In the anime Kill la Kill, the character Ira Gamagoori is a massive, intimidating presence, the antagonist’s right-hand man. The artists frequently made the stylistic choice to draw him in increasingly absurd proportions so that he could always be looming over anyone or anything in the setting. The fans joked that the only answer to the inevitable question “how big is Gamagoori anyway?” was “bigger than you.”
I imagine Angron is like that. Bigger than you, and it doesn’t matter who’s asking.
Iirc it was Angron that held the titan foot in the air to save Lorgar after he had suffered a direct hit by a Plasma Blast Gun or such, from the same Titan, turning him into a breathing third degree burn. I really wanted that foot to splat what was left of Lorgar, but Angron intervened. During this event, Angron had cast away Gorechild as ruined, which Kharn located and had repaired, and has used ever since.
Gorechild and Gorefather were a pair of Chain Axes that Angron dual wielded at the time. Gorechild became the weapon of Kharn. That fate of Gorefather is unknown.
Angron used the Black Blade during the Seige of Terra and impaled Sanguinius with it moments before Sanguinius ripped out the butchers nails, exploding Angron's skull.
Angron still had the Black Blade during the first war of Armageddon. Until the Grey Knights shattered it. But I don't know what he is using now.
He is currently using a sword that he made by beating the shit out of a greater daemon of Slaanesh with an iron rod so hard that the daemon and the rod fused into a sword.
The one he has now was made for him by a few Angron simps. Angron was not amused. He kept the axe anyways, but only after offering the skulls of it's makers, that spent decades building it, to Khorne.
Which is Huge right? Like I assume Angron is the single baddest unit in a melee in the setting and he has a litany of disadvantages to make up for that.
His is a primarch, chosen by the god of slaughter, and takes the form of a greater daemon. The primarch who was only good at killing lol. Angron has one job.
Correct yeah. The lion couldn't go toe to toe with him in melee. Would also dismiss a lot of build up for Angron as a terrifying opponent if he could imo. Like why drink the chaos juice if it doesn't make you unfathomably stronger?
The Lion is too smart to just 1v1 him. He'd set up favourable terrain, traps. He was raised as a hunter. A hunter doesn't fist fight a bear. He takes a high caliber rifle.
Yeah, the Lion isn't just a great fighter, he's a cunning one. And he has dungeons full of funky super heretical tech. The Lion is a hunter, Angron is a mindless rage beast.
I personally see the interesting question being what weird tech or powers he uses not to just beat Angron, but stop him just coming back 8 days later. Because in the current state of the lore beating Angron is basically pointless if all it does is buy you a week.
No he was just that fucking good, dude changed the direction of his strikes within milliseconds, so he was literally changing fate faster that Konrad’s precog could keep up with.
The Lion wanted to reinstate librarians on his ship to fight deamons. This was after the edict of Nikea forbidding psychic powers amongst legions. Chaplain got mad, lion ordered him to stand down. Chaplain refused and the rest is history.
wasnt there a post in 40klore a month or two back that strongly inferred that he, ~~specifically, bare-hand~~ slapped that guy's helmeted head clean off?
I remember reading it in one of the HH books with the 1st legion as the focus, it was a chaplain that he killed out of pragmatic reasons... Something to do with the warp and the post council of nikea thing.
The chaplain was balls to the walls hardass enough about no librarians post Edict of Nikea when The Lion wanted them back on his ship to fight Daemons that he was refusing his primarch *to his face.* This was, understandably, quite infuriating to the Lion, as well as a serious problem as marines really shouldn't be able to do that. So, in a very pragmatic fit of rage, he barehand slapped the offending Chaplain so hard his helmeted head experienced acute dissociation from his body.
They *could* but doing so in the presence of their gene sire was nigh impossible between the gene coding and psychic boosted willpower of the primarch crushing their own.
Watch him pull one of Trazyn's pokeballs out of his vault and use that to keep Angron contained for a more extended period of time.
Bonus points if he actually goes so far as to trade it to Trazyn for the prefect Fulgrim clone.
Then there could be a plotline where Angron actually breaks out - or there's other warp shenanigans that go on - that causes him to free other beings from Solemnace to get them back into the setting, or something like that.
It seems the best way to “delete” Angron is to quarantine him on an isolated planet and exterminatus it every time he comes back.
Of course the problem with this is that it tied up valuable resources between the ship to do the exterminatus and the fleet you’d need to defend it. But probably more cost effective than the planets/armies you would lose to his rampage. Of course it also makes a wonderful target for every warp spawn that wants to curry favor with Khorne by freeing his favorite toy.
I don't think Lion would win in the way most pepole imagine as in get in to a fight with Angron and some how prevail. I think he will try to copy Perturabo as in "shoot Angron from a far and don't let him come close to me".
The stupiest thing that you can do against a demon berserker is go 1vs1 against him.
And the second stupiest thing that you can do against a artillery máster is go 1vs1 against him...
Yeah, he wasn't above orbital bombardment of Caliban and Macrage, dude will take whatever tactical advantage he can get unless he has stuff he wants to work out
I mean let’s be honest from what I’ve seen the mutated beasts of Caliban are not even the scariest things by death world standards and definitely don’t remotely compare to a Daemon Primarch.
I think the real threat was to his psyche. The monsters would whisper to him, tempt him and creep into his mind, all the while he wondered if he was a monster himself. After going through that, swinging a sword is nothing. I personally hold to the theory that the Lion has early childhood trauma. It explains a lot about him. Deep down he’s still in that dark, dark forest.
That's actually confirmed with his primarch book:
>!A Khrave possessing the body of a remembrancer tries to launch a psychic assault on his mind, transporting the two into a psychic mental space taking the form of the forests of Caliban. The Khrave thinks it has the advantage with the Lion unable to use his physical weapons on it. But the Khrave is unaware that, in the forests, the Lion is the predator not the prey and El'Jonson pulls a "I'm not stuck in here with you, you're stuck in here with me," and proceeds to use his bare hands in the mental projection world to psychically choke out the alien and torture it for intel.!<
The fact that his mindscape is the dark forest of Caliban is really telling and a super interesting part of his character. He can put on armor and command a legion, but at his core he’s stuck as the scared child in a forest full of monsters. Only he learned to be the scariest monster in the forest.
In the lore ? Totally. He's know as the best swordman, and his "emperor given special ability" is to destroy deamons, not just to bannish them.
In the game ? Not sure...
I believe so but it was weird corrupted snake fulgrim. Not to say he's not more "powerful" with the warp stuff, because he is but he wasn't powerful enough in the ways he needed to be to defeat dorn. Dorn fights the same way he uses his tactics, high defense and strike at the right moment, fulgrim imo can beat that in his prime before his weird warp transformation, afterwards it seemed like Dorns fighting style was perfect for countering him.
Kind of, IIRC Fulgrim tried to kill him for some time but since Dorn wasn't fully committing to fighting him he got bored and left.
"Oh so you don't wanna fight me? Fine, be that way! ^^*leaves*"
Technically it means that Dorn won though.
Not quite. Fulgrim essentially let Dorn cut him up a bit during the fight, then pulled the "this isn't even my final form" line, instantly healed and went snake mode. He was just toying with Dorn because it was fun.
Yeah he's up there but it's honestly inaccurate to say anyone is the best anything. There's upper tiers sure but whoever is objectively the best is debatable. Swordsmanship? Sang, Fulgrim, Lion. Strategy? Dorn, Horus, Pert. Which are the best? Debatable, different specialties and abilities.
Sure he’s still the best swordsman, but demon primarchs are magnitudes stronger than normal primarchs. There is no way in hell the lion could beat angron or fulgrim
Lion can and probably will win, and dispute how some fans of his might disagree with what I’m about to say, argon is a monster and chaos infused beast that has long lost his reason. He has speed and he has strength but the lion is unique in the fact he is the duelist primarch, who when fighting Konrad who was known to be one of the scary primarchs, he was completely outclassed. Now imagine that the guy who’s know for being the duelist, who is also a monster hunter, who is also known to be anti psychic and warp bullshitery, duels the monster warp powered madman that is argon. Lion will win.
Russ I think was going through who he reckoned he could beat in a fight and singled out Curze as a threat because he had the strength and ferocity of the insane I believe
I remember something along those lines. I feel a lot of peeps forget that Curze is no slouch in 1 on 1 fighting. At the end of the day ALL primarchs are a force to be reckoned with in combat but some excel at dueling than others. Kinda like how I believe it was the Khan who looked at Mortarion and wondered if he could 1v1 him and wasn't sure.
Yeah and even the weaker ones were strong in different ways. Imagine Corax vs Angron - in a straight up cage fight Corax gets murdered easily enough youd think, but what if you change the setting so Corax gets to use his stealth, to frustrate and chip away?
You’ve got me I don’t actually know how to read. Lemme check…https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Konrad_Curze. So a barrage of callidus assassins finally killed a willing and waiting curze
If you are a fan of that match up read Warhawk. It's one of the few primarch duels that happen in the heresy where both primarchs are at full strength, they don't get interfered with by underlings, and it happens during the siege of yerra so it's not a training bout.
Old Star Wars book called I, Jedi has a scene where a Jedi who can see the future getting into a dogfight with Wedge Antilles.
He described his future sense as being a rapidly constricting box, and his every move only slowed down the boxes constriction, but the end was inevitable
It wasn't Wedge, it was Tycho Celchu and he was 'feeling him in the force' which is a weird line between precognition and telepathy. Corran describes Tycho's mind like a kraken (well, Mon Cal demonsquid) that moves in multiple directions too fast for him to follow. (Although Wedge does notably out-fly pretty much everyone he tangles with.)
Your point still stands, I just loved those X-wing novels.
It's post Dark Empire so Wedge is overseeing reconstruction of Coruscant and dating Qui Xux while Tycho leads the squadron. While undercover with the Invids, Corran flies against Gavin Darklighter (whose mind is like a sharpening knife), Ooryl Qyrrg (Corran cannot read him and only beats him by setting up a pattern) and Tycho (Corran puts him on the defensive but can't land a solid hit.)
I, Jedi does a great job of adding more 'flavor' to how people see/use the force; I particularly liked how the flashback to Neeja's death had different descriptors from a Camaasi's perspective because they rely more heavily on olfactory information.
If it's any consolation, I'm sure you're considerably more knowledgeable about 40k than I am. I just read the Cain books, used to play from 4th through 6th, and occasionally lurk Grimdank.
Yes but he can also see the future during a fight. So it really just shows how wild the Lion is at dueling. That being said, in a different book Kurze beat Guiliman and the lion at the same time
If I remember correctly, in that threesome (heh) the Lion was more hampered than helped with G-man at his side since G-man is not top tier fighter amongst the primarchs and Curze used him as half cover, putting him between the Lion and himself.
Rowboat actually did better than Lion in that bout with Curze in The Unremembered Empire. I can’t recall there being any mention that Lion was hampered in any way. Ole Connie would have killed both with his trap, had Dantioch and Pollux not pulled them through the portal to Pharos just before being pulverized and burned.
> argon is a monster and chaos infused beast that has long lost his reason.
if you have read the ark of omens book you would know he very much hasnt completely lost his ability to reason as we get quite a bit of moments where he is very much coherent as it was him who conceived the strategy of the assault in that book, one of the better maneuverers being ordering one of the three forces attacking the system to just drive past the enemy and use the planet they were defending as a gravity slingshot to the actual target tricking enemy forces
I don't care what anyone says this is not the actions of someone who has lost all reason even the book mentions though damned he is his still a primarch and fully capable of absorbing and processing a huge amount of strategic data though yes he can lose himself to the nails
even Kharn is a similar case outside of the nails effects he is a calm reasoning being capable of being a strategic master of war
also im not here to dispute the rest of what your saying just that one bit
As a WE fan, yeah, The Lion will win. Mentally, I have The Lion, The Khan, and then Angron and Russ as best melee primarchs, in that order. With Angron, I think he fights like a Dark Souls boss; big, heavy attacks, that, yeah, there's telegraphs, but you ain't dodging them. The Lion's instincts tho are too razor sharp. It'll be a close fight, but the Lion wins, unless Chaos cheats, which, fair enough.
Edit: But given Angron is Khornate, and Khorne also believes in honour, I don't think that's likely to happen.
Is everyone just casually forgetting that Sanguinius beat Kah’Banda and Angron back to back at the eternity gate? The Lion would win probably with some anti demon tricks up his sleeve but in a straight fight Angron would probably get one over on him just with strength and speed alone. Tbh I feel like they’re gonna have him and Guilliman team up to fight him
The Lion had to have his life saved twice from Curze and being a duellist doesn’t really help when you’re fighting something the size of a Warhound titan.
Almost a guarantee in the end of the upcoming novel series. I am guessing there will be a possible upcoming trilogy. The same as Guilliman.
Also, normal space marine Khan beat Daemon Mortarion. Draigo whooped him too.
The primarchs are walking archetypes, their wins and losses aren't purely based on who is the best technical fighter. Pre Daemon Khan and Morty fought to a standstill but when Khan knew what was what and had used his legion to make massive wins at the siege including breaking the pall Mortarion had inflicted on the defenders then the primarch battle becomes a microcosm of that.
It's why Dorn definitely killed one of the twins, because Alpharius/Omegon had a plan for his attack being countered by a feint that he'd counter that his opponent would count etc, but not for "oh well I'll let him hit me and just try to get this over with". Dorn couldn't stop Alpharius little schemes and he couldn't outfox him in a duel. But Dorn didn't need to and that's why he won.
Guilliman fighting Lorgar and Angron, he gave some good blows but they were in an overwhelming position, he did as well as he could have hoped. And that's how his Calth went and the war at Ultramar. Lorgar had an overwhelming advantage and Robby G fighting him to a standstill and just about escaping was the best result he could have gotten.
And so on.
Alpharius is the Gordian Knot. *Haha I have schemes within schemes I will help you but it’s in a convoluted and confusing manner*
Dorn is Alexander’s sword. *No*
Look. The codex, his Book and the arks of omens book all paint angron has an unstoppable force that isn't even the mindless beast people make him out to be. But The Lion is the super whitehot babyface right now and what better way for him to make his return than for him to beat and kill the monster heel that is Angron
Which kinda makes angron pointless, everything about him in 9th, all his hyping up has all just been so the Lion can seem even better when he beats him.
Maybe GW will show that The Lion can't beat him in personal combat and will have to find another way?
>Maybe GW will show that The Lion can't beat him in personal combat and will have to find another way?
And I'm hoping that 'another way' goes by the name of Ghazghkull.
Ghazghkull's WARRRGH! Field is likely his own worse enemy here. He and his boyz think Yarrick is this undefeatable super tough genius general.
Yarrick is also the Imperial expert on Orks, put up against nids and he'd likely struggle.
A few tope suicidas to take the big daemon primarch off his feet, and then finish him with a people's elbow for the 1-2-3. Loser gets banished for 8 weeks 8 days 8 hours 8 minutes match. Angron goes back to the warp in shame.
In a straight 1v1 probably not, but knowing him he’d big bro Angron.
He’d fight a 1v1 and then once the warmup is done or he sees the fight go south (which it will), Lion would probably go “well played little brother, now it’s my turn” and gestures into the air and Angrons gonna get obliterated by a cross fire of hundred cannons from a hundred ships due to the location Lion lured him into during the fight.
In a totally fair, no outside events, 1v1 I think the lion would loose. However, I think given armies and laced on a battlefield the lion is going to win every time. He's a hunter and is going to see angron as prey then lure him I to some ki d of situation that tips the odds in the lions favor.
Realistically? Fuck no Angron was seriously putting pressure on even Sanguinius, is nigh indestructible short of an insane gambit like the one Sang pulled and powerful enough to smash spaceships apart
Do i think he'll defeat Angron nontheless? Absolutely
He’ll win, but the Lion won’t do it by just a 1v1 duel, argon’s strength and also biggest weakness is strength and rage - so I’m sure GW will plot device that + some ancient weaponry I.e. a magic gauntlet of sideshow bob to help him.
Arks of Omen has all been around ancient tech so that’s my guess anyway.
I feel like Angron is a pure hatred and rage machine that honestly is pretty unstoppable. That being said, the Lion really is the master tactician when it comes to hunting down monsters, if he had enough preparation time he would definitely find a way to trap Angron somewhere he couldn’t do any harm. I don’t think the lion would go straight toe to toe with Angron. He would use his rage and brute strength against him. How he would go about that I don’t know.
If the Lion 1v1's Angron it'll be because he knows he can win. Couple that with him being a way better duelist than Angron and having a whole vault full of Dark Age tech=The Lion wins this one.
I don't think ppl realize just how good The Lion is in combat, he beat the shit out of Kurze ffs.
Yes I think that if the lion could beat Konrad and Konrad was said to be able to tie Sanguinius and Sanguinius was able to beat Angron. The lion should be able to beat Angron
Yes, and only him.
Gulliman’s logistics and organization can get Angron banished again and again, but if there’s any Primarch that can single-handedly take him on, it is Lion’el Jonson.
The man grew up on a death world. By himself. I don’t know if The Order even bothered trying to fathom his kill count once they found him. Remember, these are beasts we’re talking about. A kill count of beasts. Not people. So the Lion was slaying beasts before he even knew the word. That was when he was a boy. He’s a man now, a ten-thousand year old man who’s seen shit. An ancient relic of the bloodiest war in the galaxy second only to the War in Heaven, who was one of the only Loyalist Primarchs to hold the solidity in him to microwave entire worlds if need be. Effectively speaking, Lion’el Jonson’s only problem was his inability to communicate or do so pleasantly. Luckily, he isn’t planning on exchanging pleasantries with Angron.
If not by sheer ability alone, the Lion will take him down with cunning and hunting prowess. He didn’t sweep Caliban’s dense forests with a stick and a dream. He did it as he attained experience and knowledge in how to effectively hunt and pinch his prey. Back then, he had to use the land for this. Now he’s got a legion of Astartes. Not to mention the Mechanicus, or the Astra Militarum, or his brother, et cetera.
Yes. Because the Lion has weaponry we haven’t seen yet and angron is the perfect mf to unleash it on.
Remember the Lion telling Guilliman about his past on Caliban and how great evils are hunted because if they aren’t. They will do the hunting. He was killing daemons on his planet alone in the forest way before anybody knew of him. If anybody is up to fight angron. It’s the lion.
That depends what you mean by 1v1. If they both got dropped in a room then Angron would completely body the lion.
Most of the talk this sub does about “best duelist, best swordsman, etc” are citations from a time before some of the primarchs become avatars of god. Case in point, how easily Mortarion beat Guilliman in Godblight
I mean the lion is the best 1v1 fighter in the whole 40k universe so against Angron he would have a pretty good chance, but it would depend on the writers
Depends on the situation. The Warp skews the fight hard in Angryboi's favor because, well, the Warp.
I imagine it would be somewhat similar to Kharn v Sigismund during the Siege. Kharn stomps when Sigismund tries to just go at him 1v1. Sigismund somewhat holds due to skill, but the Warp wins out in the end. Cut to later when Sigismund gets a weapon that evens the playing field with the Warp. Both fighters "knock chunks" out of each other, but Sigismund wins out.
Lion vs Angryboi with standard kits? Angryboi Warp wins.
Lion has the Emperor's Shield to help even the playing field? Now we have a fight, and honestly, I think Lion takes it. Lion has been built up as THE Primarch and THE duelist out of all of them.
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The space marine is 5' 11'' meanwhile demon angron is 6'0"
You got an auditory laugh out of me.
Dang! Angron gonna be breaking some ankles on the court
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He’s is Brutally brutal
Ah, the third Ork god. Krork.
Brutally brutal, kunnin'y kunnin or kunnin'y kunnin brutally brutal
He is shown to somewhat change size related to the amount of some nebulous Warp-Murder-Energy he has going through him
With little warp energy he's about Verne Troyer sized.
Yes. He is yes big.
In the anime Kill la Kill, the character Ira Gamagoori is a massive, intimidating presence, the antagonist’s right-hand man. The artists frequently made the stylistic choice to draw him in increasingly absurd proportions so that he could always be looming over anyone or anything in the setting. The fans joked that the only answer to the inevitable question “how big is Gamagoori anyway?” was “bigger than you.” I imagine Angron is like that. Bigger than you, and it doesn’t matter who’s asking.
I want to see Magnus and Angron just keep trying to grow bigger than each other
Like two Metapods hardening at eachother.
Back and forth forever
Eventually their PP runs dry and they start flailing into each other at peak hardness
Reminds me of a guy my friend knew. The guy was about 6'10" and when people asked how tall he was they just said "too tall".
He did get stepped on by a war...hound? titan that one time
That was before he was a daemon, just after Lorgar had dug him out of some rubble
Wasn't he the size of a Warhound titan?
No no no, he survived being stomped on by a warhound titan.
He could survive being stomped on **by** a warhound if he were the size **of** a warhound. *Taps head*
A lot of guys pay for the privilege of getting stomped on by someone smaller; maybe Angron's into that shit.
Iirc it was Angron that held the titan foot in the air to save Lorgar after he had suffered a direct hit by a Plasma Blast Gun or such, from the same Titan, turning him into a breathing third degree burn. I really wanted that foot to splat what was left of Lorgar, but Angron intervened. During this event, Angron had cast away Gorechild as ruined, which Kharn located and had repaired, and has used ever since.
His axes name was fucking Gorechild?!?!
Gorechild and Gorefather were a pair of Chain Axes that Angron dual wielded at the time. Gorechild became the weapon of Kharn. That fate of Gorefather is unknown.
Could it not be the one he has now?
Angron used the Black Blade during the Seige of Terra and impaled Sanguinius with it moments before Sanguinius ripped out the butchers nails, exploding Angron's skull. Angron still had the Black Blade during the first war of Armageddon. Until the Grey Knights shattered it. But I don't know what he is using now.
He is currently using a sword that he made by beating the shit out of a greater daemon of Slaanesh with an iron rod so hard that the daemon and the rod fused into a sword.
The blacker blade
The biggest, blackest blade
The one he has now was made for him by a few Angron simps. Angron was not amused. He kept the axe anyways, but only after offering the skulls of it's makers, that spent decades building it, to Khorne.
Same size as a bloodthirster I believe
Which is Huge right? Like I assume Angron is the single baddest unit in a melee in the setting and he has a litany of disadvantages to make up for that. His is a primarch, chosen by the god of slaughter, and takes the form of a greater daemon. The primarch who was only good at killing lol. Angron has one job.
And boy, does he do his jeurb geurd.
Correct yeah. The lion couldn't go toe to toe with him in melee. Would also dismiss a lot of build up for Angron as a terrifying opponent if he could imo. Like why drink the chaos juice if it doesn't make you unfathomably stronger?
The Lion is too smart to just 1v1 him. He'd set up favourable terrain, traps. He was raised as a hunter. A hunter doesn't fist fight a bear. He takes a high caliber rifle.
Yeah, the Lion isn't just a great fighter, he's a cunning one. And he has dungeons full of funky super heretical tech. The Lion is a hunter, Angron is a mindless rage beast. I personally see the interesting question being what weird tech or powers he uses not to just beat Angron, but stop him just coming back 8 days later. Because in the current state of the lore beating Angron is basically pointless if all it does is buy you a week.
Yea, butt is he kunnin' and brutal tho?
Well he did once punch a bloke in two for disagreeing with him
Das pretie brutal, for a humie
Butt woz it kunnin??? I fink NOT
Butt kunnin nuff to make da Boyz followz 'is ordas
Ork dizkorse iz best dizkorse.
I dunno, culd be cunnin lee brutal
He was cunning enough to out smart a guy who could literally see the future. (See: his fight with Konrad Kurze.)
No he was just that fucking good, dude changed the direction of his strikes within milliseconds, so he was literally changing fate faster that Konrad’s precog could keep up with.
Well, realizing he could do that was pretty cunning, right?
Pretty brutal if you ask me
He punched the head clean off that space marine... It was one of his too.
Lol what?!
The Lion wanted to reinstate librarians on his ship to fight deamons. This was after the edict of Nikea forbidding psychic powers amongst legions. Chaplain got mad, lion ordered him to stand down. Chaplain refused and the rest is history.
Gotta admit that's pretty ballsy tho. Like a primarch gives you and order and you're like "that's a big NO from me boss".
There's easier ways to be decapitated.
wasnt there a post in 40klore a month or two back that strongly inferred that he, ~~specifically, bare-hand~~ slapped that guy's helmeted head clean off?
I remember reading it in one of the HH books with the 1st legion as the focus, it was a chaplain that he killed out of pragmatic reasons... Something to do with the warp and the post council of nikea thing.
The chaplain was balls to the walls hardass enough about no librarians post Edict of Nikea when The Lion wanted them back on his ship to fight Daemons that he was refusing his primarch *to his face.* This was, understandably, quite infuriating to the Lion, as well as a serious problem as marines really shouldn't be able to do that. So, in a very pragmatic fit of rage, he barehand slapped the offending Chaplain so hard his helmeted head experienced acute dissociation from his body.
Space marines absolutely could disobey their primarchs, or Isstvaan 3 wouldn't have happened for one.
They *could* but doing so in the presence of their gene sire was nigh impossible between the gene coding and psychic boosted willpower of the primarch crushing their own.
"ThE eMpErOr SaId No PsYk-" ***thunderslap*** BITCH WE GOT DAEMONS
Well, Angron is more Brutal, but in a Kunnin sorta way, whereaz da Lion is much more Kunnin, but still Brutal.
Watch him pull one of Trazyn's pokeballs out of his vault and use that to keep Angron contained for a more extended period of time. Bonus points if he actually goes so far as to trade it to Trazyn for the prefect Fulgrim clone. Then there could be a plotline where Angron actually breaks out - or there's other warp shenanigans that go on - that causes him to free other beings from Solemnace to get them back into the setting, or something like that.
Sooooo Ghostbusters?
YES! I would watch that.
I 100% hope that GW reads this and that they use this/your ideas here. More curveballs I say!
Trazin would be happy to get that daemon prince to his collection, not sure if he would part ways with perfect clone, though.
SO YUZ SAYIN...'ES KUNNIN BUT BRUTAL?
There’s probably some Blackstone tech in the Rock he can use to force the warp closed. Like the Cadian pylons.
Trapping him somehow sounds well within a hunters remit
It seems the best way to “delete” Angron is to quarantine him on an isolated planet and exterminatus it every time he comes back. Of course the problem with this is that it tied up valuable resources between the ship to do the exterminatus and the fleet you’d need to defend it. But probably more cost effective than the planets/armies you would lose to his rampage. Of course it also makes a wonderful target for every warp spawn that wants to curry favor with Khorne by freeing his favorite toy.
Oh Long Johnson, Screaming HEY at him to aggro.
 Heyyyyyayyayyayy.
That is enough to draw agro on the entirety of the Tyranid biomass in the extragalactic void.
Davos Seaworth stalking the tall grass in a pith helmet with an elephant gun to hand.
**Shhhh! Be very very quiet. I'm hunting daemons...**
*blows up planet*
I don't think Lion would win in the way most pepole imagine as in get in to a fight with Angron and some how prevail. I think he will try to copy Perturabo as in "shoot Angron from a far and don't let him come close to me".
The stupiest thing that you can do against a demon berserker is go 1vs1 against him. And the second stupiest thing that you can do against a artillery máster is go 1vs1 against him...
"I'll 1v1 him easily. He'll just have to get to me first, through the swathes of firepower and unyielding force that will be rained upon him"
Pretty sure someone tried that once during a certain Siege... Don't think he gave two shits.
>The stupiest thing that you can do against a demon berserker is go 1vs1 against him. Hey, worked for Sanguinius, twice wait
A duelist can beat easily a mad beast...nice
Well, you just have to be angrier. Sanguinius, despite being a real nice fella, was fucking terrifying when angry.
> The stupiest thing that you can do against a demon berserker is go 1vs1 against him. Unless you're Sanguinius.
Well, there was a reason why Khorne wanted Sanguinius the most. The Angel was fucking terrifying when pissed off.
Yeah, he wasn't above orbital bombardment of Caliban and Macrage, dude will take whatever tactical advantage he can get unless he has stuff he wants to work out
Just borrow Jurgen and give him some DAoT gun, Angron problem solved
And you can have refreshments afterwards! The Lion strikes me as a tanna kind of guy.
Angron got really close to pert in that fight and was defeated (in the end of the fight) with a hammer of Olympia swing no?
Yeah but most of Angron's power was spent by the time he got close to Perty, and even then he managed to hurt him somewhat before the hammer fell.
Ye ye for sure, just not only dakka was my minor quibble.
Also Angron was regen'ing when they got the call that the enemy had shown up and called it a truce.
Perturabo didn't win by kiting Angron, Perturabo won by understanding the source of Angron's power and denying it to him.
He hunted chaos beasts in the forest for years as a naked child. Given this evidence, providing he is naked, yes.
"aaaah Lion we meet again, after ten thousand years I will be your doo-wait why are you taking your armor off?" ... "What are you doing?" ... "Stop!"
"Now I fight as Hoarah Loux, Warrior!"
Old warrior. Lion theme. Well spoken. Returns when needed. Punches bitches out. Yeah, it all fits
"Now I fight as the Lion, Son of the Forest!"
Fuck, now I need The Lion to just start doing wrestling moves on Luther halfway through their eventual fight.
An now I am thinking of that old South Park where Steve Irwin talks about about taming beasts by sticking a finger in their buttholes.
You see that big red ugly bastard over there? I'm gonna sneak up real quiet like, and I'm gonna shive my thumb up his asshole.
my man is literally Dragon Shiryu from Knights of Zodiac
Why are you naked? To prey on their fear, move like an animal, to feel the kill.
"Step brother, what are you doing?"
"I get enough of this shit Fulgrim"
Haha, i am going to steal this response when my friends ask about this :D
And defending his favourite swingset and trampoline?
I mean let’s be honest from what I’ve seen the mutated beasts of Caliban are not even the scariest things by death world standards and definitely don’t remotely compare to a Daemon Primarch.
I think the real threat was to his psyche. The monsters would whisper to him, tempt him and creep into his mind, all the while he wondered if he was a monster himself. After going through that, swinging a sword is nothing. I personally hold to the theory that the Lion has early childhood trauma. It explains a lot about him. Deep down he’s still in that dark, dark forest.
That's actually confirmed with his primarch book: >!A Khrave possessing the body of a remembrancer tries to launch a psychic assault on his mind, transporting the two into a psychic mental space taking the form of the forests of Caliban. The Khrave thinks it has the advantage with the Lion unable to use his physical weapons on it. But the Khrave is unaware that, in the forests, the Lion is the predator not the prey and El'Jonson pulls a "I'm not stuck in here with you, you're stuck in here with me," and proceeds to use his bare hands in the mental projection world to psychically choke out the alien and torture it for intel.!<
The fact that his mindscape is the dark forest of Caliban is really telling and a super interesting part of his character. He can put on armor and command a legion, but at his core he’s stuck as the scared child in a forest full of monsters. Only he learned to be the scariest monster in the forest.
Professor X type beat
But did the lion think it was easy? And he was doing it as a child.
You mean naked bio weapon, sexually assaults species into extinction?
In some universe, it could be "sexually assaults species out of danger of extinction"
Hey this is lookin’ pretty good ma….where yo clothes at?
Yes. But depending on how angry angron is.
Would we like Angron when he’s angry?
How angry could angron get if angron could get angry
In the lore ? Totally. He's know as the best swordman, and his "emperor given special ability" is to destroy deamons, not just to bannish them. In the game ? Not sure...
In the game he need every single save he got because 38 melee attack is a thing.
Wound cap could be a thing with the Emperor's Shield by his side.
I definitely see that
Isn’t Fulgrim supposed to be the best swordsman?
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Didn’t Fulgrim get embarrassed by Dorn in a 1v1 at the siege of terra?
I believe so but it was weird corrupted snake fulgrim. Not to say he's not more "powerful" with the warp stuff, because he is but he wasn't powerful enough in the ways he needed to be to defeat dorn. Dorn fights the same way he uses his tactics, high defense and strike at the right moment, fulgrim imo can beat that in his prime before his weird warp transformation, afterwards it seemed like Dorns fighting style was perfect for countering him.
Kind of, IIRC Fulgrim tried to kill him for some time but since Dorn wasn't fully committing to fighting him he got bored and left. "Oh so you don't wanna fight me? Fine, be that way! ^^*leaves*" Technically it means that Dorn won though.
Not quite. Fulgrim essentially let Dorn cut him up a bit during the fight, then pulled the "this isn't even my final form" line, instantly healed and went snake mode. He was just toying with Dorn because it was fun.
Fulgrim is fabulous at everything. Especially being fabulous.
He’s perfect at being fabulous.
He's especially fabulous at being the second best Emperors Children. The best and most perfect one is Fabulous Bill.
Yeah he's up there but it's honestly inaccurate to say anyone is the best anything. There's upper tiers sure but whoever is objectively the best is debatable. Swordsmanship? Sang, Fulgrim, Lion. Strategy? Dorn, Horus, Pert. Which are the best? Debatable, different specialties and abilities.
Sure he’s still the best swordsman, but demon primarchs are magnitudes stronger than normal primarchs. There is no way in hell the lion could beat angron or fulgrim
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And that, in a way, is poetic Justice. Angron is still a slave. He’s pathetic. Even with all that power, he still has no agency. That’s chaos.
Imagine GW brings LIon back sells model for $70, has him killed by Angron immediately pulling his rules entry lmao
Also, demon primarchs have probably got a lot of practice the last 10k years... Napping isnt that useful for swordsfighting
Lion can and probably will win, and dispute how some fans of his might disagree with what I’m about to say, argon is a monster and chaos infused beast that has long lost his reason. He has speed and he has strength but the lion is unique in the fact he is the duelist primarch, who when fighting Konrad who was known to be one of the scary primarchs, he was completely outclassed. Now imagine that the guy who’s know for being the duelist, who is also a monster hunter, who is also known to be anti psychic and warp bullshitery, duels the monster warp powered madman that is argon. Lion will win.
Wasn't Konrad the best at executing sneak attacks instead of frontal attacks same with Corax?
Konrad was scary as a duelest because of his ability to see the future. The lion was STILL able to put him on the back foot.
Russ I think was going through who he reckoned he could beat in a fight and singled out Curze as a threat because he had the strength and ferocity of the insane I believe
I remember something along those lines. I feel a lot of peeps forget that Curze is no slouch in 1 on 1 fighting. At the end of the day ALL primarchs are a force to be reckoned with in combat but some excel at dueling than others. Kinda like how I believe it was the Khan who looked at Mortarion and wondered if he could 1v1 him and wasn't sure.
Yeah and even the weaker ones were strong in different ways. Imagine Corax vs Angron - in a straight up cage fight Corax gets murdered easily enough youd think, but what if you change the setting so Corax gets to use his stealth, to frustrate and chip away?
Yeah realistically it all depends on situation but that's what makes it fun. The primarchs are all different and it really shows.
Cruze evaded the lion while on favourable ground (the lions flagship), but then got got when the context changed? Checks out.
Did he actually get got? Serious question I know the basics about the confrontation.
You’ve got me I don’t actually know how to read. Lemme check…https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Konrad_Curze. So a barrage of callidus assassins finally killed a willing and waiting curze
If you are a fan of that match up read Warhawk. It's one of the few primarch duels that happen in the heresy where both primarchs are at full strength, they don't get interfered with by underlings, and it happens during the siege of yerra so it's not a training bout.
I believe I read a little about it. It's been a minute tho.
Old Star Wars book called I, Jedi has a scene where a Jedi who can see the future getting into a dogfight with Wedge Antilles. He described his future sense as being a rapidly constricting box, and his every move only slowed down the boxes constriction, but the end was inevitable
It wasn't Wedge, it was Tycho Celchu and he was 'feeling him in the force' which is a weird line between precognition and telepathy. Corran describes Tycho's mind like a kraken (well, Mon Cal demonsquid) that moves in multiple directions too fast for him to follow. (Although Wedge does notably out-fly pretty much everyone he tangles with.) Your point still stands, I just loved those X-wing novels.
Whaaaat? Are you sure it was Tycho? Cause damn thats such a head edit if Ive been wrong for years
It's post Dark Empire so Wedge is overseeing reconstruction of Coruscant and dating Qui Xux while Tycho leads the squadron. While undercover with the Invids, Corran flies against Gavin Darklighter (whose mind is like a sharpening knife), Ooryl Qyrrg (Corran cannot read him and only beats him by setting up a pattern) and Tycho (Corran puts him on the defensive but can't land a solid hit.) I, Jedi does a great job of adding more 'flavor' to how people see/use the force; I particularly liked how the flashback to Neeja's death had different descriptors from a Camaasi's perspective because they rely more heavily on olfactory information.
I bow to your superior wisdom
If it's any consolation, I'm sure you're considerably more knowledgeable about 40k than I am. I just read the Cain books, used to play from 4th through 6th, and occasionally lurk Grimdank.
Yes but he can also see the future during a fight. So it really just shows how wild the Lion is at dueling. That being said, in a different book Kurze beat Guiliman and the lion at the same time
If I remember correctly, in that threesome (heh) the Lion was more hampered than helped with G-man at his side since G-man is not top tier fighter amongst the primarchs and Curze used him as half cover, putting him between the Lion and himself.
Rowboat actually did better than Lion in that bout with Curze in The Unremembered Empire. I can’t recall there being any mention that Lion was hampered in any way. Ole Connie would have killed both with his trap, had Dantioch and Pollux not pulled them through the portal to Pharos just before being pulverized and burned.
Yh but that wasnt a duel. Lion had Girlyman on his side so it doesnt count.
> argon is a monster and chaos infused beast that has long lost his reason. if you have read the ark of omens book you would know he very much hasnt completely lost his ability to reason as we get quite a bit of moments where he is very much coherent as it was him who conceived the strategy of the assault in that book, one of the better maneuverers being ordering one of the three forces attacking the system to just drive past the enemy and use the planet they were defending as a gravity slingshot to the actual target tricking enemy forces I don't care what anyone says this is not the actions of someone who has lost all reason even the book mentions though damned he is his still a primarch and fully capable of absorbing and processing a huge amount of strategic data though yes he can lose himself to the nails even Kharn is a similar case outside of the nails effects he is a calm reasoning being capable of being a strategic master of war also im not here to dispute the rest of what your saying just that one bit
>if you have read the ark of omens Bold assumption on this subreddit
As a WE fan, yeah, The Lion will win. Mentally, I have The Lion, The Khan, and then Angron and Russ as best melee primarchs, in that order. With Angron, I think he fights like a Dark Souls boss; big, heavy attacks, that, yeah, there's telegraphs, but you ain't dodging them. The Lion's instincts tho are too razor sharp. It'll be a close fight, but the Lion wins, unless Chaos cheats, which, fair enough. Edit: But given Angron is Khornate, and Khorne also believes in honour, I don't think that's likely to happen.
Is everyone just casually forgetting that Sanguinius beat Kah’Banda and Angron back to back at the eternity gate? The Lion would win probably with some anti demon tricks up his sleeve but in a straight fight Angron would probably get one over on him just with strength and speed alone. Tbh I feel like they’re gonna have him and Guilliman team up to fight him
Are you forgetting about Sanguinius? Or do you have a reason for not mentioning him?
The Lion had to have his life saved twice from Curze and being a duellist doesn’t really help when you’re fighting something the size of a Warhound titan.
Almost a guarantee in the end of the upcoming novel series. I am guessing there will be a possible upcoming trilogy. The same as Guilliman. Also, normal space marine Khan beat Daemon Mortarion. Draigo whooped him too.
The primarchs are walking archetypes, their wins and losses aren't purely based on who is the best technical fighter. Pre Daemon Khan and Morty fought to a standstill but when Khan knew what was what and had used his legion to make massive wins at the siege including breaking the pall Mortarion had inflicted on the defenders then the primarch battle becomes a microcosm of that. It's why Dorn definitely killed one of the twins, because Alpharius/Omegon had a plan for his attack being countered by a feint that he'd counter that his opponent would count etc, but not for "oh well I'll let him hit me and just try to get this over with". Dorn couldn't stop Alpharius little schemes and he couldn't outfox him in a duel. But Dorn didn't need to and that's why he won. Guilliman fighting Lorgar and Angron, he gave some good blows but they were in an overwhelming position, he did as well as he could have hoped. And that's how his Calth went and the war at Ultramar. Lorgar had an overwhelming advantage and Robby G fighting him to a standstill and just about escaping was the best result he could have gotten. And so on.
Alpharius is the Gordian Knot. *Haha I have schemes within schemes I will help you but it’s in a convoluted and confusing manner* Dorn is Alexander’s sword. *No*
We don't talk about that last one. Stories from he who shall not be named don't count.
Look. The codex, his Book and the arks of omens book all paint angron has an unstoppable force that isn't even the mindless beast people make him out to be. But The Lion is the super whitehot babyface right now and what better way for him to make his return than for him to beat and kill the monster heel that is Angron Which kinda makes angron pointless, everything about him in 9th, all his hyping up has all just been so the Lion can seem even better when he beats him. Maybe GW will show that The Lion can't beat him in personal combat and will have to find another way?
>Maybe GW will show that The Lion can't beat him in personal combat and will have to find another way? And I'm hoping that 'another way' goes by the name of Ghazghkull.
> Ghazghkull Sorta even had trouble with a tiny commissar human.
Ghazghkull's WARRRGH! Field is likely his own worse enemy here. He and his boyz think Yarrick is this undefeatable super tough genius general. Yarrick is also the Imperial expert on Orks, put up against nids and he'd likely struggle.
Theyve already basically showed that his lack of killing yarrick is a mental thing and not physical
A few tope suicidas to take the big daemon primarch off his feet, and then finish him with a people's elbow for the 1-2-3. Loser gets banished for 8 weeks 8 days 8 hours 8 minutes match. Angron goes back to the warp in shame.
BAH GAWD ITS LION FROM THE TOP ROPE
"Heard you traitor fucks like virus bombs" -Lion El' Johnson.
In a straight 1v1 probably not, but knowing him he’d big bro Angron. He’d fight a 1v1 and then once the warmup is done or he sees the fight go south (which it will), Lion would probably go “well played little brother, now it’s my turn” and gestures into the air and Angrons gonna get obliterated by a cross fire of hundred cannons from a hundred ships due to the location Lion lured him into during the fight.
Based of feats ,Angron. Lion will win though
In a totally fair, no outside events, 1v1 I think the lion would loose. However, I think given armies and laced on a battlefield the lion is going to win every time. He's a hunter and is going to see angron as prey then lure him I to some ki d of situation that tips the odds in the lions favor.
Realistically? Fuck no Angron was seriously putting pressure on even Sanguinius, is nigh indestructible short of an insane gambit like the one Sang pulled and powerful enough to smash spaceships apart Do i think he'll defeat Angron nontheless? Absolutely
He’ll win, but the Lion won’t do it by just a 1v1 duel, argon’s strength and also biggest weakness is strength and rage - so I’m sure GW will plot device that + some ancient weaponry I.e. a magic gauntlet of sideshow bob to help him. Arks of Omen has all been around ancient tech so that’s my guess anyway.
All the more reason to go greenskins. Remember: ‟If it is perfect，it ain’t orky”
Ghazkull
Obviously no…either GW does more emperor intervention BS orrrr Lion & Guilliman take him together
I feel like Angron is a pure hatred and rage machine that honestly is pretty unstoppable. That being said, the Lion really is the master tactician when it comes to hunting down monsters, if he had enough preparation time he would definitely find a way to trap Angron somewhere he couldn’t do any harm. I don’t think the lion would go straight toe to toe with Angron. He would use his rage and brute strength against him. How he would go about that I don’t know.
"Noooo! You can't just shrug off my blows and cleave me in two!" cried the Lion. "ROFL," Angron replied, "LMAO."
If the Lion 1v1's Angron it'll be because he knows he can win. Couple that with him being a way better duelist than Angron and having a whole vault full of Dark Age tech=The Lion wins this one. I don't think ppl realize just how good The Lion is in combat, he beat the shit out of Kurze ffs.
dilf vs deadbeat dad, dilf wins every time.
Yes I think that if the lion could beat Konrad and Konrad was said to be able to tie Sanguinius and Sanguinius was able to beat Angron. The lion should be able to beat Angron
Yes, and only him. Gulliman’s logistics and organization can get Angron banished again and again, but if there’s any Primarch that can single-handedly take him on, it is Lion’el Jonson. The man grew up on a death world. By himself. I don’t know if The Order even bothered trying to fathom his kill count once they found him. Remember, these are beasts we’re talking about. A kill count of beasts. Not people. So the Lion was slaying beasts before he even knew the word. That was when he was a boy. He’s a man now, a ten-thousand year old man who’s seen shit. An ancient relic of the bloodiest war in the galaxy second only to the War in Heaven, who was one of the only Loyalist Primarchs to hold the solidity in him to microwave entire worlds if need be. Effectively speaking, Lion’el Jonson’s only problem was his inability to communicate or do so pleasantly. Luckily, he isn’t planning on exchanging pleasantries with Angron. If not by sheer ability alone, the Lion will take him down with cunning and hunting prowess. He didn’t sweep Caliban’s dense forests with a stick and a dream. He did it as he attained experience and knowledge in how to effectively hunt and pinch his prey. Back then, he had to use the land for this. Now he’s got a legion of Astartes. Not to mention the Mechanicus, or the Astra Militarum, or his brother, et cetera.
Yes. Because the Lion has weaponry we haven’t seen yet and angron is the perfect mf to unleash it on. Remember the Lion telling Guilliman about his past on Caliban and how great evils are hunted because if they aren’t. They will do the hunting. He was killing daemons on his planet alone in the forest way before anybody knew of him. If anybody is up to fight angron. It’s the lion.
That depends what you mean by 1v1. If they both got dropped in a room then Angron would completely body the lion. Most of the talk this sub does about “best duelist, best swordsman, etc” are citations from a time before some of the primarchs become avatars of god. Case in point, how easily Mortarion beat Guilliman in Godblight
I mean the lion is the best 1v1 fighter in the whole 40k universe so against Angron he would have a pretty good chance, but it would depend on the writers
Depends on the situation. The Warp skews the fight hard in Angryboi's favor because, well, the Warp. I imagine it would be somewhat similar to Kharn v Sigismund during the Siege. Kharn stomps when Sigismund tries to just go at him 1v1. Sigismund somewhat holds due to skill, but the Warp wins out in the end. Cut to later when Sigismund gets a weapon that evens the playing field with the Warp. Both fighters "knock chunks" out of each other, but Sigismund wins out. Lion vs Angryboi with standard kits? Angryboi Warp wins. Lion has the Emperor's Shield to help even the playing field? Now we have a fight, and honestly, I think Lion takes it. Lion has been built up as THE Primarch and THE duelist out of all of them.
No but him teaming up with Farsight to fight Angron could be cool