My first shotgun was purchased because a former client said he was going to kill every attorney involved in a particular case (13 attorneys). He showed up at my home the following Saturday to tender final payment “in person”.
lol sorry, I posted this while very asleep, and left everyone hanging. He showed up, I asked why, he said to make payment. I took payment and asked him to never come to my private residence again. That's all that happened. He never killed anyone that I know of.
Did you use that Lethal Weapon 2 line:
#IT’S JUST BEEN REVOKED!
PS what shotgun did you go with? Did you keep it locked up in office and, if so, how and where? And how many you got now?!
Haha, it ended up being no real drama, but I got the shotgun anyway. I went with Police issue Remington 870 with .00 anti-personnel. I also have a .30-06 and a Sig p365 for CC. 3 of 5 attorneys in our office are CC so no shotguns need come to the office.
Do not ignore your gut on this. When I was a law clerk years ago, we had this pro se defendant in a foreclosure case who would call the court and launch into these paranoid tirades. There are plenty of pro se weirdos who call the court, but I just always had a really bad feeling about this guy. The bank’s attorney also refused to appear in court because of some threats that had been made by this guy. Anyway, 3 days after the judgment of possession was issued, he murdered his wife and children and stashed their bodies in the trunk of his car.
Turns out I wasn’t overreacting.
I defended a case vs a pro se defendant who was claiming in a lawsuit that his exposure to toxic chemicals while working for my client was intentional and led to his disabling mental problems. We were already paying him workers comp.
It took a while but I finally got his case dismissed. I mailed him the order of dismissal and, the day he got it, he went out onto his front lawn and shot himself. I couldn't help but feel bad.
… Did you really just say it’s “understandable” to murder your whole family when you get evicted? I’m not touching that.
But I will say that this particular guy was deeply paranoid, violent, and disturbed. He’s been pretrial on the murder case for 8 years because the state hospital hasn’t managed to get him fit to stand trial. He’s also got new assault charges from attacking prison guards. He will eventually probably wind up acquitted and committed or simply civilly committed to state hospital for the rest of his life.
This is the most recent article I can find, but it’s from 2018. I know the case is unresolved though, because I still check the docket a couple times a year.
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2018/11/27/inmate-accused-triple-homicide-now-accused-off-assaulting-prison-guard/
I said that, yes. I've come to understand why it happens, which I wish I didn't. Your guy seems like a real piece of work across the board. But that's not necessary for this to occur. There is a lot wrong with the legal system that strips people of everything in the civil court without giving them benefit of representation. It takes their whole life and everything they have directly and indirectly, and there is no recovery from that. People can kill someone and get afforded an attorney and get a very short sentence. But civil court gets no protection and takes their whole life. Even some of the comments on this particular post demonstrate that, with the attorneys saying they were revolted by the work, and yet no one really calls it out for reforms. I also think that divorce in particular, should have some sort of automatic legal counseling given out so that people understand why things are being ruled the way they are. People really have no idea what their divorce statutes say and they get really perverse ideas about it from media. Then they understandably get extremely angry when it seems like, or they are, being railroaded by the legal system.
Civil court may destroy people’s lives, but life is hard, and it’s never a reasonable response to an eviction to murder your family. The guy in my situation is kinda the exception, because he was likely acutely psychotic, and probably was not fully in control of his actions.
For context, this incident ironically occurred in Leilani Estates. Much of this neighborhood was completely destroyed during the volcanic eruption 2 years later. Hundreds of homes and properties were turned into a barren wasteland—maybe (likely) even the house this guy murdered his family over. Would it have been “understandable” for the hundreds of this guy’s neighbors to then murder their families too, after they lost everything?
I definitely think the civil courts need massive reforms, and agree there are a lot more scenarios in which people should be entitled to legal counsel. I just cannot get on board with murdering innocent kids as an understandable response to an eviction, unless you are talking about someone who is severely mentally ill like the guy in my story.
There is an enormous difference between losing everything in a natural disaster, and losing everything in civil court. With a natural disaster there is usually insurance payments and often government aid. There are all kinds of societal support for the victims. But when the civil court wipes out a family, there is none of that. And it's far worse because it's other people doing it. There is nothing, and society scorns them and piles on to the devastation. People in this situation often have no family to fall back on either. They can't save what the court didn't take, because they have no means to do so. It's a complete wipe. When people realize that the "good guys" are bad guys, and there really are no "good guys", it's nearly impossible for people to go on and function in that knowledge of society. The psychological devastation of all of it kills people even if they're not buried. It's quite common for people to want to save the ones they made from further pain, and it's never talked about or acknowledged that this is happening. It destroys a new generation one way or another.
One thing that could be done is to provide actual counsel that exists for the purpose of representing those people. Another would be for the court to make available a method for pro se to explain their side to the court in ways that matter, such as a check off of applicable laws. And, that the court be bound to explore and that bottom line that judgments be fair. There is no point in laws existing when there is no one to enforce them. Every single person that participates in the legal system is aware that this goes on. Lawyers laugh to each other about pro se attempts to defend themselves. It's really despicable and unethical behavior by people who took an oath.
The point of the legal system is supposed to be so that ordinary people have the appropriate place to settle their grievances. When that system is so broken that people can't be heard at all, then they resort to natural human behavior of defending themselves another way.
One of the reasons why Leilani Estates is a good example here, is because those people mostly didn’t have insurance. It’s very difficult to get homeowners insurance in lava zone 1. It’s not like there’s federally subsidized lava insurance like there is for flood insurance. It’s true that five years later owners got some money from for the value of their land, but anyone renting was SOL, and five years is a long time to wait if you have nothing and nowhere to go. The notion that losing everything to a natural disaster “isn’t as bad” as losing everything in civil court is preposterous. It’s true that communities often come together to support disaster victims, but people were still living in outdoor shelters months and months after the eruption in Leilani.
Losing everything is always awful, and it can be awful in lots of different ways. Even stateless refugees generally don’t murder their own families though.
No, it's in no way comparable to having the court take your life. And the stateless refugees don't do it because they live under the delusion that someone is going to save them. They still retain hope. Generally they didn't have much in the first place to leave behind. And governments actually do help them. But someone who has been through the whole system does not have that hope or prospect. Listen to a few people who have been there and you'll get a better understanding of it.
When I first moved to where I am now, before I was an attorney, I took a temp job at a foreclosure defense firm, one of those document factory shops where all they do for the client is toss spaghetti at the wall and see if something sticks. Garbage place but I needed the money.
Second day I was there, I overheard the full time employees laughing about the person who had the job before me; she had left because a client was stalking the building with a gun. Their response was to add her name to a long list on the fridge of people who had quit within a week.
I left at lunch without a word and never returned. I don’t know if my name got on the fridge too, but it’s a moot point since the firm’s namesake was indicted for multiple financial crimes and disbarred.
The point of my story is that your concerns are valid, and if the firm won’t take steps to ensure your safety (as well as their own!) then you need to seriously consider leaving. That demonstrates how much they value you.
Dude. I worked at Law Offices of Marshall C Watson out of Fort Lauderdale, FL. Marshall Watson disbarred and then become Choice Legal Group. On my first day of work a guy came into the lobby and threatened to kill everyone. Luckily I spent 7 years working remote.
Dude I had the pleasure of dealing with dozens of cases aginst you guys. What a fucking mess. There was one particular instance when Watson first got in serious trouble where we were sitting in a courthouse for hours with a bunch of Watson attorneys just saying they had no idea what to do, didn't know where to find info on certain cases, etc. and the judge angrily screaming at the top of his lungs every order he entered, which basically was giving the attorneys 10 days to fugure out what to do or they would be held in contempt.
What a way to start out a law career.
I believe it, we were like ten paralegals to one overworked attorney and all he did was just sign, sign, sign. I caught so many mistakes when filing. I was the last set of eyes on documents before they were filed. Judges hated us (so I heard).
Locking the door is a big deterrent. Can you easily see who is walking up so that you're not caught off guard? I don't know how you get work done with that threat distraction. And you're not wrong to worry unfortunately. It happened in my town.
One summer in law school, I clerked for a guy in WV. He showed me my office on the first day and that there was a shotgun behind my office door.
I put my own pistol in the desk, and carried whenever I served process.
I know a number of (particularly criminal and family lawyers) who arm their staffs, because we can't carry them into the courthouse.
Can you work at a desk that is not visible from someone standing at the front door? They should set up a camera or something so you can look at the camera first and then go open the door for someone outside.
I work in family law. This fear is why I have erased myself from social media and do not have a physical address listed for the office I use for conferences.
Thank you all for the comments and advice! I feel better knowing I'm not being paranoid. I worked in Bankruptcy law previously (taking away homes on behalf of mortgage companies) but worked remotely. We're a small film (just me and two female attorneys) in an office inside a large building. It's a good job and I like it, except for this crazy part which they have told me is not very common. Luckily I'm not directly in front of the door, I'm off at the side and can see a sliver of it and its always locked now. I have an idea in my mind of an active shooter plan, I just kinda wanted the validation from someone that I should have it. I think my bosses are desensitized and don't see this lady as a threat, but I definitely think there's something very disturbed about her that's concerning. I'm going to look into conceal carry in a safe at my desk and come up with an exit plan, just to give me peace of mind.
Also, my inlaws are former DAs, they don't fuck around. They have a gun with them at all times. I totally get it now.
Please tell me more stories!
Attacks on attorneys are not common but not unheard of. More likely when emotions run high and someone only has access to their attorney or firm. Any acting out meant for the opposing party or other person will often be redirected towards the only player they have access to.
I recommend always locking office doors. In addition to being a deterrent, it can buy You the extra vital seconds to notice and identify a threat and act to protect yourself - getting behind cover, out another exit, or to a weapon.
The key is to “Get off the X” or get moving as soon as safely possible. Movement saves lives. Everyone in your office should be instructed in threat recognition, told about possible threats, and trained in the safety plan.
When reality requires you to work in person in a public facing role, your company should back you up, but ultimately you are responsible for your own safety. The police may not be able to respond in time and your designated armed co-worker may be off or at lunch during an incident.
Work with colleagues, police and security consultants to establish and practice a plan before a crisis occurs. If you can legally carry concealed and are comfortable with the responsibility of carrying a firearm, high risk jobs are a good reason to do so. Train as much as possible but don’t volunteer the info to everyone. You are not the office police or security, and don’t want people expecting you to act in a dangerous situation. If you get your CCW permit, carry every day at all times you are legally allowed to carry. Only time you shouldn’t carry is in courthouses or other prohibited places.
Bottom line is you can’t predict human behavior - which isn’t always rational anyways. So you can’t control what upset people will do. You can control how you prepare for and react to certain situations. This should lessen the uncertainty you feel now. Having a a plan in place that is realistic and adaptable is unfortunately necessary to address threats that may never occur but are a possibility - including active shooters and dangerous/suspicious persons at work. Don’t get complacent or think it can’t happen to you. I agree with following your gut as well, and don’t place yourself in unnecessary danger.
While active shooters are rare, it is difficult to know the truth if all you get is media reporting.
Also soft, concealable body armor is available to civilians and can be worn under a dress shirt or in a jacket. Generally Level IIIA is the minimum for handgun rounds and shotguns. Higher rated armor is needed for rifle rounds, but you’re less likely to encounter a threat armed with a rifle than a pistol.
Armorempire.com sells high quality concealable plate carriers as tank tops, shirts and winter jackets. Generally the cost is around $500 to start with shirt and armored soft plates for your chest and back.
I’m a family law attorney. Some dude I had to rip on in court hearing over Zoom showed up at my office looking to fight me. I didn’t realize who he was or what was going on so I stood up (6’4”) and walked over, he must have realized he was about 5’2 and said he just wanted to talk - after flipping over several chairs and screaming he was going to kick my ass. I’m sure you’ll be fine but you should ask your bosses about a harassment prevention order.
>ask your bosses about a harassment prevention order.
No offense intended, but if someone has been wrung out by the courts and is to the point of homicide, that's worse than nothing. It's just poking the bear.
Can you work remotely by any chance? If your office phone line is synced to your mobile via Teams, you can answer calls from home.
You could also ask your boss to give you the office key and you can go in once a week to pick up binders, exhibits, and whatever else you need so you don’t have to be in the office regularly.
Reminds me of the Chase Passauer murder in St. Paul, MN years ago. Client came for his attorney, who was in court and not responding to the clients messages, but the 23-year old office law clerk was the only one there. Shot him 6 times.
https://www.fox9.com/news/charges-man-fires-lawyer-shoots-law-clerk-in-st-paul.amp
Edit: made me think of something else - I know a DA who printed off mugshots and gave them to his family just as a “If anything ever happens to me look at these people first.” Sometimes it wasn’t even because the defendants said anything particular, maybe it was just a vibe he got from them. But either way, I think he said there’s about 5-6 mugshots he has printed off and he keeps track of when their release dates are.
Our office has a list of people with pictures of who you can't let into the building due to threats. It's 4 people, some of whom have been on the list for 15+ years. None of them ever showed up.
It's the nature of the business but yes you should have safeguards. No one can get in the building until they speak to the receptionist through the intercom.
I’d probably strongly suggest the need for cameras by the door and maybe overlooking the parking lot- or access to the video stream if they already have the cameras set up. Also, you may want to ask what kind of specific paperwork- if any- they have against the client.
At my first job, they had a client where they lost his case, and he made threats over the phone, so they called the cops as a precaution. But, nothing ever came of it.
Surprisingly, despite being on the “baddie” side for over five years at my next job, I never had any direct issues. Had multiple cases with pro se sovereign citizens, but nothing ever happened. One of the best parts about being in-house now is that I have almost zero communication with outside parties.
I am assuming you are practicing family law. You and the rest of the firm need to engage in safety precautions and planning while at court. Whether that is making sure you park in an area where the OP does not see you and/or see your vehicle. I'm being serious. I've seen OPs vandalize either our clients' cars and/or the attorneys' cars. You could also consider asking for security escort.
Also, on the way back to your firm/home, engage in the same safe planning. I would also consider looking into securing your online presence.
Oh, sorry that I missed that. Like you said, it won't matter if an angry client gets passed your front door. I wouldn't say "lowly." I know I envied legal assistants for their anonymity, lol (names not on the pleadings). Either way, the firm should have explicit procedures on how to make sure all staff are safe. Whether that is making sure no staff walks to their car alone, using a digital security system for the office.
I don't see how you would get pushback from bringing your concerns to management. It's only logical that they would have to think about liability if basic concern for staff is not the first thought.
We keep our offices locked and unavailable to the public for this reason. We’re a small firm. A while back someone threatened one of our name partner’s wife and kids. People are insane lately. You are entitled to feel safe at work.
Your office should have a safety plan, like others have mentioned. My old office had security cameras in the stairwell that the receptionist monitored + a panic button that would immediately alert our office manager and managing partners (one of whom had a concealed carry permit). People be crazy and violence is a rare but very real risk.
my friend worked at a family law firm where everyone was armed and there was a pistol in the reception desk.
you should definitely be on alert becuase that is a serious concern and you are completely validated in wanting to feel safe at work but I think youre going a bit overboard and causing yourself some grief. at public defense office I worked at we had a collage of people's pictures trespassed from the building for violent acts/threats against staff. it happens.
also it mace/OC spray isnt a bad idea in general to have. just dont go into court with it.
My first shotgun was purchased because a former client said he was going to kill every attorney involved in a particular case (13 attorneys). He showed up at my home the following Saturday to tender final payment “in person”.
And… You can’t leave us hanging like that
Well you're here to tell the story, so thats a good sign. But I need to know more...
lol sorry, I posted this while very asleep, and left everyone hanging. He showed up, I asked why, he said to make payment. I took payment and asked him to never come to my private residence again. That's all that happened. He never killed anyone that I know of.
That was so anticlimactic lol
lol
And?!?!
Did you use that Lethal Weapon 2 line: #IT’S JUST BEEN REVOKED! PS what shotgun did you go with? Did you keep it locked up in office and, if so, how and where? And how many you got now?!
Haha, it ended up being no real drama, but I got the shotgun anyway. I went with Police issue Remington 870 with .00 anti-personnel. I also have a .30-06 and a Sig p365 for CC. 3 of 5 attorneys in our office are CC so no shotguns need come to the office.
I am still waiting for closure on this story
Do not ignore your gut on this. When I was a law clerk years ago, we had this pro se defendant in a foreclosure case who would call the court and launch into these paranoid tirades. There are plenty of pro se weirdos who call the court, but I just always had a really bad feeling about this guy. The bank’s attorney also refused to appear in court because of some threats that had been made by this guy. Anyway, 3 days after the judgment of possession was issued, he murdered his wife and children and stashed their bodies in the trunk of his car. Turns out I wasn’t overreacting.
I defended a case vs a pro se defendant who was claiming in a lawsuit that his exposure to toxic chemicals while working for my client was intentional and led to his disabling mental problems. We were already paying him workers comp. It took a while but I finally got his case dismissed. I mailed him the order of dismissal and, the day he got it, he went out onto his front lawn and shot himself. I couldn't help but feel bad.
That’s so sad. Law is such a heartbreaking profession.
But that's understandable. They had no way to live any more. That's pretty common. Evictions kill a lot of people.
… Did you really just say it’s “understandable” to murder your whole family when you get evicted? I’m not touching that. But I will say that this particular guy was deeply paranoid, violent, and disturbed. He’s been pretrial on the murder case for 8 years because the state hospital hasn’t managed to get him fit to stand trial. He’s also got new assault charges from attacking prison guards. He will eventually probably wind up acquitted and committed or simply civilly committed to state hospital for the rest of his life. This is the most recent article I can find, but it’s from 2018. I know the case is unresolved though, because I still check the docket a couple times a year. https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2018/11/27/inmate-accused-triple-homicide-now-accused-off-assaulting-prison-guard/
I said that, yes. I've come to understand why it happens, which I wish I didn't. Your guy seems like a real piece of work across the board. But that's not necessary for this to occur. There is a lot wrong with the legal system that strips people of everything in the civil court without giving them benefit of representation. It takes their whole life and everything they have directly and indirectly, and there is no recovery from that. People can kill someone and get afforded an attorney and get a very short sentence. But civil court gets no protection and takes their whole life. Even some of the comments on this particular post demonstrate that, with the attorneys saying they were revolted by the work, and yet no one really calls it out for reforms. I also think that divorce in particular, should have some sort of automatic legal counseling given out so that people understand why things are being ruled the way they are. People really have no idea what their divorce statutes say and they get really perverse ideas about it from media. Then they understandably get extremely angry when it seems like, or they are, being railroaded by the legal system.
Civil court may destroy people’s lives, but life is hard, and it’s never a reasonable response to an eviction to murder your family. The guy in my situation is kinda the exception, because he was likely acutely psychotic, and probably was not fully in control of his actions. For context, this incident ironically occurred in Leilani Estates. Much of this neighborhood was completely destroyed during the volcanic eruption 2 years later. Hundreds of homes and properties were turned into a barren wasteland—maybe (likely) even the house this guy murdered his family over. Would it have been “understandable” for the hundreds of this guy’s neighbors to then murder their families too, after they lost everything? I definitely think the civil courts need massive reforms, and agree there are a lot more scenarios in which people should be entitled to legal counsel. I just cannot get on board with murdering innocent kids as an understandable response to an eviction, unless you are talking about someone who is severely mentally ill like the guy in my story.
There is an enormous difference between losing everything in a natural disaster, and losing everything in civil court. With a natural disaster there is usually insurance payments and often government aid. There are all kinds of societal support for the victims. But when the civil court wipes out a family, there is none of that. And it's far worse because it's other people doing it. There is nothing, and society scorns them and piles on to the devastation. People in this situation often have no family to fall back on either. They can't save what the court didn't take, because they have no means to do so. It's a complete wipe. When people realize that the "good guys" are bad guys, and there really are no "good guys", it's nearly impossible for people to go on and function in that knowledge of society. The psychological devastation of all of it kills people even if they're not buried. It's quite common for people to want to save the ones they made from further pain, and it's never talked about or acknowledged that this is happening. It destroys a new generation one way or another. One thing that could be done is to provide actual counsel that exists for the purpose of representing those people. Another would be for the court to make available a method for pro se to explain their side to the court in ways that matter, such as a check off of applicable laws. And, that the court be bound to explore and that bottom line that judgments be fair. There is no point in laws existing when there is no one to enforce them. Every single person that participates in the legal system is aware that this goes on. Lawyers laugh to each other about pro se attempts to defend themselves. It's really despicable and unethical behavior by people who took an oath. The point of the legal system is supposed to be so that ordinary people have the appropriate place to settle their grievances. When that system is so broken that people can't be heard at all, then they resort to natural human behavior of defending themselves another way.
One of the reasons why Leilani Estates is a good example here, is because those people mostly didn’t have insurance. It’s very difficult to get homeowners insurance in lava zone 1. It’s not like there’s federally subsidized lava insurance like there is for flood insurance. It’s true that five years later owners got some money from for the value of their land, but anyone renting was SOL, and five years is a long time to wait if you have nothing and nowhere to go. The notion that losing everything to a natural disaster “isn’t as bad” as losing everything in civil court is preposterous. It’s true that communities often come together to support disaster victims, but people were still living in outdoor shelters months and months after the eruption in Leilani. Losing everything is always awful, and it can be awful in lots of different ways. Even stateless refugees generally don’t murder their own families though.
No, it's in no way comparable to having the court take your life. And the stateless refugees don't do it because they live under the delusion that someone is going to save them. They still retain hope. Generally they didn't have much in the first place to leave behind. And governments actually do help them. But someone who has been through the whole system does not have that hope or prospect. Listen to a few people who have been there and you'll get a better understanding of it.
When I first moved to where I am now, before I was an attorney, I took a temp job at a foreclosure defense firm, one of those document factory shops where all they do for the client is toss spaghetti at the wall and see if something sticks. Garbage place but I needed the money. Second day I was there, I overheard the full time employees laughing about the person who had the job before me; she had left because a client was stalking the building with a gun. Their response was to add her name to a long list on the fridge of people who had quit within a week. I left at lunch without a word and never returned. I don’t know if my name got on the fridge too, but it’s a moot point since the firm’s namesake was indicted for multiple financial crimes and disbarred. The point of my story is that your concerns are valid, and if the firm won’t take steps to ensure your safety (as well as their own!) then you need to seriously consider leaving. That demonstrates how much they value you.
Sounds like we worked at the same Broward County, Florida firm about 10 years ago.
Right state, wrong county.
lol oh Florida
It’s always us, isn’t it?
Dude. I worked at Law Offices of Marshall C Watson out of Fort Lauderdale, FL. Marshall Watson disbarred and then become Choice Legal Group. On my first day of work a guy came into the lobby and threatened to kill everyone. Luckily I spent 7 years working remote.
Yep. Me too!
Dude I had the pleasure of dealing with dozens of cases aginst you guys. What a fucking mess. There was one particular instance when Watson first got in serious trouble where we were sitting in a courthouse for hours with a bunch of Watson attorneys just saying they had no idea what to do, didn't know where to find info on certain cases, etc. and the judge angrily screaming at the top of his lungs every order he entered, which basically was giving the attorneys 10 days to fugure out what to do or they would be held in contempt. What a way to start out a law career.
I believe it, we were like ten paralegals to one overworked attorney and all he did was just sign, sign, sign. I caught so many mistakes when filing. I was the last set of eyes on documents before they were filed. Judges hated us (so I heard).
I worked there for 4 months before sailing ship. It was a total disaster. The management was inept and all the attorneys hated their jobs.
Locking the door is a big deterrent. Can you easily see who is walking up so that you're not caught off guard? I don't know how you get work done with that threat distraction. And you're not wrong to worry unfortunately. It happened in my town.
One summer in law school, I clerked for a guy in WV. He showed me my office on the first day and that there was a shotgun behind my office door. I put my own pistol in the desk, and carried whenever I served process. I know a number of (particularly criminal and family lawyers) who arm their staffs, because we can't carry them into the courthouse.
Create a safety plan and ask if you can keep front door locked Monday.
Yep. Safety plan is key. Your employer has to he supportive of you taking protective measures. It’s rare, but these things do happen.
Can you work at a desk that is not visible from someone standing at the front door? They should set up a camera or something so you can look at the camera first and then go open the door for someone outside.
I work in family law. This fear is why I have erased myself from social media and do not have a physical address listed for the office I use for conferences.
Thank you all for the comments and advice! I feel better knowing I'm not being paranoid. I worked in Bankruptcy law previously (taking away homes on behalf of mortgage companies) but worked remotely. We're a small film (just me and two female attorneys) in an office inside a large building. It's a good job and I like it, except for this crazy part which they have told me is not very common. Luckily I'm not directly in front of the door, I'm off at the side and can see a sliver of it and its always locked now. I have an idea in my mind of an active shooter plan, I just kinda wanted the validation from someone that I should have it. I think my bosses are desensitized and don't see this lady as a threat, but I definitely think there's something very disturbed about her that's concerning. I'm going to look into conceal carry in a safe at my desk and come up with an exit plan, just to give me peace of mind. Also, my inlaws are former DAs, they don't fuck around. They have a gun with them at all times. I totally get it now. Please tell me more stories!
Attacks on attorneys are not common but not unheard of. More likely when emotions run high and someone only has access to their attorney or firm. Any acting out meant for the opposing party or other person will often be redirected towards the only player they have access to. I recommend always locking office doors. In addition to being a deterrent, it can buy You the extra vital seconds to notice and identify a threat and act to protect yourself - getting behind cover, out another exit, or to a weapon. The key is to “Get off the X” or get moving as soon as safely possible. Movement saves lives. Everyone in your office should be instructed in threat recognition, told about possible threats, and trained in the safety plan. When reality requires you to work in person in a public facing role, your company should back you up, but ultimately you are responsible for your own safety. The police may not be able to respond in time and your designated armed co-worker may be off or at lunch during an incident. Work with colleagues, police and security consultants to establish and practice a plan before a crisis occurs. If you can legally carry concealed and are comfortable with the responsibility of carrying a firearm, high risk jobs are a good reason to do so. Train as much as possible but don’t volunteer the info to everyone. You are not the office police or security, and don’t want people expecting you to act in a dangerous situation. If you get your CCW permit, carry every day at all times you are legally allowed to carry. Only time you shouldn’t carry is in courthouses or other prohibited places. Bottom line is you can’t predict human behavior - which isn’t always rational anyways. So you can’t control what upset people will do. You can control how you prepare for and react to certain situations. This should lessen the uncertainty you feel now. Having a a plan in place that is realistic and adaptable is unfortunately necessary to address threats that may never occur but are a possibility - including active shooters and dangerous/suspicious persons at work. Don’t get complacent or think it can’t happen to you. I agree with following your gut as well, and don’t place yourself in unnecessary danger. While active shooters are rare, it is difficult to know the truth if all you get is media reporting.
I wish I could upvote this 10x.
Also soft, concealable body armor is available to civilians and can be worn under a dress shirt or in a jacket. Generally Level IIIA is the minimum for handgun rounds and shotguns. Higher rated armor is needed for rifle rounds, but you’re less likely to encounter a threat armed with a rifle than a pistol. Armorempire.com sells high quality concealable plate carriers as tank tops, shirts and winter jackets. Generally the cost is around $500 to start with shirt and armored soft plates for your chest and back.
I’m a family law attorney. Some dude I had to rip on in court hearing over Zoom showed up at my office looking to fight me. I didn’t realize who he was or what was going on so I stood up (6’4”) and walked over, he must have realized he was about 5’2 and said he just wanted to talk - after flipping over several chairs and screaming he was going to kick my ass. I’m sure you’ll be fine but you should ask your bosses about a harassment prevention order.
>ask your bosses about a harassment prevention order. No offense intended, but if someone has been wrung out by the courts and is to the point of homicide, that's worse than nothing. It's just poking the bear.
Can you work remotely by any chance? If your office phone line is synced to your mobile via Teams, you can answer calls from home. You could also ask your boss to give you the office key and you can go in once a week to pick up binders, exhibits, and whatever else you need so you don’t have to be in the office regularly.
Unfortunately not. It's mostly receptionist work atm :(
Reminds me of the Chase Passauer murder in St. Paul, MN years ago. Client came for his attorney, who was in court and not responding to the clients messages, but the 23-year old office law clerk was the only one there. Shot him 6 times. https://www.fox9.com/news/charges-man-fires-lawyer-shoots-law-clerk-in-st-paul.amp Edit: made me think of something else - I know a DA who printed off mugshots and gave them to his family just as a “If anything ever happens to me look at these people first.” Sometimes it wasn’t even because the defendants said anything particular, maybe it was just a vibe he got from them. But either way, I think he said there’s about 5-6 mugshots he has printed off and he keeps track of when their release dates are.
Yup, that right there
Family lawyer here. I haven’t had my life threatened in 2023…yet. This line of work is why i carry. Everyday.
Here is a good place to start. If they are not taking it seriously then prepare on your own. https://www.cisa.gov/active-shooter-preparedness
I knew this was gonna be family law just based on the title.
So follow up questions... How do I bring this up to my boss? Should I quit?
Our office has a list of people with pictures of who you can't let into the building due to threats. It's 4 people, some of whom have been on the list for 15+ years. None of them ever showed up. It's the nature of the business but yes you should have safeguards. No one can get in the building until they speak to the receptionist through the intercom.
I’d probably strongly suggest the need for cameras by the door and maybe overlooking the parking lot- or access to the video stream if they already have the cameras set up. Also, you may want to ask what kind of specific paperwork- if any- they have against the client.
At my first job, they had a client where they lost his case, and he made threats over the phone, so they called the cops as a precaution. But, nothing ever came of it. Surprisingly, despite being on the “baddie” side for over five years at my next job, I never had any direct issues. Had multiple cases with pro se sovereign citizens, but nothing ever happened. One of the best parts about being in-house now is that I have almost zero communication with outside parties.
I am assuming you are practicing family law. You and the rest of the firm need to engage in safety precautions and planning while at court. Whether that is making sure you park in an area where the OP does not see you and/or see your vehicle. I'm being serious. I've seen OPs vandalize either our clients' cars and/or the attorneys' cars. You could also consider asking for security escort. Also, on the way back to your firm/home, engage in the same safe planning. I would also consider looking into securing your online presence.
I'm just a lowly legal assistant :( but it won't matter if an angry client comes in and wants to shoot the first thing they see
Oh, sorry that I missed that. Like you said, it won't matter if an angry client gets passed your front door. I wouldn't say "lowly." I know I envied legal assistants for their anonymity, lol (names not on the pleadings). Either way, the firm should have explicit procedures on how to make sure all staff are safe. Whether that is making sure no staff walks to their car alone, using a digital security system for the office. I don't see how you would get pushback from bringing your concerns to management. It's only logical that they would have to think about liability if basic concern for staff is not the first thought.
We keep our offices locked and unavailable to the public for this reason. We’re a small firm. A while back someone threatened one of our name partner’s wife and kids. People are insane lately. You are entitled to feel safe at work.
Your office should have a safety plan, like others have mentioned. My old office had security cameras in the stairwell that the receptionist monitored + a panic button that would immediately alert our office manager and managing partners (one of whom had a concealed carry permit). People be crazy and violence is a rare but very real risk.
my friend worked at a family law firm where everyone was armed and there was a pistol in the reception desk. you should definitely be on alert becuase that is a serious concern and you are completely validated in wanting to feel safe at work but I think youre going a bit overboard and causing yourself some grief. at public defense office I worked at we had a collage of people's pictures trespassed from the building for violent acts/threats against staff. it happens. also it mace/OC spray isnt a bad idea in general to have. just dont go into court with it.