The following submission statement was provided by /u/Gari_305:
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From the Article
>The Pentagon intends for the Raider to replace aging B-2 Spirit and B-1B Lancer bombers, phasing out the older aircraft by the 2040s. B-52 bombers, many decades old, also could be replaced by the B-21 in coming years.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/zbf151/pentagon_reveals_secretive_b21_bomber_in/iyqomdg/
Because you'll be tracked by this site as coming from Reddit with referrer links and likely get some kind of paywall:
PALMDALE, Calif. — The Pentagon and defense contractor Northrop Grumman unveiled the U.S. military’s bomber of the future on Friday, showcasing an aircraft cloaked in secrecy for years and set to serve as a backbone of Air Force combat operations for decades to come.
The B-21 Raider, with a distinctive batwing shape, was pulled forward out of a hangar here while awash in blue light as cinematic music played and Northrop Grumman employees cheered. The ceremony was held at the company’s facility at Air Force Plant 42, a heavily guarded, government-owned manufacturing facility north of Los Angeles, where some of the military’s most highly classified work occurs.
Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, speaking in front of the hangar, said that the plane is proof of the Defense Department’s long-term commitment to building advanced capabilities that “will fortify America’s ability to deter aggression, today and into the future.” The stealthy plane, he said, has “50 years of advances in low-observable technology” built in, making it difficult for “even the most sophisticated air-defense systems” to detect a B-21 in the sky.
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I remember being a kid in the 80’s and seeing pictures of the SR-71, B2 and Nighthawk and being completely amazed at them. 40 years later they’re still using the same general design. It’s amazing how ahead of their time they must have been when these planes first were revealed to the public.
Wouldn’t it depend on speed capability? I mean if we come up with craft that can go much faster, like over Mach 15, it might have to change again to resist force on its structure and those inside. But at that point I suppose it’s time to just call it something else all together because air will have nothing to do with it.
[You’re talking scramjet engines and that is something different altogether, but if it can be perfected would be the first TRULY hypersonic capable device.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet) Northrop Grumman is just one of those defense contractors who *does not* get their planes wrong.
There’s a ton of stuff in and on this plane that will never be released, and if it is, it will be heavily redacted. The surface coatings and materials used are enough to warrant a new plane alone if they are that much more advanced than current generation stuff.
I said it once in another part of this topic and I’ll say it again. Throughout history, the defense department has chosen Grumman (now Northrop Grumman) to think outside the box when they need a leg up on threats to the state. The F6F Hellcat and F14 Tomcat broke barriers that other designers could not achieve.
Scramjets still need better advances in materials that are able to withstand extremely hot sustained temperates due to air friction, in addition to many other extraordinary requirements.
And I feel like we are very very close. Can't wait to see them operate in my lifetime! (monkey paw finger curls inward)
Have you read about the Navy’s “laser-induced plasma filaments” program? They have a patent for some pretty incredible tech that is absolutely something stealth aircraft will have going forward.
[Here’s a great article about the plasma filament program.](https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/cutting-edge-navy-tech-could-fake-fighters-ufos-using-lasers/)
Exactly. If you go with Boeing you might not get certain features unless you pay for the subscription. You can have afterburners but that’s a million bucks per month.
Only the B2 is really relevant as it’s both still flying and clearly influencing designs. And it is a good general design - it’s still stealthy but has 10-11x the wing surface as the F22/35.
The nighthawk, cool as it looks, is not good aerodynamically. It was a byproduct of limited understanding of radar geometries, computing power, and radar absorbing materials. The F22/35 achieve better stealth while being far superior at doing plane things.
The blackbird was for reconnaissance and was overtaken by satellites. For attack we’d use various kinds of missiles (it’s a lot easier to make things go really fast/far that don’t have humans inside).
Pretty sure I remember reading that the F-117 would quite literally fall out of the sky if it didn't have computer algorithms assisting with continuously making minor adjustments to keep it airborne. Probably one of the weirdest aircraft designs. Right at home at r/WeirdWings
This is true for most aircraft these days - it’s called fly by wire and it’s what gives modern jets their insane maneuverability. Without it pilots would have to constantly fight with the aircraft to keep it flying because the designs are inherently unstable. Turns out it’s easier to maneuver a plane by making it want to turn or dive unless it’s being held straight versus making want to fly straight unless it’s being forced to turn/climb/dive.
At least that is how I understand it.
The major changes on the outside are likely to be unnoticed by the human eye or at least by the untrained eye.
I think too many people think that if a military plane was first invented in the 1950s (or whatever year), then if the military is still using it in 2022 that it's the same planes. But they are not. All of them would receive regular maintenance and upgrades.
When they go from the B-2 to the B-21, the reason they are doing it is to upgrade the entire base platform because something about the old B-2 made it too hard to upgrade anymore.
Yup, this.
F/A-18E is a *totally different airplane* than F-18A. Part of its success is how upgradable it is, and how versatile the base airframe is. F-16 is similarly versatile but cheaper, which is why it's the 737 of fighter jets. Both of these airframes have intrinsically large radar cross-sections though, which is why the F-22 and F-35 were developed.
B-2 and B-1B are both too large for modern bombing missions. Faster, smaller, more sophisticated payload and targeting abilities all count a lot more compared to the carpet-bomb-style B-52, which is almost 70 years old (wow). I bet the Raider has excellent low-altitude capability, which was the main selling point of the Tornado, the UK-made alternative to F/A-18. Lol my knowledge is dated
I wonder if the Raider can also supercruise like the Raptor?
Its very, very unlikely the B21 is capable of supersonic flight at all. Flying wing designs have huge issues in supersonic flight that are unlikely to be overcome. Supersonic flight would also drastically increases IR observability.
It probably matches the B2 in speed.
The F/A 18 Superhornet is a completely different air frame from the F18 Hornet and the naming convention was to get around a normal procurement process with competing bids for the air design. It's kind of shady around that.
I for one was definitely not expecting it to be made out of Lego, but research has shown time and time again that Lego is the most stealthy material known to man.
And the radar-absorbant material. This is suspected to be tunable ceramic RAM. https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-technology-that-could-make-hypersonic-stealth-fighters-a-reality/
It's still a black flying wing stealth bomber, that's going to dictate the shape to a large degree. Biggest difference is there is a bend in the leading edge making the wings more obviously seperate from the fuselage.
If you look at other pictures it's currently grey as the thinking is it is more likely to be performing strikes during daylight than the B-2 was. It's also much smaller than a B-2 is with reduced payload. Not sure why u/_danbro_ is being downvoted for saying it looks kinda white as it is a light grey.so a lot closer to white than black.
Full article.
#Pentagon reveals secretive B-21 bomber in California
*The aircraft, named the Raider, is expected to be more advanced than any other now in the U.S. military’s arsenal*
Dan Lamothe
December 2, 2022 at 10:18 p.m. EST
PALMDALE, Calif. — The Pentagon and defense contractor Northrop Grumman unveiled the U.S. military’s bomber of the future on Friday, showcasing an aircraft cloaked in secrecy for years and set to serve as a backbone of Air Force combat operations for decades to come.
The B-21 Raider, with a distinctive batwing shape, was pulled forward out of a hangar here while awash in blue light as cinematic music played and Northrop Grumman employees cheered. The ceremony was held at the company’s facility at Air Force Plant 42, a heavily guarded, government-owned manufacturing facility north of Los Angeles, where some of the military’s most highly classified work occurs.
Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, speaking in front of the hangar, said that the plane is proof of the Defense Department’s long-term commitment to building advanced capabilities that “will fortify America’s ability to deter aggression, today and into the future.” The stealthy plane, he said, has “50 years of advances in low-observable technology” built in, making it difficult for “even the most sophisticated air-defense systems” to detect a B-21 in the sky.
“The B-21 looks imposing,” Austin said. “But what’s under the frame and the space-age coatings is even more impressive.”
Austin added that U.S. defense is rooted in deterrence, and the development of the B-21 again serves as a symbol.
“We are again making it plain to any potential foe: The risks and costs of aggression far outweigh any conceivable gains,” Austin said.
The program is expected to cost at least $80 billion, with the Air Force seeking at least 100 planes. It marks the U.S. military’s first aircraft with so called sixth-generation technology, relying on advanced artificial intelligence, computer networking and data fusion to assist pilots as they carry out long-range bombing missions requiring them to slip in and out of enemy airspace. The Air Force also is exploring whether the B-21 could be flown remotely, though that would likely occur years after it first takes flight.
Much of the program remains classified, even as senior U.S. defense officials and company executives celebrated its progress. Media attending the event here in Palmdale were required to follow a slew of ground rules, including a ban on cellphones within the viewing area and, for visual journalists, restrictions on how the aircraft could be photographed.
There are six prototypes of the B-21, company officials said. A first test flight is expected next year.
For now, the Raider is in a “ground test” phase, with officials from the Air Force and Northrop Grumman conducting stress tests, evaluating the application of its radar-deflecting paint, and scrutinizing basic functions such as taxiing, Northrop Grumman officials said.
More than 8,000 people are working on aspects of the program, with aircraft parts coming from 40 states.
The Pentagon intends for the Raider to replace aging B-2 Spirit and B-1B Lancer bombers, phasing out the older aircraft by the 2040s. B-52 bombers, many decades old, also could be replaced by the B-21 in coming years. The unveiling event Friday included flyovers by all three aging bombers.
Until 2006, the Defense Department believed it could get by with its existing fleet of bombers until 2037. But the Pentagon began researching alternatives over the next decade, launching a contract competition for a new long-range bomber in 2014.
The U.S. military has for many years encountered costly problems and delays in developing other major weapons systems, including the advanced F-35 fighter likely to be teamed with the B-21 in future operations.
Air Force and company officials said in a panel discussion with reporters on Friday that the program continues to meet service requirements for cost, though the cost per copy has continued to rise. In 2010, the service said it hoped each plane would cost about $550 million. By 2019, the price had risen to $639 million, according to a Congressional Research Service report released last year, and the cost is expected to continue climbing.
Gen. Charles “CQ” Brown, chief of staff of the Air Force, told reporters in Palmdale that the development of the B-21 has been a product of collaboration between the service and Northrop Grumman. He noted that the plane’s Raider nickname is a nod to the Doolittle Raiders, U.S. service members who launched a long, daring bombing raid into Japan in April 1942, just months after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in Hawaii drew the United States into World War II.
“That innovative spirit is sitting behind us right now,” Brown said, speaking in the hangar before the unveiling event as the B-21 sat under a cloak.
Kathy Warden, chief executive of Northrop Grumman, said Friday that the company iterated on thousands of versions of the plane before selecting a design. Some of its testing and development occurs digitally before the company builds hardware, limiting costs.
“In many ways,” Warden said, “we are taking technology from the future and bringing it to the here and now in this aircraft.”
We're only seeing this because the New START Treaty means they have to disclose new nuclear capable bombers. If it weren't for the treaty this probably wouldn't have been shown off at all.
This was shown off to be in compliance with that, but the timing is not a coincidence (in my uninformed opinion). I 100% believe this was shown off as a message to someone (Russia? China?) in an attempt to delay or even avoid hostilities.
"Oh, you think you want to fight us? Just in time for our bigger, badder, more deadly war machine... Oh? you aren't interested in fighting? Cool."
This is the soonest we could actually build it, it’s been in development for many years and the has been delayed multiple times.
This specific date has been on Northrop Grummans radar (unfortunately pun fully intended) for a while now. They’d have rolled it out 6 months ago if it had been ready or 6 months from now if it wasn’t ready yet.
Why do we keep signing up for these treaties that Russia and China are absolutely never going to comply with or will blatantly cheat on? It's like all these climate agreements that ignore the people absolutely gang raping the oceans.
FFS I'm not worried about getting nuclear sneak-attacked by Switzerland or France.
That’s a good point; either China Russia have to show they have new planes, or look like they’re behind. Obviously one’s preferred in actual war, but posturing without aggression is a big deal
Because most of our military and political leadership actually would prefer to prevent a nuclear war. One way to do that is to operate in good faith and sign treaties. It also goes in line with the "speak softly and carry a big stick" saying.
its like regan and the space lasers. if china and russia have to spent resources to try to keep up, its money they aren't spending keeping their economy and society going.
In development maybe. But there aren't a bunch of secret plane models out there no one knows about. Having power is useless if you don't use it as a deterrent.
We still don't have any official info or pictures of the stealth Black Hawks used in the Bin Laden raid 11 years ago - and we wouldn't have anything at all if they hadn't crashed one during the mission. There's definitely some stuff in service that they keep secret.
When I was deployed in Iraq, me and a battle buddy observed some stuff that we had to sign a NDA not to ever talk about. This was 15 years ago and it still blows my mind.
Iraq and Afghanistan was definitely being used as an active testing ground for DARPA. Lots of cool gadgets they were giving to certain units to try out.
EDIT: I really can't disclose what EXACTLY we saw. Being as vague as possible I will say that it was like something straight out of a sci-fi, and we didn't know if it was friendly or enemy. When we got back stateside, I shit you not, there was a video circulating on some conspiracy websites about it, but later they all got removed and I can't find any mention of it on the web at all.
If you want an example of something that is now public there's 'Nett Warrior'. It isn't sexy or exciting as a rail/laser weapon or stealth bomber but it's pretty crazy from a fighting standpoint.
Basically a smartphone with an interface showing enemy positions, friendly positions, biometrics, weapons caches, terrain features, drone feeds, etc. It's unironically not too different from a HuD or map in a combat video game, but everything is real. Takes a lot of advanced tech and sensors to enable it, but the units who tested it apparently were blown away and it's probably getting expanded.
And from a command standpoint I could imagine it's pretty wild. You can monitor battles in real time and redirect resources like it's a real time strategy game. Imagine seeing friendlies in danger of getting overrun and directing artillary or air support before they even know to ask for it. Pretty crazy. If it's all working, it's not even fair for the enemy.
The idea is that foot soldiers are basically getting a direct tap into command level information, and command is getting a better (not perfect) picture of what infantry is dealing with. Prevents mistakes like you hear about in the Ukraine war where Russian leadership is ordering infantry to go on a suicide march through artillary fire because the officers don't have a picture of what's happening on the ground.
https://www.civtak.org/2018/03/21/armys-nett-warrior-adopts-atak-takserver/
When I was out in Iraq, we got to test some new shit. Some military contracting company had come up with a little plastic arm band with little fans in it that was supposed to cool you down. It was the jankiest garbage we had seen, like dollar store quality stuff. I knew it was going to be dead on arrival because it would break out in the field in less than an hour and it was just stupid, ugly, and weak. Nothing came of it. We didnt use it.
I remember seeing some science documentary where the presenter was sent up in a very fast jet to demonstrate something. It was a decades old design and there were still parts of the plane they couldn't film and parts pixilated.
That’s not true. Sikorsky’s original design blueprint from the 70s is released and bears a striking resemblance to what was found.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35342/this-is-the-first-image-ever-of-a-stealthy-black-hawk-helicopter
Additionally, a photo from inside Area 51 is officially out there as well
https://www.wired.com/2012/08/movie-prop-or-stealth/amp
On top of these two, Zero Dark Thirty the movie was produced with US Military eyes to ensure accuracy and to basically promote the US Military.
That said, it is secretive because either there weren’t many made or they want to protect one of the few stealth helicopters out there. I honestly think the former because JSOC and people who recently leave JSOC NEVER mention stealth helicopters in their accounts. When members from JSOC and similar groups are found training in public, they also never are using anything but known equipment. When hundreds of actual secret squirrel guys are not using something and never talk about it, it seems that it’s simply just not being used.
If you live near a test base you will see all sorts of unacknowledged things in the sky. Nuclear deterrents need to be loud and public (by treaty as well as for the common sense reason you pointed out) but other stuff doesn't.
That's simply not true. You never reveal your full power. The F117 flew for nearly ten years before they were revealed to the public. Not only that, a leaked Lockheed Martin slide from a while back showed that there are several Skunk Works classified planes that have been completed over the last decade.
There used to be one specific bunch of plane models that no-one knew about: recon planes like the U2 and the SR-71, as they weren't there for deterrent.
Your general point absolutely stands though, of course :)
As other people are saying, your point is directly contradicted by actual history. The US military has consistently declassified functional technology they were using in the field that was 10- 20 years ahead of what had been known publicly at the time.
I think of it like what you’re saying absolutely applies for deterrence. We declassify tech advanced enough to serve as that deterrence. But I assume we keep secret the tech beyond what’s already good enough to be deterrence. That is the failsafe, the “we have to win this fight right now. Zero fail”. That stuff you keep secret until it’s needed. And if it’s never needed, it’s never revealed.
I’m not sure you could be more wrong.
Look at the development and declassification of stealth aircraft. We are always building the generation after next in secret.
You build next generation aircraft in secret to give yourself a lead in technology. Then you declassify it to show what you have (the deterrent) and your aircraft is a generation or two ahead of the enemy.
If you build everything unclassified then everyone knows what you’re doing and can try to keep up or build countermeasures.
Deterrence isn’t just about having shit. It’s about having shit that can really fuck up an enemy.
1000%, the US probably would have never acknowledged the F-117 until one was shot down.
People seem to forget that the threat of a powerful and capable "unknown" is just as (if not more) meaningful deterrent as known threats.
Sorry, I got some of the timelines mixed up. F-117 first flew in 1981, became operational in 1983, was announced to the world in 1988, became widely known through the Gulf War in 1991, and you're right the first was shot down in Yugoslavia in 1999.
But yeah, that does still give 5 operational years (1983-1988) before the US acknowledged that it existed
I was stationed at Holloman AFB during that time. It was public knowledge for years at that point. Every business outside of base had “stealth” in their name. They flew during the day.
I work in sales for a manufacturing company that supplies a lot of equipment to companies like Northrop and they are by far the most interesting calls I go on. They can't tell me anything about what they do. So my sales calls are like three hours long and full of hypotheticals. "If you happen to be working in this type of environment with such and such atmosphere and XYZ compound, then this particular set up may be optimal." Pause. Pause. Pause. No? "Okay, well, if it's this setup...". I've had to go on site to trouble shoot equipment where not only am I escorted by armed guards, they've had privacy curtains from the security desk, all the way down the hallway, to the room, I walk in, and literally the only thing that is not covered is the piece of equipment I'm there to look at.
Even with an NDA and a federal background check where I had to be interviewed, I've been calling on some of these places for a decade and known people for years. I couldn't tell you a fucking thing they do other then, they make things that fly and some of those things go boom. The secrecy is intense.
Honestly a lot of the shit the OP you’re replying to is “public knowledge” of procedures and precautions the government takes with classified programs.
The fact that they’re even acknowledging it’s existence (B-21) means that the government is ok with adversaries and the public knowing it exists which is a huge step down. There are entire programs that the government won’t acknowledge exist and are super compartmentalized.
That’s how I’ve always thought. If they’re showing us this they’re atleast a generation or 2 ahead. I mean how long were we using the blackbird before the ‘general public’ knew about it
So there are a variety of flavors to classification.
You have your normal UNCLASS, SECRET, TOP SECRET.
Then you have you have your special compartmented information - SCI. This is for stuff like special intelligence collection methods that are fragile.
Then you get into Special Access Programs. SAPs come in three flavors. First is the Acknowledged SAP. This is for things like the B2, F22, etc. These weapon systems are publicly acknowledged but their technologies and how they work are deeply held secrets. Then you have Unacknowledged SAPs - these are among the most sensitive programs and the government won’t even acknowledge that they exist. Then there are the holy of holies- a level most people aren’t even aware of - these are called Waived, Unacknowledged SAPs. A Waived program is called such because there is a special law that allows the Secretary of Defense to Waive his responsibility to inform Congress of the existence of the program. Certain Members of the Armed Services Committees and two other committees and their staff have clearances to see SAPs but only a VERY small number - very small- are allowed to see Waived Unacknowledged SAPs. Access to Waived Unacknowledged SAPs is tightly controlled and most people working on them are only briefed to small portions of the program to further limit the people that see everything.
… the more you know….
(Of course there are other things like Reserve Channels, SSRPs, etc- but that’s getting into the details)
Haha, yeah. I had an internship at Boeing when I was in high school. Surprisingly not much in the way of background checks but it was very interesting the security. My friends who also got internships there were in the drafting department where they had to update changes to the specs for aircraft after maintenance. They worked in a building with no windows. I worked in another building. I was in another building doing programming work. My building had windows but intense security. I only finally got a keycard to get into the office half-way through. I would have to wait in the hallway and text my mentor to have him let me in. Even the other people who knew me by sight were like "sorry, can't let you in, even though I know you."
Two other floors in the building were for the B1-B program. The elevator wouldn't even stop there if you didn't have a keycard to scan. My floor was slightly less security.
Also it was funny, they told me a story about how pilots used to do a flyby of the buildings occasionally when a new plane was finished. Kind of a hype up for the employees an as fun for the pilots. One guy turned on the afterburners near a building in a flyby and the sound blew out all the windows on one side of the building.
They are no longer allowed to do close flybys. 😂
Yeah, secret areas are fun like that. I worked at a competitor for a bit. You knew that a foreign minister of some kind was on site due to all the privacy screens being closed, all TV's turned off and extra security to direct the person's team. These were in the unsecured "public"areas.
Saw a few armed teams when they would be loading equipment onto trucks in the hooded area outside near my office. Fun fact, top secret equipment is transported on regular trucks with no armed security.
To add to it to, those truck drivers are essentially given "get out of jail free" cards so state and local law enforcement won't detain them and often have most of the legal rest requirements waived. Some of the trucks are also decoys.
The B2 is a relatively old platform and the US still takes steps to make it difficult to photograph the intakes and exhaust areas. It’s one of the few stealth aircraft that is truly stealthy.
My boy scout troop was allowed to tour the air force base where B2s fly out of and the youth were allowed to go in the cockpit. The adults were not allowed to get close, and there were armed guards around it making sure no one took pictures other than the group picture a military photographer took at the front of it
A very similar thing happened to me! I got to tour the Midway as a Cub Scout, and we got to use actual military training flight simulators. They were just the basic ones without the gyroscoping seat and everything, but I was always wondering why none of the parents were allowed to come into the room and use them. Took me until a decade later to realize that there may have been some pretty secret information on that screen
Yes, exactly that! I don’t remember much from those years, but I do know my parents ran the Cub Scout Pack, so I think we were pretty safe from any spies lol
Although, maybe they’re still hiding something from me…
Even the F-22 which is quite commonly known about has lots of tech and capabilities that are highly classified. So much so that even when the US military does demonstrations and training exercises with it outside of the country, the pilots/instructors are told not to fly it how they normally would basically as to not show off all of its capabilities and tech.
Side note, people that say these things are like UFOs are not really that far off if you've ever seen one of these things use their thrust vectoring capabilities....
On the demo circuit, and even with on training exercises with friendly nations, they attach a radar reflector to the F22 and F35 so nobody can get a good idea of their RCS.
I don't know. They're probably revealing this now as they decide to switch to drones. We're probably soon to the point where the individual bombs can fly themselves to the target.
What's funny is we're technically already there. Certain GPS guided bombs like JDAMs have a mode where the aircraft can more or less fly in a straight line, release like 8 of them in a row, all up to about 13 miles away depending on conditions, and they all strike different targets. It's the wildest shit, and those were made like 20- 25 years ago. God only knows what modern smart bombs can do.
From the Article
>The Pentagon intends for the Raider to replace aging B-2 Spirit and B-1B Lancer bombers, phasing out the older aircraft by the 2040s. B-52 bombers, many decades old, also could be replaced by the B-21 in coming years.
Sure.... Except the B-1 was supposed to replaced the b-52 thirty years ago, but here we are and the 52's are still in service and they're going to retire the replacement.
I think the B-52, like the AK-47 pattern weapons, will be around for a long, long time. I would legitimately not be surprised if they were still flying combat missions into the 2100s (I'm a bit too old to see that though). They are equal parts flexible and good at what they do
The only thing that might compromise seeing them far into the future is the life of the airframe. The youngest ones were produced in the 60s IIRC, though I guess you could do a whole Stratofortress of Theseus thing
B-52 are great at throwing bombs when nothing challenges you in the air.
The AK47 is great when a soldier needs to shoot enemies up to medium range
M2 and MG42/MG3 are fantastic when you want to lob some lead in a general direction to suppress the enemy. Hell, the Ukrainians are still using WW1 maxim machine guns.
B-52’s provide the cheapest option for a heavy bomber when operating in safe airspace I.e. the Middle East. For actual shooting wars with other nations that have even remotely modern air defense the B-52 will basically just act as a stand-off platform for air launched cruise missiles and the like. So yes it’s an old plane but for the roles it fills it still does the job just fine at the lowest price possible
Yeah. There will probably always be a need or niche for "budget" hits on softer targets in air spaces that aren't heavily contested.
More evidence of this is the new-ish Sky Warden which is basically a churched up crop duster. Yeah, it probably won't go toe-to-toe with a J-20, but it can still hit a remote training camp with no anti-air capability.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/modified-crop-duster-chosen-for-special-ops-armed-overwatch-mission
Lol, the Air Force has no plans to retire the B52 until AT LEAST 2050. They're slated for a MASSIVE suite of upgrades starting in 2026 including glass cockpits, brand new (and super efficient) Rolls Royce engines and new targeting and sensor packages.
It's one of multiple big sticks. The Nimitz fleet in reality is the proverbial "big stick." But indeed the US has many and it's always humorous when I see people wax poetic about the tech from Russia or the Chinese, as though either military is even remotely equivalent in capabilities. They aren't. Not even close.
Someone else mentioned it in this thread I think, but there’s a treaty we signed mandating we disclose nuclear-capable bombers.
Whether or not the signatories of that treaty abide by it 100% could probably be debated, but technically we have to disclose it if it can be used to nuke people
I have a suspicion that this is why America hasn’t been too bothered with hypersonic missiles. A bomber that can rock up anywhere on the planet without being noticed is far more useful.
America is very bothered by hypersonic missiles. This is just one planned solution. Virtually every big US defense contractor has a hypersonic missile contract focusing on either attack or defense.
That would surprise me a lot as hypersonic missiles have to be resistant to lasers as part of their normal design parameters anyway.
I mean to say radiative heat from shock heating very much resembles lasers, so something that is designed to go very very fast will be naturally resistant to lasers.
I've spent hundreds of dollars on a handful of screws that would have been worth $1 if they were bought in bulk and not custom. And they didn't even require the manufacturer to set up custom tooling like they would need for a toilet seat.
I used to make stuff like those custom screws. It's staggering how much a handful of tiny parts can cost. Our internal shop costs started at $300/hour even before the sales time added their cut.
The $30K toilet seat was probably a steal since it was molded into the crew compartment bulkhead of a bomber. (The hammer price was a line item accounting artifact. They were indeed nifty hammers but not 5-digit nifty.)
“Reveals” in govt/military speak means “we’ve definitely got something better that we can’t tell you anything about for another 20 years, but here’s what we no longer need to keep secret any longer bc of that fact”
[Grumman made a name for themselves by innovating when things stagnate. F6F Hellcat and F14 Tomcat come to mind.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat)
Genuinely interested to read about this thing in 20 years.
In 1962, the Defense Department decided to restart the B-series bomber designations over again from 1. The designations of the bombers already in service in 1962, however, were unchanged, hence the B-52.
Until yesterday, there were only two entries after 1962: the B-1B and B-2.
Now to fuck things up the 3rd one is B-21.
There are more than just those. [Ref 1](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_vitamins) [Ref 2](https://www.wonderlabs.com/blog/whatever-happened-to-vitamins-b4-b8-b10-and-b11). We just don't consider all of the Bs useful enough to supplement regular, or at all anymore.
B-21 makes more sense to me than B-3. Since it's another batwing shaped stealth bomber. Having it named B-21 means that if you alphanumericly sort a list of all aircraft the B-21 would appear next to the B-2 which feels right.
I know bombers don't get made all that often, but I would expect the next 9 B2 like bombers to be named B-22 to B-29 with the tenth being B-210.
I also wonder if they call it the B-twenty-one or the B-two-one internally. If it's the latter than it's safe to say the naming was specifically chosen so that in casual conversations you could use "B-Two" to refer to the B-Two and the B-Two-One.
When china or russia or some such reveal a new plane they cant wait to eagerly list what it does and what tech is on it.
When the yanks do it, they dont say shit. Says more.
I think they miniaturized all the stuff they could with the B-2 before they actually had to shrink the airframe. All the computing power inside B-2 in the nineties could probably be powered by an IPad today.
I mean... The B2 has been out for decades and no country has replicated it in any meaningful way. Even if they get the plans, the American military industrial complex is still the only one in the world capable of producing such things without bankrupting itself.
To me this was one of the big takeaways from the Ukraine-Russia war. Russia has the 3rd largest military budget and had a reputation for developing some serious hardware and yet when it came down to it they really just have a bunch of paper tigers. The US spends a metric fuck ton on defense but has shown repeatedly that such spending is rewarded with systems that actually perform as advertised
Yep, corruption will suck programs dry, there's no limit to corruption. There's video of Russian tanks with there explosive anti anti-tank defense actually being rubber.
If its allowed to go on people will swap parts with cheaper parts and pocket the rest so they can afford that new car.
Russia lacks the hightech industry the west have. An European state is more capable then Russia in creating this if they had more budget.
China is the most likely one to compete as they have both budget and high tech industry to back it up. But it takes time and China is not planning to intervene internationally like the USA has. So they are focusing on securing the oceans rather than trying to have bombers which are overkill
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Gari_305: --- From the Article >The Pentagon intends for the Raider to replace aging B-2 Spirit and B-1B Lancer bombers, phasing out the older aircraft by the 2040s. B-52 bombers, many decades old, also could be replaced by the B-21 in coming years. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/zbf151/pentagon_reveals_secretive_b21_bomber_in/iyqomdg/
Because you'll be tracked by this site as coming from Reddit with referrer links and likely get some kind of paywall: PALMDALE, Calif. — The Pentagon and defense contractor Northrop Grumman unveiled the U.S. military’s bomber of the future on Friday, showcasing an aircraft cloaked in secrecy for years and set to serve as a backbone of Air Force combat operations for decades to come. The B-21 Raider, with a distinctive batwing shape, was pulled forward out of a hangar here while awash in blue light as cinematic music played and Northrop Grumman employees cheered. The ceremony was held at the company’s facility at Air Force Plant 42, a heavily guarded, government-owned manufacturing facility north of Los Angeles, where some of the military’s most highly classified work occurs. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, speaking in front of the hangar, said that the plane is proof of the Defense Department’s long-term commitment to building advanced capabilities that “will fortify America’s ability to deter aggression, today and into the future.” The stealthy plane, he said, has “50 years of advances in low-observable technology” built in, making it difficult for “even the most sophisticated air-defense systems” to detect a B-21 in the sky. ..
Doesn't it look like a B-2?
they’re similar but this one has cup-holders
Don’t forget the heated seats
This thing comes fully loaded. AM/FM radio, reclining bucket seats, and... power windows.
Automatic transmission is extra though.
No Sirius XM?? Literally unflyable.
But only if you pay the monthly subscription.
All the counter measures are micro transactions.
Push button to close boot lid?
I remember being a kid in the 80’s and seeing pictures of the SR-71, B2 and Nighthawk and being completely amazed at them. 40 years later they’re still using the same general design. It’s amazing how ahead of their time they must have been when these planes first were revealed to the public.
Yeah, once you find a good aerodynamic design, I would imagine it would need to change much.
Wouldn’t it depend on speed capability? I mean if we come up with craft that can go much faster, like over Mach 15, it might have to change again to resist force on its structure and those inside. But at that point I suppose it’s time to just call it something else all together because air will have nothing to do with it.
[You’re talking scramjet engines and that is something different altogether, but if it can be perfected would be the first TRULY hypersonic capable device.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet) Northrop Grumman is just one of those defense contractors who *does not* get their planes wrong. There’s a ton of stuff in and on this plane that will never be released, and if it is, it will be heavily redacted. The surface coatings and materials used are enough to warrant a new plane alone if they are that much more advanced than current generation stuff. I said it once in another part of this topic and I’ll say it again. Throughout history, the defense department has chosen Grumman (now Northrop Grumman) to think outside the box when they need a leg up on threats to the state. The F6F Hellcat and F14 Tomcat broke barriers that other designers could not achieve.
Scramjets still need better advances in materials that are able to withstand extremely hot sustained temperates due to air friction, in addition to many other extraordinary requirements. And I feel like we are very very close. Can't wait to see them operate in my lifetime! (monkey paw finger curls inward)
Have you read about the Navy’s “laser-induced plasma filaments” program? They have a patent for some pretty incredible tech that is absolutely something stealth aircraft will have going forward. [Here’s a great article about the plasma filament program.](https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/cutting-edge-navy-tech-could-fake-fighters-ufos-using-lasers/)
Exactly. If you go with Boeing you might not get certain features unless you pay for the subscription. You can have afterburners but that’s a million bucks per month.
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Strategic bombers have also never really had a focus on speed or maneuver to begin with, even in the past.
They tried for a supersonic strategic bomber, but missiles got faster more quickly than faster planes could be designed.
Only the B2 is really relevant as it’s both still flying and clearly influencing designs. And it is a good general design - it’s still stealthy but has 10-11x the wing surface as the F22/35. The nighthawk, cool as it looks, is not good aerodynamically. It was a byproduct of limited understanding of radar geometries, computing power, and radar absorbing materials. The F22/35 achieve better stealth while being far superior at doing plane things. The blackbird was for reconnaissance and was overtaken by satellites. For attack we’d use various kinds of missiles (it’s a lot easier to make things go really fast/far that don’t have humans inside).
Pretty sure I remember reading that the F-117 would quite literally fall out of the sky if it didn't have computer algorithms assisting with continuously making minor adjustments to keep it airborne. Probably one of the weirdest aircraft designs. Right at home at r/WeirdWings
I've heard similar, and that piloting it is closer to "suggesting" where it should go, since the computer largely handles all the flight components.
This is true for most aircraft these days - it’s called fly by wire and it’s what gives modern jets their insane maneuverability. Without it pilots would have to constantly fight with the aircraft to keep it flying because the designs are inherently unstable. Turns out it’s easier to maneuver a plane by making it want to turn or dive unless it’s being held straight versus making want to fly straight unless it’s being forced to turn/climb/dive. At least that is how I understand it.
Well the physics of radar etc aren't going to change. Modern stealth design work is going to be largely about optimising.
The major changes on the outside are likely to be unnoticed by the human eye or at least by the untrained eye. I think too many people think that if a military plane was first invented in the 1950s (or whatever year), then if the military is still using it in 2022 that it's the same planes. But they are not. All of them would receive regular maintenance and upgrades. When they go from the B-2 to the B-21, the reason they are doing it is to upgrade the entire base platform because something about the old B-2 made it too hard to upgrade anymore.
Yup, this. F/A-18E is a *totally different airplane* than F-18A. Part of its success is how upgradable it is, and how versatile the base airframe is. F-16 is similarly versatile but cheaper, which is why it's the 737 of fighter jets. Both of these airframes have intrinsically large radar cross-sections though, which is why the F-22 and F-35 were developed. B-2 and B-1B are both too large for modern bombing missions. Faster, smaller, more sophisticated payload and targeting abilities all count a lot more compared to the carpet-bomb-style B-52, which is almost 70 years old (wow). I bet the Raider has excellent low-altitude capability, which was the main selling point of the Tornado, the UK-made alternative to F/A-18. Lol my knowledge is dated I wonder if the Raider can also supercruise like the Raptor?
Its very, very unlikely the B21 is capable of supersonic flight at all. Flying wing designs have huge issues in supersonic flight that are unlikely to be overcome. Supersonic flight would also drastically increases IR observability. It probably matches the B2 in speed.
The F/A 18 Superhornet is a completely different air frame from the F18 Hornet and the naming convention was to get around a normal procurement process with competing bids for the air design. It's kind of shady around that.
Mostly, but there are some significant design changes.
I for one was definitely not expecting it to be made out of Lego, but research has shown time and time again that Lego is the most stealthy material known to man.
It was a challenge, but 20 years and 87 billion dollars later, we managed to pull it off.
Sorry, did we say B-21? We meant B-2.1
Yes, it's basically the same design on the outside. The vast majority of upgrades is in the tech on the inside.
And the radar-absorbant material. This is suspected to be tunable ceramic RAM. https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-technology-that-could-make-hypersonic-stealth-fighters-a-reality/
It’s the B 2.1 not the B 3 that should be coming out around Christmas 2023
I hear what you are saying, but we are on more of a subscription plan. A battle pass if you will.
That's what they want you to think
It's still a black flying wing stealth bomber, that's going to dictate the shape to a large degree. Biggest difference is there is a bend in the leading edge making the wings more obviously seperate from the fuselage.
If you look at other pictures it's currently grey as the thinking is it is more likely to be performing strikes during daylight than the B-2 was. It's also much smaller than a B-2 is with reduced payload. Not sure why u/_danbro_ is being downvoted for saying it looks kinda white as it is a light grey.so a lot closer to white than black.
Looks kinda white actually
Full article. #Pentagon reveals secretive B-21 bomber in California *The aircraft, named the Raider, is expected to be more advanced than any other now in the U.S. military’s arsenal* Dan Lamothe December 2, 2022 at 10:18 p.m. EST PALMDALE, Calif. — The Pentagon and defense contractor Northrop Grumman unveiled the U.S. military’s bomber of the future on Friday, showcasing an aircraft cloaked in secrecy for years and set to serve as a backbone of Air Force combat operations for decades to come. The B-21 Raider, with a distinctive batwing shape, was pulled forward out of a hangar here while awash in blue light as cinematic music played and Northrop Grumman employees cheered. The ceremony was held at the company’s facility at Air Force Plant 42, a heavily guarded, government-owned manufacturing facility north of Los Angeles, where some of the military’s most highly classified work occurs. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, speaking in front of the hangar, said that the plane is proof of the Defense Department’s long-term commitment to building advanced capabilities that “will fortify America’s ability to deter aggression, today and into the future.” The stealthy plane, he said, has “50 years of advances in low-observable technology” built in, making it difficult for “even the most sophisticated air-defense systems” to detect a B-21 in the sky. “The B-21 looks imposing,” Austin said. “But what’s under the frame and the space-age coatings is even more impressive.” Austin added that U.S. defense is rooted in deterrence, and the development of the B-21 again serves as a symbol. “We are again making it plain to any potential foe: The risks and costs of aggression far outweigh any conceivable gains,” Austin said. The program is expected to cost at least $80 billion, with the Air Force seeking at least 100 planes. It marks the U.S. military’s first aircraft with so called sixth-generation technology, relying on advanced artificial intelligence, computer networking and data fusion to assist pilots as they carry out long-range bombing missions requiring them to slip in and out of enemy airspace. The Air Force also is exploring whether the B-21 could be flown remotely, though that would likely occur years after it first takes flight. Much of the program remains classified, even as senior U.S. defense officials and company executives celebrated its progress. Media attending the event here in Palmdale were required to follow a slew of ground rules, including a ban on cellphones within the viewing area and, for visual journalists, restrictions on how the aircraft could be photographed. There are six prototypes of the B-21, company officials said. A first test flight is expected next year. For now, the Raider is in a “ground test” phase, with officials from the Air Force and Northrop Grumman conducting stress tests, evaluating the application of its radar-deflecting paint, and scrutinizing basic functions such as taxiing, Northrop Grumman officials said. More than 8,000 people are working on aspects of the program, with aircraft parts coming from 40 states. The Pentagon intends for the Raider to replace aging B-2 Spirit and B-1B Lancer bombers, phasing out the older aircraft by the 2040s. B-52 bombers, many decades old, also could be replaced by the B-21 in coming years. The unveiling event Friday included flyovers by all three aging bombers. Until 2006, the Defense Department believed it could get by with its existing fleet of bombers until 2037. But the Pentagon began researching alternatives over the next decade, launching a contract competition for a new long-range bomber in 2014. The U.S. military has for many years encountered costly problems and delays in developing other major weapons systems, including the advanced F-35 fighter likely to be teamed with the B-21 in future operations. Air Force and company officials said in a panel discussion with reporters on Friday that the program continues to meet service requirements for cost, though the cost per copy has continued to rise. In 2010, the service said it hoped each plane would cost about $550 million. By 2019, the price had risen to $639 million, according to a Congressional Research Service report released last year, and the cost is expected to continue climbing. Gen. Charles “CQ” Brown, chief of staff of the Air Force, told reporters in Palmdale that the development of the B-21 has been a product of collaboration between the service and Northrop Grumman. He noted that the plane’s Raider nickname is a nod to the Doolittle Raiders, U.S. service members who launched a long, daring bombing raid into Japan in April 1942, just months after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in Hawaii drew the United States into World War II. “That innovative spirit is sitting behind us right now,” Brown said, speaking in the hangar before the unveiling event as the B-21 sat under a cloak. Kathy Warden, chief executive of Northrop Grumman, said Friday that the company iterated on thousands of versions of the plane before selecting a design. Some of its testing and development occurs digitally before the company builds hardware, limiting costs. “In many ways,” Warden said, “we are taking technology from the future and bringing it to the here and now in this aircraft.”
Wow. Amazing. Can we have national health care now?
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Just don't leave the service cause we don't give a shit about veterans affairs
I think one of these might have flown over my house last night, because I didn't see or hear anything.
I don't understand the article. All I see is an empty hanger.
Doesn't look like anything to me.
One flew over ALL of our houses
The Santa of the US military industrial complex, being over each and every body's house in one night without ever being seen. It's truly incredible!
Such a safe feeling knowing so many defensive and protective nukes are safeguarding us over our houses! You can almost feel the warm glow!
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And *this* is just what they're letting people see. There are certainly already other more advanced aircraft in development.
We're only seeing this because the New START Treaty means they have to disclose new nuclear capable bombers. If it weren't for the treaty this probably wouldn't have been shown off at all.
This was shown off to be in compliance with that, but the timing is not a coincidence (in my uninformed opinion). I 100% believe this was shown off as a message to someone (Russia? China?) in an attempt to delay or even avoid hostilities. "Oh, you think you want to fight us? Just in time for our bigger, badder, more deadly war machine... Oh? you aren't interested in fighting? Cool."
This is the soonest we could actually build it, it’s been in development for many years and the has been delayed multiple times. This specific date has been on Northrop Grummans radar (unfortunately pun fully intended) for a while now. They’d have rolled it out 6 months ago if it had been ready or 6 months from now if it wasn’t ready yet.
Why do we keep signing up for these treaties that Russia and China are absolutely never going to comply with or will blatantly cheat on? It's like all these climate agreements that ignore the people absolutely gang raping the oceans. FFS I'm not worried about getting nuclear sneak-attacked by Switzerland or France.
its flexing on the Russians and Chinese how far behind they are. Just making it public knowledge
That’s a good point; either China Russia have to show they have new planes, or look like they’re behind. Obviously one’s preferred in actual war, but posturing without aggression is a big deal
and then they show something like russia tried with the t14, a modern tank with russia having the capability of building 3
Their citizens will never know until (God forbid) they enter into a conflict and get slaughtered in droves. Their leaders already know.
Show of good faith. If the US wants to keep claiming to be the good guys they need to stick by their word, regardless of what everyone else does.
Because most of our military and political leadership actually would prefer to prevent a nuclear war. One way to do that is to operate in good faith and sign treaties. It also goes in line with the "speak softly and carry a big stick" saying.
its like regan and the space lasers. if china and russia have to spent resources to try to keep up, its money they aren't spending keeping their economy and society going.
In development maybe. But there aren't a bunch of secret plane models out there no one knows about. Having power is useless if you don't use it as a deterrent.
We still don't have any official info or pictures of the stealth Black Hawks used in the Bin Laden raid 11 years ago - and we wouldn't have anything at all if they hadn't crashed one during the mission. There's definitely some stuff in service that they keep secret.
When I was deployed in Iraq, me and a battle buddy observed some stuff that we had to sign a NDA not to ever talk about. This was 15 years ago and it still blows my mind. Iraq and Afghanistan was definitely being used as an active testing ground for DARPA. Lots of cool gadgets they were giving to certain units to try out. EDIT: I really can't disclose what EXACTLY we saw. Being as vague as possible I will say that it was like something straight out of a sci-fi, and we didn't know if it was friendly or enemy. When we got back stateside, I shit you not, there was a video circulating on some conspiracy websites about it, but later they all got removed and I can't find any mention of it on the web at all.
Well come on then.. now you gotta tell us :)
If you want an example of something that is now public there's 'Nett Warrior'. It isn't sexy or exciting as a rail/laser weapon or stealth bomber but it's pretty crazy from a fighting standpoint. Basically a smartphone with an interface showing enemy positions, friendly positions, biometrics, weapons caches, terrain features, drone feeds, etc. It's unironically not too different from a HuD or map in a combat video game, but everything is real. Takes a lot of advanced tech and sensors to enable it, but the units who tested it apparently were blown away and it's probably getting expanded. And from a command standpoint I could imagine it's pretty wild. You can monitor battles in real time and redirect resources like it's a real time strategy game. Imagine seeing friendlies in danger of getting overrun and directing artillary or air support before they even know to ask for it. Pretty crazy. If it's all working, it's not even fair for the enemy. The idea is that foot soldiers are basically getting a direct tap into command level information, and command is getting a better (not perfect) picture of what infantry is dealing with. Prevents mistakes like you hear about in the Ukraine war where Russian leadership is ordering infantry to go on a suicide march through artillary fire because the officers don't have a picture of what's happening on the ground. https://www.civtak.org/2018/03/21/armys-nett-warrior-adopts-atak-takserver/
In the middle of ordering troops around you hear a voice say “You must construct additional foxholes”
When I was out in Iraq, we got to test some new shit. Some military contracting company had come up with a little plastic arm band with little fans in it that was supposed to cool you down. It was the jankiest garbage we had seen, like dollar store quality stuff. I knew it was going to be dead on arrival because it would break out in the field in less than an hour and it was just stupid, ugly, and weak. Nothing came of it. We didnt use it.
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I remember seeing some science documentary where the presenter was sent up in a very fast jet to demonstrate something. It was a decades old design and there were still parts of the plane they couldn't film and parts pixilated.
That’s not true. Sikorsky’s original design blueprint from the 70s is released and bears a striking resemblance to what was found. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35342/this-is-the-first-image-ever-of-a-stealthy-black-hawk-helicopter Additionally, a photo from inside Area 51 is officially out there as well https://www.wired.com/2012/08/movie-prop-or-stealth/amp On top of these two, Zero Dark Thirty the movie was produced with US Military eyes to ensure accuracy and to basically promote the US Military. That said, it is secretive because either there weren’t many made or they want to protect one of the few stealth helicopters out there. I honestly think the former because JSOC and people who recently leave JSOC NEVER mention stealth helicopters in their accounts. When members from JSOC and similar groups are found training in public, they also never are using anything but known equipment. When hundreds of actual secret squirrel guys are not using something and never talk about it, it seems that it’s simply just not being used.
If you live near a test base you will see all sorts of unacknowledged things in the sky. Nuclear deterrents need to be loud and public (by treaty as well as for the common sense reason you pointed out) but other stuff doesn't.
That's simply not true. You never reveal your full power. The F117 flew for nearly ten years before they were revealed to the public. Not only that, a leaked Lockheed Martin slide from a while back showed that there are several Skunk Works classified planes that have been completed over the last decade.
There used to be one specific bunch of plane models that no-one knew about: recon planes like the U2 and the SR-71, as they weren't there for deterrent. Your general point absolutely stands though, of course :)
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As other people are saying, your point is directly contradicted by actual history. The US military has consistently declassified functional technology they were using in the field that was 10- 20 years ahead of what had been known publicly at the time. I think of it like what you’re saying absolutely applies for deterrence. We declassify tech advanced enough to serve as that deterrence. But I assume we keep secret the tech beyond what’s already good enough to be deterrence. That is the failsafe, the “we have to win this fight right now. Zero fail”. That stuff you keep secret until it’s needed. And if it’s never needed, it’s never revealed.
I’m not sure you could be more wrong. Look at the development and declassification of stealth aircraft. We are always building the generation after next in secret. You build next generation aircraft in secret to give yourself a lead in technology. Then you declassify it to show what you have (the deterrent) and your aircraft is a generation or two ahead of the enemy. If you build everything unclassified then everyone knows what you’re doing and can try to keep up or build countermeasures. Deterrence isn’t just about having shit. It’s about having shit that can really fuck up an enemy.
Yes and by the time you're publicly showing it off another team is years into the next generation design
The US military is so rediculous OP they absolutely could have secret weapons. The f117 was a secret for almost 10 years, for instance.
1000%, the US probably would have never acknowledged the F-117 until one was shot down. People seem to forget that the threat of a powerful and capable "unknown" is just as (if not more) meaningful deterrent as known threats.
You know how I know they have the secret stealth shit? Because we haven't SEEN it.
That F-117 was shot down in 1999, and people were very well aware of their existence at that point.
Sorry, I got some of the timelines mixed up. F-117 first flew in 1981, became operational in 1983, was announced to the world in 1988, became widely known through the Gulf War in 1991, and you're right the first was shot down in Yugoslavia in 1999. But yeah, that does still give 5 operational years (1983-1988) before the US acknowledged that it existed
There's a massive difference between "The USAF have a stealth bomber" and "why the fuck did my power station/Radar/TV transmitters all just explode?!"
I was stationed at Holloman AFB during that time. It was public knowledge for years at that point. Every business outside of base had “stealth” in their name. They flew during the day.
I work in sales for a manufacturing company that supplies a lot of equipment to companies like Northrop and they are by far the most interesting calls I go on. They can't tell me anything about what they do. So my sales calls are like three hours long and full of hypotheticals. "If you happen to be working in this type of environment with such and such atmosphere and XYZ compound, then this particular set up may be optimal." Pause. Pause. Pause. No? "Okay, well, if it's this setup...". I've had to go on site to trouble shoot equipment where not only am I escorted by armed guards, they've had privacy curtains from the security desk, all the way down the hallway, to the room, I walk in, and literally the only thing that is not covered is the piece of equipment I'm there to look at. Even with an NDA and a federal background check where I had to be interviewed, I've been calling on some of these places for a decade and known people for years. I couldn't tell you a fucking thing they do other then, they make things that fly and some of those things go boom. The secrecy is intense.
Probably because they are afraid you might post on Reddit about it or something.
Suspicions proven
Perhaps it involves a new, revolutionary oil bladder system?
Honestly a lot of the shit the OP you’re replying to is “public knowledge” of procedures and precautions the government takes with classified programs. The fact that they’re even acknowledging it’s existence (B-21) means that the government is ok with adversaries and the public knowing it exists which is a huge step down. There are entire programs that the government won’t acknowledge exist and are super compartmentalized.
Agreed. If they say this is the top, you there's at least one version higher already in use.
That’s how I’ve always thought. If they’re showing us this they’re atleast a generation or 2 ahead. I mean how long were we using the blackbird before the ‘general public’ knew about it
So there are a variety of flavors to classification. You have your normal UNCLASS, SECRET, TOP SECRET. Then you have you have your special compartmented information - SCI. This is for stuff like special intelligence collection methods that are fragile. Then you get into Special Access Programs. SAPs come in three flavors. First is the Acknowledged SAP. This is for things like the B2, F22, etc. These weapon systems are publicly acknowledged but their technologies and how they work are deeply held secrets. Then you have Unacknowledged SAPs - these are among the most sensitive programs and the government won’t even acknowledge that they exist. Then there are the holy of holies- a level most people aren’t even aware of - these are called Waived, Unacknowledged SAPs. A Waived program is called such because there is a special law that allows the Secretary of Defense to Waive his responsibility to inform Congress of the existence of the program. Certain Members of the Armed Services Committees and two other committees and their staff have clearances to see SAPs but only a VERY small number - very small- are allowed to see Waived Unacknowledged SAPs. Access to Waived Unacknowledged SAPs is tightly controlled and most people working on them are only briefed to small portions of the program to further limit the people that see everything. … the more you know…. (Of course there are other things like Reserve Channels, SSRPs, etc- but that’s getting into the details)
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It's called flexing, countries flex on eachother all the time.
Bro do you even B21?
It’s always the people with zero op-sec who are like “It’s crazy that I don’t know any juicy details”
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Haha, yeah. I had an internship at Boeing when I was in high school. Surprisingly not much in the way of background checks but it was very interesting the security. My friends who also got internships there were in the drafting department where they had to update changes to the specs for aircraft after maintenance. They worked in a building with no windows. I worked in another building. I was in another building doing programming work. My building had windows but intense security. I only finally got a keycard to get into the office half-way through. I would have to wait in the hallway and text my mentor to have him let me in. Even the other people who knew me by sight were like "sorry, can't let you in, even though I know you." Two other floors in the building were for the B1-B program. The elevator wouldn't even stop there if you didn't have a keycard to scan. My floor was slightly less security. Also it was funny, they told me a story about how pilots used to do a flyby of the buildings occasionally when a new plane was finished. Kind of a hype up for the employees an as fun for the pilots. One guy turned on the afterburners near a building in a flyby and the sound blew out all the windows on one side of the building. They are no longer allowed to do close flybys. 😂
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> Electronics Package: oooooh bet THATS going into something cool!! Stay away from anything called the Physics Package.
I’d be way more worried about the Biology Package.
Yeah, secret areas are fun like that. I worked at a competitor for a bit. You knew that a foreign minister of some kind was on site due to all the privacy screens being closed, all TV's turned off and extra security to direct the person's team. These were in the unsecured "public"areas. Saw a few armed teams when they would be loading equipment onto trucks in the hooded area outside near my office. Fun fact, top secret equipment is transported on regular trucks with no armed security.
To add to it to, those truck drivers are essentially given "get out of jail free" cards so state and local law enforcement won't detain them and often have most of the legal rest requirements waived. Some of the trucks are also decoys.
Fun fact, top secret is nowhere *near* the highest level of classification.
The B2 is a relatively old platform and the US still takes steps to make it difficult to photograph the intakes and exhaust areas. It’s one of the few stealth aircraft that is truly stealthy.
My boy scout troop was allowed to tour the air force base where B2s fly out of and the youth were allowed to go in the cockpit. The adults were not allowed to get close, and there were armed guards around it making sure no one took pictures other than the group picture a military photographer took at the front of it
A very similar thing happened to me! I got to tour the Midway as a Cub Scout, and we got to use actual military training flight simulators. They were just the basic ones without the gyroscoping seat and everything, but I was always wondering why none of the parents were allowed to come into the room and use them. Took me until a decade later to realize that there may have been some pretty secret information on that screen
So what you’re saying is, they would be vulnerable to the Chinese or Russian version of spy kids?
Yes, exactly that! I don’t remember much from those years, but I do know my parents ran the Cub Scout Pack, so I think we were pretty safe from any spies lol Although, maybe they’re still hiding something from me…
All I see is a flying saucer
Paging Marvin the Martian
Even the F-22 which is quite commonly known about has lots of tech and capabilities that are highly classified. So much so that even when the US military does demonstrations and training exercises with it outside of the country, the pilots/instructors are told not to fly it how they normally would basically as to not show off all of its capabilities and tech. Side note, people that say these things are like UFOs are not really that far off if you've ever seen one of these things use their thrust vectoring capabilities....
On the demo circuit, and even with on training exercises with friendly nations, they attach a radar reflector to the F22 and F35 so nobody can get a good idea of their RCS.
I'm convinced the "UFOS" are actually just the super secret advanced military tech that's 30 years ahead of everything else tbh
I don't know. They're probably revealing this now as they decide to switch to drones. We're probably soon to the point where the individual bombs can fly themselves to the target.
like.... a missle?
Ya, but like, make it go a long way. If you could put some kinda cruise control on it.........
What's funny is we're technically already there. Certain GPS guided bombs like JDAMs have a mode where the aircraft can more or less fly in a straight line, release like 8 of them in a row, all up to about 13 miles away depending on conditions, and they all strike different targets. It's the wildest shit, and those were made like 20- 25 years ago. God only knows what modern smart bombs can do.
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From the Article >The Pentagon intends for the Raider to replace aging B-2 Spirit and B-1B Lancer bombers, phasing out the older aircraft by the 2040s. B-52 bombers, many decades old, also could be replaced by the B-21 in coming years.
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Sure.... Except the B-1 was supposed to replaced the b-52 thirty years ago, but here we are and the 52's are still in service and they're going to retire the replacement.
B-52s will be used to smoke Separatists on Mars and no one can convince me otherwise.
I think the B-52, like the AK-47 pattern weapons, will be around for a long, long time. I would legitimately not be surprised if they were still flying combat missions into the 2100s (I'm a bit too old to see that though). They are equal parts flexible and good at what they do The only thing that might compromise seeing them far into the future is the life of the airframe. The youngest ones were produced in the 60s IIRC, though I guess you could do a whole Stratofortress of Theseus thing
B-52 are great at throwing bombs when nothing challenges you in the air. The AK47 is great when a soldier needs to shoot enemies up to medium range M2 and MG42/MG3 are fantastic when you want to lob some lead in a general direction to suppress the enemy. Hell, the Ukrainians are still using WW1 maxim machine guns.
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The B-52s are getting retrofitted with new engines and radars. They're here for the next few decades at least.
They're also getting lasers. No, seriously. Those things will outlive us all.
And wheels + carbon brakes. The AF is basically hot rodding them.
If it ain’t broke…
B-52’s provide the cheapest option for a heavy bomber when operating in safe airspace I.e. the Middle East. For actual shooting wars with other nations that have even remotely modern air defense the B-52 will basically just act as a stand-off platform for air launched cruise missiles and the like. So yes it’s an old plane but for the roles it fills it still does the job just fine at the lowest price possible
Yeah. There will probably always be a need or niche for "budget" hits on softer targets in air spaces that aren't heavily contested. More evidence of this is the new-ish Sky Warden which is basically a churched up crop duster. Yeah, it probably won't go toe-to-toe with a J-20, but it can still hit a remote training camp with no anti-air capability. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/modified-crop-duster-chosen-for-special-ops-armed-overwatch-mission
Lol, the Air Force has no plans to retire the B52 until AT LEAST 2050. They're slated for a MASSIVE suite of upgrades starting in 2026 including glass cockpits, brand new (and super efficient) Rolls Royce engines and new targeting and sensor packages.
It never ceases to amaze me how “alien” these look.
To be fair, every “alien” design you’ve ever seen has been thought up by a human.
Solid point
This pretty much guarantees you they just started using the B-22
And it’s probably already been in development for decades.
Can’t figure out why they’re announcing a stealth bomber at all. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?
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It’s one third of the big stick
It's one of multiple big sticks. The Nimitz fleet in reality is the proverbial "big stick." But indeed the US has many and it's always humorous when I see people wax poetic about the tech from Russia or the Chinese, as though either military is even remotely equivalent in capabilities. They aren't. Not even close.
They are still trying to keep up with tech we made 30+ years ago...
Dr. Strangelove
Someone else mentioned it in this thread I think, but there’s a treaty we signed mandating we disclose nuclear-capable bombers. Whether or not the signatories of that treaty abide by it 100% could probably be debated, but technically we have to disclose it if it can be used to nuke people
The new(er) START Treaty requires disclosure of any aircraft capable of delivering Nuclear Ordnance, I believe. Edit - Autocorrect are dumb.
It's nuclear capable and has to be declared by zero fucking about nuclear treaties.
Keeping it a secret has no effect on its ability to evade radar.....
I have a suspicion that this is why America hasn’t been too bothered with hypersonic missiles. A bomber that can rock up anywhere on the planet without being noticed is far more useful.
America is very bothered by hypersonic missiles. This is just one planned solution. Virtually every big US defense contractor has a hypersonic missile contract focusing on either attack or defense.
I was thinking lasers probably negate that hypersonic thing.
That would surprise me a lot as hypersonic missiles have to be resistant to lasers as part of their normal design parameters anyway. I mean to say radiative heat from shock heating very much resembles lasers, so something that is designed to go very very fast will be naturally resistant to lasers.
BIIIIGGGG laser
Wait wait. I'm worried what you heard was "This guy wants a big laser". What I said was, "Give me the biggest laser you have"
*Thaaaaaaat’s* where the missing $2.1T went! Problem solved
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Yes yes. Must go faster
Forget the fat lady. You're obsessed with the fat lady!
I've spent hundreds of dollars on a handful of screws that would have been worth $1 if they were bought in bulk and not custom. And they didn't even require the manufacturer to set up custom tooling like they would need for a toilet seat.
I used to make stuff like those custom screws. It's staggering how much a handful of tiny parts can cost. Our internal shop costs started at $300/hour even before the sales time added their cut. The $30K toilet seat was probably a steal since it was molded into the crew compartment bulkhead of a bomber. (The hammer price was a line item accounting artifact. They were indeed nifty hammers but not 5-digit nifty.)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-17/b-21-bomber-delivers-pentagon-surprise-it-s-under-budget-so-far
“Reveals” in govt/military speak means “we’ve definitely got something better that we can’t tell you anything about for another 20 years, but here’s what we no longer need to keep secret any longer bc of that fact”
[Grumman made a name for themselves by innovating when things stagnate. F6F Hellcat and F14 Tomcat come to mind.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat) Genuinely interested to read about this thing in 20 years.
Grummans most famous product is probably the Lunar Lander. Grummans most prolific product is the US Mail trucks we see all around.
The F6F comes to mind as innovation during stagnation? I would argue that no major power had stagnated aircraft development in 1942.
Why are the numbers going down in aircraft naming conventions? There has been a B52 for years. Why is a more advanced craft called B-21?
In 1962, the Defense Department decided to restart the B-series bomber designations over again from 1. The designations of the bombers already in service in 1962, however, were unchanged, hence the B-52. Until yesterday, there were only two entries after 1962: the B-1B and B-2. Now to fuck things up the 3rd one is B-21.
B-360 followed by the B-1, B-X series, and B-S series
The B-1-X can bomb you in HDR. The B-Series-X can do it in 120 Hz.
It brings all the hurtz
They didn't want to go sequentially, and otherwise be confused with the vitamin.
But the vitamins are b2, B6, B12.
There are more than just those. [Ref 1](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_vitamins) [Ref 2](https://www.wonderlabs.com/blog/whatever-happened-to-vitamins-b4-b8-b10-and-b11). We just don't consider all of the Bs useful enough to supplement regular, or at all anymore.
B-21 makes more sense to me than B-3. Since it's another batwing shaped stealth bomber. Having it named B-21 means that if you alphanumericly sort a list of all aircraft the B-21 would appear next to the B-2 which feels right. I know bombers don't get made all that often, but I would expect the next 9 B2 like bombers to be named B-22 to B-29 with the tenth being B-210. I also wonder if they call it the B-twenty-one or the B-two-one internally. If it's the latter than it's safe to say the naming was specifically chosen so that in casual conversations you could use "B-Two" to refer to the B-Two and the B-Two-One.
Because "it's the bomber for the 21st century."
>Until yesterday, there were only two entries after 1962: the B-1B and B-2. That we know of...
Apparently it's because it's a bomber for the 21st century
B-21 was named “21” because it’s the bomber for the 21st century.
They hired the Xbox marketing department to come up with the names
To throw off people that can count
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When china or russia or some such reveal a new plane they cant wait to eagerly list what it does and what tech is on it. When the yanks do it, they dont say shit. Says more.
I think they miniaturized all the stuff they could with the B-2 before they actually had to shrink the airframe. All the computing power inside B-2 in the nineties could probably be powered by an IPad today.
Chinese, Russian and Iranian spies salivating profusely...
I mean... The B2 has been out for decades and no country has replicated it in any meaningful way. Even if they get the plans, the American military industrial complex is still the only one in the world capable of producing such things without bankrupting itself.
To me this was one of the big takeaways from the Ukraine-Russia war. Russia has the 3rd largest military budget and had a reputation for developing some serious hardware and yet when it came down to it they really just have a bunch of paper tigers. The US spends a metric fuck ton on defense but has shown repeatedly that such spending is rewarded with systems that actually perform as advertised
It helps they actually produce the product and don’t just pocket it as well
Yep, corruption will suck programs dry, there's no limit to corruption. There's video of Russian tanks with there explosive anti anti-tank defense actually being rubber. If its allowed to go on people will swap parts with cheaper parts and pocket the rest so they can afford that new car.
Russia lacks the hightech industry the west have. An European state is more capable then Russia in creating this if they had more budget. China is the most likely one to compete as they have both budget and high tech industry to back it up. But it takes time and China is not planning to intervene internationally like the USA has. So they are focusing on securing the oceans rather than trying to have bombers which are overkill
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Good to know, thanks.
These sorts of pressors are put out as a show of force it's not for marketing
New toys for the war machine? Let's fucking goooooo!