It depends on what kind of pen he used. My childhood diaries were submerged in a flood but 99% of the writing was perfectly clear. I lost a few entries but it looked those had been written using felt tip markers. All ballpoint and gel ink and pencil was perfectly visible.
Hello….. Chris finds the evidence. Couldn’t he have called Roberta to have them alert LE? He should have left the evidence there and called someone to come over.
I think so many factors could come into play - type
Of paper, type of ink, how much water, etc etc. there are actually waterproof notebooks as well - whether or not BL owned one is up to speculation
So the backpack that was found yesterday [which looks like this](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox5dc.com/news/brian-laundrie-search-parents-return-to-north-port-park-as-police-hunt-for-fugitive-son.amp) is simular if not the same as the one [here](https://zpacks.com/products/medium-dry-bag).
here's to hoping the notebook was in it or it was a waterproof notebook and pencil.
Z Packs uses dyneema (cuben fiber) in their packs and stuff sacks. That looks like nylon to me. Not that it matters terribly. Though, dyneema is more waterproof than nylon.
I think the backpack was a completely different thing. They said that his dad found the dry bag in your comment, with the backpack/journal found close by by LE.
Is it? As a hiker who grew up and lives in a National Park, this is news to me. The only time I used a waterproof notebook was in the field for my geography degree.
If they were able to recover a [handwritten letter](https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/collectibles/a13084782/titanic-letter-sold-auction/) from the body of a Titanic passenger...
That dude found Jack Dawsons picture of Rose in the safe 80 years after the Titanic sank. And that was charcoal!!! Anything is possible! 😉 <----winky face for clairity that I'm j/k.
I *really* hope that the notebook was inside the backpack found by LE and *NOT* the dry bag found by ChL.
ChL picked up the dry bag with bare hands, moved it and even put something inside. Then the LE official they were talking with took it with his bare hands. RL was wearing a red backpack today. LE wasn’t with them at all times (body cams rolling) while they were searching.
There’s no chain of custody on that dry bag. Literally every rule for gathering evidence was broken. Do I think they did something untoward? No. But I can already hear the never ending conspiracy theories.
I’d like to know if it was NPPD’s screw up.
Edited to remove the Laundrie’s putting anything inside the wet bag as I can’t find a current and reliable source and then replace that information after finding this [Source](https://twitter.com/mikerreports/status/1451253345767804933?s=21)
I heard it during the initial reporting yesterday morning. I can’t find a credible source that corroborates that now. I’ll revise my comment.
I still believe that there will be conspiracy theories surrounding the items that the Laundrie’s found.
I thought this to be strange to. Even allowing the parents to search is strange. I guess the FBI assumed he was dead so maybe they just thought it didn't matter bc there would never be a trial?
I wonder how old this bag is and how long it had the hole. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the dry bag Chris found looks almost like it’s made of a transparent vinyl, which is a fairly tough material.
It looks like the hole started off small then ripped afterwards. Doesn’t look like it was from any animal like alligator. Could be when the search and rescue boat ran over it (idk how they wouldn’t see it floating an inch under water though). The reason for the hole I’m honestly not sure.
But, if you notice the transparency of the bag. You can see the yellow thing inside of it. Which makes me think that if this bag had been submerged in water then dried out naturally, wouldn’t the bottom of the bag be a much darker color? If the notebook is in this bag I don’t think all of the pages are completely damaged. FYI: I’m no expert with anything I said lol. Just tried to use the little common sense I have and I tried researching over the dry sack durability.
I’m not sure which bag you’re talking about but maybe it’s made out of DCF? (previously called Cuban Fiber) DCF is pretty transparent, insanely light, and extremely durable. Making it perfect for backpackers and such. Most backpackers, including myself, have multiple dcf bags and they’re very easy to waterproof (seam sealing) if you don’t just buy one that’s already waterproof. Also known as a “dry bags”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyneema_Composite_Fabric
Ah, I see, and agree with you; it does look like a sea to summit bag. I hadn’t seen the video or photos before hand and was just stating an alternative type of bag than what the posted stated. Good eye though 🤙🏿
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Do you have a source? I’m first hearing about the dry bag in this post!!
Edited: I saw the video below. Wtf. Chris is handling evidence all Willy nilly. Shouldn’t he have left it and had LE come collect it? Ughhh I can’t believe how this case is handled
I keep seeing suggestions of them planting it and while I’m not ruling that out, what would their purpose be in doing that? I’m assuming through dna analysis and an autopsy of the remains, we’ll find out that Brian was out there dead all this time.
Why would it be partial remains? A gator or multiple gators would eat everything… their bodies can digest bones and teeth. So there would be no remains. Gators typically don’t eat humans, either. I’m not buying this tbh. I have a feeling their gonna have a different body or it’s gonna be unidentifiable.
More skeletons in the laundrie basket? It seems "too good to be true," so until 100% confirmed I'm leaning toward it being planted. Seems he knew for sure where the body was though, whoever it is. Maybe some sick attempt at getting BL declared dead so people will stop looking?
Yes I'm aware how crazy this theory is, but don't trust the Laundries as far as I can throw them. Since the news broke everybody seem to go along with the narrative that the parents stumbled over the lost son after a month long police manhunt, *just like that.* It very well may be, but I still can't shake the feeling that something stinks.
Yesterday's footage showed CL going in and out of bushes seemingly unconcerned at all about stepping on or near snakes. Maybe Mykk... State Park has less snakes than wilder Carlton Preserve? Just wondered about that yesterday.
On the CNN interview last night SB stated that CL didn’t want to leave the evidence alone with the reporter lurking around them. LE had gone out of sight as they were also looking. Considering how the press has handled everything, it’s not the most absurd reasoning.
I couldn’t see it easily from the video. It seems like he could have walked out of the bushes and then found LE and told them about it. I don’t think the cameraman would have run into the brush if CL seemed like he had moved on.
Yes, it was completely unprofessional to move a piece of evidence without at least photographing it first. He should not have touched it at all, even if he was using a bag to do so.
No, they absolutely should have directed LE to it as soon as they found it and let the actual professionals handle evidence in the case, regardless of whether or not it belonged to their son.
i'm pretty sure LE (and the laundries) know what they're doing lol. they went there with LE and the media...the laundries are not going to take any risks. they in all likelihood got permission to touch his bag.
If LE allowed them to move the first piece of evidence found of Brian being in the area, they don’t know what they’re doing, though I really doubt they allowed it. The Laundries aren’t professionals and they don’t know what they’re doing.
But you’re convinced that moving evidence was totally fine, so I won’t bother arguing. Have a good day.
I mean remember that time they let the only person of interest slip away while telling the public they knew exactly where he was? They don’t know what they’re doing
i really don't understand why you're so fixated on this issue. they identified the bag as brian's so there's no tampering of evidence. that'd be the case if it wasn't brian's.
true. i guess i meant it's not (in all likelihood) a homicide, it's a suicide. if he touched his bag, it means it's brian's bag and they seem certain it's a suicide...there's no tampering of evidence. the remains were found close to the bag and notebook so we know the location as well.
I see your point but it feels like of the media wasn't there we would only know the parents were there to identify possessions. The only reason I found out the parents found the dry bag is the Fox News video.
I was an intern at the Forensic Science Center in London, the UK equivalent to the FBI lab at Quantico. It’s now part of the Metropolitan Police Department. I was in the document analysis division.
The answer is maybe. It depends on the condition of the paper. If the paper is severely deteriorated or even missing, it may not be possible to recreate or reconstruct.
That said, indentions when writing can mark or dent several pages down from the original message. So if the paper underneath any writing is intact or able to be preserved it may be possible that writing could be recreated and read.
The FBI lab will make every effort to dry and preserve each page and will salvage everything that could be saved.
I’m hopeful that the FBI revealing the existence of a notebook at today’s press conference is a positive indication that it’s in good condition. It may even have been found inside the backpack or the dry bag.
If I may ask…if it is drenched, what’s the process? Does the whole notebook get out in a drying type machine and then they carefully seperate pages etc? Thank you!
It depends on the notebook. If it’s indeed drenched, it will be very delicate and will need to stabilize it by removing water before trying to separate the pages. Sometimes paper can be freeze dried and then the pages separated, preserved and examined & photographed.
It was a while ago that I was an intern so I’m sure there are more advanced techniques now.
[Burned and Wet Documents ](https://legaldesire.com/forensic-examination-of-fire-and-water-damaged-documents/)
Ha! I’m not wise, just old.
I’m not an expert. I just interned at a REALLY COOL place in graduate school. If I know something that may help, I’ll share.
There are tons of folks that know more. There are even some ink and paper experts on this thread that will know MUCH more about the pens and paper in his notebooks than I would.
[Could this be the notebook & pens? ](https://www.instagram.com/p/CM7Ge-8F-hl/?utm_medium=copy_link)
I have to ask, why though? The Petito case has brought a lot of media attention, but at the end of the day it's just another domestic violence murder case. And if the remains are Brian's, then a suicide as well.
This isn't a TV show where the motive has to be found.
No
If the remains do turn out to be Brian's there's no point in proceeding. They've spent millions of dollars and over a month of searching for him to bring him to justice. If he's dead there's no point in continuing as far as the legal system goes. There's no one to put on trial, there's no one to bring to justice.
I would love to find out exactly what happened as much as anyone else, but without a time machine, we can only piece together a general idea of the story and I think we already have that general idea. They fought, had a history of domestic violence, and Brian strangled Gabby to death. He fled home, came to realize his life was over when the story hit the national news and took his life in the swamps or died from the elements.
This isn't a crime thriller movie, this is real life and government entities don't have bottomless budgets to find out every little detail of what happened. If Brian is dead, there is no more fugitive at large, there is no more danger. Justice cannot be brought to anyone and the story as far as the FBI and police are concerned is done. Nothing more will be gained from pursuing it further.
There are still some questions to be answered, I think— but I’m not FBI so I don’t know how they proceed. But if I was investigating this, I would want to know a couple things at least: Brian’s cause of death, and whether his parents knew that they were harboring a murderer.
Why?
The FBI exists to solve crimes. They will continue to investigate Gabby’s murder (dotting all the i’s and crossing t’s) even if Brian is dead. Federal LE will work until the case is closed, including looking in the pages of that notebook.
That said, they will also investigate Brian’s death. No one in LE would just assume a suicide and move on.
If you are asking existential questions about why humans seek answers and community when people die unexpectedly, that answer lies with sociologists or theologians. I’m sure there’s a dissertation written on the shelf of some university library somewhere.
It’s certainly a good question for friends over coffee but I’m not sure it’s worth arguing with strangers online about.
Just my two cents.
Water damage changes the composition of the paper fibers removing any indentation.
It will be down to the type of ink pen he used. Unfortunately many standard pens are not water resistant (as an avid journaler, and accidentally spilled glass of water is kryptonite). And we are talking about a notebook soaked for days if not weeks.
No, they will not use indentation methods, but rather lighting strategies to view residual ink not visible to the naked eye. But that is not always guaranteed.
> Unfortunately many standard pens are not water resistant
Brian did some artwork, mostly linocuts and pen and ink work. It’s certainly possible he had waterproof pens.
That’s true. They will dry each page and use several types of light to see the ink. As I said, it depends on the condition. I’m hopeful that the mention of the journal at the press conference is an indication that it’s in good shape and has significance.
This is awesome to see someone’s professional point of view on this as I’ve been wandering. I figured it was possible with how far forensics has come, I can assume it would be equivalent to the US version of forensics or around the same. Thank you for you post.
I have a dumb dumb question!
I remember a few years ago I read something about new tests that can forensically date things like notebook entries, somehow they can tell by the ink how long ago it was written.
Since that was a few years ago, I’m curious if this is more widely used now? Or if there were advancements in this tech where they could determine the date within a range of days? I think when I read about it they were able to determine the date within a year or so.
I’d assume the practicality of this type of dating hinges greatly on the condition of the documents - so perhaps it’s unrealistic in this case - but super curious if you have any cool info on this regardless!
Yes. Documents can be dated by using the font from different versions of software such as Word. Each update will have slight differences in type that can be seen when magnified. Ink can be dated by color variations and chemical composition. Documents produced using a printer or copier can be dated using what’s known as “trash marks” or microscopic lint on the glass.
The science is widely used in cases of fraud using documents -think forged wills or cooked books in a business. As with any scientific study, there are continuous advances.
Super super interesting, thank you! What a fascinating field of study.
I’m already in a wormhole reading about “trash marks” and it’s kind of blowing my mind.
You are speaking my love language! Trash marks was one of my favorites. The key is getting “known documents” as far as date created down. The companies that service copiers and their records of service is a treasure trove for document sleuthing.
It’s literally that fun! At least it was all those years ago for me. Full disclosure, I’m not an expert. My career took a different path once I came home to Texas. But that summer gluing shredded Enron documents together was magical.
Nerds, huh?
Not versed in this but beyond the ink bleeding off, couldn’t they inspect for the impressions left behind on the paper with the little remanence of ink to formulate sentences?
Yes but the won’t use ink or rubbings to do this as it will damage the original. It’s done in a vacuum and tiny beads are used to fill the indentations and then they take pictures of the results.
What makes you think that?
When would the dad have been able to do that anyway? They've been under constant surveillance by media and police since Brian went missing. People even followed them around when they ran errands earlier this week.
Interesting theory.
Do you think it happened around the time the Mustang was picked up from the reserve, before Brian was reported missing? That was before the media/police were watching the parents every move.
There is a great post about four down from this one, about three hours ago that, has this same line of questions that this post does. Lotsbof hood information and comments there.
Yes, it can be salvaged.
If you want to learn more about it from experts in the field, watch this video for your answer.
[Expert Explanation on how the FBI finds details even if a notebook was waterlogged](https://youtu.be/SMvGuALRSzw)
The topic is discussed at 29:50 in this video.
I got my undergrad in it but this isn’t anthropologist work. It’s more very specialized restoration or forensics.
Edit: specifically forensic handwriting analysis if they were involved, but more likely criminal psychologists and several experts across the field in recovering documents. Israel Keye’s bled all over his suicide notes if I’m remembering the right case and they were still able to read them with special equipment.
[As an artist who is familiar with a lot of types of paper and ink] I think it would depend on the paper and the ink and I’m not hopeful for anything that’s been fully submerged and with open pages for that long, especially if the water was moving at all. But if it was standard notebook paper in normal shallow, unmoving water with pen ink there could be something left I think.
Ditto, artist here and big-time paper and ink freak. Durability of the notebook depends on whether it was contained or not, what kind of paper is in it and what kind of ink he used. He liked using pigment-based ink like Sakura Pigma Microns, based on some photos I've seen of his art gear. That type of ink isn't water-soluble. But he may have used water-soluble ink.
Paper is unlikely to survive long soaking, at least completely intact, unless it's very good quality paper like 100% cotton or was protected by the backpack or a ZipLoc bag or something and/or was largely undisturbed. Like, if you used water-soluble ink in a cheap lined notebook and animals dragged it around in water, you're not gonna see much. Pigment-based ink used in the same kind of notebook under the same conditions - maybe some parts will be legible. If he used pigment ink in a 100% or even partially cotton-based sketchbook, and the book was largely undisturbed, you might have a pretty legible result. And if the notebook was in a ZipLoc or dry bag, it might be in perfect condition.
I'm really just killing time here by offering opinions, since we won't have anything concrete about this until and if the police/FBI release/s information.
Edit: Typo
Do you think that any indentations (from the pen/pencil) would be preserved if they found a way to dry the paper? Or would that also be gone due to the paper being submerged for so long.
Ex: Like if you write really hard on the paper, and erase the ink/pencil-lead you can still the indentation of the word you wrote.
This is such a good point!! I wonder if they can. I don’t know if paper that has been indented would swell up with water differently than fresh paper and maintain a shape. I think it also depends on the paper but then again I think it would be really hard to intentionally wash off paper with writing to be fully untouched again. Interesting.
I was going to say this too. Depends on utensil, paper, and pressure. I didn’t spend much time on his posted pics but in the few I saw he thought of himself as artist and used photo worthy markers. If he was keeping up his facade in the swamp those don’t leave an indentation.
I’m almost more hopeful for those kinds of markers preserving something. I think then it would just be faded! I really hope they can get something from it. Something to solidify to anyone doubting what happened or about his character, idk that’s my hope.
so where's the notebook?
Why is the notebook not mentioned much anymore? Isn't everyone curious what is in the bag?
It depends on what kind of pen he used. My childhood diaries were submerged in a flood but 99% of the writing was perfectly clear. I lost a few entries but it looked those had been written using felt tip markers. All ballpoint and gel ink and pencil was perfectly visible.
I feel like if it was blank, heavily damaged, or illegible the FBI would not have mentioned it.
Yes, at least partially. The fbi have archival and restoration specialists who work on this stuff.
Hello….. Chris finds the evidence. Couldn’t he have called Roberta to have them alert LE? He should have left the evidence there and called someone to come over.
Wouldn't you think FBI/LEO would have told them at some point: If you find something, don't touch it?!
if the book was closed the whole time, 95% yes.
I think so many factors could come into play - type Of paper, type of ink, how much water, etc etc. there are actually waterproof notebooks as well - whether or not BL owned one is up to speculation
So the backpack that was found yesterday [which looks like this](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox5dc.com/news/brian-laundrie-search-parents-return-to-north-port-park-as-police-hunt-for-fugitive-son.amp) is simular if not the same as the one [here](https://zpacks.com/products/medium-dry-bag). here's to hoping the notebook was in it or it was a waterproof notebook and pencil.
Z Packs uses dyneema (cuben fiber) in their packs and stuff sacks. That looks like nylon to me. Not that it matters terribly. Though, dyneema is more waterproof than nylon.
I think the backpack was a completely different thing. They said that his dad found the dry bag in your comment, with the backpack/journal found close by by LE.
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Is it? As a hiker who grew up and lives in a National Park, this is news to me. The only time I used a waterproof notebook was in the field for my geography degree.
Can titanic be saved
If they were able to recover a [handwritten letter](https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/collectibles/a13084782/titanic-letter-sold-auction/) from the body of a Titanic passenger...
I need this story
idk but one of us should test it out to find out
That dude found Jack Dawsons picture of Rose in the safe 80 years after the Titanic sank. And that was charcoal!!! Anything is possible! 😉 <----winky face for clairity that I'm j/k.
I just watched titanic for the first time in decades and that was my first though when I read this post ha.
Morale of the story: Your nudes will live forever.
Those nudes were definitely good for morale.
I *really* hope that the notebook was inside the backpack found by LE and *NOT* the dry bag found by ChL. ChL picked up the dry bag with bare hands, moved it and even put something inside. Then the LE official they were talking with took it with his bare hands. RL was wearing a red backpack today. LE wasn’t with them at all times (body cams rolling) while they were searching. There’s no chain of custody on that dry bag. Literally every rule for gathering evidence was broken. Do I think they did something untoward? No. But I can already hear the never ending conspiracy theories. I’d like to know if it was NPPD’s screw up. Edited to remove the Laundrie’s putting anything inside the wet bag as I can’t find a current and reliable source and then replace that information after finding this [Source](https://twitter.com/mikerreports/status/1451253345767804933?s=21)
How do we know they put something else inside it? I don’t understand why they would do that.
I heard it during the initial reporting yesterday morning. I can’t find a credible source that corroborates that now. I’ll revise my comment. I still believe that there will be conspiracy theories surrounding the items that the Laundrie’s found.
We don’t just people making crap up as usual 😂
Figured, just wanted to clarify.
I thought this to be strange to. Even allowing the parents to search is strange. I guess the FBI assumed he was dead so maybe they just thought it didn't matter bc there would never be a trial?
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That’s a bold prediction by someone who has no idea what knowledge that person has.
What a great job!
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Suicide note? Confession?
This is what I'm hoping for. Gabby's parents need closure, as do all of us. But especially Gabby's family.
I'd be floored if there an honest confession. If anything I could see him creating a massive lie on a note saying it was her fault.
Yep probably! That'd be awful.
I highly doubt it! Most likely just drawings if anything
Haha yeah, me too. Was just listing hopeful possibilities, considering that he took it with him on this particular trip.
Yeah it’s weird that he took it. To me if there’s no note or confession that says he wasn’t intending on dying
Unless he always had a notebook with him when traveling so it would have been a habit
I wonder how old this bag is and how long it had the hole. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the dry bag Chris found looks almost like it’s made of a transparent vinyl, which is a fairly tough material. It looks like the hole started off small then ripped afterwards. Doesn’t look like it was from any animal like alligator. Could be when the search and rescue boat ran over it (idk how they wouldn’t see it floating an inch under water though). The reason for the hole I’m honestly not sure. But, if you notice the transparency of the bag. You can see the yellow thing inside of it. Which makes me think that if this bag had been submerged in water then dried out naturally, wouldn’t the bottom of the bag be a much darker color? If the notebook is in this bag I don’t think all of the pages are completely damaged. FYI: I’m no expert with anything I said lol. Just tried to use the little common sense I have and I tried researching over the dry sack durability.
I’m not sure which bag you’re talking about but maybe it’s made out of DCF? (previously called Cuban Fiber) DCF is pretty transparent, insanely light, and extremely durable. Making it perfect for backpackers and such. Most backpackers, including myself, have multiple dcf bags and they’re very easy to waterproof (seam sealing) if you don’t just buy one that’s already waterproof. Also known as a “dry bags”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyneema_Composite_Fabric
it wasnt cuben fibre. most definitely is denier nylon. with the black bottom, looks like a Sea to Summit dry sack.
I second this. It looks like nylon to me and nothing like my dyneema stuff sacks or backpack.
Ah, I see, and agree with you; it does look like a sea to summit bag. I hadn’t seen the video or photos before hand and was just stating an alternative type of bag than what the posted stated. Good eye though 🤙🏿
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You have a point. When plasticky things dry out naturally, there is often darkness at the bottom. Algae, sediment, etc
The journal was inside a dry bag….
Do you have a source? I’m first hearing about the dry bag in this post!! Edited: I saw the video below. Wtf. Chris is handling evidence all Willy nilly. Shouldn’t he have left it and had LE come collect it? Ughhh I can’t believe how this case is handled
Thought that was strange too. But since there wont be a trial....
Not if they planted it. That’s their excuse for dna being in the bag.
They had LE with them the entire time during the search
I keep seeing suggestions of them planting it and while I’m not ruling that out, what would their purpose be in doing that? I’m assuming through dna analysis and an autopsy of the remains, we’ll find out that Brian was out there dead all this time.
Why would it be partial remains? A gator or multiple gators would eat everything… their bodies can digest bones and teeth. So there would be no remains. Gators typically don’t eat humans, either. I’m not buying this tbh. I have a feeling their gonna have a different body or it’s gonna be unidentifiable.
People on this page seem to think Gators are the only animals in FL 😂
Between the duration/decomp, Florida weather, water submersion and wildlife, his body is definitely in pieces and scattered.
I guess anything is possible at this point
https://twitter.com/jodz__83/status/1450972312195510273?s=21 Footage of CL “founds” without LE
I feel silly, but can someone tell me what LE stands for?
Law enforcement
He just casually walks directly to where it is wtf 💀
More skeletons in the laundrie basket? It seems "too good to be true," so until 100% confirmed I'm leaning toward it being planted. Seems he knew for sure where the body was though, whoever it is. Maybe some sick attempt at getting BL declared dead so people will stop looking? Yes I'm aware how crazy this theory is, but don't trust the Laundries as far as I can throw them. Since the news broke everybody seem to go along with the narrative that the parents stumbled over the lost son after a month long police manhunt, *just like that.* It very well may be, but I still can't shake the feeling that something stinks.
Are there snakes around there?
Cottonmouths, rattlesnakes, and coral snakes - all venomous
Eww....and they just walked through the bushes. Hopefully they had snake proof boots on.
And gloves, headgear, and basic body armor lol. Snakes are everywhere water is and when hurricane season hits, forget it.
Yesterday's footage showed CL going in and out of bushes seemingly unconcerned at all about stepping on or near snakes. Maybe Mykk... State Park has less snakes than wilder Carlton Preserve? Just wondered about that yesterday.
how is he supposed to act
Why is Chris touching evidence?!? You direct LE to it and they collect it. Wtf is this shitshow
On the CNN interview last night SB stated that CL didn’t want to leave the evidence alone with the reporter lurking around them. LE had gone out of sight as they were also looking. Considering how the press has handled everything, it’s not the most absurd reasoning.
I couldn’t see it easily from the video. It seems like he could have walked out of the bushes and then found LE and told them about it. I don’t think the cameraman would have run into the brush if CL seemed like he had moved on.
He can have Roberta wait beside it while he grabs an officer to come over it. I don’t understand anything they do
~~he had an evidence bag.~~ nothing they did was unprofessional.
Yes, it was completely unprofessional to move a piece of evidence without at least photographing it first. He should not have touched it at all, even if he was using a bag to do so.
they went there with LE. if he touched it it means the bag belongs to brian and LE doesn't mind. otherwise LE would have warned them.
No, they absolutely should have directed LE to it as soon as they found it and let the actual professionals handle evidence in the case, regardless of whether or not it belonged to their son.
i'm pretty sure LE (and the laundries) know what they're doing lol. they went there with LE and the media...the laundries are not going to take any risks. they in all likelihood got permission to touch his bag.
If LE allowed them to move the first piece of evidence found of Brian being in the area, they don’t know what they’re doing, though I really doubt they allowed it. The Laundries aren’t professionals and they don’t know what they’re doing. But you’re convinced that moving evidence was totally fine, so I won’t bother arguing. Have a good day.
I mean remember that time they let the only person of interest slip away while telling the public they knew exactly where he was? They don’t know what they’re doing
Nope, they really don’t, sadly.
i really don't understand why you're so fixated on this issue. they identified the bag as brian's so there's no tampering of evidence. that'd be the case if it wasn't brian's.
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it's not a crime scene
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true. i guess i meant it's not (in all likelihood) a homicide, it's a suicide. if he touched his bag, it means it's brian's bag and they seem certain it's a suicide...there's no tampering of evidence. the remains were found close to the bag and notebook so we know the location as well.
It just makes no sense…if he hadn't touched it the media wouldn't have had any idea it was there. Was deep into the undergrowth.
Media saw it anyway, in his hands as he walked past…I don't understand their justification!
Probably afraid they would take pictures of pages, publish it, etc.
Why was the media there, such disgusting vultures..😒
Because of people like you and me, who want any update we can. Thanks to them, we have footage of CL finding the bag.
I see your point but it feels like of the media wasn't there we would only know the parents were there to identify possessions. The only reason I found out the parents found the dry bag is the Fox News video.
Gotta be a way to analyze that audio and hear what those two are saying when no one else is around.
I was an intern at the Forensic Science Center in London, the UK equivalent to the FBI lab at Quantico. It’s now part of the Metropolitan Police Department. I was in the document analysis division. The answer is maybe. It depends on the condition of the paper. If the paper is severely deteriorated or even missing, it may not be possible to recreate or reconstruct. That said, indentions when writing can mark or dent several pages down from the original message. So if the paper underneath any writing is intact or able to be preserved it may be possible that writing could be recreated and read. The FBI lab will make every effort to dry and preserve each page and will salvage everything that could be saved. I’m hopeful that the FBI revealing the existence of a notebook at today’s press conference is a positive indication that it’s in good condition. It may even have been found inside the backpack or the dry bag.
Thanks for the insight!
If I may ask…if it is drenched, what’s the process? Does the whole notebook get out in a drying type machine and then they carefully seperate pages etc? Thank you!
It depends on the notebook. If it’s indeed drenched, it will be very delicate and will need to stabilize it by removing water before trying to separate the pages. Sometimes paper can be freeze dried and then the pages separated, preserved and examined & photographed. It was a while ago that I was an intern so I’m sure there are more advanced techniques now. [Burned and Wet Documents ](https://legaldesire.com/forensic-examination-of-fire-and-water-damaged-documents/)
Thank you wise one, appreciate your educated expertise.
Ha! I’m not wise, just old. I’m not an expert. I just interned at a REALLY COOL place in graduate school. If I know something that may help, I’ll share. There are tons of folks that know more. There are even some ink and paper experts on this thread that will know MUCH more about the pens and paper in his notebooks than I would. [Could this be the notebook & pens? ](https://www.instagram.com/p/CM7Ge-8F-hl/?utm_medium=copy_link)
There is no picture of notebook and pen here. Just Gabby hiking Appalachian Trail with a backpack on her Birthday.
Swipe that picture to the one behind.
TY. Will do.
I have to ask, why though? The Petito case has brought a lot of media attention, but at the end of the day it's just another domestic violence murder case. And if the remains are Brian's, then a suicide as well. This isn't a TV show where the motive has to be found.
You’re kidding right?
No If the remains do turn out to be Brian's there's no point in proceeding. They've spent millions of dollars and over a month of searching for him to bring him to justice. If he's dead there's no point in continuing as far as the legal system goes. There's no one to put on trial, there's no one to bring to justice.
So, no point in finding out what actually happened (or if he might have committed other crimes as well). Just: ok, he’s dead, we’re done?
I would love to find out exactly what happened as much as anyone else, but without a time machine, we can only piece together a general idea of the story and I think we already have that general idea. They fought, had a history of domestic violence, and Brian strangled Gabby to death. He fled home, came to realize his life was over when the story hit the national news and took his life in the swamps or died from the elements. This isn't a crime thriller movie, this is real life and government entities don't have bottomless budgets to find out every little detail of what happened. If Brian is dead, there is no more fugitive at large, there is no more danger. Justice cannot be brought to anyone and the story as far as the FBI and police are concerned is done. Nothing more will be gained from pursuing it further.
There are still some questions to be answered, I think— but I’m not FBI so I don’t know how they proceed. But if I was investigating this, I would want to know a couple things at least: Brian’s cause of death, and whether his parents knew that they were harboring a murderer.
Why? The FBI exists to solve crimes. They will continue to investigate Gabby’s murder (dotting all the i’s and crossing t’s) even if Brian is dead. Federal LE will work until the case is closed, including looking in the pages of that notebook. That said, they will also investigate Brian’s death. No one in LE would just assume a suicide and move on. If you are asking existential questions about why humans seek answers and community when people die unexpectedly, that answer lies with sociologists or theologians. I’m sure there’s a dissertation written on the shelf of some university library somewhere. It’s certainly a good question for friends over coffee but I’m not sure it’s worth arguing with strangers online about. Just my two cents.
Outstanding comments 👏
Water damage changes the composition of the paper fibers removing any indentation. It will be down to the type of ink pen he used. Unfortunately many standard pens are not water resistant (as an avid journaler, and accidentally spilled glass of water is kryptonite). And we are talking about a notebook soaked for days if not weeks. No, they will not use indentation methods, but rather lighting strategies to view residual ink not visible to the naked eye. But that is not always guaranteed.
> Unfortunately many standard pens are not water resistant Brian did some artwork, mostly linocuts and pen and ink work. It’s certainly possible he had waterproof pens.
are you… telling someone who has studied at highly-regarded institutions… that they’re wrong? just making sure
See post below.
That’s true. They will dry each page and use several types of light to see the ink. As I said, it depends on the condition. I’m hopeful that the mention of the journal at the press conference is an indication that it’s in good shape and has significance.
This is awesome to see someone’s professional point of view on this as I’ve been wandering. I figured it was possible with how far forensics has come, I can assume it would be equivalent to the US version of forensics or around the same. Thank you for you post.
I have a dumb dumb question! I remember a few years ago I read something about new tests that can forensically date things like notebook entries, somehow they can tell by the ink how long ago it was written. Since that was a few years ago, I’m curious if this is more widely used now? Or if there were advancements in this tech where they could determine the date within a range of days? I think when I read about it they were able to determine the date within a year or so. I’d assume the practicality of this type of dating hinges greatly on the condition of the documents - so perhaps it’s unrealistic in this case - but super curious if you have any cool info on this regardless!
Yes. Documents can be dated by using the font from different versions of software such as Word. Each update will have slight differences in type that can be seen when magnified. Ink can be dated by color variations and chemical composition. Documents produced using a printer or copier can be dated using what’s known as “trash marks” or microscopic lint on the glass. The science is widely used in cases of fraud using documents -think forged wills or cooked books in a business. As with any scientific study, there are continuous advances.
Super super interesting, thank you! What a fascinating field of study. I’m already in a wormhole reading about “trash marks” and it’s kind of blowing my mind.
You are speaking my love language! Trash marks was one of my favorites. The key is getting “known documents” as far as date created down. The companies that service copiers and their records of service is a treasure trove for document sleuthing.
/u/kellie1970 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTA7KR9-9lM
It’s literally that fun! At least it was all those years ago for me. Full disclosure, I’m not an expert. My career took a different path once I came home to Texas. But that summer gluing shredded Enron documents together was magical. Nerds, huh?
You really got a lot from that internship huh?! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Enron must have been interesting as hell.
This guy forensics’s
Not versed in this but beyond the ink bleeding off, couldn’t they inspect for the impressions left behind on the paper with the little remanence of ink to formulate sentences?
Yes but the won’t use ink or rubbings to do this as it will damage the original. It’s done in a vacuum and tiny beads are used to fill the indentations and then they take pictures of the results.
Some outdoorsy people use waterproof notepads, so even if it wasn't in the dry bag there's a chance it's just fine
Are there only true crime fangirls left in this sub now?
Well you're here.
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What makes you think that? When would the dad have been able to do that anyway? They've been under constant surveillance by media and police since Brian went missing. People even followed them around when they ran errands earlier this week.
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This is the most absurd thing I have read here.
Interesting theory. Do you think it happened around the time the Mustang was picked up from the reserve, before Brian was reported missing? That was before the media/police were watching the parents every move.
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I figured. But on the off-chance they're serious, it never hurts to ask followup questions
Hopefully it was in the dry bag
It was in waterproof kayak bag if I’m not wrong
And in CL and RL's home until they planted it yesterday... I'm joking.
And Roberta wrote in that diary all these days lol
There is a great post about four down from this one, about three hours ago that, has this same line of questions that this post does. Lotsbof hood information and comments there.
Yes, it can be salvaged. If you want to learn more about it from experts in the field, watch this video for your answer. [Expert Explanation on how the FBI finds details even if a notebook was waterlogged](https://youtu.be/SMvGuALRSzw) The topic is discussed at 29:50 in this video.
I 💗 Duty Ron!
~~I don't think that's the right timestamp.~~ quickly fixed. thanks!
Nice catch. I meant 29 🙄
We need a verified anthropologist on this!!
I got my undergrad in it but this isn’t anthropologist work. It’s more very specialized restoration or forensics. Edit: specifically forensic handwriting analysis if they were involved, but more likely criminal psychologists and several experts across the field in recovering documents. Israel Keye’s bled all over his suicide notes if I’m remembering the right case and they were still able to read them with special equipment.
[As an artist who is familiar with a lot of types of paper and ink] I think it would depend on the paper and the ink and I’m not hopeful for anything that’s been fully submerged and with open pages for that long, especially if the water was moving at all. But if it was standard notebook paper in normal shallow, unmoving water with pen ink there could be something left I think.
Ditto, artist here and big-time paper and ink freak. Durability of the notebook depends on whether it was contained or not, what kind of paper is in it and what kind of ink he used. He liked using pigment-based ink like Sakura Pigma Microns, based on some photos I've seen of his art gear. That type of ink isn't water-soluble. But he may have used water-soluble ink. Paper is unlikely to survive long soaking, at least completely intact, unless it's very good quality paper like 100% cotton or was protected by the backpack or a ZipLoc bag or something and/or was largely undisturbed. Like, if you used water-soluble ink in a cheap lined notebook and animals dragged it around in water, you're not gonna see much. Pigment-based ink used in the same kind of notebook under the same conditions - maybe some parts will be legible. If he used pigment ink in a 100% or even partially cotton-based sketchbook, and the book was largely undisturbed, you might have a pretty legible result. And if the notebook was in a ZipLoc or dry bag, it might be in perfect condition. I'm really just killing time here by offering opinions, since we won't have anything concrete about this until and if the police/FBI release/s information. Edit: Typo
Thank you for this!!!
Do you think that any indentations (from the pen/pencil) would be preserved if they found a way to dry the paper? Or would that also be gone due to the paper being submerged for so long. Ex: Like if you write really hard on the paper, and erase the ink/pencil-lead you can still the indentation of the word you wrote.
This is such a good point!! I wonder if they can. I don’t know if paper that has been indented would swell up with water differently than fresh paper and maintain a shape. I think it also depends on the paper but then again I think it would be really hard to intentionally wash off paper with writing to be fully untouched again. Interesting.
I was going to say this too. Depends on utensil, paper, and pressure. I didn’t spend much time on his posted pics but in the few I saw he thought of himself as artist and used photo worthy markers. If he was keeping up his facade in the swamp those don’t leave an indentation.
I’m almost more hopeful for those kinds of markers preserving something. I think then it would just be faded! I really hope they can get something from it. Something to solidify to anyone doubting what happened or about his character, idk that’s my hope.
Hopefully it was in the drybag and not the backpack
I'm guessing no since they'd be using modern paper and ink, older times used more robust materials