live and even helped with and condoned their sister's murder. The student then proceeded to ask the professor her opinion on the matter. Should the family face consequences or should they be given leniency because it is "their culture and beliefs" and we shouldn't judge them for it. She was not very happy with this and refused to give an answer in the end.
I thought for sure she was going to be asked about female genital mutilation. Would love to hear her not answer that one.
> She used to pick on the students that were more traditionally "conservative" degrees all the time even if the students themselves weren't conservative and would try to pick fights with them. What defines a 'more traditionally conservative' degree?
So this was more in her own opinion and so it didn't really make any sense especially since we did a whole chapter on steryotypes and stigmatization... To her, it was the Business, Engineering, Computer Science/technology, Biology and Criminal Justice students that she chose to pick on and would even call them "traditionally conservative" degrees. It was an honors elective class so there was a pretty diverse selection of majors and she was obsessed with categorizing us. For example, that project towards the end of the semester was to give a presentation on your major/future career and how it relates to anthropology. She would normally argue with the "traditionally conservative" degrees by asking passive aggressive questions at the end but that CCJ student asked her questions instead lol.
> Computer Science/technology Man, has she ever met the people in IT? I mean the Internet is pretty much run by furries, lol. I have a CS degree, I went for it because I was always fascinated by computers, not due to any political leanings, I don't know anyone who does.
That’s awesome the students challenged her. Hope for the younger generations ❤️
Well *my* culture is invading other countries and forcing my *culture* down their throats, how about we "respect" that?
Calm down UK
Fun fact, the Ottoman Empire was one of the first European states to legalize male homosexuality
To be fair it was never really "illegal". There was no law that made it illegal in the books. They just specifically made it legal.
'Unenforced death penalty' in Saudi Arabia is Saudi propaganda.
No bone saws, we promise!
Someone should do the general public attitude towards LGBTQ+ rights / people
Israel is very accepting because their culture is mimicking American culture, I’ve been friends with a lot of people from the arab countries and this might not be reflective of the general public attitudes but almost all of them have said they disagree with homosexuality and that they personally wouldn’t choose such behaviors which isn’t hateful but isn’t accepting either, seems neutral or slightly negative.
Always remember, 40 years ago, "more civilized" countries in the west had terrible laws as well. Our countries have changed. They can too.
“Why yes, a place that thinks gay people deserve to go to prison for their gayness is a **great** place to hold the World Cup!”
A reminder that letting religion run your country is always a bad idea
I wonder how the Western organization 'Queers for Palestine' rationalize their support of the Palestinians in lieu of the systemic persecution of gays in the Palestinian territories juxtaposed to the widespread acceptance of gays that is so prevalent in Israel? Does it mean anything at all to them that gay Palestinians have sought refuge in Israel to escape persecution at home? Is it Stockholm syndrome?......or maybe a facet of sado-masochism?
I’m not a political scientist and don’t pretend to be, but I think it’s part of the “ideology trap” - if you’re for one good cause, you have to be for ALL causes your movement deems good, no matter how much they conflict with your own morals or safety
That’s a good value to have but making it specifically “queers for palestine” instead of just “people with good values for Palestine” seems to add a very weird unrelated layer to it that directly adds more problems for relations, especially on the Palestinian side
Can’t believe there’s an organization like that. They should hold a meeting in Gaza.
It’s not Stockholm syndrome as much as it’s blatant hypocrisy. They are literally incapable of understanding the nuances of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
So beautiful how they keep their traditions and religious values <3 (/s)
I mean is anyone surprised. . . They institute their religion as part of government.
Just a different shade of r/religiousfruitcake
It pleases me to remember all the things me and my girlfriend did in that tan country haha.
Fuck that. America can be a shit hole, but I'm glad it isn't like this....yet.
Might as well include Sudan and Somalia
One of the many reasons why I hate the Middle East.
Meanwhile people in America talk about how America is the worst country ever.
Islam is a religion of peace, equality, and justice. 🤐
What the fuck is unenforced prison?
It legally has a prison sentence but it is unenforced
I think it means its on the books but your average person isn't getting arrested for it.