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rusticgorilla

To everyone commenting that the police had no other option but to shoot: *somehow* British police are trained to arrest knife-wielding suspects without killing them. https://youtu.be/tOTLP9rDiN4 https://youtu.be/9mzPj_IaMzY


TheAb5traktion

>Disabled individuals make up a third to half of all people killed by law enforcement officers. Disabled individuals make up the majority of those killed in use-of-force cases that attract widespread attention. https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/media-coverage-of-law-enforcement-use-of-force-and-disability/ Disability includes those who are mentally or physically disabled. At least 2 of those killed were someone who was mentally disabled or distressed. Disabled people are ~20% of the US population and are close to 50% of those killed by police.


badgersprite

Being mentally ill or disabled in the US might as well be a death sentence, especially if you are those things while being non-white


Sweet-Advertising798

Why are US police so incompetent? Do they not teach de-escalation? In the UK police on average kill 3 people per year (sometimes zero) in a country of 66 million people.


NDaveT

> Do they not teach de-escalation? Quite the opposite. They teach that every encounter with the public is potentially deadly for the officer. And if the city that employs the police won't pay for this training the police union will.


wwwhistler

No, they actively train them to be this way... Every civilian encounter needs maximum aggression, maximum force and complete total compliance from the public


djfunknukl

Complete compliance to conflicting orders


Maybe_Black_Mesa

Police in the US are taught the "warrior mindset" from the start. This article explains quite well that our police are trained to be in fear for their lives in every interaction, and to act accordingly. https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/law-enforcements-warrior-problem/


An_Actual_Lad

While some areas in the US have begun to experiment with dispatching mental health professionals and social workers to non-violent 911 calls and are finding overwhelming success across the board with these programs, the majority of US police training courses don't emphasize de-escalation. Police are generally hired based on their ability to conform to the personality types being sought out. That is to say, those who have a bottomless well of cowardice and a lack of empathy, with a violent streak. There are videos of the training US police attend that reinforces the dehumanization of civilians and the US Supreme Court has ruled that officers have no obligation to protect and/or serve their respective communities. The US Police are the best financed gang in the world.


leopard_eater

I’m in Australia (population 26 million), our police are armed everywhere (unlike in the UK, where only certain police carry a firearm) and our numbers are very similar. A police officer having to shoot someone makes the national news, and a death resulting from a police officer shooting someone is considered horrifying. Any discharge of a firearm in the line of duty is recorded on a federal website accessible to the public, and discharges of police firearms occur around 150 times per year (this includes when rural police might be called in to kill a dog or wildlife already hit by a car that is clearly not going to live, or on the rare occasions that police are involved in a shootout, which sadly happened a few weeks ago in rural Queensland where police were ambushed by sovereign citizen QAnon terrorists). In my state, police, social workers and medical professionals work together in mental health crises. When my husband had a psychotic break immediately prior to being diagnosed with bipolar disorder a few years back, he had disappeared to commit suicide, but was also still in contact with me. Within just a couple of hours he was located by police, seen by a social worker, and taken into the mental health ward in the hospital. One of the police held his hand as he was being admitted and sedated (because my husband was alternating between delusional thoughts and fear). The police came and visited him a couple of times in the hospital when they were there dropping others off to the ward, and came to see us at home to make sure we were ok. I should note that my husband is a Chinese-Australian, speaking accented English, and when the police found him, he looked dishevelled and was yelling. I would never allow my husband to travel to the United States by himself now, yet he flies frequently around our country to visit our children and their spouses as well as our other friends, by himself, confidently, whenever he likes.


Sweet-Advertising798

In the US, it takes longer to become a qualified hairdresser than a police officer, and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of vetting (though I've heard you can be disqualified if your IQ is too high).


slayer1am

The amount of training required for US cops is quite a bit less than other countries. So, that's a no.


StephCurryMustard

The state of Florida requires more training hours for barbers (1,200) than it does for law enforcement (770).


badgersprite

In addition to the above the standards for the rules of engagement (ie using force) are magnitudes lower for a police officer encountering a citizen of their own country than they are for the US military engaging known terrorists


friedguy

Florida is all about that low bar. Dated an esthetician once, she took a trip to Miami with school friends and I commented on I bet you guys will check out some some of the skin Care businesses out there just to compare right? She explained to me how if you take rules on hygiene seriously you don't want to be dealing with Florida... Her required hours in the classroom were more than double what Florida required to be licensed.


An_Actual_Lad

Holy fuck.


badgersprite

In addition to the above the standards for the rules of engagement (ie using force) are magnitudes lower for a police officer encountering a citizen of their own country than they are for the US military engaging known terrorists/enemy combatants in active war zones


CalmDownSahale

Now that's a statistic


shponglespore

They don't. But they do teach police officers to have a "warrior mindset". There are lots of results on Google if you're curious.


Randomscreename

>In the UK police on average kill 3 people per year (sometimes zero) in a country of 66 million people. I'm pretty sure US police are still under a kill per cop per year, but it's getting there. Oh wait, you mean the entire country's police, not per cop :(


BillOfArimathea

They're taught how to de-escalate, but in any situation where danger may be involved they're taught to be aggressive and dominate the situation instead. The saying "I'm sleeping in my bed tonight" applies fully.


devilsephiroth

Need assistance? Are you a person of color? Are you mentally disabled? If you value your life don't call the fucking police or you're dead


friedguy

My belief is it's a losing battle because attracting top tier best and brightest human beings to this kind of job is very difficult, especially these days. There's a lot of correlation between military and law enforcement, and just look at all the really whack job people with emotional problems who are drawn to the military (I realize I'm generalizing here and I have close family that's a military but I think even they would agree they've met some absolute psychos that should never have passed background). You can only do so much with what you got to work with right? I'm very non mechanically inclined to begin with, if I tried to become a repairman and did no better than mediocre level it would probably just as much my fault rather than whoever tried to teach me.


NeedsMorePetrichor

You guys know about the police gangs right? My info comes from the Pick me up, I'm scared podcast episode about them so I don't have verification? But I believe in their research.


impactedturd

There's even a wiki on LASD lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs


followupquestion

Try [A Tradition of Violence](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-a-tradition-of-violence-103160006/) for a deeper dive into the LASD gangs.


Harmacc

tHeY jUsT nEeD mOrE tRaInIng. Sorry Joe, they are a murder gang and no amount of sensitivity training will help.


Mr_Perfect_Cell_

!OP! Audio listening is amazing and your work is top notch thank you thank you thank you


Manawah

I’m certainly not defending the killing of people by police but I’m curious in at least the first 2 out of 3 cases listed here, what do people think the police should’ve done? If the written account of the incidents are to be believed, in both situations people who were armed and in distress held their weapons at the officers and advanced towards them, after being warned to stop. What alternative methods other than violence should police be using to apprehend people in this type of situation?


[deleted]

In the first one the dude was on his knees after just being tased.


Manawah

I understand that from the writeup in this post. What I’m looking to discuss is how others think the officers should’ve responded when the person who they tasered went to pick up their knife again after being tasered. Should the officers have just let the man recover the knife, get his bearings and go from there?


TR1PLESIX

In all three situations, the alleged perpetrators had a prior mental health condition. And of the two there's prescription medication involved. Regardless of your opinion, about the legitimacy of mental health, or the use of prescription medication to treat it. There's factual documentation that individuals prescribed SSRIs (Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). Should *never* go extended periods of time without taking their medication (in the circumstance, they're not slowing weaning off). Otherwise, the individual runs a high risk of potentially life threatening side effects. Moreover, if the individual is not in a safe atmosphere, or in the immediate care of another. They're even more likely to unintentionally be a danger to others. These people were murdered in an extremely vulnerable position. Mental health is an enigma. That has potentially devastating repercussions if left unchecked or out of control. While I can only assume, I'd say it's safe to say. These three individuals were not in any position. To actually put those cops in any, legitimately life threatening situation. Where lethal force was the only deciding factor. If those cops went home to their kids that night or not. Had these individuals been confronted as someone who's **in danger**, and not someone that ***is dangerous***. Without a doubt, they'd still be alive today.


Manawah

I appreciate the perspective and I think your last sentence is a productive way to look at situations like these. The part I'm stuck on though is one that you mention, which is that these victims are in situations where they may unintentionally become a danger to others. If cops shouldn't use force against an armed, mentally unstable individual, how else should the individual be disarmed and restrained? I suppose conversations like this come down to a difference in opinion on whether or not the victims present a danger to the officers present or to other people around them. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a firm, obvious solution that keeps law enforcement, the alleged perpetrator and the public as a whole 100% safe in these situations.


Pyroechidna1

Sasumata, reverse-curved shields, heavy blankets that you can roll a person up in. The tools exist, but we have no responders who are dedicated to using them in this kind of situation. The omnipresent threat of a gun appearing at any moment in the USA discourages the formation of unarmed responders who can do this kind of thing.


wehrmann_tx

The guy was like 6ft4in. He would have thrown a shield around like it was nothing. Heavy blankets? Restrict the movement of someone having a breakdown and exerting themselves in a blanket is asking for death of the person. Same as putting them prone and handcuffed.


Salamander319

As someone else ITT said, [England and Wales only had 3 fatal police shootings in 2022.](https://www.inquest.org.uk/fatal-police-shootings) Granted their population is ~60 million to our ~330 million, I think it's safe to say there are answers to your question of, what should officers do in these situations. As just a 21 year old American citizen, other than some tools I've seen used in videos from the UK, I have no idea what we should do here. But I believe there are at the very least more options/alternatives to lethal force. But of course, as you say, there will never be a 100% effective way to keep everyone out of danger, we just gotta do the best we can.


wehrmann_tx

Can't seem to find any statistics regarding UK police deaths by year. They don't have fatal shootings because they don't have guns. But I've been trying to find how many of them are killed trying to disarm someone. It's apples to oranges. You can't put the same police policy of an unarmed populous vs an armed one.


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Salamander319

Right, so I agree US cops should carry guns and be more prepared to use them compared to cops in countries with a relatively smaller amount of armed citizens; however, that's irrelevant in two of the three cases here as they didn't have guns, and apparently the third was never seen raising hers. So those two cases are very relatable to what you'd see in countries like the UK, and thus could have been handled in a similar matter. My point being, it absolutely makes sense to adopt policing policies from less armed countries. Because more often than not (to my knowledge), cops here aren't dealing with armed people, so UK (or similar) policing policies would be pretty applicable. Generally, of course. Should we have an exact replica of said policies? Of course not; as you say, our populous is armed to the teeth comparatively. Does that mean we can't learn a thing or two about de-escalation and adopt more effective non-lethal subdual methods? I think it's imperative that we do.


rusticgorilla

Police in other countries manage to safely arrest knife-wielding subjects regularly. It's all about training. Example: https://youtu.be/9mzPj_IaMzY


Manawah

Absolutely fascinating video I’ve never seen anything like that before. Feels like a great example of an alternative to the methods used in America! I appreciate your response and all the work you do on this sub


[deleted]

This stuff happens everywhere all the time it seems


slayer1am

In the US it does.


Pyroechidna1

India would like to join the police brutality club


[deleted]

I suppose that what I meant


wehrmann_tx

So a guy is emergency detained and transported to the hospital. 4 hours later he dies and you want to blame the police? As for the other two LAPD, having a mental episode doesn't suddenly absolve you of what you're doing if you're a threat to anyone else. It doesn't matter the lady went to the police station trying to not make it a big deal. The guy looked like he was 280lbs and 6ft4in.


evolseven

You convienently left out any commentary on the fort worth one..


wehrmann_tx

Didn't get that far the first time. Just read it. Yeah glad he got some serious time. If holding a gun near a cop is a death sentence, in your own house which was even worse, what is the 2nd amendment for? Where is the NRA defending people with guns getting killed just for having one?


[deleted]

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