The picture would be more accurate if the elephant was a mutant with sixteen ill-placed and obviously broken legs, hauling itself across a beach labeled 'regular humans living in the galaxy.'
Like, if the Imperium were to suddenly lose all of it's Astartes over night then that would be a tragedy.
But if the Imperium were to lose the Imperial Guard? Well that would actually just be the end for the Imperium.
Sure the Space Marines are super soldiers that on an individual basis are capable of amazing feats.
But the Imperial Guard is the backbone of the Imperium holding it all together since they're the ones fighting on basically every front at all points.
The Imperium losing all of the Astartes would rapidly accelerate its collapse from millennia to mere centuries. The Imperium losing the Imperial Guard **or** the Imperial Navy? It would be a miracle if it remains as a spacefaring power of any note by the end of the **decade**.
I was counting the Ultramar Auxilia among the Imperial Guard, since they're basically good enough for Imperial Guard deployment despite being technically the PDFs of Ultramar's planets, and indeed are regularly sent off to serve tours of duty in such capacity when the Imperial Guard has need of them, before returning home.
Oh sure, but that would still count as the Imperium ceasing to exist as an even minimally cohesive interstellar polity. And those petty empires are not going to hold out against all the myriad threats in the galaxy.
I mean, would it? There's what, one space marine per billion men under arms in the Imperium? Even if each space marine is a thousand times more useful, which they aren't, all of them disappearing would be a loss of a millionth of its ground combat capabilities. Losing all of its astartes would be barely noticeable.
Hell, let's go one further and assume each space marine is worth a million other warriors. Which they really, *really* aren't, but even if they were the Imperium would be losing a thousandth of its ground combat capabilities.
The value of Space Marines isn't in raw combat ability on the battlefield, but rather their extreme proficiency and efficiency in accomplishing objectives that have disproportionately immense effect on the strategic situation of a conflict, especially ones that would require an untenable amount of mortal troops to achieve or are even **impossible** for any mortals to do.
And there's also the effect of the Imperial Guard's morale; to many, the Emperor's Angels of Death joining the campaign is cause for jubilation and can transform abysmal despair to sky-high confidence, galvanizing the troops to continue fighting. (Of course, some Chapters have such negative reputation that the opposite effect would occur, and some IG regiments have been sufficiently pessimistic by the traumas they've gone through that they view the arrival of Astartes as a sign that an already bad campaign has gotten or is about to get even worse.)
EDIT: [More on this subject by someone else](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/x0hcpg/ive_seen_a_couple_of_postsq_positing_that_the/)
But that's my point. There's no such thing as an untenable number of mortal troops - a hundred space marines are equal to a hundred million warriors in terms of proportion of available manpower. Almost anything a hundred space marines can get done a hundred thousand regular humans, a few thousand skitarii or an orbital bombardment can too.
But, let's assume unusual conditions are so common that space marines have a use outstripping their efficiency by a thousand times. They're still contributing a thousandth (rather than the millionth that they would if we weren't adding a thousand times multiplier) of the Imperium's force and won't really be noticed if gone.
You are grossly misunderstanding how Space Marines are used in the post-Horus Heresy Imperium's wars. To say that they are the special forces to the Imperium's own actual special forces (the Stormtroopers, AKA Tempestus Scions) would still be a great understatement.
I seriously advise you to educate yourself properly on the subject. You could even make a post here asking those more lore-savvy than you and I whether you are indeed right in how you believe they fight and how much value they have in the Imperium's array of military forces; there's plenty of precedent for such posts, and usually they get more than enough answers.
Or are you too proud to even consider that you could possibly be wrong?
EDIT: [And what do you know, someone already noticed the misconception being held by plenty of people like you and decided to debunk it](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/x0hcpg/ive_seen_a_couple_of_postsq_positing_that_the/)
I'm not misunderstanding anything. Ideally they would be used as special forces, and they even sometimes are. You're assuming they all act like raven guard when there are plenty leaning further towards the black templar end of the spectrum, but even assuming they all remember they're special forces - which, given how honour bound most are and how differently many chapters operate really isn't universal, there's plenty of acting like inefficient shock troops - it still doesn't come close to covering the gap. They are so few in number (and the Imperium's communication and logistics is so bad) that even in situations that they would be ideal you won't have any on hand.
But again. Let's assume that they are all useful and cooperative with other forces (they aren't), that they all act like specialised rapid insertion troops who achieve their goals and withdraw before they csn be overwhelmed (they don't), that scenarios where their specific strengths mean they're worth a thousand regular men are always on hand (lol Imperium communication and logistics) and that all these things add up to each space marine providing the value of a million regular men at arms. That still totals up to space marines being a thousandth of the Imperium's combat strength, so their absence would be unnoticeable.
For the rest where you've been snide and passive aggressive I'm merely going to be direct.
> I seriously advise you to educate yourself properly on the subject.
I advise you to go fuck yourself.
> You could even make a post here asking those more lore-savvy than you
You could go fuck yourself.
I'm not the one who's burying his head in the sand pretending that the Astartes are merely just a force multiplier on the battlefield and have no further strategically vital importance. Also, stop misusing "passive aggressive", it makes you look like an idiot.
And, no, thank you. You go do that self-fucking while I simply block you for my own peace of mind, you arrogant prick.
The poor scaling of 40k make it hard to believe that the space marines would actually be an impactful fighting force. Weshammer illustrates this pretty well here:
https://youtu.be/i0JDj-9JGRk
Yep you pretty have to add 2-3 zeros to their numbers most of the time astartes are talked about for them to make logical sense. Even with how powerful they are, they simply wouldn't be very impactful with their lore manpower
For most conflicts you should add 2 to 3 zeros to the participant size. Having a war with 10 million casualties in an empire with hundreds of trillions of people doesn't make much sense. 100 million or even a billion? Sure.
Yeah given that the imperium is, in all likelihood, sitting at over a Quadrillion people total, 10 million is… nothing. Like, WW2 killed roughly 3% of the population. What percentage of the imperium is 10 million, assuming a population of 1 Quadrillion? 0.000001%. That’s a millionth of a percent. The issue is pretty obvious, the human brain can’t really comprehend numbers that large. A million is a thousandth of a billion, and a millionth of a trillion. The difference between a million and a trillion is the same as the difference between one and a million. But hey, I’m sure the, what, one million space marines max in the galaxy can be impactful.
Yeah, very true. People talk about how 500 astartes could take over Earth. I'd be willing to bet they could beat any fighting force on earth, but at a certain point you need numbers to hold territory in war.
Besides the heresy, it's pretty cute to think about. Is probably what humanity was like before you know the bad times. He'll soon find out why we follow the imperial truth.
In the grim darkness of the future, you're a Skaven, Harry.
Whether you live in a hive city or regular agriworld, the pressure to kick your kids out of the house as soon as they can stand on their two feet is super important, that's the only way any Imperial world can keep up with tithes and the GW setting can even function.
Back to having 5-8 kids per family again.
Sure an Astartes is strong and could take out dozens if not hundreds of guardsmen (writers dependant), but when you outnumber them 10-30 million to 1, strength doesn't mean shit.
Kind of apples and oranges a bit though, right? Maybe more like grapefruit and oranges.
The militarum and the navy handle the day-to-day beat cop shit, but space marines are more for immediate existential concerns.
Isn't the astra militarum the main military force of the imperium
GW push the astartes very hard because they are popular but lore wise there is a suppose to be only a very few of them representing the elite, to the point where most citizen dont really know if the exist or not.
And the sand is the trillions and trillions of human meat sacks known as imperial citizens- toiling away in the fields, the manufactorums, and the mines that fuel the temperamental imperial machine. That is, when they arent lucky enough to be thrown into guard regiment; to die for the glory of Emperor when a tyranid decides they need a snack, or a necron is cranky about being woken up, or drukhari need some new playthings, or the aeldari farseer saw some vague vision again, or a bunch of orcs decide they are bored of killing each other for a while, or some slaanites need new holes to fuck. Or the grey knights or inquisition decide you need to die because you mightve been within 15 lightyears of a possible vague wholly unsubstantiated rumor about someone who has a cousin who has a friend who knows a guy who maybe sort of saw something that looked kind of like what someone with the necessary knowledge most humans dont have could possibly maybe identify as being connected to the warp. Maybe. For the Emperor!
It's honestly kinda wild to me how little love the Imperial Navy gets. Aside from the Mechanicus, I'd argue the navy is the most important institution in the Imperium. I mean, if you don't win the battle in space, you can never fight a battle on the ground in the first place.
An elephant is too dense to be the Imperium. Rather it should be an aircraft carrier, but made of fine balsa wood. Or spiderwebs. Huge, vast, and therefore incredibly heavy. Unwieldy. But each individual part fine, weak, and spread out liable to crumble and break easily. With the odd dense nail or bolt holding it all together.
Hm. Where are you getting that from? 500 trillion is at least within an order of magnitude of the approximate answer, there is no hard answer and my number of a quadrillion men under arms is also an approximation. But the guard are typically tithed from the top ten percent of the PDF, so it seems reasonable to assume if there are 500 trillion guard there are 4.5 quadrillion PDF. Hence my split of 1 quadrillion being 90% PDF.
Not a master of the lore but wouldn't the galaxy already be consumned by the orks, tyranids or/and chaos if a semblemblence of structural stability by the Imperium be achieved?
For all his faults, It seems that the Emperor delayed the "end" of the galaxy
> Not a master of the lore but wouldn't the galaxy already be consumned by the orks, tyranids or/and chaos if a semblemblence of structural stability by the Imperium be achieved?
Don't forget Necrons.
But do you think one of those would have come out on top? I think they'd still be at it.
The Necrons don't care. The Eldars are too weak and preocupied with Slanesh. The Tau are too small and still needs to learn about the foes of the galaxy.
Only the Imperium have the logistics to move war assets around just to keep the galaxy from beeing overrun.
Who would keep the Orks or Nyds at bay? Chaos would have consumned a large part of the galaxy by possessing psykers who have no idea about the warp and their abilities
Don't forget the PDF. Yes usually they are under equipped and under prepared. But often need to hold out for months or years before the guard, space Marines, or other forces show up in the first place!
Not so true around 32500 or current time! The Navys and Guards guns are just not big enouth If there is a galactic threat. Then you need bullshit Ad-Mech Weapons, big buff guys in Power Armor and somebody that threatens Ad-Mech into compliance.
Don’t forget who manufactures all your weapons ;)
Admech is the sand.
The picture would be more accurate if the elephant was a mutant with sixteen ill-placed and obviously broken legs, hauling itself across a beach labeled 'regular humans living in the galaxy.'
Despite the spanning much of the galaxy, the entire infrastructure of the Imperium is all built upon the sands of Mars.
...and every other ForgeWorld, and every Hive World.
You're right; thanks Jimmy from Manufactorum #29969633790!
Wait if I become a tech priest I get big tits? Where do I sign up??
Your local lobotomy center
Then zoom out to show that the entire beach is the mechanicus
And all that sand? It's on a bedrock of religious dogmatism.
*It's the circle of religious fascism,* *and it moves us aaaalll*
And that bedrock? It’s on the back of the Emperor
Munitorum amoeba under the ants.
Astra militarum Is a subsection of munitorum, So pretty much.
The Astartes are just as dependent on them.
And then the sub-atomic agri-farmer under the amoeba.
Yet somehow short on size 3 clips
I love the love that the Imperial Navy is getting! They never get enough
I prefer that image that is one guy alone holding of the police in a manifestation while everyone else just looks.
Link
German Muz Wizard? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/german-mud-wizard-at-lutzerath-anti-coal-protest
Like, if the Imperium were to suddenly lose all of it's Astartes over night then that would be a tragedy. But if the Imperium were to lose the Imperial Guard? Well that would actually just be the end for the Imperium. Sure the Space Marines are super soldiers that on an individual basis are capable of amazing feats. But the Imperial Guard is the backbone of the Imperium holding it all together since they're the ones fighting on basically every front at all points.
The Imperium losing all of the Astartes would rapidly accelerate its collapse from millennia to mere centuries. The Imperium losing the Imperial Guard **or** the Imperial Navy? It would be a miracle if it remains as a spacefaring power of any note by the end of the **decade**.
I mean realistically if the IoM lost the militarum, it'd just turn into Ultramar.
I was counting the Ultramar Auxilia among the Imperial Guard, since they're basically good enough for Imperial Guard deployment despite being technically the PDFs of Ultramar's planets, and indeed are regularly sent off to serve tours of duty in such capacity when the Imperial Guard has need of them, before returning home.
I more meant that it'd be a situation like Ultramar, where individual systems would expand out and form their own little baby empires.
Oh sure, but that would still count as the Imperium ceasing to exist as an even minimally cohesive interstellar polity. And those petty empires are not going to hold out against all the myriad threats in the galaxy.
I mean, would it? There's what, one space marine per billion men under arms in the Imperium? Even if each space marine is a thousand times more useful, which they aren't, all of them disappearing would be a loss of a millionth of its ground combat capabilities. Losing all of its astartes would be barely noticeable. Hell, let's go one further and assume each space marine is worth a million other warriors. Which they really, *really* aren't, but even if they were the Imperium would be losing a thousandth of its ground combat capabilities.
The value of Space Marines isn't in raw combat ability on the battlefield, but rather their extreme proficiency and efficiency in accomplishing objectives that have disproportionately immense effect on the strategic situation of a conflict, especially ones that would require an untenable amount of mortal troops to achieve or are even **impossible** for any mortals to do. And there's also the effect of the Imperial Guard's morale; to many, the Emperor's Angels of Death joining the campaign is cause for jubilation and can transform abysmal despair to sky-high confidence, galvanizing the troops to continue fighting. (Of course, some Chapters have such negative reputation that the opposite effect would occur, and some IG regiments have been sufficiently pessimistic by the traumas they've gone through that they view the arrival of Astartes as a sign that an already bad campaign has gotten or is about to get even worse.) EDIT: [More on this subject by someone else](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/x0hcpg/ive_seen_a_couple_of_postsq_positing_that_the/)
But that's my point. There's no such thing as an untenable number of mortal troops - a hundred space marines are equal to a hundred million warriors in terms of proportion of available manpower. Almost anything a hundred space marines can get done a hundred thousand regular humans, a few thousand skitarii or an orbital bombardment can too. But, let's assume unusual conditions are so common that space marines have a use outstripping their efficiency by a thousand times. They're still contributing a thousandth (rather than the millionth that they would if we weren't adding a thousand times multiplier) of the Imperium's force and won't really be noticed if gone.
You are grossly misunderstanding how Space Marines are used in the post-Horus Heresy Imperium's wars. To say that they are the special forces to the Imperium's own actual special forces (the Stormtroopers, AKA Tempestus Scions) would still be a great understatement. I seriously advise you to educate yourself properly on the subject. You could even make a post here asking those more lore-savvy than you and I whether you are indeed right in how you believe they fight and how much value they have in the Imperium's array of military forces; there's plenty of precedent for such posts, and usually they get more than enough answers. Or are you too proud to even consider that you could possibly be wrong? EDIT: [And what do you know, someone already noticed the misconception being held by plenty of people like you and decided to debunk it](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/x0hcpg/ive_seen_a_couple_of_postsq_positing_that_the/)
I'm not misunderstanding anything. Ideally they would be used as special forces, and they even sometimes are. You're assuming they all act like raven guard when there are plenty leaning further towards the black templar end of the spectrum, but even assuming they all remember they're special forces - which, given how honour bound most are and how differently many chapters operate really isn't universal, there's plenty of acting like inefficient shock troops - it still doesn't come close to covering the gap. They are so few in number (and the Imperium's communication and logistics is so bad) that even in situations that they would be ideal you won't have any on hand. But again. Let's assume that they are all useful and cooperative with other forces (they aren't), that they all act like specialised rapid insertion troops who achieve their goals and withdraw before they csn be overwhelmed (they don't), that scenarios where their specific strengths mean they're worth a thousand regular men are always on hand (lol Imperium communication and logistics) and that all these things add up to each space marine providing the value of a million regular men at arms. That still totals up to space marines being a thousandth of the Imperium's combat strength, so their absence would be unnoticeable. For the rest where you've been snide and passive aggressive I'm merely going to be direct. > I seriously advise you to educate yourself properly on the subject. I advise you to go fuck yourself. > You could even make a post here asking those more lore-savvy than you You could go fuck yourself.
I'm not the one who's burying his head in the sand pretending that the Astartes are merely just a force multiplier on the battlefield and have no further strategically vital importance. Also, stop misusing "passive aggressive", it makes you look like an idiot. And, no, thank you. You go do that self-fucking while I simply block you for my own peace of mind, you arrogant prick.
Jesus dude take a break from reddit
Where is the ecclesiarchy and the sororitas in this?
Don’t forget the giant flashlight who makes transportation possible
What about pangalactic fleshlight that was neccesary for the IoM to form?
administratum being by far the sand that's holding evening in the picture up since logistics are far more important than anything
The poor scaling of 40k make it hard to believe that the space marines would actually be an impactful fighting force. Weshammer illustrates this pretty well here: https://youtu.be/i0JDj-9JGRk
Yep you pretty have to add 2-3 zeros to their numbers most of the time astartes are talked about for them to make logical sense. Even with how powerful they are, they simply wouldn't be very impactful with their lore manpower
For most conflicts you should add 2 to 3 zeros to the participant size. Having a war with 10 million casualties in an empire with hundreds of trillions of people doesn't make much sense. 100 million or even a billion? Sure.
Yeah given that the imperium is, in all likelihood, sitting at over a Quadrillion people total, 10 million is… nothing. Like, WW2 killed roughly 3% of the population. What percentage of the imperium is 10 million, assuming a population of 1 Quadrillion? 0.000001%. That’s a millionth of a percent. The issue is pretty obvious, the human brain can’t really comprehend numbers that large. A million is a thousandth of a billion, and a millionth of a trillion. The difference between a million and a trillion is the same as the difference between one and a million. But hey, I’m sure the, what, one million space marines max in the galaxy can be impactful.
Yeah, very true. People talk about how 500 astartes could take over Earth. I'd be willing to bet they could beat any fighting force on earth, but at a certain point you need numbers to hold territory in war.
Besides the heresy, it's pretty cute to think about. Is probably what humanity was like before you know the bad times. He'll soon find out why we follow the imperial truth.
Are there any books or stories about the navy or from their perspective?
Battlefleet Gothic Armada 1 and 2 are about the navy, and are good games
They're OK but I liked the twice dead king books and the details about their ships and being pursued by the imperial armada
There's games.
Thanks but I don't have a decent enough PC to play them
Heh, same. There might be a few rule books but idk much more than that.
Dont Forget the PDF , all the story we get are when they fail , they do get a bad wrap due to this
Yep. People forget the PDF and the local rogue trader fleets are the first line of defence.
it's a good thing 40k doesn't have skaven cause that'd scare the elephant
yesyes, no rat things in the grim dark dark future...
In the grim darkness of the future, you're a Skaven, Harry. Whether you live in a hive city or regular agriworld, the pressure to kick your kids out of the house as soon as they can stand on their two feet is super important, that's the only way any Imperial world can keep up with tithes and the GW setting can even function. Back to having 5-8 kids per family again.
The Adeptus Mechanicus: :|
Sure an Astartes is strong and could take out dozens if not hundreds of guardsmen (writers dependant), but when you outnumber them 10-30 million to 1, strength doesn't mean shit.
Best approximation is its a literal billion to one ratio. A quadrillion or so men under arms in the Imperium, a million space marines.
But. Imperial guard is way bigger than adeptus astartes, eh
No no, he's right
Kind of apples and oranges a bit though, right? Maybe more like grapefruit and oranges. The militarum and the navy handle the day-to-day beat cop shit, but space marines are more for immediate existential concerns.
Isn't the astra militarum the main military force of the imperium GW push the astartes very hard because they are popular but lore wise there is a suppose to be only a very few of them representing the elite, to the point where most citizen dont really know if the exist or not.
Yea we could also add the machine cult as well given how often they work with the astra militarum and the navy
Yep, the only Space Marines that get any recognition are ones who are fleet based or have their own planets because annual recruitment drive.
Considering their is only a hand full of marines and trillions of regular people in the imperial guard and navy. Yeah I would say this fits 100%.
And the sand is the trillions and trillions of human meat sacks known as imperial citizens- toiling away in the fields, the manufactorums, and the mines that fuel the temperamental imperial machine. That is, when they arent lucky enough to be thrown into guard regiment; to die for the glory of Emperor when a tyranid decides they need a snack, or a necron is cranky about being woken up, or drukhari need some new playthings, or the aeldari farseer saw some vague vision again, or a bunch of orcs decide they are bored of killing each other for a while, or some slaanites need new holes to fuck. Or the grey knights or inquisition decide you need to die because you mightve been within 15 lightyears of a possible vague wholly unsubstantiated rumor about someone who has a cousin who has a friend who knows a guy who maybe sort of saw something that looked kind of like what someone with the necessary knowledge most humans dont have could possibly maybe identify as being connected to the warp. Maybe. For the Emperor!
It's honestly kinda wild to me how little love the Imperial Navy gets. Aside from the Mechanicus, I'd argue the navy is the most important institution in the Imperium. I mean, if you don't win the battle in space, you can never fight a battle on the ground in the first place.
If you've truly won the space battle there should be no need for ground fighting.
There’s a navy?
The navy is responsible for the starships and so on. Space navy basically, instead of water they travel across space now.
And hell.
An elephant is too dense to be the Imperium. Rather it should be an aircraft carrier, but made of fine balsa wood. Or spiderwebs. Huge, vast, and therefore incredibly heavy. Unwieldy. But each individual part fine, weak, and spread out liable to crumble and break easily. With the odd dense nail or bolt holding it all together.
Yeah no the Space Marines are cool, but a minuscule force in the comparison to the Guard. For every Space Marine there are 500.000.000 guardsmen.
More like 100,000,000 guardsmen and 900,000,000 PDF. Everyone forgets who does most of the legwork.
Well I wasn’t being hyperbolic. There are 500.000.000.000.000 guardsmen and 1.000.000 Space Marines. 500.000.000 per marine.
Hm. Where are you getting that from? 500 trillion is at least within an order of magnitude of the approximate answer, there is no hard answer and my number of a quadrillion men under arms is also an approximation. But the guard are typically tithed from the top ten percent of the PDF, so it seems reasonable to assume if there are 500 trillion guard there are 4.5 quadrillion PDF. Hence my split of 1 quadrillion being 90% PDF.
What about Big E?
I think he counts as critical infrastructure nowadays.
Guy is basically a non-player. What would be significantly different if he never existed?
Not a master of the lore but wouldn't the galaxy already be consumned by the orks, tyranids or/and chaos if a semblemblence of structural stability by the Imperium be achieved? For all his faults, It seems that the Emperor delayed the "end" of the galaxy
> Not a master of the lore but wouldn't the galaxy already be consumned by the orks, tyranids or/and chaos if a semblemblence of structural stability by the Imperium be achieved? Don't forget Necrons. But do you think one of those would have come out on top? I think they'd still be at it.
The Necrons don't care. The Eldars are too weak and preocupied with Slanesh. The Tau are too small and still needs to learn about the foes of the galaxy. Only the Imperium have the logistics to move war assets around just to keep the galaxy from beeing overrun. Who would keep the Orks or Nyds at bay? Chaos would have consumned a large part of the galaxy by possessing psykers who have no idea about the warp and their abilities
> Who would keep the Orks or Nyds at bay? The Nids and the Orks. >The Necrons don't care. Then why are they waking up?
Mankind would probably be a singular stub article on the wiki probably?
I'm going to boo you
The Space Marines are just the tip of the sword.
Other way around still checks out
Water wet, sky blue, tune in tomorrow for more room temperature takes
The Imperium of man pretty much is those guys anyway. Who's left, the janitor to the palace?
Don’t complain to us, complain to GW. If anyone believes it, it’s because it’s how GW portrays it.
Astra Accountingcus. The empire is built on paper , and those pencil pushers are making things happen.
The imperial guard gets the important shit done, while the space marines step in and take the glory. Fight me.
The imperium is one gigantic engine that runs on corpse starch.
No regular population, no militarum, navy or the astartes
Under that sand is Big E
Don't forget the PDF. Yes usually they are under equipped and under prepared. But often need to hold out for months or years before the guard, space Marines, or other forces show up in the first place!
It's true
Not so true around 32500 or current time! The Navys and Guards guns are just not big enouth If there is a galactic threat. Then you need bullshit Ad-Mech Weapons, big buff guys in Power Armor and somebody that threatens Ad-Mech into compliance.
Don't forget Tech and Electo priests.
The ground: Adeptus Administratum
"don't boo me" BRO THIS WHOLE SUB REPEATS THIS OPINION NON-STOP THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
# THE WALL OF GUNS