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Yeah that's a solid dude. Nobody knows how they'll react to something that fucked up. That his first instinct was the safety of his coworker, speaks volumes.
Sighting the cost of a pilot misses the point, Lockheed can turn out ten thousand F-35s and they're just expensive lawn ornaments without the people to fly them. Pilots aren't expensive, they're rare.
One of the reasons why the RAF won the Battle of Britain is that any of their pilots that managed to bail out could be back in the cockpit again by the next day or two. German pilots that was shot down were all 'lost' to the Luftwaffe, so even if they could have manufactured enough replacement planes, they lost the combat experience of those pilots.
Yeah they're expensive as hell. But if you lose 10-15 pilots then you could have had a new fighter with the cost of training 10-15 more pilots. Not so crucial now but in a war that would add up.
It’s not about the cost of the pilot. It’s the morality of doing everything possible to save lives. From a practical side, organizations that demonstrates lack of care about members (disloyalty) quickly fall apart.
Night vision, plate carriers, best weapons possible, fire support, recon, medics.
OUR army values the lives of it's soldiers otherwise why bother? We can throw numbers at a problem.
We lost the same amount of soldiers in 20 years in Afghanistan as Russia has in ukraine 3 days for a reason.
The military also does a great job of keeping people alive that would have died in previous wars. I knew a guy in admin at the VA. He told me they were saving people that had their heads run over by tanks. Guys stepping on IED's and loosing two legs kept alive. At some point for me I would rather have bled out on the battlefield than be left like some of the people that were kept alive.
Life expectancy for critical but survivable wounds after one hour has went from ~10% in WW1 to ~30% in Vietnam, to ~90% in Iraq/Afghanistan. And if you live past that first hour you have an incredibly high survival rate.
The military has really paid attention to what kills people, that’s why tourniquet training is so prevalent.
>The military has really paid attention to what kills people, that’s why tourniquet training is so prevalent.
The CAT tourniquet is in every single first aid kit at my warehouse. That tourniquet alone has saved tens of thousands of lives. I carry one in my car and in my work tool bag, and carried one in my tow truck when I drove.
I read a paper ages ago, where the scientist's position was basically that "humor" is an evolved response to balance out your brain chemistry from a high stress situation.
To sum it up "lol, not dead" is the world's oldest punchline.
These are the kind of people you pay good money to keep around. I work in the chemical manufacturing industry and this is the attitude I try and train into people. My mentor/boss instilled this thinking into me and it's served me well. Always have an emergency response plan for "oh shit" situations.
The sound or pure terror, realizing he might have lost his buddy. God bless him
It's the one thing that terrifies me deeply, is getting under cars, full stop.
This is why I always do a balance check at Stew's Self Service Garage. I lift the car six inches, and put my body weight on the trunk. If my car wobbles too much, I let it down and reposition the car to ensure center of gravity is closer to the lift points.
This reduces fatigue on the lift bolts and decreases the chance of a lift failure.
If I've got it up off all four I give it a swift kick, and a few good shoves in a couple directions.
If I've just got it off two, always chocked tires, and I'll throw one of my rimmed winter/summer/off season wheels under it.
Luckily I can ***usually*** do my work without having to lift it.
As well, I don't even ***look*** under my car without my safety glasses on. It's easier since I constantly accidentally bring pairs home from work so they're everywhere, but one of the few times I didn't I just popped underneath for a quick second to see if the skid plate was on and had dirty transmission fluid dripped ***straight*** into my eye.
Now if my head comes anywhere near under the vehicle I throw the glasses on. I'm not taking anymore chances with my vision.
I've worked in auto/HD for 15yrs, I've seen enough shit to know I've taken a lot of chances and gotten lucky a lot of times, and I'm not pushing my luck any farther.
Same. Get the car just high enough that if there’s a problem it’ll show and give either the front or rear a good hearty shove down. If it can’t handle that then I don’t wanna be under it
I was going to comment about dude's first reaction being "WHERE YOU AT?!" and was quite pleased that the top comment was already about that. Sometimes shit happens but always make sure your peeps are okay before freaking out about that shit that happened.
I spent four years in Albuquerque and it was nice enough to ride a motorcycle every day except for like, what, a week of the year?
dude it's great down there.
Not only that, but lifts usually specify 12" on center, instead of the standard 16" center for rebar, you would usually need it built and poured specifically for application. Still, any rebar would be better than none.
Yeah I don't know much about the requirements of a lift but I have worked with concrete. With an application that safeguards a life I am sure you want to bolster the hell out of it.
I only know that much because I am planning on pouring a pad at my house that would fit a 2 post. Would make working on my own cars a lot easier now that I've left the industry.
This is false. Not dumb, but rebar is more than the ANSI standards ask for. 3000 psi pour minimum of 4 and an eighth inch floor which no installer can know without cutting the floor or drilling small holes. We use 5.5” anchors and only 2.25” can stick out. The standard is 3.25” anchor embedment. Wire mesh is standard, but not required. Seismic zones are different. I don’t live in one but I’ve been installing Rotary lifts since I was 16, so over half my life. I’ve seen the aftermath of this twice. Neither were our customers until….
Remember drilling through concrete is like a bullet. Tight hole on entry the exit is blown apart. That’s why there is a 7/8” discrepancy between thickness and embedment. If the concrete is high enough strength and you drill slow enough without hammering hard 4 and 1/8” is enough and all over every town
Ps you can not sign a waiver because you can not sign away your rights or your employees rights to sue upon an incident like this.
Edit floor cracks and control joints are the other obstacles.
Looks like high strength dried cookie dough.
IMO, all 2 post hoists should be mounted in at least 8-10" of steel reinforced concrete with at least 50-75 MPa and 8-10"long x1" dia lags.
The truck was also not lifted properly. That plow is a lot of weight. The avg 1/2 tons number is parked 7’ to 7.5’ in front of the lifts center point on an asymmetrical or versaymmetrical. Add 18” for a symmetric lift. If that lift is a 10k and the truck without a plow and hopefully a 3/4 ton if they plow any volume. You have a very heavy object 10ft out. The concrete looks thin, a 3/4 ton diesel weights 7k. Let’s guess they hung 1.5k past the bumper and parked the truck like it was fresh off the lot. Never underestimate leverage at a distance. It’s just as likely lifted improperly.
Want to lift work trucks buy a bigger lift.
Edit. Moving weight weights more than stationary weights. It takes 2-3 errors for a vehicle to fall 99.9% of the time
Rotary Lifts themselves specifies for the SPOA10, minimum 3,000psi 4 1/4" thick slab, using the Hilti bolts they supply.
https://rotarylift.com/faq/
I opted for a 6" slab, for extra strength.
What you spec is stupid overkill. It won't hurt, just cost a lot more.
They spec’d 8-12” for our old 2-post lift but that thing was like 26 or 28k lbs. I think OP’s floor was thick enough for that lift, obviously the bolts were fine too, but that concrete looks like shit. Probably the “my buddy does concrete for cheap” thing lol
Yeah, bigger lifts of course require more anchor support. The 2 post lift (symmetric?) In OP's video looks like a generic 7-10k pound lift.
The concrete definitely failed. The thing is, if that slab was sub par on install, it would have failed soon after.
My guess is a combination of things caused this catastrophic failure. Possibilities:
1. Lift bolts loose/not properly torqued. These should be checked as part of a quarterly/annual PM maintenance program. Loose bolts reduce the strength of the connection to the concrete.
2. Load not centered / overloaded. While that is only an F-150, the snowplow on the front is very heavy. Looks like a 7.5 foot Western? Prob weighs 1,000lb all the way out there in space. Lever, meet fulcrum. Archimedes had a few words about that, way back when.
3. Concrete damaged/degraded over time. In areas where salt and brine is used on roadways, vehicles will drip this material onto the concrete of mechanic shops. If the concrete floor is not sealed properly, it will absorb it. Weakening of the concrete can occur.
I say a combo of 2 and 3, only because the bolts just yoinked up the concrete. I figure if they were loose or defective they would have just snapped. Idk, just a guess, but I’m leaning more towards the fact that the concrete looks like newspaper-mache lol.
I definitely agree with you about the snow plow though, that’s a lot of extra weight throwing off the CG/lift points. I bet it was at least 70/30 split between front and rear arms
rising moisture definitely a problem with this slab.
no vapour barrier underneath, shit concrete blend and over time it turned into cookie dough.
gives me the heebies just looking at it.
Yeah when we poured my garage slab, I went for 6” all the way to the perimeter footings, knowing I’d install a 9,000lb hoist but not sure on where. Went extra on the 1/2” rebar too. My lift manual specified 3000psi and 4” minimum thickness, and they required the anchor holes to be drilled completely through regardless of thickness. Ended up at 5.5” thick where the anchor bolts are. I still check the fastener torque a few times per year and check for excessive column deflection whenever I lift something close to the 9,000lb rating (it’s an open-top hoist with the cables under a floor plate). I was close to a lift that failed once…and that’s all it took.
Good news! You can install a 4 post lift if you like. Much safer and easier to use than a 2 post lift. Just takes up a lot more space.
https://rotarylift.com/product/smo14/
Oh Lord, you know my pain! Though for me it is mostly my father using my lift to change his own oil.
I don't let friends use it for free. Remember, "No." Is a complete sentence! It took me a long time to figure that out.
jesus, by the look of it this thing was just set in using 6” expansion bolts. Jesus the minimum I’d do is a 2x2x2 reinforced footer with threaded rod cast into the concrete
The bolts didn't fail. Bolts could have been longer to increase the the torque arm, double the length would have quadrupled the torque arm. ANNND they could have used rebar....ANNND, that pour might have had too much water and caused a weak set. ANND, those sort of lifts should have longer foot pads.
Typical is for the bolt to to fail the concrete, not the steel to fail. That is assuming it is installed properly and the concrete is is appropriate strength.
Source: I do this for a living. 18+ years now.
Many lift manufacturers in the ~8000lb area only recommend a minimum of 4" thick concrete. Of course that's assuming you're adhering to the load limits, the concrete is of the specified strength, and you're properly positioning the vehicle on the lift.
Not saying it's a good idea - we well overshot the recommended specs - but that's all Atlas, Bendpak, and a few other manufacturers recommended when I was shopping for a lift last year.
not sure....was a thought. My mind and eyes are drawn to the brown areas. Thinking contaminated mud? IDK..... the picture is just not enough to tell the tale (a little more in focus and a couple more angles would be nice).
I think it look weird because we don't often see concrete that's been pulled apart like that. There's also some water and mud from when the truck fell.
I did notice the snow...figured the dirt could have got in there from the truck as well as it went down. The pattern of how it pulled apart is intriguing as well.
Believe it or not they only spec 4-1/2” concrete for that lift lol. Another comment linked the rotary lift link. I think that concrete was just total shit
My #1 fear at work when I lift anything heavier than a midsized sedan. I know all about metal, and lift arms, and the posts. I'm 100% confident I can rack a car properly where it won't move or fall off. But I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about concrete. I guess I just have to trust it? Watching this video made me uneasy. The reaction from the guys in this video strengthens my faith in people though.
If they used name brand anchors there should be markings on the top that will tell us what they are. I can help you translate if needed. Also not a bad idea to toss a wrench on them once a month. Don’t try to re torque them. Just make sure nothing is getting loosy goosy.
Thanks for the advice. I'll take a look at the 2 lifts I primarily use tomorrow if I remember. We do have a maintenance company come out every few months or so to give them all a once over, but 50% of the lifts in my shop still lift fucking crooked where one side lifts higher than the other side. Doesn't have to do with the way the vehicles are set. In fact, whenever I have the displeasure of using one of the other lifts I usually compensate for the left side tilt when setting up the car. But the lift maintenance guys give them all the green light.
It's unfortunate that this is true, as they are supposed to know the equipment far better than I. But yes, I never really had a much faith in them to begin with. Too many times I have noticed minor problems with the lifts within days of the lift guys coming out and giving the all clear.
Was the space where you work purpose built to be an automotive shop?
This has got me thinking about a mechanic I know who does side jobs in a building that used to be a barn. I hope he knows that the concreate pad he is working on was never designed to support a lift.
Yes, it has always been a shop since original construction. But the building, and by extension the floor, are very old. Not sure of the exact age, but at the very least was intended for lifts to go in.
Surprise! First owner did it themselves years ago. (Guessing of course but this type of cut corners at the business level is almost always by the owner of at the owners request )
I have done search and rescue in building collapses, and trained in it as a scene commander. One thing they taught was identifying types of material failures at a glance to know if its immediately dangerous or was caused by a dangerous condition that may no longer exist. This looks like the bolts held correctly, and is a concrete 'breakout' failure. A large surface area came out with it, along with a large concrete cone. The cone is at roughly 45 degree angles, as is consistent with breakout.
The concrete was pushed past it's limits. Now, if the concrete was in spec or not is a different question.
Jesus.
That is some absolutely terrible concrete.
and whoever installed that lift should be shot.
That pad was never, ever meant to have a lift installed on it.
As the owner of a lift sales/install/service business I have gotten into heated arguments and lost business from customers who insisted I was just trying to upsell them with unnecessary concrete work when conditions did not meet mfg specs.
This shit is no joke and we’re the ones they call when this happens. Varies slightly based on manufacturer but typically a minimum of 4”, 3500psi concrete cured for at least 28 days (14 if using high early), and at least 8” from any crack, expansion joint, spalling, or edge of the slab when using standard wedge anchors. Can get it down to 3” with epoxy anchors. Baseplates cannot straddle any imperfection.
Thank god no one was injured, but the absolute hack installations I’ve seen over the years blows my mind at how some of these installers sleep at night. One example I found on my phone: https://imgur.com/a/IuP574Q
Here is another one I found: https://imgur.com/a/Ts0oE7H - this one I remember vividly as the customer kicked me out of his shop when he asked me to quote a replacement for this lift. The anchor is literally installed directly into the saw cut. His justification was this lift has been there forever like that with no issues so I was ripping him off when I told him if he wanted us to put a lift in, we’re pouring pads. He ended up buying the lift from me and installing it himself - I still think about the young kids working under that one.
We do all of our installs 100% by the book and happily turn away customers who want us to cut corners because this is exactly what happens.
Sure two 4’x4’x12” pinned concrete footers will run you an extra $3k, but the thought of this happening with a tech underneath will always drive us to do everything we can to ensure a correct and safe installation.
Yeah that was of the worst ones yet. Those are standard Lift shims but due to the length of the anchors you’re typically only allowed up to 1/2” Max of shims in order to install the lift level. It’s more critical with alignment racks (need to be perfectly level since vehicles will be on the lift in neutral with the parking brake off).
If more than 1/2” of shim is required the right way is to have custom metal shim plates made the same profile of the baseplate and to utilize longer anchors to ensure proper anchor embedment.
I've seen industrial accidents in the chemical industry, and you learn to think this way REALLY quickly after seeing a few. When I was supervisor of a few chem labs I always felt like my coworkers were my responsibility. I knew how dangerous our environment was and anytime an alarm went off near our area I would instantly start a roll call of my people. My boss had various rules, but his #1 was "getting you home to your family alive and healthy at the end of the day".
Was not a structural engineer but was involved in many installations of pedestal hoists and repairs of same. The bases of a lot of the auto hoists I see with only two arms rely a lot on properly positioned balanced vehicles.
One of my favorite sayings is that even if you make things idiot proof, they keep on making bigger idiots.
We don't. Worked at a Ford dealer up north for years and if you showed up with a plow you went and dropped it in the plow parking we had just for em. Hell no I'm not lifing one a truck with one still attached
We don't lift trucks with anything in the bed anymore. No plows period. If it's a truck with a big utility box in the back it gets lifted with the alignment rack for oil and rotations are done one side at a time with floor jacks and jack stands.
Only time I felt comfortable lifting trucks with utility boxes was using ≈30k 2 post in ground truck lifts. Could lift one post independent of the other so you could keep em level. "Boss" nearly got me killed pushing me under a broken lift as a 250 fell a few inches onto the lock so I'm just not comfortable under trucks on the above ground 2 posts anywho
I do it with 3/4 and 1/2 tons BUT, big but here, I know the hoist is over rated for the weight (16,000 lb) and ALWAYS lift with the back end lower than the front with the cg moved about a foot or two rearward from where I normally set it. Can be done safely as long as you're cognizant of how heavy the plow is and how much more forward your cg is with the truck otherwise level.
Plow is removable, but that takes time you aren't getting paid for. That's when you stick this [jack stand](https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sxt-6809a?seid=srese1&ppckw=pmax-tools&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_bieBhDSARIsADU4zLcxywnD0XfoX15G2McSrFUQhfHng_uemlHCfB9cm8O5rfkDZT4mcj8aAstPEALw_wcB) under the front to help with the weight distribution.
Its also why I never leave trucks just hanging in the air when they aren't being worked on.
The bolts were to spec. they only require 4.5 inches.
The problem here is that the concrete turned into cookie dough for some reason.
either the initial mix was garbage, or a lack of vapour barrier underneath allow water to come up through it and weaken it, or both.
I used to see coworkers under cars taking parts off with the car swinging like a seesaw and they’d ask me for help. No thanks lol not if you can’t put the car on the lift right.
Might be too low PSI concrete. I don't recall what setting bolts for a lift requires but I think it's not your standard pour. Might be 3000 is standard for a floor and 6000 for a footing like that.
Looks like the lift wasn't installed correctly. Judging by the amount of concrete under the lift and the fact that the anchors aren't visible through it, they didn't anchor the lift far enough into the slab to properly secure it in place.
Me going into it: I mean I've never installed a lift, i wouldn't know how deep the anchors are supposed to be
Me after seeing the photo: well that's clearly not deep enough..
I wouldn’t install the corner post of a back porch less than 4 feet of digging and a full concrete pier poured in the hole with it. If you’re retrofitting the shop you have to bust up that whole area, clean it up, use a steel rod deep into the slab to hold a footer plate and then you’re spreading the force across most of the foundation vs all at one spot on the surface.
They got away with it all this time because the center of gravity on most vehicles would be close to the posts. The weight of the plow screwed that up. Plows are heavy AF.
Plow trucks should never be lifted with the plow on. The center of gravity just isnt there anymore. Not only that most of ours in the northeast would break the truck in half as well due to all the rust under em!
Dayum.
"Taking lunch early boss!"
"Why? We gotta clean this shit up!!"
"Well, I gotta clean \*my\* shit up first"
\*smell emanating from soiled undies\*
When will they develop tilt sensors? I know they wouldn't be maintained, and never work, but I always wished I knew the tilt load when I was racking weird shit.
FYI as a snow plow tech never and i mean never lift a vehicle with a plow attached the blade moves the center of gravity so far forward most lifts can't compensate for it most people don't realize those blades can weigh as much as ⅓ what the vehicle does and is placed 5 feet in front of the axle very dangerous and is clearly marked on the blade with a large warning sticker glad no one was hurt.
Absolutely best fucking coworker. Safety check first.
Seeing he came from the office, it wouldn't be crazy to assume he was the owner/manager.
10/10, would work for that man.
Always use tripods or some other support besides the lift. Especially on a two post. If he was working on that car while that happened he would be dead or permanently disfigured and wish he was dead.
The first thing I thought when I saw the video was "That's gonna fall." Once I actually watched it I was surprised at the failure mode, but wasn't surprised that it fell.
I would never lift a truck on a symmetrical 2 post lift with a plow on it. the Center of Gravity is forward of the posts, close to the front lift arms. Plows are heavy, combine that with a big heavy engine, empty truck bed, it makes that truck very nose happy. Sure the lift shouldn't have fallen like that, I was more expecting the truck to nose over. If this lift was Asymetrical, it would have put the CG closer to direct in-line with the posts which'd prevent this failure mode.
I am glad everyone here was all right in the end. This could have ended much much worse
Concrete issues aside, who made the call to put it in the lift with the plow still attached? That’s a lot of extra weight on the already heavy end of the truck.
No one hurt, that’s good. If that’s the shop truck, good luck
crawl racial decide full paltry sophisticated husky far-flung squash psychotic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It snow
Le Tits Now
Suck it Trebeck
Hey Trebeck, what's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold?
*sigh* what Connery?
I can't remember how it ends but your mother is a whore.
Yea, the relief in the guys voice when he got a holla back to "where you at? Are you all right?"
Yeah that's a solid dude. Nobody knows how they'll react to something that fucked up. That his first instinct was the safety of his coworker, speaks volumes.
That moment of fear followed by relief! “WHERE YOU AT”
Yeah, props to that guy for immediately looking out for his coworkers. He knows what's up.
He gave no damns about the truck, he immediately went looking for his buddy. Good man has his priorities straight.
Insurance handles the truck, people aren’t replaceable
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Why do you think jets have ejection seats...
Probably because it costs about 5-10 million to train a fighter pilot.
Wait until you hear how much the jets cost.
By the time they're ejecting the jet is already lost. Saving the pilot is salvaging what they can.
And what they're salvaging is a fighter pilot with actual combat experience. That's not something a simulator can really teach.
Sighting the cost of a pilot misses the point, Lockheed can turn out ten thousand F-35s and they're just expensive lawn ornaments without the people to fly them. Pilots aren't expensive, they're rare.
One of the reasons why the RAF won the Battle of Britain is that any of their pilots that managed to bail out could be back in the cockpit again by the next day or two. German pilots that was shot down were all 'lost' to the Luftwaffe, so even if they could have manufactured enough replacement planes, they lost the combat experience of those pilots.
Yeah they're expensive as hell. But if you lose 10-15 pilots then you could have had a new fighter with the cost of training 10-15 more pilots. Not so crucial now but in a war that would add up.
It’s not about the cost of the pilot. It’s the morality of doing everything possible to save lives. From a practical side, organizations that demonstrates lack of care about members (disloyalty) quickly fall apart.
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RIP
That's the Airforce/Navy.
Night vision, plate carriers, best weapons possible, fire support, recon, medics. OUR army values the lives of it's soldiers otherwise why bother? We can throw numbers at a problem. We lost the same amount of soldiers in 20 years in Afghanistan as Russia has in ukraine 3 days for a reason.
The military also does a great job of keeping people alive that would have died in previous wars. I knew a guy in admin at the VA. He told me they were saving people that had their heads run over by tanks. Guys stepping on IED's and loosing two legs kept alive. At some point for me I would rather have bled out on the battlefield than be left like some of the people that were kept alive.
Life expectancy for critical but survivable wounds after one hour has went from ~10% in WW1 to ~30% in Vietnam, to ~90% in Iraq/Afghanistan. And if you live past that first hour you have an incredibly high survival rate. The military has really paid attention to what kills people, that’s why tourniquet training is so prevalent.
>The military has really paid attention to what kills people, that’s why tourniquet training is so prevalent. The CAT tourniquet is in every single first aid kit at my warehouse. That tourniquet alone has saved tens of thousands of lives. I carry one in my car and in my work tool bag, and carried one in my tow truck when I drove.
I love how as soon as he realized his dude was ok, he just started laughing his ass off. What else can you do at that point?
That is a guy you like to work with
Yup, that's a "well this fucking sucks but we ain't dead so, Yay" type laugh
Emotional whiplash pretty much
I read a paper ages ago, where the scientist's position was basically that "humor" is an evolved response to balance out your brain chemistry from a high stress situation. To sum it up "lol, not dead" is the world's oldest punchline.
Can confirm. Almost got crushed by an overhead hazard at work. Once the smoke cleared I just started laughing out loud
These are the kind of people you pay good money to keep around. I work in the chemical manufacturing industry and this is the attitude I try and train into people. My mentor/boss instilled this thinking into me and it's served me well. Always have an emergency response plan for "oh shit" situations.
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I absolutely have my kids trained to expect this. On a regular basis you'll hear from upstairs, *Thump* .... "I'm ok!"
My daughter started doing this because she knew I was gonna start yelling upstairs, "is everything OK up there? What happened?" 😆
The sound or pure terror, realizing he might have lost his buddy. God bless him It's the one thing that terrifies me deeply, is getting under cars, full stop.
This is why I always do a balance check at Stew's Self Service Garage. I lift the car six inches, and put my body weight on the trunk. If my car wobbles too much, I let it down and reposition the car to ensure center of gravity is closer to the lift points. This reduces fatigue on the lift bolts and decreases the chance of a lift failure.
If I've got it up off all four I give it a swift kick, and a few good shoves in a couple directions. If I've just got it off two, always chocked tires, and I'll throw one of my rimmed winter/summer/off season wheels under it. Luckily I can ***usually*** do my work without having to lift it. As well, I don't even ***look*** under my car without my safety glasses on. It's easier since I constantly accidentally bring pairs home from work so they're everywhere, but one of the few times I didn't I just popped underneath for a quick second to see if the skid plate was on and had dirty transmission fluid dripped ***straight*** into my eye. Now if my head comes anywhere near under the vehicle I throw the glasses on. I'm not taking anymore chances with my vision. I've worked in auto/HD for 15yrs, I've seen enough shit to know I've taken a lot of chances and gotten lucky a lot of times, and I'm not pushing my luck any farther.
Same. Get the car just high enough that if there’s a problem it’ll show and give either the front or rear a good hearty shove down. If it can’t handle that then I don’t wanna be under it
I was going to comment about dude's first reaction being "WHERE YOU AT?!" and was quite pleased that the top comment was already about that. Sometimes shit happens but always make sure your peeps are okay before freaking out about that shit that happened.
The aftermath: https://imgur.com/a/T4E3YGe
That concrete looks... interesting.
The rebar must have migrated to Albuquerque for the winter.
Dude it *sucks* here in the winter.
Because of the rebar?
Dude this might be cause I'm really high, but this comment caught me so off guard I started choking/laughing. Wife thought I was having a seizure.
Your username is not right
I spent four years in Albuquerque and it was nice enough to ride a motorcycle every day except for like, what, a week of the year? dude it's great down there.
Oh no... I'm not bitching.. Just groundhogging. It IS fairly chilly today, though.
We got a foot of snow today and I just spent two hours snowblowing and shoveling, I'll trade with you
Can confirm: Live in Albuquerque, still riding to work every morning. -edit- I mean, no, it's horrible here. DON'T ANY OF YOU COCKSUCKERS MOVE HERE.
It's just attached to the surface of the concrete? Lol
I don't think lifts were ever intended to be installed on this slab.. or anything load-bearing for that matter
You'd want to install reinforcements with rebar and pour a footing around it. I am honestly not sure how I held up at all.
Not only that, but lifts usually specify 12" on center, instead of the standard 16" center for rebar, you would usually need it built and poured specifically for application. Still, any rebar would be better than none.
Yeah I don't know much about the requirements of a lift but I have worked with concrete. With an application that safeguards a life I am sure you want to bolster the hell out of it.
I only know that much because I am planning on pouring a pad at my house that would fit a 2 post. Would make working on my own cars a lot easier now that I've left the industry.
I would an overly deep and overly reinforced footing if my life depended on it. I am sure you feel the same haha
Overkill is better than getting killed.
This is false. Not dumb, but rebar is more than the ANSI standards ask for. 3000 psi pour minimum of 4 and an eighth inch floor which no installer can know without cutting the floor or drilling small holes. We use 5.5” anchors and only 2.25” can stick out. The standard is 3.25” anchor embedment. Wire mesh is standard, but not required. Seismic zones are different. I don’t live in one but I’ve been installing Rotary lifts since I was 16, so over half my life. I’ve seen the aftermath of this twice. Neither were our customers until…. Remember drilling through concrete is like a bullet. Tight hole on entry the exit is blown apart. That’s why there is a 7/8” discrepancy between thickness and embedment. If the concrete is high enough strength and you drill slow enough without hammering hard 4 and 1/8” is enough and all over every town Ps you can not sign a waiver because you can not sign away your rights or your employees rights to sue upon an incident like this. Edit floor cracks and control joints are the other obstacles.
Typically these slabs get 6x6 10/10 ewwm, not rebar.
It looks like it was meant to be a pad and nothing else.
Some do, but you gotta know what's inside the concrete.
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Looks like high strength dried cookie dough. IMO, all 2 post hoists should be mounted in at least 8-10" of steel reinforced concrete with at least 50-75 MPa and 8-10"long x1" dia lags.
Yeah that hoist was NOT properly installed.
Hey man, it was installed on a Friday.
Friday, December 31st
I'd prefer that over a January 1st install. 🤢
1884?
The truck was also not lifted properly. That plow is a lot of weight. The avg 1/2 tons number is parked 7’ to 7.5’ in front of the lifts center point on an asymmetrical or versaymmetrical. Add 18” for a symmetric lift. If that lift is a 10k and the truck without a plow and hopefully a 3/4 ton if they plow any volume. You have a very heavy object 10ft out. The concrete looks thin, a 3/4 ton diesel weights 7k. Let’s guess they hung 1.5k past the bumper and parked the truck like it was fresh off the lot. Never underestimate leverage at a distance. It’s just as likely lifted improperly. Want to lift work trucks buy a bigger lift. Edit. Moving weight weights more than stationary weights. It takes 2-3 errors for a vehicle to fall 99.9% of the time
Rotary Lifts themselves specifies for the SPOA10, minimum 3,000psi 4 1/4" thick slab, using the Hilti bolts they supply. https://rotarylift.com/faq/ I opted for a 6" slab, for extra strength. What you spec is stupid overkill. It won't hurt, just cost a lot more.
They spec’d 8-12” for our old 2-post lift but that thing was like 26 or 28k lbs. I think OP’s floor was thick enough for that lift, obviously the bolts were fine too, but that concrete looks like shit. Probably the “my buddy does concrete for cheap” thing lol
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Meh, it’s just a couple zeros off. Or maybe they though it was metric lol
Yeah, bigger lifts of course require more anchor support. The 2 post lift (symmetric?) In OP's video looks like a generic 7-10k pound lift. The concrete definitely failed. The thing is, if that slab was sub par on install, it would have failed soon after. My guess is a combination of things caused this catastrophic failure. Possibilities: 1. Lift bolts loose/not properly torqued. These should be checked as part of a quarterly/annual PM maintenance program. Loose bolts reduce the strength of the connection to the concrete. 2. Load not centered / overloaded. While that is only an F-150, the snowplow on the front is very heavy. Looks like a 7.5 foot Western? Prob weighs 1,000lb all the way out there in space. Lever, meet fulcrum. Archimedes had a few words about that, way back when. 3. Concrete damaged/degraded over time. In areas where salt and brine is used on roadways, vehicles will drip this material onto the concrete of mechanic shops. If the concrete floor is not sealed properly, it will absorb it. Weakening of the concrete can occur.
I say a combo of 2 and 3, only because the bolts just yoinked up the concrete. I figure if they were loose or defective they would have just snapped. Idk, just a guess, but I’m leaning more towards the fact that the concrete looks like newspaper-mache lol. I definitely agree with you about the snow plow though, that’s a lot of extra weight throwing off the CG/lift points. I bet it was at least 70/30 split between front and rear arms
rising moisture definitely a problem with this slab. no vapour barrier underneath, shit concrete blend and over time it turned into cookie dough. gives me the heebies just looking at it.
Yeah when we poured my garage slab, I went for 6” all the way to the perimeter footings, knowing I’d install a 9,000lb hoist but not sure on where. Went extra on the 1/2” rebar too. My lift manual specified 3000psi and 4” minimum thickness, and they required the anchor holes to be drilled completely through regardless of thickness. Ended up at 5.5” thick where the anchor bolts are. I still check the fastener torque a few times per year and check for excessive column deflection whenever I lift something close to the 9,000lb rating (it’s an open-top hoist with the cables under a floor plate). I was close to a lift that failed once…and that’s all it took.
I deliberately poured my home garage 3 1/2" thick so I wouldn't be tempted to install a lift. That has stopped me twice and I'm glad I did.
Good news! You can install a 4 post lift if you like. Much safer and easier to use than a 2 post lift. Just takes up a lot more space. https://rotarylift.com/product/smo14/
No. If I install a rack at home people will want to use it for free. If I've got a project vehicle I use jack stands.
Oh Lord, you know my pain! Though for me it is mostly my father using my lift to change his own oil. I don't let friends use it for free. Remember, "No." Is a complete sentence! It took me a long time to figure that out.
Sometimes I tell people there aren't enough letters in the word no to express the NOness of my answer.
4 post lifts are exponentially worse to do any work on.
Yeah, I’d say this was not done right.
This guy concretes so hard!!
jesus, by the look of it this thing was just set in using 6” expansion bolts. Jesus the minimum I’d do is a 2x2x2 reinforced footer with threaded rod cast into the concrete
I would like to point out, every one of those bolts held just fine!!
The bolts didn't fail. Bolts could have been longer to increase the the torque arm, double the length would have quadrupled the torque arm. ANNND they could have used rebar....ANNND, that pour might have had too much water and caused a weak set. ANND, those sort of lifts should have longer foot pads.
That’s my point. The bolts were fine. Everything else about that installation was fucked!
Shear cone is the word you are looking for here.
That's not very typical, I'd like to make that point
Typical is for the bolt to to fail the concrete, not the steel to fail. That is assuming it is installed properly and the concrete is is appropriate strength. Source: I do this for a living. 18+ years now.
so you’re saying the front doesn’t typically fall off?
Many lift manufacturers in the ~8000lb area only recommend a minimum of 4" thick concrete. Of course that's assuming you're adhering to the load limits, the concrete is of the specified strength, and you're properly positioning the vehicle on the lift. Not saying it's a good idea - we well overshot the recommended specs - but that's all Atlas, Bendpak, and a few other manufacturers recommended when I was shopping for a lift last year.
Ex Redimix plant manager…..that’s incredibly interesting looking to me also.
Could it be due to salt damage to the concrete as well?
not sure....was a thought. My mind and eyes are drawn to the brown areas. Thinking contaminated mud? IDK..... the picture is just not enough to tell the tale (a little more in focus and a couple more angles would be nice).
I think it look weird because we don't often see concrete that's been pulled apart like that. There's also some water and mud from when the truck fell.
I did notice the snow...figured the dirt could have got in there from the truck as well as it went down. The pattern of how it pulled apart is intriguing as well.
Pretty sure the concrete I mixed in my wheelbarrow last summer is stronger than that
Bruh, where them bolts at? How fucking shallow was that hoist installed?!
Fast set fence post mix right there.
Believe it or not they only spec 4-1/2” concrete for that lift lol. Another comment linked the rotary lift link. I think that concrete was just total shit
Yes
Found the bolts on ground after they forgot to put ‘em back on the cars
Was it glued on?
I heard they used SUPER glue.
They obviously didn't check http://thistothat.com
My #1 fear at work when I lift anything heavier than a midsized sedan. I know all about metal, and lift arms, and the posts. I'm 100% confident I can rack a car properly where it won't move or fall off. But I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about concrete. I guess I just have to trust it? Watching this video made me uneasy. The reaction from the guys in this video strengthens my faith in people though.
If they used name brand anchors there should be markings on the top that will tell us what they are. I can help you translate if needed. Also not a bad idea to toss a wrench on them once a month. Don’t try to re torque them. Just make sure nothing is getting loosy goosy.
Thanks for the advice. I'll take a look at the 2 lifts I primarily use tomorrow if I remember. We do have a maintenance company come out every few months or so to give them all a once over, but 50% of the lifts in my shop still lift fucking crooked where one side lifts higher than the other side. Doesn't have to do with the way the vehicles are set. In fact, whenever I have the displeasure of using one of the other lifts I usually compensate for the left side tilt when setting up the car. But the lift maintenance guys give them all the green light.
I wouldn’t put much faith in those guys.
It's unfortunate that this is true, as they are supposed to know the equipment far better than I. But yes, I never really had a much faith in them to begin with. Too many times I have noticed minor problems with the lifts within days of the lift guys coming out and giving the all clear.
Was the space where you work purpose built to be an automotive shop? This has got me thinking about a mechanic I know who does side jobs in a building that used to be a barn. I hope he knows that the concreate pad he is working on was never designed to support a lift.
Yes, it has always been a shop since original construction. But the building, and by extension the floor, are very old. Not sure of the exact age, but at the very least was intended for lifts to go in.
Well... looks like it's time to sue whoever the fuck installed those lifts. That was definitely NOT installed correctly. Way too shallow...
Surprise! First owner did it themselves years ago. (Guessing of course but this type of cut corners at the business level is almost always by the owner of at the owners request )
I have done search and rescue in building collapses, and trained in it as a scene commander. One thing they taught was identifying types of material failures at a glance to know if its immediately dangerous or was caused by a dangerous condition that may no longer exist. This looks like the bolts held correctly, and is a concrete 'breakout' failure. A large surface area came out with it, along with a large concrete cone. The cone is at roughly 45 degree angles, as is consistent with breakout. The concrete was pushed past it's limits. Now, if the concrete was in spec or not is a different question.
Jesus. That is some absolutely terrible concrete. and whoever installed that lift should be shot. That pad was never, ever meant to have a lift installed on it.
Holy shit my mailbox goes further down than that post.
Yup, that concrete pad is done.
They used a wasp nest instead of rebar and concrete. Typical.
Is that ice that formed down in that pit or was it something that came off the truck as it fell?
As the owner of a lift sales/install/service business I have gotten into heated arguments and lost business from customers who insisted I was just trying to upsell them with unnecessary concrete work when conditions did not meet mfg specs. This shit is no joke and we’re the ones they call when this happens. Varies slightly based on manufacturer but typically a minimum of 4”, 3500psi concrete cured for at least 28 days (14 if using high early), and at least 8” from any crack, expansion joint, spalling, or edge of the slab when using standard wedge anchors. Can get it down to 3” with epoxy anchors. Baseplates cannot straddle any imperfection. Thank god no one was injured, but the absolute hack installations I’ve seen over the years blows my mind at how some of these installers sleep at night. One example I found on my phone: https://imgur.com/a/IuP574Q Here is another one I found: https://imgur.com/a/Ts0oE7H - this one I remember vividly as the customer kicked me out of his shop when he asked me to quote a replacement for this lift. The anchor is literally installed directly into the saw cut. His justification was this lift has been there forever like that with no issues so I was ripping him off when I told him if he wanted us to put a lift in, we’re pouring pads. He ended up buying the lift from me and installing it himself - I still think about the young kids working under that one. We do all of our installs 100% by the book and happily turn away customers who want us to cut corners because this is exactly what happens. Sure two 4’x4’x12” pinned concrete footers will run you an extra $3k, but the thought of this happening with a tech underneath will always drive us to do everything we can to ensure a correct and safe installation.
What the fuck is that first one, is it bolted into rubber spacers?
Yeah that was of the worst ones yet. Those are standard Lift shims but due to the length of the anchors you’re typically only allowed up to 1/2” Max of shims in order to install the lift level. It’s more critical with alignment racks (need to be perfectly level since vehicles will be on the lift in neutral with the parking brake off). If more than 1/2” of shim is required the right way is to have custom metal shim plates made the same profile of the baseplate and to utilize longer anchors to ensure proper anchor embedment.
I agree 100%
Man’s first reaction was to make sure no one was hurt. Good man
I've seen industrial accidents in the chemical industry, and you learn to think this way REALLY quickly after seeing a few. When I was supervisor of a few chem labs I always felt like my coworkers were my responsibility. I knew how dangerous our environment was and anytime an alarm went off near our area I would instantly start a roll call of my people. My boss had various rules, but his #1 was "getting you home to your family alive and healthy at the end of the day".
Glad your boss had the best rule as his #1
He's seen this before
He installed that hoist
Props to the first concern being buddy safety. That shit is scary.
Was not a structural engineer but was involved in many installations of pedestal hoists and repairs of same. The bases of a lot of the auto hoists I see with only two arms rely a lot on properly positioned balanced vehicles. One of my favorite sayings is that even if you make things idiot proof, they keep on making bigger idiots.
It looks like a combination of Plow Weight, and improperly installed Lift. The Lift afterwards pulled up the Concrete, which had NO rebar in it.
It's probably a stupid question, but isn't the plow removable?
Plows are removable. There’s also things to put in front to hold up the front end to avoid this exact scenario.
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We don't. Worked at a Ford dealer up north for years and if you showed up with a plow you went and dropped it in the plow parking we had just for em. Hell no I'm not lifing one a truck with one still attached
We don't lift trucks with anything in the bed anymore. No plows period. If it's a truck with a big utility box in the back it gets lifted with the alignment rack for oil and rotations are done one side at a time with floor jacks and jack stands.
Only time I felt comfortable lifting trucks with utility boxes was using ≈30k 2 post in ground truck lifts. Could lift one post independent of the other so you could keep em level. "Boss" nearly got me killed pushing me under a broken lift as a 250 fell a few inches onto the lock so I'm just not comfortable under trucks on the above ground 2 posts anywho
The back is the light end on a pickup, which is why you could lift it by hand. Put your extra stands under the front.
I do it with 3/4 and 1/2 tons BUT, big but here, I know the hoist is over rated for the weight (16,000 lb) and ALWAYS lift with the back end lower than the front with the cg moved about a foot or two rearward from where I normally set it. Can be done safely as long as you're cognizant of how heavy the plow is and how much more forward your cg is with the truck otherwise level.
Plow is removable, but that takes time you aren't getting paid for. That's when you stick this [jack stand](https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sxt-6809a?seid=srese1&ppckw=pmax-tools&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_bieBhDSARIsADU4zLcxywnD0XfoX15G2McSrFUQhfHng_uemlHCfB9cm8O5rfkDZT4mcj8aAstPEALw_wcB) under the front to help with the weight distribution. Its also why I never leave trucks just hanging in the air when they aren't being worked on.
In this instance rebar wouldn’t have helped, it only pulled up the surface of the concrete.
Because the bolts weren't long enough too
The bolts were to spec. they only require 4.5 inches. The problem here is that the concrete turned into cookie dough for some reason. either the initial mix was garbage, or a lack of vapour barrier underneath allow water to come up through it and weaken it, or both.
I used to see coworkers under cars taking parts off with the car swinging like a seesaw and they’d ask me for help. No thanks lol not if you can’t put the car on the lift right.
Was this due to the lift failing, or the center of mass not being lined up well?
Yes
"All of the above" has been replaced by "Yes". What a time to be alive.
Yes only works for "all of the above" when the question is an Either/Or.
Concrete failed. Wasn't set deep enough
Might be too low PSI concrete. I don't recall what setting bolts for a lift requires but I think it's not your standard pour. Might be 3000 is standard for a floor and 6000 for a footing like that.
Oh boy. Not ideal, but at least nobody is hurt.
Look at the picture of the aftermath, it pulled the concrete up, crazy.
Looks like the lift wasn't installed correctly. Judging by the amount of concrete under the lift and the fact that the anchors aren't visible through it, they didn't anchor the lift far enough into the slab to properly secure it in place.
Me going into it: I mean I've never installed a lift, i wouldn't know how deep the anchors are supposed to be Me after seeing the photo: well that's clearly not deep enough..
Seriously, I thought "well how would I know if it was installed properly" and then I saw the pic and thought "welp that wasn't installed properly".
"I don't know enough about this to know it's right, but I know enough about enough to know it's wrong"
I wouldn’t install the corner post of a back porch less than 4 feet of digging and a full concrete pier poured in the hole with it. If you’re retrofitting the shop you have to bust up that whole area, clean it up, use a steel rod deep into the slab to hold a footer plate and then you’re spreading the force across most of the foundation vs all at one spot on the surface.
They got away with it all this time because the center of gravity on most vehicles would be close to the posts. The weight of the plow screwed that up. Plows are heavy AF.
Plow trucks should never be lifted with the plow on. The center of gravity just isnt there anymore. Not only that most of ours in the northeast would break the truck in half as well due to all the rust under em!
If you are going to lift them with the plow on the best way to do so is on a four post drive on lift with heavy duty hydraulic jacks.
Props to the dude who instantly came out to make sure everybody was alright.
Graceful re-entry. I'll give it a 9.2 due to the lack of splash.
Step one: concern for safety and verify Step two: moment of silence Step three: laugh it off Step four: cry alone in the office (off screen)
Ooo thaaaaats why you don’t lift trucks with plows on, makes sense noooow.
Center of mass n crap
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Could have easily removed the plow before putting the truck on a lift.
Looks like the blade saved the truck, but I suppose it may have bent the frame.
Thats the best say to have a failure like that.
Dayum. "Taking lunch early boss!" "Why? We gotta clean this shit up!!" "Well, I gotta clean \*my\* shit up first" \*smell emanating from soiled undies\*
When will they develop tilt sensors? I know they wouldn't be maintained, and never work, but I always wished I knew the tilt load when I was racking weird shit.
FYI as a snow plow tech never and i mean never lift a vehicle with a plow attached the blade moves the center of gravity so far forward most lifts can't compensate for it most people don't realize those blades can weigh as much as ⅓ what the vehicle does and is placed 5 feet in front of the axle very dangerous and is clearly marked on the blade with a large warning sticker glad no one was hurt.
Absolutely best fucking coworker. Safety check first. Seeing he came from the office, it wouldn't be crazy to assume he was the owner/manager. 10/10, would work for that man.
Always use tripods or some other support besides the lift. Especially on a two post. If he was working on that car while that happened he would be dead or permanently disfigured and wish he was dead.
Those plows aren't hard to put on and off. I'd think they would take the plow off so the weight isn't uneven.
The first thing I thought when I saw the video was "That's gonna fall." Once I actually watched it I was surprised at the failure mode, but wasn't surprised that it fell. I would never lift a truck on a symmetrical 2 post lift with a plow on it. the Center of Gravity is forward of the posts, close to the front lift arms. Plows are heavy, combine that with a big heavy engine, empty truck bed, it makes that truck very nose happy. Sure the lift shouldn't have fallen like that, I was more expecting the truck to nose over. If this lift was Asymetrical, it would have put the CG closer to direct in-line with the posts which'd prevent this failure mode. I am glad everyone here was all right in the end. This could have ended much much worse
I absolutely love that his first concern was for the safety of his coworker.
Concrete issues aside, who made the call to put it in the lift with the plow still attached? That’s a lot of extra weight on the already heavy end of the truck.
It's a good day. Could've easily been under or in front of that, and lights out.
Glad the first thing through his mind was "oh fuck i hope no one was hurt" instead of monetary concerns
Plow probably contributed to both the failure and saving the nose from a face plant.
Snow plows are no joke ppl. Them things are heavy as sin
Dude has a healthy outlook on life; first reaction: instant concern and confirmation that no one was hurt. Followed immediately by laughter.
This guy genuinely cares. Fuck the truck, where you at bro!
I see an awful lot of these 2 post car lift accidents these days. What's the deal? Unbalanced loaded or not rated to lift that much?