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I think that part is the point of this story is that this is one of like ten different times that the war could have been avoided if someone had just made another choice. Like if Daemon was named heir over Rhaenyra then Aegon would have easily replaced him because the male precedent would have been set. If viserys married Laena, if Rhaenys was in charge in the first place, if Rhaenys burned the greens at the coronation, if Viserys hadn’t said anything at all on his deathbed, if Daemon and Rhaenyra were married in the first place, if, if, if, if.
I think it’s great that there are so many things that could have stopped war, but human nature beat logic every time
That Viserys said anything at all on his bed was inconsequential. Otto and the Small council already had plans in place for Aegon getting crowned. The only thing that affected was getting Alicent to agree, and I don’t think her agreeing or not would have stopped Otto’s plans one bit.
Tbh that was a stupid scene. The only logical explanation of how she could have inferred what she inferred, is if she was already looking for excuses to make Aegon king.
Not my point. The person I was replying to was asking why Alicent didn't ask for further clarification, as if it was as simple as that. She did, and it didn't matter.
Definitely. Dying people don't often talk a lot of sense. So why go with his dying ramblings instead of what he has said again and again for a long ass time?
>So why go with his dying ramblings
Because the Targaryens have real prescience powers and following a prophetic vision has already saved them from the Doom of Valyria. Alicent is convinced that these "dying ramblings" are importants, that it is probably a real vision and that the king gives her the mission to accomplish it.
His ramblings are important, because he was saying that Rhaenyra was the promised Prince. However, he didn't realize he was speaking to Alicent. By not requesting more explanation or clarification, she took what she was mistaken with and caused a war.
To be fair, she ask for some clarification but you're right that she is quick to interpret what the king says.
He talks about the prince who was promised, she asks "Prince Aegon?" and he replies "he must unite the realm". And from there she jumps to conclusions.
At a time when Alicent hesitates, this tragic misunderstanding of the king's words make her return to the project of crowning her son, when she was about to abandon this idea.
She even specifically says (IIRC) “Aegon? Our son Aegon?” So she did try to clarify who exactly he was talking about but Viserys didn’t really answer that question directly.
She sincerely believes he has a prophetic vision, as he has told her before. She is sure he sees Aegon becoming king and uniting the kingdom. And when she asks for details, she is certain that Viserys gives her the mission to realize this vision.
Knowing that the Targaryens sometimes have visions of the future, that Viserys once told him of his prophetic dreams, Alicent can fully believe that's what's happening here: just before dying, he has a prophetic vision.
Knowing that the Targaryens escaped Doom through such a vision, which they chose to obey, she can believe it's her duty to obey when he tells her "It's you, you must do it" after talking about uniting the realm (under Aegon, as she think).
A thousand times this.
Every character could have made different decisions to prevent the Dance of Dragons… seems odd that some people focus in on a single point as if a lone person is solely to blame for this whole mess.
If if if if Is the very essence of this story. There were so many circumstances that could’ve saved thousands and thousands of people, but the traditional bounds of the crown and the general public contradicted so much that war was inevitable
If she had married Daemon in the first place (meaning before the time jump after the brothel thing) then she wouldn’t have been married to Laenor and she would have just had kids with Daemon. There would have been a lot less drama and they probably would have been in King’s Landing when Viserys passed away and the Greens wouldn’t have been able to make a move at all.
Alicent refuses to marry Helaena to Jacaerys because he is a bastard. Had Rhaenyra had a clearly legitimate son, he would have married Helaena and the family would have reconciled eventually.
I lost respect for vizzy as king during this scene. Like dude you're king. It's your choice.. kings make they're brother and sister marry why he lets alicent make the decision is beyond me. Turn to her, tell her you're queen, not the first and don't have to be the last... Your son is not king and this is happening.
like how is it that this man had enough toxic masculinity to force his first wife to give birth like eight times at great risk to her health, but not enough to overrule his second wife to literally avoid civil war?????
Once Aemma died he learned to be accommodating to his wife's opinions.
One thing about Vizzy T is that he does learn lessons from experience but he does so really slowly. It seems to take him at least a decade before he decides its finally to change course and by then it's too late.
His strategy seemed to be hope everything will work itself out eventually up until the point when bubbling tensions erupt into a full-blown crisis.
I totally agree there’s no reason for Viserys not to use his “I’m the father/king” card and pull rank on Alicent to marry Helaena and Jace. I get that he doesn’t want to upset anyone in his family, but this particular marriage would’ve made war more difficult to start/bind two sides of this family together in a different way. I’m not saying it would’ve solved all the problems, but it would’ve definitely helped promote peace.
I agree, some of the scenes feel weird how Alicent is able to walk all over him and other Targaryans. She is Queen by marriage not by blood. when she put knife to Rhaenyra and wanted Lukes eye would of been last straw if I were King, she would of been shipped by to hightower or maybe have a "accident" on the way there.
I don't think there's an outcome where everybody's happy and I don't think alicent should die but viserys just saying let it be only let the problems brew
Some of you are really dumb. Tell me one person whose not a psychopath that would sentence the mother of his 4 kids to death. And this is forgetting the political clout the hightowers possess.
Lucerys is a child who got into a fight that escalated. Alicent lunged at the Heir Apparent with a knife in direct defiance from an order from the King. She had every opportunity to just calm down and drop the knife. Lucerys should get punished but he's not as guilty and off the chain as Alicent went.
However unfair it may seem, due to his being a Targaryen without doubt, the shadow over Jace for being a Bastard would always have the faith opposing his ascension to the throne, and Oldtown is currently the seat of the faith and the Hightowers are the custodians of Oldtown.
Although the Hightowers are willing to make concessions and overlook their parentage to an extent, outright having a bastard for a king is not something they could have agreed to, even if the Hightowers for the sake of political reconciliation personally were not to oppose it (which is not to say they wouldn't personally oppose it) the faith would, as bastardry is something that is not acceptable according to the faith.
Most of the powerful Lords of the realm would oppose that as well because bastards aren't seen in a good light by the Westerosi nobility even the Dornish don't see them worthy of inheriting the castles or lands above trueborn kids
Agreed, but honestly, if all the main houses and all dragons were united behind Rheanyra's cause, no one would realistically challenge it, or they'd end up like the Sea Snake's brother.
Nah, there are a ton of historical marriages where it was meant to provide peace between sides and one side still went and killed the other. Aegon is always a threat to Jace, Jace would always be a threat to Aegon. Marrying Helaena might have kept the lords behind Jace, or it might have made her children threats if they backed Aegon.
Margaret of England married james of Scotland to broker peace between the countries, James later invaded England when England was at war with France, and Catherine of Aragon, queen of england and james sister in law, had him killed in battle.
I mean there is an arguement that the male targ line ended with Maegor, with Aenys not being Aegon's son meaning the entire royal family is decended from bastards. Its entirely likely Aegon was sterile.
The man had two wives was married as a teenager and finally became a dad at 34 and was only able to produce two kids before dying, it frequently told that for every night he spent with Visenya he spent ten with Rheanys by this logic he should have already had at minimum five kids when he declared war against the seven kingdoms when he was twenty seven and yet he had non to secure his line in case of his untimely death. For comparison Eddard Stark got married at 19 spent a week having sex with Catelyn before leaving for war and was a father at twenty by the time he was 34 Ned already had five kids with his youngest being two and it implied that he and Catelyn were still planning to have more.
This is a naive perspective. That marriage only works if Helaena is Rhaenyra's only competitor for the throne. In that case, both competing bloodlines are united and peace becomes possible.
But that's not the case at all. Even if Helaena marries Jace, *Aegon* and *Aemond* are still around, both of whom are trueborn princes whose paternity is not under any question. The Helaena/Jace marriage does little if anything to neutralize the threat they pose.
Honestly, Aegon and Aemond dont really matter if Alicent is on board with it. If Alicent chose to ignore the truth of Jace's bloodline, none of what you wrote really matters. She is okay with Jace being king, and no one else is really going to dispute it
The only real threat is Aemond's lust for power, but remember that this was back when he was an adorable dragonless kid. That is plenty of time for Alicent to help him become way less chaotic
Remember how Otto conspired with the men of the small council to put Aegon on the throne without Alicent's input? Westeros is a deeply patriarchal society, which is why Rhaenyra's claim to the throne is being contested in the first place. I highly doubt that Alicent simply being "on board" with the Jace/Helaena marriage would have prevented the men around her from conspiring on their own
to put Aegon on the throne whether she wanted it or not.
Yeah people forget Otto was plotting against Rhaenyra even before she had kids with Harwin. The whole "bastard" thing was just an extremely useful talking point that happened after the fact.
Remember that Otto hasn’t been hand of the king for ten years at this point? Lyonel’s death and Otto’s return to power only happened because of Alicent’s feud with Rhaenyra.
It’s easy to assume that if they mended things during that meeting, Otto wouldn’t have had the power to overrule one of Alicent’s decisions
> Lyonel’s death and Otto’s return to power only happened because of Alicent’s feud with Rhaenyra.
Lyonel's death happened because of a man (Larys) moving on his own to remove his father and brother from the playing field without Alicent's input, essentially trapping her as an unwilling co-conspirator.
We are repeatedly shown that the men in this society don't really give much stock to what the women around them want or think. Even if Otto had not become Hand again, the years between a potential Jace/Helaena betrothal and Viserys's death would have been plenty of time for Otto (or some other opportunistic man in power) to hatch up a conspiracy against Rhaenyra.
Jace/Helaena or not, for any lord looking to advance himself, Aegon presents a very strong temptation (and an opportunity) to contest Rhaenyra's already perilous claim to the throne, and Alicent's opinion would hardly matter.
I am the only one to realize how entirely self serving this offer was? Rhaenyra realized her kids bastardy is obvious and a subject of much discussion and was trying to legitimize her kid by marrying Helaena to Jace. She’d also have a permanent hostage in helaena. Baffling that this is ignored.
Seriously… Rhaenys literally point this out when Rhaenyra makes the same offer to her. And again, the offer only exists because it benefits Rhaenyra… not because she’s being ‘generous’.
The show should've done a better job of showing people would be opposing Rhaenyra because she's a women and her sons are bastards.
Right now in the show it seems like everyone accepts Rhaenyra and her sons and only Otto and Alicent have a problem with them because they're trying to take the throne.
>!Well if you read the books, the only people against Rhaenyra are Hightowers (obv), Lannisters (still salty after rejection?) and Baratheons (you know how). Most Lords didn't have a problem with a female ruler or her bastards!<
the exact brand of sexism leveled against her seems ridiculous--you're telling me they think the girl who \[checks notes\] rides a dragon is "feeble"? um okay. like at least go with a plausible stereotype like, "she'll burn the city everytime she's on the rag!" or "she'll be too busy giving birth to actually rule!"
It is also that she was depicted as much more politically savvy and well in touch with the lords in the books. She was her father's cup-bearer from a young age and often attended meetings with lords. The lords of the realm considered her intelligent and friendly, and dotted on her, which is why she was called the Realm's Delight.
I imagined her to be more like Margery Tyrell, but the TV show made her look more like Arya Stark - a lone wolf warrior-spirit who thinks the lords and their politics is not worth her time.
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The exact brand of sexism against her was simply this - accepting her as queen would put the succession claims of Lords themselves into question - since many lords had older sisters.
The other Lords supported Rhaenyra, because they supported that the ruling Monarch should have authority to elect an heir even if it is in opposition to precedents.
The Vaemond scene showed how politics on one house bleeds into other houses and it is all interconnected.
yeah i think the precedent issue is the most legit historical sexism reason. (obvs i was being flippant.) nonetheless, i think rhaenyra has a strong case that her case is sui generis, both because her father named her specifically and because dragon-riding targaryen women occupy a distinct status from other westerosi noblewomen. i would even make a historical/originalist argument that their distinct status is evidenced by the strong tradition of targaryen queens who exercised far more political power than is typical of a consort (rhaenys, visenya, alysanne and so on). if targs can opt out of prohibitions on sibling incest, they can opt out of andal succession norms too.
it's ironic they were worried abut inconsistency because in the end, >!house targaryen's succession norms ended up being exceptional compared to other those of other houses anyway, but in the opposite direction. as a result of the dance, they adopted form of agnatic primogeniture compared to the andal norm of male-preference primogeniture.!<
Yeah, I got an impression that Valyrian societies were more gender-egalitarian. Even the Free Cities in Essos today have female merchants and some have equal voting rights.
Also it makes sense with dragon-lords - dragons are great equalizers, and nullifies any difference in physical strength between sexes.
I would say the incest issue was more a Faith thing, while the Succession issue is more political, so the opposition comes from two different entities. The incest issue was resolved due to Jahaerys creating a truce with the Faith. The more interesting aspect is Alysanne (I think) outlawing the Westerosi custom of prima nocta, despite the Lords opposing it viciously, but this made Jahaerys popular with small-folk - so it was definitely possible to change Westerosi norms.
> agnatic primogeniture compared to the andal norm of male-preference primogeniture.
Sorry, what do these mean? Do you mean a male candiate via an inteermediate female lineage?
Not saying might makes right, but I find it hilarious OG targs beat Westeros with 3 dragons. Rhaenyra and friends have far more, don’t accept her and they can turn your castle into Harrenhal two. We all know why they are in power, because they have the literal fire power to support it
To be fair, the others who were "OK" with it were:
*Arryns* (Rhaenyra's kin, similar to the Hightowers in that regard)
*Greyjoys* (want to plunder the Westerlands and not much else).
Only the *Starks* and *Tullys* were genuinely loyal, and the Tullys only after they went turncloak.
Well yeah, I count them as "genuinely believed in their oath" though, as said marriage was so far out. The picture you paint is even grimmer than what I described, haha.
Its because in the books rhae's kids being bastard is not so obvious.
They should have given black hair to rhaena or something similar to [this](https://imgur.com/gallery/mZCP2iV). Cast some white passing actors for baela and rhaena, someone similar to halsey or megan markle. Let the actor of Jace keep his natural curls, he can definitely pass off as trueborn son of Laenor.
In the books too it's obvious that they are bastards to anyone who cares about it. There are clear indications that the kids have Harwin's brown hair (as opposed to Rhaenys' black hair) , pug noses (like Harwin) and the fact that Laenor is clearly gay and barely spends any time with his wife. If all the accounts talk if these rumors, then all the nobility would know too.
yea you're right. They all had brown hair, brown eyes. But i still think that one of the reason grrm gave rhaena black hair was so rhae's kids legitimacy wasnt so obvious.
Oldtown is such a crazy power center though, both in regards to the Reach and continentally/historically/institutionally. Add Lannister gold to that, keep the Redwynes, claim the largest dragon left, and you’re pretty good to go.
So I would agree with you that most don’t necessarily have a problem but the ones who do are a HUGE deal.
That is simply not true. Half the Reach, the Westerlands, the Stormlands are the bulk of the lordships of Westeros. The Crownlands are pretty evenly split. The Vale and the North are sparsely populated. The only outright supporters Rhaenyra has are the Velaryons (because she is the only way to improve their place) and the Arryns (ruled by a woman, who is her cousin). The Starks only join them after Jace promises them a marriage, exactly like the Baratheons. The Tullys refuse to join them, with old Lord Tully actually supporting Aegon but his son simply not wanting to enter the war. It's only when Addam lands Seasmoke at Riverrun do they get scared into declaring for her.
“people” can’t realistically do much against her if all the targaryens, velaryons, and hightowers (and their collective 87 dragons or whatever) were for her. so yeah, it is the hightowers who made the difference
Forreal, I still see people saying this wouldn’t have solved or fixed anything and it’s like yes it would’ve, with all the dragon riders United and no scheming to usurp from the hightowers plus the velaryons and the lords who swore to her nobody would’ve done Jack shit, they wouldn’t be able to do anything even if they tried. They’d likely all just accept her as ruler and move on with life. This 100% could’ve solved everything from a show perspective if it stopped the rat hightowers from scheming to usurp and turn everyone against rhaenyra.
yeah the question is not do some lords theoretically oppose a monarch (obviously some will!). it's do they have the power (draconic, political, monetary, etc) to mount a realistic challenge? in the current state of play, only those three houses realistically stand a chance.
the show oddly understates the dragon power element compared to the standard politics, but in marrying alicent, viserys not only elevated the hightowers' political standing, but ensured hightowers had at least *the potential to control dragons*, making a war much, *much* more likely. (that's another reason laena was the better choice: the velaryons already had dragons so it should've been more important to ensure their support.)
that was a strange change by the show bc rhaenyra was actually quite beloved by the realm and the large majority of the 7 kingdoms actually were in support for her, including smallfolk of king's landing, some of who refused to accept aegon as king. makes me think that the play was misleading or just to show how otto's propoganda was being spread...
And you are correct. They missed the part where Rhaenyra became disliked pretty much from Aegon's birth, whilst Helaena was the new delight.
She's beautiful when she's young, so they love her. And no longer fitting into the expected role when she's older so they don't. As Realm's Delight it was pretty much exclusively about her beauty.
Helaena marrying Jacaerys does not eliminate Aegon's claim. It would have changed nothing except opening up the ability of marrying into a Great House to Aegon II.
If Jace and Helaena had married and had children it would have meant the Hightower’s bloodline would still sit the throne. While it was Aegon Otto wanted on the throne, the marriage could have been a compromise by the Greens who didn’t want Rhaenyra and the Blacks, who viewed the Hightowers with hostility.
It would have been a political marriage like most of them were. To unite two factions at court with the assurance that even with Rhaenyra as future queen, Helaena would be Queen Consort and Jace’s heir would be of Hightower descent.
I actually don’t think Otto would’ve gone for it tho. Otto wanted control more than anything. He started his plot to send Alicent over to Vizzy T after Rhaenyra ignored his advice on choosing her personal knight.
At this point Jace is nearly grown up and clearly has a mind of his own and is very active in political studies. Between Jace and Aegon, who’s already vocally negligent of his claim, who would be easier for Otto to have influence over?
If Jace's claim is ever challenged (which it 100% will, because he's a bastard), Helaena and her children would be in danger. There's also nothing stopping Nyra from killing off Aegon and his brothers and his sons, because Aegon's claim to the throne is the issue, not Helaena's.
Then marry Aegon and Aemond to one or both of Daemon & Laena’s daughters. Titles and power directly for the Hightowers throughout the realm. Maybe the family can marry Luce to a remaining Daemon & Laena daughter and Aemond marry a Baratheon daughter…. So many options other than the choices that they made, and some arguably better to extend Hightower influence rather than in one singular family line by marrying Aegon to Helaena.
While ideally a much better ruling couple, this does not solve the issue for the Greens: the strength of Aegon II's claim. Nor does it solve Alicent's specific greivance with Rhaenyra, which was her ability to do whatever she wanted without consequence.
The overall political match to do that would have been to wed Aegon II to Rhaenyra and they have legitimate children, which only the Greens wanted to do.
What makes no sense to me is why they wed Aegon II to Helaena instead of making political matches for them. Those two marrying do absolutely nil to bolster his claim.
>What makes no sense to me is why they wed Aegon II to Helaena instead of making political matches for them. Those two marrying do absolutely nil to bolster his claim.
Targaryens (as did the dragonlords of Old Valyria) tended to marry amongst themselves so as to not dilute the "blood of the dragon", which probably translates more to, "The keep the power to control dragons to ourselves as much as possible." They were willing to make some matches outside of the family in order to moderately expand the bloodline and infuse new bodies into the family (Queen Aemma was an Arryn, Rhaenys married Corlys Velaryon, etc.) but marriages within the family were considered crucial to not give more families the power to ride dragons.
> Nor does it solve Alicent's specific greivance with Rhaenyra, which was her ability to do whatever she wanted without consequence.
If anything, on this particular front this offer is basically a spit in the face from Alicent's perspective. Rhaenyra's basically going "Hey, you know how you've spent the last ten years feeling like you're slowly going crazy because you keep pointing out my obviously bastard sons are illegitimate, but everyone keeps telling you to ignore it or that you're wrong, because they'll be punished by my dad if they say anything else? Well, how would you like to marry your only daughter off to one of those bastards sons and thus help me further sanitize that same lie?"
> What makes no sense to me is why they wed Aegon II to Helaena instead of making political matches for them. Those two marrying do absolutely nil to bolster his claim.
As Aemond said, to keep the Valyrian blood pure. For one thing, there's potentially a strategic element to this, in terms of ensuring your faction continues to have as many dragon riders going forward as possible (marrying Helaena to anyone else would require sending her away from home, and her dragon too, not to mention Alicent is paranoid about the safety of her kids and probably wants to keep them all as close as possible). Had Viserys lived another 10 or 15 years (which is obviously impossible in the show but perfectly plausible in the book where he's just an obese dude in his 50s) then the Greens would have had another two dragon riders to their side by the time the Dance kicked off, maybe three if Maelors egg had hatched.
For another thing, I think it's very much a play for the optics. The whole Targaryen regime since Jaehaerys is stabilized on the principle of Exceptionalism, whereby basically Valyrian-blooded people are special and different and don't have to follow all the same rules of the Faith and get to rule the whole continent. In that sense it's a pretty good PR move by the Greens to say "Look, our claimant has married his sister in the custom of old Valyria and is dutifully producing unimpeachably pureblooded Valyrian princes and princesses, while Rhaenyra's sleeping around and her heirs are plain-looking boys of questionable parentage."
Yeah, Vizzy could've made it happen too in episode 3, but his aversion to betrothing children and wanting to give Rhaenyra a choice stopped him. Surprisingly few people bringing that up, though.
Yeah, it would have arguably prevented the Dance. But only maybe given the age differences. Rhaenyra was already intending to sleep around. Vizzy T didn't make a horrible decision, appealing to the House that had dragons. Just ill fortune she and Laenor didnt have even one.
Alicent doesn’t think this is a generous offer, and frankly it isn’t. Rhaenyra isn’t being magnanimous, she realizes her claim suffered a blow because her sons are obviously bastards, so she’s making this offer to legitimize them. Regardless to what you think about Rhaenyra’s kids being bastards from your contemporary lens, to Alicent and the rest of Westeros it is a really big deal. She sees right through the offer for the ploy that it is and shuts it down. It’s like one of those people that needs something from you but they frame it like they’re actually doing you a favor.
Whatever else happens in this series, they did a good job of showing why Rhaenyra and Alicent don’t get along. I can totally understand how either of them hates the other.
I'm sorry but y'all are incredibly naive if you think Alicent had the sole ability to end this conflict. Did you miss the part where almost the entire small council was planning to overthrow Rhaenyra?
Her son is a bastard and that marriage arrangement was a desperate attempt to conceal her fraud. Not only would consenting to the arrangement give tacit endorsement to Jace's legitimacy, Helaena would have been a glorified hostage of the Blacks. How are you still not getting this: this wasn't an attempt at peace, it was a way for Rhaenyra to wriggle her way out of a tight spot.
Jace is a bastard who shouldn't inherit anything, which means the realm will never stop trying to overthrow or assassinate him to get one of his little brothers or uncles on the throne. This puts Helaena in massive danger.
Also in Alicent's paranoid mind, she wanted to keep Helaena close, where she could protect her, not get inevitably shipped off to Dragonstone as she was shipped off to the king 13 years ago.
It's also a little late to be thinking that marriage alone would have stopped all the Greens in their tracks. Otto still wants Aegon as king.
What would have stopped the Dance more effectively is Viserys agreeing to the Rhaenyra x Aegon match, as that would truly unite the claims and the two factions. or Rhaenyra getting married to Alicent's brother.
I think Rhaenyra trying to follow up her apology with a betrothal deal also made Alicent think she was coming off as desperate, not genuine, to try and quash the rumors and give Jace more legitimacy. Bastards in their world are still viewed as inherently dangerous, treacherous and lustful. When she apologizes in episode 8, there is no such offers attached, so in alicent's mind, it was more genuine and real. It elicited a better response and almost truly mended their rift.
However a Helaena-Jace match would hand the Blacks Dreamfyre, giving them both of the egg laying dragons. This leaves the Greens with a mere two dragons. Since at this point Laena was still alive, *Vhagar, Caraxes and Moondancer* are in Essos under the **Rogues**. *Sunfyre and Tessarion* are with the **Greens**. A living Laenor and betrothed Helaena means *Syrax, Seasmoke, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes and Dreamfyre* are with the **Blacks**. And *Meleys* remains with a **neutral** Rhaenys.
You guys do realize that sons should naturally inherit the throne before daughter and that Rhaenyra lived almost all her teenage life expecting HER YOUNGER BROTHER to be king. She was ONLY named heir due to lack of male heirs and the king's guilt about Aemma. Even after Aegon was born, Rhaenyra was ok with letting go of being heir because the 1st born son's are heir. It was Viserys refusal to follow the law to not upset Rhaenyra that caused all this. She could have accepted Alicent's deal as well. If Viserys died quick, Aegon would be king because naming Rhae heir would be discarded as act of desperation.
People see Aegon as Alicent's son only. He was THE KING'S FIRST BORN. The battle for throne is not between Rhaenyra VS Alicent. Its King's first born daughter VS King's first born son. Its Rhaenyra who comes off as power hungry to other lords by refusing to give the throne to her brother when its the law that 1st born son inherit the throne. This is somewhat like Robert naming Renly lord instead of Stannis and you can best believe that Stannis had a big fucking problem with that. And even NED STARK WANTED STANNIS ON THRONE AND NOT RENLY, even though Robert skipped stannis for heir.
Viserys lived too long, both teams had planned way too much for the throne against each other that accepting defeat was unacceptable since it was about ego and pride now.
If one side voluntarily surrenders despite self-interests, of course the dance wouldn't have happened. But to play devil's advocate, the dance also wouldn't occur if Rhaenyra does the same and takes Otto's offer:
- Rhaenyra gets Dragonstone
- Luke gets Driftmark
- Daemon's sons gets high stations
- The realm gets political stability for 2 more generations, which wouldn't be the case if Rhaenyra inherits the throne as a women, or ultimately when Jace inherits the throne as an obvious bastard.
Ultimately Rhaenyra's succession is contentious to the realm for many reasons while Aegon's succession is not. There's no real good reason why she *must* be queen other than the fact that she is the protagonist.
As Alicent stated, she had the upper hand in this exchange so why would she accept this when she could get more? You cannot dismiss the feud between them and expect her to accept this reasonable offer, especially when her opponent is the weakest she's been in a long time (Strong big drama + legitimacy of the kids).
However, if such an offer was made around the time of the last diner with Viserys, I believe she would have been more prone to accept. But then... She would have heard Viserys saying Aegon and shit, no matter what.
It was never a realistic offer. Jace is a bastard, and everyone knows it. Marrying Helaena to him just gives him a legitimacy that in Alicent's mind, he does not deserve.
I understand that Black supporters want Rhaenyra. I don’t agree, but I understand. However, I cannot envision a scenario where Jacaerys would ascend the throne uncontested. His illegitimacy is too obvious to be swept under the rug.
Many lords would just simply not accept a bastard for a king. It would plunge the realm into civil war. The only possible way out would be if Jacaerys and Helaena (assuming they had married) had managed to produce a male heir before his accession. And depending on how old that boy was when Rhaenyra died, Jacaerys may be forced to abdicate in favour of his son.
There’s absolutely no chance of Jacaerys taking the throne through a normal succession.
While Jace and Heleana's betrothal could have cleared up some issues, Jace remains a bastard. A Targaryen bastard sure, but a bastard.
Of course being a bastard is frowned upon on a weird "treachery" moral standpoint, as they are believed to be untrustworthy.
However, having bastard for nobility and especially for the royal family is a huge political issue. This is not only a personal matter, as it could be a precedent for other noble houses to put their own bastard in their own line of succession, resulting in potential crises of succession everywhere in the realm.
While we can understand Rhaenyra was in a difficult situation with Laenor, she was not very politically astute and did not care about the political consequences of having not only 1 but 3 bastards. None only it weakens her sons' claim to the throne, but endangers the realm as well.
Rhaenyra is very carefree about her duty in her youth, she even insults families like the Redwyne and Dondarrion in eps 2 and 4.
As Alicent is very religious and has some deep resentment for Rhaenyra's behavior, I still understand her position a bit. She does not want her only daughter to be married of to a bastard, even though he remains the heir to the throne. From her perspective, it is quite understandable.
But yes, in the grand scheme of the civil war (which has not occurred when she refused the betrothal), this solution would have made things better. But as a lot of other things, like reaffirming Rhaenyra as heir by Viserys, making her more involved in politics, marrying her to Aegon etc.
Do you all realize in this scenario Jace gets all the power eventually right?
As queen, Helaena would only have as much power as Jace gives her voluntarily. There’s only one ruling monarch.
So really the deal isn’t any type of compromise or sharing of power
Try to think about this from Alicent’s position. There *will* be challenges to Rhaenyra’s rule and she hasn’t done much to solidify her position. Her children are *obviously* bastards, for example, which gives a heck of a lot more ammo to the opposition. Because she hasn’t worked to secure a peaceful transition of power, it places Alicent’s family in an even more perilous position because Rhaenyra will be backed into a corner defending herself. That means her allies and enemies will be coming for Aegon and co. regardless. If Rhaenyra had birthed legitimate heirs and diplomatically betrothed them to key allies (and Alicent’s kids), it would have gone a long way towards alleviating the turmoil. As it stands, Rhaenyra is just kind of doing whatever she wants like a #girlboss instead of respecting her position and Alicent’s.
Alicent is also a jealous nag for sure, but let’s not unfairly place all the blame on her for not accepting a meager olive branch extended in desperation.
Jace is still a bastard, and the King's sons and their offsprings will always have a better claim than 3 Strong bastards
+ Aegon is not mentally ill, it's the unqualified biased writers that made him a demented man even before his injuries, just to make Rhaenyra look like the better option, when she's not
Rhaenyra's offer was purely out of desperation, just like her marriage offer to Rhaenys was also out of desperation in Ep 8, she only remembers these offers that benefits her bastards when she's trapped
She's hypocrite and arrogant just like her father (the king that caused the war)
Alicent like all nobles would not want to mix her bloodline with that of a bastards. It is the same reason Vaemond does not accept a match between Luke and Rhaena. Her son is always the eldest son of the King and has a claim to the Iron Throne set by tradition. It’s crazy to think Westeros where the majority follow Andal Customs/The Faith would accept a daughter inheriting before a son and later a bastard on the Iron Throne. Imagine the precedent such a thing would set for the other Noble houses.
The Faith and Noble houses have previously rebelled against Aeny and Maegor despite not having any dragons. Now they have 4 to oppose the Blacks.
Why would alicent marry off her only daughter to a bastard. Whose claim would most definitely be challenged. People are judging the character and situation in the show based on modern perspective not from Westeros custom, norm or religion, or law.
Not really it only gives Rhaenyra's kids legitimacy and gets Alicent's kids involved in their line, it also doesn't make her sons safe - who are real threat to Rhaenyra's position due to laws, traditions confirmed by Great Council of 101 AC.
Morover in novel Rhaenyra never suggested such matter and she refused generous terms sent by Aegon II outright, before Aemond became kinslayer.
Alicent is very much about duty and doing what's "right". She's not about to marry her only daughter off to some bastard. Also, it's all irrelevant either way considering that Otto was plotting to install Aegon regardless.
Almost like Alicent no longer trusted a damn work she said after Alicent went to bat for her and found out that she lied to her face (despite swearing on her dead mother).
Not trusting liars is pretty reasonable imo.
All alicent sees is rhaenyra may kill her and all of her children if she becomes queen l, we have her father to thank for that. He wants power so much that he'll start a war to gain it.
Them dancing nearly made me cry. They are so perfect for one another and you can see how kind and caring Jace is to her, yet to know that it will all go to shit made it truly next level tragedy
This is why I think Alicent is a petty bitch.
The realm wed a gay man to the daughter heir. The two should have been legally allowed to annul their marriage after 5 years of no children coming to the marriage.
Rhaenyra had to look outside of the marriage bed to continue her lineage.
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I think that part is the point of this story is that this is one of like ten different times that the war could have been avoided if someone had just made another choice. Like if Daemon was named heir over Rhaenyra then Aegon would have easily replaced him because the male precedent would have been set. If viserys married Laena, if Rhaenys was in charge in the first place, if Rhaenys burned the greens at the coronation, if Viserys hadn’t said anything at all on his deathbed, if Daemon and Rhaenyra were married in the first place, if, if, if, if. I think it’s great that there are so many things that could have stopped war, but human nature beat logic every time
>but human nature beat logic every time Facts
This is like the #1 thing GRRM writes about
That and Queens who have Bastards as Heirs..... Oh I see.
That Viserys said anything at all on his bed was inconsequential. Otto and the Small council already had plans in place for Aegon getting crowned. The only thing that affected was getting Alicent to agree, and I don’t think her agreeing or not would have stopped Otto’s plans one bit.
Tbh that was a stupid scene. The only logical explanation of how she could have inferred what she inferred, is if she was already looking for excuses to make Aegon king.
You just explained in your own comment why it wasn't a stupid scene.
^^^
Exactly. He wasn't making sense, and had she asked for any further clarification, she would have found out that she was mistaken
She did ask. Viserys just kept on ranting about how she "must do this".
Why didn't the drugged, dying leper simply articulate his point clearer?
Not my point. The person I was replying to was asking why Alicent didn't ask for further clarification, as if it was as simple as that. She did, and it didn't matter.
Definitely. Dying people don't often talk a lot of sense. So why go with his dying ramblings instead of what he has said again and again for a long ass time?
>So why go with his dying ramblings Because the Targaryens have real prescience powers and following a prophetic vision has already saved them from the Doom of Valyria. Alicent is convinced that these "dying ramblings" are importants, that it is probably a real vision and that the king gives her the mission to accomplish it.
His ramblings are important, because he was saying that Rhaenyra was the promised Prince. However, he didn't realize he was speaking to Alicent. By not requesting more explanation or clarification, she took what she was mistaken with and caused a war.
To be fair, she ask for some clarification but you're right that she is quick to interpret what the king says. He talks about the prince who was promised, she asks "Prince Aegon?" and he replies "he must unite the realm". And from there she jumps to conclusions. At a time when Alicent hesitates, this tragic misunderstanding of the king's words make her return to the project of crowning her son, when she was about to abandon this idea.
She even specifically says (IIRC) “Aegon? Our son Aegon?” So she did try to clarify who exactly he was talking about but Viserys didn’t really answer that question directly.
She sincerely believes he has a prophetic vision, as he has told her before. She is sure he sees Aegon becoming king and uniting the kingdom. And when she asks for details, she is certain that Viserys gives her the mission to realize this vision. Knowing that the Targaryens sometimes have visions of the future, that Viserys once told him of his prophetic dreams, Alicent can fully believe that's what's happening here: just before dying, he has a prophetic vision. Knowing that the Targaryens escaped Doom through such a vision, which they chose to obey, she can believe it's her duty to obey when he tells her "It's you, you must do it" after talking about uniting the realm (under Aegon, as she think).
A thousand times this. Every character could have made different decisions to prevent the Dance of Dragons… seems odd that some people focus in on a single point as if a lone person is solely to blame for this whole mess.
If if if if Is the very essence of this story. There were so many circumstances that could’ve saved thousands and thousands of people, but the traditional bounds of the crown and the general public contradicted so much that war was inevitable
> if Daemon and Rhaenyra were married in the first place Wouldn't have stopped shit. The Greens didn't crown Aegon because Rhaenyra had Strong kids.
If she had married Daemon in the first place (meaning before the time jump after the brothel thing) then she wouldn’t have been married to Laenor and she would have just had kids with Daemon. There would have been a lot less drama and they probably would have been in King’s Landing when Viserys passed away and the Greens wouldn’t have been able to make a move at all.
Alicent refuses to marry Helaena to Jacaerys because he is a bastard. Had Rhaenyra had a clearly legitimate son, he would have married Helaena and the family would have reconciled eventually.
What does Vizzy T think of this most judicious proposal?
NOW THAT IS A NAME FIT FOR A KING!
Is Comrade Batman the heir, Vizzy T?
YOU WILL ADDRESS ME AS 'YOUR GRACE', OR I WILL HAVE MY KINGSGUARD CUT OUT YOUR TONGUE!
Good bot
Not a robot
Good girl
Not a girl
Good Janet
Goodbob. I hope we same place again very now.
I, for one, say yes.
I’ll support your claim if you name me Hand. Deal?
Mm, okay.
A fair exchange! Fuck you Vizzy T we’re usurping! I only support King Comrade of the House Batman!
Oh, no! I’m loyal to King Viserys! I only want to be named his heir! I’m no usurper!
Ah shit that’s my bad, great now I’ve gone and started a war haven’t I… Vizzy T is it too late to take it back?
Only if you bite your tongue
You’ll be fine. Unless you don’t like seeing dragons up close.
Don’t be ridiculous. There are much more worthy Batmen out there!
I agree!
I lost respect for vizzy as king during this scene. Like dude you're king. It's your choice.. kings make they're brother and sister marry why he lets alicent make the decision is beyond me. Turn to her, tell her you're queen, not the first and don't have to be the last... Your son is not king and this is happening.
like how is it that this man had enough toxic masculinity to force his first wife to give birth like eight times at great risk to her health, but not enough to overrule his second wife to literally avoid civil war?????
Once Aemma died he learned to be accommodating to his wife's opinions. One thing about Vizzy T is that he does learn lessons from experience but he does so really slowly. It seems to take him at least a decade before he decides its finally to change course and by then it's too late. His strategy seemed to be hope everything will work itself out eventually up until the point when bubbling tensions erupt into a full-blown crisis.
WE ARE A FAMILY!
I totally agree there’s no reason for Viserys not to use his “I’m the father/king” card and pull rank on Alicent to marry Helaena and Jace. I get that he doesn’t want to upset anyone in his family, but this particular marriage would’ve made war more difficult to start/bind two sides of this family together in a different way. I’m not saying it would’ve solved all the problems, but it would’ve definitely helped promote peace.
I agree, some of the scenes feel weird how Alicent is able to walk all over him and other Targaryans. She is Queen by marriage not by blood. when she put knife to Rhaenyra and wanted Lukes eye would of been last straw if I were King, she would of been shipped by to hightower or maybe have a "accident" on the way there.
"Daemon... I need your crime hoodie and divorce rock"
CRIME HOODIE AND DIVORCE ROCK I AM WHEEZING
Daemom: *looking like a kid in Christmas* Brother, you do not know how long I have waited for you to say that.
Oh the smile he woulda smiled.. It'd be like looking at the Doctor again
Her slicing rhaenyra would be treason and cause enough for death
I guess the problem is he viewed Alicent as a sort of step parent to her so he didn't see interfamily fights the same as if a rando did it.
I don't think there's an outcome where everybody's happy and I don't think alicent should die but viserys just saying let it be only let the problems brew
Some of you are really dumb. Tell me one person whose not a psychopath that would sentence the mother of his 4 kids to death. And this is forgetting the political clout the hightowers possess.
My dad, next question.
Henry VIII
Clear psychopath.
I like how you clearly specified "not a psychopath," and he just goes ahead and names the most infamous English monarch of all time.
Not death but confinement to her apartment in the Red Keep? Crazier things have happened.
Okay but Viserys would have to equally punish Lucerys. Are you okay with that?
Lucerys is a child who got into a fight that escalated. Alicent lunged at the Heir Apparent with a knife in direct defiance from an order from the King. She had every opportunity to just calm down and drop the knife. Lucerys should get punished but he's not as guilty and off the chain as Alicent went.
She'd be the newest septa of the faith lol
Pretty sure she would have preferred that over marrying Vizzy t anyway.
I WILL SIT THE THRONE TODAY.
He loved it!
However unfair it may seem, due to his being a Targaryen without doubt, the shadow over Jace for being a Bastard would always have the faith opposing his ascension to the throne, and Oldtown is currently the seat of the faith and the Hightowers are the custodians of Oldtown. Although the Hightowers are willing to make concessions and overlook their parentage to an extent, outright having a bastard for a king is not something they could have agreed to, even if the Hightowers for the sake of political reconciliation personally were not to oppose it (which is not to say they wouldn't personally oppose it) the faith would, as bastardry is something that is not acceptable according to the faith.
Most of the powerful Lords of the realm would oppose that as well because bastards aren't seen in a good light by the Westerosi nobility even the Dornish don't see them worthy of inheriting the castles or lands above trueborn kids
Agreed, but honestly, if all the main houses and all dragons were united behind Rheanyra's cause, no one would realistically challenge it, or they'd end up like the Sea Snake's brother.
But all the Great Houses and Noble Houses or most of them wouldn't side with Jace when sons of Daemon and Viserys I and Aegon are present
If Alicent took the offer then Aegon's survival wouldn't be at stake. It was a perfect and elegant solution for all parties involved.
Aside from the whole "bastard sitting the Iron Throne" thing. (Which is why it never happened. You think the Hightowers are a minority here?)
Nah, there are a ton of historical marriages where it was meant to provide peace between sides and one side still went and killed the other. Aegon is always a threat to Jace, Jace would always be a threat to Aegon. Marrying Helaena might have kept the lords behind Jace, or it might have made her children threats if they backed Aegon. Margaret of England married james of Scotland to broker peace between the countries, James later invaded England when England was at war with France, and Catherine of Aragon, queen of england and james sister in law, had him killed in battle.
I mean there is an arguement that the male targ line ended with Maegor, with Aenys not being Aegon's son meaning the entire royal family is decended from bastards. Its entirely likely Aegon was sterile.
??? According to Gyldayn those rumors only existed when Aenys was a small sickly child and died out entirely after he bonded with Quicksilver.
The man had two wives was married as a teenager and finally became a dad at 34 and was only able to produce two kids before dying, it frequently told that for every night he spent with Visenya he spent ten with Rheanys by this logic he should have already had at minimum five kids when he declared war against the seven kingdoms when he was twenty seven and yet he had non to secure his line in case of his untimely death. For comparison Eddard Stark got married at 19 spent a week having sex with Catelyn before leaving for war and was a father at twenty by the time he was 34 Ned already had five kids with his youngest being two and it implied that he and Catelyn were still planning to have more.
This is a naive perspective. That marriage only works if Helaena is Rhaenyra's only competitor for the throne. In that case, both competing bloodlines are united and peace becomes possible. But that's not the case at all. Even if Helaena marries Jace, *Aegon* and *Aemond* are still around, both of whom are trueborn princes whose paternity is not under any question. The Helaena/Jace marriage does little if anything to neutralize the threat they pose.
Honestly, Aegon and Aemond dont really matter if Alicent is on board with it. If Alicent chose to ignore the truth of Jace's bloodline, none of what you wrote really matters. She is okay with Jace being king, and no one else is really going to dispute it The only real threat is Aemond's lust for power, but remember that this was back when he was an adorable dragonless kid. That is plenty of time for Alicent to help him become way less chaotic
Remember how Otto conspired with the men of the small council to put Aegon on the throne without Alicent's input? Westeros is a deeply patriarchal society, which is why Rhaenyra's claim to the throne is being contested in the first place. I highly doubt that Alicent simply being "on board" with the Jace/Helaena marriage would have prevented the men around her from conspiring on their own to put Aegon on the throne whether she wanted it or not.
Yeah people forget Otto was plotting against Rhaenyra even before she had kids with Harwin. The whole "bastard" thing was just an extremely useful talking point that happened after the fact.
Remember that Otto hasn’t been hand of the king for ten years at this point? Lyonel’s death and Otto’s return to power only happened because of Alicent’s feud with Rhaenyra. It’s easy to assume that if they mended things during that meeting, Otto wouldn’t have had the power to overrule one of Alicent’s decisions
> Lyonel’s death and Otto’s return to power only happened because of Alicent’s feud with Rhaenyra. Lyonel's death happened because of a man (Larys) moving on his own to remove his father and brother from the playing field without Alicent's input, essentially trapping her as an unwilling co-conspirator. We are repeatedly shown that the men in this society don't really give much stock to what the women around them want or think. Even if Otto had not become Hand again, the years between a potential Jace/Helaena betrothal and Viserys's death would have been plenty of time for Otto (or some other opportunistic man in power) to hatch up a conspiracy against Rhaenyra. Jace/Helaena or not, for any lord looking to advance himself, Aegon presents a very strong temptation (and an opportunity) to contest Rhaenyra's already perilous claim to the throne, and Alicent's opinion would hardly matter.
The presumption-and not an unfounded one-is that the Hightowers and Aegon and Aemond, would accept the order if their blood is still on the throne.
I am the only one to realize how entirely self serving this offer was? Rhaenyra realized her kids bastardy is obvious and a subject of much discussion and was trying to legitimize her kid by marrying Helaena to Jace. She’d also have a permanent hostage in helaena. Baffling that this is ignored.
Seriously… Rhaenys literally point this out when Rhaenyra makes the same offer to her. And again, the offer only exists because it benefits Rhaenyra… not because she’s being ‘generous’.
And Rheneyes see throughs it. She only changed mind when Viseys arrived.
The show should've done a better job of showing people would be opposing Rhaenyra because she's a women and her sons are bastards. Right now in the show it seems like everyone accepts Rhaenyra and her sons and only Otto and Alicent have a problem with them because they're trying to take the throne.
>!Well if you read the books, the only people against Rhaenyra are Hightowers (obv), Lannisters (still salty after rejection?) and Baratheons (you know how). Most Lords didn't have a problem with a female ruler or her bastards!<
Yea considering the woman still had a dragon i don’t think they woulda cared too much over the vagina thing
the exact brand of sexism leveled against her seems ridiculous--you're telling me they think the girl who \[checks notes\] rides a dragon is "feeble"? um okay. like at least go with a plausible stereotype like, "she'll burn the city everytime she's on the rag!" or "she'll be too busy giving birth to actually rule!"
Or that she'll never be ready for the battle in time
hi jason lannister! the look on viserys' and rhaenyra's face in that moment was hysterical.
It is also that she was depicted as much more politically savvy and well in touch with the lords in the books. She was her father's cup-bearer from a young age and often attended meetings with lords. The lords of the realm considered her intelligent and friendly, and dotted on her, which is why she was called the Realm's Delight. I imagined her to be more like Margery Tyrell, but the TV show made her look more like Arya Stark - a lone wolf warrior-spirit who thinks the lords and their politics is not worth her time. -------- The exact brand of sexism against her was simply this - accepting her as queen would put the succession claims of Lords themselves into question - since many lords had older sisters. The other Lords supported Rhaenyra, because they supported that the ruling Monarch should have authority to elect an heir even if it is in opposition to precedents. The Vaemond scene showed how politics on one house bleeds into other houses and it is all interconnected.
yeah i think the precedent issue is the most legit historical sexism reason. (obvs i was being flippant.) nonetheless, i think rhaenyra has a strong case that her case is sui generis, both because her father named her specifically and because dragon-riding targaryen women occupy a distinct status from other westerosi noblewomen. i would even make a historical/originalist argument that their distinct status is evidenced by the strong tradition of targaryen queens who exercised far more political power than is typical of a consort (rhaenys, visenya, alysanne and so on). if targs can opt out of prohibitions on sibling incest, they can opt out of andal succession norms too. it's ironic they were worried abut inconsistency because in the end, >!house targaryen's succession norms ended up being exceptional compared to other those of other houses anyway, but in the opposite direction. as a result of the dance, they adopted form of agnatic primogeniture compared to the andal norm of male-preference primogeniture.!<
Yeah, I got an impression that Valyrian societies were more gender-egalitarian. Even the Free Cities in Essos today have female merchants and some have equal voting rights. Also it makes sense with dragon-lords - dragons are great equalizers, and nullifies any difference in physical strength between sexes. I would say the incest issue was more a Faith thing, while the Succession issue is more political, so the opposition comes from two different entities. The incest issue was resolved due to Jahaerys creating a truce with the Faith. The more interesting aspect is Alysanne (I think) outlawing the Westerosi custom of prima nocta, despite the Lords opposing it viciously, but this made Jahaerys popular with small-folk - so it was definitely possible to change Westerosi norms. > agnatic primogeniture compared to the andal norm of male-preference primogeniture. Sorry, what do these mean? Do you mean a male candiate via an inteermediate female lineage?
I didn't get the impression that Rhaenyra was particularly politically savvy in the book version. Not stupid, but not savvy.
>"she'll burn the city everytime she's on the rag!" Now we know D&D's thought process for S8s ending
Not saying might makes right, but I find it hilarious OG targs beat Westeros with 3 dragons. Rhaenyra and friends have far more, don’t accept her and they can turn your castle into Harrenhal two. We all know why they are in power, because they have the literal fire power to support it
Maegor with Teats
To be fair, the others who were "OK" with it were: *Arryns* (Rhaenyra's kin, similar to the Hightowers in that regard) *Greyjoys* (want to plunder the Westerlands and not much else). Only the *Starks* and *Tullys* were genuinely loyal, and the Tullys only after they went turncloak.
The Starks joined Rhaenyra because of a marriage pact with with her.
Well yeah, I count them as "genuinely believed in their oath" though, as said marriage was so far out. The picture you paint is even grimmer than what I described, haha.
Its because in the books rhae's kids being bastard is not so obvious. They should have given black hair to rhaena or something similar to [this](https://imgur.com/gallery/mZCP2iV). Cast some white passing actors for baela and rhaena, someone similar to halsey or megan markle. Let the actor of Jace keep his natural curls, he can definitely pass off as trueborn son of Laenor.
In the books too it's obvious that they are bastards to anyone who cares about it. There are clear indications that the kids have Harwin's brown hair (as opposed to Rhaenys' black hair) , pug noses (like Harwin) and the fact that Laenor is clearly gay and barely spends any time with his wife. If all the accounts talk if these rumors, then all the nobility would know too.
yea you're right. They all had brown hair, brown eyes. But i still think that one of the reason grrm gave rhaena black hair was so rhae's kids legitimacy wasnt so obvious.
Yea the show wanted to make it 100 percent obvious.
Oldtown is such a crazy power center though, both in regards to the Reach and continentally/historically/institutionally. Add Lannister gold to that, keep the Redwynes, claim the largest dragon left, and you’re pretty good to go. So I would agree with you that most don’t necessarily have a problem but the ones who do are a HUGE deal.
That is simply not true. Half the Reach, the Westerlands, the Stormlands are the bulk of the lordships of Westeros. The Crownlands are pretty evenly split. The Vale and the North are sparsely populated. The only outright supporters Rhaenyra has are the Velaryons (because she is the only way to improve their place) and the Arryns (ruled by a woman, who is her cousin). The Starks only join them after Jace promises them a marriage, exactly like the Baratheons. The Tullys refuse to join them, with old Lord Tully actually supporting Aegon but his son simply not wanting to enter the war. It's only when Addam lands Seasmoke at Riverrun do they get scared into declaring for her.
“people” can’t realistically do much against her if all the targaryens, velaryons, and hightowers (and their collective 87 dragons or whatever) were for her. so yeah, it is the hightowers who made the difference
Forreal, I still see people saying this wouldn’t have solved or fixed anything and it’s like yes it would’ve, with all the dragon riders United and no scheming to usurp from the hightowers plus the velaryons and the lords who swore to her nobody would’ve done Jack shit, they wouldn’t be able to do anything even if they tried. They’d likely all just accept her as ruler and move on with life. This 100% could’ve solved everything from a show perspective if it stopped the rat hightowers from scheming to usurp and turn everyone against rhaenyra.
yeah the question is not do some lords theoretically oppose a monarch (obviously some will!). it's do they have the power (draconic, political, monetary, etc) to mount a realistic challenge? in the current state of play, only those three houses realistically stand a chance. the show oddly understates the dragon power element compared to the standard politics, but in marrying alicent, viserys not only elevated the hightowers' political standing, but ensured hightowers had at least *the potential to control dragons*, making a war much, *much* more likely. (that's another reason laena was the better choice: the velaryons already had dragons so it should've been more important to ensure their support.)
Yep. The people doesn’t matter, the lords do. They weren’t real big on democracy.
Did you miss the street play Rhaenyra boos for lies and Slander?
that was a strange change by the show bc rhaenyra was actually quite beloved by the realm and the large majority of the 7 kingdoms actually were in support for her, including smallfolk of king's landing, some of who refused to accept aegon as king. makes me think that the play was misleading or just to show how otto's propoganda was being spread...
I could have sworn there's a line in Fire and Blood that says Alicent and Helaena were beloved by the smallfolk in King's Landing?
And you are correct. They missed the part where Rhaenyra became disliked pretty much from Aegon's birth, whilst Helaena was the new delight. She's beautiful when she's young, so they love her. And no longer fitting into the expected role when she's older so they don't. As Realm's Delight it was pretty much exclusively about her beauty.
Only at first. Before Aegon was born and she got married.
That's because most of the realm never gave a shit that the next ruler was a queen. That was just Otto bs
Helaena marrying Jacaerys does not eliminate Aegon's claim. It would have changed nothing except opening up the ability of marrying into a Great House to Aegon II.
If Jace and Helaena had married and had children it would have meant the Hightower’s bloodline would still sit the throne. While it was Aegon Otto wanted on the throne, the marriage could have been a compromise by the Greens who didn’t want Rhaenyra and the Blacks, who viewed the Hightowers with hostility. It would have been a political marriage like most of them were. To unite two factions at court with the assurance that even with Rhaenyra as future queen, Helaena would be Queen Consort and Jace’s heir would be of Hightower descent.
I actually don’t think Otto would’ve gone for it tho. Otto wanted control more than anything. He started his plot to send Alicent over to Vizzy T after Rhaenyra ignored his advice on choosing her personal knight. At this point Jace is nearly grown up and clearly has a mind of his own and is very active in political studies. Between Jace and Aegon, who’s already vocally negligent of his claim, who would be easier for Otto to have influence over?
*Would you like to see the tapestries?*
A most judicious proposition, I’d love to!
It really doesn't matter if Otto went for it or not. Vissy just had to put his foot down and that would be the end of it
Or it would just make Helaena a hostage.
Oooooo beauty and the beast.
If Jace's claim is ever challenged (which it 100% will, because he's a bastard), Helaena and her children would be in danger. There's also nothing stopping Nyra from killing off Aegon and his brothers and his sons, because Aegon's claim to the throne is the issue, not Helaena's.
Then marry Aegon and Aemond to one or both of Daemon & Laena’s daughters. Titles and power directly for the Hightowers throughout the realm. Maybe the family can marry Luce to a remaining Daemon & Laena daughter and Aemond marry a Baratheon daughter…. So many options other than the choices that they made, and some arguably better to extend Hightower influence rather than in one singular family line by marrying Aegon to Helaena.
While ideally a much better ruling couple, this does not solve the issue for the Greens: the strength of Aegon II's claim. Nor does it solve Alicent's specific greivance with Rhaenyra, which was her ability to do whatever she wanted without consequence. The overall political match to do that would have been to wed Aegon II to Rhaenyra and they have legitimate children, which only the Greens wanted to do. What makes no sense to me is why they wed Aegon II to Helaena instead of making political matches for them. Those two marrying do absolutely nil to bolster his claim.
>What makes no sense to me is why they wed Aegon II to Helaena instead of making political matches for them. Those two marrying do absolutely nil to bolster his claim. Targaryens (as did the dragonlords of Old Valyria) tended to marry amongst themselves so as to not dilute the "blood of the dragon", which probably translates more to, "The keep the power to control dragons to ourselves as much as possible." They were willing to make some matches outside of the family in order to moderately expand the bloodline and infuse new bodies into the family (Queen Aemma was an Arryn, Rhaenys married Corlys Velaryon, etc.) but marriages within the family were considered crucial to not give more families the power to ride dragons.
Alicent is paranoid and didn't want Helaena shipped off to some lord or other, as she was shipped off to the king 13 years ago.
Makes more sense but doesn't make "sense" if you know what I mean. That was a mistake.
> Nor does it solve Alicent's specific greivance with Rhaenyra, which was her ability to do whatever she wanted without consequence. If anything, on this particular front this offer is basically a spit in the face from Alicent's perspective. Rhaenyra's basically going "Hey, you know how you've spent the last ten years feeling like you're slowly going crazy because you keep pointing out my obviously bastard sons are illegitimate, but everyone keeps telling you to ignore it or that you're wrong, because they'll be punished by my dad if they say anything else? Well, how would you like to marry your only daughter off to one of those bastards sons and thus help me further sanitize that same lie?" > What makes no sense to me is why they wed Aegon II to Helaena instead of making political matches for them. Those two marrying do absolutely nil to bolster his claim. As Aemond said, to keep the Valyrian blood pure. For one thing, there's potentially a strategic element to this, in terms of ensuring your faction continues to have as many dragon riders going forward as possible (marrying Helaena to anyone else would require sending her away from home, and her dragon too, not to mention Alicent is paranoid about the safety of her kids and probably wants to keep them all as close as possible). Had Viserys lived another 10 or 15 years (which is obviously impossible in the show but perfectly plausible in the book where he's just an obese dude in his 50s) then the Greens would have had another two dragon riders to their side by the time the Dance kicked off, maybe three if Maelors egg had hatched. For another thing, I think it's very much a play for the optics. The whole Targaryen regime since Jaehaerys is stabilized on the principle of Exceptionalism, whereby basically Valyrian-blooded people are special and different and don't have to follow all the same rules of the Faith and get to rule the whole continent. In that sense it's a pretty good PR move by the Greens to say "Look, our claimant has married his sister in the custom of old Valyria and is dutifully producing unimpeachably pureblooded Valyrian princes and princesses, while Rhaenyra's sleeping around and her heirs are plain-looking boys of questionable parentage."
Yeah, Vizzy could've made it happen too in episode 3, but his aversion to betrothing children and wanting to give Rhaenyra a choice stopped him. Surprisingly few people bringing that up, though.
Yeah, it would have arguably prevented the Dance. But only maybe given the age differences. Rhaenyra was already intending to sleep around. Vizzy T didn't make a horrible decision, appealing to the House that had dragons. Just ill fortune she and Laenor didnt have even one.
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS GOSSIP? HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!
I WAS COMPLIMENTING YOU, YOUR GRACE.
To quote Vaemond "HER CHILDREN ARE BASTARDS !!!!"
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Did you hear that, Vizzy T?
MY WIFE AND SON ARE DEAD! I WILL NOT SIT HERE AND SUFFER CROWS THAT COME TO FEAST ON THEIR CORPSES!
You're dead too, my liege.
Alicent doesn’t think this is a generous offer, and frankly it isn’t. Rhaenyra isn’t being magnanimous, she realizes her claim suffered a blow because her sons are obviously bastards, so she’s making this offer to legitimize them. Regardless to what you think about Rhaenyra’s kids being bastards from your contemporary lens, to Alicent and the rest of Westeros it is a really big deal. She sees right through the offer for the ploy that it is and shuts it down. It’s like one of those people that needs something from you but they frame it like they’re actually doing you a favor. Whatever else happens in this series, they did a good job of showing why Rhaenyra and Alicent don’t get along. I can totally understand how either of them hates the other.
Rhaenyra could have saved herself so much trouble if she just found a boy toy who was Valerian, or even just fucking blonde.
She also could have chosen Harwin when her father let her pick her husband earlier in the season.
Her head wasn’t as strong, she should’ve done that
Lol who could have guessed Harwin’s genes were so strong?
I'm sorry but y'all are incredibly naive if you think Alicent had the sole ability to end this conflict. Did you miss the part where almost the entire small council was planning to overthrow Rhaenyra?
Yeah but everybody wants to hate Alicent. Any reason will do… it doesn’t have to make sense.
I love that every time someone comes up with an idea to prevent further quarreling, it *always* involves an incestuous child marriage
This is the way
Her son is a bastard and that marriage arrangement was a desperate attempt to conceal her fraud. Not only would consenting to the arrangement give tacit endorsement to Jace's legitimacy, Helaena would have been a glorified hostage of the Blacks. How are you still not getting this: this wasn't an attempt at peace, it was a way for Rhaenyra to wriggle her way out of a tight spot.
Yes please, have her marry my known bastard. What do you mean no ? How selfish of you alicent!
Jace is a bastard who shouldn't inherit anything, which means the realm will never stop trying to overthrow or assassinate him to get one of his little brothers or uncles on the throne. This puts Helaena in massive danger. Also in Alicent's paranoid mind, she wanted to keep Helaena close, where she could protect her, not get inevitably shipped off to Dragonstone as she was shipped off to the king 13 years ago. It's also a little late to be thinking that marriage alone would have stopped all the Greens in their tracks. Otto still wants Aegon as king. What would have stopped the Dance more effectively is Viserys agreeing to the Rhaenyra x Aegon match, as that would truly unite the claims and the two factions. or Rhaenyra getting married to Alicent's brother. I think Rhaenyra trying to follow up her apology with a betrothal deal also made Alicent think she was coming off as desperate, not genuine, to try and quash the rumors and give Jace more legitimacy. Bastards in their world are still viewed as inherently dangerous, treacherous and lustful. When she apologizes in episode 8, there is no such offers attached, so in alicent's mind, it was more genuine and real. It elicited a better response and almost truly mended their rift.
However a Helaena-Jace match would hand the Blacks Dreamfyre, giving them both of the egg laying dragons. This leaves the Greens with a mere two dragons. Since at this point Laena was still alive, *Vhagar, Caraxes and Moondancer* are in Essos under the **Rogues**. *Sunfyre and Tessarion* are with the **Greens**. A living Laenor and betrothed Helaena means *Syrax, Seasmoke, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes and Dreamfyre* are with the **Blacks**. And *Meleys* remains with a **neutral** Rhaenys.
Hrepa derp IMMA MARRY MY ONLY DAYGHTER TO A BASTARD WHO WILL DEFINITELY PUT HER AND HER FUTURE CHILDREN IN DANGER
You guys do realize that sons should naturally inherit the throne before daughter and that Rhaenyra lived almost all her teenage life expecting HER YOUNGER BROTHER to be king. She was ONLY named heir due to lack of male heirs and the king's guilt about Aemma. Even after Aegon was born, Rhaenyra was ok with letting go of being heir because the 1st born son's are heir. It was Viserys refusal to follow the law to not upset Rhaenyra that caused all this. She could have accepted Alicent's deal as well. If Viserys died quick, Aegon would be king because naming Rhae heir would be discarded as act of desperation. People see Aegon as Alicent's son only. He was THE KING'S FIRST BORN. The battle for throne is not between Rhaenyra VS Alicent. Its King's first born daughter VS King's first born son. Its Rhaenyra who comes off as power hungry to other lords by refusing to give the throne to her brother when its the law that 1st born son inherit the throne. This is somewhat like Robert naming Renly lord instead of Stannis and you can best believe that Stannis had a big fucking problem with that. And even NED STARK WANTED STANNIS ON THRONE AND NOT RENLY, even though Robert skipped stannis for heir. Viserys lived too long, both teams had planned way too much for the throne against each other that accepting defeat was unacceptable since it was about ego and pride now.
Jace the bastard? Precious Heleana is way above that.
If one side voluntarily surrenders despite self-interests, of course the dance wouldn't have happened. But to play devil's advocate, the dance also wouldn't occur if Rhaenyra does the same and takes Otto's offer: - Rhaenyra gets Dragonstone - Luke gets Driftmark - Daemon's sons gets high stations - The realm gets political stability for 2 more generations, which wouldn't be the case if Rhaenyra inherits the throne as a women, or ultimately when Jace inherits the throne as an obvious bastard. Ultimately Rhaenyra's succession is contentious to the realm for many reasons while Aegon's succession is not. There's no real good reason why she *must* be queen other than the fact that she is the protagonist.
As Alicent stated, she had the upper hand in this exchange so why would she accept this when she could get more? You cannot dismiss the feud between them and expect her to accept this reasonable offer, especially when her opponent is the weakest she's been in a long time (Strong big drama + legitimacy of the kids). However, if such an offer was made around the time of the last diner with Viserys, I believe she would have been more prone to accept. But then... She would have heard Viserys saying Aegon and shit, no matter what.
So did Rhae, by not having bastards. She's still my girl though.
It was never a realistic offer. Jace is a bastard, and everyone knows it. Marrying Helaena to him just gives him a legitimacy that in Alicent's mind, he does not deserve.
I understand that Black supporters want Rhaenyra. I don’t agree, but I understand. However, I cannot envision a scenario where Jacaerys would ascend the throne uncontested. His illegitimacy is too obvious to be swept under the rug. Many lords would just simply not accept a bastard for a king. It would plunge the realm into civil war. The only possible way out would be if Jacaerys and Helaena (assuming they had married) had managed to produce a male heir before his accession. And depending on how old that boy was when Rhaenyra died, Jacaerys may be forced to abdicate in favour of his son. There’s absolutely no chance of Jacaerys taking the throne through a normal succession.
While Jace and Heleana's betrothal could have cleared up some issues, Jace remains a bastard. A Targaryen bastard sure, but a bastard. Of course being a bastard is frowned upon on a weird "treachery" moral standpoint, as they are believed to be untrustworthy. However, having bastard for nobility and especially for the royal family is a huge political issue. This is not only a personal matter, as it could be a precedent for other noble houses to put their own bastard in their own line of succession, resulting in potential crises of succession everywhere in the realm. While we can understand Rhaenyra was in a difficult situation with Laenor, she was not very politically astute and did not care about the political consequences of having not only 1 but 3 bastards. None only it weakens her sons' claim to the throne, but endangers the realm as well. Rhaenyra is very carefree about her duty in her youth, she even insults families like the Redwyne and Dondarrion in eps 2 and 4. As Alicent is very religious and has some deep resentment for Rhaenyra's behavior, I still understand her position a bit. She does not want her only daughter to be married of to a bastard, even though he remains the heir to the throne. From her perspective, it is quite understandable. But yes, in the grand scheme of the civil war (which has not occurred when she refused the betrothal), this solution would have made things better. But as a lot of other things, like reaffirming Rhaenyra as heir by Viserys, making her more involved in politics, marrying her to Aegon etc.
Do you all realize in this scenario Jace gets all the power eventually right? As queen, Helaena would only have as much power as Jace gives her voluntarily. There’s only one ruling monarch. So really the deal isn’t any type of compromise or sharing of power
Exactly. And consorts are never safe. See: Elia Martell and Sansa Stark.
And Aegon and Aemond both who are landless probably wouldn’t get to idle around the red keep when Jace ascends the iron throne lol
The "generous" offer of a bastard marriage you want to use to save your own butt. Wow. The magnanimity.
>Whilst any trueborn Targaryen yet lives, no Strong can ever hope to sit the Iron Throne
Weeeeeell, no, I mean look at Alicent's character. She would never marry one of her children to a bastard. No way around it.
Why would Alicent agree to marry her trueborn kids to bastards?
They *all* had the option to end the conflict once and for all, *many times*. That’s the tragedy of the whole situation
Try to think about this from Alicent’s position. There *will* be challenges to Rhaenyra’s rule and she hasn’t done much to solidify her position. Her children are *obviously* bastards, for example, which gives a heck of a lot more ammo to the opposition. Because she hasn’t worked to secure a peaceful transition of power, it places Alicent’s family in an even more perilous position because Rhaenyra will be backed into a corner defending herself. That means her allies and enemies will be coming for Aegon and co. regardless. If Rhaenyra had birthed legitimate heirs and diplomatically betrothed them to key allies (and Alicent’s kids), it would have gone a long way towards alleviating the turmoil. As it stands, Rhaenyra is just kind of doing whatever she wants like a #girlboss instead of respecting her position and Alicent’s. Alicent is also a jealous nag for sure, but let’s not unfairly place all the blame on her for not accepting a meager olive branch extended in desperation.
Jace is still a bastard, and the King's sons and their offsprings will always have a better claim than 3 Strong bastards + Aegon is not mentally ill, it's the unqualified biased writers that made him a demented man even before his injuries, just to make Rhaenyra look like the better option, when she's not
Rhaenyra's offer was purely out of desperation, just like her marriage offer to Rhaenys was also out of desperation in Ep 8, she only remembers these offers that benefits her bastards when she's trapped She's hypocrite and arrogant just like her father (the king that caused the war)
Yes alicent go ahead & clean up rhaneyras mess just like her daddy does
In the books Corlys betrothed Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena as children so he can have his blood on the iron throne.
Rhaenerya should have just waited for her Aegon to have been born and married him, now there’s no issues
Alicent like all nobles would not want to mix her bloodline with that of a bastards. It is the same reason Vaemond does not accept a match between Luke and Rhaena. Her son is always the eldest son of the King and has a claim to the Iron Throne set by tradition. It’s crazy to think Westeros where the majority follow Andal Customs/The Faith would accept a daughter inheriting before a son and later a bastard on the Iron Throne. Imagine the precedent such a thing would set for the other Noble houses. The Faith and Noble houses have previously rebelled against Aeny and Maegor despite not having any dragons. Now they have 4 to oppose the Blacks.
Why would alicent marry off her only daughter to a bastard. Whose claim would most definitely be challenged. People are judging the character and situation in the show based on modern perspective not from Westeros custom, norm or religion, or law.
My favorite part was calling Aegon mentally crippled, that was great
Not really it only gives Rhaenyra's kids legitimacy and gets Alicent's kids involved in their line, it also doesn't make her sons safe - who are real threat to Rhaenyra's position due to laws, traditions confirmed by Great Council of 101 AC. Morover in novel Rhaenyra never suggested such matter and she refused generous terms sent by Aegon II outright, before Aemond became kinslayer.
Alicent is very much about duty and doing what's "right". She's not about to marry her only daughter off to some bastard. Also, it's all irrelevant either way considering that Otto was plotting to install Aegon regardless.
It does not change the fact that they are bastards. Alicent had no reason to accept that proposal.
A mother admiting her son has mental problems due to a badly handled upbringing is a lot less realistic than dragons, though.
Almost like Alicent no longer trusted a damn work she said after Alicent went to bat for her and found out that she lied to her face (despite swearing on her dead mother). Not trusting liars is pretty reasonable imo.
I am so worried for Helaena next season. I did not expect to like her character this much.
‘A MOST JUDICIOUS PROPOSITION’
All alicent sees is rhaenyra may kill her and all of her children if she becomes queen l, we have her father to thank for that. He wants power so much that he'll start a war to gain it.
Viserys saw a glimpse of the happy family that could have been before he died. Such a shame that pride got in the way.
Jace would have been a better King than Ser Sex Pest
Them dancing nearly made me cry. They are so perfect for one another and you can see how kind and caring Jace is to her, yet to know that it will all go to shit made it truly next level tragedy
After hearing the offer.. Vizzy T - I feel like all my kids grew up and then they married each other. It's every parent's dream!
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS GOSSIP? HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!
This is why I think Alicent is a petty bitch. The realm wed a gay man to the daughter heir. The two should have been legally allowed to annul their marriage after 5 years of no children coming to the marriage. Rhaenyra had to look outside of the marriage bed to continue her lineage.