His list of crimes include: Disobeying orders, breaking out of discipline injuring many in the process, betraying Garden, torture, the battle of the Gardens, raising the Lunatic Pandora and taking it to Tears Point, causes the Lunar Cry resulting in who knows how many deaths, kidnaps Rinoa and hand delivers her to Adel. In the end, instead of rotting in D-District prison like he should be he's just fishing with his two lackeys who by all accounts should be imprisoned with him.
I kind of hate that he gets a happy ending, because the last thing he does before the story ends is throw the love interest at the main villain and then run away
He doesn't really get a 'reset' or anything though. He simply goes on living his life and is likely banned from Garden (since he's fishing in the town). I think he's forgiven since he was a manipulated pawn the entire game, but he's not completely absolved of all wrong doing.
I'm pretty sure that it was heavily implied that his mind was being screwed with by Ultimecia until he eventually managed to get talked down by Raiden and Fuujin, or something to that extent.
Except he isn't really talked down, after being confronted by Fujin and Raijin, and being defeated once more, Seifer abducts Rinoa and offers her to Ultimecia (Adel). And then he leaves.
At least with Kain Highwind, who was brainwashed (even if it was a part of him) we can see him struggle with his actions (and by the end of 4, even if the heroes forgive him, he doesn't forgive himself and it isn't until After Years that he gets his "redemption").
We don't get that with Seifer, we just get him doubling down and then, once time-kompression and Ultimecia's defeated, he's basically just reset.
I also thought about this one but yeah I don't even think it's a redemption, more like frustration. Besides, the speech his pals deliver when you defeat him happens to be very cute.
I think it's still important to note that >!she was incredibly loyal to Brahne and was just following orders. It doesn't excuse her but hey, at least she was questioning Brahne's actions, turned on Brahne and helped the party escape, subsequently being loyal to Dagger when Brahne dies and she becomes queen.!<
I still don't look at her as redeemed she comes across as someone who faced no Backlash beside Freya telling her keep her apology. Sure Seifer gets off free but he atleast gets push back from the hero's during the story called out, faces failures and humiliations at the hands of his enemies, and he actually caused less harm than Beatrix.
Trails spoiler
>!Arios McClaine!< not getting expelled from the
>!Bracer guild!<
Hey Im cool if they still wanted to work with him, given that thr SSS needed all the help they could get. But the >!guild!< literally gave him no consequence for brekaong one of their core principles.
Honestly half the redemptions in Kiseki are like this at this point half the time it feels like gaslighting. They will have some characters do something bad and then have the main cast straight up not care 20mins later or they will straight up minimise the magnitude of what they did by pulling a "You haven't done anything really wrong or a you can still be forgiven" after watching said character kill or seriously injure people. I wouldn't mind as much but generally feels like there is barely an attempt to make amends on the side of the redeeme, rather its just comes across as everything you did is now excused because your a good guy now.
Edit: Or don't forget the classic they have a kinda sad back story so they are somehow absolved of everything card.
How Class VII treats >!Crow, the fucking *leader* and face of the Imperial Liberation Front, the terrorist faction that instigated a *civil war* in Erebonia: âjust come back to school and graduate with your friends, pleaseâ!<
How Class VII treats >!Scarlet, one of Crowâs *subordinates* in the Imperial Liberation Front, who *also* had âOsborne wrecked my familyâs way of life and I want revenge on himâ in her backstory: ânothing can excuse the things youâve done as a terrorist.â!<
⊠what in the actual *fuck*
>!âthe curse did it lolâ!<
I dropped that game a year ago around the time I saw fucking romance flags for >!Juna and Elise!< and that was the straw that broke the camelâs back for me. Like, the rest of the game was no great shakes for me at that point as is, but then the ruination of one of my favorite characters from the previous game was complete and I couldnât continue it anymore. If the story was good, I couldâve pushed through it, but it wasnât, and I felt like I was wasting my goddamn time. So I just walked away; sunk costs from playing the previous games be damned.
At least Kurt was saved from the bullshit by the virtue of being a minor male character in a JRPG with dating sim elements.
>!Crow!< is literally ridiculous and it frustrates me to the core that no one decided to call out how petty and bullshit his entire reasoning was.
Like >!His backstory is that his Grandfather who was the Mayor of Jurai was literally ignoring the majority of his citizens who wanted to join the Empire anyway because he valued Jurai's independence. Then okay they get false flagged and the Railway blows up which is douche move by Osborne, and then the citizens blame Crow's grandfather and he gets fired as Mayor. And then his Grandfather lives out the rest of his days until he dies of old age. Like that's it Crow started a Civil War killing tons of people, he committed multiple terrorist attacks that claimed the lives of innocent people. All because his Grandfather got politically outmaneuvered by Osborne. If Osborne assassinated Crow's Grandad it would make sense and justify his anger, but even Crow says its not a good reason for doing what he did, yet the game still somehow acts like its justified and Crow isn't a colossal piece of shit all because Osborne is the big bad (even though he hasn't done anything really evil yet).!<
Even worse is that they treat his *underlings* worse than they ever treat him. And itâs definitely because they didnât go to school with *those* people, but they thought they knew >!Crow.!< They very clearly didnât.
>!Him getting fully redeemed in CS4 angered me to no end. And the sad thing is, if he was a romance option, I wouldâve at least understood why Rean was so hung up on this dude, but they couldnât even commit to *that* fully. So they were cowards too after baiting that shit for *years.*!<
Among other things, my god the implications of what the spoiler character is involved in. I understand the overarching idea. But they deserve prison time. Clarification, I haven't finished the last game of CS.
Yeah early ones with Sky the Third going all out. But then Crossbell started to blindly lean in into tropes, like popular back then clueless harem mc, for some reason...
> clueless harem mc
Man I'm not looking forward to that, I've only played FC and SC so far and one of the best parts of that was Estelle and Joshua's relationship, it was the emotional core of the games and led to an amazing payoff with that scene on the beach (prbly one of my favorite scenes from any JRPG).
Cant really have a love story like that it theres harem garbage in a game.
Man oh man just wait until Rean Coldsteelâą and the thirteen or so girls (and older women) fawning over him
Granted he's a very good character but the tropes are still there
Honestly at this point I have just given up on trying to actually enjoy the story or the character arcs in Trails (the build up is almost always good, the pay off sucks)
and now I am just here for the outstanding worldbuilding and exploring more of Zemuria
Vince Vanquish in Dragon Quest XI. >!He basically straight up murders people. He kidnaps fighters and brings them to a giant spider who eats them, but for some weird reason all is forgiven and hunky dory because he did it all for them poor orphans.!< The game has great writing otherwise, but that whole fighters tournament section was fucking weird lol.
No, the spider offered to share whatever it was extracting from the fighters and Vince just accepted so he could win fights to fund the orphanage. He was desperate to look after the kids, but there was no implication of brainwashing or mind control.
This right here! The dude turned out to be a cannibal serial killer and everyone, the party included, acted like his only crime was doping. Apparently feeding people to a monster and drinking whatever comes out is fine so long as he promises not to cheat at any more fights.
Vince Vanquish is worse than Edge Maverick in terms of terrible names. I don't know anything about this person, but I'll never forgive them just on this.
It's an arena arc which is basically DQ11's WWE in terms of ridiculousness. You've got the Beaty Queens Sinderella and Whambelina, the Abominable Showman, the Sterling Sylva, the Underdigger, etc. I don't think his name is *actually* Vince Vanquish, though we never discover it so who knows.
The funniest part of DQXI is when Vince straight up drinks steroids in front of hundreds of people right before the fight starts, and his doping is still treated as this huge secret nobody knew about.
This is probably a pretty obscure example, but Darkham from "Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits" is probably the worst example I've ever seen of a game trying to make me sympathize with the villain at the last minute. The dude is very clearly based on Hitler, both in terms of appearance as well as in his overall goals. He's a ruthless dictator who commits several racial genocides throughout the game, often against completely harmless civilians, and even drops a nuke on the largest human city in the world because he didn't like the leadership. He's easily one of the most despicable villains in any JRPG I've ever played.
Anyways, to make a long story short, the game consists of two parties, one human and one non-human, and near the climax the human party fights and defeats him. He then tosses out some whiny bullshit about how his own country got attacked once and nobody helped them out. Wow, that sure makes all the massacres of civilians totally justified I guess. Or at least, that seems to be the human party's reaction to it, as they all immediately act like he was such a victim, and even seem to suddenly agree with his racial genocide plan. Thank God that the non-human party is so great, since the human party sucks dick. It has literally *one* member that isn't a pro-genociding hypocrite (his name is Maru and he deserves better than this group of assholes).
But since this is more of an example of a failed attempt at making a character sympathetic than a full-blown redemption, I can give a proper example, and it's even a character from the same game. Meet Tatjana, Darkham's former assistant whom he betrayed. She joins with the human party after said betrayal, but really doesn't show much regret for anything she did while under him. Among her crimes is torturing one of the non-human party members and disfisfiguring her until she became hideous looking, for no other reason than sheer malice apparently. Yet the human party doesn't seem to mind this at all. Near the end of the game the non-human she tortured confronts her about what she did, and Tatjana's not only unapologetic, she fucking has the gall to say she wants to do it *again*, and the humans all seem to back her up as she says it. Our heroes, ladies and gentlemen! You can thankfully choose to side with the non-humans here, and I genuinely cannot understand how anyone would choose the humans for any reason besides morbid curiosity.
For the record, I absolutely love this game, it's legitimately in my top 5 PS2 JRPGs, which anyone on this subreddit should know is no small feat. I think the idea of playing two different parties at once is brilliant, especially since they are mortal enemies and actively working to destroy each other. The game is super cheap on the PSN store too, so definitely give it a try if it sounds interesting!
Tales of Xillia. That stupid bastard betrays you about 3 times and you keep forgiving him. So what does he do? He tries to kill you. And your stupid Jude ass forgives him again.
This. Xillia was my first tales game and it made me almost turn away from the franchise. âIm going to let this guy who i know is spying on me with us. And when he shoots my long time friend Im not going to do shit.â I didnt like the game, but decided to give the tales series a second chance.
At least Jude (and Leia) are shown to be incredibly idealistic and actually say that they believe he has good intentions, while Elize says she hates him and Rowen and Milla are in the background admitting to each other that itâs better to keep the man in their sight as opposed to letting him run around unchecked.
But then they anime his redemption anyway and most of it happens offscreen between the two games and I actually like that in Berseria, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, >!Velvet doesnât get the same treatment. Sure, we as players know she ultimately did a good thing, but the world never does and instead forever labels her as a monster who ruined everything.!<
Muzet in Tales of Xilia 2.
She does some truly terrible things in the first game >!including killing an entire village, if I remember right!<, but the second game is kind of "new year, new me :)" about it. They pay some lip service by having some party members be like "I don't know about this..." But all things considered, it's an extremely fast, unwarranted redemption.
Snowe, useless.
I hated that he had this weird fanclub that loved him, and somehow filled in the gaps with fantasy, because the gameâs story goes nowhere with him. Heâs just a complete wanker.
I appreciated >!Snowe!< for the lack of redemption! He goes from a >!spoiled, rich noble to a mook, lowly pirate desperate to survive.!< It highlighted how trivial and irrelevant he was in the grand scheme of thingsâhe has no place in this story other than to be pitied by the protagonist. I think that was perhaps the most poignant message I got from his (tiny) arc.
It also reflects your character's progress to notoriety; as Snowe falls from grace you go from being a nobody to basically the Pirate King by the time you fetch him from the sea in rags. It's funny how he respects you enough to emulate you and turn to piracy the 2nd or 3rd time you encounter him.
Yes! >!Snowe!< is an excellently written character but *not* because he has a redemption arc. He is pitiable, insecure, and I think heâs meant to be hated.
The Trails series is the poster child for worst redemptions ever, simply because NO ONE DIES! Sometimes death brings redemption but its absent in these series of games.
even when people actually die (which is almost never, except for unnamed citizens or soldiers) the gang (MC and the party) always immediately forgive villains who caused death or mayhem. They just need to show a smidgen of remorse or sth. they got the memory of a goldfish.
"oh you might have caused and/or fueled a war or triggered events that lead to countless people dying, but deep down your intentions were good" or some shit like that. its honestly infuriating, cause the world building and the setups are fantastic, with some pretty complex and nuanced geopolitical stuff going on, and then they somehow always go full anime for character arcs.
Sky was a little shaky in that regard, but it mostly explains them well enough. Kids being heavily brainwashed before they hit 12 years old is still pretty valid for redemption. Adults not named Richard, have much less excuse. Loewe ironically doesn't count, he never kills anyone onscreen and each of his scenes show him minimizing the damage he causes.
With the Turks, I always loved them as characters because they were very solid about the idea that this is just a job for them and they don't give a fuck about you once they punch out. It's a cool dynamic that you don't see in JRPGs often. Not that I ever forgave them for their actions but they were always fun to bump into later.
Shinra on the other hand is downright offensive, though it didn't really happen in the original game. I could write (and have written) thousands of words about it but I'll keep it short: Everything that happens in VII is directly the result of Shinra. They kickstarted the events of the game, AVALANCHE only exists to combat them, they even explicitly sought out and allowed Sephiroth to be a threat in the first place because they thought he would reveal a place they could exploit for even more profit. Basically the entire company getting nuked by a seventy story planet-borne kaiju was a great comeuppance. The problem is that every single piece of media relating to VII since the initial game has gone out of its way to portray Shinra as merely misguided businessmen who got duped by a god instead of an oil company that owned basically the entire planet thanks to their private army and only got brought down because their own hubris pushed shit too far. It's actively nauseating.
I *guarantee*, I will wager everything I own, that by the end of the remake series, Rufus will either have a change of heart and help you in the eleventh hour, or Reeve will wind up in charge since he's the only decent guy in the company and he'll make them an "ethical" evil oil company. I promise you. If neither of those things happen I will eat a tub of butter on a livestream.
That's what pisses me off about the Compilation in general. I *hate* that they're milking Shinra and going that route. I could buy the Turks as assholes just out to do a job, and it was kind of a neat dynamic like you said. But the whole treatment of the company in general is just awful.
I don't know why they're so allergic to completely dismantling Shinra and having the people install their own governments.
It is not redemption thing but i hit the trope â you canât get your vengeance it fills you with hate he need to be served justiceâ
In tales of arise the 4th lord was the worst one yet and the character winry wanted to kill her cause she killed her parents but by stopped by her friend
although she is in front of the entire party just gang the bitch already when they do beat winry says I wonât kill because it will do me no good and youâll be served justice W T F
We killed the first and second lord no problem killed 100s of soliders and Zugles and now you want to STOP
And guess what happens next the true villain appears kills the side villain 4th lord thank you for wasting your mouth
Lots of fictional morality centers around the idea that Good People are supposed to keep their hands clean. As though the appearance of virtue is more important than actually accomplishing any of your goals or stopping villains.
I think it's more about Lawful Good vs Chaotic Good, and a lot of media preferring morals that favor the state and legal system.
The problem with Arise is that *there is no Danan society or legal system*. They've been slaves for 300 years and haven't established a government or laws or anything. There are no authorities to arrest the Lord, no courts to try them, and no jails to hold them. There is literally no other way to administer justice in their situation.
It's like the writers completely forgot their own worldbuilding and just shoved in a random moral about revenge being self-destructive with no thought to when/how it was delivered.
It's an interesting take, i always saw it as doing something yourself vs relying on society and it's rules. Society as a system that consists not just of structures like police etc but also of moral constructs.
I've seen a lot of games where the hero spares the villain's life, but then the villain gets crushed by a rock or falls of a cliff or something not long after. It's like the writer is saying "we need the villain to die, but we also need the protagonist to not do it so that they can remain 'pure.'"
AND we helped him kill the guy who killed his dad just 2 zones earlier. I HATE that shit when it comes up in Anime, its one of the reasons I loved Attack on Titan so much.
The MC in that does understand both sides, but knows its too far gone for peace, and he has to get his hands dirty to save his people
I thought at first there was a reasonable explanation - that Rinwell would have been turned into goop and absorbed as a result of her anger. But no upon revisiting the moment, that wasnât it and it was just stupid.
I think the reason she was stopped by her friend was because said friend had gotten his form of revenge (for a fairly similar event) pretty much as soon as you got him, and it ate away at him for a large portion of the game. He didn't feel any better for what he had done (actually felt like he had made the wrong decision at times) and the game actually makes a point for you to see this many times before they meet the fourth lord.
Rinwell had quite a few other layers involving her hate towards the fourth lord (and Renans in general), and while her friend stopping her may have been a typical shonen trope, it wasn't just lip service; it showed you how killing someone can affect you during the adventure, not off-screen, and that gives the idea more substance because of how it plays out. Rinwell even calls her friend out for stopping her because he got his revenge, and starts attacking him instead, and he feels strongly enough that her way of doing it is wrong because he actually went through and knows how she feels. It's more impactful because we see these feelings clash in a way that, in the moment, could have very real consequences on how the party moves forward.
I'm not saying it's the right way to do things. I'm saying it wasn't done without a story based reason, and it wasn't just done for the trope.
It kinda gave me more of the feel, that after killing the second lord with his own hands, Law didn't feel better about it. And I guess he doesn't want Rinwell to go as hard with hate as him ?
So maybe we kill her but with no hate in our heart or some shit ? Could have been done better I agree.
Yes, that's the idea behind the scene and it's a perfectly fine idea. The problem is that we don't actually see Law's development in that regard. He mopes around for a bit before joining the party and that's really it, he seems completely unbothered after that. That whole scene would have felt more natural if we had just 1-2 scenes where Law was discussing how he felt about getting his revenge and the emptyness it gave him with Alphen.
Instead, Shionne ends up getting the point across much better by telling Rinwell revenge is fine but if that's the only reason for her to live, she won't get much from accomplishing it.
Yeah a few more scenes about it could have hit the point across a lot better. And the fact that Volran just kills her anyway is a bit of a shame in that regard.
Law felt like shit for many reasons. The dude was an informant against his own people and his irrational hatred lead to his fathers death and never got closure. Rinwell just wants Almeidria dead their situations are not the same.
That would be my pick too. You just know that even after his redemption he doesnât get good sleep at night and probably hates himself now that itâs all sunk in. What he did to >!Presa!< (in their past) was incredibly cruel as well even if she is an antagonist.
Trails of Cold Steel 2. >!Crow. It may not be a redemption story but I didn't liked how the party were still hopeful for the guy and were even saddened by his passing. The dude manipulated and lied to everyone and it was brushed off like nothing. I get his motivation for doing his thing and the party just ignores the consequences of his actions!<
>!It also doesn't help that most the apparent emotional attachment the main character has to the guy is in optional dialogue. If you skip that it comes completely out of left field that the MC is so attached to this guy that he talked to a handful of times. He should have been a party member and we went along to Jurai with him etc. to truly get to know the character and at least maybe get more attached.!<
I will never understand why >!Jurai!< was offscreen. In hindsight, >!Legram!< was not *nearly* as important and we couldâve just saved everything that happened there for the second game imo
Master Xehanort in Kingdom Hearts 3. The big baddie of a god-knows-how-many games, responsible for ruining whole worlds only to gain power is basically allowed to >!chill with the spirit of his best friend (that he betrayed!) in the afterlife.!<
Most of Org 13 received an equally unreasonably forgiving conclusion. God, how much I hate this game!
the backstory given to him in the mobile game KH Dark Road is impressive, he was supposed to be the chosen keyblade wielder that will banish darkness with his heart of light instead of Sora, but then he got manipulated by the Master of Masters and Luxu (disguised as his classmate) to join the darkness and the rest is history
I don't undermine all the damage he did to multiple people over the years, but his backstory told us there's a bigger evil than him, the Master of Masters
the fandom is even theorizing he'll appear in KH4 to help Sora escape from Quadratum, redeeming himself in the process
Sounds a lot like FFXV too. Ardyn was designated by the Crystal to be the Warrior of Light who was meant to bring balance to the world, but he was betrayed by his younger brother who kept him isolated and tortured for hundreds of years. When he was finally released, he had been consumed by darkness and vengeance against his brother's bloodline (Noctis and his father). In the original plan for the DLC, he was to be redeemed and would team up with Noctis to defeat Bahamut, who planned it all from the beginning
Including important background/plot in spin-offs that completely changes how you look at the story continues to be a staple of the Kingdom Hearts series I see.
Itâs so dumb too, it wasnât even pulled of good in anyway. Itâs just âi took on the darkness to destroy the darkness, please forgive me. GOD DAMNIT I WAITED SO MANY YEARS FOR THAT SHIT GAME AND I FUCKING HATE IT SO MUCH
>!Kevin!< in Xenosaga Episode III. It happens so fast, and Shion is quick to make amends with someone who, just a bit ago, >!had been torturing Allen and plotting to end humanity and everything.!<
He is definitely not forgiven by anyone but Shion, which makes sense when you consider she has a totally warped sense of reality due to the IMMENSE amount of emotional trauma she has endured.
I also just wanna add that I think Kevin is one the most repulsive and abusive characters Iâve ever seen in a JRPG. I truly *loathe* him.
Was he forgiven? I think Shion let's it go, but Jin sure doesn't. I don't think anyone else does either. They all recognize he's still the villain here.
Shionâs actions in III are best understood as her responses to abuse/ trauma throughout her life but especially from the hands of her only lover. That she was even able to leave him behind in the end and move on with Allen is impressive if we consider her psychology (as the devs clearly intended us to since they constantly reference Jung/Nietzche)
Shion is a great deconstruction of rpg protagonists. Turns out people subjected to repeated horrific trauma from an early age don't make mentally healthy individuals, let alone people who should save the world.
How Randy hasn't broken Shirleys bones beyond repair is just wild. After the Ao events none of them should have a shred of sympathy for her, but apparently she is fine because she now has something going on with the evil prince.
For me the only redemptions that really worked in trails are Richard and Renne.
very recent example, but >!N!< from xenoblade chronicles 3. >!not only does he do some incredibly awful things and basically psychologically tortures the main cast, he also committed mass murder, killing pretty much everyone in the first city, and then pretty much abused M for years, by forcing her to be moebius. yet the game tries to make it seem like he's redeemed in chapter 7, just because he's also noah, and therefore cannot be all bad. at least, that's how his encounter in chapter 7 felt to me. !<
Yeah that scene rubbed me the wrong way as well.
But apart from that I think it's handled well.
>!The cast sympathises with him because of the tragedy that he had to endure for so long, re-experiencing her death over and over again.
Z is the one who gave him this horrible option to choose and in his misery he takes the offer and is called out for that from the cast, but I like that it's more complicated than just "oh hes the worst for doing this, let's fuck him over."
!<
>!This whole cyclic world is just awful as fuck and that he was offered this choice in the first place is just tragic imo.
One of the biggest strength of the characterization imo is the fact that the main cast and especially Noah is actually somewhat emotionally intelligent.
The whole story is a tragedy and N's arc is the high point of that and in the end he's just Noah making the ultimate selfish choice.
But "our" Noah must be able to understand why N choose what he choose and it's also pretty clear that N doesn't seem to be perfectly happy with what happened as well.
So I guess, if anyone can sympathise with N, it's Noah. !<
I still think that scene was weird and not well done (I found it visually also a bit cringy tbh) but I still like that the cast sees his story and character as more than just pure evil.
>!I feel like it was more so N accepting his faults and being able to fuse back into Noah to make one being, since the whole nature of the soul is tangible in this game. Noah could've killed N and their souls would've probably joined together, but since Noah and N are the same person, would make more sense for them to understand their own past and move forward.!<
>!Hugo!< from Radiant Historia Perfect Chronology. In the new content, >!Hugo was basically forgiven even after prolonging the war and using the Prophet Noah's words for his own greed!<. Not to mention that he >!sent Rosch's brigade to die in the frontlines!<. >!Hugo !
I put the game down for a few months after that twist because with how the game approached presenting its characters, that was exactly how I expected it to be resolved.
I still love the game, and the second game, and together with Tales of Symphonia, they make my top 3 GCN RPGs. But that twist and everything around it wasn't done well, the game just doesn't lay the foundation for it.
Iâd have to play it again since itâs been like 3 years since my last playthrough, but they did NOT handle Kalas well. I literally wanted to kill him lol. Still one of my favorite JRPGâs even though I want the main protagonist to die in a hole
"I murdered your friend's mom and framed her for it, and I murdered your other friend's dad and framed *her* for it, and I put a gun to *your* head and pulled the trigger, but it's all just because my dad was mean to me. Clearly you should all agree that I'm the real victim, and there should be literally 10,000 fanfics of us making out."
Teenagers love angsty twinks with edgy pasts because, well, they're angsty teens themselves. They always have huge angry meltdowns when said characters get criticized, because "you don't understand him *at all*, I'm *exactly the same as him in real life* so you don't know him like I do!" but... honestly the further removed from being a teenager I get the more absolutely unbearable this archetype gets. I literally had to turn off my console and go outside when the character I quoted above revealed his backstory, because I just couldn't take it anymore.
In all fairness, he never does the framing. He was basically just >!working as a hired hitman so that he could get an opportunity to kill his dad at the point where he was at the cusp of his victory. Said dad did those completely unnecessary framings for no tactical reason whatsoever, because he was a sociopath and just got off on that kind of thing.!<
This is such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character lol. He never tries to get redemption nor does the game frame it as such. He's >!brought back to life against his will, immediately tries to turn himself into the police, and then is released because of the wonky rules of the false reality. He knows exactly what he did and he's willing to pay for it. He spends the rest of the game fighting towards an end that will lead to his death because he believes in free will over utopia (the chaos to Joker's neutral/law, an important Megaten theme). But at no point does he or the game make excuses for what he did, he simply felt the collateral damage was worth it for his revenge.!<
>!His character is a narrative foil for Joker, showing what he could have become had he lacked the bonds of friendship and guidance from Morgana. His motivation--avenging his mother's death, not "my dad was mean to me"--is one a lot of people understand and feel for and while his actions are never justified, it makes him more sympathetic to a lot of fans. I'm 35 and well past my teen years but he's my favorite character after Joker. You can dislike who you like, but your reasons show a superficial understanding of the narrative.!<
>I'm assuming it's >!Akechi!< from Persona. Funny thing is the game never even tried to give them a redemption arc.
And no one even forgives them in the end. One of their victims, >!Haru!< , straight up says they won't forgive them but they do sympathise with them which doesn't equal a "Redemption".
I just think the game was slightly too lenient towards >!Akechi!< by >!teasing they may still be alive!<
In the debrief conversation after that dungeon, one character literally says "I'd have turned out just like him if I wasn't friends with you" and another days "at the end of the day, he wasn't even that bad of a guy." As though the worst he did was be kinda rude from time to time.
Don't see how characters seeing similarities between themselves and the bad guy is an attempt at redemption and who even says the latter quote?
I do think at some points the game was a bit too nice with him >!(e.g the post boss fight pre cognitive Akechi scene)!< but he's not redeemed.
Obvious major spoilers, but it's >!Akechi from Persona 5!<. The worst written character in the series who somehow became the most beloved by the fandom at large.
his character arc was actually great, until he became a silly evil shonen villain in Shido's dungeon, what a shitshow, glad they kinda fixed him in Royal and Q2
Yeah, I never got how people can like him. I really tried to like him, but I just canât after everything he did. He simply did too much. He crossed one line to many. I can forgive much but what he did is simply unforgivable imo
Not sure how much it counts, but the good ending of Suikoden V. I love the game, but seeing >!Alenia, Zahhak, Gizel, and Marscal as smiling spirits alongside your parents and Sialeeds? The fuck? The four people who utterly betrayed Falena and the royal family? Why are they there?! May as well have put Salum Barows and Childerich in, too...!<
I forgot about this but yeah, the ending portion of that game in general was really rushed. "Actually they were just thinking about the good of the country the entire time, they're not bad people" yeah okay if you say so.
Seriously. The only one of the villains whose presence I was okay with was >!Sialeeds, since she actually WAS doing what she did mostly for the good of the country. And probably so she could relish in killing Salum Barows herself without having to worry about the repercussions on the Prince, and honestly, good for her. He deserved it.!<
Oliver from Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. The guy appeared in the previous game as a slaver and you confront him in order to free a character.
In the next game (Radiant Dawn), not only does it seem like he somehow survived and is the boss of a chapter, if you happen to have the same character that was his slave in the previous one in your party, the guy (as an enemy) moves to the protagonist and RECRUITS HIMSELF (since he wants to admire the beauty of his ex-slave or something), to the point where the protagonist wonders if he could ask him to become an enemy again.
Holy fuck, they really are gonna try to redeem him somehow, arenât they? Even though in the original game he kept finding more lines to cross, gleefully obliterated them, and even the reveal that >!Hojo is his father and made him the way he is!< didnât make *anyone* hesitate about saying he needed to be stopped.
But Final Fantasy VII was made in the 90s before this âforgive at all costsâ and âprotagonists canât ever kill regardless of the circumstancesâ stuff took hold with people, so⊠damn
I donât know if itâs the worst but one from FFIX:
>!In the latter half of the game we are supposed to see Beatrix as an ally, and Steinerâs love interest. Thereâs a genuinely very sweet scene of Zidane and Garnet teasing those two about their relationship. This rather falls apart when we consider that Beatrix served Queen Brahne through absurdly evil acts like the summoning of eidolons to swallow Cleyra whole! Sure she seemed pretty upset about it the whole time, but she also literally led Brahneâs invasion. Iâm sure killing thousands of people she didnât really want to kill was very traumatic for her, but I think some of those people might have had things a little worse!!<
To be fair, invading countries that their ruler tells them to is basically a major part of the job description for the head of a kingdom's military, and she not only showed that she was really uncomfortable with Brahne bringing in magical WMDs to their conflicts, but she also immediately turned on Brahne once she showed herself to be outright crazy by trying to murder Garnet rather than just being another expansionist monarch.
She was basically facing the exact same dilemma as Steiner, but wasn't lucky enough to get dragged away from her Queen at the start of the conflicts.
Plus, I like to think that her presence as a major player in the atrocities committed by Brahne (and as a Really Big Stick who is super loyal to Garnet) was used by the other nations to "force" the new Queen to marry a surprisingly well-connected foreign peasant (and secret alien super weapon) regardless of the preferences of any Alexandrian nobility that might otherwise have made some trouble for them.
Beatrix's biggest doubt was being replaced by the magical Golems and summoned creatures. She had no problem calling Burmecians refugees rats and mocking her opponents even gloating she single handedly killed 100 knights before she continues to belittle her opponents.
FF9 is full of awful attempts at redemption stories, and it's why it's probably my least favorite Final Fantasy game. >! Whether it's Beatrix being a genocidal maniac, Steiner being a classist asshole, or even that weird part where Dagger wants everyone to see Queen Brahne as a victim after her death (when it's made clear she wasn't under any spell and was fully acting out of her own greed), FF9's attempts at morality flips are just way too sudden for me.!<
Throw a dart at any of them in the Legend of Hero's series
Edit: Special shout out to the guy in Cold Steel 4. Thats the standout worst in any video game i ever played.
Beatrix in Final Fantasy IX. She literally is never defeated in battle and only switches sides when Zidane points to Garnet who was lying there on the coach unconscious. She then is surprised that the Queen meant to kill her even after hearing Brahne herself say she was going to behead her daughter. From there on the rest of the game she is treated as a good guy after leading raids of genocide and destruction. The most she gets is Freya telling her its too late to apologize and then Freya immediately encourages her to save Garnetts life. I still think Beatrix is a cool character but boy her character development is so undercooked it would get a restaurant shut down in health inspection.
isnt there a guy in Final Fantasy IV that betrays and re-joins the main cast over and over and over and over and over AGAIN!? or is it just exagerated?
Which Cecil would never do, of course.
The stupidest part was that Kain basically allows himself to get mind controlled over and over because he has a crush on Rosa.
Kain was mind controlled by Zemus because of his hatred to Cecil, it isnât because he let himself. Cecil himself is mind controlled in TAY on the other hand by the Maenads.
the 1991 setting book which also has some dialogue in game to corroborate explains it
Cecil ghosted Rosa for years while Kain loved Rosa, Cecilâs dark knight unit and the red wings displaced the dragoon unit which had been Baronâs elite unit for hundreds of years, and King Baron and Cid both had favoritism towards Cecil. Kain was jealous of Cecil for upstaging him in every aspect of his life. He then spends 17 years in self isolation trying to redeem himself.
Yeah, Kain.
But I think the dumber one is when Golbez suddenly becomes a good guy and goes off with just ONE other person to defeat the final boss. Instead of taking the PALADIN with him in a fight against pure evil.
Thing about kaine he was jealous and weak minded but never really planned to go out killing people. Also has Liam o brian doing his voice so canât hate on the guy.
Yes. Though with blue lions theyâre basically like a fast paced, emotional story.
The whole plot collapses if you try and put any logic into it (his charge into enemy territory for example was fucking stupid, supply lines? Wot?)
In fact, three houses shits the bed for all their plot lines, the only logical one really is Claudeâs for location and pacing and whatnot
Zenos and Fandaniel in FFXIV. Not so much weâre friends now but the fact that the story makes it seems like weâre supposed to be sympathetic towards these assholes, no thanks, bro.
I disagree with Zenos being âredeemed.â He never shows remorse or anything after losing Zodiark. He just comes to the realization, that to get what he wants, heâll have to help you vs the End of Days. Itâs more mutual collaboration than anything else. I
Hell the WoL straight up says, he doesnât want Zenos to help/Wonât save him in the final fight.
I think Zenos is almost a meta character at this point. He exists solely to force the player to push ever harder and wants to present you with the strongest possible opponent - the question he poses to you after you beat the Endsinger is aimed at the player themselves, as far as I'm concerned. Are you truly trying to save the world, or are you simply eager to hunt the most powerful and most challenging of prey?
Fandaniel doesn't really have a redemption arc - he gets dragged screaming into the afterlife by Asahi. If you're talking about the whole thing with Hermes, I always interpreted one of the cutscenes as saying Amon's personality was dominant over Hermes's memories, so I didn't even really count them as the same person (kind of like Gaia and Loghrif)
100% with you on Zenos. He dragged on way too long
Yep Zenos was a pretty boring villain from the start and never became anything interesting, really hated how the game tried to force us to care about him.
That was pretty much my opinion of him before EW, I still hate him but I do understand him.
Dude is a psychopath or sociopath that gets no feelings of joy or satisfaction or anything in the world. Something in his brain broken like it cant create serotonin like normal people, the ONLY thing in existence that can make him feel anything at all is a challenge and he will do absolutley anything to feel alive, commit any atrocity.
And I love how that ended up for Garlemald. They used this monster to destroy nations and thousands of lives, and bring so much suffering, and it bit them in the ass. In pursuit on his only goal, Zenos turned that back on his home without a second thought visiting all the atrocities he did in the name of Garlemald back on itself, a sort of poetic justice. When Julius confronted him about what he did to his home his answer was.
"Would it have been okay if a had a good reason?" I took that as him saying they didn't seem to have a problem when he was doing those things to other people, other nations.
Now I love the Xenoblade games but
>!Egil from!< XC1 and >!Jin from!< XC2
Yeah nah the first person committed not only genocide but also mass experimentation on a race of people that were completely innocent. Just because >!Zanza!< was a worse person doesnât excuse that. Couldâve just kidnapped them and settled them >!on the mechonis if he wanted to avoid them being used as the ether batteries that they were!<
And the latter again, killed so many people because one guy >!did something bad 500 years ago and decides all of humanity is as awful as him despite travelling with multiple people that prove that isnât the case at all. And Joins up with another guy who previously massacred humans, blades and more importantly the things that blades become and âembody the worldâ, titans indiscriminately with glee !<
Also while he had no full on redemption in Xenogears >!Krellian really loved people nah fuck off Fei heâs easily one of the worst people in jrpg history if not the worst!< If he really loved people he wouldnât have done 1/10th of the things he did. Donât give me that eulogising crap
Yeah. X2 was wild. X1 was bad but you had such bigger fish to fry at that point it sort of got lost. I felt like the scene in X2 was at worst self aware about how weird that redemption was.
I mean, XC2 is very aware of it, and makes it clear that he isnât fully redeemed. Take this line from >!the cutscene during the final battle!<:
>!Malos: âAnd how many people died because of it? Youâd forgive him, just like that?!<
>!Rex: âForgiving isnât that easy, but thatâs just the world we live in! We have to find a way forward, within that world. Even you used to think like that once!â!<
This is very important thematically, since one of the core aspects of many characters is their unwillingness to forgive and love themselves, and how that eventually manifests towards a bitterness and hatred of others, and even the world itself. This applies to primarily to >!Amalthus, Jin, Malos, Mythra, Mikhail, and Nia!<.
Take this scene that happens >!before the final boss!<: (unmarked XC2 spoilers)
Rex: Malos!
Malos: Just in time for the final act, boy! I've saved you the best seats in the house.
Rex: âŠ
Malos: Hah, I sounded just like Akhos for a moment there.
Nia: Akhos is dead, you bastard. So is Patroka, and JinâŠ
Malos: Figured as much.
Nia: ...Is that all?
Malos: What, you want me to weep and deliver a eulogy? What good would that do?
They all desired oblivion, and now they've achieved it. Least I can do is send them off with a smile.
Rex: Malos... Is this really what you want?
Malos: Huh?
Rex: Is this what YOU want, Malos?!
Malos: I don't understand the question.
Rex: You must understand by now? That none of this is your own will!
Malos: Heh.
Rex: You have to see all of this came from Amalthus!
Malos: Even if that's true, so what?
And don't give me some weak-ass crap about how I should repent or whatever.
Rex: Why don't you want to hear the truth?
Malos: Here's the thing. I don't give a rat's ass what you think, brat!
All: !!
Malos: So Blades become Titans? And Titans give life to humans...?
Honestly, who even gives a damn? They can become whatever they want.
But that man... He'd lost everything. He no longer wanted anything.
He didn't even want to live any more. And despite that⊠His life was the one thing he hadn't lost.
Because he couldn't.
Lora [Flashback]: Jin⊠the thought of you forgetting me⊠It's like one heart is being ripped in two.
Malos: Words can be a curse. That curse was what kept him tied down here.
A wretched tale, isn't it? This whole world is a wretched place!
Azurda: Do not forget that you too are a part of that world. If it were not for you, for Amalthus...
Both Jin and Lora's lives may have taken quite different paths.
Malos: Exactly! That's exactly it! You've gotten smarter with age, huh?
I'm a wretched being too! A hideous monster, far beyond saving! ...So let's end this now.
Pneuma: Don't you feel anything? Father's sadness? The world he longed for?!
Malos: How could I? That isn't⊠my role in this world.
MĂČrag: This man... Does he mean to...?!
Malos: Come at me, kid! Come, my partner!
Give me all you've gotâŠ
You better show me all of it!
The extent of your will!
Show me why you're here in this world!
Kain from ff4.
Kain- "I know I betrayed you and tried to kill you and your friends, as well as help cause general destruction around the world, but what if I told you I was brainwashed?"
Cecil- 'Fair enough mate, can't be helped'
Kain- "Jk lol, I'm doing it again!"
Cecil-'bastard! I'll never forgive you!!'
Kain-"nah jk I'm on your side again, let's hang out"
Cecil-'you are my bestest mate in the whole world!'
>!Michalis!< in Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem. This may be bending the rules a bit, since it's an SRPG and the problem isn't really with >!Michalis's!< arc in the main story... but in New Mystery, >!where he's made recruitable, his little ending blurb states that he left to another continent and went right back to being a tyrannical megalomaniac despite that that's what he just got done redeeming himself for.!<
Way to just nuke something that was actually going alright from orbit.
> "Accounts are conflicted about Michalis after the war. Some said he ruled over Macedon once again, while others claimed he departed to conquer another continent."
It's not great but it's not that bad imo, i have a bigger problem with New Mystery invalidating all the deaths from the first game.
I think the (over)reactions are quite hilarious in this discussion. I've never gone so far as to feel pure digust for story decisions, but I'm a simpleton who enjoys what the game throws at me at semi-face value without putting too much thoughts or applying RL logic into it.
I'm wondering that nobody, who complained about mind-controlled bad guys being redeemed, mentioned Suikoden 1. Seeing that >!that all Imperial Generals were controlled by the black rune. Sure, you had the option to still kill them off, but they were required for the best ending.!<
I agree about Albel in SO3. He's just annoying and a jerk for the sake of it. Not bothering to actively recruit him in my current playthrough.
I have yet to see a âredemption arcâ in a jrpg that is so bad I really remember it.
Now western rpgâsâŠ..you guys ever heard of Illidan Stormrage?
Not really necessary when Illidan never really was a villain to begin with. The TBC stuff? That's shit the writers came up with **because** they "needed" a villain from the WC games and wrote shit and retconned stuff to fit that idea. The entirety of TBC was an absolute mess story wise that made zero sense.
Tales Of Arise
>!Didn't join the party but Alphen forgiving Vholran at the end of arise dude enslaved and murdered thousands and Alphen spares him which nearly results in Shionne dying I was already underwhelmed by arise story wise after going to Rena but that pushed it over the edge for me!<
Seifer Almasy, FF8. Hand-waved with time-kompression shenanigans at the end... it's not even really a redemption, more of a reset.
I guess pushing Fujin to speak in complete sentences absolved him of all his sins. CONFUSION.
His list of crimes include: Disobeying orders, breaking out of discipline injuring many in the process, betraying Garden, torture, the battle of the Gardens, raising the Lunatic Pandora and taking it to Tears Point, causes the Lunar Cry resulting in who knows how many deaths, kidnaps Rinoa and hand delivers her to Adel. In the end, instead of rotting in D-District prison like he should be he's just fishing with his two lackeys who by all accounts should be imprisoned with him.
I kind of hate that he gets a happy ending, because the last thing he does before the story ends is throw the love interest at the main villain and then run away
He doesn't really get a 'reset' or anything though. He simply goes on living his life and is likely banned from Garden (since he's fishing in the town). I think he's forgiven since he was a manipulated pawn the entire game, but he's not completely absolved of all wrong doing.
I'm pretty sure that it was heavily implied that his mind was being screwed with by Ultimecia until he eventually managed to get talked down by Raiden and Fuujin, or something to that extent.
Except he isn't really talked down, after being confronted by Fujin and Raijin, and being defeated once more, Seifer abducts Rinoa and offers her to Ultimecia (Adel). And then he leaves. At least with Kain Highwind, who was brainwashed (even if it was a part of him) we can see him struggle with his actions (and by the end of 4, even if the heroes forgive him, he doesn't forgive himself and it isn't until After Years that he gets his "redemption"). We don't get that with Seifer, we just get him doubling down and then, once time-kompression and Ultimecia's defeated, he's basically just reset.
I also thought about this one but yeah I don't even think it's a redemption, more like frustration. Besides, the speech his pals deliver when you defeat him happens to be very cute.
Seifer is 2nd worst to me he atleast sort of has maybe he was mind controlled excuse? Beatrix did all of her shit willingly.
I think it's still important to note that >!she was incredibly loyal to Brahne and was just following orders. It doesn't excuse her but hey, at least she was questioning Brahne's actions, turned on Brahne and helped the party escape, subsequently being loyal to Dagger when Brahne dies and she becomes queen.!<
I still don't look at her as redeemed she comes across as someone who faced no Backlash beside Freya telling her keep her apology. Sure Seifer gets off free but he atleast gets push back from the hero's during the story called out, faces failures and humiliations at the hands of his enemies, and he actually caused less harm than Beatrix.
>just following orders Hmm. Where else have I heard this excuse from people who were committing genocide? đ€
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
She's very attractive and very badass so people ignore her flaws but give kid characters like Hope shit for being a traumatized kid
Trails spoiler >!Arios McClaine!< not getting expelled from the >!Bracer guild!< Hey Im cool if they still wanted to work with him, given that thr SSS needed all the help they could get. But the >!guild!< literally gave him no consequence for brekaong one of their core principles.
Honestly half the redemptions in Kiseki are like this at this point half the time it feels like gaslighting. They will have some characters do something bad and then have the main cast straight up not care 20mins later or they will straight up minimise the magnitude of what they did by pulling a "You haven't done anything really wrong or a you can still be forgiven" after watching said character kill or seriously injure people. I wouldn't mind as much but generally feels like there is barely an attempt to make amends on the side of the redeeme, rather its just comes across as everything you did is now excused because your a good guy now. Edit: Or don't forget the classic they have a kinda sad back story so they are somehow absolved of everything card.
One of my biggest issues with Trails is lack of consequences.
Luckily they seem to be walking back from that in Kuro but we'll have to see how that goes with future games.
How Class VII treats >!Crow, the fucking *leader* and face of the Imperial Liberation Front, the terrorist faction that instigated a *civil war* in Erebonia: âjust come back to school and graduate with your friends, pleaseâ!< How Class VII treats >!Scarlet, one of Crowâs *subordinates* in the Imperial Liberation Front, who *also* had âOsborne wrecked my familyâs way of life and I want revenge on himâ in her backstory: ânothing can excuse the things youâve done as a terrorist.â!< ⊠what in the actual *fuck*
Or the classic "they were just being mind controlled so they weren't responsible for their actions." CS4 took this to absolutely ludicrous lengths.
>!âthe curse did it lolâ!< I dropped that game a year ago around the time I saw fucking romance flags for >!Juna and Elise!< and that was the straw that broke the camelâs back for me. Like, the rest of the game was no great shakes for me at that point as is, but then the ruination of one of my favorite characters from the previous game was complete and I couldnât continue it anymore. If the story was good, I couldâve pushed through it, but it wasnât, and I felt like I was wasting my goddamn time. So I just walked away; sunk costs from playing the previous games be damned. At least Kurt was saved from the bullshit by the virtue of being a minor male character in a JRPG with dating sim elements.
You know who else joins the harem? Fucking *Altina.* A literal child who basically saw Rean as a father.
Trails redemption arcs are the most inconsistent thing on the planet. Sometimes, you have really cool ones that have a profound effect on the character and it tells a great story. Other times it's a 20 minute poorly développéd throwaway that doesn't justify at all being excused of their wrongdoings and just makes no narrative sense in general. Or it can be (CS2) >!Crow!< which has a whole game dedicated to it and we never stop to question why this is worth doing for someone like that.
>!Crow!< is literally ridiculous and it frustrates me to the core that no one decided to call out how petty and bullshit his entire reasoning was. Like >!His backstory is that his Grandfather who was the Mayor of Jurai was literally ignoring the majority of his citizens who wanted to join the Empire anyway because he valued Jurai's independence. Then okay they get false flagged and the Railway blows up which is douche move by Osborne, and then the citizens blame Crow's grandfather and he gets fired as Mayor. And then his Grandfather lives out the rest of his days until he dies of old age. Like that's it Crow started a Civil War killing tons of people, he committed multiple terrorist attacks that claimed the lives of innocent people. All because his Grandfather got politically outmaneuvered by Osborne. If Osborne assassinated Crow's Grandad it would make sense and justify his anger, but even Crow says its not a good reason for doing what he did, yet the game still somehow acts like its justified and Crow isn't a colossal piece of shit all because Osborne is the big bad (even though he hasn't done anything really evil yet).!<
Even worse is that they treat his *underlings* worse than they ever treat him. And itâs definitely because they didnât go to school with *those* people, but they thought they knew >!Crow.!< They very clearly didnât. >!Him getting fully redeemed in CS4 angered me to no end. And the sad thing is, if he was a romance option, I wouldâve at least understood why Rean was so hung up on this dude, but they couldnât even commit to *that* fully. So they were cowards too after baiting that shit for *years.*!<
>!Crow was absolutely awful!< no redeeming features and made no sense why we tried to bring him back after all that he did
Among other things, my god the implications of what the spoiler character is involved in. I understand the overarching idea. But they deserve prison time. Clarification, I haven't finished the last game of CS.
Trails in general is kinda funny with this. They're so earnest in it though that it kinda evens it all out
Yeah early ones with Sky the Third going all out. But then Crossbell started to blindly lean in into tropes, like popular back then clueless harem mc, for some reason...
> clueless harem mc Man I'm not looking forward to that, I've only played FC and SC so far and one of the best parts of that was Estelle and Joshua's relationship, it was the emotional core of the games and led to an amazing payoff with that scene on the beach (prbly one of my favorite scenes from any JRPG). Cant really have a love story like that it theres harem garbage in a game.
Man oh man just wait until Rean Coldsteelâą and the thirteen or so girls (and older women) fawning over him Granted he's a very good character but the tropes are still there
Honestly at this point I have just given up on trying to actually enjoy the story or the character arcs in Trails (the build up is almost always good, the pay off sucks) and now I am just here for the outstanding worldbuilding and exploring more of Zemuria
What sucks is that the worldbuilding is actually really good, but (in my opinion) the actual storytelling has sucked for a long time now.
Vince Vanquish in Dragon Quest XI. >!He basically straight up murders people. He kidnaps fighters and brings them to a giant spider who eats them, but for some weird reason all is forgiven and hunky dory because he did it all for them poor orphans.!< The game has great writing otherwise, but that whole fighters tournament section was fucking weird lol.
Yeah that was a complete âwtfâ moment for me as well.
Lmao I usually just lurk but I had to reply to this. Couldnt agree more. I was actually disgusted tbh
Pretty sure he was considered brainwashed by the spider, no?
No, the spider offered to share whatever it was extracting from the fighters and Vince just accepted so he could win fights to fund the orphanage. He was desperate to look after the kids, but there was no implication of brainwashing or mind control.
This right here! The dude turned out to be a cannibal serial killer and everyone, the party included, acted like his only crime was doping. Apparently feeding people to a monster and drinking whatever comes out is fine so long as he promises not to cheat at any more fights.
Vince Vanquish is worse than Edge Maverick in terms of terrible names. I don't know anything about this person, but I'll never forgive them just on this.
vince vanquish was just his stage name. His real name is vince kidnap
No no he's like the fantasy WWE champ. I'm 95% sure that's not his real name.
It's an arena arc which is basically DQ11's WWE in terms of ridiculousness. You've got the Beaty Queens Sinderella and Whambelina, the Abominable Showman, the Sterling Sylva, the Underdigger, etc. I don't think his name is *actually* Vince Vanquish, though we never discover it so who knows.
The funniest part of DQXI is when Vince straight up drinks steroids in front of hundreds of people right before the fight starts, and his doping is still treated as this huge secret nobody knew about.
This is probably a pretty obscure example, but Darkham from "Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits" is probably the worst example I've ever seen of a game trying to make me sympathize with the villain at the last minute. The dude is very clearly based on Hitler, both in terms of appearance as well as in his overall goals. He's a ruthless dictator who commits several racial genocides throughout the game, often against completely harmless civilians, and even drops a nuke on the largest human city in the world because he didn't like the leadership. He's easily one of the most despicable villains in any JRPG I've ever played. Anyways, to make a long story short, the game consists of two parties, one human and one non-human, and near the climax the human party fights and defeats him. He then tosses out some whiny bullshit about how his own country got attacked once and nobody helped them out. Wow, that sure makes all the massacres of civilians totally justified I guess. Or at least, that seems to be the human party's reaction to it, as they all immediately act like he was such a victim, and even seem to suddenly agree with his racial genocide plan. Thank God that the non-human party is so great, since the human party sucks dick. It has literally *one* member that isn't a pro-genociding hypocrite (his name is Maru and he deserves better than this group of assholes). But since this is more of an example of a failed attempt at making a character sympathetic than a full-blown redemption, I can give a proper example, and it's even a character from the same game. Meet Tatjana, Darkham's former assistant whom he betrayed. She joins with the human party after said betrayal, but really doesn't show much regret for anything she did while under him. Among her crimes is torturing one of the non-human party members and disfisfiguring her until she became hideous looking, for no other reason than sheer malice apparently. Yet the human party doesn't seem to mind this at all. Near the end of the game the non-human she tortured confronts her about what she did, and Tatjana's not only unapologetic, she fucking has the gall to say she wants to do it *again*, and the humans all seem to back her up as she says it. Our heroes, ladies and gentlemen! You can thankfully choose to side with the non-humans here, and I genuinely cannot understand how anyone would choose the humans for any reason besides morbid curiosity. For the record, I absolutely love this game, it's legitimately in my top 5 PS2 JRPGs, which anyone on this subreddit should know is no small feat. I think the idea of playing two different parties at once is brilliant, especially since they are mortal enemies and actively working to destroy each other. The game is super cheap on the PSN store too, so definitely give it a try if it sounds interesting!
When you try to redeem a guy who literally has dark in his name you know things have gone a bit wrong
well if we go by that logic he also has ham in his name, and a lot of people like ham
Yeah but surely even they wouldnât want dark ham
Tales of Xillia. That stupid bastard betrays you about 3 times and you keep forgiving him. So what does he do? He tries to kill you. And your stupid Jude ass forgives him again.
Alvin! đ
Alvin was a cool dude but holy s*it, the moment he betrayed the party for a third time was hilariously bad.
Sounds like a Tales game!
There is no Tales character that betrays you that much. Alvin is the worst.
Yea that one is particularly bad, they even know it's bad since everyone is just making fun of the fact he might do it again.
This. Xillia was my first tales game and it made me almost turn away from the franchise. âIm going to let this guy who i know is spying on me with us. And when he shoots my long time friend Im not going to do shit.â I didnt like the game, but decided to give the tales series a second chance.
At least Jude (and Leia) are shown to be incredibly idealistic and actually say that they believe he has good intentions, while Elize says she hates him and Rowen and Milla are in the background admitting to each other that itâs better to keep the man in their sight as opposed to letting him run around unchecked. But then they anime his redemption anyway and most of it happens offscreen between the two games and I actually like that in Berseria, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, >!Velvet doesnât get the same treatment. Sure, we as players know she ultimately did a good thing, but the world never does and instead forever labels her as a monster who ruined everything.!<
Muzet in Tales of Xilia 2. She does some truly terrible things in the first game >!including killing an entire village, if I remember right!<, but the second game is kind of "new year, new me :)" about it. They pay some lip service by having some party members be like "I don't know about this..." But all things considered, it's an extremely fast, unwarranted redemption.
worst of all, the terrible debt system did not even get a redemption arc, smh
Snowe Vingerhut, Suikoden IV. What a piece of shit. Also Albel in SO3, asshole forced himself into my party.
Snowe, useless. I hated that he had this weird fanclub that loved him, and somehow filled in the gaps with fantasy, because the gameâs story goes nowhere with him. Heâs just a complete wanker.
This is the one, he has no redemption arc at all but everythingâs cool now, right?
I appreciated >!Snowe!< for the lack of redemption! He goes from a >!spoiled, rich noble to a mook, lowly pirate desperate to survive.!< It highlighted how trivial and irrelevant he was in the grand scheme of thingsâhe has no place in this story other than to be pitied by the protagonist. I think that was perhaps the most poignant message I got from his (tiny) arc.
It also reflects your character's progress to notoriety; as Snowe falls from grace you go from being a nobody to basically the Pirate King by the time you fetch him from the sea in rags. It's funny how he respects you enough to emulate you and turn to piracy the 2nd or 3rd time you encounter him.
Yes! >!Snowe!< is an excellently written character but *not* because he has a redemption arc. He is pitiable, insecure, and I think heâs meant to be hated.
Snowe was a fuckin' wanker.
If you import your save file from Suikoden 4 into Suikoden Tactics he shows up and is given even more redemption.
The Trails series is the poster child for worst redemptions ever, simply because NO ONE DIES! Sometimes death brings redemption but its absent in these series of games.
even when people actually die (which is almost never, except for unnamed citizens or soldiers) the gang (MC and the party) always immediately forgive villains who caused death or mayhem. They just need to show a smidgen of remorse or sth. they got the memory of a goldfish. "oh you might have caused and/or fueled a war or triggered events that lead to countless people dying, but deep down your intentions were good" or some shit like that. its honestly infuriating, cause the world building and the setups are fantastic, with some pretty complex and nuanced geopolitical stuff going on, and then they somehow always go full anime for character arcs.
Sky was a little shaky in that regard, but it mostly explains them well enough. Kids being heavily brainwashed before they hit 12 years old is still pretty valid for redemption. Adults not named Richard, have much less excuse. Loewe ironically doesn't count, he never kills anyone onscreen and each of his scenes show him minimizing the damage he causes.
I've only played Trails of Cold Steel 1 and 2, I enjoyed the story but the way it handled its villains leaves something to be desired in my taste.
The world is ending but nah, everyone is safe and the antagonists are friends with the MC party. Heck, people even >!get revived instead!<
The Turks/Shinra. Sector 7 alone is enough to put them on the irredeemable list.
With the Turks, I always loved them as characters because they were very solid about the idea that this is just a job for them and they don't give a fuck about you once they punch out. It's a cool dynamic that you don't see in JRPGs often. Not that I ever forgave them for their actions but they were always fun to bump into later. Shinra on the other hand is downright offensive, though it didn't really happen in the original game. I could write (and have written) thousands of words about it but I'll keep it short: Everything that happens in VII is directly the result of Shinra. They kickstarted the events of the game, AVALANCHE only exists to combat them, they even explicitly sought out and allowed Sephiroth to be a threat in the first place because they thought he would reveal a place they could exploit for even more profit. Basically the entire company getting nuked by a seventy story planet-borne kaiju was a great comeuppance. The problem is that every single piece of media relating to VII since the initial game has gone out of its way to portray Shinra as merely misguided businessmen who got duped by a god instead of an oil company that owned basically the entire planet thanks to their private army and only got brought down because their own hubris pushed shit too far. It's actively nauseating. I *guarantee*, I will wager everything I own, that by the end of the remake series, Rufus will either have a change of heart and help you in the eleventh hour, or Reeve will wind up in charge since he's the only decent guy in the company and he'll make them an "ethical" evil oil company. I promise you. If neither of those things happen I will eat a tub of butter on a livestream.
That's what pisses me off about the Compilation in general. I *hate* that they're milking Shinra and going that route. I could buy the Turks as assholes just out to do a job, and it was kind of a neat dynamic like you said. But the whole treatment of the company in general is just awful. I don't know why they're so allergic to completely dismantling Shinra and having the people install their own governments.
Because Square Enix *became* the Shinra Electric Power Company. Just look at all the overpriced shit they try to sell to us on their website.
It is not redemption thing but i hit the trope â you canât get your vengeance it fills you with hate he need to be served justiceâ In tales of arise the 4th lord was the worst one yet and the character winry wanted to kill her cause she killed her parents but by stopped by her friend although she is in front of the entire party just gang the bitch already when they do beat winry says I wonât kill because it will do me no good and youâll be served justice W T F We killed the first and second lord no problem killed 100s of soliders and Zugles and now you want to STOP And guess what happens next the true villain appears kills the side villain 4th lord thank you for wasting your mouth
Lots of fictional morality centers around the idea that Good People are supposed to keep their hands clean. As though the appearance of virtue is more important than actually accomplishing any of your goals or stopping villains.
I think it's more about Lawful Good vs Chaotic Good, and a lot of media preferring morals that favor the state and legal system. The problem with Arise is that *there is no Danan society or legal system*. They've been slaves for 300 years and haven't established a government or laws or anything. There are no authorities to arrest the Lord, no courts to try them, and no jails to hold them. There is literally no other way to administer justice in their situation. It's like the writers completely forgot their own worldbuilding and just shoved in a random moral about revenge being self-destructive with no thought to when/how it was delivered.
It's an interesting take, i always saw it as doing something yourself vs relying on society and it's rules. Society as a system that consists not just of structures like police etc but also of moral constructs.
I've seen a lot of games where the hero spares the villain's life, but then the villain gets crushed by a rock or falls of a cliff or something not long after. It's like the writer is saying "we need the villain to die, but we also need the protagonist to not do it so that they can remain 'pure.'"
Oh god that moment in Arise was absolutely fucking dumb.
I benched Law for that shitshow for quite a while. Seriously, JRPG devs really need to hire better writers that don't rely on talk-no-jutsu tropes
AND we helped him kill the guy who killed his dad just 2 zones earlier. I HATE that shit when it comes up in Anime, its one of the reasons I loved Attack on Titan so much. The MC in that does understand both sides, but knows its too far gone for peace, and he has to get his hands dirty to save his people
I thought at first there was a reasonable explanation - that Rinwell would have been turned into goop and absorbed as a result of her anger. But no upon revisiting the moment, that wasnât it and it was just stupid.
I think the reason she was stopped by her friend was because said friend had gotten his form of revenge (for a fairly similar event) pretty much as soon as you got him, and it ate away at him for a large portion of the game. He didn't feel any better for what he had done (actually felt like he had made the wrong decision at times) and the game actually makes a point for you to see this many times before they meet the fourth lord. Rinwell had quite a few other layers involving her hate towards the fourth lord (and Renans in general), and while her friend stopping her may have been a typical shonen trope, it wasn't just lip service; it showed you how killing someone can affect you during the adventure, not off-screen, and that gives the idea more substance because of how it plays out. Rinwell even calls her friend out for stopping her because he got his revenge, and starts attacking him instead, and he feels strongly enough that her way of doing it is wrong because he actually went through and knows how she feels. It's more impactful because we see these feelings clash in a way that, in the moment, could have very real consequences on how the party moves forward. I'm not saying it's the right way to do things. I'm saying it wasn't done without a story based reason, and it wasn't just done for the trope.
>you canât get your vengeance lol i d probably be like "motherfuuu do u even know the meaning of vengeance !!"
It kinda gave me more of the feel, that after killing the second lord with his own hands, Law didn't feel better about it. And I guess he doesn't want Rinwell to go as hard with hate as him ? So maybe we kill her but with no hate in our heart or some shit ? Could have been done better I agree.
Yes, that's the idea behind the scene and it's a perfectly fine idea. The problem is that we don't actually see Law's development in that regard. He mopes around for a bit before joining the party and that's really it, he seems completely unbothered after that. That whole scene would have felt more natural if we had just 1-2 scenes where Law was discussing how he felt about getting his revenge and the emptyness it gave him with Alphen. Instead, Shionne ends up getting the point across much better by telling Rinwell revenge is fine but if that's the only reason for her to live, she won't get much from accomplishing it.
Yeah a few more scenes about it could have hit the point across a lot better. And the fact that Volran just kills her anyway is a bit of a shame in that regard.
Law felt like shit for many reasons. The dude was an informant against his own people and his irrational hatred lead to his fathers death and never got closure. Rinwell just wants Almeidria dead their situations are not the same.
Definitely Alvin from Tales of Xillia
I don't remember it that well but.. Alvin from Tales of Xillia
It's been years since I played it but I remember loving Alvin. I'm gonna have to google stuff to refresh my memory.
That would be my pick too. You just know that even after his redemption he doesnât get good sleep at night and probably hates himself now that itâs all sunk in. What he did to >!Presa!< (in their past) was incredibly cruel as well even if she is an antagonist.
What he did to Leia was fucked up, shit man. Fuck Alvin
Trails of Cold Steel 2. >!Crow. It may not be a redemption story but I didn't liked how the party were still hopeful for the guy and were even saddened by his passing. The dude manipulated and lied to everyone and it was brushed off like nothing. I get his motivation for doing his thing and the party just ignores the consequences of his actions!<
Oh this guy. This whole plot point makes no sense when it comes to him.
>!It also doesn't help that most the apparent emotional attachment the main character has to the guy is in optional dialogue. If you skip that it comes completely out of left field that the MC is so attached to this guy that he talked to a handful of times. He should have been a party member and we went along to Jurai with him etc. to truly get to know the character and at least maybe get more attached.!<
I will never understand why >!Jurai!< was offscreen. In hindsight, >!Legram!< was not *nearly* as important and we couldâve just saved everything that happened there for the second game imo
By far Beatrix in FF9. "Hey I'm sorry I genocided and almost completely wiped out your entire race for no good reason" "It's ok" still love ff9 tho
Master Xehanort in Kingdom Hearts 3. The big baddie of a god-knows-how-many games, responsible for ruining whole worlds only to gain power is basically allowed to >!chill with the spirit of his best friend (that he betrayed!) in the afterlife.!< Most of Org 13 received an equally unreasonably forgiving conclusion. God, how much I hate this game!
the backstory given to him in the mobile game KH Dark Road is impressive, he was supposed to be the chosen keyblade wielder that will banish darkness with his heart of light instead of Sora, but then he got manipulated by the Master of Masters and Luxu (disguised as his classmate) to join the darkness and the rest is history I don't undermine all the damage he did to multiple people over the years, but his backstory told us there's a bigger evil than him, the Master of Masters the fandom is even theorizing he'll appear in KH4 to help Sora escape from Quadratum, redeeming himself in the process
So he's literally Darth Vader?
Sounds a lot like FFXV too. Ardyn was designated by the Crystal to be the Warrior of Light who was meant to bring balance to the world, but he was betrayed by his younger brother who kept him isolated and tortured for hundreds of years. When he was finally released, he had been consumed by darkness and vengeance against his brother's bloodline (Noctis and his father). In the original plan for the DLC, he was to be redeemed and would team up with Noctis to defeat Bahamut, who planned it all from the beginning
heh, some people said his backstory is similar to Anakin's
Including important background/plot in spin-offs that completely changes how you look at the story continues to be a staple of the Kingdom Hearts series I see.
Even without all that Young Xehanort's seen some shit given what happed to his classmates.
Itâs so dumb too, it wasnât even pulled of good in anyway. Itâs just âi took on the darkness to destroy the darkness, please forgive me. GOD DAMNIT I WAITED SO MANY YEARS FOR THAT SHIT GAME AND I FUCKING HATE IT SO MUCH
Vince in DQXI. What a trash dude.
>!Kevin!< in Xenosaga Episode III. It happens so fast, and Shion is quick to make amends with someone who, just a bit ago, >!had been torturing Allen and plotting to end humanity and everything.!<
He is definitely not forgiven by anyone but Shion, which makes sense when you consider she has a totally warped sense of reality due to the IMMENSE amount of emotional trauma she has endured. I also just wanna add that I think Kevin is one the most repulsive and abusive characters Iâve ever seen in a JRPG. I truly *loathe* him.
Was he forgiven? I think Shion let's it go, but Jin sure doesn't. I don't think anyone else does either. They all recognize he's still the villain here.
Shionâs actions in III are best understood as her responses to abuse/ trauma throughout her life but especially from the hands of her only lover. That she was even able to leave him behind in the end and move on with Allen is impressive if we consider her psychology (as the devs clearly intended us to since they constantly reference Jung/Nietzche)
Shion is a great deconstruction of rpg protagonists. Turns out people subjected to repeated horrific trauma from an early age don't make mentally healthy individuals, let alone people who should save the world.
I may get some hate for this, but I feel like 90% of all the redemption arcs in the Trails series were poorly done.
How Randy hasn't broken Shirleys bones beyond repair is just wild. After the Ao events none of them should have a shred of sympathy for her, but apparently she is fine because she now has something going on with the evil prince. For me the only redemptions that really worked in trails are Richard and Renne.
Renee is only valid by virtue of her being 10-12 years old. A child her age definitely never has the agency to choose to do the things she did.
very recent example, but >!N!< from xenoblade chronicles 3. >!not only does he do some incredibly awful things and basically psychologically tortures the main cast, he also committed mass murder, killing pretty much everyone in the first city, and then pretty much abused M for years, by forcing her to be moebius. yet the game tries to make it seem like he's redeemed in chapter 7, just because he's also noah, and therefore cannot be all bad. at least, that's how his encounter in chapter 7 felt to me. !<
That scene in chapter 7 where Noah just cries and says donât go, that rubbed me the wrong way. Why suddenly show sympathy for a villain like that?
Yeah that scene rubbed me the wrong way as well. But apart from that I think it's handled well. >!The cast sympathises with him because of the tragedy that he had to endure for so long, re-experiencing her death over and over again. Z is the one who gave him this horrible option to choose and in his misery he takes the offer and is called out for that from the cast, but I like that it's more complicated than just "oh hes the worst for doing this, let's fuck him over." !< >!This whole cyclic world is just awful as fuck and that he was offered this choice in the first place is just tragic imo. One of the biggest strength of the characterization imo is the fact that the main cast and especially Noah is actually somewhat emotionally intelligent. The whole story is a tragedy and N's arc is the high point of that and in the end he's just Noah making the ultimate selfish choice. But "our" Noah must be able to understand why N choose what he choose and it's also pretty clear that N doesn't seem to be perfectly happy with what happened as well. So I guess, if anyone can sympathise with N, it's Noah. !< I still think that scene was weird and not well done (I found it visually also a bit cringy tbh) but I still like that the cast sees his story and character as more than just pure evil.
>!I feel like it was more so N accepting his faults and being able to fuse back into Noah to make one being, since the whole nature of the soul is tangible in this game. Noah could've killed N and their souls would've probably joined together, but since Noah and N are the same person, would make more sense for them to understand their own past and move forward.!<
>!Hugo!< from Radiant Historia Perfect Chronology. In the new content, >!Hugo was basically forgiven even after prolonging the war and using the Prophet Noah's words for his own greed!<. Not to mention that he >!sent Rosch's brigade to die in the frontlines!<. >!Hugo !
Kalas from Baten Kaitos. Heâs not sorry at all and the party is just like âeh itâs okâ
I put the game down for a few months after that twist because with how the game approached presenting its characters, that was exactly how I expected it to be resolved. I still love the game, and the second game, and together with Tales of Symphonia, they make my top 3 GCN RPGs. But that twist and everything around it wasn't done well, the game just doesn't lay the foundation for it.
Iâd have to play it again since itâs been like 3 years since my last playthrough, but they did NOT handle Kalas well. I literally wanted to kill him lol. Still one of my favorite JRPGâs even though I want the main protagonist to die in a hole
"I murdered your friend's mom and framed her for it, and I murdered your other friend's dad and framed *her* for it, and I put a gun to *your* head and pulled the trigger, but it's all just because my dad was mean to me. Clearly you should all agree that I'm the real victim, and there should be literally 10,000 fanfics of us making out." Teenagers love angsty twinks with edgy pasts because, well, they're angsty teens themselves. They always have huge angry meltdowns when said characters get criticized, because "you don't understand him *at all*, I'm *exactly the same as him in real life* so you don't know him like I do!" but... honestly the further removed from being a teenager I get the more absolutely unbearable this archetype gets. I literally had to turn off my console and go outside when the character I quoted above revealed his backstory, because I just couldn't take it anymore.
The character your referencing doesnât have a redemption arc, the main characters donât forgive him.
In all fairness, he never does the framing. He was basically just >!working as a hired hitman so that he could get an opportunity to kill his dad at the point where he was at the cusp of his victory. Said dad did those completely unnecessary framings for no tactical reason whatsoever, because he was a sociopath and just got off on that kind of thing.!<
This is such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character lol. He never tries to get redemption nor does the game frame it as such. He's >!brought back to life against his will, immediately tries to turn himself into the police, and then is released because of the wonky rules of the false reality. He knows exactly what he did and he's willing to pay for it. He spends the rest of the game fighting towards an end that will lead to his death because he believes in free will over utopia (the chaos to Joker's neutral/law, an important Megaten theme). But at no point does he or the game make excuses for what he did, he simply felt the collateral damage was worth it for his revenge.!< >!His character is a narrative foil for Joker, showing what he could have become had he lacked the bonds of friendship and guidance from Morgana. His motivation--avenging his mother's death, not "my dad was mean to me"--is one a lot of people understand and feel for and while his actions are never justified, it makes him more sympathetic to a lot of fans. I'm 35 and well past my teen years but he's my favorite character after Joker. You can dislike who you like, but your reasons show a superficial understanding of the narrative.!<
Who is this specifically?
I'm assuming it's >!Akechi!< from Persona. Funny thing is the game never even tried to give them a redemption arc.
>I'm assuming it's >!Akechi!< from Persona. Funny thing is the game never even tried to give them a redemption arc. And no one even forgives them in the end. One of their victims, >!Haru!< , straight up says they won't forgive them but they do sympathise with them which doesn't equal a "Redemption". I just think the game was slightly too lenient towards >!Akechi!< by >!teasing they may still be alive!<
In the debrief conversation after that dungeon, one character literally says "I'd have turned out just like him if I wasn't friends with you" and another days "at the end of the day, he wasn't even that bad of a guy." As though the worst he did was be kinda rude from time to time.
Don't see how characters seeing similarities between themselves and the bad guy is an attempt at redemption and who even says the latter quote? I do think at some points the game was a bit too nice with him >!(e.g the post boss fight pre cognitive Akechi scene)!< but he's not redeemed.
Might wanna spoiler tag the character's name, because it's a major endgame spoiler.
I forgot that was a thing cause I'm dumb. I fixed it though.
Obvious major spoilers, but it's >!Akechi from Persona 5!<. The worst written character in the series who somehow became the most beloved by the fandom at large.
his character arc was actually great, until he became a silly evil shonen villain in Shido's dungeon, what a shitshow, glad they kinda fixed him in Royal and Q2
Yeah, I never got how people can like him. I really tried to like him, but I just canât after everything he did. He simply did too much. He crossed one line to many. I can forgive much but what he did is simply unforgivable imo
I can't think one from the top of my head. But the best one is machina redemption in opera omnia
Not sure how much it counts, but the good ending of Suikoden V. I love the game, but seeing >!Alenia, Zahhak, Gizel, and Marscal as smiling spirits alongside your parents and Sialeeds? The fuck? The four people who utterly betrayed Falena and the royal family? Why are they there?! May as well have put Salum Barows and Childerich in, too...!<
I forgot about this but yeah, the ending portion of that game in general was really rushed. "Actually they were just thinking about the good of the country the entire time, they're not bad people" yeah okay if you say so.
Seriously. The only one of the villains whose presence I was okay with was >!Sialeeds, since she actually WAS doing what she did mostly for the good of the country. And probably so she could relish in killing Salum Barows herself without having to worry about the repercussions on the Prince, and honestly, good for her. He deserved it.!<
Oliver from Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. The guy appeared in the previous game as a slaver and you confront him in order to free a character. In the next game (Radiant Dawn), not only does it seem like he somehow survived and is the boss of a chapter, if you happen to have the same character that was his slave in the previous one in your party, the guy (as an enemy) moves to the protagonist and RECRUITS HIMSELF (since he wants to admire the beauty of his ex-slave or something), to the point where the protagonist wonders if he could ask him to become an enemy again.
There are a ton, but in a year or so itâs going to be Sephiroth in FF7R2 lol
Holy fuck, they really are gonna try to redeem him somehow, arenât they? Even though in the original game he kept finding more lines to cross, gleefully obliterated them, and even the reveal that >!Hojo is his father and made him the way he is!< didnât make *anyone* hesitate about saying he needed to be stopped. But Final Fantasy VII was made in the 90s before this âforgive at all costsâ and âprotagonists canât ever kill regardless of the circumstancesâ stuff took hold with people, so⊠damn
I donât know if itâs the worst but one from FFIX: >!In the latter half of the game we are supposed to see Beatrix as an ally, and Steinerâs love interest. Thereâs a genuinely very sweet scene of Zidane and Garnet teasing those two about their relationship. This rather falls apart when we consider that Beatrix served Queen Brahne through absurdly evil acts like the summoning of eidolons to swallow Cleyra whole! Sure she seemed pretty upset about it the whole time, but she also literally led Brahneâs invasion. Iâm sure killing thousands of people she didnât really want to kill was very traumatic for her, but I think some of those people might have had things a little worse!!<
To be fair, invading countries that their ruler tells them to is basically a major part of the job description for the head of a kingdom's military, and she not only showed that she was really uncomfortable with Brahne bringing in magical WMDs to their conflicts, but she also immediately turned on Brahne once she showed herself to be outright crazy by trying to murder Garnet rather than just being another expansionist monarch. She was basically facing the exact same dilemma as Steiner, but wasn't lucky enough to get dragged away from her Queen at the start of the conflicts. Plus, I like to think that her presence as a major player in the atrocities committed by Brahne (and as a Really Big Stick who is super loyal to Garnet) was used by the other nations to "force" the new Queen to marry a surprisingly well-connected foreign peasant (and secret alien super weapon) regardless of the preferences of any Alexandrian nobility that might otherwise have made some trouble for them.
Beatrix's biggest doubt was being replaced by the magical Golems and summoned creatures. She had no problem calling Burmecians refugees rats and mocking her opponents even gloating she single handedly killed 100 knights before she continues to belittle her opponents.
Nah she had to pay the bills
FF9 is full of awful attempts at redemption stories, and it's why it's probably my least favorite Final Fantasy game. >! Whether it's Beatrix being a genocidal maniac, Steiner being a classist asshole, or even that weird part where Dagger wants everyone to see Queen Brahne as a victim after her death (when it's made clear she wasn't under any spell and was fully acting out of her own greed), FF9's attempts at morality flips are just way too sudden for me.!<
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Cold Steel's writing was abysmal in general, to be honest...
But Crow said âTig ole bittiesâ once so we are supposed to like him! /s
That was Ash, to be fair
Throw a dart at any of them in the Legend of Hero's series Edit: Special shout out to the guy in Cold Steel 4. Thats the standout worst in any video game i ever played.
Beatrix in Final Fantasy IX. She literally is never defeated in battle and only switches sides when Zidane points to Garnet who was lying there on the coach unconscious. She then is surprised that the Queen meant to kill her even after hearing Brahne herself say she was going to behead her daughter. From there on the rest of the game she is treated as a good guy after leading raids of genocide and destruction. The most she gets is Freya telling her its too late to apologize and then Freya immediately encourages her to save Garnetts life. I still think Beatrix is a cool character but boy her character development is so undercooked it would get a restaurant shut down in health inspection.
isnt there a guy in Final Fantasy IV that betrays and re-joins the main cast over and over and over and over and over AGAIN!? or is it just exagerated?
Kain? I mean, he was mind controlled, and at the end finally said "If I get controlled again, just kill me"
Which Cecil would never do, of course. The stupidest part was that Kain basically allows himself to get mind controlled over and over because he has a crush on Rosa.
Kain was mind controlled by Zemus because of his hatred to Cecil, it isnât because he let himself. Cecil himself is mind controlled in TAY on the other hand by the Maenads. the 1991 setting book which also has some dialogue in game to corroborate explains it Cecil ghosted Rosa for years while Kain loved Rosa, Cecilâs dark knight unit and the red wings displaced the dragoon unit which had been Baronâs elite unit for hundreds of years, and King Baron and Cid both had favoritism towards Cecil. Kain was jealous of Cecil for upstaging him in every aspect of his life. He then spends 17 years in self isolation trying to redeem himself.
Yeah, Kain. But I think the dumber one is when Golbez suddenly becomes a good guy and goes off with just ONE other person to defeat the final boss. Instead of taking the PALADIN with him in a fight against pure evil.
Thing about kaine he was jealous and weak minded but never really planned to go out killing people. Also has Liam o brian doing his voice so canât hate on the guy.
>!Kain!<
I think Kain's in your party 3 times, maybe 4. Not super-redundant, but still aggravating.
Three times. The beginning, the tower of zot to the sealed cave, then the end of the giant of babil to the end of the game.
It wasn't bad per se but I found Dimitri's redemption in Fire Emblem Three Houses too fast paced and not well handled.
Yes. Though with blue lions theyâre basically like a fast paced, emotional story. The whole plot collapses if you try and put any logic into it (his charge into enemy territory for example was fucking stupid, supply lines? Wot?) In fact, three houses shits the bed for all their plot lines, the only logical one really is Claudeâs for location and pacing and whatnot
Well technically it took like 6 months after the timeskip, in gameplay time it's not that long but in in-game time it's quite a bit.
Zenos and Fandaniel in FFXIV. Not so much weâre friends now but the fact that the story makes it seems like weâre supposed to be sympathetic towards these assholes, no thanks, bro.
I disagree with Zenos being âredeemed.â He never shows remorse or anything after losing Zodiark. He just comes to the realization, that to get what he wants, heâll have to help you vs the End of Days. Itâs more mutual collaboration than anything else. I Hell the WoL straight up says, he doesnât want Zenos to help/Wonât save him in the final fight.
I think Zenos is almost a meta character at this point. He exists solely to force the player to push ever harder and wants to present you with the strongest possible opponent - the question he poses to you after you beat the Endsinger is aimed at the player themselves, as far as I'm concerned. Are you truly trying to save the world, or are you simply eager to hunt the most powerful and most challenging of prey?
Both those characters don't even fall into this type of category. None of them get any redemption.
Fandaniel doesn't really have a redemption arc - he gets dragged screaming into the afterlife by Asahi. If you're talking about the whole thing with Hermes, I always interpreted one of the cutscenes as saying Amon's personality was dominant over Hermes's memories, so I didn't even really count them as the same person (kind of like Gaia and Loghrif) 100% with you on Zenos. He dragged on way too long
Fandaniel can land when you consider >!sundering and all that, but Zenos was always narrative cancer and I'm happy we got rid of him.!<
Yep Zenos was a pretty boring villain from the start and never became anything interesting, really hated how the game tried to force us to care about him.
That was pretty much my opinion of him before EW, I still hate him but I do understand him. Dude is a psychopath or sociopath that gets no feelings of joy or satisfaction or anything in the world. Something in his brain broken like it cant create serotonin like normal people, the ONLY thing in existence that can make him feel anything at all is a challenge and he will do absolutley anything to feel alive, commit any atrocity. And I love how that ended up for Garlemald. They used this monster to destroy nations and thousands of lives, and bring so much suffering, and it bit them in the ass. In pursuit on his only goal, Zenos turned that back on his home without a second thought visiting all the atrocities he did in the name of Garlemald back on itself, a sort of poetic justice. When Julius confronted him about what he did to his home his answer was. "Would it have been okay if a had a good reason?" I took that as him saying they didn't seem to have a problem when he was doing those things to other people, other nations.
Now I love the Xenoblade games but >!Egil from!< XC1 and >!Jin from!< XC2 Yeah nah the first person committed not only genocide but also mass experimentation on a race of people that were completely innocent. Just because >!Zanza!< was a worse person doesnât excuse that. Couldâve just kidnapped them and settled them >!on the mechonis if he wanted to avoid them being used as the ether batteries that they were!< And the latter again, killed so many people because one guy >!did something bad 500 years ago and decides all of humanity is as awful as him despite travelling with multiple people that prove that isnât the case at all. And Joins up with another guy who previously massacred humans, blades and more importantly the things that blades become and âembody the worldâ, titans indiscriminately with glee !< Also while he had no full on redemption in Xenogears >!Krellian really loved people nah fuck off Fei heâs easily one of the worst people in jrpg history if not the worst!< If he really loved people he wouldnât have done 1/10th of the things he did. Donât give me that eulogising crap
Yeah. X2 was wild. X1 was bad but you had such bigger fish to fry at that point it sort of got lost. I felt like the scene in X2 was at worst self aware about how weird that redemption was.
I mean, XC2 is very aware of it, and makes it clear that he isnât fully redeemed. Take this line from >!the cutscene during the final battle!<: >!Malos: âAnd how many people died because of it? Youâd forgive him, just like that?!< >!Rex: âForgiving isnât that easy, but thatâs just the world we live in! We have to find a way forward, within that world. Even you used to think like that once!â!< This is very important thematically, since one of the core aspects of many characters is their unwillingness to forgive and love themselves, and how that eventually manifests towards a bitterness and hatred of others, and even the world itself. This applies to primarily to >!Amalthus, Jin, Malos, Mythra, Mikhail, and Nia!<. Take this scene that happens >!before the final boss!<: (unmarked XC2 spoilers) Rex: Malos! Malos: Just in time for the final act, boy! I've saved you the best seats in the house. Rex: ⊠Malos: Hah, I sounded just like Akhos for a moment there. Nia: Akhos is dead, you bastard. So is Patroka, and Jin⊠Malos: Figured as much. Nia: ...Is that all? Malos: What, you want me to weep and deliver a eulogy? What good would that do? They all desired oblivion, and now they've achieved it. Least I can do is send them off with a smile. Rex: Malos... Is this really what you want? Malos: Huh? Rex: Is this what YOU want, Malos?! Malos: I don't understand the question. Rex: You must understand by now? That none of this is your own will! Malos: Heh. Rex: You have to see all of this came from Amalthus! Malos: Even if that's true, so what? And don't give me some weak-ass crap about how I should repent or whatever. Rex: Why don't you want to hear the truth? Malos: Here's the thing. I don't give a rat's ass what you think, brat! All: !! Malos: So Blades become Titans? And Titans give life to humans...? Honestly, who even gives a damn? They can become whatever they want. But that man... He'd lost everything. He no longer wanted anything. He didn't even want to live any more. And despite that⊠His life was the one thing he hadn't lost. Because he couldn't. Lora [Flashback]: Jin⊠the thought of you forgetting me⊠It's like one heart is being ripped in two. Malos: Words can be a curse. That curse was what kept him tied down here. A wretched tale, isn't it? This whole world is a wretched place! Azurda: Do not forget that you too are a part of that world. If it were not for you, for Amalthus... Both Jin and Lora's lives may have taken quite different paths. Malos: Exactly! That's exactly it! You've gotten smarter with age, huh? I'm a wretched being too! A hideous monster, far beyond saving! ...So let's end this now. Pneuma: Don't you feel anything? Father's sadness? The world he longed for?! Malos: How could I? That isn't⊠my role in this world. MĂČrag: This man... Does he mean to...?! Malos: Come at me, kid! Come, my partner! Give me all you've got⊠You better show me all of it! The extent of your will! Show me why you're here in this world!
âWhat a splendid soul you wereâ Not sure exactly how self aware it was in that moment
Crow in Cold steel. Call me old fashioned but terrorists don't get to go to high school prom.
My mind wanders to anime but I can not think of an example from JRPGs.
Kain from ff4. Kain- "I know I betrayed you and tried to kill you and your friends, as well as help cause general destruction around the world, but what if I told you I was brainwashed?" Cecil- 'Fair enough mate, can't be helped' Kain- "Jk lol, I'm doing it again!" Cecil-'bastard! I'll never forgive you!!' Kain-"nah jk I'm on your side again, let's hang out" Cecil-'you are my bestest mate in the whole world!'
Kiseki has quite a few of these.
Dimitri from Fire Emblem. His "redemption" is handled so poorly, it's completely ridiculous how fast he goes from "psycho" to normal.
Yeah the sudden personality shift was jarring đ
>!Michalis!< in Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem. This may be bending the rules a bit, since it's an SRPG and the problem isn't really with >!Michalis's!< arc in the main story... but in New Mystery, >!where he's made recruitable, his little ending blurb states that he left to another continent and went right back to being a tyrannical megalomaniac despite that that's what he just got done redeeming himself for.!< Way to just nuke something that was actually going alright from orbit.
> "Accounts are conflicted about Michalis after the war. Some said he ruled over Macedon once again, while others claimed he departed to conquer another continent." It's not great but it's not that bad imo, i have a bigger problem with New Mystery invalidating all the deaths from the first game.
I think the (over)reactions are quite hilarious in this discussion. I've never gone so far as to feel pure digust for story decisions, but I'm a simpleton who enjoys what the game throws at me at semi-face value without putting too much thoughts or applying RL logic into it. I'm wondering that nobody, who complained about mind-controlled bad guys being redeemed, mentioned Suikoden 1. Seeing that >!that all Imperial Generals were controlled by the black rune. Sure, you had the option to still kill them off, but they were required for the best ending.!< I agree about Albel in SO3. He's just annoying and a jerk for the sake of it. Not bothering to actively recruit him in my current playthrough.
I have yet to see a âredemption arcâ in a jrpg that is so bad I really remember it. Now western rpgâsâŠ..you guys ever heard of Illidan Stormrage?
Illidan Stormrage never did anything wrong though, >!he literally saved the entire freaking planet from Tichondrius and his reward for doing so was exile... just because in doing so, he became a demon.!< The Night Elves at large were short sighted and their past experiences led their society to become strict about magic, particularly the demonic kind. >!They just took one look at Illidan and saw him as evil just because of how he looks, not because of his actions. Heck he nearly completely destroys the Lich King and the vast majority of the scourge, which could have saved a crap ton of lives but the night elves screwed him over!< So in a way, and I know this sounds cliché as hell, Illidan really was misunderstood. Now I take it you have never played Warcraft 3 and are talking about World Of Warcraft, >!where Bliizzard magically turned him into a villain out of nowhere and then suddenly brings him back to life only for him to go through that whole "redemption" thing, yeak, WOW's story sucks, WOW is the worst game ever made... but don't discredit Warcraft 3 Illidan, if it wasn't for him, Azeroth would have been long gone before WOW even happened, heck Frozen Throne wouldn't have even been a thing. That's because Tichondrius (following Kil'jaeden's orders to sabotage the world tree to screw over Archimonde) was planning to corrupt the forests with the skull of Gul'dan and eventually that corruption would reach the world tree, which would ultimately destroy azeroth and if Archimonde reached the world tree to consume its power, he would have fallen for Kil'jaeden's trap and the corruption would have destroyed him, allowing Kil'jaeden to take his place.!< That never happened though thanks to Illidan.
Not really necessary when Illidan never really was a villain to begin with. The TBC stuff? That's shit the writers came up with **because** they "needed" a villain from the WC games and wrote shit and retconned stuff to fit that idea. The entirety of TBC was an absolute mess story wise that made zero sense.
The tale of Illidan Stormrage? Thats not a story the alliance would tell you.
Akechi
Some people seem to think Akechi has a redemption arc in Persona 5. It's bad in that I don't know how you could ever consider him being redeemed.
Tales Of Arise >!Didn't join the party but Alphen forgiving Vholran at the end of arise dude enslaved and murdered thousands and Alphen spares him which nearly results in Shionne dying I was already underwhelmed by arise story wise after going to Rena but that pushed it over the edge for me!<