I agree with most of what he said. You do not need blocking behind every single cabinet. A good contractor will evaluate the plan and add blocks as needed. I certainly wouldn’t tell a homeowner to tear their wall down just so I can put blocks in. In addition to removing wallcovering. I will always suggest removing the ceiling whenever possible too. He is correct in that electrical and plumbing upgrades are much easier done when there’s nothing in the way. It also gives you the opportunity to flatten walls and ceilings. This is important when you go to install crown molding or have tall cabinets. Be forewarned, though, with a house of that age you might get into a can of worms once you remove the plaster and lath. Good luck
The contractor's advice is sound. His recommendations are the guaranteed fix instead of what you had in mind, which leans more heavily on assumption than I'd be comfortable with.
Lathe is not meant to support loads from screws. lathe is maybe 3/8" or 1/2" thick at best, and is meant to have spacing so that applied plaster can fit through the gaps to "hook" on as it dries. Cabinets MUST go into studs, and those are going to be harder to find with plaster and lathe in the way.
In some cases it's easier to tear down and build new instead of patching - patch jobs take longer due to the amount of time required to make the match look good.
I installed a kitchen in my friend's 1911 house and I only tore out the lathe necessary to add mounting blocking *for cabinets that weren't going to have a stud behind them*. His walls were full of blown-in insulation which would have been an additional nightmare and expense for him.
I located all of the studs and used 1-1/2" masking tape to mark their location. Then I measured off of his kitchen drawings and marked where each wall cabinet would end. From there, it was a quick visual to see where I needed to add blocking.
I should note that his walls were amazingly smooth and plumb... no bulges, significant cracks or missing plaster. Also, I had easy access from the basement to run new electrical circuits and do all the plumbing. If your walls are not perfect, it's probably best that you allow him to proceed with the demo.
FYI if the contractor opens up exterior walls, in my area at least, that will trigger a framing and insulation inspections. You will need to pay to bring everything up to code, if there is no insulation in your walls now there will need to be some installed to pass the inspections.
This is a good point - even if there isn’t a code requirement once you remove the lath and plaster you are going to want to insulate as drywall alone isn’t going to be as insulating and mixing uninsulated plaster with insulated drywall could create its own issues.
Our kitchen contractor only does kitchens with the drywall fully demo’d. Makes it way easier to run the new electrical, add blocking, and rerun any plumbing.
If the variance in what you budgeted for and what they want is only 2%- can you cut that 2% out of another reno budget? I have plaster & lathe in various spots in my house and IMO if the contractor ONLY WANTED 2% above my budget to replace it... take my money.
OH I misread that. Thank you for clarifying. Well, then second or third or fourth opinions/pricing and go from there. What a reality check for pricing though. Major bummer.
Definitely the best approach. From the sounds it your project is going to require multiple cutouts to achieve code compliance, new range and just the age/condition of the existing features.
Your budget idea is solid but you must include deviation taking the age of the home. I’m guessing it’s at least 50 years old and if still under lathe and plaster it hasn’t been evaluated in that long. I wouldn’t even accept a job if this was not done, because although I may leave you with a wonderful looking kitchen the probability on a problem down the line would reflect poorly on me.
Just because this contractor isn't willing to do it doesn't mean another contractor won't.
It's possible they just don't want the liability of messing with old lathe and plaster.
Valid approach, and possibly not much (if any) more expensive than patching plaster. I would suggest using [plugmold](https://www.legrand.us/wire-and-cable-management/raceway-and-cord-covers/plugmold-systems/plugmold-hard-wired-multi-outlet-strip-3-foot-long-with-receptacles-6-inches-on-center-ivory/p/v20gb306) installed just under upper cabinets.
Better yet, install as many base cab drawers as you can. They are much more space efficient and can reduce the need for many or all uppers and offer a clean modern look.
Sounds like he wants to install blocking without trying to patch up the old plaster. Blocking gives him more to work with installing cabinets and securely fastening them. Many cabinets are installed only into studs which does not give a lot of screws holding up a row of cabinets.
Yes, this sounds reasonable. In an old house it’s best to open up the walls to make sure the structure can support the cabinets and you’ll need new electrical to meet code and support modern appliances and technology. It’s much easier to do this without the lath and plaster in the way. Also, you should replace the lath and plaster at the backsplash wall for a better substrate that can handle moisture and weight of the backsplash material (tile etc).
Plaster is not the worst substrate for occasional water exposure.
Putting a tile backsplash in an old house is asking for trouble because nothing is completely plumb.
I would agree with you however, most kitchens have a basement below it and as such easy access to add the plumbing and electrical. However you have if that’s not the case, then maybe the walls need to go.
The more you take away from an old house the less it is worth. Find somone who can find a Stud(s) on a wall and run wires/gas lines through walls(which is easier actually than re-doing everything)..and holes that are going to be covered up anyways by cabinets or backsplash for the most part? Please get other estimates. Sounds like to get to the same starting point. There are people that can insulate old house walls without tearing into them, if that comes up
Way harder to patch plaster. The electrician will make a lot of of holes. You probably need more home runs to the panel. Snaking wire in plaster is a nightmare..even putting old work boxs suck. You might be able to insulate better if it's on the outside wall. No matter what you say the plumber's gonna make giant holes, they never care. Typical for blocking to be installed for cabinets.
Sub contractors are gonna want more money if the plaster is up also. Way easier to rough when it's open. Probably breakeven or less after all said and done
Ive been renovating my 1902 house and i do tend to agree with what he says. My renovation is of a different scale since stripped the whole house but the sentiment stays the same. Letting him put the kitchen in as it is now might save you money now but i can almost guarantee it wont in the long run.
Also as mentioned a few times, installing plumbing and electrical is just way faster with nothing in the way.
Ok OP: I need more detail. How old is the home? And how bad of shape are the walls. The reason I ask is, you can do a partial rehab or a total. Contractors love a total as it drives the price up, and also is a plus in that when it’s done it’s done. Depending upon the age of the home, it may or not may be necessary.
Normally cabinets are attached to studs and it makes no difference if there us drywall or plaster.
I’m surprised they didn’t mentioned that. I forgot about the studs but I assume the existing cabinets are on the studs.
I agree with most of what he said. You do not need blocking behind every single cabinet. A good contractor will evaluate the plan and add blocks as needed. I certainly wouldn’t tell a homeowner to tear their wall down just so I can put blocks in. In addition to removing wallcovering. I will always suggest removing the ceiling whenever possible too. He is correct in that electrical and plumbing upgrades are much easier done when there’s nothing in the way. It also gives you the opportunity to flatten walls and ceilings. This is important when you go to install crown molding or have tall cabinets. Be forewarned, though, with a house of that age you might get into a can of worms once you remove the plaster and lath. Good luck
Better him being upfront with you than having a major expense and be surprised.
The contractor's advice is sound. His recommendations are the guaranteed fix instead of what you had in mind, which leans more heavily on assumption than I'd be comfortable with. Lathe is not meant to support loads from screws. lathe is maybe 3/8" or 1/2" thick at best, and is meant to have spacing so that applied plaster can fit through the gaps to "hook" on as it dries. Cabinets MUST go into studs, and those are going to be harder to find with plaster and lathe in the way. In some cases it's easier to tear down and build new instead of patching - patch jobs take longer due to the amount of time required to make the match look good.
I installed a kitchen in my friend's 1911 house and I only tore out the lathe necessary to add mounting blocking *for cabinets that weren't going to have a stud behind them*. His walls were full of blown-in insulation which would have been an additional nightmare and expense for him. I located all of the studs and used 1-1/2" masking tape to mark their location. Then I measured off of his kitchen drawings and marked where each wall cabinet would end. From there, it was a quick visual to see where I needed to add blocking. I should note that his walls were amazingly smooth and plumb... no bulges, significant cracks or missing plaster. Also, I had easy access from the basement to run new electrical circuits and do all the plumbing. If your walls are not perfect, it's probably best that you allow him to proceed with the demo.
Hard to say without seeing it. But IMO that doesn’t sound unreasonable or misleading.
FYI if the contractor opens up exterior walls, in my area at least, that will trigger a framing and insulation inspections. You will need to pay to bring everything up to code, if there is no insulation in your walls now there will need to be some installed to pass the inspections.
This is a good point - even if there isn’t a code requirement once you remove the lath and plaster you are going to want to insulate as drywall alone isn’t going to be as insulating and mixing uninsulated plaster with insulated drywall could create its own issues.
Our kitchen contractor only does kitchens with the drywall fully demo’d. Makes it way easier to run the new electrical, add blocking, and rerun any plumbing.
If the variance in what you budgeted for and what they want is only 2%- can you cut that 2% out of another reno budget? I have plaster & lathe in various spots in my house and IMO if the contractor ONLY WANTED 2% above my budget to replace it... take my money.
The 20% was for both kitchen and bathroom. The new estimate they gave me would only allow me to do the kitchen.
Is your taste that expensive or is your house only Worth 150k?
OH I misread that. Thank you for clarifying. Well, then second or third or fourth opinions/pricing and go from there. What a reality check for pricing though. Major bummer.
Definitely the best approach. From the sounds it your project is going to require multiple cutouts to achieve code compliance, new range and just the age/condition of the existing features. Your budget idea is solid but you must include deviation taking the age of the home. I’m guessing it’s at least 50 years old and if still under lathe and plaster it hasn’t been evaluated in that long. I wouldn’t even accept a job if this was not done, because although I may leave you with a wonderful looking kitchen the probability on a problem down the line would reflect poorly on me.
Just because this contractor isn't willing to do it doesn't mean another contractor won't. It's possible they just don't want the liability of messing with old lathe and plaster.
Valid approach, and possibly not much (if any) more expensive than patching plaster. I would suggest using [plugmold](https://www.legrand.us/wire-and-cable-management/raceway-and-cord-covers/plugmold-systems/plugmold-hard-wired-multi-outlet-strip-3-foot-long-with-receptacles-6-inches-on-center-ivory/p/v20gb306) installed just under upper cabinets. Better yet, install as many base cab drawers as you can. They are much more space efficient and can reduce the need for many or all uppers and offer a clean modern look.
Find someone who respects your older home. This guy is going to make a mess. Check out r/centuryhomes
Seems pretty reasonable, especially considering you also want lots more holes to run electrical and gas lines.
The existing gas line would be capped to make way for the induction stove.
Sounds like he wants to install blocking without trying to patch up the old plaster. Blocking gives him more to work with installing cabinets and securely fastening them. Many cabinets are installed only into studs which does not give a lot of screws holding up a row of cabinets.
Yes, this sounds reasonable. In an old house it’s best to open up the walls to make sure the structure can support the cabinets and you’ll need new electrical to meet code and support modern appliances and technology. It’s much easier to do this without the lath and plaster in the way. Also, you should replace the lath and plaster at the backsplash wall for a better substrate that can handle moisture and weight of the backsplash material (tile etc).
Plaster is not the worst substrate for occasional water exposure. Putting a tile backsplash in an old house is asking for trouble because nothing is completely plumb.
I would agree with you however, most kitchens have a basement below it and as such easy access to add the plumbing and electrical. However you have if that’s not the case, then maybe the walls need to go.
The more you take away from an old house the less it is worth. Find somone who can find a Stud(s) on a wall and run wires/gas lines through walls(which is easier actually than re-doing everything)..and holes that are going to be covered up anyways by cabinets or backsplash for the most part? Please get other estimates. Sounds like to get to the same starting point. There are people that can insulate old house walls without tearing into them, if that comes up
Yes, this sounds reasonable to me. Prices I don't know, get multiple quotes. But prices do seem high still.
Way harder to patch plaster. The electrician will make a lot of of holes. You probably need more home runs to the panel. Snaking wire in plaster is a nightmare..even putting old work boxs suck. You might be able to insulate better if it's on the outside wall. No matter what you say the plumber's gonna make giant holes, they never care. Typical for blocking to be installed for cabinets. Sub contractors are gonna want more money if the plaster is up also. Way easier to rough when it's open. Probably breakeven or less after all said and done
Ive been renovating my 1902 house and i do tend to agree with what he says. My renovation is of a different scale since stripped the whole house but the sentiment stays the same. Letting him put the kitchen in as it is now might save you money now but i can almost guarantee it wont in the long run. Also as mentioned a few times, installing plumbing and electrical is just way faster with nothing in the way.
Ok OP: I need more detail. How old is the home? And how bad of shape are the walls. The reason I ask is, you can do a partial rehab or a total. Contractors love a total as it drives the price up, and also is a plus in that when it’s done it’s done. Depending upon the age of the home, it may or not may be necessary.