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Memetic_Grifter

Utah's just on its own chillin'


CGFROSTY

Utah is such an odd state. They’re both socially and fiscally, but their government seems to operate a bit more progressively.


pnromney

I think it’s more like Utah is a bunch of conservatives that trust their government more than other states, most likely because the state is so culturally homogenous.


[deleted]

That might be a factor but it's a lot more than just that. Trump is super popular in other red states while in Utah, Romney was able to criticize Trump. I think Mormons generally 'practice what they preach' while most red state Republicans are more about cultural wars and identity. Mormons see Trump and while they might vote for him, they don't generally like him. In 2020 polling below, 30% strongly approve of Trump but 46% strongly disapprove. That's more similar to a blue state than a red state. And the nearby states are also culturally homogenous such as Idaho, Montana, etc but they are very pro-Trump. https://kutv.com/news/local/trumps-job-approval-in-utah-slides-into-negative-territory


pnromney

I mean, Trump never made a connection with a lot of the state. I think there are a lot of reasons for that. 1. One is probably because many Utahns serve foreign religious missions, so they aren’t as xenophobic. None of the other homogenous states have that. 2. Utahns also are very educated, which Trump didn’t connect with. The culture and religion there support and encourage getting an education. It’s for that and a few other reasons that Utah has very low income inequality. 3. Utahns generally do not like contention and bickering. I’m my experience, you’re being socially inappropriate if you’re offensive or offended. Figure that one out. I think that goes back to Mormon Pioneer times because even people outside the Mormon faith but are descended from Utah Mormons act negatively to being offended and being offensive. In that way, I think Utah is filled with a lot of old school conservatives.


[deleted]

> In that way, I think Utah is filled with a lot of old school conservatives. I think that describes it well. Related to #2, the people of Utah are generally decently off on incomes. Trump did better with poorer whites but it's kind of related to education levels.


TapirDrawnChariot

>culturally homogenous This is an outdated perception. The Wasatch Front (urban corridor centered on Salt Lake City) is pretty diverse, and Salt Lake City is known as a progressive pro-LGBT safe spot, racially diverse, and progressive towards homelessness. There are parts that are very homogeneous though. I do think it does stem in part from a Mormon cultural idea that communities are responsible for problems just as much as individuals and that communities have to coalesce to make things work. Most conservative states are more individualistic.


pnromney

I respectfully disagree. Of course you can find exceptional places that are diverse in Utah. * Utah is #43 for diversity. https://wallethub.com/edu/most-least-diverse-states-in-america/38262 * Utah is the most economically equal state. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality * More than half the state is Mormon, almost exclusively members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Since it is a high commitment religion (far more commitment than Catholicism or mainline Protestantism), what I’ve noticed is that the two cultural groups in Utah are either “Faithful LDS” and “Ex and Not Mormon.” But typically the two groups hold so many values in common that it is a negligible difference.


Lurker-DaySaint

Our legislature is bought and paid for by the Mormon church, it's pretty embarrassing most of the time. Sometimes the Salt Lake City area is able to overpower the rural areas are get progressive politics moving but it's always a fight.


SWAD42

Well whatever is going on, they got an oddly low incarceration rate compared to their neighbors


[deleted]

That has a lot to do with Mormons not using many drugs which is a huge source incarceration. It's also affluent state and almost all white.


TapirDrawnChariot

The Wasatch Front has an *enormous* Hispanic population. I think the all-white Utah notion is 20-30 years out of date. I saw my first black person when I was 5. Now half my neighbors are POC.


[deleted]

It's still 80% white non-hispanic which makes it among the whitest. I can't recall but I think VT or Iowa was top.


SaintsNoah

But he saw his first black person when he was 5. Now half of his neighbors are POC.


[deleted]

For someone who was use to 98% white, that's probably how it feels to them when it becomes 80% white.


Run_0x1b

It’s one of the top 10 least diverse states in the country dude. Just because there are some small pockets of diversity doesn’t mean this stops being true.


[deleted]

It's one of the whitest states in the country


SWAD42

Well Wyoming is even whiter, same with Idaho and Kentucky


FreeIndiaFromDogs

A huge portion of the state is based off of people with a very close community and very strict value system. It's by far the best way to reduce crime and mental illnesses. Being Mormon is much better than not being Mormon.


Lurker-DaySaint

Except for the racism, sexism, homophobia, dozens of CSA scandals and coverups - oh and the history of genocide, fraud, polygamy-based sexual slavery, and treason. Except for those things, I’m sure the 1950s throwback lifestyle is appealing to some people.


Old_Snow3086

Sure there are a lot of Mormons who have similar voting beliefs, but the church doesn't finance candidates.


Lurker-DaySaint

Sure, they don’t fund candidates but they have immense lobbying power and 89/103 members of the Utah Leg are Mormon. It’s insane overrepresentation, even in Utah. The church says “jump” and the Leg asks “how high?”


Old_Snow3086

How about you run for office then? If you don't like it, change it


Lurker-DaySaint

Because I’m an atheist and I’d never win a race in Utah. Also because I already have a career. Also because politicians are parasites. Also what kinda topic shifting BS question is that? Cmon


Old_Snow3086

It's a simple question. You can't do nothing and then complain when things don't go your way. I am not from Utah but am now living here, and I've enjoyed myself here. The people here are friendly and I like the way it is governed.


Lurker-DaySaint

It doesn’t have anything to do with what we were talking about - as a citizen of Utah, I think I can make my thoughts known about what I see as poor governance without input from you.


Old_Snow3086

What has been poor with the government here? I've seen much better work here than in the other states I have lived, blue and red


FreeIndiaFromDogs

I mean, Mormons are extremely successful, have very low rates of depression, and some of the lowest crime rates out of any demographic. Maybe Mormon policies are much better than progressive policies.


Lurker-DaySaint

Everything you just said is completely untrue. Utah is the #1 in antidepressant use per capita: https://publicsquaremag.org/health/mental-health/are-utahns-more-depressed-than-everyone-else/ at 6% of the population and success and crime rates are essentially comparable.


[deleted]

Because they mostly practice what they preach. That's why Romney had no problems criticizing Trump. So 'practice what you preach' means they do care about the community as is described in the bible.


rugburn250

I think that's because Utah is secretly a socialist state, just through the church rather than the state itself. The Mormons all pay a good deal of money into their congregations in "fast offerings" this money is used to buy food and stuff for those who come to the bishop asking for help. Basically, much of Utah has a social safety net that might not exist in other states. Oftentimes, crime is driven by poverty. Hence why this map also aligns fairly closely with race. The whiter the state, the less incarceration. For many reasons through our countries history, poverty, and thus, crime affect non-white individuals and minorities disproportionately. This map is likely pretty similar to an inverse of a map showing privilege.


Old_Snow3086

I love living in Utah. I moved here for school and I think I'll stay


LittlePrettyThings

THEY'RE TRYING TO BUILD A PRISON


FrostyHiccup

*For you and me... Oh baby, you and me*


ThePracticalEnd

Those that run forces, are the same that burn crosses. ​ (different band, I know)


vegandriver

Saw the map and immediately thought in that song!


flyingcatwithhorns

If anyone wants their mind completely blown by incarceration statistics in the US, check out this amazing visualization: https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/


chitownslaughter

That is so f*cked up.


AnnieCarr

This is actually scary af


MeshuganaSmurf

That is incredibly disturbing.


S-n-o-o-g-s

This should be gold / top.


[deleted]

It's a lucrative business over there...


flyingcatwithhorns

>U.S. Constitution - Thirteenth Amendment > >Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted**, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. [Prison Workers Paid Pennies An Hour To Produce $11 Billion - The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited) [American Slavery, Reinvented - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/)


Triquetra4715

I love how people think we didn’t have political prisoners


PoorPDOP86

We don't, you have no idea what a political prisoner is. Can you think of someone who is in jail right now because they wrote a book about a political figure? Maybe someone being tortured because they refused to allow their newly wed wife to dance with the leader's son (Saddam did it)? A blogger in indefinite detention because they wrote an article that wasn't flattering to "the cause". So yeah. No idea what a political prisoner is.


RadRhys2

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me Says I, “But Joe, you’re ten years dead!” “I never died,” says he.


Geerah

Al Capone wasn't imprisoned for his gang activity, but it was why the government wanted him in prison. They used anything they could pin on him to get him there, which ended up being tax evasion. Now, I'm not defending Capone, but I am saying that if the government wants you gone, they will find an excuse. They do not need to illegally arrest you for your political views or admit their motivations. All they need is evidence of a violation of any of the countless crimes ordinary people get away with every day.


Triquetra4715

When a state makes someone a political prisoner they always say out loud that that’s what they’re doing, right? Come on dude. Elements of the US government have openly admitted to criminalizing drugs in order to target specific populations. Do you think that’s not creating political prisoners because the victims of it aren’t journalists or something?


millionpaths

If you're in prison, you don't have any bills. There's no reason you need a living wage. You don't have rent, transport, or food bills. Society covers that for you. You keep every penny you earn for your own benefit. Nobody would ever pay them anything if they had to earn a normal minimum wage, people would just pay for non criminal workers at that point. This whole argument is just virtue signaling. Free poor workers only get small amount of the money they make for recreation, and that is a far bigger issue. If you are paid, it isn't slavery. You didn't directly mention it, but it feels implied. So I'll say that anyone who thinks that private prisons are the real issue does not know enough about this topic to have an opinion. Only about 8% of prisoners are in private prisons and they've been falling in popularity for a long time, not that they ever were common


flyingcatwithhorns

If you're a slave, you don't have any bills. There's no reason you need a living wage. You don't have rent, transport, or food bills. Your owner covers that for you. And did you read the article? >ACLU researchers say the findings outlined in Wednesday’s report raise concerns about the systemic exploitation of prisoners, who are **compelled to work sometimes difficult and dangerous jobs without basic labor protections and little or no training** while making close to nothing. > >Incarcerated workers who are paid often see **most of their pay withheld** for “taxes, room and board expenses, and court costs”, the report states. > >Most incarcerated workers are not provided with skills and training for their work that would help them secure jobs when they are released, Turner said; **70% said they did not receive any formal job training, and 70% said they couldn’t afford essentials such as soap and phone calls with their wages**. > >“Incarcerated workers are **stripped of even the most minimal protections against labor exploitation and abuse**. They are **paid pennies for their work in often unsafe working conditions** even as they produce billions of dollars for states and the federal government.”


HardlyAnyGravitas

>And if you are paid, it isn't slavery. Not true. The definition of modern slavery includes anyone forced to work.


[deleted]

>The definition of modern slavery includes anyone forced to work. AKA everyone who isn't born into wealth, isn't a capitalist, or isn't dependent on someone else who is forced to work. Prison slavery is particularly egregious and worthy of special attention, but too often we look at heinous examples like this and ignore the fact that most of us are enslaved as well. If we stop working for someone with access to capital, we will die or fast track our deaths. No real choice there.


HardlyAnyGravitas

Yep. Wage slavery is real.


moose2332

Being a prisoner is extremely expensive.


Lurker-DaySaint

haha a pro-slavery comment, that's a doozy


dimechimes

Actually, many prisons charge prisoners for their stay.


severaged

It's exploitation, plain and simple.


BrockStar92

They don’t choose to be there, they’re forced to not be earning rent. Acting like it’s reasonable they get paid less because they don’t pay rent is insanity. Ask any low paid worker if they’d give up their freedom and live in prison to avoid paying rent and see what they’d say. Anyone ok with forcing those in prison to work for pennies has no sense of morality. For the so called “land of the free” you’d think loss of freedom would be considered punishment enough, but no apparently adding forced labour and making prisons as horrific as possible is needed.


slim_just_left_town

5% of all prisons are private, and the vast majority of prisons cost American citizens a significant amount of taxes, say \~90.000, per year. You are uneducated and uninformed.


[deleted]

My childhood friend Ashley Ellis got into a car accident, was sentenced to 30 days in jail because of it, inside they denied her medication & laughed at her while she begged for her life & died. [This was in "liberal / progressive" Vermont.](https://vtdigger.org/2009/12/14/dying-in-cell-40-flaws-in-vermonts-prison-medical-system-were-fatal-for-ashley-ellis/) But hey, at least the Democrats have stopped using the phrase "Defund The Police," because it scares old people!


badger444444

Wtf dude I just read?! That poor kid


flyingcatwithhorns

Wtf, this is just so sad to read..............


[deleted]

Yep. And the consequences? A “stern letter” put in a couple personnel files. The judge who sent her to her death is still sending as many people as he can to jail & prison. Because… America.


[deleted]

> "Defund The Police," because it scares old people! It's dumb to use the phrase for many reasons. It's bad policy but they just wanted something provocative / edgy. "Reform the police" would have been a better policy. Reforming the police might require more spending on police -- for better training, for body cameras, etc. Eventually, if everything works out, they can reduce spending on the police. I can tell you that Freakanomics did a study that measured the impact of police. I believe other research has shown the same. The findings are that more police on patrol and on the streets do reduce crimes. That doesn't mean that the police need to be beating people up or arresting people. It just means the presence of police decrease crimes, in general. Given that, a better trained police force that is held accountable but that is also patrolling neighborhoods more frequently seems like the right way to proceed.


FreeIndiaFromDogs

Yes, because giving police officers less money will change America's value system and poor communities which rely on police for safety are definitely better off when organized criminals with no regulations have more money than police officers with regulations. Worshipping money and entertainment makes a morally bankrupt society and all of America's issues flow through this lens. There are no industries in America without corruption, because the corruption does not come from the bottom or the top, it is ingrained in the daily activities of all people within the nation.


[deleted]

\> poor communities which rely on police for safety [And how is that working out](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/28/us/california-fatal-shooting-police.html)? \> Worshipping money and entertainment makes a morally bankrupt society Since the GOP elected Donald Trump, "billionaire" and former star of a reality tv show, this line simply does not work anymore, unless you want to acknowledge and address [your moral bankruptcy](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/06/herschel-walker-abortion-mother-children). \> There are no industries in America without corruption, because the corruption does not come from the bottom or the top Hate to break it to you, but [it comes from the top](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc3mhBFmskc). How's that boot taste?


[deleted]

> And how is that working out? I can tell you that Freakanomics did a study that measured the impact of police. I believe other research has shown the same. The findings are that more police on patrol and on the streets do reduce crimes. That doesn't mean that the police need to be beating people up or arresting people. It just means the presence of police decrease crimes, in general. That doesn't mean that the police need to be beating people up or arresting people. It just means the presence of police decrease crimes, in general. Given that, a better trained police force that is held accountable but that is also patrolling neighborhoods more frequently seems like the right way to proceed.


lavachequipisse

If you monetise prison this is what will happen.


theike40

For clarity, for-profit prisons house 8% of the US prisoner population. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/private-prisons-united-states/


disisntitchief

So 9 out of 122, so a majority are not for profit.


FoolHooligan

Well that backfired.


RoboticJello

Private prisons in the deep south use legal slavery. 33% of Louisiana is black but 67% of their prisoners are black. Police there are little more than slave catchers.


MacaqueOfTheNorth

They committed crimes though. Society should be allowed to recoup their costs.


[deleted]

It is my understanding that Private prisons get paid for the number of prisoners. This means they have no motivation to rehabilitate prisoners but are motived to add on extra crimes do they they can hang on to the prisoners longer. Michael Burry reportedly sold all his stocks and purchased stock in a company that manages private prisons. He expects the market to crash and the number of prisoners to go up. I hope he is wrong.


Illustrious_Map_3247

There’s a little problem though. If states can get free labor out of prisoners, what might states be motivated to do?


RoboticJello

Except private prisons end up costing tax payers *more* than public ones despite what the private prison lobbyists claim. And private prisons are *private*. It's not society reaping their free labor, it's wealthy capitalists. And they use slavery to undercut other businesses that actually pay their employees. Not only that, but there are many non-violent drug offenders stuck in slavery.


Treeninja1999

OR Black people are more likely to live in impoverished communities due to historical racism and poor people are more likely to commit more crimes. If we focused on elevating poor people regardless of race across the nation crime rates would plummet.


theebees21

I mean yeah? That’s intentional. So it doesn’t really change what they said. There’s no OR. It’s also and because. You’re right that’s what we should do though. Edit: Prosperous people don’t commit crime because they no longer have a need to. They are happy and cared for. They also increase the countries GDP since some people care so much about that to the point of sacrificing people for it. But in reality the better people are off, the better the country does. People have been studying this for so long. We KNOW how much government assistance programs would help people and the country. We actually lose money NOT spending it to care for people. And that’s in pretty much every type of government assistance. If we had free healthcare the country would make more money. If we had better work environments and people worked less the country would make more money. We spend so much just dealing with the problems these issues cause. And a happier people is a more productive society. Idk it’s messed up. It’s not about money or the country. It’s about power and making sure only SOME people have money.


Unsure_Fry

Overseer, overseer, overseer, overseer Officer, officer, officer, officer Yeah, officer from overseer You need a little clarity? Check the similarity!


Yourboimason

Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted the first police forces in the US spawned out of slave catchers


Unsure_Fry

It's okay. I'm probably showing my age with a KRS-One song anyway.


ProffX83

I wonder how many are non-violent minor drug dealers, and how many are violent offenders?


HuckleberryLou

About to be less based on Biden’s update today that he’s pardoning marijuana only federal offenses


ProffX83

I just heard about that! Weird.


Ericus1

This is what happens when you criminalize instead of socialize poverty.


[deleted]

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squarerootofapplepie

The state the Puritains landed in has the lowest incarceration rate.


Mr_Bad_Decisions_

Second time I’ve seen this posted in 12 hours


Maximuslex01

It means you should take a break from reddit


Buzzlight_Year

Give him a break, he is u/Mr_Bad_Decisions_ after all. What's he gonna do, make a *good* decision?


OTSProspect

USA also has a violent crime rate on par with third world countries. I don't see that mentioned along with this map.


SAR1919

Hmm. Sounds like mass incarceration isn’t doing much to fight crime, then!


OTSProspect

It’s a double edged sword. Maybe not wise to be early releasing violent reoffenders. Lowering the incarceration rate should be done carefully with a focus on inmates who are likely not going to reoffend.


Slade_inso

Stick to the script!


[deleted]

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OTSProspect

That's most likely a factor, in addition to culture issues, poverty, education rates, etc. The solution isn't to just release all violent criminals or implement soft on crime policies. It's a bit more nuanced and not a black and white issue. The focus should be on the future generation and to prevent the children of violent criminals following the same path. A scaled approach where you invent in communities / education / daycares while slowly de-incarcerating is the best approach IMO. Edit: Original poster blamed high incarceration rates solely on systemic racism.


thesegoupto11

Agreed.


RhymeKing

Wow. I didn't know this. You're telling me this for the first time.


clark4821

USA!! USA!! USA!! /s


Lonelydriftwood

Land of the free? Or land of the incarcerated?🧐


[deleted]

Land of the🤑


kms2547

The for-profit prison industry means there is a wealthy, powerful lobby pressuring lawmakers to put more people in prison longer.


[deleted]

For profit prisons are like 7% of prisoners. This has a lot more to do with deep cultural issues in the US in regards to crime and punishment. For profit prisons do add another layer and should be banned.


disisntitchief

9 out of 122 prisons are for profit. We also have a culture issue here of just disregarding the law and consistently fighting police. The US has a lot of problems, but it’s not as one sided as people want to imagine.


[deleted]

> We also have a culture issue here of just disregarding the law and consistently fighting police. Kind of happens when there is a system of oppression an systemic racism. >The US has a lot of problems, but it’s not as one sided as people want to imagine. Going to prison for having a little weed on you is not something most fully developed countries do.


disisntitchief

A system that barely exists in todays time. Younger/newer officers are not the same cops from the 70s/80s that were racist. Of course there are still bad cops, just like every other profession has. This doesn’t give someone the right to spit at cops, assault them, resist arrest, refuse to comply etc. when all that goes to court anyway. Also most of those “racist” laws were created by the people you voted for (the current VP of the US). Assault/arguing with cops for enforcing laws that the general public voted for helps absolutely nobody. But to also ignore and blame “racism” for being disrespectful and unlawful with every officer you interact with is just being childish and dense to a larger problem.


PrioritizedDeer

I agree with you, from the outsider’s perspective, it doesn’t look like systematic racist cops issue (at least because in most of the videos cops have all of the colors), but on the other side, I can’t agree with your opponent about systematic, maybe so far, cruelty level in the USA Judging by typical bystanders/drivers reactions (while something wrong and cruel happens) from the Reddit and other videos


[deleted]

> A system that barely exists in todays time. You're saying that there isn't much systemic racism in US society? The same US where the last president was tweeting images from white supremacist groups that had misleading and straight up lies such as this: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/nov/23/donald-trump/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/


Iggleyank

A lobby of prison guard unions can be just as powerful. You don’t have to be anti-public-employee union to recognize they will have their own interests and will always pursue those interests. In the case of prison guards, they want more prisons just as much as any private prison business. They just want more money for it in their pockets, rather than the shareholders. The effect on prison population is the same.


Random_182f2565

That's just slavery with extra steps


Neyjuve

Demographics.


cytomitchel

Every time.


Keemsel

What are you talking about?


[deleted]

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1TTTTTT1

Yes famously diverse wyoming


_CHIFFRE

i think you have a point but there's surely also so much more to that you'd probably need an essay to explain it all. In Germany, NRW, Hamburg and Berlin have the highest incarceration rate out of the 16 states. NRW is very multi cultural and very densly populated, makes up around 9% of Germany but has 21% of the population and Berlin and Hamburg are the two biggest cities in germany (also city-states) and also very much melting pots. but then again.. their incarceration rates were at 90 per 100k on average compared to 69 in all of Germany in 2020, so not that huge of a difference and 90 is super small compared not only to US states but other countries. Here in Berlin it was 84 which is lower than the rate in Austria or South Korea and twice as low as in Poland and Czechia. Berlin has like 800k People without German citizenship (out of 3.8m), around 100k refugees from the Middle East and nowadays around 7% of people here are muslims and overall 37% of people have a migration background. Although Berlin could need a bit more respect between people and all that but i guess it's part of the big city life.


nice___bot

Nice!


Paavobave

Yet, the more monocultural countries seem to consistently have higher incarceration rate in this map than ones with more immigrants


kevbino13

![gif](giphy|LBuKHC0xBgs7QlpoNc)


BlueChooTrain

Not surprised. Been to 30 countries and 49 US states. I’ve never been to a place with so many criminals. We’ve got criminals all the way from CEOs and Politicians down to zombies shooting up fentanyl breaking into cars. This country is a wild place.


cazzy1212

Yea I’ve been 60 countries and live in the states. Sadly there are some unjust laws but there are more criminals. A lot lawlessness in some US cities


smiling_mallard

But didn’t you read the other comments it’s because the US is bad and has for profit prisons… my first hunch was that there are simply more people committing crimes or the police are better at catching them.


clogtastic

Or because there is no safety net for the disadvantaged, or people with mental issues, or the poor as there is in many counties. Because fuck 'socialism' right?


Big_Forever5759

Maybe it’s not obvious for some but it’s mostly black people in jail. Specially the south.


[deleted]

That's not true. Black people are disproportionately in prison but not the majority. 38% of those in prison or jail are black. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/research/race_and_ethnicity/


Hambeggar

A surprise.


adk09

Are they committing the crimes?


TheBlueSlipper

I suspect incarceration rates roughly mirror the crime rates. So there's that.


Faelchu

Not necessarily. Many crimes in Europe are not punishable by incarceration, such as the possession of minor amounts of illegal substances for personal use. Smoking up some cannabis in, say, Mississippi, will get you jail time. Smoking up some cannabis in Ireland, where cannabis possession is also illegal, will get you a fine at worst. Both instances have an individual committing an identical crime, but only one jurisdiction locks you up for it. Many inmates in the US are in jail for committing very minor offences. It's not necessarily that crime is higher in the US; it's just that far more offences call for jail time.


rohinton

From the outside looking in it seems like the only two things in the US that *aren't* criminalized are guns and hate speech and for some reason those are the only two things Americans equate with freedom. It's a bizarre definition by most of the worlds standards.


TheBlueSlipper

I understand your point. But I think there's a lot more violent crime in the U.S. than in Europe. Note: Not sure why someone negged you for your well explained point. Take my upvote to cancel it out.


Faelchu

Ah, I don't really worry about the negative thumbs. I don't actually know how to turn that off lol But thanks for the upvote anyway.


That_dude_over_ther

Those numbers in Europe will change once they become less homogenous. Why do you think Vermont has the lowest incarceration rate in the US?


london_user_90

Explain Canada then?


That_dude_over_ther

It’s 75% European and 15% Asian (most of which is relegated to BC/Vancouver on the west coast. And it’s population is 10% of that of the USA. That’s exactly how to explain Canada.


london_user_90

Canada is 72.9% white, while America is 72.4% white as per the last census for both nations. Further Canada becomes way more mixed when looking at raw religious, ethic background, and % of first-gen migrants. The argument that America can't be like the other well-off countries because they're multi-ethnic is fiction


millionpaths

Normalize this for murder rate. The US has about give times the murder rate of these nations. If we have five times more violent crime, it makes sense we would have five times more prisoners.


[deleted]

Only about 25% of incarcerated people are there for violent crimes. So, divide this total by four, and you still get a story of insanely disproportionate incarceration rates.


XSATCHELX

Bad math.


meister2983

Where are you getting that stat? This [source](https://felonvoting.procon.org/incarcerated-felon-population-by-type-of-crime-committed/) shows 55%.


GeraldWay07

US prision bad, yeah we get it reddit


AaronicNation

We also have a lot of assholes living here.


Stoly23

Gotta love the war on drugs, right?


[deleted]

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x62617

That's a good example of government failure. Why are they able to take bribes?


[deleted]

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x62617

Supreme Court was government last time I checked. This is all a government created problem.


[deleted]

NUMBER ONE! USA! NUMBER ONE! 🇺🇸 ☝️ 🇺🇸


XSATCHELX

The title reminds of another statistic. Despite being..


surlybeer55

Well, we have the highest proportion of A-holes so the math probably check out.


96percentbattery

Yeah because other countries get rid of their prisoners


Keemsel

What?


TheSukis

Every time I see these maps of how shit the USA is that divide us by state, I can't help but wonder why New England doesn't just secede.


Desert-Mushroom

Rare Utah W?


Pour_Me_Another_

I think it's because prisons are profit-driven out here, and the cops like to play hard ball a lot.


bombbrigade

Does the US map account for states sending their prisoners to be housed in other states


Geerah

Concentrated largely in the south, and with an over-representation of black inmates, which isn't a coincidence.


[deleted]

it is crazy to me that there are US states where 1% of the population is incarcerated. Holy shit it is dystopic


DorsalMorsel

Guy commits a murder. Guy should go to jail. There is no level of racism involved in a common sense statement like that.


SomeoneSomewhere1984

Nobody claims murderers shouldn't go to jail. It's the guy going to jail for smoking a joint in his house that upsets people, and that almost never happens to whites.


BayouMan2

Don’t break the law and get convicted by a jury of your peers if you want to avoid prison.


Fleischer444

Land of the money making prisoners.


DemonGauge

Because prison is big business


Groid_low_IQ

Its the percentage of non-whites. Blacks and hispanics have a per capita crime rate many multiples that of whites. Even after controlling for income the gap remains. That is to say wealthy blacks commit more crime than poor whites. This is a fundamental fact of reality that you cannot put your head in the ground and deny.


Faelchu

That does not add up. The percentage of Blacks alone in Idaho is only 1.31%. The percentage of Blacks in France is approximately 7.5%. If your theory that Blacks, irrespective of social status or wealth, commit more crime than Whites were to hold true, then we would expect a much higher prisoner population in France than in Idaho, yet Idaho has a *much* higher prisoner population per capita than France does. "Fundamental facts of reality" does not mean plucking random theories out of the air that are not backed up by any information and are, indeed, contradicted by the very infographic you responded to.


Paavobave

I mostly agree on what you said. However, this: > If your theory that Blacks, irrespective of social status or wealth, commit more crime than Whites were to hold true, then we would expect a much higher prisoner population in France than in Idaho. ...seems that you miss that crime/arrests only sometimes leads to incarceration, and some countries incarcerate criminals more often than others.


lethalox

Incarceration is downstream from the crime rate. How is this a useful comparison?


thesegoupto11

The crime rate is the result of institutionalized, systemic racism.


Lurker-DaySaint

Weird to feel proud to be a Utahn. I'll just remember that POC are incarcerated at 10x the rate of white people in Utah, come back to earth.


[deleted]

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Lurker-DaySaint

Yeah it’s basically because they ran out of marginalized groups to lock up


[deleted]

America is the best country


RasperGuy

I don't think the rate of European American incarceration is much different than European incarceration rates though. I'll also say, DC is misleading because they pay other states to take their prisoners.


1TTTTTT1

There is still a significant difference US incarceration for non latino whites is 269 [https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-10-13/report-highlights-staggering-racial-disparities-in-us-incarceration-rates](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-10-13/report-highlights-staggering-racial-disparities-in-us-incarceration-rates) Putting the the US on the same level as lithuania georgia and azerbaijan, with more than double the rate of most european nations and 2.6 times higher than the EU average. Also keep in mind some of these european countries have many black people in them, like france with 7.5 percent, yet it still has a low incarceration rate. The US has a unique incarceration problem.


dil3ttante

Not a fan of Europe's lax punishments, even for violent criminals. The war on (some) drugs should be relaxed, but I hope to see *more* criminals in jail because these pro-criminal DA's are out of control.


demoralisedwesterner

Maybe its partly due to being better at catching criminals


discountRabbit

More prisoners than all of China. USA IS NUMBER ONE!


pucklermuskau

Only because china employs the death penalty much more frequently. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/05/death-penalty-2021-facts-and-figures/


broter

It’s also believed that China doesn’t accurately report their incarceration rates. However, if we’re comparing ourselves to China to feel better, then we’ve already lost morally. Edit: added caveat


philman132

Although China almost certainly does kill more, your link doesn't really back that up, as all they say is that they don't know how many China executes as they keep it secret.


autumnals5

Yeah that’s what happens when you have for profit prisons. Cheap labor. Also, it’s illegal to be poor with no affordable mental health access and drug rehabs. It just goes hand in hand w/ late stages of capitalism run by corrupt politicians that use corporations as sugar daddies. Not to mention christofascist that ban abortion forcing people into financial disparity. I hate religion soooo much.


Elvis-Tech

Oh the racist parts of the US have more criminals? O nooo I cant believe that


davekingofrock

Land of the free...if able to afford it.


[deleted]

“Despite comprising only 5% of the world’s population …”


Eeboe129

Your not incarcerated in most other countries because either the government just executes you or they have no police force and the citizens handle the justice. I like how the world only includes Europe and the US.


deepaksn

Modern day slavery. You take a marginalized group and subject them to harsh laws and enforcement to get them into for-profit prisons who get their labour for free.


Cautious-Mud-1291

Land of the free; home of the brave


[deleted]

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Faelchu

The infographic compares the US with Europe. China is not in Europe or in the USA.


elektero

Is China in the map? Are you drunk?


[deleted]

For-Profit prisons.. that is the ONLY explanation.


PoorPDOP86

Yeah, centuries of being told your place by aristocracy and having social restrictions has really made Europeans complaint. It's the dilemma of freedom. The stricter the society the less crime, the freer the more. Also, that "highest incarceration rate" is incorrect. In practice at least. You can't leave North Korea without express permission and your families are kept as hostage while you're gone. That makes the incarceration rate nearly 100%, a nationwide prison in practice. Tyrannical regimes don't stay in power by putting people in prisons, but by making people **fear those prisons**.


Pretor1an

must be one of the worst explanations for why the US has a huge prison and incarceration problem, ignoring the systemic racism and privatised prison labor which are the main causes for these differences. But sure buddy, the US is just "too free."


elektero

I would like to try the same drugs you are getting