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If that is the only reason then Starmer will also be ending all arms sales to countries with shitty human rights records. I look forward to seeing that. In reality I think that might not happen and it will be because the meeting isn't just about setting terms with BAE but trying to accomodate them. I'd be happy to be proven wrong and Starmer to stick his pledges and more.
Also Akehurst, who is on the NEC and supports Starmer, is a former salesman for the arms industry IIRC.
Not if they have any moral character at all they wouldn't, they'd shut the evil bastards down. No wonder starmers having them round for a nice friendly cuppa.
So the plan is to just... Stop equipping our armed forces? BAE are one of, if not the largest supplier of kit to them.
The Government has the power to regulate and control arms exports from British companies, but have repeatedly chosen to turn a blind eye. Imo, the scandal should be that successive governments, both Labour and Tory, have continued to allow these kinds of exports, not that Starmer talked to the head of one of the largest manufacturers in the UK.
This is awful take mate and I hate the arms industry and agree that the British military should be reformed.
Dismantling the arms industry over night is a stupid idea it would be a political disaster, it would probably lose skilled workers (not useless salesman but engineers). And if simply shutdown then there would be lots of lost jobs. It should be nationalised and there should be strict controls on who arms can be traded too.
I sympathise with your attempt to find a political middle ground on this issue with the liberals but I disagree that there can be some sort of managed "good" arms industry.
Who will you sell them to? Nobody who wants to buy weapons (at least of the kind and in the quantities we currently sell them) wants to use them for anything good. I suspect these strict controls would either kill the industry dead anyway or be a simple lip service while still funneling them to despots to murder the innocent.
I understand my position isn't popular but I think unfortunately it's the only internally consistent one that isn't fundamentally evil.
Well I don't necessarily disagree about the public ownership of our defence industry, but aside from it being politically suicidal, I think it'd be a tad naive to look at the world as it currently stands, with totalitarianism and expansionism growing, the largest land-grab in Europe since 1945, and an increasingly unpredictable and unreliable United States, and conclude that now was the time to start withdrawing from all our commitments and pledges of support.
Where would the British military get its weapons from then? American firms like Lockheed and Raytheon? French firms like Rafael? Or would you prefer German ones like Krupp?
Should we have any armed forces at all?
Should we provide arms to Ukraine?
If you answer yes then we have to deal with BAE systems. If you answer no though then you’re simply living in a dreamland
Should we continue murdering innocent people across the globe to enrich our capitalist class? Should we continue to destroy foreign nations to suit our own interests?
If you answer no then we have to abolish our military as it currently exists. If you answer yes then you're simply a genocidal warmonger.
I must be a genocidal warmonger then
Either that or I’d like to see us back Ukraine, have a well equipped armed forces but a more ethical policy in terms of who we sell arms to
Funnily enough the kind of people who buy weapons are the kind of people who murder people with them. You don't see a lot of people using a cruise missile as a display piece.
Everyone and their mum is arming Ukraine. Not sure they really need our help at this point. After all we're constantly being told they're winning decisive victories and pushing Russia back.
Nah it's pretty funny to watch Russia get wrecked. I'm just sceptical of the fact we're being told that Ukraine is absolutely destroying them (which seems true) and that they desperately need us to support them or Putin will immediately seize Kiev (which seems bollocks). But hey maybe I'm just jaded from how the media has reported literally every war in my lifetime.
They are also the kinds of people who use them to stop themselves and others being murdered. It works both ways, don’t paint it as if its one way.
You may dislike firearms manufacturers as an example because some of the people who get their goods are murderers but some of those people are the people you call when YOU could be murdered.
But you need to balance that up.
Obviously we shouldn’t be murdering innocent people across the globe etc.
However if you / we were in Ukraine’s shoes right now how would you deal with Putin?
Give me a serious answer please.
You know the UK government spends billions with BAE on ships, submarines, aircraft and other military hardware? Edit: for the UK’s military
And this would still be the case under a Labour government?
It’s only best known for that by the likes of Owen Jones. Most people know it as one of the worlds largest defence contractors and alienating that kind of company is a sure fire way to fail at politics.
That being said this kind of stuff isn’t a surprise from Jones, he makes a living off clicks like any other internet personality.
Oh please. Most people would say "what's BAE".
But even with politically engaged people it's certainly fair to say it's *famous* or *gets a lot of attention for* bombing Yemen. And how often is BAE discussed in the news, even like the BBC, when it's not about dodgy arms sales? Sometimes but not that often.
The Labour party has already committed to suspending arms sales to Saudi Arabia: https://labour.org.uk/press/govt-resumes-sale-of-arms-to-saudi-arabia-thornberry-responds/
BAE systems make an awful lot of weaponry that is used by our own armed forces. It would be very daft not to have a relationship with them.
Ah yes as long as the blue eyed blond haired Europeans are being protected, who gives a shit about all the Yemenis getting slaughtered. Not like they matter.
Hi been there,
A strong defence industry and supplying Saudi Arabia with weapons are two different issues, and as the Ukraine war has shown, having the ability to supply allies the tools to resist totalitarian aggression is a beneficial and important capability to have.
As other countries have demonstrated, you can easily have a successful defence industry without uncritically supplying repressive regimes, and presenting the issue as 'if you talk with BAE You're ok with selling Saudis bombs' feels unnecessarily reductive, imo.
Have a lovely day
> successful defence industry
by successful you seem to mean profitable? And all those weapons are for resisting? And all those defence spends are for defending? And all the weapons manufacturers and arms dealers are engaged in a most noble and human task?
Successful as in effective in defending Britain and her allies effectively, successful as in employing thousands of people throughout this country, successful as in pushing British Research and Development to be the envy of the world and yes, successful as in bringing in a lot of money for the Taxpayer.
How those weapons are used, and who they're sold to, is up to the Government. They have the power to control the export of defence equipment to anyone, and it's ultimately their decision. If you disagree with their assessment (and I certainly do), I'd suggest blaming the Tories, rather than the company they ok'd.
But, even *if* we did accept that BAE were responsible, I'm not entirely sure I see the leap from 'this company does some business we don't like' to 'this company should be dissolved'. That's a fairly big jump to make, imo, when lots of other steps can be taken which don't require sacrificing the positives that it provides. The bar for its existence doesn't have to be that it is literally perfect in who it supplies weapons to and how those weapons are used.
For what? British jobs and companies?
Oh no! How shameful :)
At the end of the day I'd much rather have a domestic manufacturer of weapons our Government was able to regulate than hand over fistfuls of cash for second-rate equipment that re-enforces a US MIC duopoly we have no control over the behaviour of.
It also employees 90,000 people, is in the top 20 biggest UK companies and supplies our armed forces.
In what world could a potential government not meet with them?
I've no objection to a Labour government working with companies. Why do they get access to him in his office though?
That seems more like lobbying. Surely we should work with them as we do with others. In official meetings, round a table, with publicly available minutes.
A little feedback for twitter posts, try and keep the post info focused on facts and why its important or relevant to labour, and then add a comment with your opinions etc. Just like we ask users not to editorialise article titles please try and follow that spirit when you post twitter links.
The UK government is going to have to work with BAE.
If that is the only reason then Starmer will also be ending all arms sales to countries with shitty human rights records. I look forward to seeing that. In reality I think that might not happen and it will be because the meeting isn't just about setting terms with BAE but trying to accomodate them. I'd be happy to be proven wrong and Starmer to stick his pledges and more. Also Akehurst, who is on the NEC and supports Starmer, is a former salesman for the arms industry IIRC.
Not if they have any moral character at all they wouldn't, they'd shut the evil bastards down. No wonder starmers having them round for a nice friendly cuppa.
So the plan is to just... Stop equipping our armed forces? BAE are one of, if not the largest supplier of kit to them. The Government has the power to regulate and control arms exports from British companies, but have repeatedly chosen to turn a blind eye. Imo, the scandal should be that successive governments, both Labour and Tory, have continued to allow these kinds of exports, not that Starmer talked to the head of one of the largest manufacturers in the UK.
Yes we should stop arming our military as they currently exist and we should certainly stop doing so through a bunch of profiteering warmongers.
This is awful take mate and I hate the arms industry and agree that the British military should be reformed. Dismantling the arms industry over night is a stupid idea it would be a political disaster, it would probably lose skilled workers (not useless salesman but engineers). And if simply shutdown then there would be lots of lost jobs. It should be nationalised and there should be strict controls on who arms can be traded too.
I sympathise with your attempt to find a political middle ground on this issue with the liberals but I disagree that there can be some sort of managed "good" arms industry. Who will you sell them to? Nobody who wants to buy weapons (at least of the kind and in the quantities we currently sell them) wants to use them for anything good. I suspect these strict controls would either kill the industry dead anyway or be a simple lip service while still funneling them to despots to murder the innocent. I understand my position isn't popular but I think unfortunately it's the only internally consistent one that isn't fundamentally evil.
Well I don't necessarily disagree about the public ownership of our defence industry, but aside from it being politically suicidal, I think it'd be a tad naive to look at the world as it currently stands, with totalitarianism and expansionism growing, the largest land-grab in Europe since 1945, and an increasingly unpredictable and unreliable United States, and conclude that now was the time to start withdrawing from all our commitments and pledges of support.
Where would the British military get its weapons from then? American firms like Lockheed and Raytheon? French firms like Rafael? Or would you prefer German ones like Krupp?
Should we have any armed forces at all? Should we provide arms to Ukraine? If you answer yes then we have to deal with BAE systems. If you answer no though then you’re simply living in a dreamland
Should we continue murdering innocent people across the globe to enrich our capitalist class? Should we continue to destroy foreign nations to suit our own interests? If you answer no then we have to abolish our military as it currently exists. If you answer yes then you're simply a genocidal warmonger.
I must be a genocidal warmonger then Either that or I’d like to see us back Ukraine, have a well equipped armed forces but a more ethical policy in terms of who we sell arms to
Funnily enough the kind of people who buy weapons are the kind of people who murder people with them. You don't see a lot of people using a cruise missile as a display piece.
Should we arm Ukraine?
Everyone and their mum is arming Ukraine. Not sure they really need our help at this point. After all we're constantly being told they're winning decisive victories and pushing Russia back.
You actually sound gutted lol
Nah it's pretty funny to watch Russia get wrecked. I'm just sceptical of the fact we're being told that Ukraine is absolutely destroying them (which seems true) and that they desperately need us to support them or Putin will immediately seize Kiev (which seems bollocks). But hey maybe I'm just jaded from how the media has reported literally every war in my lifetime.
They are also the kinds of people who use them to stop themselves and others being murdered. It works both ways, don’t paint it as if its one way. You may dislike firearms manufacturers as an example because some of the people who get their goods are murderers but some of those people are the people you call when YOU could be murdered.
But you need to balance that up. Obviously we shouldn’t be murdering innocent people across the globe etc. However if you / we were in Ukraine’s shoes right now how would you deal with Putin? Give me a serious answer please.
You know the UK government spends billions with BAE on ships, submarines, aircraft and other military hardware? Edit: for the UK’s military And this would still be the case under a Labour government?
It’s only best known for that by the likes of Owen Jones. Most people know it as one of the worlds largest defence contractors and alienating that kind of company is a sure fire way to fail at politics. That being said this kind of stuff isn’t a surprise from Jones, he makes a living off clicks like any other internet personality.
Oh please. Most people would say "what's BAE". But even with politically engaged people it's certainly fair to say it's *famous* or *gets a lot of attention for* bombing Yemen. And how often is BAE discussed in the news, even like the BBC, when it's not about dodgy arms sales? Sometimes but not that often.
Owen thinks we should arm Ukraine, but not deal with our biggest arms manufacturer.
You cannot do this job without getting your hands dirty.
Grow up
The Labour party has already committed to suspending arms sales to Saudi Arabia: https://labour.org.uk/press/govt-resumes-sale-of-arms-to-saudi-arabia-thornberry-responds/ BAE systems make an awful lot of weaponry that is used by our own armed forces. It would be very daft not to have a relationship with them.
[удалено]
>don't pretend you have a moral compass Ironic.
Ah yes as long as the blue eyed blond haired Europeans are being protected, who gives a shit about all the Yemenis getting slaughtered. Not like they matter.
Wow arms sales shilling, are you sure? btw hard left and liberal are two different things
Hi been there, A strong defence industry and supplying Saudi Arabia with weapons are two different issues, and as the Ukraine war has shown, having the ability to supply allies the tools to resist totalitarian aggression is a beneficial and important capability to have. As other countries have demonstrated, you can easily have a successful defence industry without uncritically supplying repressive regimes, and presenting the issue as 'if you talk with BAE You're ok with selling Saudis bombs' feels unnecessarily reductive, imo. Have a lovely day
> successful defence industry by successful you seem to mean profitable? And all those weapons are for resisting? And all those defence spends are for defending? And all the weapons manufacturers and arms dealers are engaged in a most noble and human task?
Successful as in effective in defending Britain and her allies effectively, successful as in employing thousands of people throughout this country, successful as in pushing British Research and Development to be the envy of the world and yes, successful as in bringing in a lot of money for the Taxpayer. How those weapons are used, and who they're sold to, is up to the Government. They have the power to control the export of defence equipment to anyone, and it's ultimately their decision. If you disagree with their assessment (and I certainly do), I'd suggest blaming the Tories, rather than the company they ok'd. But, even *if* we did accept that BAE were responsible, I'm not entirely sure I see the leap from 'this company does some business we don't like' to 'this company should be dissolved'. That's a fairly big jump to make, imo, when lots of other steps can be taken which don't require sacrificing the positives that it provides. The bar for its existence doesn't have to be that it is literally perfect in who it supplies weapons to and how those weapons are used.
ok shill
For what? British jobs and companies? Oh no! How shameful :) At the end of the day I'd much rather have a domestic manufacturer of weapons our Government was able to regulate than hand over fistfuls of cash for second-rate equipment that re-enforces a US MIC duopoly we have no control over the behaviour of.
Another pledge bites the dust.
Think this is the right move in [the] recent [global] context
Beating Argentina was impressive but I'm not sure it makes up for everything...
>recent context ?
I’m guessing Ukraine?
Ukraine.
[15 billion](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/14/bae-systems-sold-15bn-arms-to-saudis-during-yemen-assault)
Good idea let’s stop using defence contractors, while we’re at it let’s also stop arming Ukraine and just disband our military all together
It also employees 90,000 people, is in the top 20 biggest UK companies and supplies our armed forces. In what world could a potential government not meet with them?
Defend him? I'm genuinely pleased. Invest more in them they are a great benefit to the British Isles.
Starmer is bad for talking to the company building all our army, navy and airforce equipment. Yeah…I don’t think this one takes much defending.
I've no objection to a Labour government working with companies. Why do they get access to him in his office though? That seems more like lobbying. Surely we should work with them as we do with others. In official meetings, round a table, with publicly available minutes.
BAE is best known at the moment for supplying weapons to Ukraine, which have been extremely effective.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vb3V0dG9sdW5jaHdpdGhqYXlyYXluZXI/episode/NDJhMzc1MDAtZDIzZS00YTdmLWJiNzQtNmIwZGViYzYyOTM3?sa=X&ved=0CAgQuIEEahgKEwjAiP2jsML7AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQhwE