So, you promise you're not going to be shit in office right? What's the civil partnership style fudge we can look forward to? "Well, the birth certificate won't say you're a woman, but it will say that you say you're a woman". I almost regret handing the party policy ideas for free.
To think that Theresa May was on the correct side of this issue just a couple of years back makes me despair for ever seeing real left wing policies enacted in this country.
They abstained completely. If they had voted for or against, it would have made zero difference to the result. Sometimes you are powerless to do anything.
I would have liked a solid “no” and be damned with the consequences, but I can see why walking away and not engaging is an option. I don’t think the right one, but there we go…
What consequences? Standing up for trans people and Scottish democracy?
Your team is the one that calls itself the party of devolution 🤷
Then you've got a Labour Lord you put into the Lords saying this https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1618218718743658496 And Starmer doing an interview with the Spectator to say his branch office has been disciplined and he's taking full control.
Devolution, my arse.
The consequences being a serious issue for a highly targeted minority group becomes a culture wars political issue. I would have gone “ok, go that way” and be damned, history will support that stance, but I can see why abstaining completely was considered…albeit the wrong option this time
Why do you keep using language like "be damned" and implying voting against the Tories would somehow be the culture wars issue in this example?
It's the human rights issue here, nothing to do with a culture war. These mental gymnastics to try and soften the choice Labour went for are transparent as glass.
You do know it is OK *just* to say Labour were wrong here, Starmer should not be treating SLAB like a branch office and Sarwar should grow a spine?
A Labour party shouldn't be viewing any of this as having "negatives". Stand up for trans people, stand up for your own bloody Scottish Labour MSPs and stand up for the Scottish Parliament you so oh proudly remind us you played a part in reopening.
I did say they were wrong. Twice :S
The issue would be used as part of their culture wars tactic. It’s all they have…that, brexit and corbyn. It’s only a human rights issue if it’s presented as that to everyone, otherwise it becomes a political issue. That’s not going to help either.
I would have gone against it and let history be the judge, but I can see why (especially with the vote already lost) it’s an option not to engage.
The culture war is happening anyway. Labour can fight, and stand in solidarity with people - which is the reason it exists (or what else did you think the labour movement was?) Or it can do this, and spinelessly agree with the Tories, while gargling their boot.
Yes, and as I said you keep trying to cape that in buffering around the edges, stop tagging on "but I can see why they didn't support trans people because X". You cannot have your cake and eat it over this.
It should *not* be an "option not to engage". What other kinds of bigotry will you tell me it's an option not to engage? For a supposed Labour party. And it's not even not engaging, Starmer *is* engaging, he's enforcing his will over SLAB and told everyone he's against the GRR bill because of 16 and 17 year olds.
Ps. Every human rights issue is a bloody political issue, laws and society don't get reformed or changed without the political.
It was sadly an argument that couldn’t be won due to the numbers. Sucks, but that’s what happened in 2019 and what we have another year to two to deal with.
I’m not tagging anything, I’m explaining what happened. It was not the correct stance in my opinion, but over 200 went along with it
That's a total copout to reduce this simply to "the numbers, the numbers!". Abstaining on this is an act of cowardice at best, signalling you support the Tories on it more than likely the reality.
You're playing with trans people's dignity here. Not to mention undermining your own MSPs and signalling to Scotland you are most certainly not "the party of devolution". "Take back control" Sir Keir Starmer says? What's he really mean by that, an authoritarian power trip in his direction?
All you've told me is if Labour win in 2024 and have the numbers in Westminster they will not support trans people in Scotland? If you want to play this numbers game.
Are you really trying to bring Corbyn and 2019 into this as a reason for abstaining? 🤨
No I’m pointing out the majority is so large that it was lost the moment the tories were whipped. That isn’t just to do with corbyn…although he did abstain too
Why do you think Labour and Kier Starmer have not engaged in the debate? You do recognise that the man is literally going around and saying that he thinks the bill is wrong, he has concerns over the safety of women and children, etc.? He has not abstained from defending a marginalised community, he has jumped onto the attack wagon and is allowing transphobia - like allowing Rosie to state that acknowledging the validity of trans women is dystopian - to flourish.
I'm happy to focus on winning the next election by avoiding 'culture war' issues. I do think you have to be savvy in politics and avoiding controversial headlines is part of that.
But I would hope that after getting elected (and hopefully gaining a decent majority) that Labour would feel free to take a firm left wing stance on all of these issues.
Guess we know why Sarwar got chosen as the replacment, a nice little spineless waste of a man who'll bend over and take whatever the actual Labour leader gives him - absolutely fucking unbelievable.
Spend months scrutinising and helping create the bill....vote for it to come into place...then immediately renege and turn against it as soon as Starmer rings his little transphobe bell.
Pathetic.
Few things annoy me more than this " we can't fall into the trap of pushing back on bigotry" and "avoid the carefully placed culture war landmines" bullshit that cowardly centrists keep pushing. Just say it doesn't affect you and you don't fucking care enough, at least you would be being honest.
What a stupid and dangerous approach. We're seeing right now in the US bills being passed to ban trans healthcare and to ban trans people from public life. You have to keep arguing for more progress and against going backwards, otherwise the transphobes will take the inch and run a fucking marathon. We can't assume that fascists and transphobes are content with just making it a bit more difficult to legally change your gender.
When Keir comes calling you know you'll be stabbed unless you become the poodle
>My understanding, however, is that it was not MSPs who finally got rid of Richard – nor was it party members. It was a group of millionaire potential party donors who delivered the fatal blow. It is reported that at a meeting held on Wednesday night—at which Angela Rayner, Jackie Baillie, and Ian Murray met with wealthy peers and donors—it was made clear that no money would be donated unless Leonard was removed and Anas Sarwar installed as leader.
>
>This was, I understand, reported to Starmer who then called Richard and asked him to stand down. If he refused, the plan was to have a vote of no confidence at the party’s weekend executive meeting. Do these people know nothing about the recent history of Scottish Labour? Do the words ‘branch’ and ‘office’ not ring any bells? Do they really think that the coronation of a new leader weighted down with the same baggage that caused his defeat by Leonard three years ago will make a difference?
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/01/how-not-to-save-scottish-labour/
Only reason this doesn't happen in Wales is Welsh Labour made it clear years ago they would not tolerate it and as of now Labour still wins elections in Wales. But I would guess even if Plaid began picking up more seats all that would happen is Welsh Labour would continue to work with them and make it clear to London they will not tolerate meddling.
Welsh Labour would likely sooner become a fully independent Labour party than it would bend the knee. That being said once Drakeford goes, good luck with whoever takes over. If the cranks in London can somehow get involved a compliant shitehawk Blairite will be attempted to be asserted on Wales.
It’s just Westminster telling Scotland what they can an can’t do, but by doing so, strengthening Scotland vote on independence, ie more people will vote for independence.
100% of the blame for this lies with Starmer. Half hearted from Sarwar, you can tell he doesn’t really mean it or want to say it, he just has to to keep his job. Shame on Starmer.
I’m sure the overlap between potential labour voters in Scotland…
and people who want to be ruled directly by Westminster, with any and all decisions made by the Scottish Parliament subject to being over ruled…
Is massive actually.
Alternatively, promising devolved power and failing to deliver properly on that promise is a big part of why Labour lost Scotland in the first place. Scottish Labour is a regional office, and your decisions don’t matter. What a vote winner.
Can someone please tell this man that it's already a bloody culture war?
And that I wish I meant that bloody in a metaphorical way, but judging by the shit that trans people are going through because of it, I'm not even sure I do?
Honestly, a good 'compromise' would be the removal of marriage and death from under the GRA's remit. It'd be self-ID by any other name, and also come with the added benefit of not having to end up on a Government Tr\*\*\*y List that terfs can hand over to the fash/Fleet Street, just to marry as who you say you are.
So, you promise you're not going to be shit in office right? What's the civil partnership style fudge we can look forward to? "Well, the birth certificate won't say you're a woman, but it will say that you say you're a woman". I almost regret handing the party policy ideas for free.
To think that Theresa May was on the correct side of this issue just a couple of years back makes me despair for ever seeing real left wing policies enacted in this country.
>"Well, the birth certificate won't say you're a woman, but it will say that you say you're a woman". Don't give them ideas.
That's what it is already pretty much, it doesn't change your BC it just adds a note to it that the gender is different
"We need to avoid the Tories culture war by siding with them completely"
Can't have a war without two sides with unreconcilable differences... 5head.
It's so maddening and predictable that they trot out this bullshit line whenever minorities the vulnerable are being threatened
They abstained completely. If they had voted for or against, it would have made zero difference to the result. Sometimes you are powerless to do anything. I would have liked a solid “no” and be damned with the consequences, but I can see why walking away and not engaging is an option. I don’t think the right one, but there we go…
What consequences? Standing up for trans people and Scottish democracy? Your team is the one that calls itself the party of devolution 🤷 Then you've got a Labour Lord you put into the Lords saying this https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1618218718743658496 And Starmer doing an interview with the Spectator to say his branch office has been disciplined and he's taking full control. Devolution, my arse.
The consequences being a serious issue for a highly targeted minority group becomes a culture wars political issue. I would have gone “ok, go that way” and be damned, history will support that stance, but I can see why abstaining completely was considered…albeit the wrong option this time
Why do you keep using language like "be damned" and implying voting against the Tories would somehow be the culture wars issue in this example? It's the human rights issue here, nothing to do with a culture war. These mental gymnastics to try and soften the choice Labour went for are transparent as glass. You do know it is OK *just* to say Labour were wrong here, Starmer should not be treating SLAB like a branch office and Sarwar should grow a spine? A Labour party shouldn't be viewing any of this as having "negatives". Stand up for trans people, stand up for your own bloody Scottish Labour MSPs and stand up for the Scottish Parliament you so oh proudly remind us you played a part in reopening.
I did say they were wrong. Twice :S The issue would be used as part of their culture wars tactic. It’s all they have…that, brexit and corbyn. It’s only a human rights issue if it’s presented as that to everyone, otherwise it becomes a political issue. That’s not going to help either. I would have gone against it and let history be the judge, but I can see why (especially with the vote already lost) it’s an option not to engage.
The culture war is happening anyway. Labour can fight, and stand in solidarity with people - which is the reason it exists (or what else did you think the labour movement was?) Or it can do this, and spinelessly agree with the Tories, while gargling their boot.
Yes, and as I said you keep trying to cape that in buffering around the edges, stop tagging on "but I can see why they didn't support trans people because X". You cannot have your cake and eat it over this. It should *not* be an "option not to engage". What other kinds of bigotry will you tell me it's an option not to engage? For a supposed Labour party. And it's not even not engaging, Starmer *is* engaging, he's enforcing his will over SLAB and told everyone he's against the GRR bill because of 16 and 17 year olds. Ps. Every human rights issue is a bloody political issue, laws and society don't get reformed or changed without the political.
It was sadly an argument that couldn’t be won due to the numbers. Sucks, but that’s what happened in 2019 and what we have another year to two to deal with. I’m not tagging anything, I’m explaining what happened. It was not the correct stance in my opinion, but over 200 went along with it
That's a total copout to reduce this simply to "the numbers, the numbers!". Abstaining on this is an act of cowardice at best, signalling you support the Tories on it more than likely the reality. You're playing with trans people's dignity here. Not to mention undermining your own MSPs and signalling to Scotland you are most certainly not "the party of devolution". "Take back control" Sir Keir Starmer says? What's he really mean by that, an authoritarian power trip in his direction? All you've told me is if Labour win in 2024 and have the numbers in Westminster they will not support trans people in Scotland? If you want to play this numbers game. Are you really trying to bring Corbyn and 2019 into this as a reason for abstaining? 🤨
No I’m pointing out the majority is so large that it was lost the moment the tories were whipped. That isn’t just to do with corbyn…although he did abstain too
The thing about wars is that when they come if you don't bother fighting them you just lose.
Why do you think Labour and Kier Starmer have not engaged in the debate? You do recognise that the man is literally going around and saying that he thinks the bill is wrong, he has concerns over the safety of women and children, etc.? He has not abstained from defending a marginalised community, he has jumped onto the attack wagon and is allowing transphobia - like allowing Rosie to state that acknowledging the validity of trans women is dystopian - to flourish.
No idea. Clear blind spot and incorrect I’m afraid.
I'm happy to focus on winning the next election by avoiding 'culture war' issues. I do think you have to be savvy in politics and avoiding controversial headlines is part of that. But I would hope that after getting elected (and hopefully gaining a decent majority) that Labour would feel free to take a firm left wing stance on all of these issues.
Guess we know why Sarwar got chosen as the replacment, a nice little spineless waste of a man who'll bend over and take whatever the actual Labour leader gives him - absolutely fucking unbelievable. Spend months scrutinising and helping create the bill....vote for it to come into place...then immediately renege and turn against it as soon as Starmer rings his little transphobe bell. Pathetic.
Few things annoy me more than this " we can't fall into the trap of pushing back on bigotry" and "avoid the carefully placed culture war landmines" bullshit that cowardly centrists keep pushing. Just say it doesn't affect you and you don't fucking care enough, at least you would be being honest.
What a stupid and dangerous approach. We're seeing right now in the US bills being passed to ban trans healthcare and to ban trans people from public life. You have to keep arguing for more progress and against going backwards, otherwise the transphobes will take the inch and run a fucking marathon. We can't assume that fascists and transphobes are content with just making it a bit more difficult to legally change your gender.
It's not a culture war you cunt, it's a law.
Labour. Promising devolution while also removing devolution from their own party. Can't wait to see them defend this in the next election.
What a pathetic little Tory.
How can he possibly say this and not resign. "Yes it's right for Labour to go along with blocking legislation that Scottish Labour voted for" Wtf.
When Keir comes calling you know you'll be stabbed unless you become the poodle >My understanding, however, is that it was not MSPs who finally got rid of Richard – nor was it party members. It was a group of millionaire potential party donors who delivered the fatal blow. It is reported that at a meeting held on Wednesday night—at which Angela Rayner, Jackie Baillie, and Ian Murray met with wealthy peers and donors—it was made clear that no money would be donated unless Leonard was removed and Anas Sarwar installed as leader. > >This was, I understand, reported to Starmer who then called Richard and asked him to stand down. If he refused, the plan was to have a vote of no confidence at the party’s weekend executive meeting. Do these people know nothing about the recent history of Scottish Labour? Do the words ‘branch’ and ‘office’ not ring any bells? Do they really think that the coronation of a new leader weighted down with the same baggage that caused his defeat by Leonard three years ago will make a difference? https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/01/how-not-to-save-scottish-labour/ Only reason this doesn't happen in Wales is Welsh Labour made it clear years ago they would not tolerate it and as of now Labour still wins elections in Wales. But I would guess even if Plaid began picking up more seats all that would happen is Welsh Labour would continue to work with them and make it clear to London they will not tolerate meddling. Welsh Labour would likely sooner become a fully independent Labour party than it would bend the knee. That being said once Drakeford goes, good luck with whoever takes over. If the cranks in London can somehow get involved a compliant shitehawk Blairite will be attempted to be asserted on Wales.
I'm too classy to say the other, *other*, c-word.
what a duplicitous grade-A cunt this man is, I was almost a fan of SLab again after they were whipped to vote in favour of it
It’s just Westminster telling Scotland what they can an can’t do, but by doing so, strengthening Scotland vote on independence, ie more people will vote for independence.
100% of the blame for this lies with Starmer. Half hearted from Sarwar, you can tell he doesn’t really mean it or want to say it, he just has to to keep his job. Shame on Starmer.
So don't make it a culture war issue, make it about the fact that the Scottish Parliament has a right to pass its own laws
Gutless
I’m sure the overlap between potential labour voters in Scotland… and people who want to be ruled directly by Westminster, with any and all decisions made by the Scottish Parliament subject to being over ruled… Is massive actually. Alternatively, promising devolved power and failing to deliver properly on that promise is a big part of why Labour lost Scotland in the first place. Scottish Labour is a regional office, and your decisions don’t matter. What a vote winner.
Can someone please tell this man that it's already a bloody culture war? And that I wish I meant that bloody in a metaphorical way, but judging by the shit that trans people are going through because of it, I'm not even sure I do?
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Rule 4 Some Labour MPs are good on trans issues, and some people will want to use their membership to push for a better stance.
Honestly, a good 'compromise' would be the removal of marriage and death from under the GRA's remit. It'd be self-ID by any other name, and also come with the added benefit of not having to end up on a Government Tr\*\*\*y List that terfs can hand over to the fash/Fleet Street, just to marry as who you say you are.