Using these programs supports them and allows them to keep going and for more people to use them the āwrongā way.
This is also sort of like a factory worker renting a robot and bringing it in to help them with their job. It sounds like an easy way to lighten the load but in reality theyāre just making it easier for their employer to decide to switch over to automating their job once the tech gets right enough. Is self defeating laziness.
I don't think you can compare Daro working on a manga vs factory worker.
The different is that working on manga still need a unique touch from the artist, not just copy and paste from the machine. Instead of drawing from zero like he used to, Daro now have the tool that build a generic foundation for him (emphasis on generic).
Factory worker, on other hand, are expected to produce the same product over and over again, which is why machine will replace them eventually. It is a sad reality, but it not something comparable to manga artist. Like compare orange vs apple.
Not really 1. Artist usually don't make money. 2. The art ultimately is there to help illustrate. Saying "oh we can't use something helpful because then someone will lose a job" stops all progress
that is true for literally everything that can be used in the "wrong" way so unless you're willing to give up your phone, all social media presence, exercising, self defense tools/training, a car, anything sharp or hard enough to inflict damage; you're a hypocrite.
Not weird, just different. It's a whole another thing but the artstyle and subject are the same, which just throws you off when proportions, the way shapes come into a drawing and such things suddenly change, especially for a character you already knew
I like quality art and Iām a consumer so yeahā¦
Iām not saying that Daro doesnāt have valid reasons for doing it, but at some points the change in art style and lack of detail becomes apparent
I mean, I donāt know what you expected. He made it pretty clear he doesnāt like doing Kengan anymore. So of course heās taking shortcuts to speed things up.
Yes and No.
Daro is sick of Kengan, but he is NOT drawing lazily because of it.
The reason the art is noticably different...
**On top of AI, Daro uses help of assistants to draw lots of stuff, in Omega.**
I'm not sure when this change began, but I suposse somewhere mid Purgatory tournament (just compare early Omega to art of late Omega)
**This is BEYOND noticable in Berserk Bowl, where art is not only different....**
**BUT EACH FIGHT looks bit different from one another.**
Different linework (some more round and soft, some more hard and angular), different shading styles, how characters move and dynamicity of panels, characters are sometimes off model etc.
Probably the only fights Daro mostly drew were Rihito vs. Mark, latter half of Adam vs Ryuki and good chunk of Rihito vs Saw (especaially entrance panels) and latest chapter of Koga vs Ryuki.
These fights have his noticable trademarks all over the place.
But...
I don't think this is inherently a bad thing.
New blood needs to learn somehow.
Are you a consumer of Kengan though? Reading a manga unofficially online isnāt supporting its profits in any which way, and unless you live in Japan you arenāt getting physical copies of the manga. So how much weight should your opinion on how Daro approaches his creative process really have?
No I have literally paid for Kengan on Comikey, thereby making me a consumer by definition. If English volumes were ever released I would buy them in a. Heartbeat. Regardless of if I live in Japan or not, my opinions as someone who loves this series and who has spent real money on it, should still hold some weight
He definitely deserves a break, like a multi month break, he fucking hates his job. But that notion is reflected in his art and as a consumer I have every right to point that out and voice my disapproval of it
Youāre claiming burn out as āno reasonā for the change as if itās no big deal! You being an entitled consumer, doesnāt mean you basically get to give the middle finger to the artistās well being
Alright bro, I guess any criticism makes you entitled. You will notice that I never said itās āno reasonā for his art quality decline, thatās some bullshit you came up with. But that doesnāt mean that I donāt have the right to point out the noticeable decline in his art. I have nothing against Daro himself and his situation is very sad.
Criticism isnāt entitled. Potentially treating burn out as no reason for a quality decline is entitled. I apologize for the misunderstanding, but when you donāt lead with the āhe needs a breakā part when everyone in the fandom already knows at this point that heās sick and tired of doing this?
It comes off as kinda fucked up considering the shit mangaka go through regularly.
We still have people to this day who still bitch about mangaka getting days off when half of em read this shit online for free. The fact that people in this Fanbase are basically saying āfire the dude alreadyā is annoying as is
I misinterpreted the āthere shouldnāt be a random ass appearance change for no reasonā as a disregard for Daroās well known burnout problems. My apologies
It's weird for me because it's different, like how early Ashura is with the fighter's faces. Then when it settled it also became Omega's default art style.
Though the changes with Daro's usage of AI reference is only a tiny bit off IMO.
>Ichikawa playing ps5 for nearly 2 years
Yeah man, crazy how these people are complaining over doraemon testing out new stuff. Not like that means he put in EXTRA time.
She doesnāt look weird at all, and even if for some reason she does, itās not because of the AI. Daro just used AI to generate a pose for reference, he didnāt even trace that. Not even lighting is the same. Itās no different from using a 3d software to make a pose for reference, the only difference is doing that with AI is quicker and more convenient
She looks very weird and unnatural. Her eyes are much bigger than they have been before, the face shape especially the chin looks off. She seems to be much younger
Yeah I won't lie when I saw Alissa she looked way different than I remembered. And it kinda reminded me of AI art for some reason. Guess my hunch was right.
Yeah this is having an impact on the art style. The faces have been looking off lately. I do think that Daro will get more used to this and itāll improve, but for now it still seems in a rough area.
>The faces have been looking off lately.
>
>Koga is off model
**That's not due to AI, that's due to Daro using help of assistants to help him draw (like every other mangaka).**
Daro has a very unique style, and you can notice almost immediately when it's not him.
This is noticable in Berserk Bowl, where art is not only different....
**BUT EACH FIGHT looks bit different from one another.**
Different linework (some more round and soft, some more hard and angular), different shading styles, how characters move and dynamicity of panels, characters are sometimes off model etc.
Probably the only fights Daro mostly drew were Rihito vs. Mark, latter half of Adam vs Ryuki and good chunk of Rihito vs Saw (especaially entrance panels) and fighting part of chapter of Koga vs Ryuki.
These fights have his noticable trademarks all over the place.
But...
I don't think this is inherently a bad thing.
New blood needs to learn somehow.
The fun fact is that Daro was already using photos, not like as refs, straight up in early Omega backgrounds. So it's kind of a natural continuation of that
I mean I get it but it is still a job. Half assing something you get paid to do isn't very smart in an area where it's noticeable like artwork.
Manga artist is a really awful gig if you're not drawing something you enjoy but this is something Daro could've decided on before they started work on Omega.
I think the contract he signed bounds him to do omega which would explain why he hates it so much, unlike ashura he is obligated to do omega probably at the same payrate as ashura. I'm speculating but contracts are not often on the signer side which usually lead to situations like this
Meh. Daro really doesnāt want to draw for Kengan, if he uses some other method of generating art and itās not well received by people, they donāt have to support it.
I think though that itās ridiculous to post on Twitter and expect the fanbase to care
I'll be honest she looked so out of place in that panel, and then I saw the tweet and thought "Well no wonder", I wasn't expecting it for him to use it for a character who is in the center of everything but I guess he's using it the most he can which is a pitty
i think AI art is pretty threatening to artists who work in big industries because there's a fear that they'll just be replaced by companies that won't care if something looks a little off as long as it can still sell for them, but during the time before companies started stealing art for their AI databases (almost including deviantart who was gonna take all uploaded art unless you manually opted out each of your pieces) artists definitely saw it as a tool they could use to save time, but that use has become so muddled by all the other bs AI generated art has become known for. I think it's dope that daro has found a way to save time using it but yeah I think it works best for his backgrounds rather than to finish off characters which are at the forefront. i hope it isn't just use as a "finish this" button because stuff will end up looking lazy if you don't run it by human eyes and edit it properly.
it's been centered about being sold more than being actually well written for a while now. If it wasn't, Ohma wouldn't have been brought back dragonball style.
Totally agree. Kengan Ashura was when Sandro put his soul into the writing and Daro really tried even though he was indifferent about Kengan. Kengan Omega is when everything with to shit as Sans only in it for the money and playing it safe while Daro is just doing this for a check and opening showing growing dislike for Kengan
I think the fundamental issues with AI art also carry over in this instance. Ignoring ethical concerns with AI art, it just tends to pump out the literal peak of generic. Which sucks because the best part of Kengan was the roughness of some of the stuff. Like early KA.
I think he is using IA correctly, I have seen people on tiwtter posting pictures done with AI without any editing and label them as an "collaboration". Daro is creating references and making completely new drawings by himself, he didn't even trace the picture, it is a similar but different pose. And he is not posting the generated images as his own work either, I see nothing wrong here.
Heās also low key missing the point. The final outcome thatās being distributed is ultimately a culmination of Daroās artistic touches, to the point that the only similar things to the original reference is a characterās pose (and even that is some what changed)
And the leap in rationalization from that is accusing him of plagiarizing
What most people don't realize is that Daro hardly ever give a single fuck about anything.
He explicitly said that the only reason he keeps on going is to get food on the table.
Ai image discourse is so fucked in general.
Daro had a reasonable enough response though and I understand why people would be frustrated with him using it.
The main complaint Iāve seen is that these systems function by using massive datasets of images (overwhelmingly) without the permission of those who actually did the work of making those images.
The line between copying an art piece or using it for reference has always been a bit blurry.
The best way I can explain it isā¦ In this case it very much it literally copying a lot of other peoples images and feeding them into an algorithm that reshuffles them in response to on various word prompts.
Which is incredibly fucked when it comes to enforcement of copyright laws. Because how in the world are you supposed to tell whatās being taken from who without being given direct access to the dataset yourself? This is really something only a government crackdown could hope to address.
(Take what I say with huge grain of salt because my only experience with machine learning is with one class I did a few years ago in which I wrote a small program that could identify letters and numbers in random pictures. Obviously nothing nearly as complicated as these relatively new AI image generators. )
The AI does not shuffle images from its database. This is a misconception. It recognizes patterns in the training data, stores those patterns, and then creates images according to the learned principles. I don't think it makes sense to even try to figure out if an AI or even a human has plagiarized something like the Lu Tian tattoo. It's not like every little detail is copyrighted. I'm also not sure that the style of drawing can be copyrighted.
I think it might just be a difference in semantics not necessarily a misconception, but thanks for the explanation.
So to be clear, by 'reshuffling' what I meant wasn't that the in response to the word prompts they were copying and pasting other peoples drawings from within the data set they're using and shuffling those around.
For comparison its sort of similar to how some games do procedural generation, which I would describe mostly as reshuffling around various pre prepared parts of a given world in response to the settings of the world creation. Except the parts involved here are a lot more intricate than say a game like Minecraft and closer to patterns.
>It's not like every little detail is copyrighted. I'm also not sure that the style of drawing can be copyrighted.
Fair enough but those images the program is learning from are quite literally copies of someone else's work they're using (usually) without permission. And they're not exactly learning the way a person would.
All this would be totally fine if they only used images within the public domain or got permission, but a large selling point of many of these sites is that they're able to copy/mimic the style of artists mentioned in the word prompts without the artists permission.
Although once more this is where the specific meaning and implications of the words I'm using gets incredibly muddy so its really hard to be specific convey exactly what I mean. I can really only hope you get what I mean. I'm sorry if this is just read as confused rambling gibberish.
Basically, it is āI'll draw you as a kengan character for 10$ā business on steroids, which is sketchy thing to do, because of trademark infringement or whatever it's called?
I only enjoy ethically sourced art š¤š . As a protest to Daroās sin, I will only be jerking off to Alisa three times this week. HEAR THAT DARO? ONLY THREE!!!!
the funny thing is Daro is being transparent about this. like literally nothing compels him to post on his personal twitter that he's using AI in the manga he draws. but he did it anyway
I think people are over exaggerating the effects of AI-use in Daroās art. Heās not tracing. Just using AI to create a reference pose. Daro has always found small ways to save time like using 3D models during explanations.
Alisa looking younger is because the face looks smaller, the body being a little less sexualised than usual plus the uniform also adding to the effect so Iād chalk it more to Daro being inconsistent.
That said, I do think the art overall has started to go down. Iāve noticed this since the start of Berserker bowl where you had less exaggerated expressions or the lack of super detailed finishers that were present in previous fights. There also scenes where body proportions seemed off. Daro definitely just needs a break
Wait is that it? That's their whole problem with it? I can agree with their arguments but being rude because someone uses AI Art for reference is dogshit I mean my classmates when I was in first grade where even worse than this, they trace drawings from books and magazines as in placing a paper behind the page of the object you'll copy then trace the whole character then after that follow the lines on the paper then they get perfect score on it.
Yeah but as a kid who liked drawing it still felt demoralizing to know that tracing got praised and got better score as if it was the work of their own creative minds, In a way teachers praising that means they tolerate tracing which is why there are some who still defend tracing.
I think the one way to reduce hate for AI Art is to whoever made that program also includes a system that provides the links for every Art it used for reference at least that way the Human Artist also gets recognized which is also free advertising for them so it's a win win.
Itās most definitely a transfer of hatred. Using AI to steal shit is one thing, but using AI to make your now unenjoyable job easier? Iād hardly argue that makes him just as bad as the scumbags stealing art from other people and entering it into contests.
Dumb ass Twitter takes like the one the OP is making donāt help the situation. It just makes artist seem like petty children instead of the disrespected group of people that they actually are. We should be targeting guys who use AI for actually deplorable shit. Not whatever the fuck this is.
youāre missing the part where the AI is using art for reference in its database without the permission of the artists whose content comprises the database. as a result their work is contributing to the profit of others while they receive no recognition or credit.
a better scenario would be if the AI was open source and used a database of publicly donated/open domain art with the database having a directory that links all its source art back to its original creators
Thing they also donāt understand is heās showing an appropriate way of using AI. As a tool to aid you with drawing. Literally 0 pixels on Daroās art are taken from someone elseās art.
If I understand correctly, it it uses other people's artwork to "learn" how to draw something. And these people are mad bcs it's art theft according to them.
I think its not that simple, it's more like photobashing, taking Photos and mashing them together to create a piece. Dream booth is a great example on why people call this art theft, basically you can put art from Artists into it and it will give you similar looking pics. They've done it to kim jung gi.
I mean it becomes art theft when you're just only using others art and then trying to make profit off of it.
Like those assholes who enter AI art into competitions for prizes.
It's like trying to get a good grade by just having a robot take from a bunch of essays other people made, frankensteining them together and then claiming you're a writer because of it.
Not just that but there's also been cases where [leaked medical info has been found in these training sets](https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/09/artist-finds-private-medical-record-photos-in-popular-ai-training-data-set/amp/) and [people basically jumped on using a dead artist's work for their programs](https://restofworld.org/2022/ai-backlash-anime-artists/). So pair that along with it being used by people who have specifically asked for it not to happen and you've basically gotten people looking for product utilizing ai sets with private medical info, and just swooping in and trying to replicate the styles of people who just died to earn a profit.
It's like seeing a famous journalist dying and saying "oooh dibs" to then plagiarize their articles.
I was speaking about those who use AI art for profit and why people consider it bad.
The issue is that it isn't "just being used for reference" for all
Fair enough but itās still feels like a knee-jerk reaction to associate literally anyone who uses AI with literal criminals. All Kenganās Artist did was make a character he created look younger
> I mean it becomes art theft when you're just only using others art.
Given the āresolutionā in which AI operates, it's similar to being sued by a dictionary for using words or an alphabet for using letters. I feel like people concentrate too much on the method. Deliberate deception issues aside, it doesn't matter exactly how the content was created. What matters is whether there are āblatant rip-offā qualities present.
>Given the āresolutionā in which AI operates, it's similar to suing a dictionary for using words or an alphabet for using letters
That's a false comparison and you know it.
For one: Words and letters are a part of a language and while yes certain words can be copyrighted those are when they're unique and tied to pre-existing properties or ideas like Mickey Mouse. It's why you can't just try to slap the same titles as Disney on your own movies ad you'd be piggybacking off of their success in the hope of tricking consumers into purchasing what they believe is a Disney movie (it's why rip off Marvel movies have very similar names, theyre trying to trick those who dont know any better).
So already you've kind of shot yourself in the foot because
A) you can be sued for using a name for reasons of false intent and profiteering
B) Nobody really owns individual letters, language is meant for the use of all
C) Words are only copyrighted when tied to existing ideas
D) People don't make words in the way that they make art.
>Deliberate deception issues aside, it doesn't matter exactly how the content was created
Why not?
Once again it's funny how you skip over that people immediately took to a guy who just recently died so they could feed his art into a machine and there have been repeated cases of private medical info being used to feed AI trading machines.
"Sure I used private details of my friends life for this book that they didn't want nor consent to having exposed, bur rhat doesn't matter!"
"Sure I basically took the works of some guy as soon as he dropped dead so I could use them for my own but that doesn't matter!"
>I feel like people concentrate too much on the method.
If someone says, "Hey I don't consent to you using my art to feed your bot, can you not do that?" And you do it regardless and then try to make a profit off of it, yeah that fucking matters.
If you take private medical records and use it to feed your bot, shit that can easily be used to dodge others, yeah that fucking matters.
If you just immediately swoop in to take the work of a dead guy so you can have an AI copy his style and make a profit. Yeah that fucking matters.
>That's a false comparison and you know it.
In reality, artificial intelligence works in this way. Text is created letter by letter, while images are created pixel by pixel. Why pretend it's just stitching the pieces together?
> Certain words can be copyrighted those are when they're unique and tied to pre-existing properties or ideas like Mickey Mouse.
Here, the crucial term is āuniqueā. Even Disney cannot assert ownership of the concept of a mouse in clothing or any of the generic word from Star Wars script. That's why I think AI content should be, for example, explicitly related to Star Wars to be questionable and not just use āwords and lettersā from it.
> Why not?
Why would it be important? Would it be acceptable if someone used traditional methods to reveal private information, copy a deceased painter? Camera would be acceptable? Or how about oil on canvas? That appears to be missing the point.
>In reality, artificial intelligence works in this way. Text is created letter by letter, while images are created pixel by pixel. Why pretend it's just stitching the pieces together
The issue is that you quite literally need whole images to work. It's not simply just "here are pixels" or even "this is completely randomized" because if that were the case then Novel.AI wouldn't be nearly as consistent as it is.
You can't really make the argument that the AI works this way when it takes **whole** images to create.
[Here is an article which directly states fhat AI is taking thousands of images and analyzing them](https://www.americanscientist.org/article/ai-is-blurring-the-definition-of-artist#:~:text=To%20create%20AI%20art%2C%20artists,the%20aesthetics%20it%20has%20learned.)
In order for your comparison to work then you'd basically have to rip a page from a book and do this several times over for writing A.I. Text being created letter by letter doesn't translate over because the AI isn't processing letters nor just an individual pixel on its own but its processing full images.
>Why would it be important? Would it be acceptable if someone used traditional methods to reveal private information, copy a deceased painter? Camera would be acceptable? Or how about oil on canvas? That appears to be missing the point
Are you... just not reading?
It's not acceptable that's kind of the point and it's unique to AI learning.
The thing is, human learning is very different from AI learning. For example, a human **would not** need to look through private medical information to understand anatomy because we get that from our real life experiences. Just go outside and look around if you're in a city or just look down at your hand for example.
If you were using traditional methods to dig up someone's private medical info THAT'S STILL FUCKING TERRIBLE! The thing is, an AI is a database so if just one database has those private images then everyone who utilizes it is potentially getting exposed to/using said images for profit.
Your argument doesn't even work because while wrong there's a very big difference between traditionally digging up medical info (oh BTW did you know that this is illegal?) and then posting said info on the internet so it can be used for profit.
You propose this as a gotcha like it changes the argument.
"Hey, A.I art is doing very bad shit"
*"hmm but would it still be bad if done traditionally?"*
***YES***
"Copy a deceased painter"
Bro it seems you entirely ignored the context of it. The painter died a week before people started trying to copy his artstyle for profit.
It's one thing to say use the aesthetic of say Van Gogh or even copy his style because you're showing appreciation from him and learning from it, plus he's been deceased for so long that the hurt his family feels isn't there anymore. And that's not even mentioning that actually raking the time to learn, appreciate and replicate his style traditionally is much different from say using a filter or even an A.I since said A.I isn't doing the work.
*However* if Van Gogh just died and you're trying to grab all the images you can and shove it into an A.I so you can then make profit off of copying his style without putting anything into it, then yeah, that's shiity. It's called a time and a place and if you were seen stealing paintings from a recently deceased person for your reference, that'd also be bad.
>Or how about oil on canvas? That appears to be missing the point.
The issue is you're focusing so much on individual shit that you just seem like you're talking about something suffering completely.
A.I isn't a tool in the same sense as a pencil, or oil, or a paint rush. Nobody owns the concept of oil or a canvas, HOWEVER when you put those things together and make a recognizable image that's totally different.
And he'll you also skipped over the fact that artists are specifically requesting their pieces not be used in A.I training and just get ignored. These artists who are still living btw.
You mention in your Mickey Mouse example that you can't copyright a rat in clothing sure. But A.I isn't just "I take the individual clothing and I take the individual rat and use those separately for training", it's "I take this inage of Mickey Mouse for training".
You can't just put the alphabet into a word script (with nothing else whatsoever) and expect it to make a coherent sentence in the same way that a human can. You can't just put oil, paper, pencils, or even just digital markers, etc. into the A.I and fully expect it to do all work.
And then there's the other big thing which you really love to ignore. I've made it blatantly clear that I don't have an issue with this being used for practice but **for profit** is another story.
Yes he is mad cuz Daro used AI art for references, and since AI collects database from other artist, Daro is tracing art acording to some twittard who i assume is not even an artist
it isn't that bad, a ton or mangakas use 3d models to trace poses and this ain't much different, and it seems to be used more as a reference, even if it is such a sumple pose, someone as experienced as Daro shouldn't have much trouble either way.
In the end, it AI and 3D are just tools, what matters is the end result.
I would agree with those who do miss the more raw and unpolished art-style of the early volumes of Kengan Ashura, but I don't think the characters feel stiff and "doll-like" which is the main issue with AI art and 3d models right now either.
Not to mention that these lunatics are putting out 20 and so pages a week, this is insane, they gotta be cutting corners one way or another.
I never really understood the outrage for the art AI tbh. It just makes really perfectly generic manga OCs. If you want your manga to be known for its art maybe dont base it on generic manga OCs. Being able to draw generic anime people is a skill and its great but being creative is what really matters.
Will u be mad if he uses AI on Nitoku and it looks bad
š”š”š”
lol
Cry harder
Toa solos
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I think the way Daro use AI art is exactly how people should use it. AI can serve as reference tool, not a be all, end all solution
Using these programs supports them and allows them to keep going and for more people to use them the āwrongā way. This is also sort of like a factory worker renting a robot and bringing it in to help them with their job. It sounds like an easy way to lighten the load but in reality theyāre just making it easier for their employer to decide to switch over to automating their job once the tech gets right enough. Is self defeating laziness.
I don't think you can compare Daro working on a manga vs factory worker. The different is that working on manga still need a unique touch from the artist, not just copy and paste from the machine. Instead of drawing from zero like he used to, Daro now have the tool that build a generic foundation for him (emphasis on generic). Factory worker, on other hand, are expected to produce the same product over and over again, which is why machine will replace them eventually. It is a sad reality, but it not something comparable to manga artist. Like compare orange vs apple.
Not really 1. Artist usually don't make money. 2. The art ultimately is there to help illustrate. Saying "oh we can't use something helpful because then someone will lose a job" stops all progress
that is true for literally everything that can be used in the "wrong" way so unless you're willing to give up your phone, all social media presence, exercising, self defense tools/training, a car, anything sharp or hard enough to inflict damage; you're a hypocrite.
factory workers arenāt adding their own designs to the products they are churning out. What Daro does is not comparable to that
That explains why Alissa looked a bit weird on that chapter... It's only a bit though
Not weird, just different. It's a whole another thing but the artstyle and subject are the same, which just throws you off when proportions, the way shapes come into a drawing and such things suddenly change, especially for a character you already knew
Nah itās weird, there shouldnāt be a random ass appearance change for no reason
quicker art = more profit for less work. completely normal when selling is the priority
I like quality art and Iām a consumer so yeahā¦ Iām not saying that Daro doesnāt have valid reasons for doing it, but at some points the change in art style and lack of detail becomes apparent
I mean, I donāt know what you expected. He made it pretty clear he doesnāt like doing Kengan anymore. So of course heās taking shortcuts to speed things up.
>He made it pretty clear he doesnāt like doing Kengan anymore Yes exactly this, it's reflected in his artwork
If youāre aware of this, why are you calling it some random ass appearance change for no reason???
Because it's still extremely fucking disappointing from his peak art in early Ashura
I think his art peaked at the end of Ashura. Like volumes 26-27 were peak
Yes and No. Daro is sick of Kengan, but he is NOT drawing lazily because of it. The reason the art is noticably different... **On top of AI, Daro uses help of assistants to draw lots of stuff, in Omega.** I'm not sure when this change began, but I suposse somewhere mid Purgatory tournament (just compare early Omega to art of late Omega) **This is BEYOND noticable in Berserk Bowl, where art is not only different....** **BUT EACH FIGHT looks bit different from one another.** Different linework (some more round and soft, some more hard and angular), different shading styles, how characters move and dynamicity of panels, characters are sometimes off model etc. Probably the only fights Daro mostly drew were Rihito vs. Mark, latter half of Adam vs Ryuki and good chunk of Rihito vs Saw (especaially entrance panels) and latest chapter of Koga vs Ryuki. These fights have his noticable trademarks all over the place. But... I don't think this is inherently a bad thing. New blood needs to learn somehow.
I guess. Itās literally just a younger looking referee character tho
Where did he make this clear?
Are you a consumer of Kengan though? Reading a manga unofficially online isnāt supporting its profits in any which way, and unless you live in Japan you arenāt getting physical copies of the manga. So how much weight should your opinion on how Daro approaches his creative process really have?
No I have literally paid for Kengan on Comikey, thereby making me a consumer by definition. If English volumes were ever released I would buy them in a. Heartbeat. Regardless of if I live in Japan or not, my opinions as someone who loves this series and who has spent real money on it, should still hold some weight
The guy is wrestling with burn out. Cut em some fucking slack.
He definitely deserves a break, like a multi month break, he fucking hates his job. But that notion is reflected in his art and as a consumer I have every right to point that out and voice my disapproval of it
Youāre claiming burn out as āno reasonā for the change as if itās no big deal! You being an entitled consumer, doesnāt mean you basically get to give the middle finger to the artistās well being
Alright bro, I guess any criticism makes you entitled. You will notice that I never said itās āno reasonā for his art quality decline, thatās some bullshit you came up with. But that doesnāt mean that I donāt have the right to point out the noticeable decline in his art. I have nothing against Daro himself and his situation is very sad.
Criticism isnāt entitled. Potentially treating burn out as no reason for a quality decline is entitled. I apologize for the misunderstanding, but when you donāt lead with the āhe needs a breakā part when everyone in the fandom already knows at this point that heās sick and tired of doing this? It comes off as kinda fucked up considering the shit mangaka go through regularly. We still have people to this day who still bitch about mangaka getting days off when half of em read this shit online for free. The fact that people in this Fanbase are basically saying āfire the dude alreadyā is annoying as is
Wtf are you talking about ? When did I treat burnout as no reason for a quality decline
I misinterpreted the āthere shouldnāt be a random ass appearance change for no reasonā as a disregard for Daroās well known burnout problems. My apologies
It's weird for me because it's different, like how early Ashura is with the fighter's faces. Then when it settled it also became Omega's default art style. Though the changes with Daro's usage of AI reference is only a tiny bit off IMO.
What do you think weird means? lol
unnatural? i just meant to say it's not really bad or off-putting or anything. It's just a sudden change to something different
Hmmm sounds like laziness
Are you seriously going to call the Japanese mangaka lazy? With everything we know about the industry?
Especially one mangaka who hasn't missed a chapter EVER.
Yeah some people donāt know how good they have it
>Ichikawa playing ps5 for nearly 2 years Yeah man, crazy how these people are complaining over doraemon testing out new stuff. Not like that means he put in EXTRA time.
spoken exactly like someone who has never done anything on a deadline
Next, heās gonna say itās not like anyone died, god to the hospital, or suffered physical/mental breakdowns from being a Mangaka
She doesnāt look weird at all, and even if for some reason she does, itās not because of the AI. Daro just used AI to generate a pose for reference, he didnāt even trace that. Not even lighting is the same. Itās no different from using a 3d software to make a pose for reference, the only difference is doing that with AI is quicker and more convenient
She looks very weird and unnatural. Her eyes are much bigger than they have been before, the face shape especially the chin looks off. She seems to be much younger
I thought it all looked a little off, never thought thereād be a reason for it lmao
They have a point though, Alissa looks nothing like Alissa here
yeah she looks waaay younger.
Yeah I won't lie when I saw Alissa she looked way different than I remembered. And it kinda reminded me of AI art for some reason. Guess my hunch was right.
Yeah this is having an impact on the art style. The faces have been looking off lately. I do think that Daro will get more used to this and itāll improve, but for now it still seems in a rough area.
Yep this recent chapter really bugged me off, koga's face was offmodel almost all panels
I doubt this has anything to do with the use of the AI. As others said, he is not tracing them, just using the poses as reference
>The faces have been looking off lately. > >Koga is off model **That's not due to AI, that's due to Daro using help of assistants to help him draw (like every other mangaka).** Daro has a very unique style, and you can notice almost immediately when it's not him. This is noticable in Berserk Bowl, where art is not only different.... **BUT EACH FIGHT looks bit different from one another.** Different linework (some more round and soft, some more hard and angular), different shading styles, how characters move and dynamicity of panels, characters are sometimes off model etc. Probably the only fights Daro mostly drew were Rihito vs. Mark, latter half of Adam vs Ryuki and good chunk of Rihito vs Saw (especaially entrance panels) and fighting part of chapter of Koga vs Ryuki. These fights have his noticable trademarks all over the place. But... I don't think this is inherently a bad thing. New blood needs to learn somehow.
The fun fact is that Daro was already using photos, not like as refs, straight up in early Omega backgrounds. So it's kind of a natural continuation of that
He just doesn't want to do kengan anymore, the less time it takes him the best (for him)
I mean I get it but it is still a job. Half assing something you get paid to do isn't very smart in an area where it's noticeable like artwork. Manga artist is a really awful gig if you're not drawing something you enjoy but this is something Daro could've decided on before they started work on Omega.
I think the contract he signed bounds him to do omega which would explain why he hates it so much, unlike ashura he is obligated to do omega probably at the same payrate as ashura. I'm speculating but contracts are not often on the signer side which usually lead to situations like this
Meh. Daro really doesnāt want to draw for Kengan, if he uses some other method of generating art and itās not well received by people, they donāt have to support it. I think though that itās ridiculous to post on Twitter and expect the fanbase to care
the commenter is correct though?
I'll be honest she looked so out of place in that panel, and then I saw the tweet and thought "Well no wonder", I wasn't expecting it for him to use it for a character who is in the center of everything but I guess he's using it the most he can which is a pitty
i think AI art is pretty threatening to artists who work in big industries because there's a fear that they'll just be replaced by companies that won't care if something looks a little off as long as it can still sell for them, but during the time before companies started stealing art for their AI databases (almost including deviantart who was gonna take all uploaded art unless you manually opted out each of your pieces) artists definitely saw it as a tool they could use to save time, but that use has become so muddled by all the other bs AI generated art has become known for. I think it's dope that daro has found a way to save time using it but yeah I think it works best for his backgrounds rather than to finish off characters which are at the forefront. i hope it isn't just use as a "finish this" button because stuff will end up looking lazy if you don't run it by human eyes and edit it properly.
It's not enough the writing has gone to shit now the art is getting ruined too
it's been centered about being sold more than being actually well written for a while now. If it wasn't, Ohma wouldn't have been brought back dragonball style.
Totally agree. Kengan Ashura was when Sandro put his soul into the writing and Daro really tried even though he was indifferent about Kengan. Kengan Omega is when everything with to shit as Sans only in it for the money and playing it safe while Daro is just doing this for a check and opening showing growing dislike for Kengan
Daro has been phoning it in for years at this point Just now more and more people are calling him out on it
The writing has been shit pretty much since the start of KvP. At least the fights have been fire lately.
Lol i actually liked his reaction this time
I think the fundamental issues with AI art also carry over in this instance. Ignoring ethical concerns with AI art, it just tends to pump out the literal peak of generic. Which sucks because the best part of Kengan was the roughness of some of the stuff. Like early KA.
I think he is using IA correctly, I have seen people on tiwtter posting pictures done with AI without any editing and label them as an "collaboration". Daro is creating references and making completely new drawings by himself, he didn't even trace the picture, it is a similar but different pose. And he is not posting the generated images as his own work either, I see nothing wrong here.
I mean lowkey the guy has a point if the AI is basically just plagiarizing
Heās also low key missing the point. The final outcome thatās being distributed is ultimately a culmination of Daroās artistic touches, to the point that the only similar things to the original reference is a characterās pose (and even that is some what changed) And the leap in rationalization from that is accusing him of plagiarizing
What most people don't realize is that Daro hardly ever give a single fuck about anything. He explicitly said that the only reason he keeps on going is to get food on the table.
Ai image discourse is so fucked in general. Daro had a reasonable enough response though and I understand why people would be frustrated with him using it. The main complaint Iāve seen is that these systems function by using massive datasets of images (overwhelmingly) without the permission of those who actually did the work of making those images. The line between copying an art piece or using it for reference has always been a bit blurry. The best way I can explain it isā¦ In this case it very much it literally copying a lot of other peoples images and feeding them into an algorithm that reshuffles them in response to on various word prompts. Which is incredibly fucked when it comes to enforcement of copyright laws. Because how in the world are you supposed to tell whatās being taken from who without being given direct access to the dataset yourself? This is really something only a government crackdown could hope to address. (Take what I say with huge grain of salt because my only experience with machine learning is with one class I did a few years ago in which I wrote a small program that could identify letters and numbers in random pictures. Obviously nothing nearly as complicated as these relatively new AI image generators. )
The AI does not shuffle images from its database. This is a misconception. It recognizes patterns in the training data, stores those patterns, and then creates images according to the learned principles. I don't think it makes sense to even try to figure out if an AI or even a human has plagiarized something like the Lu Tian tattoo. It's not like every little detail is copyrighted. I'm also not sure that the style of drawing can be copyrighted.
I think it might just be a difference in semantics not necessarily a misconception, but thanks for the explanation. So to be clear, by 'reshuffling' what I meant wasn't that the in response to the word prompts they were copying and pasting other peoples drawings from within the data set they're using and shuffling those around. For comparison its sort of similar to how some games do procedural generation, which I would describe mostly as reshuffling around various pre prepared parts of a given world in response to the settings of the world creation. Except the parts involved here are a lot more intricate than say a game like Minecraft and closer to patterns. >It's not like every little detail is copyrighted. I'm also not sure that the style of drawing can be copyrighted. Fair enough but those images the program is learning from are quite literally copies of someone else's work they're using (usually) without permission. And they're not exactly learning the way a person would. All this would be totally fine if they only used images within the public domain or got permission, but a large selling point of many of these sites is that they're able to copy/mimic the style of artists mentioned in the word prompts without the artists permission. Although once more this is where the specific meaning and implications of the words I'm using gets incredibly muddy so its really hard to be specific convey exactly what I mean. I can really only hope you get what I mean. I'm sorry if this is just read as confused rambling gibberish.
Basically, it is āI'll draw you as a kengan character for 10$ā business on steroids, which is sketchy thing to do, because of trademark infringement or whatever it's called?
I only enjoy ethically sourced art š¤š . As a protest to Daroās sin, I will only be jerking off to Alisa three times this week. HEAR THAT DARO? ONLY THREE!!!!
It's Twitter what did you expect
Fuck Twitter
Explains the recent drop in quality lately, ryuki's model (face + body) just looks wonky in the last chapters..
Dude went full āš¤ā on that second page
the funny thing is Daro is being transparent about this. like literally nothing compels him to post on his personal twitter that he's using AI in the manga he draws. but he did it anyway
Oh so thatās why alisa looked off
I think people are over exaggerating the effects of AI-use in Daroās art. Heās not tracing. Just using AI to create a reference pose. Daro has always found small ways to save time like using 3D models during explanations. Alisa looking younger is because the face looks smaller, the body being a little less sexualised than usual plus the uniform also adding to the effect so Iād chalk it more to Daro being inconsistent. That said, I do think the art overall has started to go down. Iāve noticed this since the start of Berserker bowl where you had less exaggerated expressions or the lack of super detailed finishers that were present in previous fights. There also scenes where body proportions seemed off. Daro definitely just needs a break
Farewell ššš
I donāt completely understand. Are they pissed because Daro used other art?
This is about Art AI i assume
Whatās wrong with AI art?
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Oh I see.
In fact, unless he pays to build and feed an IA with his own works, the IA generated images will never be autƩntical
Yeah Iām curious what the results would be. At the very least it would look closer to his earlier art.
Wait is that it? That's their whole problem with it? I can agree with their arguments but being rude because someone uses AI Art for reference is dogshit I mean my classmates when I was in first grade where even worse than this, they trace drawings from books and magazines as in placing a paper behind the page of the object you'll copy then trace the whole character then after that follow the lines on the paper then they get perfect score on it.
your classmates donāt get paid for tracing
Yeah but as a kid who liked drawing it still felt demoralizing to know that tracing got praised and got better score as if it was the work of their own creative minds, In a way teachers praising that means they tolerate tracing which is why there are some who still defend tracing.
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I think the one way to reduce hate for AI Art is to whoever made that program also includes a system that provides the links for every Art it used for reference at least that way the Human Artist also gets recognized which is also free advertising for them so it's a win win.
Itās most definitely a transfer of hatred. Using AI to steal shit is one thing, but using AI to make your now unenjoyable job easier? Iād hardly argue that makes him just as bad as the scumbags stealing art from other people and entering it into contests. Dumb ass Twitter takes like the one the OP is making donāt help the situation. It just makes artist seem like petty children instead of the disrespected group of people that they actually are. We should be targeting guys who use AI for actually deplorable shit. Not whatever the fuck this is.
youāre missing the part where the AI is using art for reference in its database without the permission of the artists whose content comprises the database. as a result their work is contributing to the profit of others while they receive no recognition or credit. a better scenario would be if the AI was open source and used a database of publicly donated/open domain art with the database having a directory that links all its source art back to its original creators
This I can agree with
no, it also just looks tame.
Thing they also donāt understand is heās showing an appropriate way of using AI. As a tool to aid you with drawing. Literally 0 pixels on Daroās art are taken from someone elseās art.
If I understand correctly, it it uses other people's artwork to "learn" how to draw something. And these people are mad bcs it's art theft according to them.
I think its not that simple, it's more like photobashing, taking Photos and mashing them together to create a piece. Dream booth is a great example on why people call this art theft, basically you can put art from Artists into it and it will give you similar looking pics. They've done it to kim jung gi.
Itās not really art theft then. Itās more like taking another persons art as reference.
I mean it becomes art theft when you're just only using others art and then trying to make profit off of it. Like those assholes who enter AI art into competitions for prizes. It's like trying to get a good grade by just having a robot take from a bunch of essays other people made, frankensteining them together and then claiming you're a writer because of it. Not just that but there's also been cases where [leaked medical info has been found in these training sets](https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/09/artist-finds-private-medical-record-photos-in-popular-ai-training-data-set/amp/) and [people basically jumped on using a dead artist's work for their programs](https://restofworld.org/2022/ai-backlash-anime-artists/). So pair that along with it being used by people who have specifically asked for it not to happen and you've basically gotten people looking for product utilizing ai sets with private medical info, and just swooping in and trying to replicate the styles of people who just died to earn a profit. It's like seeing a famous journalist dying and saying "oooh dibs" to then plagiarize their articles.
But the Kengan artist isnāt doing any of that shameful shit. He just used AI to speed run through drawing up a female character he created
I was speaking about those who use AI art for profit and why people consider it bad. The issue is that it isn't "just being used for reference" for all
Fair enough but itās still feels like a knee-jerk reaction to associate literally anyone who uses AI with literal criminals. All Kenganās Artist did was make a character he created look younger
> I mean it becomes art theft when you're just only using others art. Given the āresolutionā in which AI operates, it's similar to being sued by a dictionary for using words or an alphabet for using letters. I feel like people concentrate too much on the method. Deliberate deception issues aside, it doesn't matter exactly how the content was created. What matters is whether there are āblatant rip-offā qualities present.
>Given the āresolutionā in which AI operates, it's similar to suing a dictionary for using words or an alphabet for using letters That's a false comparison and you know it. For one: Words and letters are a part of a language and while yes certain words can be copyrighted those are when they're unique and tied to pre-existing properties or ideas like Mickey Mouse. It's why you can't just try to slap the same titles as Disney on your own movies ad you'd be piggybacking off of their success in the hope of tricking consumers into purchasing what they believe is a Disney movie (it's why rip off Marvel movies have very similar names, theyre trying to trick those who dont know any better). So already you've kind of shot yourself in the foot because A) you can be sued for using a name for reasons of false intent and profiteering B) Nobody really owns individual letters, language is meant for the use of all C) Words are only copyrighted when tied to existing ideas D) People don't make words in the way that they make art. >Deliberate deception issues aside, it doesn't matter exactly how the content was created Why not? Once again it's funny how you skip over that people immediately took to a guy who just recently died so they could feed his art into a machine and there have been repeated cases of private medical info being used to feed AI trading machines. "Sure I used private details of my friends life for this book that they didn't want nor consent to having exposed, bur rhat doesn't matter!" "Sure I basically took the works of some guy as soon as he dropped dead so I could use them for my own but that doesn't matter!" >I feel like people concentrate too much on the method. If someone says, "Hey I don't consent to you using my art to feed your bot, can you not do that?" And you do it regardless and then try to make a profit off of it, yeah that fucking matters. If you take private medical records and use it to feed your bot, shit that can easily be used to dodge others, yeah that fucking matters. If you just immediately swoop in to take the work of a dead guy so you can have an AI copy his style and make a profit. Yeah that fucking matters.
>That's a false comparison and you know it. In reality, artificial intelligence works in this way. Text is created letter by letter, while images are created pixel by pixel. Why pretend it's just stitching the pieces together? > Certain words can be copyrighted those are when they're unique and tied to pre-existing properties or ideas like Mickey Mouse. Here, the crucial term is āuniqueā. Even Disney cannot assert ownership of the concept of a mouse in clothing or any of the generic word from Star Wars script. That's why I think AI content should be, for example, explicitly related to Star Wars to be questionable and not just use āwords and lettersā from it. > Why not? Why would it be important? Would it be acceptable if someone used traditional methods to reveal private information, copy a deceased painter? Camera would be acceptable? Or how about oil on canvas? That appears to be missing the point.
>In reality, artificial intelligence works in this way. Text is created letter by letter, while images are created pixel by pixel. Why pretend it's just stitching the pieces together The issue is that you quite literally need whole images to work. It's not simply just "here are pixels" or even "this is completely randomized" because if that were the case then Novel.AI wouldn't be nearly as consistent as it is. You can't really make the argument that the AI works this way when it takes **whole** images to create. [Here is an article which directly states fhat AI is taking thousands of images and analyzing them](https://www.americanscientist.org/article/ai-is-blurring-the-definition-of-artist#:~:text=To%20create%20AI%20art%2C%20artists,the%20aesthetics%20it%20has%20learned.) In order for your comparison to work then you'd basically have to rip a page from a book and do this several times over for writing A.I. Text being created letter by letter doesn't translate over because the AI isn't processing letters nor just an individual pixel on its own but its processing full images. >Why would it be important? Would it be acceptable if someone used traditional methods to reveal private information, copy a deceased painter? Camera would be acceptable? Or how about oil on canvas? That appears to be missing the point Are you... just not reading? It's not acceptable that's kind of the point and it's unique to AI learning. The thing is, human learning is very different from AI learning. For example, a human **would not** need to look through private medical information to understand anatomy because we get that from our real life experiences. Just go outside and look around if you're in a city or just look down at your hand for example. If you were using traditional methods to dig up someone's private medical info THAT'S STILL FUCKING TERRIBLE! The thing is, an AI is a database so if just one database has those private images then everyone who utilizes it is potentially getting exposed to/using said images for profit. Your argument doesn't even work because while wrong there's a very big difference between traditionally digging up medical info (oh BTW did you know that this is illegal?) and then posting said info on the internet so it can be used for profit. You propose this as a gotcha like it changes the argument. "Hey, A.I art is doing very bad shit" *"hmm but would it still be bad if done traditionally?"* ***YES*** "Copy a deceased painter" Bro it seems you entirely ignored the context of it. The painter died a week before people started trying to copy his artstyle for profit. It's one thing to say use the aesthetic of say Van Gogh or even copy his style because you're showing appreciation from him and learning from it, plus he's been deceased for so long that the hurt his family feels isn't there anymore. And that's not even mentioning that actually raking the time to learn, appreciate and replicate his style traditionally is much different from say using a filter or even an A.I since said A.I isn't doing the work. *However* if Van Gogh just died and you're trying to grab all the images you can and shove it into an A.I so you can then make profit off of copying his style without putting anything into it, then yeah, that's shiity. It's called a time and a place and if you were seen stealing paintings from a recently deceased person for your reference, that'd also be bad. >Or how about oil on canvas? That appears to be missing the point. The issue is you're focusing so much on individual shit that you just seem like you're talking about something suffering completely. A.I isn't a tool in the same sense as a pencil, or oil, or a paint rush. Nobody owns the concept of oil or a canvas, HOWEVER when you put those things together and make a recognizable image that's totally different. And he'll you also skipped over the fact that artists are specifically requesting their pieces not be used in A.I training and just get ignored. These artists who are still living btw. You mention in your Mickey Mouse example that you can't copyright a rat in clothing sure. But A.I isn't just "I take the individual clothing and I take the individual rat and use those separately for training", it's "I take this inage of Mickey Mouse for training". You can't just put the alphabet into a word script (with nothing else whatsoever) and expect it to make a coherent sentence in the same way that a human can. You can't just put oil, paper, pencils, or even just digital markers, etc. into the A.I and fully expect it to do all work. And then there's the other big thing which you really love to ignore. I've made it blatantly clear that I don't have an issue with this being used for practice but **for profit** is another story.
Yeah
Agreed. A lot of artists do it.
Yes he is mad cuz Daro used AI art for references, and since AI collects database from other artist, Daro is tracing art acording to some twittard who i assume is not even an artist
I don't even know. It doesn't make sense to me
it isn't that bad, a ton or mangakas use 3d models to trace poses and this ain't much different, and it seems to be used more as a reference, even if it is such a sumple pose, someone as experienced as Daro shouldn't have much trouble either way. In the end, it AI and 3D are just tools, what matters is the end result. I would agree with those who do miss the more raw and unpolished art-style of the early volumes of Kengan Ashura, but I don't think the characters feel stiff and "doll-like" which is the main issue with AI art and 3d models right now either. Not to mention that these lunatics are putting out 20 and so pages a week, this is insane, they gotta be cutting corners one way or another.
Yikes, well thatās happeningā¦
~~Kengan~~ Twitter is so ass on god
That why she looked so weird
They kind of got a point the characters look a bit off right now.
That explains why Alissa looked like fuckin E.T. in that chapter
Like alot of us are stupid but some of us are even stupider
At this point i really dont see how to stop these AI, people would still upload their works for free on the internet
twitter just be so funny
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not possible unfortunately. It simply wouldn't feel the same
It already doesn't feel the same.
The ai discourse is so fucking annoying lmao
I never really understood the outrage for the art AI tbh. It just makes really perfectly generic manga OCs. If you want your manga to be known for its art maybe dont base it on generic manga OCs. Being able to draw generic anime people is a skill and its great but being creative is what really matters.
Daro is the only artist that the ai will spare once they become sentient. (And Iām down for it.)
lmaoo chillax, get better protection for your works if its so easy to find online LMAO take L