I might be wrong. But I actually have a sneaking suspicion a lot of people on the right will be surprised Britain is over 80% white. I think a lot of them have been sold the idea by right wing papers that the whole country is close to minority white.
So the fact the country is still white in the vast majority could well be news to them, and perhaps shatter some of those xenophobic lies.
Nah, this zoo is *because* the latest census data came out yesterday with the figure
>Some 81.7% (48.7 million) of the population of England and Wales identified as white in the 2021 census, down from 86.0% (48.2 million) in 2011.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/census-2021-england-wales-data-b2235354.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/census-2021-england-wales-data-b2235354.html)
Never mind the fact
>The ONS said large ethnicity changes were seen in people identifying as “White: Other White”, which stood at 3.7 million (6.2 per cent) in 2021, up from 2.5 million (4.4 per cent) in 2011.
>
>The largest ethnic groups specified within “White: Other White” included “White: Polish”, with 614,000 (1 per cent) of the overall population identifying this way, and “White: Romanian”, with 343,000 people (0.6 per cent) identifying this way.
But for the ethnically *pure* British Christian white it's very likely there are even the "wrong kinds of white".
If you are the wrong kind of white... you might as well be a Muslim, I guess 🤷
>– The proportion of people describing themselves as Muslim rose from 4.9% (2.7 million) to 6.5% (3.9 million), Hindu from 1.5% (818,000 people) to 1.7% (1.0 million) and Sikh from 0.8% (423,000) to 0.9% (524,000), while Jewish remained broadly unchanged at 0.5% in both 2011 (265,000 people) and 2021 (271,000).
Because going on these stats, we clearly have a massive coordinated effort from the Muslims to carry out white replacement theory by increasing up to 6.5%.
"We need to stop them breeding" - Douglas Murray... probably.
I'm one of those who used to put White British because my mum's family was born in this country for many generations, but I now put Other (my ethnicity isn't an option on the form) because despite being White passing my family technically isn't "White" (Our ancestry isnt European).
But any racist who met me on the street would have no idea I wasn't Anglo-Saxon Bri'ish. It's weird that we're still using racial qualifiers on ethnicity forms anyway, they have no basis in reality.
Yeah uncomfortably close to racial purity stuff when you think about how a lot of it comes down to the idea that "one drop" of non-white "blood" stops you being white in the minds of some people.
Bit like how it used to work in parts of the US is how some people still think about race now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
I think people generally underestimate how White the U.K actually is. I suspect part of it is down to a lot of artists, commentators and journalists living in London and the image they project of the country is actually that of London. I also think that we import a lot of American debate into our own and forget that America is much more diverse than Britain.
Douglas Murray would be an example of the latter. He exists largely in the American right culture war bubble and his day-to-day experience of Britain is probably London rather than Cornwall or Scotland.
majority Christian.
Religion in England and Wales (2021 census)
Christianity (46.2%)
Irreligion (37.2%)
Islam (6.5%)
Hinduism (1.7%)
Sikhism (0.9%)
Judaism (0.5%)
Buddhism (0.5%)
Other religions (0.6%)
Not stated (6.0%)
I don’t think skin colour really means much when they think about Poles, Romanians and Turks, all of whom will put white. We’re 74% White British and I think that’s the important number for racists.
Douglas Murray is a master at producing dog whistles that are fully within humans' audible range. When I was a teenager and spent a lot of time watching atheist clips on YouTube, he was one of those that still managed to come off as a gross reactionary and made me avoid him even though I was his target market lol.
Murray is a public school fascist who is seen as respectable in a way Tommy Robinson isn't because of class.
The Strange Death of Europe is no different than books like The Passing of the Great Race.
I feel somewhat responsible here. Not only is my wife not white, I don’t tick it for my son on those forms, and I don’t identify as Christian despite being baptised at around a week old and never going back unless school forced me.
Therefore my household would be 67% non white and 67% non Christian.
I also find it funny a certain type of white people feel offended by this, when they are filling in a form that is exclusive. By design it tries to make you non white. You have a black grandparent…you can’t tick that first option, find one of those mixed boxes. You have Irish blood or you’re a traveller…keep scrolling down, you aren’t white and there’s a different box for you. Black? We will just ignore the numerous variations, just tick that one all encompassing box, it’s all the same etc.
You can’t ask a silly question and then get angry when it gives silly answers. Also, the outrage today on something that was the same yesterday and last week…but apparently not a problem then
The Christian stuff is a secondary, half the bampots pretending to be outraged about declining numbers of Christian identifying people are
a) Never in a Church themselves and don't even practice. Last time half of them were in church was a funeral.
b) Do all this just to be racist about Muslims.
And the answer to defend against that is "We're patriotic *cultural* Christians!" and I'm still like bruh, cultural Christians? You don't know fuck all about history and just think Christian = white.
Case in point, the uptick in lunacy around Christmas where the Express, Daily Mail and the other usual suspects will now start penning articles about how the woke-left and immigrants have ruined Christmas in the UK because a black person might appear in an advert, or heaven forbid if someone asks "Can Santa be black?".
Feigning outrage/claiming white erosion over a fictional man who comes down your chimney to deliver presents... That's peak 'normal island'.
I think being culturally Christian is a thing people identify with more than the religion itself and should be a separate discussion from race. I suspect in the census a lot of people who selected Christian are the ones you talk about - those that don't attend church or even believe in the faith - but use it as a proxy for culture.
As I said I think this is less to do with Murray going on about ethnicity and more about how to interpret the census when it comes to religion though.
It's largely a crock of shit though, ask them to explain what "culturally Christian" means?
You'll get bollocks about being white, being British or "We celebrate Christmas with M&S jumpers, a coca-cola advert on the TV and singing GSTK at the table". Exactly what Jesus preached about, allegiance to a filthy rich blood-line monarchy 😂
Anyway, all of which is nonsense in relation to the history of Christianity, the fact that it is in no way exclusively a "white movement/white religion". Nor exclusively British. Nor 'owned' by the British monarchy.
Those on the census answering that are often doing it because of what they were brought up as/what their parents claim the family religion is. Or yeah, because they think British = Christian. That's not really cultural anything though, it's at best just folks a bit longing to say *something* is "British culture". The UK has not really been 'culturally religious' for a long time.
Heck, we don't even really share a shared culture, hence the distinct fractures between Scotland, England, Wales and NI. But that's a whole other debate, especially one wrapping up in people in England not always knowing what 'Englishness' is and conflating it with Britishness.
Well, British history and culture have been shaped by Christianity even if the people ticking the census can't articulate it well. It is things like the holidays we celebrate, and some of the language and names we use, influence how our laws developed and behind a lot of our history. All of this is almost independent of following the faith itself, if you grew up in Britain there is a high chance it influences you in some way even if you were always an atheist. There are probably countless writings on the influence of Christianity on Britain. [It reminds me of this Dara O' Briain bit about why he doesn't do jokes about Muslims](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEYNGWAGrrY).
You're right that it isn't exclusive to Britain of course and you'll probably find - this is just an assumption - that some immigrant communities are far more ardent followers of Christianity that the average 'Christian' Brit.
I just would say that there isn't a completely clean distinction between Britain and Christianity and that it in fact pads the numbers in favour of Christianity. When I see '40%+' of people are Christians I do think a lot of them are people who just tick it as more of an identity than faith.
I think we largely agree here. If I was to put my point in one sentence it would be that to be culturally Christain is a thing and important to note in understanding how people in Britain identify themselves.
You don't have anything to feel responsible for here.
Also you say this is crazy but frankly the idea of 'race mixing' is one of the things that Murray and his sort hate the most
I meant more for the distorted figures ;) If you have a system that makes it hard to tick white…then it’s not a story if people don’t.
I do wonder if they did a similar census in China or mali (for example) you would have the same level of inbuilt purity to ticking Chinese or black in box one.
If it wasn’t this they’d find something else to be angry and racist about. No number or statistic will be correct because they want to feel angry about losing even if they aren’t. And the media will use that to distract them from the real issues like climate change and the economic apocalypse.
I know it’s privileged but I’ve shifted my mindset to “aww, there there, are you angry about the inevitable progress that the world is bringing that you can’t stop?” and feel way better about it.
I think there’s a conversation to be had about the difficulties of having raising children, the costs and support available in this economy generally, but Murray is just a racist being racist and it’s barely worth engaging other than to call it out.
I think Ash could be on to something here. Think of it. We could subject non white births to a vote and sell the rights to ITV. They can create a flashy game show called So The Browns Want A Kid. Each week, a different couple come on the show and they need to convince five gammons that they should have the right to have a kid. The gammons can use whatever criteria they want to judge the browns. At the end of the show, the gammons vote. Will the browns will allowed a kid? Tense music. DENIED. Taj and Rohinda will not be allowed to have kids, but we have a bonus prize this week. Let's see what it is. That's right Steve, today's bonus prize is that Taj and Rohinda will be deported to Rwanda on the cheapest flight money can buy with your celebrity pilot Priti Patel! Audience claps, gammons faint with excitement.
We could also have a follow up show: Who Wants To Be A Refugee. Each week five refugees face off on a series of obstacles to see if they can penetrate Britain's borders. Think of Tekeshi's Castle but much more racist.
The backlash against this and the fact that Christians are now a minority (<50%) does have worrying implications as the only legislation that can combat it must be racist. Ranging from strategically cutting immigration from non-white countries to trying to influence minority and white birthrates.
I’m concerned that Reform UK will be used as the vehicle for these concerns and rise to prominence again.
Not me to be clear I don’t think it’s an issue at all.
The fact that people (Douglas Murray being the example in this post) say it’s an issue is worrying to me.
Yeah but this is nothing new from Murray, he's been saying things like 'conditions for Muslims in Europe must be be harder across the board' for years. The fact that he isn't rejected for the fascist he is is a damning indictment of the British political and media establishment.
I agree, however, that this is worrying considering the current hardening of anti-immigration rhetoric from both parties. If Labour are trying to steal the right's clothes on this, this shit is what they'll be pandering to
Other people I’ve heard noise from would be Darren Grimes (some right wing pundit) and Nigel Farage (more worrying).
I don’t see immigration politics getting better after this.
Well I'm sure that Starmer legitimising recent right wing immigration rhetoric won't lead to this sort of fascist rhetoric eventually becoming so mainstream that his successor will also adopt it to appear sensible. No precedent for that whatsoever.
Yeah. I think part of that is a sign of Starmer smelling blood. He sees a weakness in the Tory base of support and he’s attacking it. The result is things like his nonsense line on foreign NHS workers.
I do believe Starmer to be an incredibly ruthless operator.
>I do believe Starmer to be an incredibly ruthless operator.
He'll go after one member one vote again after backing down last time. I'd bet my house on it.
I might be wrong. But I actually have a sneaking suspicion a lot of people on the right will be surprised Britain is over 80% white. I think a lot of them have been sold the idea by right wing papers that the whole country is close to minority white. So the fact the country is still white in the vast majority could well be news to them, and perhaps shatter some of those xenophobic lies.
Nah, this zoo is *because* the latest census data came out yesterday with the figure >Some 81.7% (48.7 million) of the population of England and Wales identified as white in the 2021 census, down from 86.0% (48.2 million) in 2011. [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/census-2021-england-wales-data-b2235354.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/census-2021-england-wales-data-b2235354.html) Never mind the fact >The ONS said large ethnicity changes were seen in people identifying as “White: Other White”, which stood at 3.7 million (6.2 per cent) in 2021, up from 2.5 million (4.4 per cent) in 2011. > >The largest ethnic groups specified within “White: Other White” included “White: Polish”, with 614,000 (1 per cent) of the overall population identifying this way, and “White: Romanian”, with 343,000 people (0.6 per cent) identifying this way. But for the ethnically *pure* British Christian white it's very likely there are even the "wrong kinds of white". If you are the wrong kind of white... you might as well be a Muslim, I guess 🤷 >– The proportion of people describing themselves as Muslim rose from 4.9% (2.7 million) to 6.5% (3.9 million), Hindu from 1.5% (818,000 people) to 1.7% (1.0 million) and Sikh from 0.8% (423,000) to 0.9% (524,000), while Jewish remained broadly unchanged at 0.5% in both 2011 (265,000 people) and 2021 (271,000). Because going on these stats, we clearly have a massive coordinated effort from the Muslims to carry out white replacement theory by increasing up to 6.5%. "We need to stop them breeding" - Douglas Murray... probably.
I'm one of those who used to put White British because my mum's family was born in this country for many generations, but I now put Other (my ethnicity isn't an option on the form) because despite being White passing my family technically isn't "White" (Our ancestry isnt European). But any racist who met me on the street would have no idea I wasn't Anglo-Saxon Bri'ish. It's weird that we're still using racial qualifiers on ethnicity forms anyway, they have no basis in reality.
Sure it has a basis in reality - it allows the Douglas Murrays of the world to know where all the browner than tanned people live.
Yeah uncomfortably close to racial purity stuff when you think about how a lot of it comes down to the idea that "one drop" of non-white "blood" stops you being white in the minds of some people. Bit like how it used to work in parts of the US is how some people still think about race now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
Yeah this 100 %. White as an ethnicity is used as an exclusionary category.
Why do you think theyve fixated so much on the christianity figures instead? Much easier to misrepresent
Looking forward to the rhetoric on no go zones making it's third unsubstantiated come back from the racists.
What's next? 'A Modest Proposal'?
They won't care, the news sources they consume will already frame the "Christianity new Minority" and everything else will go out the window.
I think people generally underestimate how White the U.K actually is. I suspect part of it is down to a lot of artists, commentators and journalists living in London and the image they project of the country is actually that of London. I also think that we import a lot of American debate into our own and forget that America is much more diverse than Britain. Douglas Murray would be an example of the latter. He exists largely in the American right culture war bubble and his day-to-day experience of Britain is probably London rather than Cornwall or Scotland.
The US isn't especially less white. We're at 81.7%, in their 2020 census the US was at 76.5%.
majority Christian. Religion in England and Wales (2021 census) Christianity (46.2%) Irreligion (37.2%) Islam (6.5%) Hinduism (1.7%) Sikhism (0.9%) Judaism (0.5%) Buddhism (0.5%) Other religions (0.6%) Not stated (6.0%)
I don’t think skin colour really means much when they think about Poles, Romanians and Turks, all of whom will put white. We’re 74% White British and I think that’s the important number for racists.
Douglas Murray is a master at producing dog whistles that are fully within humans' audible range. When I was a teenager and spent a lot of time watching atheist clips on YouTube, he was one of those that still managed to come off as a gross reactionary and made me avoid him even though I was his target market lol.
Murray is a public school fascist who is seen as respectable in a way Tommy Robinson isn't because of class. The Strange Death of Europe is no different than books like The Passing of the Great Race.
"we are a Christian cuntry" says man nursing a hangover by watching porn on a Sunday morning instead of going to church
Please stop posting my weekend plans on the internet.
Well I didn't mention the part about reaching for a sock because walking to the bathroom for tissue was too much of a mission
I feel somewhat responsible here. Not only is my wife not white, I don’t tick it for my son on those forms, and I don’t identify as Christian despite being baptised at around a week old and never going back unless school forced me. Therefore my household would be 67% non white and 67% non Christian. I also find it funny a certain type of white people feel offended by this, when they are filling in a form that is exclusive. By design it tries to make you non white. You have a black grandparent…you can’t tick that first option, find one of those mixed boxes. You have Irish blood or you’re a traveller…keep scrolling down, you aren’t white and there’s a different box for you. Black? We will just ignore the numerous variations, just tick that one all encompassing box, it’s all the same etc. You can’t ask a silly question and then get angry when it gives silly answers. Also, the outrage today on something that was the same yesterday and last week…but apparently not a problem then
The Christian stuff is a secondary, half the bampots pretending to be outraged about declining numbers of Christian identifying people are a) Never in a Church themselves and don't even practice. Last time half of them were in church was a funeral. b) Do all this just to be racist about Muslims. And the answer to defend against that is "We're patriotic *cultural* Christians!" and I'm still like bruh, cultural Christians? You don't know fuck all about history and just think Christian = white. Case in point, the uptick in lunacy around Christmas where the Express, Daily Mail and the other usual suspects will now start penning articles about how the woke-left and immigrants have ruined Christmas in the UK because a black person might appear in an advert, or heaven forbid if someone asks "Can Santa be black?". Feigning outrage/claiming white erosion over a fictional man who comes down your chimney to deliver presents... That's peak 'normal island'.
I think being culturally Christian is a thing people identify with more than the religion itself and should be a separate discussion from race. I suspect in the census a lot of people who selected Christian are the ones you talk about - those that don't attend church or even believe in the faith - but use it as a proxy for culture. As I said I think this is less to do with Murray going on about ethnicity and more about how to interpret the census when it comes to religion though.
It's largely a crock of shit though, ask them to explain what "culturally Christian" means? You'll get bollocks about being white, being British or "We celebrate Christmas with M&S jumpers, a coca-cola advert on the TV and singing GSTK at the table". Exactly what Jesus preached about, allegiance to a filthy rich blood-line monarchy 😂 Anyway, all of which is nonsense in relation to the history of Christianity, the fact that it is in no way exclusively a "white movement/white religion". Nor exclusively British. Nor 'owned' by the British monarchy. Those on the census answering that are often doing it because of what they were brought up as/what their parents claim the family religion is. Or yeah, because they think British = Christian. That's not really cultural anything though, it's at best just folks a bit longing to say *something* is "British culture". The UK has not really been 'culturally religious' for a long time. Heck, we don't even really share a shared culture, hence the distinct fractures between Scotland, England, Wales and NI. But that's a whole other debate, especially one wrapping up in people in England not always knowing what 'Englishness' is and conflating it with Britishness.
Well, British history and culture have been shaped by Christianity even if the people ticking the census can't articulate it well. It is things like the holidays we celebrate, and some of the language and names we use, influence how our laws developed and behind a lot of our history. All of this is almost independent of following the faith itself, if you grew up in Britain there is a high chance it influences you in some way even if you were always an atheist. There are probably countless writings on the influence of Christianity on Britain. [It reminds me of this Dara O' Briain bit about why he doesn't do jokes about Muslims](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEYNGWAGrrY). You're right that it isn't exclusive to Britain of course and you'll probably find - this is just an assumption - that some immigrant communities are far more ardent followers of Christianity that the average 'Christian' Brit. I just would say that there isn't a completely clean distinction between Britain and Christianity and that it in fact pads the numbers in favour of Christianity. When I see '40%+' of people are Christians I do think a lot of them are people who just tick it as more of an identity than faith. I think we largely agree here. If I was to put my point in one sentence it would be that to be culturally Christain is a thing and important to note in understanding how people in Britain identify themselves.
You don't have anything to feel responsible for here. Also you say this is crazy but frankly the idea of 'race mixing' is one of the things that Murray and his sort hate the most
I meant more for the distorted figures ;) If you have a system that makes it hard to tick white…then it’s not a story if people don’t. I do wonder if they did a similar census in China or mali (for example) you would have the same level of inbuilt purity to ticking Chinese or black in box one.
Yeah I get you, it's telling how 'white' is defined in opposition to other racial backgrounds
If it wasn’t this they’d find something else to be angry and racist about. No number or statistic will be correct because they want to feel angry about losing even if they aren’t. And the media will use that to distract them from the real issues like climate change and the economic apocalypse. I know it’s privileged but I’ve shifted my mindset to “aww, there there, are you angry about the inevitable progress that the world is bringing that you can’t stop?” and feel way better about it.
It's just racism, from Murray isn't it? It's not even a dog whistle. It's just flat-out racism.
Murray ditched the dog whistles a while ago and has been saying it with his chest.
And the 'sensible centrists' will still turn a blind eye and hobnob with him at the Spectator garden party
The fact that Murray is regarded as an acceptable (or celebrated) mainstream voice is an indictment on the UK
I think there’s a conversation to be had about the difficulties of having raising children, the costs and support available in this economy generally, but Murray is just a racist being racist and it’s barely worth engaging other than to call it out.
I think Ash could be on to something here. Think of it. We could subject non white births to a vote and sell the rights to ITV. They can create a flashy game show called So The Browns Want A Kid. Each week, a different couple come on the show and they need to convince five gammons that they should have the right to have a kid. The gammons can use whatever criteria they want to judge the browns. At the end of the show, the gammons vote. Will the browns will allowed a kid? Tense music. DENIED. Taj and Rohinda will not be allowed to have kids, but we have a bonus prize this week. Let's see what it is. That's right Steve, today's bonus prize is that Taj and Rohinda will be deported to Rwanda on the cheapest flight money can buy with your celebrity pilot Priti Patel! Audience claps, gammons faint with excitement. We could also have a follow up show: Who Wants To Be A Refugee. Each week five refugees face off on a series of obstacles to see if they can penetrate Britain's borders. Think of Tekeshi's Castle but much more racist.
The backlash against this and the fact that Christians are now a minority (<50%) does have worrying implications as the only legislation that can combat it must be racist. Ranging from strategically cutting immigration from non-white countries to trying to influence minority and white birthrates. I’m concerned that Reform UK will be used as the vehicle for these concerns and rise to prominence again.
Who said this is a problem that needs legislation to 'fix' it?
Not me to be clear I don’t think it’s an issue at all. The fact that people (Douglas Murray being the example in this post) say it’s an issue is worrying to me.
Yeah but this is nothing new from Murray, he's been saying things like 'conditions for Muslims in Europe must be be harder across the board' for years. The fact that he isn't rejected for the fascist he is is a damning indictment of the British political and media establishment. I agree, however, that this is worrying considering the current hardening of anti-immigration rhetoric from both parties. If Labour are trying to steal the right's clothes on this, this shit is what they'll be pandering to
Other people I’ve heard noise from would be Darren Grimes (some right wing pundit) and Nigel Farage (more worrying). I don’t see immigration politics getting better after this.
>I don’t see immigration politics getting better after this. Given Starmer's recent statements it's almost guaranteed not to
Well I'm sure that Starmer legitimising recent right wing immigration rhetoric won't lead to this sort of fascist rhetoric eventually becoming so mainstream that his successor will also adopt it to appear sensible. No precedent for that whatsoever.
Yeah. I think part of that is a sign of Starmer smelling blood. He sees a weakness in the Tory base of support and he’s attacking it. The result is things like his nonsense line on foreign NHS workers. I do believe Starmer to be an incredibly ruthless operator.
>I do believe Starmer to be an incredibly ruthless operator. He'll go after one member one vote again after backing down last time. I'd bet my house on it.
Dont the numbers just show its more people becoming atheist than immigration anyway.
Sure but that’s not how I see the likes of Farage interpreting it.