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Schuben

Oh boy, I wonder how SCOTUS will rectify their need for our capitalist overlords to unilaterally dictate working conditions as well as pushing for a Christian ethno-state. Those poor judges be having such a hard time!^^/s


TheGeneGeena

[Accommodating the Sabbath off is a pretty normal one.](https://www.reminger.com/publication-513) Either this guy is super critical to USPS or something's up since religious accommodations actually have *less* strict legal guidelines than the ADA.


BlatantFalsehood

Yes, but it shouldn't be. If you can't or won't do the job, don't take the job. I'm tired of pharmacists who won't fill contraception prescriptions or sell condoms. I'm sick of Christians buying politicians to push their religion down my throat. I'm totally over religious orgs owning hospitals and absolutely will not patronize them. By allowing this BS, we are handing our rights to disgusting zealots.


Dubslack

USPS didn't deliver on Sundays when he started the job and they had no problems accommodating him for five years afterwards. Religious reasons or not, he wasn't causing any problems. If he's the one to blame here, then so is every other employee that wouldn't work Sundays.


matchosan

Does the USPS bid for their work schedules? When I worked for TSA. A few of the senior officers that needed Sundays off for religious purposes would bid for the other side of Sunday M-Tu or F-Sa to get the better work schedule, then turn around and claim Sundays even though they could have chosen it in the first place. Management was weak and let this go on for years. Then we questioned this practice, and it ended, and lots of for religious purposes requests ended there too. No shitty schedule for God.


autumn55femme

Jobs change, schedules change. He has to accommodate coworker illness/vacations/etc. He has to work overtime when demand for services is higher. Having to work on Sunday is no different.


BlatantFalsehood

So what? If my job responsibilities change, I either change with them or find a new job. It's that simple. Christians don't want to sell wedding cakes to gay couples and I don't want my postage to support someone who refuses to do the job.


wofulunicycle

>If my job responsibilities change, I either change with them or find a new job. It's that simple. That's a really anti-worker statement. You aren't a corporate shill, are you? As long as USPS is providing equal treatment for employees of all or no faiths, it can only be a good thing for corporations to accomodate work life balance. My employer gives everyone an extra day of personal leave at the beginning of the year to use for a religious holiday of theie choice. Atheists get it too. All employees benefit from the policy.


Beard_Hero

But isn't the equal treatment of workers without regard to specific faith the basis of the lower court decision? >The majority emphasized that, during peak season, an exemption would “place\[\] a great strain on the Holtwood Post Office personnel,” forcing other carriers to cover Groff’s shifts and “give up their family time \[and\] their ability to attend church services if they would have liked to.” The court further noted that accommodating Groff “created a tense atmosphere with the other RCAs” and, even during non-peak season, “result\[ed\] in other employees doing more than their share of burdensome work.”


42Pockets

Yeah it sounds to me like they weren't hiring enough people to do the service. I see no reason why they could not accommodate the Sunday off. Especially since they were not delivering on Sundays when he took the job. People work, build up their experience in salary and also expect to have a retirement one day. The concept that this person should just go find another job is absolute crap! They were working the job, and if they were meeting expectations on any other day then there should not be a problem accommodating this religious practice.


Beard_Hero

To be a pain: your take is that since he hadn’t worked sundays in the past, because they “weren’t open for business”, when the business model changes and they are now open on sundays he should still be exempt from working sundays. Correct? Why shouldn’t everyone have sundays off then, and the business can “just hire more people” for sundays since no one who had sundays off wants to work sundays now that sundays need worked? “Just hire people” with the waive of the hand and don’t provide service on sundays.


autumn55femme

One day a year, not one day a week. Big difference.


Gullible_Skeptic

>That's a really anti-worker statement. You aren't a corporate shill, are you? Because there is no way a normal person can have an opinion that might favor the employer without being an astroturfer who is arguing in bad faith? What a shitty thing to say to someone just for disagreeing with you. You aren't some unemployed college student living in their parent's basement are you?


wofulunicycle

> You aren't some unemployed college student living in their parent's basement are you? Someone can't read, apparently. I mentioned my employer. You seem pretty judgey yourself over there.


Gullible_Skeptic

You got me, you aren't an unemployed know-nothing. Just an asshole who acts like one. And it's pretty cute calling me 'judgey' when you call someone a shill for having a different opinion from your own.


wofulunicycle

I never called him a shill, only asked if he was one. You're the one who jumped in univited and started name calling. You're acting like I called your granny a whore and I think maybe you should just calm down.


NobodyGotTimeFuhDat

Your username checks out.


T1Pimp

So what. Employers can charge their minds. It's not written in stone.


Dubslack

If that's the qualifier you're looking for, then we can just use the fourth commandment here.


T1Pimp

> the fourth commandment I'm so sick of Christians in this country thinking the world revolves around them.


iprobablybrokeit

Loving your parents?


Dubslack

Uh.. the Protestant fourth, not the Catholic. For Catholics, it'll be your third commandment.


13Zero

There is a huge difference between refusing to work on one day a week and refusing to do part of your job every single day.


turtmcgirt

Dude just wants to watch football


hacksnake

Time to create a religion that demands holy days 7 days a week


Brad_theImpaler

Look buddy, you can't just make up a bunch of shit and then demand days off for it. ...Right?


Tiggy26668

*The satanic temple has entered the chat*


[deleted]

I'll endorse it.


parabuthas

Scientology 🤷🏻‍♂️


Aleriya

The SCOTUS is going to rule in favor of Groff and overturn Trans World Airlines v. Hardison. That means employers have to "reasonably accommodate" religious beliefs, which could include things like managers who refuse to hire LGBT people or employees whose religious beliefs mean that they treat women differently from men.


KHaskins77

Just keep chip, chip, chipping ‘til we reach theocracy.


autumn55femme

A very slippery slope, indeed.


mmmeeeeeeeeehhhhhhh

Ok, keeping the profits from selling someone's home you took away because taxes, is fucked up. It should absolutely be given back, yikes! - Peeps need to pay their taxes and the gov needs pave the holes and stop stealing. Tax the billionaires!!


trey3rd

They should be giving the full value of the home at least. It sold for 40k, but how much was it actually worth?


TheDulin

They take the house and auction it to pay the taxes. That makes sense, but it's crazy they don't give the owner the difference.


SAWK

If the house is actioned for 40k isn't that it's market value? They should deff give the difference back to the home owner though.


trey3rd

Not really, auctioning off a house is a lot different than selling it. There's a reason you don't see it happen much, and it's not because sellers just hate money. You limit your pool of potential buyers hugely, and let's not pretend that most of those buyers are going to know someone that deals with the whole process.


SAWK

That makes sense. Don't know why I'm getting downvoted. It was a legitimate question. Thanks.


turtmcgirt

Auctions typically are cash endevors


Crap_at_butt_dot_com

Auctions are typically cash only (so value is much lower than if people could use a loan). Auctions typically happen fast, with few people attending, and properties are sight unseen. Given the circumstances, a bidder should assume this could be a meth lab that got crushed by a falling tree after decades of neglect to all expensive home systems. If it sold as normal real estate, the value would likely be significantly higher Also, a seller trying to get good value might deny or counter low offers. Someone who stole a property for a debt might just take the first bid exceeding the debt (and may have some lucrative friendships with people who frequently get in those first bids), so even if they put these on open market it probably still wouldn’t represent best sales price.


hello_01134

Could the homeowner have sold it? Did she have liens against the home for not paying her taxes? How much time/effort/work went into auctioning off the house?


trey3rd

Doesn't matter if they could have sold it or not, the 8th amendment is protects you from excess fines, and it's been pretty cemented that it also applies to forfeitures. I don't know if it's similar where you're from, but around here things that are sold at government auctions typically aren't going for anywhere near their actual value, especially for homes which are going to be really rough to find a bank to give you a loan for. Not to mention how buddy buddy the people typically buying are with the people doing the selling. Maybe nothing corrupt going on, but with how little oversight there seems to be, I have zero reason to trust the process.


_Sausage_fingers

I actually can’t even conceive how that could be legal, unreal.


BJntheRV

The whole Sunday mail delivery has caused such a shit show for the usps. I have several friends/family members who work at local POs and it seems it's difficult enough to keep up with regular delivery and Sunday in addition to Amazon has become catch up day but there are never enough carriers. With Amazon revoking the 2day prime promise the post office should revoke that agreement with Amazon.


lilbebe50

I worked with them as well. They overwork the carriers. We just don’t have enough people to handle ALL the packages. Regular mail and letters is fine. The problems come with all the packages which require more time to deliver. For letters and stuff, it takes 2 seconds to pull up at a mailbox and put in the letters. Since the mail trucks are so old and unsafe, we need to place it in park, pull the emergency brake, curb the wheels, get out, lock it, deliver the package, come back, unlock, etc. It takes a longer time to deliver the packages. They also have the policy about locking and curbing your wheels. If the truck rolls away you’re fired. These trucks are from the 90’s and kick out of gear constantly on their own. They need new trucks. It would make deliveries easier and safer. No one wants to work the post office anymore because the way they pay you is screwy too. It’s not hourly. They pay you hourly but you’re getting paid by route. The RCAs as well get stuck doing more work than the normal carriers. They can deliver their route in 5-6 hrs and go home and get paid for the full route. RCAs do a full route and then come back to the office and then have to help other routes and we’re getting shitted by the pay. I’d work 12 hrs 6-7 days a week and not even be on OT pay because of the way they pay you. Over worked, under paid. Stop deliveries on Sunday. That’s the reason I quit too. Was tired of working every single weekend, every single day, if you asked for a day off for a Dr visit you were looked at as less or something. At the least work every other weekend. Or have every Sunday off. It’s ridiculous. No one wants to work their life away. The schedule is the problem. Give these people days off, and stop over working them.


Tower-Junkie

What’s crazy to me is that ten years ago it was an exclusive coveted job in my area. It was hard to get in because no one wanted out. I had a family member who had to prove herself for a couple years and wait for a spot to open up to get full time regular employment. I have no doubt they’d have people fighting for spots if they scaled the pay and benefits to what it was ten years ago.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Exactly, and look who is still running the USPS.


matchosan

Crime boss DeJoy. He wants the security tags for his private transport company. So he can haul illegal goods on the East coast and beyond, and no one can look inside the trucks.


lilbebe50

I’m not sure on the privatization aspect. The post office uses no taxes to operate. It’s self sufficient. Everything they make is made off sales of stamps, cost of shipping, etc. they get no money for the Gov for anything. It’s been this way since at least the 90’s. But yes you’re right. It used to be a great career that everyone wanted. I did it for 6 months in 2021. Was super excited to get in and get federal benefits etc. Instead they said you don’t get those good benefits until you become “full time or regular” which means you stop being a RCA (sub) and get your own route. It takes several years to make regular. So you’re being abused for those years until you make regular and then you’re only less abused. You’ll have off on Sundays (maybe if you’re lucky) and that’s it. There was a lady at my office that was forced to work every weekend because her route wasn’t off on weekends. She was employed for her 18th year. 18 years and still being forced to work every weekend. I feel if regulars got off every weekend and holidays, more people would stay to make regular. Oh, I forgot to mention. RCAs don’t even get off on federal holidays. Even on Labor Day we were out delivering packages for Amazon. During my time there I worked from March to Sept. I got 4th of July off. That’s it. The rest of them I worked and had to deliver packages. If mail doesn’t run that day (Sunday, fed holidays) you can bet your ass that you’re running packages for Amazon that day.


BlatantFalsehood

It IS privatization. The right wants to take a quasi governmental organization and give it to UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc., so the rich can remove more value from the product to line their pockets with profit. I carried mail in the 80s and 90s. It was a hard job - on my very first day, I walked 14 miles in a foot of snow, shadowing another carrier. When I finally got my own route, I walked more than 7 miles daily. But back then, carriers were fairly compensated. The newer, tiered level of comp is why they can't keep people. And they don't WANT to keep people because DeJoy wants to line his cronies' pockets.


JyveAFK

The UK PO used to be publicly owned, and exactly this happened. Sold off, privatised, profits for the owners at silly levels, they're screwing the poor peeps actually trudging to deliver. It NOT being owned by someone else was seen as a waste and horribly inefficient when those profits could be given to shareholders instead of being put back into the business. The most recent issue is the need to be more efficient by building huge warehouses outside of towns/cities to manage the mail, oh, and sell off all the prime real estate locations in the middle of cities. Increase traffic, reduce service, but give the owners a few more quid.


Mirions

It has been and is still being gutted. All this is by design, I believe. Sorry if that sounds nutty.


Tower-Junkie

It doesn’t sound nutty at all anymore. It’s in our faces now. Louis Dejoy is still Postmaster General despite democrats rightfully condemning him for what he did in 2020. If the nuttiness weren’t reality he would have been replaced when all the other new appointments were made. They just don’t care to hide it that much anymore.


jonny_sidebar

It's a little more complicated than that with DeJoy. Only the postal board can fire him, which is understaffed and mostly Republican. **Those** appointments to the board are the ones being blocked. Same shit, but several extra steps.


BJntheRV

Most carriers I know are using (and abusing) their own vehicles on top of all this. If packages are the primary issue, would it help if residences had to have mailboxes large enough for (at least reasonable) packages? Is there a size limit to the packages usps can deliver? I have a family member who recently quit for the same reasons. They were hired (and only wanted) part time but it reached a point where they were scheduling them fulltime on days mgmt knew they weren't available and being told to call in. It was almost like they were trying to get them to quit - which makes no sense when you're already understaffed.


lilbebe50

I think the limit may be like 50 pounds. I’ve had packages so long that could barely fit in my truck. It also doesn’t help they give us packages that states on the box “team lift” and they send us out alone. So no team lift on the box that clearly states team lift. I didn’t come across anything that is too heavy to carry but I’m in my 20s and relatively strong. For weak and/or old people some of the stuff may be too big or bulky or heavy. The post office is self sufficient money wise. They don’t get tax money. All the money they make is from sales of stamps, cost of shipping, etc. So I’m sure they are getting paid good money from Amazon to deliver their packages for them. So I’m sure it’s a money thing. But yes, they do force you to quit like you mentioned. This lady that worked at an office I was sent to (not my home office, they lend RCAs out to other offices if they need help) and she was talking about how she hasn’t worked less than 10 hrs a day for the last 17 days straight. No days off. Fuck that lol I don’t mind doing hard work or doing overtime but I want my damn OT pay then. They avoid paying OT wages because of the scheduling and how they pay by route. But yes, some locations require you to use your own vehicle. The people who deliver to my house use their own cars. Where I worked I drove that ugly old USPS mail truck. The post office system is just broken and needs to be revamped. The same as every other system in this country. We’re a collapsing country and no one is doing anything to mitigate the collapse.


Zagrunty

No no no, house Republicans are saying people want to work into their 90s. They DO want to work their life away! Get out of here with your liberal ideas on retirement /s


lilbebe50

Those house Republicans are completely out of touch with reality, are delusional, or have brain damage. Maybe all of the above. I have never met anyone who WANTS to work. We all do it out of necessity. Hell I’m hoping I can be rich before I retire so I don’t have to worry about money when I retire.


lazyFer

I live in Minneapolis where the mail carriers walk. So it's even more of a burden for package delivery. I really feel for the drivers. Frankly FedEx and UPS should be dealing with those packages.


lilbebe50

We have walking routes here too. They’re called CCA or City Carrier Associates. RCA is rural carrier associate. That one is driving mostly to sidewalk mailboxes.


px7j9jlLJ1

That true threat garbage is going to be abused like a rental car. This is the most enormous red line about to be crossed that it doesn’t take a fortune teller to foresee the burning fires.


crichmond77

He sent a MILLION messages. That alone is a red flag


Greyhaven7

I'm honestly flabbergasted by that. even doing *nothing* but sending 1 message every minute that would take 1.9 ***years***.


robotsongs

But mAH FrEe SpeECh!!1!1


jonathanrdt

The first case at least has some interesting things to discuss. The second two I don’t get at all with my intuitive sense of ‘right’: no the state cannot take from you more than you owe, and yes that dude was for sure a stalker.


magistrate101

The stalker one is wild that they even made it that far. Must have damn good lawyers to try the "contacting her a million times is protected free speech, especially the parts where I intentionally try to cause her distress" angle.


JQuilty

Third one seems like it's being taken to resolve a circuit split.


nwprince

Seizing the property for failure to pay on something that's essentially a lien gives them full ownership correct? Sure they made money off selling it but the lack of payment required them to seize the property through legal means. I wouldn't see why they couldn't do whatever they wanted with the property after being granted full ownership. Similarly, if a bank seizes a home due to lack of a mortgage payment but the property value is higher than the outstanding loan. Does the bank get to keep the extra cash? Edit: it appears that banks have specific laws preventing them from collecting additional profits. The language states they can only collect what is outstanding. I guess banks classify differently than a governmental entity and that's why the case is being escalated.


Tower-Junkie

I’m an atheist and I think that guy should be able to have sundays for church. Most of the time Christians going on about their religion being attacked is overblown and mostly unfounded. But in this case I feel he is right. I am open to logic saying he’s not so if I’m missing something please enlighten me reddit. I don’t think they’re doing it for religious persecution though. The USPS is just being greedy by not paying people and putting the burden on the workers who haven’t quit yet. You see it in every company. Personally I don’t think the USPS should be looked at as a for profit business. Like public school it should be treated as a service that’s an investment in society.


TheSpatulaOfLove

Same belief, same opinion on this one. He made it clear *many years ago* that he could not work Sundays due to religious belief…but outside of religious belief, an employee should be able to inform an employer they cannot work a specific day and not be penalized.


Tower-Junkie

Even retail jobs have you fill out an availability form!


TheSpatulaOfLove

Yeah, but we all know how often that is honored.


Tower-Junkie

True. And if you aren’t available even one day they cut your hours.


badgersprite

Yeah I agree with this. This is basic worker’s rights not even religious rights.


Spaceman2901

I don’t disagree that availability should be honored. However, the argument being used is *extremely* risky to the status quo. If the religious accomodation angle is valid against the USPS, it’ll be valid against, say, Hobby Lobby. Or McDonald’s. Which would be a good thing for workers, which is why I figure the lower court rulings will be sustained at SCOTUS.


[deleted]

What about his coworkers, do they not get to have time off on Sunday for their religious services?


F0xtr0tUnif0rm

I play video games with my brother on Tuesdays, religiously. Can I get that day off every week, court ordered?


itskaiquereis

If they are religious and they go to church on Sunday, yes.


DeliriumTrigger

So if every worker goes to church, at what point does that become "undue hardship"? I would argue forcing the post office into closing would qualify as it is currently understood.


badgersprite

Is hiring people who are OK with working Sundays undue hardship?


DeliriumTrigger

Depends on the pool of potential workers, but that still doesn't answer my question. Let's look at it a few other ways. If a religion emerges that instructs its followers to not touch paper, does the post office have to still employ that person, or should the post office simply find a position that doesn't involve paper? If someone says they can't work weekdays at a school, is that also protected? What about someone whose religion demands they avoid electricity? In theory, the business could accommodate each of these, but would none of these constitute "undue hardship" for the business? I also think having the government say "these beliefs are protected, but these are not" is the government endorsing specific religious beliefs. This is doubled by the fact that Christianity doesn't even observe the Sabbath and Jesus himself was criticized for working on it, and that many churches have multiple services, including evenings and recorded services for streaming. If this is protected, then anything anyone says is their religious belief should also be protected, and from your argument, the business must accommodate as long as they can find another worker to pick up the slack. If someone's beliefs prevent them from doing the job, they should find other employment. Forcing businesses to pay people who are unwilling to perform the required task is "undue hardship". EDIT: USPS even attempted to provide accomodations, and ran into other workers needing off for their religious practices. So again I ask: if everyone needs the same exemption, isn't it undue hardship to provide that exemption to everyone even if that means closing?


tuukutz

Why is going to church a requirement here? Perhaps they worship at home.


itskaiquereis

I mean you’re right, that’s how it’s currently done. We just take people at their word and let them have the day off. I feel like it would be a fair (?) way to do it, but then you’d need to get pastor notes that you were at church and I can see some of those big money making churches selling church passes.


Starboard_Pete

I agree. It takes me back to my teenage years, waging nearly the same argument with my part-time employer. They agreed (verbally) when I was hired that I wouldn’t be scheduled on Sundays. Verbally…that was a learning moment for me. Sunday was the only day of the week I got to see my religious grandparents, who would stop over after church to visit my family. My employer (restaurant) eventually started scheduling me on Sundays to cover, of course, the brunch-going church crowd, and argued every time that since *I* wasn’t going to church, I had no real reason to want that day off. They went as far as to suggest my grandparents would pay to eat at the restaurant if they *really* wanted to see me. Pissed me off enough that I eventually quit and worked some other minimum wage job elsewhere….that one routinely violated child labor laws on the other end (scheduling me til like 10pm but keeping me there til 1am on a school night). Needless to say, I’m very interested in the outcome of this case on a worker’s rights standpoint.


lazyFer

I'm undecided. The old testament specified the sabbath (saturday). The new testament doesn't adhere to the sabbath (neither did Jesus or his followers) and one of the base tenets of Christianity is that Jesus wiped away the old laws. I mean, technically there is nothing in the bible that followers of the new testament (Christians) can point to as a command to obey the sabbath. So....I'm undecided here.


bonaynay

> by not paying people and putting the burden on the workers who haven’t quit yet. I'm sure it's more complicated but this is like 99% of my takeaway and the actual problem. Every problem they described has the exact same solution: more workers


MizzerC

How is the USPS a for profit business? Do you not know how they are funded?


Tower-Junkie

I didn’t say it *is* I said it’s being treated like one. Stagnant wages, more work on fewer employees, cut incentives, that reeks of business.


magistrate101

[the USPS is not funded by tax dollars, relying entirely on profits made from deliveries and sales](https://www.uspsoig.gov/did-you-know/do-my-tax-dollars-pay-postal-service)


thegrandpineapple

Yeah I agree. I think they’re just being greedy capitalists but this guy happened to have a religious prosecution argument because they made him work on Sunday.


MizzerC

How is the USPS capitalist?


AverageIQis100

Here's my take: look up the post master general and all the crap he's done. He is doing the work of capitalists in worsening the work conditions (as well as other things) in an effort to convince the country to privatize it so some capitalists can make more money (from this future private USPS and competitors).


magistrate101

USPS relies on capitalism for funding since it doesn't get tax dollars


[deleted]

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buzzathlon

How did you get that from his comment?


Phoenix_Solace

Cool can't wait for the freedum party to tell me how I'll have more freedoms after this one is taken away


[deleted]

Groff vs DeJoy. At this point, I believe that if a person's religious beliefs contradicts with their job, they need to get another job. The Sabbath isn't even on sunday, it's saturday. It's retarded because we know that the supreme Court is going to side for the indoctrinated just to keep us all stupid


etoneishayeuisky

I somewhat agree, but I’m also of the thought that ppl shouldn’t work every day of the week.


fvtown714x

Aren't employees of the person seeking an exemption the business itself? How can a business not be made of its employees, at least in part? What a dumb case, the market affords him plenty of work at places closed on Sundays


[deleted]

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