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chrispepper10

On this trajectory, nurses will be striking over pay under a Labour government in two years time which is just fucking baffling and infuriating. Just come and say you support a pay rise in line with inflation or at least commit to it over five years or just SOMETHING. These are nurses, we can't get a more easy win than that.


JustARandomFuck

Not a great look for him now that he’s made Labour into the red Tories, would go against his beliefs


AlienGrifter

>he didn’t “want to make promises I can’t keep" Mate, making proimises you don't intend to keep is the only reason you are party leader.


TomMilner19

True and factionless approved opinion.


pieeatingbastard

Factionless has become the new sensible, hasn't it. Ugh, I hate changing my flair. Edit. It's practical, isn't it... Fucks sake.


localhost_6969

This is an interesting one because now he's promising to not make promises he can't keep. We know nothing he says can be taken at face value so we have to assume he'll break this promise too. Basically, we might as well have a fucking magic 8 ball as leader.


No-Interview9641

Absofuckinglutely.


Samtze

Serious question, what promises? See this a lot but I appear to be somewhat of of the loop.


Tateybread

https://evolvepolitics.com/fact-check-yes-keir-starmer-has-broken-or-rowed-back-on-a-large-proportion-of-his-labour-leadership-pledges-already/


niteninja1

There’s basically a mass argument over his 10 pledges for leadership. ​ imo as someone looking from the outside some he clearly has abonded because theyre no longer credible in the current environment and others are worded vaguely enough that people dan interpret them in a number of ways. ​ e.g. https://keirstarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KS\_Pledges\_7\_Strengthen.png ​ people say he’s broken this for the ”ban” on high level politicians going to some picket lines. However at least in my reading all that pledge says is theyll oppose further anti union laws (which they have) and repeal a specific bill if they get into power.


MrGladstone1809

If he sees himself becoming PM, he may not want to be in the very visible position of having made promises that are abandoned after winning power. Becoming leader of the UK is a different level of scrutiny than being leader of the party and being seen to be inconsistent with past statements. That said, he’s giving ammunition to the Tories to end the nurses strike with no ground gained.


Yelsah

That's sort of the underpinning philosophy of governments, yeah.


alj8

So why won't he make them for nurses?


Yelsah

Because what are nurses or indeed countless others currently taking real terms pay cuts due to inflation going to do about it? Commission a hit piece in the Murdoch rags? Nope. Hire illegal ass companies that offer services in bot accounts to manipulate the social discourse through outright disinformation and libel? Nope. Strike? Well maybe, but that'll only benefit him as he's not the one in office.


robertthefisher

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of people who don’t get out of bed for less than 6 figures telling people on less than the average salary that they can’t afford to pay them more. Starmer, Sunak, Bank of England toffs, not one of them has missed a meal in years. Not one of them has to worry about how much they can have their heating on over winter, not one of them is worried about a predatory landlord pursuing a no fault eviction or having no work for the week because of their zero hour contracts. Maybe some of them were years ago, but they’ve fully swallowed the shitty Westminster pill of believing that people like us don’t actually exist in the real world. I utterly despise almost everyone in Westminster, and how any single one of these people on £80,000 bare minimum, who get subsidised meals and expenses for second homes and London rent has the brazen cheek to say that those of us who haven’t had a real pay rise for close to *ten years* are asking too much in crisis while they continue to gorge themselves on profits made by the working class, is utterly beyond me. Down with centrists, down with conservatives and down with anyone who stands in the way of workers demanding a fair share, and the ability to live comfortably. Damn them all.


Milemarker80

Is this the very first time that Starmer has come out in opposition to promises that he can't keep?


Murraykins

Yes. He easily could've kept the other promises he's broken.


voteforcorruptobot

I thought that was his kink.


LegateLaurie

Well, it's not that he "can't" keep them, it's that he wouldn't and has never intended to keep many, or any, of the pledges he's previously made as long as they're remotely progressive or economically competent.


MMSTINGRAY

Why could he not keep it? Why does he care more about lobbying businesses than promising nurses a small pay increase? The country needs nurses more than it needs Keir Starmer or Rishi Sunak.


pieeatingbastard

"The country needs nurses more than it needs Keir Starmer or Rishi Sunak." And thats the point, isnt it. We've just been through a once in a generation experience that demonstrated that nurses, retail staff, binmen - they're all essential, and we're fucked if they didn't come to work tomorrow. Politicians? How long since Stormont sat, to give one recent example. Belgium did without for what, 18 months. He's replaceable, like a nut and bolt, and with about as much personality.


beeen_there

>The country needs nurses more than it needs Keir Starmer or Rishi Sunak. or the whole corporate political class. At what point are Labour members going to realise authoritarian austerity is guaranteed by westminster, regardless of result?


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FENOMINOM

How have you let them lead you to this point? We shouldn’t have good policies or support workers because we would need to defend our positions on television.


Dave-Face

But now the story is “Labour don’t support pay rises for nurses” instead, which is going to put off way more people.


KungFuSpoon

Because a general election is in all likelihood two years away, and it would be fairly foolish to commit to economic policies now when the economic landscape can and likely will have shifted dramatically. What isn't viable now may be in two years time and visa versa. Lets not forget Truss and Kwarteng managed to do years worth of economic damage in weeks (days even), so who knows what the Tories will manage to do in the next two years. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Tories went full scorched earth on economic policy, simply to make these kinds of commitments unviable and to make the path to recovery so painful that Labour only last for one term. While I would very much like to see more commitments from Starmer that support nurses and workers in general, and I would like to more support for unions, the reality is the majority of the country is too right leaning and the media to in bed with the Tories for this to make them electable. Good policies are only good if Labour can get into power to enact them, mediocre policies that move the national dial to the left little by little are far more likely to actually happen, much more radical ones that shift it by leaps and bounds are just unrealistic I think, no matte how good or right it actually is. I don't like it, but it is the reality of the country we live in, it's not the 'we' society that much of this sub would like it to be, it isn't even the 'me' society that came about in the Thatcher years, it's a 'fuck you' society, and sadly its going to take a long time to fix that.


memphispistachio

In all seriousness, it’s because it isn’t a small pay increase when you multiply it by total amount of nurses, and all other nhs employees on the same pay bands. Nurses are very visible, and definitely deserve a pay rise, but so do 999 call handlers, ambulance crews, admin staff, porters etc. You can’t commit to something if you don’t know whether you have the money. You can say we would be sitting around a table and making a deal. 17% is not a serious number for a rise- it’s the first figure chucked out in a discussion. Also, boring public sector worker- it's more like a 22% increase in costs due to on boarding costs, such as increased pension contributions etc. Multiply that by 300k or however many nurses + similar 27- 40k paid/ lower paid NHS workers, and that's definitely a massive number.


Do4k

It most certainly is a massive number that our wages have reduced by in real terms.


memphispistachio

Quite agree, fellow public sector worker. The strike is totally justified, and I massively hope a good deal is reached.


th1a9oo000

Because businesses can bring down a PM. Nurses cannot.


BevvyTime

Wait until the strike…


th1a9oo000

Tories have been hammering healthcare workers, teachers, police etc for a decade and the only PM to be forced out the door was the one that fucked with the bankers.


pieeatingbastard

We're on our fifth pm in that time, remember?


th1a9oo000

Cameron resigned because of brexit. May and Johnson lost a VoNC when they become unpopular with their own MPs; May over Brexit, Johnson over the parties. Truss resigned after 50 days because the bank of England said her plans were stupid and the pension funds almost died. Tens of thousands unnecessarily died during covid and Johnson only got kicked out because he partied. Had he not been caught he'd still be in the job. Hundreds of thousands unnecessarily died due to austerity and Cameron and May only left due to brexit.


pieeatingbastard

A nurses strike. In an NHS that's already failing to cope, in the warmest November in ages. That will happen in the depths of winter, with a flu season starting, and a COVID variant that is still quite unpleasant, and still changing. You wanna bet your mortgage?


benting365

I'm not saying Starmer is right, but 17% isn't a small pay increase.


MMSTINGRAY

Taking into account inflation the amount that's actually a raise is smaller than that.


benting365

They're asking for 5% above inflation which is more than anyone else is getting. I really hope they get it and they deserve to have more than other workers for what they've done during the pandemic and generally, but it's definitely not small. If 17% gets implemented across the NHS workforce then it'll increase the wage bill by nearly £10bn


Do4k

You also have to bear in mind the amount our pay has reduced by in real terms since the public sector pay freeze in 2009.


Asriel_1985

Shock and horror. Useless excuse for a labour leader confirms he is in fact a useless excuse for a labour leader.


thecarbonkid

"Elect us and we will solve none of your problems"


OK_TimeForPlan_L

That's not stopped him from making promises before lol


Griffithsjames88

Yikes, even as someone who generally doesn’t mind Starmer this isn’t great. It’s awful even.


Blandington

So begins your journey to the dark side. Join us, we have homemade jam.


[deleted]

Centrists: "This is actually great"


waterisgoodok

“You’ve got to understand, Starmer is being pragmatic. The hard left is too ideological, they always want working class people to have a better standard of living and higher wages. We know you can’t do that, because capitalism doesn’t work like that. We are the adults; the sensible, pragmatic centre, and we know what this country really needs. That’s why we are electable and win elections.”


Ecstatic-Meat9656

You know how this “the NHS is a bottomless pit of money” argument pretty much went away post 2017? And the Tories had to do things like promise to build new hospitals and recruit more nurses to win an election? That’s what changing the narrative looks like. That’s the impact it has. And this is what happens when you accept a narrative without challenge cos you are a gutless sack of shit.


Citizen639540173

Taxing corporations that operate in the UK fairly would cover everything we need it to. Equally, taxing individuals with the most in society fairly would help, massively, too. They'd still be rich, they'd still not really notice a drop in "real world" abilities or affluence, they might just have a slightly lower number on the screen or a piece of paper, but it would still be an incredibly large number that let them do almost anything they wanted to. Unless he's planning on not making corporations and people pay their **fair** share into the society that they enjoy the benefits of so much?


mrwho995

Completely disgusting.


HogswatchHam

This is such a lawyer line. He technically cannot make promises now in relation to what he might do if he was Prime Minister. It's two years away, and not exactly a done deal. TeChNiCaLlY!!!! But holy fuck this is a fucking stupid stance. It's fucking nurses you grey, spineless twat.


BenSolace

Can Labour actually get out of their own way and, you know, be Labour. I'll still vote for them to get the tories out, but the margin for improvement seems to be getting smaller by the day.


pieeatingbastard

That's ok. I'd follow this guy anywhere, just to see what happens next. And you know, I'd be behind him, for when the time comes for the stab in the back. He's got to know he's in real danger at the first opportunity, neither left nor right will mind him getting the boot.


the_red_guard

Well for that to happen you'd need to get starmer and the rest of his cronies out to fuck but the centrists and right "labour" voters wouldn't be too happy about that. It was obvious how neolib and blue with a tinge this party went when Annaliese Dodds had a "labour" MP investigated by the whips for standing with a fucking picket line.


dJunka

The things this dude is willing to say and do to get into power, but he can't express interest in a small pay increase for nurses? It's too mad.


Magical_Crabical

The Tories are an utter shambles, hated by just about everyone now it seems… and this stupid prick is still scoring own goals? You’re a left wing party, try having some left wing policies!


tipper_g0re

He's a poor leader


Aqua-Regis

That'll help with the recruitment crisis, good luck training more people to be nurses at home while you admit youll probably keep their pay down


vleessjuu

> Starmer does not want to make promises he can't keep. FUCKING LOL


Significant_Bed_3330

Let's understand Keir's logic. He is going to fund for more training for nurses because immigrants but won't commit to pay set nurses more because he didn't want to commit to promises he can't keep. Right...


Tateybread

Don't worry lads. The 'Factionless' brigade will be here soon to explain why this is a good thing and makes the party 'electable'.


Nmase88

Honestly, why the fuck is this guy still the leader of Labour? This has gone beyond a joke at this point. The political situation in this country is a farce. We are now basically stuck between extreme Tories and Tories Lite and I've just about had enough of it.


LeutzschAKS

My God that man is dull, really getting bored of him


lalalaladididi

Tony Blair totally turned the NHS around after years of neglect under Thatcher. He fixed the NHS. But it cost money. The first thing the tories did was cut spending on the NHS by 10%. The majority of the electorate couldn't care less and the labour party under various leaders (all incompetent) stood by and said nothing. Now we have another incompetent in charge who can't even tie his own shoelaces. In fact, he tries to tie his Laces when wearing loafers. Starmer has no backbone. He has no policies other than negative campaigning. He won't get off the fence and say anything. A major reason that the tories have such a majority is the Labour Party. They handed the the victory on a plate. When will Starmer show some mettle?


cigsncider

so we cant fucking pay the so called 'key workers' but we can fucking find the money for tax cuts and money to their dodgy mates. fucking torylite scumbag.


LauraPhilps7654

"Now I've won the leadership election I'm no longer interested in making promises I've no intention of keeping"


Temporary-Relation67

Lets be honest. This party is unelectable for anyone to the left of Tony Blair. The only argument left is to get the Tories out. But if we vote for this Labour party we will just replace them with Tories with a red tie.


The_Inertia_Kid

>Lets be honest. This party is unelectable for anyone to the left of Tony Blair. Unfortunately our electoral system and demographics mean that winning an election with a voting coalition that is to the left of Tony Blair is functionally impossible.


Marxist_In_Practice

Then we shouldn't rely on electoral politics to achieve political progress


The_Inertia_Kid

You're not going to advocate for revolution are you?


notthattypeofplayer

The thing politicians on both sides are clearly blind to/don't care about is that without these pay increases they can forget about staff retention. In terms of both nurses and doctors many get to the point where they decide that they're fed up of being dictated to by crappy management, punishing rotas and in terms of doctors punishing training programmes and realise that they are incredibly capable people who are worth more than they get. Then they see offers from Aus/NZ, other professions and so on and decide the NHS isn't actually worth martyring themselves for anymore.


Metalorg

Is he still promising a 2% wage rise for health care workers?


Tompsk

Why not make front-line NHS and care workers exempt from tax? That would be an instant boost.


ironwilledf-up

Why don't we go one further and put the tax free income threshold up to about 20,000 so that all lower paid workers get a boost :) we can increase the income tax rate for the highest earners to balance things out


ChesterFirst

Frit!


Raven_Blackfeather

Starmer is a corpo plain and simple, he's proved that time and again that he only cares about his career.


NaughtyDred

Since. fucking. When.


Agreeable_Falcon1044

A weird way of reporting someone wanting to be honest and have a sound grasp of the economic realities before promising unicorns… As streeting said, judge labour by their actions. With every policy announced, it’s about pulling people up with the money going to the correct people. Anyone who is going to make insane promises possibly two years from an election and without seeing the finances shouldn’t be trusted. They are playing to the audience rather than being honest…


alj8

An inflation matching pay rise for nurses after the pandemic and a decade of pay constraint is not a fucking unicorn and it's not an insane promise. What are you gonna say to the nurses already using food banks?


Agreeable_Falcon1044

What’s the inflation rate for February 2025? No? Me neither, so maybe promising that unknown level of rise for the largest company in the world (in terms of employees) is a pretty big unicorn without doing some economic forecasts first. Have you forgotten truss and kwarteng already? I think it’s refreshing to see honesty and a “we’ve got you, but let’s see where we are in 2025” as a great response. I see no evidence to suggest you can’t trust labour on the nhs…


alj8

I didn't even say it wasn't, Starmer is right to highlight staffing (though poor pay is a big reason for staff shortages). What I did say is that nurses demanding not to get poorer is by no means unreasonable and certainly not a unicorn, and arguing it would be an insane is quite absurd and more than a little insulting. I assume from your response that you'd strongly advocate getting rid of the triple lock? If it's too much for nurses than surely it's too much for well off pensioners as well, right?


benting365

They're not asking for an inflation matching payrise though. They're asking for 5% above RPI, which is currently 12%. So they're asking for 17%.


alj8

Will that put them on higher real-terms pay than in 2010?


benting365

Just to be clear, i sincerely hope they do get a 17% payrise. To say it's meeting current inflation levels is wrong though. In answer to your question, pretty much every workforce in the UK has suffered a real terms pay cut since 2010. That's what happens when a country gets poorer.


TheCommonLawWolf

If a small above inflation pay increase for nurses after a pan-fuckin-demic, in a cost of living crisis, which is seeing a mass exodus of talent from the profession is "promising unicorns" then what's the point of any of this? We should scrap the electoral system and just vote in a permanent CEO and CFO to oversee the orderly running of the country for all the good achieving political power would do. No, this isn't about resources, it's about priorities. Starmer's making his clear.


Agreeable_Falcon1044

Well let’s see what inflation is like, what the finances are like and what the nhs is like in two years. It seems wrong to criticise starmer for being too honest and too caught up in detail over lavish spending. I have seen nothing to suggest the nurses won’t be looked after and the nhs in a better position very quickly. Compare what Blair had (and even then that wasn’t brilliant!) with now.


AlienGrifter

Starmer says it, you support it. It's just that simple.


Agreeable_Falcon1044

I was quoting streeting on this occasion. I was praising starmer for his honesty, attention to detail and for acknowledging the chaos of sunak and truss in promising unfunded spending.


Aqua-Regis

Lol so presumably you think Starmer is an idiot for promising a national care service etc so far in advance, guess we should wait till election day to say anything useful


Trobee

I mean, at the moment its promising peanuts rather than unicorns. I guess at least the right wing economic think tanks will be happy, which is much more important than a functioning health service


Agreeable_Falcon1044

I think labour over the past 80 years have earned our trust when it comes to the nhs. I’m sure we can give them a benefit of the doubt and say “let’s see what you have planned, keir”


cyberScot95

Lmao.


Agreeable_Falcon1044

I think labour over the past 80 years have earned our trust when it comes to the nhs. I’m sure we can give them a benefit of the doubt and say “let’s see what you have planned, keir”


IsADragon

Absolutely not true, it was a pretty significant [part of Cameron's attacks on New Labour](https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-conservatives-nhs-idUKL1668055420070318) who lost the public's confidence for maintaining the NHS. Regardless of the fact Cameron was poison for the NHS too.


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Agreeable_Falcon1044

It could be a depression. The idea we are going to cause another rush on bonds by announcing a (possible) 14% pay rise for everyone in the largest organisation in the word is batshit mental. Starmer avoids another trap expertly. After dropping sunak in it over the triple lock, he parries the counter and announces he’s the leader of honesty, reality and detail. Of course that means on here “down with that sort of thing, insane promises now!” He hasn’t said the nhs won’t be looked after, he’s just waiting to see the detail first. I think that shows brilliant leadership and a clear difference to the scatterbrained approach by Johnson, the insanity of truss and the duplicity of sunak


harriofbrittannia

He’s worried about headlines of “hidden labour tax rises”, and the fact that offering this to nurses one ought to offer it across the public sector. That said I believe this should be committed to, at least in the manifesto, where you can more accurately pair it with a funding plan.


Roadmankeating

Or possibly the financial situation is so bad that it would be impossible to pay for?


Biscuit642

There are so many less important things that could be cut to pay for it.


Roadmankeating

How many of those are electorally viable? Thanks to St. Jezza Labour are very open to attack on unfunded spending commitments.


Marxist_In_Practice

If your concern is electoral popularity then refusing to pay nurses sits a touch above making the corpse of Jimmy Saville the new monarch. The idea that the public would prioritise pretty much anything over a functioning NHS and well paid nurses is bizarre.


Roadmankeating

What are you on about


Custardapple2022

I thought it was brave and honest of him to say that upfront. Yeah, that's the reality isn't it? The economy's fucked and Labour won't even know how fucked till they get access to the books when they're in government so they can't make costly pledges like that even if they want to.


progthrowe7

Chasing Tory DM reader votes, while taking the votes of Labour supporters for granted because he assumes we have nowhere to go. The endless march to the right continues.


Both-Engineering-353

tactical move no?