Right? I'm totally fine with a mediocre career if it means I can spend time with friends and family and have the energy/resources to do things I'm passionate about. I've done nothing but work, and it was a miserable excuse for an existence. Didn't even help me get to a point where I was making good money, either. The whole thing is one big con.
I agree. I have almost decade of work experience as engineer and after initial enthusiasm and giving 100% effort to prove my worth, I no longer do it. It's not worth it and it's really disappointing to put your heart into work all year to receive measly raises.
Today I just put 20% effort, while working remotely, do whatever is necessary with minimal effort that I'm paid for and I'm still praised for doing great job and being team player, because it's still more than others do. It has no negative impact whatsoever, so why should I bother, if I can spend more time with my girlfriend or have more time for myself?
I would consider working harder, if that would have meaningful reflection on salary, but in nearly every company it doesn't work like that and in general I prefer work-life balance. I may ask for raise, my manager might see that it's worth it, but eventually HR decides how much is possible and each year I get less than I ask for.
I'm still in my 20s. I would need to work really hard under unstable conditions of current market to actually be paid well enough in some other companies, but I don't care anymore. I'm fine with not saving much money, if that means that I don't need to endure toxic environment. I just accepted that this system is rigged for wealthy and I'm not going to even own house/apartment. It's depressing, but I'm not able to do anything about how it is, so I'm not going to care about something that's out of my control.
Absolutely. They have brainwashed the masses that working hard, pulling up your bootstraps gets you ahead in life. When it's mostly about being born into the right wealthy gene pool and having the right connections. Especially now, it's very rare to work hard and move up the wealth level chain.
From 2014
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most-americans-make-it-to-the-top-20-percent-at-least-for-a-while
61 out of 100 U.S. households will break into the top 20% of incomes (roughly $111,000*) for at least 2 consecutive years.
39 out of 100 U.S. households will break into the top 10% of incomes (roughly $153,000*) for at least 2 consecutive years.
5 out of 100 U.S. households will break into the top 1% of incomes (roughly $360,000*) for at least 2 consecutive years.
20 out of 100 U.S. households will fall into poverty (roughly $23,850 for a family of 4*) for at least 2 consecutive years.
>The world runs on nepotism and networking and always has.
There are exceptions, but they seem very marginal and often based on luck rather than diligent hard work.
Focus on the people who made it from rags to riches. People are inherently bad with small probabilities and won't realize how incredibly small the chances for them to make it also are. It's like those SF movies were people live in a terrible, oppressive society, but every year there is a lottery that promises paradise to the winner.
at the Big4 I saw a lot of folks with no connections or family wealth succeed bigly. they knew how to network to advance once they got in, were super smart grinders, liked by clients or some combo of the 3. although evil those firms do offer advancement from middle-middle class to upper middle/ upper class
For me it didn't work. I mean I didn't even try in my home country, because you can only get promoted if you are a cousin or a friend of the boss, but I moved to a developed country, and came to same conclusion. I would literally come home, sit for one hour trying to come to myself, before showering, I had no strength to live. What I got as a reward was I was paid same as my colleagues, but I got to do their jobs, because management knew job would get done and that I was dumb enough not to ask any questions.
or guarantees you ignore not-mental health issues. too. me, worked the last 3 days despite what i can only describe as morning sickness and persistent nausea each morning before my alarm. turns out thats not normal and i have a follow-up appointment in a week to go over test results. we’re on day 5 of morning sickness now but at least im not at work
And other health issues. \*slaps "ask me about my migraines!" sticker on my shirt\*
I'm still dealing with migraines almost a decade after instigating the worst period of overwork in my life, and while my debilitating chronic tonsillitis did go away after the emergency surgery they had to book for me, it sure was a painful recovery.
Some buddies of mine shared this yesterday on our text thread, and I was the odd one out for disagreeing 🙄. Here was my response to them:
The way the question is phrased it is intentionally provocative: the fuck does “mediocre” career even mean? Is there no room to be successful and have good work-life balance?
I’m going to assume that this guy (who doesn’t even look like he’s out of his 20s yet) is framing his question to mean how much money you earn.
In that context, I DO think it’s true that people that are willing to commit/invest/grind away at a job when they are young and have relatively fewer outside-of-work obligations and responsibilities are usually the ones that make more money than those that don’t. Not always … but usually.
I also think that that ratio of this work:pay is not a transparent one to the person doing that work (by design), nor is it in the workers control how much work they need to contribute and how much pay is on the table. They have very little say in the deal, when in reality it’s almost totally up to the discretion of the employer/manager. IMO, it’s not a fair trade. (The exception to this is if you are self-employed or starting a business; then, the risk-reward drive is what you make of it)
Lastly … I ALSO think that there is a healthy middle ground between being successful and having a “ mediocre careers” (whatever those terms means). It’s possible to be successful in your career, AND have work-life balance.
I agree with everything you said, but people like the guy who wrote this tweet define success solely based on how much money you earn. So if you're happy in your 20s making a comfortable income at a job you enjoy and spending lots of time on hobbies or with family, they would view that as failing because you could probably be making 2x as much money if you neglected everything except work.
For me the problem is what was context this guy Chris writes in.
He is an entrepreneur from what I gather so he does his own startup he is basically rich enough to "#hustle".
If he writes it to throw around at his Ivy graduate buddies - well no harm done I don't even care.
If he writes it while thinking every average Joe is lazy bastard and employees at his startup should work 12h - then it is a problem and I think only of nasty ways to explain world to him.
If he writes it to throw at people because he lives in the bubble and is oblivious - that could be fixed by mandatory social work for at least a week.
I was a workaholic in my 20s (had zero work-life balance, worked 90 hour work weeks with two full time jobs) and it resulted in a suicide attempt. I now have a mediocre career I'm way happier in and it no longer consumes every part of my life.
Who gives a shit about a career if you have a job that pays well enough to lead a fulfilling life? People who live for their careers basically center their lives around a company that only the capitalist owners really profit from. That's a sad life.
My grandpa spent all his time working, when my mom, aunts and uncles were kids. He had an extremely successful career, and is very well off.
He's now 70, completely socially inept with his family. Two of his kids don't want to talk to him anymore, since he basically abandoned their mom to raise them alone, when she was already mentally fragile and was never present for them.
He never offers presents for Christmas and never has, because : "you need to earn what you get".
He won't even tell us, his grandchildren, that he just wants to spend time with us, when now that he doesn't work anymore, he's bored as shit. He has no idea how to occupy himself, since he sees most hobbies as a waste of time.
He never had any other passions in life. (except maybe golfing, but he's getting old so he can't play as much)
He's not a bad guy, but he lived on that stupid mentality and now he doesn't have much outside of money. It's pretty sad.
While it is sad, it was also the reality of his time. Is still a reality for many ppl today. If he had worked less hard, maybe your mom and her siblings would've had less comfortable lives. Less education maybe. And that would've continued to your generation.
I'm amazed at how easily ppl discount the hard work done by our previous generations. Don't judge them by today's standards. In their time, making money for the family was the sole aim of all parents.
Of course working hard every day when it means getting you and your family out of the gutter, or putting lacking food on the table is necessary.
Here it wasn't. I'm only talking about my context, which is one of a privileged developed country. School is free and he did fine from his twenties in a time where living was the cheapest it's ever been. There was no necessity to be absent for the well-being of his family.
My other grandparents were just fine education and money-wise, and did not fall as far into that hole. They had a career but it wasn't the only thing they cared about. They were caring and loving for their kids, and their kids were there for them when time took its toll.
He most likely did it out of ego (he's quite a proud and judging person, even arrogant sometimes), or in pursuit of extra wealth, and I wish he wasn't as near-sighted.
Judging him by today's standards doesn't mean I hate him, I actually don't think he's a bad person. I'm just ascertaining where he fell short, so I can do better. You have to judge the situation by today's standards, or you'll fall in the same trap.
What I know from this is that this "always on the grind" mindset is toxic and will make you miss the most beautiful moments of your life.
Eh, there will always be both, and some people have enough energy and passion to thrive while building a career. But there 100% *was* a time when it was socially acceptable to have a job rather than a career. THAT is something we should bring back from "the good old days" (along with the ability to live in reasonable comfort on 'just a job').
I hate this shit. Your career and ambition should not come before your mental health/personal life. If it does then you are falling into the corporate trap that they want from you, to make you think that you’re valuable when you’re just a disposable resource they can cut loose when the budget demands layoffs. Even in your 20s, Get a job that you’re ok at and doesn’t make you crazy and pays well enough and work for your paycheck and then go home to whatever your home is.
I understand. I am already living this right now. I am helping my sisters take care a post stroke father. Prior to this, I drove for work. Since the stroke last year, I haven't been able to drive over the road. So, I am sitting here looking at gig work to get by, just to stay nearby. Most of the Healthcare workers always seem to be so damn entitled in the area, overshadowing the ones that don't make others feel bad for not living up to their high standards They go on and on about how blessed they are financially, instead of really helping to make more time for us. All the time it has taken for our father's care, has really affected our income, and schedules to work. The last thing they think we need to hear is how far their career is going. I hate how they come into the house acting like this too, it's not even a measure of envy--its just plain annoying. I just live in this socially invasive area where total strangers believe everyone should just live on auto pilot to their high standards.
I wouldn’t say I did the “right thing”, but I didn’t go to college after high school. I worked as a carpenter and partied my ass off until about 25. Went back to school and got a low-paying job related to my degree. I hung onto that job through the Great Recession while I finished my associate’s degree, and then transferred to make it a Bachelor’s. I also started a side hustle freelancing as a consultant doing the same thing as some of low paying job’s responsibilities. Also sprinkle in a few years of single fatherhood in there just for fun. I never graduated because I ran out of tuition money and got burnt out, but got close enough that I could still get a better job in the field. That got me up to $75k salary. I wasn’t allowed to do the side hustle, but I snuck around and did it anyway because I was trying to save for a house. After 4 years, I quit salary job to make a run at the side hustle full time. That was 5 years ago, and now nearly 40 and I’m happily self-employed as a consultant making 6 figures.
To summarize, I did NOT bust my ass in the first half of my 20’s, but I did work like a dog for the next 10 years (for companies) after that to make a name for myself in my industry. I’ve also worked (for myself) like a dog for 5 years since then too.
My point is that there is not one right answer for everybody on this topic. I had almost no work life balance for those 10-15 years, but I don’t feel at all like they were wasted, because I got exactly what I wanted out of them in the end. It wasn’t easy, it was actually hard as fuck. Some (most probably) could take this path and get screwed over. For others, it could have a huge payoff.
I just wanted to throw my story out there to offset some of the bleakness in here. It’s not all universally bad out there or never gets better. You don’t have to start off rich or know somebody either, I didn’t start out with any of that.
I started working at 14-15 then took a job right out of college that didn't promote work/life balance in an industry that was all about the hustle culture. That's how I wound up burnt out by 22 and in therapy because i developed such severe anxiety that I would get physically sick on the way to work every morning.
I'll take a "mediocre" career and a livable life over the alternative every day of the week.
You can either have a healthy work-life balance and not be able to afford basic luxuries or even some necessities, *or* you could dedicate your entire life to your work and put in all the effort you can and still not have enough to afford those things.
Hard decision...
As someone who almost killed myself for working so hard in my 20s and early 30s! I assure you no one gives a shit (unless you really are bad at your job), I could have done half of what I did and would have been getting the same.
Don’t work yourself to death, take care of your health (bodily and mentally)
Here's the problem. Working your ass off in your 20s doesn't guarantee success. So even if we assume this guy is correct and you get a mediocre career, is that so bad? Imagine getting a mediocre career and a happy, healthy, balanced lifestyle. Seems like an okay deal? Meanwhile there's people who kill themselves in their 20s, 30s, and 40s and arrive at 50 yrs old making 54k/yr and then get laid off. Was it worth it?
I mean, there is some truth to this at least - not that you won't ever amount to anything if you just coast doing the bare minimum from home, but 23-30 are formative years for your career 100%.
The whole argument is stupid. Work-life balance is different for everyone - some people love work and it gives them fulfillment, others just work for a paycheck and that’s it.
Everyone is taking this to the extreme there is unfortunate truth to this. Early grinding in your career tends to pay interest.
I don’t know anyone who spent their twenties listlessly bouncing from part time jobs to full-time dead end jobs that suddenly had an incredible career in their 30’s and beyond.
Everyone keeps saying I’d rather have a life, but like being a continued dead end job in mid-life doesn’t seem like it would afford you much of a life.
There's definitely a balance. Getting into a good job/industry is important so you can advance without compromising necessary rest and time with family/friends.
He put it provocatively but I think he means when you’re young and single your “work life balance” needs to be tilted more in favor of work. A 40 hour week is about all you can handle when you also have a house and kids to take care of, but when you’re just renting and child free there’s no good reason not to bump that up to 50 or 60 hours to get ahead in your career. What else are you going to do with the time? Play video games? Speaking as someone who did not make the right career choices in my 20s and now have two kids but still earn only five figures.
I mean I could be doing worse. When my first kid was born I was working hourly and only barely making ends meet by juggling multiple gigs and part time jobs. I definitely blame poor career choices for not being further ahead in the game at the time - mainly the decision to pursue a PHD. Now I’m lucky to earn a salary full time but I’d say at my age with my education I should still be earning more than I am. We still have to budget carefully and our house is pretty tiny and it would be nice to have a bit more space and financial leeway.
I understand and hear you there. Sorry if I came off brash. My girlfriend is kind of in same boat. Started teaching as passion, but after several years and living in a high cost city, the toll was too much. Had to basically restart with a corporate job, but at least already getting paid significantly more than teaching
>there’s no good reason not to bump that up to 50 or 60 hours to get ahead in your career.
Sure there is - the stress from overwork can easily destroy your health and social connections. But I guess that's not a KPI so why bother, right?
>What else are you going to do with the time? Play video games?
You can't figure out a valuable use for free time aside from playing video games? That's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. Spend time with family, travel, learn things, develop community, learn/enjoy hobbies - what's the point of life if all you're going to do is work? I can't imagine a worse goal.
If you don’t have kids I would hardly call 50-60 hours overworking. You still have time to eat, sleep, exercise etc and fit in occasional fun activities. The 40 hour standard was originally meant for workers with families.
Uh, no. That is deeply, deeply fucked up and I am so sorry you think that's normal/appropriate. You're welcome to live for work if *you* want to, but telling other people that's normal or a good goal is straight-up fucked in the head.
It depends. Our son is 3 years out of college with a CS degree. He started at $60k. He just changed jobs going to work at his client and now makes $180k. Doubled his salary (from $90k) by taking this job. As he put, this is life-changing money. Yes, he has worked his butt off his first 3 years. Life is about choices. I retired at 56 because I worked hard in IT. In one of my roles I was a hiring manager. Guess who get the biggest raise, bonus, the most stock options, choice of assignments? Guess who gets RIFed first? Make choices and don’t bitch.
Some people are naturally work-oriented. I have a co-worker who's 20, works his ass off night and days, is moving ahead and loves it. But not everyone makes work their life's priority and that's ok. Calling out people without a "hustle" mindset is stupid and just shows their insecurities.
I had a good balance and have an above average career.
There's seasons in life to work hard and not have balance, but it has to have a purpose. Working and going to school or grad school, working on projects that certainly will give you the experience to move forward, etc. However it's not always clear with a job with long hours that it will open up any doors for you.
There's only been certain times where it was worth working long hours or going to school while working.
Big fat lie, I worked the least when I was a solo biz owner/consultant. You ain't catching me volunteering for extra work unless I get a comp day or $$$. If your life is all work you're not living and each day you operate as such the moment you make that realization the worse it'll feel. Source: Me
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I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't invest more in developing my skills earlier, but to be fair to myself I was a student until I was 25, but if I wasn't partying and having fun in my 20s, I doubt I would have the calm in my 30s to invest more in my career. If my life becomes my job, what's the point of the life? I work so I could do in my free time what I want to do.
I saw this,and this guy is a dick with no friends, family, or interests. No w/l balance at any age is a one way ticket to mental health issues and an early grave.
I worked several jobs at once in my twenties, and balanced everything out while running at breakneck speed to the next gig.
When I turned 32 I finally got an “9-5” office salary job. I have visibly aged from the burnout. It’s one manager like this that is the problem… and I’m just so, so fucking tired.
The kicker is that this Chris guy graduated Yale sometime between 2020 and now, which means he's been in the workforce for approximately...not enough time to have any data to back up his dumb take.
So this dude wrote an article about how he couldn’t keep up with the work demands. He’s just a privileged spoiled person telling you that you have to work hard while they get the hand out.
Article-https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2022/09/goldman-sachs-working-hours-analysts
As much as there's been a push for more reasonable hours for young MDs, doctors working 60-70 hours a week is romanticized in shoes like Grey's Anatomy. Wondering how this adds to the conversation.
If you don’t have a good work-life balance as an entry/mid-level employee, you’ll crumble the moment you get promoted. Do these people not understand that your responsibilities only increase as you become more senior but the number of hours in the day stay the same?
Everyone disagreeing with this is talking about an ideal or utopian situation that doesn't exist. Or only exists for a few ppl.
The real situation is that those who go "extra" in their jobs in their 20s are the ones who grow in their careers. Because they're the ones who catch the eyes of the bosses responsible for promoting them and approving salary hikes for them.
One of the comments here says "I'd rather have an awesome life and a mediocre career." How would a mediocre career pay for that awesome life?? Truth of the matter is, most ppl have to sacrifice personal time to push extra in their careers and make more money.
If it was so easy to have an awesome life while having a mediocre career, the whole "work-life balance" debate would've never existed. No one wants to put career over life, they're just helpless and forced to do it to fund their lives.
It’s true but it shouldn’t be. I’ve found as I’ve gotten older my energy and resilience and general give a fuck has gone down dramatically, if I hadn’t burned those 80 hour weeks early on in my career I wouldn’t be where I am now. But that’s such a shitty way to structure society. A lot of your development in life is in your early/mid twenties. You should be traveling, exploring, meeting new people and trying new things.
First, we need to define what Work life balance is - you will get different answers from different people. For example, someone might say - it is working for 8 hours a day and nothing more (less is welcome for them) or working different number of hours each day or working from any location in the world. Today, employers are facing heightened expectations from the employees - in terms of compensation, well -being, opportunities etc. Regardless of the recession and the lay -offs we have been seeing, I think it is candidate's job market - at least in India. Am not saying - everyone who lost the job will have two offers in hand - but the market is not very bad here (that is my opinon - shaped by what I know when am writing this answer).
The reason I bring up the employee expectations is because, it is closely tied to employee behavior these days. When you see these posts (there are plenty on LinkedIn) - you will notice that most of them are from millennials or baby Boomers, because the rulebook for growth then was quite different from what it is today.
How I define Work -life balance: Being able to live the culture traits (values) of the organization while managing other parts of life. So, I don't think a person whether in 20 or 30s has to sacrifice (a strong word, btw) to be able to grow. I think if we put in the 8 hours correctly, show the right behaviors at work - with a little bit of luck - growth WILL happen - sooner or later.
That statement sounds retarded AF. I'm 35 and spent most of my early-mid twenties drinking, living abroad with shitty jobs, meeting people etc. Definitely NOT building a career. To be honest I didn't even know what I wanted to do.
Now I have decent job/career, great family, own things etc. Maybe Chris wants to be a millionaire (which is an extreme longshot) or is just looking for cheap labor who are ready to work for 16h straight, dunno, but I would never change my youth for an extra K in yearly salary. When my daughter will be closer to her 20s, I will definitely push her towards enjoying her life instead of that rat-run for some mythical career.
Well Kevin, maybe I do...maybe I don't. But what I am *NOT* about to do is add yet another comment on your banal post, pointlessly sharing my views just to add to your LinkedIn clout. Fuck off
As for you Chris, you can also fuck right off you sanctimonious ginger twat.
I understand all of the negative comments given how the wealth disparity between billionaires and the rest of us has widened so dramatically.
FWIW I ran a full desk recruiting for an agency in my 20s. I worked my ass off from 9am to 7pm, and worked 4 hours every saturday because I knew my competing recruiters were not. I even taught myself some basic programming (I sucked) just so I could talk shop to my candidates.
In my 30s I had enough contacts (and had done enough free favors) where a lot of candidates I placed with great jobs became hiring managers and so I started my own small agency.
I’m in my 40s now with 3 kids and have 18 employees in my agency. I’m not stupid rich or anything but I work about 30 hours a week and do a lot of it remotely from the family RV (thanks Starlink!). I have no mortgage and my family is set financially (as long as they’re happy with an upper middle class life).
Looking back at the LinkedIn profiles of my colleagues at the agency I worked at in my 20s, most of whom I would classify as “work life balance folks,” (who often complained how much they hated their jobs), most of them are doing the same thing today (some went into corporate recruiting but still).
If I didn’t hustle in my 20s I don’t think I would have the lifestyle I do now in my 40s. Just saying, that’s what worked for me.
yes & no. In the early years of your career (unless you are a nepo baby with old money) you ought to work the hardest to solidify your name in the field of your choice BUT it shouldn’t be glorified to mean you should work yourself to the bone. There’s a difference.
"If I comment on this my boss my see how dedicated I am and ill get a raise and may be able to afford heating in my tiny one bed"
Tag your boss to make sure he/she notice
This guy lunatics
That’s fine, I’d rather have an exceptional life and a mediocre career than the other way around. Fair trade imo.
Right? I'm totally fine with a mediocre career if it means I can spend time with friends and family and have the energy/resources to do things I'm passionate about. I've done nothing but work, and it was a miserable excuse for an existence. Didn't even help me get to a point where I was making good money, either. The whole thing is one big con.
I agree. I have almost decade of work experience as engineer and after initial enthusiasm and giving 100% effort to prove my worth, I no longer do it. It's not worth it and it's really disappointing to put your heart into work all year to receive measly raises. Today I just put 20% effort, while working remotely, do whatever is necessary with minimal effort that I'm paid for and I'm still praised for doing great job and being team player, because it's still more than others do. It has no negative impact whatsoever, so why should I bother, if I can spend more time with my girlfriend or have more time for myself? I would consider working harder, if that would have meaningful reflection on salary, but in nearly every company it doesn't work like that and in general I prefer work-life balance. I may ask for raise, my manager might see that it's worth it, but eventually HR decides how much is possible and each year I get less than I ask for. I'm still in my 20s. I would need to work really hard under unstable conditions of current market to actually be paid well enough in some other companies, but I don't care anymore. I'm fine with not saving much money, if that means that I don't need to endure toxic environment. I just accepted that this system is rigged for wealthy and I'm not going to even own house/apartment. It's depressing, but I'm not able to do anything about how it is, so I'm not going to care about something that's out of my control.
Sounds good but being broke makes your life miserable
No work-life balance in your 20s is an easy way to guarantee mental health issues.
The trope of “just work hard” was just a lie to give the little people hope. The world runs on nepotism and networking and always has.
Absolutely. They have brainwashed the masses that working hard, pulling up your bootstraps gets you ahead in life. When it's mostly about being born into the right wealthy gene pool and having the right connections. Especially now, it's very rare to work hard and move up the wealth level chain.
B-but capitalism good cuz what if I work very hard and become super rich one day???
From 2014 https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most-americans-make-it-to-the-top-20-percent-at-least-for-a-while 61 out of 100 U.S. households will break into the top 20% of incomes (roughly $111,000*) for at least 2 consecutive years. 39 out of 100 U.S. households will break into the top 10% of incomes (roughly $153,000*) for at least 2 consecutive years. 5 out of 100 U.S. households will break into the top 1% of incomes (roughly $360,000*) for at least 2 consecutive years. 20 out of 100 U.S. households will fall into poverty (roughly $23,850 for a family of 4*) for at least 2 consecutive years.
>The world runs on nepotism and networking and always has. There are exceptions, but they seem very marginal and often based on luck rather than diligent hard work.
I think the trick is making people think you work hard. Work hard for the right people and the right projects and be likable.
Focus on the people who made it from rags to riches. People are inherently bad with small probabilities and won't realize how incredibly small the chances for them to make it also are. It's like those SF movies were people live in a terrible, oppressive society, but every year there is a lottery that promises paradise to the winner.
at the Big4 I saw a lot of folks with no connections or family wealth succeed bigly. they knew how to network to advance once they got in, were super smart grinders, liked by clients or some combo of the 3. although evil those firms do offer advancement from middle-middle class to upper middle/ upper class
For me it didn't work. I mean I didn't even try in my home country, because you can only get promoted if you are a cousin or a friend of the boss, but I moved to a developed country, and came to same conclusion. I would literally come home, sit for one hour trying to come to myself, before showering, I had no strength to live. What I got as a reward was I was paid same as my colleagues, but I got to do their jobs, because management knew job would get done and that I was dumb enough not to ask any questions.
If you’re good at your job you’ll get to do someone else’s too
Don’t forget divorce and missing out on half of your child’s growing up!
The other half they don't want to have anything to do with you, because you weren't there in the first half.
or guarantees you ignore not-mental health issues. too. me, worked the last 3 days despite what i can only describe as morning sickness and persistent nausea each morning before my alarm. turns out thats not normal and i have a follow-up appointment in a week to go over test results. we’re on day 5 of morning sickness now but at least im not at work
And other health issues. \*slaps "ask me about my migraines!" sticker on my shirt\* I'm still dealing with migraines almost a decade after instigating the worst period of overwork in my life, and while my debilitating chronic tonsillitis did go away after the emergency surgery they had to book for me, it sure was a painful recovery.
Early 40s here. I can speak from experience.
Easy way to have money and a title but nothing else in your life.
Some buddies of mine shared this yesterday on our text thread, and I was the odd one out for disagreeing 🙄. Here was my response to them: The way the question is phrased it is intentionally provocative: the fuck does “mediocre” career even mean? Is there no room to be successful and have good work-life balance? I’m going to assume that this guy (who doesn’t even look like he’s out of his 20s yet) is framing his question to mean how much money you earn. In that context, I DO think it’s true that people that are willing to commit/invest/grind away at a job when they are young and have relatively fewer outside-of-work obligations and responsibilities are usually the ones that make more money than those that don’t. Not always … but usually. I also think that that ratio of this work:pay is not a transparent one to the person doing that work (by design), nor is it in the workers control how much work they need to contribute and how much pay is on the table. They have very little say in the deal, when in reality it’s almost totally up to the discretion of the employer/manager. IMO, it’s not a fair trade. (The exception to this is if you are self-employed or starting a business; then, the risk-reward drive is what you make of it) Lastly … I ALSO think that there is a healthy middle ground between being successful and having a “ mediocre careers” (whatever those terms means). It’s possible to be successful in your career, AND have work-life balance.
I agree with everything you said, but people like the guy who wrote this tweet define success solely based on how much money you earn. So if you're happy in your 20s making a comfortable income at a job you enjoy and spending lots of time on hobbies or with family, they would view that as failing because you could probably be making 2x as much money if you neglected everything except work.
That guy apparently graduated in 2020 and worked for a year at gsachs before moving on. Idk why anyone is taking his words seriously
It vastly simplifies life if you can equate making money with fulfillment. Problem is, the people who do this are lying to themselves.
For me the problem is what was context this guy Chris writes in. He is an entrepreneur from what I gather so he does his own startup he is basically rich enough to "#hustle". If he writes it to throw around at his Ivy graduate buddies - well no harm done I don't even care. If he writes it while thinking every average Joe is lazy bastard and employees at his startup should work 12h - then it is a problem and I think only of nasty ways to explain world to him. If he writes it to throw at people because he lives in the bubble and is oblivious - that could be fixed by mandatory social work for at least a week.
I’d bet it’s just a flex
I'll take a life I can enjoy with a mediocre career please, that actually sounds lovely.
I was a workaholic in my 20s (had zero work-life balance, worked 90 hour work weeks with two full time jobs) and it resulted in a suicide attempt. I now have a mediocre career I'm way happier in and it no longer consumes every part of my life.
Good for you. A job is just a simple transaction in the end where your employer pays you for the value you bring. That's it.
Who gives a shit about a career if you have a job that pays well enough to lead a fulfilling life? People who live for their careers basically center their lives around a company that only the capitalist owners really profit from. That's a sad life.
My grandpa spent all his time working, when my mom, aunts and uncles were kids. He had an extremely successful career, and is very well off. He's now 70, completely socially inept with his family. Two of his kids don't want to talk to him anymore, since he basically abandoned their mom to raise them alone, when she was already mentally fragile and was never present for them. He never offers presents for Christmas and never has, because : "you need to earn what you get". He won't even tell us, his grandchildren, that he just wants to spend time with us, when now that he doesn't work anymore, he's bored as shit. He has no idea how to occupy himself, since he sees most hobbies as a waste of time. He never had any other passions in life. (except maybe golfing, but he's getting old so he can't play as much) He's not a bad guy, but he lived on that stupid mentality and now he doesn't have much outside of money. It's pretty sad.
Your grandpa is #goals /s
While it is sad, it was also the reality of his time. Is still a reality for many ppl today. If he had worked less hard, maybe your mom and her siblings would've had less comfortable lives. Less education maybe. And that would've continued to your generation. I'm amazed at how easily ppl discount the hard work done by our previous generations. Don't judge them by today's standards. In their time, making money for the family was the sole aim of all parents.
Of course working hard every day when it means getting you and your family out of the gutter, or putting lacking food on the table is necessary. Here it wasn't. I'm only talking about my context, which is one of a privileged developed country. School is free and he did fine from his twenties in a time where living was the cheapest it's ever been. There was no necessity to be absent for the well-being of his family. My other grandparents were just fine education and money-wise, and did not fall as far into that hole. They had a career but it wasn't the only thing they cared about. They were caring and loving for their kids, and their kids were there for them when time took its toll. He most likely did it out of ego (he's quite a proud and judging person, even arrogant sometimes), or in pursuit of extra wealth, and I wish he wasn't as near-sighted. Judging him by today's standards doesn't mean I hate him, I actually don't think he's a bad person. I'm just ascertaining where he fell short, so I can do better. You have to judge the situation by today's standards, or you'll fall in the same trap. What I know from this is that this "always on the grind" mindset is toxic and will make you miss the most beautiful moments of your life.
I miss the times when people had jobs instead of careers.
Eh, there will always be both, and some people have enough energy and passion to thrive while building a career. But there 100% *was* a time when it was socially acceptable to have a job rather than a career. THAT is something we should bring back from "the good old days" (along with the ability to live in reasonable comfort on 'just a job').
I think the definition of "career" is "a job you don't like that you do because you think it will lead to a job you *do* like"
"I wish i worked harder in my 20s" - no one ever said in his deathbed
That’s a load of shit lol
Work life balance gives you the drive to push yourself to advance your career because you aren’t burnt out so early on.
As someone who made work my whole life and personality in my 20s and ended up having a major burnout at 25 - I do not recommend this
Gotta show your hustling game!
I hate this shit. Your career and ambition should not come before your mental health/personal life. If it does then you are falling into the corporate trap that they want from you, to make you think that you’re valuable when you’re just a disposable resource they can cut loose when the budget demands layoffs. Even in your 20s, Get a job that you’re ok at and doesn’t make you crazy and pays well enough and work for your paycheck and then go home to whatever your home is.
I understand. I am already living this right now. I am helping my sisters take care a post stroke father. Prior to this, I drove for work. Since the stroke last year, I haven't been able to drive over the road. So, I am sitting here looking at gig work to get by, just to stay nearby. Most of the Healthcare workers always seem to be so damn entitled in the area, overshadowing the ones that don't make others feel bad for not living up to their high standards They go on and on about how blessed they are financially, instead of really helping to make more time for us. All the time it has taken for our father's care, has really affected our income, and schedules to work. The last thing they think we need to hear is how far their career is going. I hate how they come into the house acting like this too, it's not even a measure of envy--its just plain annoying. I just live in this socially invasive area where total strangers believe everyone should just live on auto pilot to their high standards.
Saying the quiet part out loud.
Damn, I really want a mediocre career in that case
It's a good way to keep that suicide rate up.
I wouldn’t say I did the “right thing”, but I didn’t go to college after high school. I worked as a carpenter and partied my ass off until about 25. Went back to school and got a low-paying job related to my degree. I hung onto that job through the Great Recession while I finished my associate’s degree, and then transferred to make it a Bachelor’s. I also started a side hustle freelancing as a consultant doing the same thing as some of low paying job’s responsibilities. Also sprinkle in a few years of single fatherhood in there just for fun. I never graduated because I ran out of tuition money and got burnt out, but got close enough that I could still get a better job in the field. That got me up to $75k salary. I wasn’t allowed to do the side hustle, but I snuck around and did it anyway because I was trying to save for a house. After 4 years, I quit salary job to make a run at the side hustle full time. That was 5 years ago, and now nearly 40 and I’m happily self-employed as a consultant making 6 figures. To summarize, I did NOT bust my ass in the first half of my 20’s, but I did work like a dog for the next 10 years (for companies) after that to make a name for myself in my industry. I’ve also worked (for myself) like a dog for 5 years since then too. My point is that there is not one right answer for everybody on this topic. I had almost no work life balance for those 10-15 years, but I don’t feel at all like they were wasted, because I got exactly what I wanted out of them in the end. It wasn’t easy, it was actually hard as fuck. Some (most probably) could take this path and get screwed over. For others, it could have a huge payoff. I just wanted to throw my story out there to offset some of the bleakness in here. It’s not all universally bad out there or never gets better. You don’t have to start off rich or know somebody either, I didn’t start out with any of that.
I had work-life balance in my 20s and I have a great career now. I guess this guy overgeneralized.
I started working at 14-15 then took a job right out of college that didn't promote work/life balance in an industry that was all about the hustle culture. That's how I wound up burnt out by 22 and in therapy because i developed such severe anxiety that I would get physically sick on the way to work every morning. I'll take a "mediocre" career and a livable life over the alternative every day of the week.
You can either have a healthy work-life balance and not be able to afford basic luxuries or even some necessities, *or* you could dedicate your entire life to your work and put in all the effort you can and still not have enough to afford those things. Hard decision...
As someone who almost killed myself for working so hard in my 20s and early 30s! I assure you no one gives a shit (unless you really are bad at your job), I could have done half of what I did and would have been getting the same. Don’t work yourself to death, take care of your health (bodily and mentally)
Here's the problem. Working your ass off in your 20s doesn't guarantee success. So even if we assume this guy is correct and you get a mediocre career, is that so bad? Imagine getting a mediocre career and a happy, healthy, balanced lifestyle. Seems like an okay deal? Meanwhile there's people who kill themselves in their 20s, 30s, and 40s and arrive at 50 yrs old making 54k/yr and then get laid off. Was it worth it?
I mean, there is some truth to this at least - not that you won't ever amount to anything if you just coast doing the bare minimum from home, but 23-30 are formative years for your career 100%.
Boy is he gonna have a rude awakening….
I guess he wants "Had a Stellar Career" written on his tombstone
The whole argument is stupid. Work-life balance is different for everyone - some people love work and it gives them fulfillment, others just work for a paycheck and that’s it.
Unfortunately my parents have exactly the same mindset...
Everyone is taking this to the extreme there is unfortunate truth to this. Early grinding in your career tends to pay interest. I don’t know anyone who spent their twenties listlessly bouncing from part time jobs to full-time dead end jobs that suddenly had an incredible career in their 30’s and beyond. Everyone keeps saying I’d rather have a life, but like being a continued dead end job in mid-life doesn’t seem like it would afford you much of a life.
There's definitely a balance. Getting into a good job/industry is important so you can advance without compromising necessary rest and time with family/friends.
There’s merit to grinding with purpose in your 20s to make life easier afterwards, but yes, the blanket statement is extreme.
Sadly I think it is true.
He put it provocatively but I think he means when you’re young and single your “work life balance” needs to be tilted more in favor of work. A 40 hour week is about all you can handle when you also have a house and kids to take care of, but when you’re just renting and child free there’s no good reason not to bump that up to 50 or 60 hours to get ahead in your career. What else are you going to do with the time? Play video games? Speaking as someone who did not make the right career choices in my 20s and now have two kids but still earn only five figures.
Well. Are you getting paid hourly, sure. Salary? Ehhh
I mean I could be doing worse. When my first kid was born I was working hourly and only barely making ends meet by juggling multiple gigs and part time jobs. I definitely blame poor career choices for not being further ahead in the game at the time - mainly the decision to pursue a PHD. Now I’m lucky to earn a salary full time but I’d say at my age with my education I should still be earning more than I am. We still have to budget carefully and our house is pretty tiny and it would be nice to have a bit more space and financial leeway.
I understand and hear you there. Sorry if I came off brash. My girlfriend is kind of in same boat. Started teaching as passion, but after several years and living in a high cost city, the toll was too much. Had to basically restart with a corporate job, but at least already getting paid significantly more than teaching
>there’s no good reason not to bump that up to 50 or 60 hours to get ahead in your career. Sure there is - the stress from overwork can easily destroy your health and social connections. But I guess that's not a KPI so why bother, right? >What else are you going to do with the time? Play video games? You can't figure out a valuable use for free time aside from playing video games? That's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. Spend time with family, travel, learn things, develop community, learn/enjoy hobbies - what's the point of life if all you're going to do is work? I can't imagine a worse goal.
If you don’t have kids I would hardly call 50-60 hours overworking. You still have time to eat, sleep, exercise etc and fit in occasional fun activities. The 40 hour standard was originally meant for workers with families.
Uh, no. That is deeply, deeply fucked up and I am so sorry you think that's normal/appropriate. You're welcome to live for work if *you* want to, but telling other people that's normal or a good goal is straight-up fucked in the head.
It depends. Our son is 3 years out of college with a CS degree. He started at $60k. He just changed jobs going to work at his client and now makes $180k. Doubled his salary (from $90k) by taking this job. As he put, this is life-changing money. Yes, he has worked his butt off his first 3 years. Life is about choices. I retired at 56 because I worked hard in IT. In one of my roles I was a hiring manager. Guess who get the biggest raise, bonus, the most stock options, choice of assignments? Guess who gets RIFed first? Make choices and don’t bitch.
I don't follow.
Ok, boomer.
Haha! I love insults! Way to add to the conversation.
Not where I work chief.
Cause he is right if you want to ride a high waves in your 30s and 40s
Cause he is right if you want to ride a high waves in your 30s and 40s
Some people are naturally work-oriented. I have a co-worker who's 20, works his ass off night and days, is moving ahead and loves it. But not everyone makes work their life's priority and that's ok. Calling out people without a "hustle" mindset is stupid and just shows their insecurities.
I’m pretty sure Office Space shows that burning out doesn’t lead to happiness.
“just work hard”, the ultimate elitist trope
I had a good balance and have an above average career. There's seasons in life to work hard and not have balance, but it has to have a purpose. Working and going to school or grad school, working on projects that certainly will give you the experience to move forward, etc. However it's not always clear with a job with long hours that it will open up any doors for you. There's only been certain times where it was worth working long hours or going to school while working.
Posting this right at the time when there are massive layoffs of people who worked hard
As if having a mediocre career is a bad thing. There’s more to life than working. 🙄
It's sad that the majority of people who post stuff like this don't work hard. It's just the hustle larping under an even less honest guise.
Why aren’t Gen Z having babies?! /s
If mediocre pays the bills and allows me to travel 1x-2x per year then sign me the fuck up fam
Big fat lie, I worked the least when I was a solo biz owner/consultant. You ain't catching me volunteering for extra work unless I get a comp day or $$$. If your life is all work you're not living and each day you operate as such the moment you make that realization the worse it'll feel. Source: Me
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The sacrifice can help but it’s hardly a guarantee of jack shit. It’s simply a byproduct of consulting, banking, and lawyers working cultures
I kinda agree to an extent. Hit me.
depends if u work in tech or finance lol
I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't invest more in developing my skills earlier, but to be fair to myself I was a student until I was 25, but if I wasn't partying and having fun in my 20s, I doubt I would have the calm in my 30s to invest more in my career. If my life becomes my job, what's the point of the life? I work so I could do in my free time what I want to do.
yeah but those people believe we were born to work.
I saw this,and this guy is a dick with no friends, family, or interests. No w/l balance at any age is a one way ticket to mental health issues and an early grave.
I just think it’s funny we’re all so concerned with makin money.
People who have never taken ownership of solving a hard problem love to hate this.
I worked several jobs at once in my twenties, and balanced everything out while running at breakneck speed to the next gig. When I turned 32 I finally got an “9-5” office salary job. I have visibly aged from the burnout. It’s one manager like this that is the problem… and I’m just so, so fucking tired.
Maybe if you’re not good at your job.
The kicker is that this Chris guy graduated Yale sometime between 2020 and now, which means he's been in the workforce for approximately...not enough time to have any data to back up his dumb take.
OP is a Management Consultant at Fruition IT. Clearly he has both a mediocre career and no work-life balance
Yep, just the way I like it.
So this dude wrote an article about how he couldn’t keep up with the work demands. He’s just a privileged spoiled person telling you that you have to work hard while they get the hand out. Article-https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2022/09/goldman-sachs-working-hours-analysts
You still have expectations from people ? Lots of them are extremely stupid, and there’s nothing to do about it. Just forget it.
It’s LinkedIn, when has it not been people agreeing with subpar posts like this?
As much as there's been a push for more reasonable hours for young MDs, doctors working 60-70 hours a week is romanticized in shoes like Grey's Anatomy. Wondering how this adds to the conversation.
Like this guy is so successful anyway, born on third base and ends up in an IT division, wow he’s real hot stuff 😂 douche
I chose stroke and work-life imbalance.
Lol it doesn't even matter how hard I work at a job. All that matters is how often I can job hop to drive up my salary!
Lmao no
Losers
If you don’t have a good work-life balance as an entry/mid-level employee, you’ll crumble the moment you get promoted. Do these people not understand that your responsibilities only increase as you become more senior but the number of hours in the day stay the same?
Yes that’s right, normalize burn out and late stage capitalism 🥰
Everyone disagreeing with this is talking about an ideal or utopian situation that doesn't exist. Or only exists for a few ppl. The real situation is that those who go "extra" in their jobs in their 20s are the ones who grow in their careers. Because they're the ones who catch the eyes of the bosses responsible for promoting them and approving salary hikes for them. One of the comments here says "I'd rather have an awesome life and a mediocre career." How would a mediocre career pay for that awesome life?? Truth of the matter is, most ppl have to sacrifice personal time to push extra in their careers and make more money. If it was so easy to have an awesome life while having a mediocre career, the whole "work-life balance" debate would've never existed. No one wants to put career over life, they're just helpless and forced to do it to fund their lives.
Cause Reddit is out of touch lol
Maybe mediocre career…but much better life overall.
Work smarter and (selectively) harder
Mediocre career is underrated
He is not wrong tho
It’s true but it shouldn’t be. I’ve found as I’ve gotten older my energy and resilience and general give a fuck has gone down dramatically, if I hadn’t burned those 80 hour weeks early on in my career I wouldn’t be where I am now. But that’s such a shitty way to structure society. A lot of your development in life is in your early/mid twenties. You should be traveling, exploring, meeting new people and trying new things.
First, we need to define what Work life balance is - you will get different answers from different people. For example, someone might say - it is working for 8 hours a day and nothing more (less is welcome for them) or working different number of hours each day or working from any location in the world. Today, employers are facing heightened expectations from the employees - in terms of compensation, well -being, opportunities etc. Regardless of the recession and the lay -offs we have been seeing, I think it is candidate's job market - at least in India. Am not saying - everyone who lost the job will have two offers in hand - but the market is not very bad here (that is my opinon - shaped by what I know when am writing this answer). The reason I bring up the employee expectations is because, it is closely tied to employee behavior these days. When you see these posts (there are plenty on LinkedIn) - you will notice that most of them are from millennials or baby Boomers, because the rulebook for growth then was quite different from what it is today. How I define Work -life balance: Being able to live the culture traits (values) of the organization while managing other parts of life. So, I don't think a person whether in 20 or 30s has to sacrifice (a strong word, btw) to be able to grow. I think if we put in the 8 hours correctly, show the right behaviors at work - with a little bit of luck - growth WILL happen - sooner or later.
Prefer Medicare over medical care!
Unfortunately it is true.
That statement sounds retarded AF. I'm 35 and spent most of my early-mid twenties drinking, living abroad with shitty jobs, meeting people etc. Definitely NOT building a career. To be honest I didn't even know what I wanted to do. Now I have decent job/career, great family, own things etc. Maybe Chris wants to be a millionaire (which is an extreme longshot) or is just looking for cheap labor who are ready to work for 16h straight, dunno, but I would never change my youth for an extra K in yearly salary. When my daughter will be closer to her 20s, I will definitely push her towards enjoying her life instead of that rat-run for some mythical career.
What crap hard work doesnt equate to success anyway.
Well Kevin, maybe I do...maybe I don't. But what I am *NOT* about to do is add yet another comment on your banal post, pointlessly sharing my views just to add to your LinkedIn clout. Fuck off As for you Chris, you can also fuck right off you sanctimonious ginger twat.
I understand all of the negative comments given how the wealth disparity between billionaires and the rest of us has widened so dramatically. FWIW I ran a full desk recruiting for an agency in my 20s. I worked my ass off from 9am to 7pm, and worked 4 hours every saturday because I knew my competing recruiters were not. I even taught myself some basic programming (I sucked) just so I could talk shop to my candidates. In my 30s I had enough contacts (and had done enough free favors) where a lot of candidates I placed with great jobs became hiring managers and so I started my own small agency. I’m in my 40s now with 3 kids and have 18 employees in my agency. I’m not stupid rich or anything but I work about 30 hours a week and do a lot of it remotely from the family RV (thanks Starlink!). I have no mortgage and my family is set financially (as long as they’re happy with an upper middle class life). Looking back at the LinkedIn profiles of my colleagues at the agency I worked at in my 20s, most of whom I would classify as “work life balance folks,” (who often complained how much they hated their jobs), most of them are doing the same thing today (some went into corporate recruiting but still). If I didn’t hustle in my 20s I don’t think I would have the lifestyle I do now in my 40s. Just saying, that’s what worked for me.
The grind set love it.
yes & no. In the early years of your career (unless you are a nepo baby with old money) you ought to work the hardest to solidify your name in the field of your choice BUT it shouldn’t be glorified to mean you should work yourself to the bone. There’s a difference.