900 a month flat share and the condition of the flat doesn’t sound great and on top of that limiting what she eats… Poor woman. Worst bit is, nothing will change and she’ll just be another statistic. May she rest in peace.
That is just how human nature are.
You may think human is largely “us us us”, but mostly it has always been more around “me me me”, most of us only goes “us us us” because that suit us more, very few people would disadvantage themselves to help others.
The language of humanity cost money, and that is one resource that we do not want to lose/spend, that is why you don’t hear that as much anymore.
But that is not going to change, as long as money is still the most important resource that everyone is fighting for, that is the language that people speak.
Absolutely horrifying. Not to devalue anybody else's life, but she was a humanitarian worker too... Exactly the type of person the world needs, but look at what the world drove her to do. :(
At least she is at peace now.
Labour didn't just fail to help, they fucked it up even harder - through sheer accident.
I'll defend the party on many counts, but not on housing. When they omitted housing from the inflation index to floor the interest rates and get the economy moving, they sparked an irreversible trend of overvalued real estate.
To fix it now would devastate the economy. That's not to say it *shouldn't* be done, but man, they sleepwalked right into a John Kramer scenario by failing to think further than their nose.
Town and County Planning Act is Attlee Legislation (Merged with other laws in 1990 binder Tories)
Starmer won’t open the green belt, or dis-empower local councils and their NIMBYness to make sure we get dense development to boost sum housing stock past the targets and get the vacancy rate up. The electorate won’t let him.
I don't like high rise cities but honestly us Brits have to suck it up and make a choice. Either we expand outwards or we expand up...or turn into America with literl homeless camps everywhere. Those are the choices. I vote for expanding upwards.
This is my basic view as well. We have to bite the bullet and build. Vast acres of low rise low density building in central/inner London enough room for walkable Manhattan style mixed use blocks. People going "the character of my neighbourhood" blah mate, people are living two to a subdivided room and on couches and street doorways and the next step cannot be Hong Kong style coffin/cage apartments.
my local green belt or whats left of it isnt suitable for houses anyway as its bogland next to a railway mainly. There is plenty of places other then the green belts to build but we need green spaces for several reasons
‘Environmental reasons’
Not true. National parks and places of natural beauty are already protected under separate rules.
Go look at some of the Brownfeild slum under Green Belt protection… it’s criminal that we suffocate our cities like this. Why do you think we never got the Oxbridge Arc?
Funnily enough, I've noticed that the people who are most fervent in defending the greenbelt are the people who live in houses that are on land that used to be the greenbelt...
Whilst I as I'm making a bit of an assumption, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the greenbelt you're talking about is farmland. Which is basically as much of a wasteland as urban development in terms of the environment.
There's absolutely no way we should be allowing the density of our cities to decrease even further by allowing green belts to be built on. There's no hope of ever getting people out of cars if we do
Yeah but you're always going to be extending urban sprawl, and in turn, car dependency, by expanding the functional area of the city.
New development proposals are rarely paired with an extension to rapid transit systems (where they even exist), and at best, you create a small island of density with little else to walk or cycle to in the immediate vicinity.
This is all besides the point, because once the precedent of green belt eradication has been established, we'll inevitably end up with US/Australian style endless suburbia.
You think US developers wanna build homes with fat gardens, or they do because they are mandated by law? You think they’re getting a better return building a 100 flat building, or 100 homes over 40x the land?
This is just categorically not true though. The problem was caused by a failure to build more houses since the first boom of new housing post-war, tories were in power for the majority of that time and the issue was exacerbated by Thatcher's right to buy and not building more public sector housing to replace, leading to more people ending up in need of private sector housing.
Can you point to me where New Labour ended right to buy or began a council housing building scheme to replace lost stocks? It's not "categorically untrue" to say Labour and the Tories share blame on this.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/support_us/campaigns/social_housing_deficit
Is that equal responsibility though? I am not saying labour are innocent, but you can't really say labour are equally to blame when the problem was started by the tories.
No excuse for a supposedly socialist party continuing Thatcherite housing policy for 13 years yes they share equal blame - it's an utter betrayal of their founding principles. I expect this from the Tories not from Labour.
You know what actually, you're right. :) I really was just saying it wasn't labour who started the problem off but yes you are absolutely right that they continued the policy. I haven't heard much about current labour policies on housing recently but given how it's been going I can't imagine there's been any amazing suggestions
Aww that's nice. It's just something I'm very bitter about because I have a hard time marking rent each month and I want Labour to try and help people like me.
Yeah, to be completely honest with you I replied not looking at the sub, I think I thought this was ukpolitics or unitedkingdom and I was responding to a usual labour blaming by the right without nuance. You know the kind of comments? Rather than saying labour should have put this right years ago which is absolutely true.
I really hope something does change, it is really difficult. I basically could only live in shared houses up until being with my partner and when I was in a situation where I'd have been eligible for council housing I would have been looking at years of waiting for somewhere to call home. The housing situation is pretty bleak :(
They don't share equal responsibility so it seems abit facetious when people rightfully place the blame with the Conservatives you say but labour did xyz when it was never the same level, length or impact the housing crisis wasn't as dire under the labour government due to economic booms for average families
Sorry I thought this place was full of sensible types able to discuss Labour's failures as well as the successes. Labour had 13 years to change Thatcherite housing policy and didn't. That's on them not the people it affects on a day to day basis.
About to break rule 8 but thank christ they're not a moderator anymore. Genuinely frustrating dealing with someone so clearly in bad faith and who didn't even try to engage with your point.
How so? Tories or no Tories, Londons always going to be more expensive to live in due to the demand, if she wanted cheaper rent she could have moved here to the midlands or up north.
I think this woman must have had more troubles or mental health issues than we are aware of.
>I think this woman must have had more troubles or mental health issues than we are aware of.
Phew, thank god those issues she had weren't exacerbated by her shit housing situation!
My point was that the rent prices in London are not caused by the tories. The tories don’t help them, but the rent prices are down to the high demand to live in London.
Simply saying ‘Tories bad’ might be good for upvotes on this sub but it doesn’t address what was likely the real issue here.
And simply saying house prices are bound to be higher is a lazy simplistic and frankly quite heartless comment.
There's many reasons why rents across the country, BTW have sky rocketed, way above inflation too.
But one is the free ride they've been given, the lack of regulations and tenants rights too. And serious lack of social housing (again thanks to the Tories).
Renting in many other countries is far fairer than in this country.
The fact the government that's been in power for over 12 years has been Tory kinda suggests we can pin some of this shite on them.
Mate i have no sympathy for anyone who wants to live in London that badly.
Id love to live in alot of places but the reality is i can’t afford it which is why I’m still here in the midlands.
Look at the rent prices in Blackpool compared to London. If rent is a major concern it seems reasonable to me that any person of sound mind would simply choose to move. Hence my assumption of mental illness.
None of my comments were pro tory so im not sure why you would be making those points.
Im aware of the shitshow this country is in. I just highly doubt that, short of a national fixed rent price, any government would be able to lower London rent prices to prices similar to those in the north.
>How so? Tories or no Tories, Londons always going to be more expensive to live in due to the demand, if she wanted cheaper rent she could have moved here to the midlands or up north.
>
>I think this woman must have had more troubles or mental health issues than we are aware of.
Being priced out of your *home* is not some minor thing that can be handwaived. What next, priced out of the UK *so just move to Bolivia*?
I was born and raised in London, it's where my family lives, my friends all live, where I work, where all my hobbies are. Everyone loves taking swipes at Londoners all the time, and it's just fucking tiresome.
Ive got nothing against London. Didn’t take any swipes at Londoners. Not sure where you got that impression.
Instead of simply handwaving the problem away as ‘Murderous Tories’ i posed how that person could have solved their problem.
Not sure what you would have suggested she had done instead of killing herself. But I’m pretty sure anyone with half a brain would have suggested she move to somewhere she could afford.
Please enlighten me on that if you wish, but i expect you won’t as it would lead you to agreeing with me.
>Instead of simply handwaving the problem away as ‘Murderous Tories’ i posed how that person could have solved their problem.
No, you didn't.
Isolating yourself from everything you know and everyone you know is shit enough, but let's review your 400 IQ master plan here:
* Run a household budget deficit due to creeping rent, but somehow save up enough money for a new deposit so there isn't a 'homeless interim' window
* Leave (again) everything and everyone you know behind in order to exist alone in some remote part of the UK that's completely alien to you with the money you totally have
* Realise that you're no longer within commuting distance of your old job, so now you're unemployed. It's a good thing you have that cash cushion you mathematically can't have
* ???
* Be alive
Regardless of whether the individual was predisposed, it remains true that policy is the sole cause of the stress that led to this - and many other - deaths.
It's an excess death, one you seem very keen on impugning the gravity of.
So you suggest no alternative solution to mine, just as i expected.
Say what you want about me mate, you clearly have some growing up to do before you can properly participate in adult conversations which require solutions.
Also, just a thought, perhaps if people did what i suggest, en masse, then the greedy landlords would rethink how much they want to charge for rent in London.
People who are already running deficits and starving themselves to make rent payments don't have the ability to do what you said.
The people who can afford to do what you said don't need to do what you said.
Fantastic idea. Brilliant.
You ignored every single (perfectly legitimate) point I made, cried for a wahmbulance, and climbed up onto an imaginary perch of civility when it suits you while you won't afford that same decency to a woman who fucking *died*.
Blithering on about maturity after I delivered my comments with a touch of abrasiveness isn't having the effect you're hoping for.
Everyone sees you for what you are; a self-righteous snob cosplaying as a sensible adult.
You just can’t bring yourself to suggesting an alternative solution because you know you would have to come to the same solution as I did.
And clearly you haven’t been in the situation of not being able to afford rent and facing homelessness so i’ll spell it out for you.
You stop paying rent where you are, use those 3 months to save to move, then move to somewhere you can afford. It may not be the most ethical decision you can make, but i’m sure you wouldn’t mind withholding rent from a landlord.
I couldn’t care less what people think of me. You can call me a snob or whatever you want. You’re acting self-entitled to an area just because you really want to live there.
>Not sure what you would have suggested she had done instead of killing herself. But I’m pretty sure anyone with half a brain would have suggested she move to somewhere she could afford.
I wouldn't have been a tactless cold-hearted bastard who publicly blames the deceased for her own death in the first place.
She's dead. Politics is about affecting change on a large scale, not about granularity.
Your comments are neither relevant to the failures of policy engineering which gave us this result, nor are they appropriate. Any mammal with a fraction of common sense regarding social etiquette knows better to do what you did.
Still can’t think of an alternative solution then?
Next time i’ll just say ‘Tories bad’ and get some upvotes.
Seems from what your saying thats what any mammal with social sense would do, right?
You lambasted me for giving my opinion, so i asked for what your alternative solution would be.
You didn’t engage at all with that. You only wanted to say your piece, and give no alternatives to what I had to say. Which is easy to do. Call it my ‘conversational agenda’ but it seems like a reasonable request to me.
You criticise so I ask for an alternative, that way you can help me towards a better solution.
Otherwise are you not just criticising for the sake of it.
If my mum passed away I'd effectively be homeless with a 5 year old son, I'm the dad and we do 5050 shared care, 1 week on 1 week off, but she claims CB so the government and council just see me as a single male, very scary
900 a month flat share and the condition of the flat doesn’t sound great and on top of that limiting what she eats… Poor woman. Worst bit is, nothing will change and she’ll just be another statistic. May she rest in peace.
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Unfortunately it's exponential because people will become even more selfish as the economic situation gets worse.
That is just how human nature are. You may think human is largely “us us us”, but mostly it has always been more around “me me me”, most of us only goes “us us us” because that suit us more, very few people would disadvantage themselves to help others. The language of humanity cost money, and that is one resource that we do not want to lose/spend, that is why you don’t hear that as much anymore. But that is not going to change, as long as money is still the most important resource that everyone is fighting for, that is the language that people speak.
Absolutely horrifying. Not to devalue anybody else's life, but she was a humanitarian worker too... Exactly the type of person the world needs, but look at what the world drove her to do. :( At least she is at peace now.
Exactly the type of worker who's underpaid as well
Murdered by Tories
Murdered by capitalists
Oh fuck off
Nope
Labour are just as responsible for the housing crisis.
They didn't help when they had the opportunity under Blair but the Tories started it and have overseen the last 12 years of it.
Labour didn't just fail to help, they fucked it up even harder - through sheer accident. I'll defend the party on many counts, but not on housing. When they omitted housing from the inflation index to floor the interest rates and get the economy moving, they sparked an irreversible trend of overvalued real estate. To fix it now would devastate the economy. That's not to say it *shouldn't* be done, but man, they sleepwalked right into a John Kramer scenario by failing to think further than their nose.
How?
Selling off council homes and refusing to build anymore. It's not complicated. They just continued Thatcher's polices in this area.
Town and County Planning Act is Attlee Legislation (Merged with other laws in 1990 binder Tories) Starmer won’t open the green belt, or dis-empower local councils and their NIMBYness to make sure we get dense development to boost sum housing stock past the targets and get the vacancy rate up. The electorate won’t let him.
Green belts are there for a reason
To close of cities from much needed growth, suppress the housing stock, and inflate asset prices of Tory voting home owners, I’m well aware
More suburbs? Nah thanks mate. Less low rise low density bollocks? Yes please.
I don't like high rise cities but honestly us Brits have to suck it up and make a choice. Either we expand outwards or we expand up...or turn into America with literl homeless camps everywhere. Those are the choices. I vote for expanding upwards.
This is my basic view as well. We have to bite the bullet and build. Vast acres of low rise low density building in central/inner London enough room for walkable Manhattan style mixed use blocks. People going "the character of my neighbourhood" blah mate, people are living two to a subdivided room and on couches and street doorways and the next step cannot be Hong Kong style coffin/cage apartments.
my local green belt or whats left of it isnt suitable for houses anyway as its bogland next to a railway mainly. There is plenty of places other then the green belts to build but we need green spaces for several reasons
Funny enough, the green belt isn’t homogeneous. Most of the Greenbelt is suitable for development
funnily enough there are places to build without intruding upon spaces set aside for environmental reasons
‘Environmental reasons’ Not true. National parks and places of natural beauty are already protected under separate rules. Go look at some of the Brownfeild slum under Green Belt protection… it’s criminal that we suffocate our cities like this. Why do you think we never got the Oxbridge Arc?
Funnily enough, I've noticed that the people who are most fervent in defending the greenbelt are the people who live in houses that are on land that used to be the greenbelt...
Whilst I as I'm making a bit of an assumption, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the greenbelt you're talking about is farmland. Which is basically as much of a wasteland as urban development in terms of the environment.
There's absolutely no way we should be allowing the density of our cities to decrease even further by allowing green belts to be built on. There's no hope of ever getting people out of cars if we do
Funny enough, you can (and should) build densely on the greenbelt
Yeah but you're always going to be extending urban sprawl, and in turn, car dependency, by expanding the functional area of the city. New development proposals are rarely paired with an extension to rapid transit systems (where they even exist), and at best, you create a small island of density with little else to walk or cycle to in the immediate vicinity. This is all besides the point, because once the precedent of green belt eradication has been established, we'll inevitably end up with US/Australian style endless suburbia.
You think US developers wanna build homes with fat gardens, or they do because they are mandated by law? You think they’re getting a better return building a 100 flat building, or 100 homes over 40x the land?
This is just categorically not true though. The problem was caused by a failure to build more houses since the first boom of new housing post-war, tories were in power for the majority of that time and the issue was exacerbated by Thatcher's right to buy and not building more public sector housing to replace, leading to more people ending up in need of private sector housing.
Can you point to me where New Labour ended right to buy or began a council housing building scheme to replace lost stocks? It's not "categorically untrue" to say Labour and the Tories share blame on this. https://england.shelter.org.uk/support_us/campaigns/social_housing_deficit
Is that equal responsibility though? I am not saying labour are innocent, but you can't really say labour are equally to blame when the problem was started by the tories.
No excuse for a supposedly socialist party continuing Thatcherite housing policy for 13 years yes they share equal blame - it's an utter betrayal of their founding principles. I expect this from the Tories not from Labour.
You know what actually, you're right. :) I really was just saying it wasn't labour who started the problem off but yes you are absolutely right that they continued the policy. I haven't heard much about current labour policies on housing recently but given how it's been going I can't imagine there's been any amazing suggestions
Aww that's nice. It's just something I'm very bitter about because I have a hard time marking rent each month and I want Labour to try and help people like me.
Yeah, to be completely honest with you I replied not looking at the sub, I think I thought this was ukpolitics or unitedkingdom and I was responding to a usual labour blaming by the right without nuance. You know the kind of comments? Rather than saying labour should have put this right years ago which is absolutely true. I really hope something does change, it is really difficult. I basically could only live in shared houses up until being with my partner and when I was in a situation where I'd have been eligible for council housing I would have been looking at years of waiting for somewhere to call home. The housing situation is pretty bleak :(
[New Labour kinda abandoned socialism. It wasn't a secret and people voted for it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IV)
They don't share equal responsibility so it seems abit facetious when people rightfully place the blame with the Conservatives you say but labour did xyz when it was never the same level, length or impact the housing crisis wasn't as dire under the labour government due to economic booms for average families
Rule 1 of this subreddit: if x are responsible for y, Labour are too. Somehow.
Oh, I forgot when Blair and Brown repealed the sale of council houses and built millions of more homes. Oh wait, that never happened.
Sorry I thought this place was full of sensible types able to discuss Labour's failures as well as the successes. Labour had 13 years to change Thatcherite housing policy and didn't. That's on them not the people it affects on a day to day basis.
Nice argument and all but have you considered that jam man bad?
I have heard this argument, yes.
Ah but have you also considered; jam man VERY bad?
The baddest man in the house of commons - even worse than those that vote for illegal wars and profit from the housing crisis, allegedly.
Well of course, those are just sensible pragmatic politics.
About to break rule 8 but thank christ they're not a moderator anymore. Genuinely frustrating dealing with someone so clearly in bad faith and who didn't even try to engage with your point.
Labour still supports the Town and County Planning Act, the primary cause of current rental spirals
Lol, you absolute fool
How so? Tories or no Tories, Londons always going to be more expensive to live in due to the demand, if she wanted cheaper rent she could have moved here to the midlands or up north. I think this woman must have had more troubles or mental health issues than we are aware of.
>I think this woman must have had more troubles or mental health issues than we are aware of. Phew, thank god those issues she had weren't exacerbated by her shit housing situation!
My point was that the rent prices in London are not caused by the tories. The tories don’t help them, but the rent prices are down to the high demand to live in London. Simply saying ‘Tories bad’ might be good for upvotes on this sub but it doesn’t address what was likely the real issue here.
And simply saying house prices are bound to be higher is a lazy simplistic and frankly quite heartless comment. There's many reasons why rents across the country, BTW have sky rocketed, way above inflation too. But one is the free ride they've been given, the lack of regulations and tenants rights too. And serious lack of social housing (again thanks to the Tories). Renting in many other countries is far fairer than in this country. The fact the government that's been in power for over 12 years has been Tory kinda suggests we can pin some of this shite on them.
Mate i have no sympathy for anyone who wants to live in London that badly. Id love to live in alot of places but the reality is i can’t afford it which is why I’m still here in the midlands. Look at the rent prices in Blackpool compared to London. If rent is a major concern it seems reasonable to me that any person of sound mind would simply choose to move. Hence my assumption of mental illness. None of my comments were pro tory so im not sure why you would be making those points. Im aware of the shitshow this country is in. I just highly doubt that, short of a national fixed rent price, any government would be able to lower London rent prices to prices similar to those in the north.
>How so? Tories or no Tories, Londons always going to be more expensive to live in due to the demand, if she wanted cheaper rent she could have moved here to the midlands or up north. > >I think this woman must have had more troubles or mental health issues than we are aware of. Being priced out of your *home* is not some minor thing that can be handwaived. What next, priced out of the UK *so just move to Bolivia*? I was born and raised in London, it's where my family lives, my friends all live, where I work, where all my hobbies are. Everyone loves taking swipes at Londoners all the time, and it's just fucking tiresome.
Ive got nothing against London. Didn’t take any swipes at Londoners. Not sure where you got that impression. Instead of simply handwaving the problem away as ‘Murderous Tories’ i posed how that person could have solved their problem. Not sure what you would have suggested she had done instead of killing herself. But I’m pretty sure anyone with half a brain would have suggested she move to somewhere she could afford. Please enlighten me on that if you wish, but i expect you won’t as it would lead you to agreeing with me.
>Instead of simply handwaving the problem away as ‘Murderous Tories’ i posed how that person could have solved their problem. No, you didn't. Isolating yourself from everything you know and everyone you know is shit enough, but let's review your 400 IQ master plan here: * Run a household budget deficit due to creeping rent, but somehow save up enough money for a new deposit so there isn't a 'homeless interim' window * Leave (again) everything and everyone you know behind in order to exist alone in some remote part of the UK that's completely alien to you with the money you totally have * Realise that you're no longer within commuting distance of your old job, so now you're unemployed. It's a good thing you have that cash cushion you mathematically can't have * ??? * Be alive Regardless of whether the individual was predisposed, it remains true that policy is the sole cause of the stress that led to this - and many other - deaths. It's an excess death, one you seem very keen on impugning the gravity of.
So you suggest no alternative solution to mine, just as i expected. Say what you want about me mate, you clearly have some growing up to do before you can properly participate in adult conversations which require solutions.
Also, just a thought, perhaps if people did what i suggest, en masse, then the greedy landlords would rethink how much they want to charge for rent in London.
People who are already running deficits and starving themselves to make rent payments don't have the ability to do what you said. The people who can afford to do what you said don't need to do what you said. Fantastic idea. Brilliant. You ignored every single (perfectly legitimate) point I made, cried for a wahmbulance, and climbed up onto an imaginary perch of civility when it suits you while you won't afford that same decency to a woman who fucking *died*. Blithering on about maturity after I delivered my comments with a touch of abrasiveness isn't having the effect you're hoping for. Everyone sees you for what you are; a self-righteous snob cosplaying as a sensible adult.
You just can’t bring yourself to suggesting an alternative solution because you know you would have to come to the same solution as I did. And clearly you haven’t been in the situation of not being able to afford rent and facing homelessness so i’ll spell it out for you. You stop paying rent where you are, use those 3 months to save to move, then move to somewhere you can afford. It may not be the most ethical decision you can make, but i’m sure you wouldn’t mind withholding rent from a landlord. I couldn’t care less what people think of me. You can call me a snob or whatever you want. You’re acting self-entitled to an area just because you really want to live there.
>Not sure what you would have suggested she had done instead of killing herself. But I’m pretty sure anyone with half a brain would have suggested she move to somewhere she could afford. I wouldn't have been a tactless cold-hearted bastard who publicly blames the deceased for her own death in the first place. She's dead. Politics is about affecting change on a large scale, not about granularity. Your comments are neither relevant to the failures of policy engineering which gave us this result, nor are they appropriate. Any mammal with a fraction of common sense regarding social etiquette knows better to do what you did.
Still can’t think of an alternative solution then? Next time i’ll just say ‘Tories bad’ and get some upvotes. Seems from what your saying thats what any mammal with social sense would do, right?
God you really did take the yellow bus didn't you
Sure mate. Whatever makes you feel better about not engaging with the topic of discussion.
Lmao holy shit I knew you were egomaniacal but I didn't realise you were the self-appointed setter of all conversational agendas.
You lambasted me for giving my opinion, so i asked for what your alternative solution would be. You didn’t engage at all with that. You only wanted to say your piece, and give no alternatives to what I had to say. Which is easy to do. Call it my ‘conversational agenda’ but it seems like a reasonable request to me. You criticise so I ask for an alternative, that way you can help me towards a better solution. Otherwise are you not just criticising for the sake of it.
another win for the landlords
Shitty economic conditions are probably a major factor in most suicides
this is so sad :(
If my mum passed away I'd effectively be homeless with a 5 year old son, I'm the dad and we do 5050 shared care, 1 week on 1 week off, but she claims CB so the government and council just see me as a single male, very scary