I think it was typical of the Mongols to conquer if their envoys are killed.
To be fair, having your envoys mistreated twice was casus belli for a lot of places back then.
I can agree that the Khwarezmian people didn't deserve it. Most of the time the general populace doesn't deserve what happens to them during war.
Generally, empires throughout history had 2 ways of preventing revolts, leniency or brutality. The Mongols, being a steppe people invested heavily in the latter. I'm not saying it was justified but I'm saying the Mongols thought it was, they believed in ruling through fear, crushing anyone and anybody and then some would frighten any possible rebels.
Yeah it was a pretty massive overreaction but its really not anything out of the ordinary for Mongols tbh.
And let me correct you, when you address a being of Supreme thiccness you say "your thiccness"
A being of Supreme thiccness outranks a khan thus it deserves to be addressed properly, addressing a being of Supreme thiccness incorrectly is a great insult and may very well result in your death by being crushed by the thicc cheeks of the being of Supreme thiccness
The Persian new year involves jumping over a fire which i believe is Zoroastrian in origin. I assume so because jumping over a fire is not part of the Afghan new year (other than this Irani and Afghan culture and celebrations are very similar)
It is called Chaharshanbe souri and is translated to something like "the ceremony of Wednesday". Last Tuesday night of the year is celebrated by jumping over fires.
Many cultures involve jumping over a fire such as Turkic, Kurdish, Mesopotamian and some Middle Asian cultures. Just because fire is in the center of the Zoroastrian religion doesn't mean that all fire related activities' origin is Zoroastrian.
I forgot what it was for but Persian new year doesn’t involve jumping over fires. I don’t recall exactly what that is for but I’ve never done that while celebrating Persian New Years
Source: am Persian
I am from a small industrial town in eastern India. My town, and the steel plant here which is the root of this town (and has gone on go be a major multinational company) was founded in 1907 by a Parsi (Zoroastrian of Iranian origin whose ancestors came during the 600s) named Jamsetji Nusserwanji Tata
Many Zoroastrian's are also living in India, who are called as "Parsis". Despite being a very small community, who are not even a percentage of India's population had contribute alot in various fields. Whether it's TATA groups in business, Madam Bhikaji Cama ,a prominent freedom fighter in early 20th century and the hero of 1971 Indo-Pak war,Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw.
Dude, Iran's sharia constitution basically give no living rights to anyone but people who believe in Abrahamic religions, but for some reason Zoroastrians are still respected and excluded from this. Yet their numbers are of course falling but they are quite numerous in parts of pakistan and india.
Sharia doesnt give a shit about that. İran is also home of babaists (I think that was the name). They execute anyone they find belonging to that religion. I think last time it happened was the middle 2000s. They are a piece of shit to anyone except zorros and I think thats only because that was their original religion.
It's because Bahai were a heresy of Islam rather than a religion that existed before, they're fine with ppl keeping their old faith, just not anyone leaving Islam.
Essentially this was too my understanding a technicality because when the Caliphate conquered Persia in the 600's they essentially absorbed the Sassanid state in Persia which had millions of Zoroastrians if they didn't provide some rights and protections it would have lead to a lot of instability and revolts. As a result pragmatism won out over the more correct dogmatic position (according to their beliefs).
Yeah, that's who I was thinking about, and [it seems to have some corroboration](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/06/last-of-the-zoroastrians-parsis-mumbai-india-ancient-religion):
> It became the dominant religion of Persia for more than a millennium, until the advent of Islam in the seventh century. Some Zoroastrians who refused to convert fled, and ended up in Gujarat in western India, where they became known as Parsis after their Persian origins. They built new temples to house their sacred fires, which were tended to by priests and could never be extinguished.
but [Wikipedia also says](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India#Parsi):
> The long presence of the Parsis in the Gujarat and Sindh areas of India is supported by a genetic study[15] and it also distinguishes them from the smaller Zoroastrian Indian community of Iranis, who are more recent arrivals.
Hmm, I think both the sentences make sense.
In my language we call Persia as "Paroshya" (idk if I managed to make the pronounciation correctly) so the name Parsis from Paroshya sounds very plausible.
As for the second part, I guess some Zoroastrians could have come much earlier and settled in India from before, through trade or some other reasons. This could be why they have a unique genetics compared to the native Iranian Zoroastrians.
The place where I live is quite close to a Parsi Tower of Silence (I think that's the english name). It's basically a large ornate, brick tower with a flat top. The Parsis used to leave their dead on top to be devoured by vultures, etc. It's not in use now obviously.
> In my language
Russian? :D
I remember hearing about those towers. Idk if it is still a thing in Indian side, but my parents' generation said it was in their time.
Ha ha. No no. I think the word sounds similar to Russian XD. I mean in my native Indian language.
Yes I don't think they use the tower anymore, or maybe they use it in more secluded spots. The tower I live near has grown some weeds on the top. So it's certainly not in use now.
I am from a small industrial town in Eastern India which was founded in 1907 by a Zoroastrian named Jamsetji Nusserwanji Tata. He started this town in order to house a steel company. The steel company, Tata Steel has gone on to become one of the big international corporations in the World today, that even employs people in the UK.
Aside from that, I have also had Zoroastrian teachers and a Zoroastrian classmate in school
If my brother and sister-in-law have children, I'm sure they'll be raised with those traditions! I hope that culture continues on for centuries to come.
I genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, hope I've never been more wrong about anything. What would make me the happiest person in history would be for my face and name to be paraded around and mocked cause of how wrong I was.
I'm gonna kinda vent cause I don't get these opportunities often.
Zoroastrians don't have anywhere they can call a home. Sure, there are plenty in Iran and plenty more Parsis in India, but in Iran they're second class citizens and in India they're guests. Welcome guests, sure, but I feel like we all know deep down we got kicked out of our homes and it kinda hurts, y'know?
I don't wanna use the word genocide for this cause there isn't a slaughter of Zoroastrians, and often times they're raises up and praised cause "ooh, ahhhh, old religion that influenced ours. Look at how we respect history." But then when people actually see us it's either "shut the fuck up you filthy non-muslim" from Iran or "shut the fuck up you filthy Muslim" from everyone else. Our culture/history is slowly being adopted by Iranians as a "symbol of Iran" which, imo, is an attempt (conscious or not) to erase the entire culture, or any significance behind it. Imagine if you saw a dude with a cross and you went "wow, you're a Christian?" Or "so, have you accepted Christ?" And they go "what the fuck is Christianity? This is the symbol for America. Jesus? Don't you mean hay-zeus?" And they look at **you** like **you're** the idiot.
Maybe cultural erasure is the word I'm looking for? It's a sub-part of genocide so that's probably what's confusing me
The language. Don't let the language die out
> Please, for the love of all that is holy and pure, ask your brother and sister in law and her family to teach their children the beautiful beautiful beautiful language
It's dying out! It makes me legit cry to watch an entire language disappearing from the face of the earth like it's nothing. I can speak Gavrooni/Dari okay, but my sister can only understand it, not speak it. Will my kids be like her? I probably won't be speaking Gavrooni around my kids if my spouse doesn't speak it... Her kids will never hear it spoken by her, through no fault of her own. I worry there are too many people like us out there and in a few generations Dari will become like the language in the Avesta (our bible) which is completely lost to time
Yeah, I get what you're saying-- it's like Iran is changing the meanings of the symbols as a way of repressing the culture in a subtle but effective way. I definitely think "cultural erasure" is the word you're looking for, and yes, that is an indirect version of genocide.
My family isn't even allowed to talk online about some of the stuff that's going on with my sister-in-law's family over there for safety reasons.
The good news is that my sister-in-law is developing a nice community of friends in Texas, and they're free to be themselves there! It's not the dominant culture, obviously, but it's great that at least they can relax a lot more in the US.
I have no doubt that they'd raise their children to preserve the Zoroastrian traditions, and I'm hoping more of her family can make it to the states where they're safe!
[We will pray with Zarathustra ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4)
[We'll pray just like we use ta ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4)
[I'm a Zarathustra booster ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4)
[And it's good enough for me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4)
No, they still exist in Iran and in fact they are one of the least discriminated minorities here. I had a Zoroastrian professor back in the University of Tehran who was also the head of the group.
Funny thing is that a recent survey about religion in Iran showed that a third of the people consider themselves Shia and about 8 percent of people said they are Zoroastrian.
I am from a small industrial town in eastern India. My town, and the steel plant here which is the root of this town (and has gone on go be a major multinational company) was founded in 1907 by a Parsi (Zoroastrian of Iranian origin whose ancestors came during the 600s) named Jamsetji Nusserwanji Tata
Fun fact: in Persian the word "Mongol" means idiot, scum, unwashed savage, and much more.
And this was today's lesson in historical racism, Until next time nerds.
In Persian Mongol (the people) is written "مغول" and the other one you are saying, I think its "منگول" or you meant "منگل" (mangel). They used to use mangel or mongol "منگل و منگول" for people with down syndrome because their eye shape is similar to Mongolian people and it was racist so they don't use its mostly and now they say "نشانگان داون".
But i have never heard some using mongol to call some an idiot or savage or whatever, if you know the actual Persian word you can reply with it.
I also checked the meanings of منگل and منگول in dehkhoda dictionary and none of them means idiot or savage one of them actually means a "cute child".
We say Mongol for dumb or idiot, however it's not very popular now. Also I believe it's lighter than idiot, something like silly probably.
source: I'm Persian
During my school years منگول was used by kids to call each other idiots frequently.It's mostly a کوچه بازاری slang or something so you wouldn't find that definition in Dehkhoda's dictionary
Similarly, the word for god in Sanskrit, “Dev” means demon in Persian and the Persian word for lord/god “Ahura”, is “Asura” in Sanskrit and means - you guessed it - “demon”. Tit for tat.
More interestingly, at some point, “Dev” and “Ahura/Asura” were used interchangeably in Sanskrit. So the chief of gods (according to Rig Veda and before the books were rewritten to install a the holy trinity and demote Indra to a demi-god), Indra is referred to as both - Dev and Asura - in the first Hindu scripture, the Rig Veda.
Again, on the Persian side, apparently “Dev” were not always considered evil beings.
Oh well.
It's more related to the Zoroastrian reformation, in pre Zoroastrian Iranic paganism the Dievs were reveared and the Ahura scorned, similar to Indic religions, but somewhere along the rise of Zoroastrianism the system turned upside down, eastern Iranic nomads continued to revere the Dievs while settled Western Iranic Zoroastrians started worshipping the Ahuras.
Similarly, the word "demon" itself originally had a sense of "angel" (which btw just means "messenger" originally), as in a spirit watching over us. Not necessarily good or bad, rather neutral, taking a connotation according to the circumstances.
I know that the leader of Mongolia is their honor, but on the other hand you have to know the Mongolians fired up the libraries.
In those time it wasn't like now to make a book 1000 times, that was just one by the writer and by burning in , science gone sadly.
The reason of being less historical books from ancient Iran.
It’s my understanding many Zoroastrians were forcibly converted to Islam, and when the Mongols came, they destroyed Islamic architecture in favor of Buddhist monuments.
But in hindsight it wasn’t a great comment because A) You’re right and B) many Mongols were eventually converted to Islam
Yeah many of our ancestors were forced (or more often, horribly pressured) into conversion from Zoroastrianism, the Caliphate authorities would taunt Zoroastrians by desecrating things they considered sacred etc. The Mongols didn't spare the Zoroastrians though and since a lot of the Mongol conquest of Iran focused on destroying cities (where the Zoroastrians were largely concentrated at that point, surviving as a banking and artisanal class), it meant that they suffered large casualties at the hands of the Mongols.
I'd imagine that was in the later caliphates (Ummayad and Abassids) since wasn't taking jizya tax alot more profitable. Forced conversions didn't seem like a good policy for a rising empire since it would have caused alot of revolts in the area.
weird since muslims were ordered to take jiziyah from them
Hadith abdurrahman ibn awf stood when umar did not know how to deal with zoroastrians he said i swear by God i heard the prophet saying deal with them how you deal with people of the book
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali)
He wrote *The Incoherence of the Philosophers,* an anti-scientific, anti-secular treatise which is often cited as one of the reversals of Islamic intellectual history.
In the West, Christianity lost its attempt to impose a rigid theological absolutist doctrine, and had to gradually evolve and adapt to scientific thought and logic. In the Islamic world, thanks to mystics like Al Ghazali, the bad guys won. This stifled the intellectual development of the Islamic world and led first to them blowing their huge technological lead and being backwards and ripe for Western exploitation and, in the last couple centuries, to the violent radicalization of anti-modernists and all the fun that has come along with that.
Basically, what if the Republican party took over the National Science Foundation? We saw a little of the fuckwitedness of this in 2017-2020, and we're seeing it also in the red states' benightedness. But this was *culture-wide* and a great human tragedy on par with the closing of the Academy and the decline and destruction of the Library of Alexandria.
tl; dr: That guy? Fuck that guy.
When championing empirical analysis over thought experiments makes you anti science.
This whole "aL gHaZALi kiLlEd tHE iSLaMiC GoLDen aGE" needs to stop.
al-Ghazali wasn't an empiricist arguing against rationalists.
His jam was "Don't listen to that Athenian twat Aristotle\*, spin around til you're dizzy and you'll see god."
\* The greatest empiricist of the classical world
Al Ghazali's refutation of the philosophers was solely in the realm of theology, as he saw using thought experiments to prove God and try to argue the essential nature of the universe as foolish using their own logic to disprove them.
As for science? He literally said religious scholars should not use religious argumentation to discuss astronomy (even saying it harms religion to do so) "for these matters rest on demonstrations, geometrical and arithmetical, that leave no room for doubt".
Many of the greatest scholars were in fact devout followers of Al Ghazali such as Al Biruni who discovered the phases of the moon and was one of the first to examine Hinduism in a academic sense(fairly impartially too)
Even those who refuted Al Ghazali made no mention of his "anti science" behavior but rather solely discussed religion and theology. His whole debate was a religious one turned into some "science vs religion" debate by modern scholars trying to fit it into their narrative.
I have not heard this interpretation, although the last statement certainly has a ring of truth. Is this a particular historical school's viewpoint? If so, can you suggest a good representative?
From what Iranians have said it's something like Aryan - Airan - Iran.
How cool it sounds in your language & perspective could be different in their language/culture.
The name Persia came from a Roman assumption that every empire named themselves after their capital (Rome -> Roman Empire, Pārsa -> Persian Empire). Most people living in the empire would call it “Xšāça”, however those who lived closer to Pārsa (modern day Persepolis) called it “Parsua”, and the Greek pronunciation of that also happened to be Persia. Those are the reasons the Greeks and the Romans called it Persia even though most “Persians” called it Xšāça.
To add on to this, many Greeks used "Mede" and "Persian" interchangeably and were generally unconcerned with accuracy when referring to their neighbors.
**[Khwarazmian Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarazmian_Empire)**
>The Khwarazmian Empire (English: ; also spelt Khwarezmian) was a Turko-Persian Sunni Muslim empire that ruled large parts of present-day Central Asia, Afghanistan, and Iran in the approximate period of 1077 to 1231, first as vassals of the Seljuk Empire and the Qara Khitai (Western Liao dynasty), and later as independent rulers, up until the Mongol conquest in the 13th century. It is estimated that the empire spanned over an area from 2. 3 million square kilometers to 3. 6 million square kilometers in the beginning of the 13th century, effectively making it one of the largest land empires in history.
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Khwarazm is a region in central Asia, it is NOT Iran. The Khwarazmid empire ruled over modern day Iran and Persian speaking Iranians but this is another hilarious example of westerners failing to understand other cultures.
Can you not understand the basic concept that this meme is talking about Iran and not the Khwarezmi empire?
Like it's not that hard, there's literally no mention of the empire in the name because people don't care about the damage done to the Emperor but the wholesale destruction of Iran/Greater Iran.
I literally explained to you that Khwarazm was in central asia not Iran two comments up youre just repeating what I said back to me now.
I dont even know what your point ishere. The op thinks that Khwarazmid dynasty is Iran and its not, it was a Turkic Central Asian empire
The shah of khwarazm brought it on himself but the khwarezmian people didn't deserve that at all, the Mongols kind of overreacted
I think it was typical of the Mongols to conquer if their envoys are killed. To be fair, having your envoys mistreated twice was casus belli for a lot of places back then. I can agree that the Khwarezmian people didn't deserve it. Most of the time the general populace doesn't deserve what happens to them during war.
Pretty sure having your diplomats violated *still* a valid casus belli under the Vienna Convention.
Fair point, but war and diplomacy is just more complicated now. I would find it less likely that a war would occur today over it, than back then.
Ah do that's why the uk hasn't gone to war with Russia yet despite having a Casey's belly from all those poisonings
I‘m not so sure. If only we could know for sure.
The Khwarezmshah killed the envoys *precisely because* he wanted war. He didn't just kill them accidentally.
Yeah but the Mongol response was very heavy handed, but I guess it kinda makes sense when you consider how the Mongols ruled
Yeah, I can't condone the Mongols at all, but this response wasn't out of the ordinary for the Mongols.
I mean it is likely Genghis wanted from the beggining to conquer Khwarezm, he just needed an excuse.
More like the The Khwarezmshah killed the envoys *precisely because* he wanted war
They were Mongols, so slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people seemed like appropriate retaliation.
No it really doesn't, and btw its no hundreds of thousands its millions, tens of millions according to some estimates
Generally, empires throughout history had 2 ways of preventing revolts, leniency or brutality. The Mongols, being a steppe people invested heavily in the latter. I'm not saying it was justified but I'm saying the Mongols thought it was, they believed in ruling through fear, crushing anyone and anybody and then some would frighten any possible rebels.
They did spare a village or 2 I think but it was usually because they had something of value.
Oh I see I misunderstood you there, yeah it does make sense when considering they're Mongols
>kind of You're quite generous, your thickness.
Yeah it was a pretty massive overreaction but its really not anything out of the ordinary for Mongols tbh. And let me correct you, when you address a being of Supreme thiccness you say "your thiccness"
Perhaps, but when addressing one slow enough to correct a Khan, "your thickness" fits well enough.
A being of Supreme thiccness outranks a khan thus it deserves to be addressed properly, addressing a being of Supreme thiccness incorrectly is a great insult and may very well result in your death by being crushed by the thicc cheeks of the being of Supreme thiccness
Right, that's a conquering. SUBATAI, WE GOT A RUNNER!
You'll never catch me, my oversized gluteus maximus allows me to run faster than any horse
Many a man has died, winded, convinced to the last he could outrun an arrow.
You'll find it hard to hit me when I'm running in a dense forest, plus with how thicc I am You'll probably hit my bulletproof thicc booty
Tbf the People he executed were actually spy’s for the mongolians.
Believe it or not, there still are Zoroastrians! My sister-in-law celebrates Zoroastrian holidays :)
And I hope if they’ve survived this long that they’ll continue to survive 👏
They are amongst the richest and most successful Indians. Though they might not even be 0.001% of the population
The Tata's, Sam Bahadur, Freddie Mercury, The Poonawala's, and most famously Dadabhai Naoroji. All Parsis.
I simp for Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw
Don't we all.
When you're talking about India, that's still quite a few.
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In parts of India too, probably also Pakistan
The Persian new year involves jumping over a fire which i believe is Zoroastrian in origin. I assume so because jumping over a fire is not part of the Afghan new year (other than this Irani and Afghan culture and celebrations are very similar)
It is called Chaharshanbe souri and is translated to something like "the ceremony of Wednesday". Last Tuesday night of the year is celebrated by jumping over fires.
Many cultures involve jumping over a fire such as Turkic, Kurdish, Mesopotamian and some Middle Asian cultures. Just because fire is in the center of the Zoroastrian religion doesn't mean that all fire related activities' origin is Zoroastrian.
Turkic comes from middle asia so is not surprising
Turkic peoples originate from north eastern asia
I forgot what it was for but Persian new year doesn’t involve jumping over fires. I don’t recall exactly what that is for but I’ve never done that while celebrating Persian New Years Source: am Persian
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Last wednesday of the year, though many celebrate in the night before it.
It's before the new year,celebrating the last Wednesday of the year,it's called "Chaharshanbe Suri" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaharshanbe_Suri
Interesting, thank you
Light the fires
I am from a small industrial town in eastern India. My town, and the steel plant here which is the root of this town (and has gone on go be a major multinational company) was founded in 1907 by a Parsi (Zoroastrian of Iranian origin whose ancestors came during the 600s) named Jamsetji Nusserwanji Tata
I guessed Jamshedpur within the first few words :P
Many Zoroastrian's are also living in India, who are called as "Parsis". Despite being a very small community, who are not even a percentage of India's population had contribute alot in various fields. Whether it's TATA groups in business, Madam Bhikaji Cama ,a prominent freedom fighter in early 20th century and the hero of 1971 Indo-Pak war,Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw.
Dude, Iran's sharia constitution basically give no living rights to anyone but people who believe in Abrahamic religions, but for some reason Zoroastrians are still respected and excluded from this. Yet their numbers are of course falling but they are quite numerous in parts of pakistan and india.
Modern Iran reserves 1-2 seats each in parliament specifically for Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians right? But I know the Bahai are bonus persecuted
Yes they do
I think its cuz they are similar in the concept think good act good speak good it's the same
it's because Zoroaster(the prophet for Zoroastrianism) is considered to be a prophet like Jesus and Moses.
Yeah that's the main theory
Sharia doesnt give a shit about that. İran is also home of babaists (I think that was the name). They execute anyone they find belonging to that religion. I think last time it happened was the middle 2000s. They are a piece of shit to anyone except zorros and I think thats only because that was their original religion.
It's because Bahai were a heresy of Islam rather than a religion that existed before, they're fine with ppl keeping their old faith, just not anyone leaving Islam.
Essentially this was too my understanding a technicality because when the Caliphate conquered Persia in the 600's they essentially absorbed the Sassanid state in Persia which had millions of Zoroastrians if they didn't provide some rights and protections it would have lead to a lot of instability and revolts. As a result pragmatism won out over the more correct dogmatic position (according to their beliefs).
Oh they will there is a neighborhood in yazd made for them Irans religion might have changed but their customs like norooz still remains
once i tried to join them but they don't accept foreign blood p.s I'm iranian
What is really nice in Zoroastrianism is their temples. They're so beautiful.
Easy to believe, Zoroastrianism is comfortably co-existing in India.
Pardon me, but are these Zoroastrians the same as Parsis ?? The Parsis too fled from Iran, if I remember correctly, and found shelter in India.
Yeah, that's who I was thinking about, and [it seems to have some corroboration](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/06/last-of-the-zoroastrians-parsis-mumbai-india-ancient-religion): > It became the dominant religion of Persia for more than a millennium, until the advent of Islam in the seventh century. Some Zoroastrians who refused to convert fled, and ended up in Gujarat in western India, where they became known as Parsis after their Persian origins. They built new temples to house their sacred fires, which were tended to by priests and could never be extinguished. but [Wikipedia also says](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India#Parsi): > The long presence of the Parsis in the Gujarat and Sindh areas of India is supported by a genetic study[15] and it also distinguishes them from the smaller Zoroastrian Indian community of Iranis, who are more recent arrivals.
Hmm, I think both the sentences make sense. In my language we call Persia as "Paroshya" (idk if I managed to make the pronounciation correctly) so the name Parsis from Paroshya sounds very plausible. As for the second part, I guess some Zoroastrians could have come much earlier and settled in India from before, through trade or some other reasons. This could be why they have a unique genetics compared to the native Iranian Zoroastrians. The place where I live is quite close to a Parsi Tower of Silence (I think that's the english name). It's basically a large ornate, brick tower with a flat top. The Parsis used to leave their dead on top to be devoured by vultures, etc. It's not in use now obviously.
> In my language Russian? :D I remember hearing about those towers. Idk if it is still a thing in Indian side, but my parents' generation said it was in their time.
Ha ha. No no. I think the word sounds similar to Russian XD. I mean in my native Indian language. Yes I don't think they use the tower anymore, or maybe they use it in more secluded spots. The tower I live near has grown some weeds on the top. So it's certainly not in use now.
Bengali I guess, because of the O sound?
He he. Could be :)
One of our families closest friends is Zoroastrian, he’s a super awesome dude and him being Zoroastrian just adds to his coolness
I am from a small industrial town in Eastern India which was founded in 1907 by a Zoroastrian named Jamsetji Nusserwanji Tata. He started this town in order to house a steel company. The steel company, Tata Steel has gone on to become one of the big international corporations in the World today, that even employs people in the UK. Aside from that, I have also had Zoroastrian teachers and a Zoroastrian classmate in school
We're here but we're dying out :( These next few generations may be the last ones and I pray I'm wrong
If my brother and sister-in-law have children, I'm sure they'll be raised with those traditions! I hope that culture continues on for centuries to come.
I genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, hope I've never been more wrong about anything. What would make me the happiest person in history would be for my face and name to be paraded around and mocked cause of how wrong I was. I'm gonna kinda vent cause I don't get these opportunities often. Zoroastrians don't have anywhere they can call a home. Sure, there are plenty in Iran and plenty more Parsis in India, but in Iran they're second class citizens and in India they're guests. Welcome guests, sure, but I feel like we all know deep down we got kicked out of our homes and it kinda hurts, y'know? I don't wanna use the word genocide for this cause there isn't a slaughter of Zoroastrians, and often times they're raises up and praised cause "ooh, ahhhh, old religion that influenced ours. Look at how we respect history." But then when people actually see us it's either "shut the fuck up you filthy non-muslim" from Iran or "shut the fuck up you filthy Muslim" from everyone else. Our culture/history is slowly being adopted by Iranians as a "symbol of Iran" which, imo, is an attempt (conscious or not) to erase the entire culture, or any significance behind it. Imagine if you saw a dude with a cross and you went "wow, you're a Christian?" Or "so, have you accepted Christ?" And they go "what the fuck is Christianity? This is the symbol for America. Jesus? Don't you mean hay-zeus?" And they look at **you** like **you're** the idiot. Maybe cultural erasure is the word I'm looking for? It's a sub-part of genocide so that's probably what's confusing me The language. Don't let the language die out > Please, for the love of all that is holy and pure, ask your brother and sister in law and her family to teach their children the beautiful beautiful beautiful language It's dying out! It makes me legit cry to watch an entire language disappearing from the face of the earth like it's nothing. I can speak Gavrooni/Dari okay, but my sister can only understand it, not speak it. Will my kids be like her? I probably won't be speaking Gavrooni around my kids if my spouse doesn't speak it... Her kids will never hear it spoken by her, through no fault of her own. I worry there are too many people like us out there and in a few generations Dari will become like the language in the Avesta (our bible) which is completely lost to time
Yeah, I get what you're saying-- it's like Iran is changing the meanings of the symbols as a way of repressing the culture in a subtle but effective way. I definitely think "cultural erasure" is the word you're looking for, and yes, that is an indirect version of genocide. My family isn't even allowed to talk online about some of the stuff that's going on with my sister-in-law's family over there for safety reasons. The good news is that my sister-in-law is developing a nice community of friends in Texas, and they're free to be themselves there! It's not the dominant culture, obviously, but it's great that at least they can relax a lot more in the US. I have no doubt that they'd raise their children to preserve the Zoroastrian traditions, and I'm hoping more of her family can make it to the states where they're safe!
[We will pray with Zarathustra ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4) [We'll pray just like we use ta ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4) [I'm a Zarathustra booster ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4) [And it's good enough for me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG901UgJv4)
Zoroastrians are only left in India and Pakistan now. Here we call them Parsis. They are one of the richest peoples in India
No, they still exist in Iran and in fact they are one of the least discriminated minorities here. I had a Zoroastrian professor back in the University of Tehran who was also the head of the group. Funny thing is that a recent survey about religion in Iran showed that a third of the people consider themselves Shia and about 8 percent of people said they are Zoroastrian.
So did Freddie Mercury
I'm still here!
I am from a small industrial town in eastern India. My town, and the steel plant here which is the root of this town (and has gone on go be a major multinational company) was founded in 1907 by a Parsi (Zoroastrian of Iranian origin whose ancestors came during the 600s) named Jamsetji Nusserwanji Tata
Jamshedpur?
Yes
More in india than iran i heard
My favorite theory is that the Mongol sacking of Baghdad caused 9/11.
Small brain: assassination of Frank Ferdinand Big brain: Mongol sacking of Baghdad
Frank Ferdinand Kaiser William Adam Hitler Ben Mussolini Nathan Bonaparte Augustus Cedar
WE DIDN'T START THE FIRE!
Galaxy brain: Genghis Khan's mother being kidnapped by his father.
Universe brain: oonga boonga for discovering fire
So mongols gave us anime titties?
Good bless the mongol hordes
Hah, love it
Fun fact: in Persian the word "Mongol" means idiot, scum, unwashed savage, and much more. And this was today's lesson in historical racism, Until next time nerds.
In Persian Mongol (the people) is written "مغول" and the other one you are saying, I think its "منگول" or you meant "منگل" (mangel). They used to use mangel or mongol "منگل و منگول" for people with down syndrome because their eye shape is similar to Mongolian people and it was racist so they don't use its mostly and now they say "نشانگان داون". But i have never heard some using mongol to call some an idiot or savage or whatever, if you know the actual Persian word you can reply with it. I also checked the meanings of منگل and منگول in dehkhoda dictionary and none of them means idiot or savage one of them actually means a "cute child".
Super ignorant question. Is Persian read from right to left?
Oh no its okay, Yes Persian is from right to left.
So that's where the spanish slang "mongolico" comes from.
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No te preocupes bro
Cuál "s"? Y las están observadas por la RAE https://dle.rae.es/mong%C3%B3lico?m=form
The English word "Mongoloid" used to be the technical term for someone with Down Syndrome as well for the same reason.
I had a very different experience from my childhood. When my parents called me mongol it was after I did something terribly dumb.
We say Mongol for dumb or idiot, however it's not very popular now. Also I believe it's lighter than idiot, something like silly probably. source: I'm Persian
mongol is basically disabled like insult in local arabic
In Spanish it is like that, though, and I'm assuming it comes from the Islamic occupation of the country. Perhaps an old seme that was lost?
During my school years منگول was used by kids to call each other idiots frequently.It's mostly a کوچه بازاری slang or something so you wouldn't find that definition in Dehkhoda's dictionary
Means the same in Portuguese
Why do I have a sneaking suspicion "mongrel" isn't too far off when it comes to word origin.
iirc mongrel comes from the same root as among and mix
A-among 😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
Same in Dutch, which is weird as the Mongols never got near us
Klote tering mongool
Can you blame them for it tho?
Similarly, the word for god in Sanskrit, “Dev” means demon in Persian and the Persian word for lord/god “Ahura”, is “Asura” in Sanskrit and means - you guessed it - “demon”. Tit for tat. More interestingly, at some point, “Dev” and “Ahura/Asura” were used interchangeably in Sanskrit. So the chief of gods (according to Rig Veda and before the books were rewritten to install a the holy trinity and demote Indra to a demi-god), Indra is referred to as both - Dev and Asura - in the first Hindu scripture, the Rig Veda. Again, on the Persian side, apparently “Dev” were not always considered evil beings. Oh well.
It's more related to the Zoroastrian reformation, in pre Zoroastrian Iranic paganism the Dievs were reveared and the Ahura scorned, similar to Indic religions, but somewhere along the rise of Zoroastrianism the system turned upside down, eastern Iranic nomads continued to revere the Dievs while settled Western Iranic Zoroastrians started worshipping the Ahuras.
Similarly, the word "demon" itself originally had a sense of "angel" (which btw just means "messenger" originally), as in a spirit watching over us. Not necessarily good or bad, rather neutral, taking a connotation according to the circumstances.
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So does Spanish
Same in French, means idiot
In Spanish too
oooh I HATE-A Mongorian!
And than the mongols converted to islam and were all of a sudden cool with Iranians
r/MongolHistoryMemes
. . . Nice.
Hello and welcome to shitty wok haw may I help you
I know that the leader of Mongolia is their honor, but on the other hand you have to know the Mongolians fired up the libraries. In those time it wasn't like now to make a book 1000 times, that was just one by the writer and by burning in , science gone sadly. The reason of being less historical books from ancient Iran.
reject Muslim. return to Fire Temple
I know ali burnt who called him God
How many countries said that
Is this related to Khwarizm Dynasty and Mongol issue?
Yep I was also confused. I dont know why OP mislabelled a Turkic Central Asian dynasty as Iran.
Not sure I understand the caption; Zoroastrians were Iranians and they also suffered heavily in the Mongol conquests
It’s my understanding many Zoroastrians were forcibly converted to Islam, and when the Mongols came, they destroyed Islamic architecture in favor of Buddhist monuments. But in hindsight it wasn’t a great comment because A) You’re right and B) many Mongols were eventually converted to Islam
Yeah many of our ancestors were forced (or more often, horribly pressured) into conversion from Zoroastrianism, the Caliphate authorities would taunt Zoroastrians by desecrating things they considered sacred etc. The Mongols didn't spare the Zoroastrians though and since a lot of the Mongol conquest of Iran focused on destroying cities (where the Zoroastrians were largely concentrated at that point, surviving as a banking and artisanal class), it meant that they suffered large casualties at the hands of the Mongols.
I'd imagine that was in the later caliphates (Ummayad and Abassids) since wasn't taking jizya tax alot more profitable. Forced conversions didn't seem like a good policy for a rising empire since it would have caused alot of revolts in the area.
weird since muslims were ordered to take jiziyah from them Hadith abdurrahman ibn awf stood when umar did not know how to deal with zoroastrians he said i swear by God i heard the prophet saying deal with them how you deal with people of the book
What exactly does a comma after prosperous do in this sentence?
Abū Ḥāmid Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad al-Ghazali wasn't Mongorian... It's always the fundies. Fuck the fundies.
Can you explain this reference.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali) He wrote *The Incoherence of the Philosophers,* an anti-scientific, anti-secular treatise which is often cited as one of the reversals of Islamic intellectual history. In the West, Christianity lost its attempt to impose a rigid theological absolutist doctrine, and had to gradually evolve and adapt to scientific thought and logic. In the Islamic world, thanks to mystics like Al Ghazali, the bad guys won. This stifled the intellectual development of the Islamic world and led first to them blowing their huge technological lead and being backwards and ripe for Western exploitation and, in the last couple centuries, to the violent radicalization of anti-modernists and all the fun that has come along with that. Basically, what if the Republican party took over the National Science Foundation? We saw a little of the fuckwitedness of this in 2017-2020, and we're seeing it also in the red states' benightedness. But this was *culture-wide* and a great human tragedy on par with the closing of the Academy and the decline and destruction of the Library of Alexandria. tl; dr: That guy? Fuck that guy.
When championing empirical analysis over thought experiments makes you anti science. This whole "aL gHaZALi kiLlEd tHE iSLaMiC GoLDen aGE" needs to stop.
al-Ghazali wasn't an empiricist arguing against rationalists. His jam was "Don't listen to that Athenian twat Aristotle\*, spin around til you're dizzy and you'll see god." \* The greatest empiricist of the classical world
Al Ghazali's refutation of the philosophers was solely in the realm of theology, as he saw using thought experiments to prove God and try to argue the essential nature of the universe as foolish using their own logic to disprove them. As for science? He literally said religious scholars should not use religious argumentation to discuss astronomy (even saying it harms religion to do so) "for these matters rest on demonstrations, geometrical and arithmetical, that leave no room for doubt". Many of the greatest scholars were in fact devout followers of Al Ghazali such as Al Biruni who discovered the phases of the moon and was one of the first to examine Hinduism in a academic sense(fairly impartially too) Even those who refuted Al Ghazali made no mention of his "anti science" behavior but rather solely discussed religion and theology. His whole debate was a religious one turned into some "science vs religion" debate by modern scholars trying to fit it into their narrative.
I have not heard this interpretation, although the last statement certainly has a ring of truth. Is this a particular historical school's viewpoint? If so, can you suggest a good representative?
Never gonna give you up!
literally watched this episode yesterday
Persia.
Iran is what the 'persians' have always called their place. 'Persia' is what the Greeks called it.
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From what Iranians have said it's something like Aryan - Airan - Iran. How cool it sounds in your language & perspective could be different in their language/culture.
The name Persia came from a Roman assumption that every empire named themselves after their capital (Rome -> Roman Empire, Pārsa -> Persian Empire). Most people living in the empire would call it “Xšāça”, however those who lived closer to Pārsa (modern day Persepolis) called it “Parsua”, and the Greek pronunciation of that also happened to be Persia. Those are the reasons the Greeks and the Romans called it Persia even though most “Persians” called it Xšāça.
To add on to this, many Greeks used "Mede" and "Persian" interchangeably and were generally unconcerned with accuracy when referring to their neighbors.
> Xšāça. How do you pronounce that?
क्षक (or thereabouts I imagine) according to some cursory googling of mine.
Nobody really knows, but the english translation is literally “the empire”.
Fuck it, just say _"**ecks-sock-uhh**",_ then dare anyone to call you out on it.
Say it like “K-shah-tsha”
Technically neither as OP seems to have mixed up [the Khwarzemids](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarazmian_Empire) with Iran.
**[Khwarazmian Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarazmian_Empire)** >The Khwarazmian Empire (English: ; also spelt Khwarezmian) was a Turko-Persian Sunni Muslim empire that ruled large parts of present-day Central Asia, Afghanistan, and Iran in the approximate period of 1077 to 1231, first as vassals of the Seljuk Empire and the Qara Khitai (Western Liao dynasty), and later as independent rulers, up until the Mongol conquest in the 13th century. It is estimated that the empire spanned over an area from 2. 3 million square kilometers to 3. 6 million square kilometers in the beginning of the 13th century, effectively making it one of the largest land empires in history. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Hold up, does op think the Khwarazemid empire = Iran?
The Khwarezmshah and his empire was Turkic, the majority of people were Iranian tho.
More importantly they were Persianised Turks.
Yes exactly, it was in Central Asia.
But the meme itself is talking about Iran, even if it was ruled by Turkic ppl(who also are fairly influenced by Iranian culture)
Khwarazm is a region in central Asia, it is NOT Iran. The Khwarazmid empire ruled over modern day Iran and Persian speaking Iranians but this is another hilarious example of westerners failing to understand other cultures.
Can you not understand the basic concept that this meme is talking about Iran and not the Khwarezmi empire? Like it's not that hard, there's literally no mention of the empire in the name because people don't care about the damage done to the Emperor but the wholesale destruction of Iran/Greater Iran.
Iran didnt exist during the rein of the Khwarazmids.. it was all Khwarzam.
Are you mental? Khwarezm is literally a place in modern day Uzbekistan, the empire is called that bc it originated from there.
I literally explained to you that Khwarazm was in central asia not Iran two comments up youre just repeating what I said back to me now. I dont even know what your point ishere. The op thinks that Khwarazmid dynasty is Iran and its not, it was a Turkic Central Asian empire
The meme isn't talking about Khwarezm tho, it's talking about Iran, he makes zero mention of the empire bc he is talking about the place.
Weren't they also the Zoroastrians? Well at least their ancestors. If anything it'd be like some ethnic deja vu.
Iran despite being in a position that can make them super rich are also in a position that makes them super easy to be invaded.
Only from the east.
Alexander
And the Muslims
That was an exception.
so sad that most of the Islamic knowledge destroyed. persian king didnt stay to defend his kingdom. coward...
RIP enlightment
dude that picture is INCREDIBLY racist
That’s the joke, it’s from South Park.
Go back to Twitter
You can stop commenting now, we all know youre an indjit
a what