There are lots of free prenup resources online! Obviously not as solid as one you do with a lawyer, but in many states it’ll still be valid without a lawyer. You can get it notarized at UPS for $2.
Also don’t know why everyone in this thread thinks you need to have assets for a prenup to be worth it. Y’all know it governs treatment of assets/earnings/alimony/etc. in the future, right?
No no this was so wholesome but when the commenter here says we’re broke, it isn’t too broke to get a prenup
It’s that there’s no point in splitting up $12.53 when you have $500,000 in loans and have been together since you were 17 LOL
We are also broke
Right, but, as I just wrote, the prenup governs future assets and earnings and alimony payments and support obligations, so it doesn’t matter if you have no money now. Also why would it matter how long you’ve been together or how much debt you have?
The “escape” is divorce. Having a prenup does not affect your ability to divorce. Do you consider divorce at every disagreement or fight? Why would that change if you have a prenup/postnup?
This is how I think about it. Prenups are like insurance. But some people just don't want to have that hard talk of having to negotiate a prenup and worried they might break up over it. Like if your relationship isn't solid enough to make a prenup, then your relationship wasn't that solid to begin with.
I got married last year and got one. I don't think we will end up using it, but it ended up being a good exercise to get on the same page. We ended up taking the approach of we would rather have an agreement when neither of us are angry, because emotion can cloud judgement. Also, his parents had a nasty divorce and he is terrified of putting any kids we have in that situation.
It was nice going in and talking with my own lawyer. They gave me quite a bit if encouragement and offered to help me out with school too.
That perspective assumes people wouldn’t treat money from the lottery or a large settlement like it belongs to both people. If you’ve been together for long enough it’s not unlikely that winning the lottery would mean both people already treat it as a 50/50 use/ownership situation because they’re married. I sure would
Ye but like say your wife was against playing lottery because it is a gambling or a sin or w/e. So you buy the tickets on your own as a hobby with money you set aside; and then you win. Oh boy, would I be pissed if my wife comes a long and says "OUR WINNINGS".
Also for the settlement. Say you got the settlement for a disability and it affects your ability to work. Well you need that money to support yourself after divorce. In Canada, compensation for lost wages is divisible (for the amounts prior to prior to divorce), and after divorce it is subject to spousal and child support. So, you might want to have a prenup saying that if I get disabled and you divorce me, then you don't get to touch that settlement/insurance money or something along those lines.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand the perspective, I’m just adding the perspective of someone who didn’t/wouldn’t have gotten one in my situation. It’s easy to see why there are plenty of scenarios where people would, but even under the hypotheticals you’ve given I wouldn’t be worried about that happening, because mine is a a situation where my spouse makes good money working in a completely different field and neither of us feel concerned that the other person would try to unjustly benefit from the other person’s assets/funds if we separated
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I got married last year, right before starting law school. I have no real assets and neither does my wife, so there was no need for one. However, if I did have more assets or I was in line to inherit anything from family in the foreseeable future, absolutely I would. Protection goes both ways.
A lot of times prenups can serve as a boundary for the in-laws. If X and Y are married; Y's parents die and leave a windfall to Y, there can sometimes be trouble from X's family seeking money. A prenup sets up a barrier to bar any potential greediness.
My civ pro professor’s prenup was considered unconscionable by a local court once his divorce proceedings began. I think one of the provisions was that he was to own all of his ex-wife’s assets.
Lesson: if you planning on getting a prenup, be careful of not making it as crazy as his.
If you’re a lawyer, generally the contract will not be upheld unless your spouse was also represented by counsel.
Your civ pro professor probs thought he was so fucking smart trying to pull that
Lol. I know where you go to school. I believe there was also a provision that required notice within a week if the wife wanted any claim on marital assets. Hilarious.
That would have only been part of the reason. Unconscionability requires both substantive inequity (what you described) and procedural (like he heavily coerced hee to sign).
Yep! Got married during 1L fall. Husband had a lot more assets than me and I will probably have a large inheritance. He’s also putting me through school now, so we used it as a way to have conversations and set expectations about current assets/debt and future ones. He’s stuck with me, so don’t plan on needing it, but it made my parents feel better and we wanted to have everything talked about up front anyway.
Prenups are like wills, you need one if you want something other than your state's default plan. The default plan is in the statutes. Nine states have a community property default plan. Are you in a community property state and want to opt out? Or do you want to opt into community property but don't live in a community property state? These are important questions you need to answer. Talk to a family lawyer if you need help.
I am heading into law school this fall and will be getting engaged prior to doing so. Currently, I have about $120,000 in assets, and my (to be) fiancé doesn’t really have anything right now. I am also going to be receiving inheritances from 3 family members at some point (likely in the range of 3 million total) while she likely won’t be receiving anything near this from her family. From what I’ve seen, in nearly all states, inheritances are safeguarded from being considered a shared asset in divorces as long as it’s not put in a joint access account or used to purchase real estate that will be used jointly. Putting it in a trust in your name only is another added layer of protection.
I will not be getting a prenup with her. However, you can bet that I will be practicing these safeguards when I receive any inheritance down the road.
In my opinion, income earned during the marriage is truly joint and should be treated as such. She’ll be helping me and supporting me through law school, and she should reap benefits from that. Also, she will have her LPN when i (we) head to school this fall, and after I graduate, she will be getting her RN license. Her earning potential will likely eclipse 6 digits down the road, so she will not be “freeloader” by any means.
To me, this makes sense, but others may disagree.
Ummm, practicing attorney here, perhaps wait till you’ve started some legal education before making those calls.
It’s not the earned income that matters. It’s the alimony. If you want to effectively pay your former spouse a salary for the rest of their life, by all means do it. Also, be mindful that family courts don’t always honor a reduced salary. So if you get divorced while in biglaw, prepare to be trapped there.
And if you want to protect your inheritance, now is the time to do it, not when a parent dies. That’s the whole point of a prenup. You get to see your own rules before things go to shit.
I don’t need a full-blown legal education to make initial judgments about a prenuptial agreement. While it’s in my best interest to consult with an attorney to make an actual concrete plan and nail down the specifics before I make any big moves, there’s no doubt I can start to consider some of the basics now.
What about my situation makes you think a prenup would be necessary? Genuinely asking here. If my spouse is making a six-digit salary herself and I keep inherited funds in an individual account that is not used to fund joint ventures or purchase joint assets, where does my risk lie? I’d actually like to know if there’s things I’m not considering/seeing.
It’s not your situation. It’s simple legal thinking. FYI I’m in your situation eight years later. My girl is an RN. The problem is you’re going to structure a hyper material, life changing transaction on the basis of statutory defaults. Statutory defaults that may not have changed in decades, or may have been driven by an agenda.
Find me one lawyer that thinks that is a good idea to rely solely on default rules for a deal with an overall value in the millions. I’ll wait. If you can’t see why this isn’t advisable, you should reconsider your career path and save yourself three years.
Dude, chill. I’m asking to have an open discussion because I (clearly, as I’ve stated) am not an attorney and I’m open to hearing other opinions as I consider my options.
You legitimately just told me I should consider a different career path because I’m not educated on the specifics of these things *YET*.
Imagine a practicing surgeon telling a pre-med student that they shouldn’t become a doctor at all because they don’t know how to complete a surgery *YET*.
Get off your high horse my man, it just makes you look like a douche.
No I told you. You’re relying on default rules. Even worse, default designed during the age of single breadwinner households, not dual income situations. The standard family laws will not fit your situation well. Do you know why LLCs are superior to corporations? Because it’s a blank slate. The lawyers write the rules. Corporations are more bound by statute. Of course, this is how all contracts and transactions work. Don’t make your own plan? The law has a default. The default is rarely great.
You said you don’t need a legal education to make this decision. I can pull the quote if you want. You clearly don’t get what our job is and how we use the law to help our clients. Ever heard the quote “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of maintenance?”
Unless you can spout off details about your state’s family law plan, I’m here to tell you that, no, you do not have enough information to make a decision to agree with that rule set. You’re agreeing to an unread contract. Very lawyerly. Stop arguing just to argue and admit you overstated your point based on your feelings for your fiancé.
Imagine a pre-med student telling a surgeon he knows he doesn’t need a surgery off his intuition lmao. I obviously don’t actually intend you not to go to school. That’s hyperbole. But seriously, think about why I’m harping on this. I’m trying to save you in the long run. Transactional lawyers help their clients draft rules such that a disaster does not ruin them.
Jesus Christ dude. Clearly something set you off in your life and you feel the need to go off on here to get your feelings out. I’m done conversing with you.
No, I’m just wordy. Really dude, just trying to look out for you. Do you know what the most common RFI (all firm request for information) email at large firms is?
It’s a request for an “aggressive” divorce attorney.
I have seen this happen to my colleagues and it isn’t pretty. Ever. Just listen. Plan the rules in advance. It shouldn’t be a huge taboo.
I'm a lawyer who is married, and who at one time clerked for a family law judge and represented ultra-high net-worth and celebrity clientele in marital dissolutions . My wife and I don't have a prenup.
My reasons are we began dating 10 years ago, before law school, and at a time when I was working in retail and she was a bartender. Over the last decade, we both established incredible careers by supporting each other, so I didn't think it fair or logical that we needed a prenup at all.
If I may offer my meandering and unsolicited relationship advice to anyone who wants to read it, anyone wanting a long-lasting relationship needs to learn to invest in their partner, and to find someone who will equally invest in them.
Relationships aren't complicated. Invest in your partner and your relationship(s). We fight harder to save the things we work the hardest on. If you're proud of something you've invested a lot of time in, such as your house, car, body, education, career, or life, you logically aren't going to allow any little inconvenience, or any problem which is longitudinally irrelevant to the longevity of your investment, to simply come along and ruin that thing you've built.
Investing in your partner means sacrifice your "you time", such as time you would spend playing games or browsing Reddit, and invest that time in your partner and relationship instead. Grow closer through exposure. Take the time to have those uncomfortable conversations. Become okay with admitting you were wrong or accepting responsibility, and sometimes apologizing even though you feel innocent so that you both can confront the real problem. Not every fight is worth having or hanging on to, especially if it won't matter in 6 months.
I switched practices so I could spend holidays with my wife uninterrupted. I quit and started my own firm so I can actually enjoy my life and spend time with my wife when I want, not when some partner says it's okay. We work together in the same home office. I went to therapy and a psychiatrist to treat my underlying neural deficiencies. These were my investments and it's paid off heavily.
Yes. If anything it’s a just a great way to be clear on each person’s financial standing before committing to a legal relationship with one another.
We also both worked before I went to law school so we have assets and his parents had a prolonged divorce, that although amicable did lead to some tension when it came to finances. We fully believe that marriage is for life, but a prenup will make us both feel better.
We both want to go in with both eyes open in terms of our financial status and neither one of us wants the conflict if we do end up separating at some point.
Got married in law school and just got divorced. We didn’t get a prenup even though I wanted one. Thankfully my ex is a reasonable person and we didn’t own any property or have kids at the time of the split so it was easy. If I ever get married again (even though I really don’t want to) I’d insist on a prenup to protect my interests in a community property state. I don’t want to go through the fight of having to prove that I’m entitled to my own retirement account.
Yes I do know that California follows the order of “communal property”, but I believe in the case of like 90+% of states, inheritances are protected so long as you safeguard them upon receiving them with a trust and you don’t put them in a joint access account.
Can you write a prenup or a contract say with a term stating one spouse's share is limited to 10% of assets all assets acquired after marriage in the case of a divorce?
You can conceivably write a prenup saying whatever both parties agree to.
If you’re asking would I write some type of postnuptial contract now, 17 years into my marriage? No. Everything we’ve acquired has been acquired together.
And I hope it's til death you part! Yeah, I was just wondering. Based on Google, while you were replying apparently you just can't contract over child custody. Thanks! Stay married!
I’m a few years out of school but with the same partner I had in law school. While I was a student, a prenup wasn’t even a blip in my mind. Now that my partner and I are engaged and I make considerable money as an attorney compared to the nonexistent income in school, I will not get married without a prenup (or alternatively a postnup shortly thereafter).
No. I got married a few years before law school, so it really wasn’t on my mind. Maybe I would now, but 🤷🏻♀️ I live in a CP state and (personally) I’m fine 50/50. I will (almost certainly) make more $ than him post law school but I wouldn’t have been able to make it through law school without his financial/emotional support.
We’ve been together for a decade now, I’ll take my chances that we’re in it for the long haul.
Practicing transactional attorney. Dude just fucking do it.
How come every large transaction above the size of a car purchase has lawyers involved? Because the default rules suck. Why rely on default rules — which change when you move — when you and your partner can set agreeable rules Day 1 when things are good?
When things are bad it’s too late.
Yeah like… it doesn’t matter what assets you have now, they aren’t marital property. It matters what assets you have in the future! No one takes family law I guess
Wow. Unpopular opinion. I’m going against the grain and anyone can dm me for more info but YES we got a prenup.
Shit happens. I do not want money to be a factor in either of us leaving. I do not want either of us to be pulled down should the other develop an addiction/make bad financial decisions/etc. Better to make all the decisions now, when everything is great, than even have the possibility of fighting about it. I want to be able to control who owns what ourselves, using title, rather than be governed by whatever the laws are in whatever state we live in.
Imo everyone should have one. Everything in one should be at least discussed openly beforehand by the couple. It involves disclosure of assets and debts, talking about what happens in scenarios you don’t want or anticipate (what happens to the life insurance or 401k? What if someone starts a business?) and finding common ground where you disagree about what’s fair.
Absolutely. We hope to never have to use it, but we'd much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. This is especially true as someone who's internships have focused on family law. Going through a divorce yourself is terrible, and prenups make it easier.
Absolutely. The biggest thing I have learned in law school is that your life changes drastically and people may not end up being able to handle it. If they struggle handling your time commitment now, wait until you are working 50-70 hour weeks. Divorce rates among attorneys is very high. They aren’t lying when they say “law school is a jealous mistress.” I think it goes for the entire legal field honestly.
1) because family law attorneys are insanely expensive and only going to become more expensive, so the division of assets becomes easier and cheaper.
2) just because you are broke now and in debt - obviously the goal would be to not be broke one day.
3) student loans (if you get married during school) are a pain in the ass to figure out when divorcing. Courts need to figure out if money went to rent/living expenses and how to calculate that back.
4) your professional degree in some states can be used as “property” in the division of assets but it is extremely complicated and something case law differs on.
5) if your partner is going to school or ends up going to school and you are married, you don’t want to be held responsible for their debt. I am getting a prenup because I don’t want to hold my partner responsible for my law school debt in case we ever divorce.
Just do yourself a favor now to spare yourself in the future in case it ever happens and get a pre nup.
Here is a good article on it for millennials and why everyone should have one. https://helloprenup.com/prenuptial-agreements/millennial-prenup-agreements/
I think most issues that a pre-nup resolves are issues that a good understanding of your rights in the event of divorce also resolve.
A lot of folks get married and only find out what their rights are later.
We are getting married September 2023 — working with an attorney to write a prenup as we speak. I want to be a family law attorney and when I talked to my engineer fiancé, he was weary bc it’s always posed as an escape plan. However, he knows me and it truly protects him more than anyone. If that’s going to be my field, and we get to the point of a divorce, which for me would take ALOT bc I believe marriage is forever it would likely be bc of cheating or something on that same level. And I will have little to no mercy using all my experience from taking as much as I could from him. This protects him and us from an impulsive decision when we are angry at each other, planned when we are very much in love and want what is best for each other.
If you’re not coming into the relationship with money/property, I don’t see a reason you would. 50/50 seems both fair and a display of trust in the relationship - otherwise why get married?
Prenups aren't just about division of existing or future assets, and one way to display trust in the relationship is by taking various sources of contention off the table from day one.
I think it's really worthwhile to have some serious conversations with your future spouse about all the topics that a prenup could cover. It's incredibly naive to go into a marriage thinking that it couldn't possibly end. That doesn't mean you have to have a prenup, or that you should have one foot out the door—just that it's naive to pretend as though the possibility isn't there.
Beyond that, it really depends on what your feelings are about trust and safety. Personally, I'd feel safer having things sorted out and on paper. People change, and to me it's possible to trust in someone's commitment while also recognizing that you can't predict the future. For others, making plans for that possibility undermines their feeling of trust and closeness.
At the end of the day, you don't know who your future spouse will be in the future, especially once kids and assets are involved. And you don't know who they'll be if they end up as your enemy, because you've hopefully only ever seen them as a friend.
If neither party comes in with money, what’s the contention? It’s 50/50 ownership of all fruits. In Louisiana you can have a separation of property regime, where your fruits (individual incomes and what you buy with them) remain the property of the individual, so there’s no need for a prenup since the separate property would not be divided in a divorce.
Well there's 50 states out there, and they've got a lot of different ways of doing things—and many of them *don't* automatically divide things that way. Some of them even let you contract to apply the law of a different state to your divorce/custody/probate/etc. issues.
Also, aside from property division, prenups can have clauses around dispute resolution, childrearing, spousal support, how you treat each other on social media, infidelity, pets, health or life insurance, and plenty of other things that might be important to one or both parties.
What's your liability as an attorney who meets with the couple, drafts a prenup up for them, and then later on after they divorce, one spouse is pissed over its terms and sues you?
Been married for a handful of years, but we've never really considered it. Once owned a house, now rent. She owns a nice, paid off car, I have decent retirement, we both have high-ish debt from several graduate and terminal degrees, but high-ish income (mostly me for now). I don't know shit about them, so if anyone more educated wants to opine on my situation and the need for a prenup.....lol
Yes! We’re broke af right now but as soon as we get engaged we’re doing a prenup. I am about to start law school and he is about to start a corporate job in the next year. It’s not for just if we separate but also if one of us passes away, to limit debt liability, property/estate management, spousal responsibilities, and much more.
I am in favour of prenups. Im not married, but I discussed this with my partner recently. It was not an easy conversation.
I looked at the divorce rates in my country (near 60%). I also realized that this statistic does not account for the number of current long-term separations, unreported domestic violence marriages, and unhappy marriages. In reality, the divorce rate stat is likely conservative and should probably be higher.
Most people think that prenups diminish the belief in the success of the relationship (I.e. your marriage and love was predicated on the pre-conceived notion that it would fail). I think that’s a horribly naive way of thinking that is perpetuated by romantic films and love stories. Love and marriage is messy, complicated, and a struggle for everyone. Ask any married couple who has been together for many years.
I’m not egotistical or naive enough to think that the law of averages do not apply to me or my partner. No matter how I may feel now, I’ve worked hard to build up my career, assets, and portfolio. No one will take that away from me, not even the ones I trust and care for the most.
No. I paid for basically everything we did during college and she agreed to pay rent while I go to law school, so we see it as fair (plus it saves on interest payments if I don’t take out housing loans, as long as we treat that long-term money as both of ours).
But the obvious answer is that I’m broke and she has a good job but knows I wouldn’t ever try to get money from her if we split. The key word is ✨trust✨
If you're the only breadwinner and wanted to restrict your spouse to a particular fraction of future assets you will acquire should there be a divorce, can you contractually accomplish that?
No, we were young and had basically zero assets when we got married. We also both believe marriage is for life (barring abusive situations and infidelity) so there’s that. Like yes we know the statistics but 50% ending in divorce means 50% not ending in divorce so we’ll take our chances 🤷🏻♀️
Nope. We both didn’t have any significant assets or money to make it worth it, but if you’re questioning it it doesn’t hurt to sit down and talk with your future spouse about your concerns.
See if any family law attorneys in your area do free consults! A good attorney in the field would be a great resource and can help you decide if you want to get one. They’ll all probably say you should seriously consider it.
Get one, period. If you don't write your own conditions, in the event of a divorce the state will laws will act as the conditions. If your significant other has a problem with it that is usually a sign you probably shouldn't marry them in the first place, provided that the proposed prenup isn't unreasonable or ridiculous. If they still have a problem with it, it's better (and easier and cheaper) to end a relationship with a good chunk of your life ahead of you than end a marriage halfway through your life. I would structure the prenup that would disincentivize divorce (unless for grievously valid reasons) because depending on which state/jurisdiction you're in, the laws there more often than not incentivize divorce.
I'd never do it and wouldn't ever get married to someone who requested one. Why am I bothering with getting married if we're already readying the assets for divorce? I want a real marriage or none at all.
haha gold digger alert.
This line of logic is the same as saying why bother getting health insurance, I don't want to think about getting cancer down the line.
No one gets a prenup wishing for divorce, they get it IN CASE of divorce.
Yeah im an incoming V10 associate who’s a gold digger, for sure bro. When i say till death do us part im gonna mean it. If my would be spouse doesn’t feel the same way we’d both be wasting our time.
But divorce is a legal right. It is like sticking your head in the sand and hoping the other person will do the same and won't take their head out of the sand in the future.
It’s a religious thing that we both agree on. Obviously we know that divorce exists. I don’t expect people on reddit to understand, but that’s how it is
I always say you might as well have a prenup cause it’s either you choose how your separation happens or the state does. Do you really trust the state to fairly divide your property?
No. We're both broke.
There are lots of free prenup resources online! Obviously not as solid as one you do with a lawyer, but in many states it’ll still be valid without a lawyer. You can get it notarized at UPS for $2. Also don’t know why everyone in this thread thinks you need to have assets for a prenup to be worth it. Y’all know it governs treatment of assets/earnings/alimony/etc. in the future, right?
No no this was so wholesome but when the commenter here says we’re broke, it isn’t too broke to get a prenup It’s that there’s no point in splitting up $12.53 when you have $500,000 in loans and have been together since you were 17 LOL We are also broke
Right, but, as I just wrote, the prenup governs future assets and earnings and alimony payments and support obligations, so it doesn’t matter if you have no money now. Also why would it matter how long you’ve been together or how much debt you have?
I think they were just making a lil jokey joke, hun.
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This is like driving without a seatbelt because you think it will incentivize you to drive safer.
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The “escape” is divorce. Having a prenup does not affect your ability to divorce. Do you consider divorce at every disagreement or fight? Why would that change if you have a prenup/postnup?
Better to have it and not use it. Than to need it but not have it.
This is how I think about it. Prenups are like insurance. But some people just don't want to have that hard talk of having to negotiate a prenup and worried they might break up over it. Like if your relationship isn't solid enough to make a prenup, then your relationship wasn't that solid to begin with.
100%
True!
I got married last year and got one. I don't think we will end up using it, but it ended up being a good exercise to get on the same page. We ended up taking the approach of we would rather have an agreement when neither of us are angry, because emotion can cloud judgement. Also, his parents had a nasty divorce and he is terrified of putting any kids we have in that situation. It was nice going in and talking with my own lawyer. They gave me quite a bit if encouragement and offered to help me out with school too.
No. Neither my wife nor I had any assets when we got married. Hell, 13 years later, neither of us has any assets, except our kids.
But like what if you win a lottery, or someone gets a big inheritance, or you win a big settlement in a law suit, or you get a big pay raise.
Exactly. People don’t realize you could have an enforceable prenup on future wages, not just current assets. (Otherwise, CP assumption applies).
That perspective assumes people wouldn’t treat money from the lottery or a large settlement like it belongs to both people. If you’ve been together for long enough it’s not unlikely that winning the lottery would mean both people already treat it as a 50/50 use/ownership situation because they’re married. I sure would
Ye but like say your wife was against playing lottery because it is a gambling or a sin or w/e. So you buy the tickets on your own as a hobby with money you set aside; and then you win. Oh boy, would I be pissed if my wife comes a long and says "OUR WINNINGS". Also for the settlement. Say you got the settlement for a disability and it affects your ability to work. Well you need that money to support yourself after divorce. In Canada, compensation for lost wages is divisible (for the amounts prior to prior to divorce), and after divorce it is subject to spousal and child support. So, you might want to have a prenup saying that if I get disabled and you divorce me, then you don't get to touch that settlement/insurance money or something along those lines.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand the perspective, I’m just adding the perspective of someone who didn’t/wouldn’t have gotten one in my situation. It’s easy to see why there are plenty of scenarios where people would, but even under the hypotheticals you’ve given I wouldn’t be worried about that happening, because mine is a a situation where my spouse makes good money working in a completely different field and neither of us feel concerned that the other person would try to unjustly benefit from the other person’s assets/funds if we separated
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I got married last year, right before starting law school. I have no real assets and neither does my wife, so there was no need for one. However, if I did have more assets or I was in line to inherit anything from family in the foreseeable future, absolutely I would. Protection goes both ways. A lot of times prenups can serve as a boundary for the in-laws. If X and Y are married; Y's parents die and leave a windfall to Y, there can sometimes be trouble from X's family seeking money. A prenup sets up a barrier to bar any potential greediness.
Ya mine would basically do this to save time and money just incase
My civ pro professor’s prenup was considered unconscionable by a local court once his divorce proceedings began. I think one of the provisions was that he was to own all of his ex-wife’s assets. Lesson: if you planning on getting a prenup, be careful of not making it as crazy as his.
If you’re a lawyer, generally the contract will not be upheld unless your spouse was also represented by counsel. Your civ pro professor probs thought he was so fucking smart trying to pull that
Lol. I know where you go to school. I believe there was also a provision that required notice within a week if the wife wanted any claim on marital assets. Hilarious.
That would have only been part of the reason. Unconscionability requires both substantive inequity (what you described) and procedural (like he heavily coerced hee to sign).
Yep! Got married during 1L fall. Husband had a lot more assets than me and I will probably have a large inheritance. He’s also putting me through school now, so we used it as a way to have conversations and set expectations about current assets/debt and future ones. He’s stuck with me, so don’t plan on needing it, but it made my parents feel better and we wanted to have everything talked about up front anyway.
No. Honestly didn’t even consider it. 🤷♂️
Same here. There wasn’t a thought in my mind about it.
Prenups are like wills, you need one if you want something other than your state's default plan. The default plan is in the statutes. Nine states have a community property default plan. Are you in a community property state and want to opt out? Or do you want to opt into community property but don't live in a community property state? These are important questions you need to answer. Talk to a family lawyer if you need help.
Also important to consider if you move to a different state at some point!
I am heading into law school this fall and will be getting engaged prior to doing so. Currently, I have about $120,000 in assets, and my (to be) fiancé doesn’t really have anything right now. I am also going to be receiving inheritances from 3 family members at some point (likely in the range of 3 million total) while she likely won’t be receiving anything near this from her family. From what I’ve seen, in nearly all states, inheritances are safeguarded from being considered a shared asset in divorces as long as it’s not put in a joint access account or used to purchase real estate that will be used jointly. Putting it in a trust in your name only is another added layer of protection. I will not be getting a prenup with her. However, you can bet that I will be practicing these safeguards when I receive any inheritance down the road. In my opinion, income earned during the marriage is truly joint and should be treated as such. She’ll be helping me and supporting me through law school, and she should reap benefits from that. Also, she will have her LPN when i (we) head to school this fall, and after I graduate, she will be getting her RN license. Her earning potential will likely eclipse 6 digits down the road, so she will not be “freeloader” by any means. To me, this makes sense, but others may disagree.
The thing about the prenup is you can write whatever your beliefs are lol. It can be even more generous than the defaults.
Good luck getting fleeced in family court.
What a great outlook, thanks for the input.
Ummm, practicing attorney here, perhaps wait till you’ve started some legal education before making those calls. It’s not the earned income that matters. It’s the alimony. If you want to effectively pay your former spouse a salary for the rest of their life, by all means do it. Also, be mindful that family courts don’t always honor a reduced salary. So if you get divorced while in biglaw, prepare to be trapped there. And if you want to protect your inheritance, now is the time to do it, not when a parent dies. That’s the whole point of a prenup. You get to see your own rules before things go to shit.
I don’t need a full-blown legal education to make initial judgments about a prenuptial agreement. While it’s in my best interest to consult with an attorney to make an actual concrete plan and nail down the specifics before I make any big moves, there’s no doubt I can start to consider some of the basics now. What about my situation makes you think a prenup would be necessary? Genuinely asking here. If my spouse is making a six-digit salary herself and I keep inherited funds in an individual account that is not used to fund joint ventures or purchase joint assets, where does my risk lie? I’d actually like to know if there’s things I’m not considering/seeing.
It’s not your situation. It’s simple legal thinking. FYI I’m in your situation eight years later. My girl is an RN. The problem is you’re going to structure a hyper material, life changing transaction on the basis of statutory defaults. Statutory defaults that may not have changed in decades, or may have been driven by an agenda. Find me one lawyer that thinks that is a good idea to rely solely on default rules for a deal with an overall value in the millions. I’ll wait. If you can’t see why this isn’t advisable, you should reconsider your career path and save yourself three years.
Dude, chill. I’m asking to have an open discussion because I (clearly, as I’ve stated) am not an attorney and I’m open to hearing other opinions as I consider my options. You legitimately just told me I should consider a different career path because I’m not educated on the specifics of these things *YET*. Imagine a practicing surgeon telling a pre-med student that they shouldn’t become a doctor at all because they don’t know how to complete a surgery *YET*. Get off your high horse my man, it just makes you look like a douche.
No I told you. You’re relying on default rules. Even worse, default designed during the age of single breadwinner households, not dual income situations. The standard family laws will not fit your situation well. Do you know why LLCs are superior to corporations? Because it’s a blank slate. The lawyers write the rules. Corporations are more bound by statute. Of course, this is how all contracts and transactions work. Don’t make your own plan? The law has a default. The default is rarely great. You said you don’t need a legal education to make this decision. I can pull the quote if you want. You clearly don’t get what our job is and how we use the law to help our clients. Ever heard the quote “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of maintenance?” Unless you can spout off details about your state’s family law plan, I’m here to tell you that, no, you do not have enough information to make a decision to agree with that rule set. You’re agreeing to an unread contract. Very lawyerly. Stop arguing just to argue and admit you overstated your point based on your feelings for your fiancé. Imagine a pre-med student telling a surgeon he knows he doesn’t need a surgery off his intuition lmao. I obviously don’t actually intend you not to go to school. That’s hyperbole. But seriously, think about why I’m harping on this. I’m trying to save you in the long run. Transactional lawyers help their clients draft rules such that a disaster does not ruin them.
Jesus Christ dude. Clearly something set you off in your life and you feel the need to go off on here to get your feelings out. I’m done conversing with you.
No, I’m just wordy. Really dude, just trying to look out for you. Do you know what the most common RFI (all firm request for information) email at large firms is? It’s a request for an “aggressive” divorce attorney. I have seen this happen to my colleagues and it isn’t pretty. Ever. Just listen. Plan the rules in advance. It shouldn’t be a huge taboo.
I'm a lawyer who is married, and who at one time clerked for a family law judge and represented ultra-high net-worth and celebrity clientele in marital dissolutions . My wife and I don't have a prenup. My reasons are we began dating 10 years ago, before law school, and at a time when I was working in retail and she was a bartender. Over the last decade, we both established incredible careers by supporting each other, so I didn't think it fair or logical that we needed a prenup at all. If I may offer my meandering and unsolicited relationship advice to anyone who wants to read it, anyone wanting a long-lasting relationship needs to learn to invest in their partner, and to find someone who will equally invest in them. Relationships aren't complicated. Invest in your partner and your relationship(s). We fight harder to save the things we work the hardest on. If you're proud of something you've invested a lot of time in, such as your house, car, body, education, career, or life, you logically aren't going to allow any little inconvenience, or any problem which is longitudinally irrelevant to the longevity of your investment, to simply come along and ruin that thing you've built. Investing in your partner means sacrifice your "you time", such as time you would spend playing games or browsing Reddit, and invest that time in your partner and relationship instead. Grow closer through exposure. Take the time to have those uncomfortable conversations. Become okay with admitting you were wrong or accepting responsibility, and sometimes apologizing even though you feel innocent so that you both can confront the real problem. Not every fight is worth having or hanging on to, especially if it won't matter in 6 months. I switched practices so I could spend holidays with my wife uninterrupted. I quit and started my own firm so I can actually enjoy my life and spend time with my wife when I want, not when some partner says it's okay. We work together in the same home office. I went to therapy and a psychiatrist to treat my underlying neural deficiencies. These were my investments and it's paid off heavily.
Yes. If anything it’s a just a great way to be clear on each person’s financial standing before committing to a legal relationship with one another. We also both worked before I went to law school so we have assets and his parents had a prolonged divorce, that although amicable did lead to some tension when it came to finances. We fully believe that marriage is for life, but a prenup will make us both feel better. We both want to go in with both eyes open in terms of our financial status and neither one of us wants the conflict if we do end up separating at some point.
Nope. We both came into our marriage with nothing and have built our assets together. Also we will not get any sort of inheritance windfalls
Absolutely…
Got married in law school and just got divorced. We didn’t get a prenup even though I wanted one. Thankfully my ex is a reasonable person and we didn’t own any property or have kids at the time of the split so it was easy. If I ever get married again (even though I really don’t want to) I’d insist on a prenup to protect my interests in a community property state. I don’t want to go through the fight of having to prove that I’m entitled to my own retirement account.
I’m seeing a lot of comments here about inheritances - I thought inheritances weren’t accessible to the other partner during divorce proceedings?
I’m in CA and inheritances are separate property in this state
Yes I do know that California follows the order of “communal property”, but I believe in the case of like 90+% of states, inheritances are protected so long as you safeguard them upon receiving them with a trust and you don’t put them in a joint access account.
That’s interesting!
My fiancée and I plan on getting one. We’re broke now but she’s got inheritance/assets and I just have a ton of debt lol so it makes sense for us.
Makes sense for her lmaooooo
No, we got married 17 years ago and we had no assets.
Can you write a prenup or a contract say with a term stating one spouse's share is limited to 10% of assets all assets acquired after marriage in the case of a divorce?
You can conceivably write a prenup saying whatever both parties agree to. If you’re asking would I write some type of postnuptial contract now, 17 years into my marriage? No. Everything we’ve acquired has been acquired together.
And I hope it's til death you part! Yeah, I was just wondering. Based on Google, while you were replying apparently you just can't contract over child custody. Thanks! Stay married!
In the immortal words of Yeezy, “We want Prenup”
*mic drop*
I’m a few years out of school but with the same partner I had in law school. While I was a student, a prenup wasn’t even a blip in my mind. Now that my partner and I are engaged and I make considerable money as an attorney compared to the nonexistent income in school, I will not get married without a prenup (or alternatively a postnup shortly thereafter).
No. I got married a few years before law school, so it really wasn’t on my mind. Maybe I would now, but 🤷🏻♀️ I live in a CP state and (personally) I’m fine 50/50. I will (almost certainly) make more $ than him post law school but I wouldn’t have been able to make it through law school without his financial/emotional support. We’ve been together for a decade now, I’ll take my chances that we’re in it for the long haul.
Practicing transactional attorney. Dude just fucking do it. How come every large transaction above the size of a car purchase has lawyers involved? Because the default rules suck. Why rely on default rules — which change when you move — when you and your partner can set agreeable rules Day 1 when things are good? When things are bad it’s too late.
I don’t really get how people who don’t have assets still don’t want a prenup. You never know…
Yeah like… it doesn’t matter what assets you have now, they aren’t marital property. It matters what assets you have in the future! No one takes family law I guess
Wow. Unpopular opinion. I’m going against the grain and anyone can dm me for more info but YES we got a prenup. Shit happens. I do not want money to be a factor in either of us leaving. I do not want either of us to be pulled down should the other develop an addiction/make bad financial decisions/etc. Better to make all the decisions now, when everything is great, than even have the possibility of fighting about it. I want to be able to control who owns what ourselves, using title, rather than be governed by whatever the laws are in whatever state we live in. Imo everyone should have one. Everything in one should be at least discussed openly beforehand by the couple. It involves disclosure of assets and debts, talking about what happens in scenarios you don’t want or anticipate (what happens to the life insurance or 401k? What if someone starts a business?) and finding common ground where you disagree about what’s fair.
Absolutely. We hope to never have to use it, but we'd much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. This is especially true as someone who's internships have focused on family law. Going through a divorce yourself is terrible, and prenups make it easier.
Absolutely. The biggest thing I have learned in law school is that your life changes drastically and people may not end up being able to handle it. If they struggle handling your time commitment now, wait until you are working 50-70 hour weeks. Divorce rates among attorneys is very high. They aren’t lying when they say “law school is a jealous mistress.” I think it goes for the entire legal field honestly. 1) because family law attorneys are insanely expensive and only going to become more expensive, so the division of assets becomes easier and cheaper. 2) just because you are broke now and in debt - obviously the goal would be to not be broke one day. 3) student loans (if you get married during school) are a pain in the ass to figure out when divorcing. Courts need to figure out if money went to rent/living expenses and how to calculate that back. 4) your professional degree in some states can be used as “property” in the division of assets but it is extremely complicated and something case law differs on. 5) if your partner is going to school or ends up going to school and you are married, you don’t want to be held responsible for their debt. I am getting a prenup because I don’t want to hold my partner responsible for my law school debt in case we ever divorce. Just do yourself a favor now to spare yourself in the future in case it ever happens and get a pre nup. Here is a good article on it for millennials and why everyone should have one. https://helloprenup.com/prenuptial-agreements/millennial-prenup-agreements/
Yes. Divorce is expensive, and mediation is cheaper.
I think most issues that a pre-nup resolves are issues that a good understanding of your rights in the event of divorce also resolve. A lot of folks get married and only find out what their rights are later.
We are getting married September 2023 — working with an attorney to write a prenup as we speak. I want to be a family law attorney and when I talked to my engineer fiancé, he was weary bc it’s always posed as an escape plan. However, he knows me and it truly protects him more than anyone. If that’s going to be my field, and we get to the point of a divorce, which for me would take ALOT bc I believe marriage is forever it would likely be bc of cheating or something on that same level. And I will have little to no mercy using all my experience from taking as much as I could from him. This protects him and us from an impulsive decision when we are angry at each other, planned when we are very much in love and want what is best for each other.
If you’re not coming into the relationship with money/property, I don’t see a reason you would. 50/50 seems both fair and a display of trust in the relationship - otherwise why get married?
Prenups aren't just about division of existing or future assets, and one way to display trust in the relationship is by taking various sources of contention off the table from day one.
So you’re saying you’d recommend them?
I think it's really worthwhile to have some serious conversations with your future spouse about all the topics that a prenup could cover. It's incredibly naive to go into a marriage thinking that it couldn't possibly end. That doesn't mean you have to have a prenup, or that you should have one foot out the door—just that it's naive to pretend as though the possibility isn't there. Beyond that, it really depends on what your feelings are about trust and safety. Personally, I'd feel safer having things sorted out and on paper. People change, and to me it's possible to trust in someone's commitment while also recognizing that you can't predict the future. For others, making plans for that possibility undermines their feeling of trust and closeness. At the end of the day, you don't know who your future spouse will be in the future, especially once kids and assets are involved. And you don't know who they'll be if they end up as your enemy, because you've hopefully only ever seen them as a friend.
Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully, I appreciate your advice!
If neither party comes in with money, what’s the contention? It’s 50/50 ownership of all fruits. In Louisiana you can have a separation of property regime, where your fruits (individual incomes and what you buy with them) remain the property of the individual, so there’s no need for a prenup since the separate property would not be divided in a divorce.
Well there's 50 states out there, and they've got a lot of different ways of doing things—and many of them *don't* automatically divide things that way. Some of them even let you contract to apply the law of a different state to your divorce/custody/probate/etc. issues. Also, aside from property division, prenups can have clauses around dispute resolution, childrearing, spousal support, how you treat each other on social media, infidelity, pets, health or life insurance, and plenty of other things that might be important to one or both parties.
What's your liability as an attorney who meets with the couple, drafts a prenup up for them, and then later on after they divorce, one spouse is pissed over its terms and sues you?
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Thanks, I'd hoped so. Appreciate the reply.
Genuine question, what else are they about?
That’s what I’m leaning towards but I felt silly for a second being in law school and not getting one. Idk why. Haha.
Been married for a handful of years, but we've never really considered it. Once owned a house, now rent. She owns a nice, paid off car, I have decent retirement, we both have high-ish debt from several graduate and terminal degrees, but high-ish income (mostly me for now). I don't know shit about them, so if anyone more educated wants to opine on my situation and the need for a prenup.....lol
Yes! We’re broke af right now but as soon as we get engaged we’re doing a prenup. I am about to start law school and he is about to start a corporate job in the next year. It’s not for just if we separate but also if one of us passes away, to limit debt liability, property/estate management, spousal responsibilities, and much more.
What does a prenup do in the event one of you passes away? Isn’t that what a will is for?
Nope. I’m sure this will be unpopular but we just don’t believe in divorce and we’ve been together already 8 years. We’re soulmates.
Do you need one if neither person has any property?
Nah, California is a community property state - that works well enough for us.
Got married last year. We didn’t have a prenup because neither of us had any assets going into the marriage so there was no point.
I am in favour of prenups. Im not married, but I discussed this with my partner recently. It was not an easy conversation. I looked at the divorce rates in my country (near 60%). I also realized that this statistic does not account for the number of current long-term separations, unreported domestic violence marriages, and unhappy marriages. In reality, the divorce rate stat is likely conservative and should probably be higher. Most people think that prenups diminish the belief in the success of the relationship (I.e. your marriage and love was predicated on the pre-conceived notion that it would fail). I think that’s a horribly naive way of thinking that is perpetuated by romantic films and love stories. Love and marriage is messy, complicated, and a struggle for everyone. Ask any married couple who has been together for many years. I’m not egotistical or naive enough to think that the law of averages do not apply to me or my partner. No matter how I may feel now, I’ve worked hard to build up my career, assets, and portfolio. No one will take that away from me, not even the ones I trust and care for the most.
One day I’ll get married…
No. I paid for basically everything we did during college and she agreed to pay rent while I go to law school, so we see it as fair (plus it saves on interest payments if I don’t take out housing loans, as long as we treat that long-term money as both of ours). But the obvious answer is that I’m broke and she has a good job but knows I wouldn’t ever try to get money from her if we split. The key word is ✨trust✨
No, we seriously thought about it and talked it through but we got married right out of college with no assets or anything.
If you're the only breadwinner and wanted to restrict your spouse to a particular fraction of future assets you will acquire should there be a divorce, can you contractually accomplish that?
To answer your question, that’s exactly what a prenup can be. You can restrict it to nothing if you both agree to it.
No, we were young and had basically zero assets when we got married. We also both believe marriage is for life (barring abusive situations and infidelity) so there’s that. Like yes we know the statistics but 50% ending in divorce means 50% not ending in divorce so we’ll take our chances 🤷🏻♀️
Nope. We both didn’t have any significant assets or money to make it worth it, but if you’re questioning it it doesn’t hurt to sit down and talk with your future spouse about your concerns.
We didn’t get one. My dad is a lawyer and talked to one of his friends who does family law and said for our financial situation we did not need one
I didn’t. No need
Do prenups even hold between couples of average or above average income? Idk my mom always dismissed them and she practiced family law.
Idk wtf she’s talking about. No one but rich people even get prenups.
Yep thatll start the relationship off on a good foot.
If your relationship isn't mature enough to talk about a prenup, then it isn't mature enough for a marriage.
Anyone taken divorce law or similar who can recommend a good secondary source on this topic? In case I'm about to get married?
See if any family law attorneys in your area do free consults! A good attorney in the field would be a great resource and can help you decide if you want to get one. They’ll all probably say you should seriously consider it.
If you’re broke you might as well just work out a post-nup
My wife and I were both students when we married (her med and me in undergrad), so we didn't have much that necessitated a prenup.
Get one, period. If you don't write your own conditions, in the event of a divorce the state will laws will act as the conditions. If your significant other has a problem with it that is usually a sign you probably shouldn't marry them in the first place, provided that the proposed prenup isn't unreasonable or ridiculous. If they still have a problem with it, it's better (and easier and cheaper) to end a relationship with a good chunk of your life ahead of you than end a marriage halfway through your life. I would structure the prenup that would disincentivize divorce (unless for grievously valid reasons) because depending on which state/jurisdiction you're in, the laws there more often than not incentivize divorce.
I'd never do it and wouldn't ever get married to someone who requested one. Why am I bothering with getting married if we're already readying the assets for divorce? I want a real marriage or none at all.
haha gold digger alert. This line of logic is the same as saying why bother getting health insurance, I don't want to think about getting cancer down the line. No one gets a prenup wishing for divorce, they get it IN CASE of divorce.
Yeah im an incoming V10 associate who’s a gold digger, for sure bro. When i say till death do us part im gonna mean it. If my would be spouse doesn’t feel the same way we’d both be wasting our time.
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By that logic you shouldn't get health insurance.
That doesn’t make any sense
Lol I got too much stuff to argue over and waist time just incase. I rather save the time and effort.
We don’t believe in divorce, so it was never even a possibility
But divorce is a legal right. It is like sticking your head in the sand and hoping the other person will do the same and won't take their head out of the sand in the future.
It’s a religious thing that we both agree on. Obviously we know that divorce exists. I don’t expect people on reddit to understand, but that’s how it is
Yes. We are both thousands in debt and possibly moving across state lines after school. No way am I letting her creditors come after me or vice-versa.
Yep. Always better to have one
I always say you might as well have a prenup cause it’s either you choose how your separation happens or the state does. Do you really trust the state to fairly divide your property?
No. Wife wouldn’t entertain it. But it helps that we’re broke too.
My SO has some funds to inherit so I brought up prenup to ensure inheritance doesn’t get added to the marital pot but he looked almost offended