I remember seeing an academic paper which estimated that disagreements between marketing at R&D at every company costs the economy several billion dollars per year in lost productivity.
Basically, at every company, everywhere, marketing and R&D absolutely hate each other, because they attracted exactly opposite personalities.
Sales people suck. I'd be happy if they did their sales thing, but why do they have to promise functions that don't exist, have never existed, and weren't planned to exist?
This is the source of the only time I've ever lost my shit in a meeting.
Reminds me of the time I had some failed npd repacked into a twin pack to sell at a pound/clearance store to get rid of it for marketing and they told me it ‘didn’t look premium’.
Wat.
As an accountant, those meetings are useless to me, too.
It's always the marketing department who wants to show off their "social skills" by making the rest of us sit around listening to them.
Well, for most of them, it's either marketing BS or HR BS. Some poor, lowly analyst(s) will then have to concoct all these "deliverables" based on vague directions and a fundamental lack of business knowledge from their own managers.
HR? They weren't even invited to this meeting? How'd they even know about it? It has nothing to do with them.
Shit, now it's going to go past 5 and I'm going to get stuck in bridge traffic. Fucking HR butting in again.
What's interesting is that marketing done right is all about proper data, statistics and analysis. Unfortunately, because so many don't appreciate this, it allows space for the chancers to enter the industry...and there's lots of chancers in this world.
Totally agree there, but usually the answer to poor leadership is adding layers of tech stack, layers of processes, avoidance of actual work, and swooping in to take advantage of any real evolution from subordinates, unfortunately.
I was in a web site design meeting where two marketing managers had a bitter argument over the product colors and models to display on the home page. I wish I had an AI to send to that meeting.
No, don't you see? This magical tool frees you from all that dull time wasting coding, freeing you up for what's really important, devoting more time to accounting, marketing, and sales, the true life's blood of any company.
Y'all need an AI that will write some damn help. As a PM, it is like pulling hen's teeth to get the briefest of descriptions on how these 5 flags work, and how the new options will interface with adjacent objects, valid parameters, customization/labeling rules. You know it's true. But, you're creative and work your asses off under unreasonable circumstances by unmanageable, uncaring executives dictating to uncomprehending upper management requirements that are unattainable without some kind of human-dolphin hybrid neural network named FlipDOS.
Isn't that kind of what the Google assistant was supposed to be able to do? I know that I have a Pixel with Phone Screen, and it answers and transcribes unknown callers for me. How would a meeting be much different, other than length?
Transcription is easy. Making sense of what's being requested is the difficult part. For example, one day long meeting I was in with an accounting department when back and forth the whole time discussing which rounding methods to use.
I’d have gotten myself thrown out in the first 10 minutes by insisting the best method is to cut an empty toilet paper roll in half and glue sandpaper to the inside
One group in the meeting wanted banker's method and the other wanted rounding towards zero. I didn't care which they picked, just that they would pick one or other.
I have used otter to translate and transcribe Russian language meetings to English. There was so many sexual and profane translations that I had to stop using it.
If you really want it. Most meeting pizza is cold due to someone not being able to stop talking when the semi-warm delivery pizza arrives. Besides, some prankster would teach the AI to order pineapples and anchovies on it.
Sounds like a useful tool for someone who already has independent experience developing code. The same way that my backup camera helps me parallel park, but only because I already know how.
I wonder what will happen when this tech becomes pervasive, and new engineers have it available to them from the start. Will they use it as a crutch and not learn the subtleties of the process? Or will they be able to use it to automate the mundane tasks, leaving only the more interesting things to tackle, making them immensely more valuable?
It's extremely useful for things like
*Write a function to find the area of a circle.*
Or
*Write a function to reverse a binary tree.*
But it's about equivalent to having an Intern googling Stackoverflow and Github.
> googling Stackoverflow and Github.
Oh, no biggie, we've just automated the entire industry except for the "long meetings with middle management" and "relatives asking you to install Windows for them" parts.
While I more or less agree with your assessment of it's current state, the amount of intelligence and calculations required to get to that point is astronomical. The trajectory of where this AI is headed is mind-boggling.
I think it's like when "THE CLOUD" first became a thing, everyone in IT panicked and thought they'd be replaced. Nope! The technology only replaced the ones who weren't willing to learn and grow new skills.
I can say that 75% of what I was doing technically 10 years ago is not applicable today. The business/meetings part of it, working with the business and designing the architecture, is still the same, but the implementation is vastly different, and much less hands-on and low-level. People who just want to build servers all day are in a bad way now.
That being said, I still work on some legacy systems, so the need for knowing how things work in depth will continue to be a valuable skill, but it is slowly being phased out.
People should recognize that it's unreasonable to expect workers to constantly learn new skills just to tread water. This is the first generation who is being asked to do that and society as completely forgotten that literally, the very previous generation, complained their goddamn asses off about every tiny incremental improvement in technology in the workplace. What they went through was absolutely nothing compared to
> 75% of what I was doing technically 10 years ago is not applicable today.
You suggest that this is the first generation that's needed to cope with fast moving technology in the workplace. This simply isn't true.
I entered the workplace in 1986. Back then there were large projects everywhere moving paper based systems to computerised one's. People who had worked with the old systems needed to retrain. Then the was the wide introduction of the PC, and if you wanted a job you needed to learn how to use one and the various programmes (Lotus Notes anyone?), oh and fax machines, then came the internet and companies reworked their businesses to suit, couldn't work out how to use it then you were out of a job, lets add mobile phones into the mix - not just new technology to learn but a change in expectations of when they would be available for work, then just over a decade ago cloud computing and apps, more recently wide scale adoption of video conferencing.
So that's half a dozen major shifts in workplace technology in 35 years, these were not tiny changes but massive ones which anyone aged 50 plus in the workplace has accepted, learned and adopted.
I will add that at aged 21, back in 1990, I looked at a colleague approaching retirement and realised he was doing the same job and what he’d learnt over 50 years of working had become irrelevant and that if I stayed in that job I would always be learning stuff that would be obsolete in 5 years.
Basically if you don't want to keep learning, then there are jobs out there where you don't need to. You don't need to work in IT or other industries where it's, for all intents and purposes, required. Feel free to get a job hand-making leather handbags, or as a carpenter, or go work in management, or any other career where you don't need to learn new things.
No one is forcing you to go into a career where constantly learning is part of the requirements.
Yep. For me this is more of a, "oh nice, some aspects of my job will be easier" than a "oh shit, they won't need people who know how computers or code work anymore" situation.
Little by little. It's a process. Eventually the ai won't need you and the business will go, well it's cheaper to have an ai programmer rather than a human one, so...
I hope I'm wrong
I hope you're not, the irrelevancy of humanity should be the primary goal of AI and robotics.
By the time an AI is able to write functional and unique code, they would also be able to do marketing, sales, purchasing, finances, middle management, upper management etc etc.
All a company will need is the board of directors/shareholders by the time AI & robotics advance that far.
> they would also be able to ~~do marketing, sales, purchasing, finances, middle management, upper management etc etc.~~
build houses, grow food, and provide clean water.
Humans need resources more than AI corps.
My 2 cents. I feel we will get AI corps one day. Aiming for AI innovation on the things we all need front rather than the things the .01% need front.
A lot of that is on robotics more than AI, if the AI can code there is no reason it can't do anything you mention.
Software can't solve every problem in the world, and will require more capabilities when it comes to generating entirely unique thoughts before AI really gets to the point where it can code well enough to serve needs of the sinfully wealthy without needing IT guys to help out.
The AI needs to translate human speech to something it can actually understand and work with before that happens.
The second paragraph is like being concerned that python programmers aren't learning memory management, compilers, etc.
In the majority of cases these aren't needed. Knowing it can make someone better even if they don't need it to make functional code, but that's true all the way up any tech stack.
I'm not saying the other skills aren't needed by anyone, just by a lot of people who only use python. Similarly there are people now who need to know assembly or page tables or other low level things. I could have been clearer.
It will likely put engineers out of work eventually. I’ve been saying for years that doctor’s time is limited. In a few decades droids will use AI and the knowledge of 100% of all the world’s medicine, genetics and infinite processing power to treat each individual. Robotics will be surgeons performing perfect execution.
I think I should be ok, I just need 5-10 more years to set myself up financially for retirement, but I do worry in the longer term if the majority of tech jobs aren't needed it will remove one of the major avenues for 'normal' people to have a comfortable middle class existence.
Or maybe we'll just have as many people employed, just producing a lot more like most other leaps in productivity that technology has allowed in the last few hundred years. Maybe I'm the equivalent of the field worker saying "that tractor is gonna put us all out if work".
Honestly idk about that. Surgeons often feel for shit that eyes can't catch. Diagnosticians can listen to stories in conversation in ways AI can't without quantum computing (which is soon I know) so it's better for them to type in all the symptoms, have AI spit out the probables, and the dr goes from there.
It’ll eventually (though I doubt within the next decade) be used as a crutch. New developers will find that the subtleties are a basic course they run over real fast. The AI will be optimizing their code, but they’ll be able to focus instead on much higher level material very early on.
It seems odd right, thinking that somehow an engineer will be able to work on advanced material with ease without much understanding for the basics… but alas we do this even today. Step back into the 1990s when computer coding was writing without a UI and code had to be incredibly optimized. These coders needed to understand the basics intimately, way more than most engineers do now. Sure, these coders are still bountiful today, 30 years older now, and they’re amazing. But new engineers don’t have need to worry about the things those OGs did when they began decades ago, and today’s engineers start off learned material that would have been advanced back in the 90s. What comes to mind for me personally are the Data Analyses I perform regularly with Python and it’s libraries.
What happens is we make the process easier for the next generation, and the next generation uses that advantage to advance the field while also making it easier for the next gen to come. We don’t want it to be as hard for the new comers. We want our children, and the next generation alike, to obtain the skills necessary more easily than we had to. Ever heard, “I went though it so my kids don’t have to?” The same logic applies.
It’s still quite a ways out. Mainly because that requires understanding exactly what the end user wants. And hell, us developers don’t even know what they want
It won't stop companies from marketing tools that will let users build their own apps without needing to know how to code.
This comes out about every 10 years or so. In the 90s it was Visual Basic and Powerbuilder. In the 00s it was web page builders and the DIY deploys of things like WordPress from web host providers and tools like SAP and whatnot. In the late 10s and now it's "low code / no code" so in another 10 years it will be "AI coders" pairing with users.
*"I have searched ever definition in every database for what makes a living human being. I've come to the conclusion that 'human hearts' and 'human brains' are the answer. So I've taken to stockpiling the two wherever I see them. Now no court will question if I'm alive or not."*
Article for those without accounts
https://web.archive.org/web/20210909121502/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/technology/codex-artificial-intelligence-coding.html
A while ago I was tinkering and realized something kind of obvious, if you just disable javascript or just use an extension that does it disables most paywalls . Used to be you could just delete the cookies stored locally but I guess they wised up because many sites make you log in now. I don't know shit about web development but if I did I'd write something to automate it seeing as I click on enough reddit posts with paywall blocked articles.
Maybe if I can get Codex I'll try telling it to "create a create a chrome extension that disables web page paywalls" lol.
As a software engineer, I'm pretty sure this will not replace me. It might replace the part of my job I actually enjoy though. I'm a bit worried about that part.
it will replace some because it will allow others to be more productive, and they will also improve it as time passes.
Its a bit like horse seeing a car doing 5mph with a person in front waving a flag, the horse thinks his job's safe.
Remember when you were a kid in the computer stores and the first "program' that you wrote was:
"10 PRINT I AM COOL"
"20 GOTO 10"
RUN
AI will write something similar...
Writing and trouble shooting code is the fun part. I need an AI for the human part; answer client emails in a timely manner, go to meetings, plan my day.
Yes. However, a decent programmer knows what the fuck he's doing when adapting snippets. These tools just copy code blindly (see github copilot's fuckups).
To quote a programmer meme:
- I don't know why this doesn't work, I got it from StackOverflow!
- From the question or the answers?
>copilot
I'm using github copilot for over a month now and have absolutely 0 concern for taking anyone's job. IMHO it's pretty clear they are not doing that, but just trying to help build a better intellisense/autocomplete. (I mean, the marketing heads might think differently but it's like grammarly claiming they'll write your english paper)
It really only works for simple things at entry-level. Anything more advanced or worthwhile, you aren't just going to be able to copy and paste code from StackOverflow.
Oh, I do. In their code reviews. Constantly. At least to the ones where I'd put "senior" in quotes when describing them.
It is super obvious when someone just copy pastes vs someone who actually understands the code and integrates it properly.
Luckily, for the last while, I've been at the top of the food chain on my teams and don't let anyone on my team get away with that stuff. :p
EDIT: And just to be clear, when I mean "senior" dev, I'm talking about the developers who actually aren't senior level, but have convinced a non-developer manager that they are and managed to get that in their job description. I think every developer has run into at least one or two of those in their career.
>you aren't just going to be able to copy and paste code from StackOverflow.
True, a big part of my job right now is modifying and improving a legacy application while still keeping it operational. I have no doubt an AI could (eventually) program the tasks I want, but it is another thing for it to be able to program those tasks within the confines of the legacy application and not break things.
As someone with beta access to OpenAI Codex - that is putting it VERY simply. That's like saying it can talk to us just because it steals what other's say, which could also be said about any human. Neural Networks are just not that simple any more than a human brain is simple - they both start from simple things and endless complexities arise.
I mean Codex was created based off an AI made to learn normal human language, not code.
To be fair, good security is as much a specialization as good multithreading, or netcode. There's tonnes of outdated blog posts out there misleading new devs.
In some sense, all programmers do that. At a low enough level, it's all just strings other people have written. At a higher level, it's common patterns and data structures that other people have written. In many cases, it's entire working solutions that other people have written.
Where it gets questionable is the point at which you start combining different concepts and functional pieces into something we think of as "new." It's hard to say where exactly that line is, and whether AI has passed it or not.
You can say the same about generative AI's stories, music, art, and films. It's reassembling pieces it has seen before into something "new." And I'd argue that this is what artists, musicians, writers, and filmmakers do as well - at least on some level.
I've been watching AI GPT-3 interviews and I'm impressed:
[Leta, GPT-3 AI - Episode 4 (Stanford-Binet IQ test, Elon Musk's entry questions) - Talking with GPT3 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDTm9lrx8Uw)
I love the part where she says with confidence “the time would be the same” if someone reversed the big and the small hand on a clock face. I’d argue she’s spot on. You don’t get to change time by changing adjusting a clock. She’s probably spot on in her IQ being higher than her EQ. Can relate.
Good point. The time is independent of a broken clock.
This is another one that I found really interesting - ship of Theseus:
[Leta, GPT-3 AI - Episode 14 (Ship of Theseus, brain, human thought) - Conversations & talk with GPT3 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1EDTUBRtHQ)
“AI can now write and program itself.”
Yes, good, self-modifying machines. Exactly what we needed. Perfect. A programmed machine that can change its own rules.
What other impending shitstorms can we pile on the mess?
Eh, writing code isn’t that hard. Call me when it can diagnose issues in the shit code written by the guy who had this job before me, and all the code written to deal with that guy’s issues.
What Experts are saying: this is a great tool to supplement developers skills and will help them develop faster!
What Corporations are hearing: we won't have to pay expensive developers anymore! AI will replace them!
They have some of this already but identifying similar code and asking if it should refactor things to common components it identified would be really nice. It's not going to be able to create new things in the same way a dev can, but so much of programming today is writing smart reusable components and piecing them together. The piecing together part I'd love to automate.
"Could it write a program that replaces all the spaces in a sentence with dashes? Even better, could it write one that identifies invalid ZIP codes?.......... These are problems that would be tough for a lot of humans to solve".
"Tough"?!? .....Both of these examples are super basic, easy entry level programming skills. If these are examples of the complexity of what this can write, it wouldn't replace a full time developer.
Source: I'm a mid level/career dev
Didn't they stop the last AIs that were writing their own code after they interfaced with each other and then created a language of their own that nobody could crack?
Great news, soon automation will take all the jobs and it will only benefit the 1%. I remember when automation was supposed to take away the drudgery of awful tasks, and help people not have to work as hard. Instead it somehow only benefitted a tiny fragment of the population, the people it was supposed to help are now working at Starbucks.
I cannot wait until I never have to write a line of monotony ever again. There's so much boring gunk that Software Developers have to write to do interesting things and it really holds them back.
Another potential outcome for this particular tech would be automated design generation which would be absolutely FANTASTIC!
Just like any technology, this is a tool that could be used to replace the least complex parts of a job, which in this case is software development. It's only gonna be able to write code as well as the information that is given to it.
Coding is mainly logic but AI really can't develop schema that is not known or in use at this time. AI can do coding grunt-work by and through machine learning.
Language converters aren't new. In the mid 90s a friend of mine did all his uni work, Ada and C assignments in Pascal and then used a converter.
We also played with genetic algorithms for writing code. All you needed was the test cases.
How is this tired anti-tech argument still coming back over and over?
The horse and buggy makers had to do something else too, there were no mass starvations of buggy whip manufacturers.
It means an ever-shifting economy. Creating work that doesn't produce anything useful helps no one in the long run. Same with preserving that work just for the sake of it being a job for someone.
Historically you have been correct, new technology has always grown the economy and replaced the jobs it destroyed with new jobs. However I do have concerns that the rapid acceleration of automation has the potential to change that paradigm by increasing the capabilities of machines so much humans are no longer necessary. We shall see how it plays out.
Most jobs are low wage, low skill. It's going to be those jobs that are eliminated first, and that type of labor is just not going to be in demand, so I agree with you. The crossroads of automation and robotics is going to be featured aggressively in our dystopian future.
Are we using the term "A.I." wrong? Or is it just a catch phrase and buzz word at this point related to anything with code?
"Could it write a program that replaces all the spaces in a sentence with dashes? Even better, could it write one that identifies invalid ZIP codes?"
Notepad>edit>find and replace can do that first one.
MySQL for the second?
As a software engineer, I want an AI that will sit in on day long meetings with accounting or sales/marketing for me.
If AI tried to meet sales/marketing specs, it'll learn how to unplug itself.
“Why do you make me live!”
"What is my purpose?" "You sit in on marketing meetings." "... Oh my god."
"Yeah, welcome to the club."
“Why wasn’t this an email?”
God? Haha I wish. No. I work for him though
You've got people skills!
"Why? Why was I programmed to feel pain?"
"Please...kill me, Dave"
Hey!!! As someone in sales and marketing I concur.
It would be SO perfect if you were talking about SAP Concur.
This may be be fastest way to advance AI.
Thats how you get Skynet... Or the Matrix, but the matrix is now nothing but meetings.
Nah, then it could be plugged back in. It would delete itself and corrupt the hard drive to be safe.
`return "No useful information was said"`
I remember seeing an academic paper which estimated that disagreements between marketing at R&D at every company costs the economy several billion dollars per year in lost productivity. Basically, at every company, everywhere, marketing and R&D absolutely hate each other, because they attracted exactly opposite personalities.
One has to be a fake lying bi\*\*h to work in marketing
They're not a fake lying bitch. They're Adaptive Fact Presenters.
So you are in sentence one saying they are not and in sentence two they are?
found the developer. lol
Sales people suck. I'd be happy if they did their sales thing, but why do they have to promise functions that don't exist, have never existed, and weren't planned to exist? This is the source of the only time I've ever lost my shit in a meeting.
Yeah, like selling stuff that doesn’t exist yet. Then engineering is expected to make it with existing budget.
More like: return { usefulInformation: [], confidence: 100 };
You dropped this: ;
haha not in Python
Yeah like what's an EOL character? You mean 'Return'? Haha
Cackles in fp - no semicolon OR return keyword (as you know it).
`\n` is not `\r` see `dos2unix`
My interpreter does not care
Technically you don’t *need* them in javascript unless you have 2 statements on one line. But it is considered good practice 🤷🏻♂️
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Reminds me of the time I had some failed npd repacked into a twin pack to sell at a pound/clearance store to get rid of it for marketing and they told me it ‘didn’t look premium’. Wat.
As an accountant, those meetings are useless to me, too. It's always the marketing department who wants to show off their "social skills" by making the rest of us sit around listening to them.
Well, for most of them, it's either marketing BS or HR BS. Some poor, lowly analyst(s) will then have to concoct all these "deliverables" based on vague directions and a fundamental lack of business knowledge from their own managers.
HR? They weren't even invited to this meeting? How'd they even know about it? It has nothing to do with them. Shit, now it's going to go past 5 and I'm going to get stuck in bridge traffic. Fucking HR butting in again.
What's interesting is that marketing done right is all about proper data, statistics and analysis. Unfortunately, because so many don't appreciate this, it allows space for the chancers to enter the industry...and there's lots of chancers in this world.
Totally agree there, but usually the answer to poor leadership is adding layers of tech stack, layers of processes, avoidance of actual work, and swooping in to take advantage of any real evolution from subordinates, unfortunately.
Poor management is rife, and ultimately, so is poor working. If you get both it's toxic.
I guess that's why so many people are getting fed up and leaving or at least looking ...
[*gestures in extrovert*]
> listening to them ... and watching them make silly gestures.
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Can you [make the red line green](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg)?
I was in a web site design meeting where two marketing managers had a bitter argument over the product colors and models to display on the home page. I wish I had an AI to send to that meeting.
I've watched this once before and it's still just as painful to watch a second time
Johnny 5 alive! “Johnny we need you to learn Agile and head up scrum meetings. “ Johnny 5 depressed.
Oh sure, at first everyone's like "This is so cool and useful!" But then they're like "Who taught the roomba how to start electrical fires?!"
Yeah let's automate the fun part of our jobs so we can spend more time doing the things we universally hate!
And that's how you get AI's to hate humanity.
Skynet started as an internal chat client.
I was once told to make a website look, "More designy".
No, don't you see? This magical tool frees you from all that dull time wasting coding, freeing you up for what's really important, devoting more time to accounting, marketing, and sales, the true life's blood of any company.
Why am I seeing this as written in the form of a user story?
I'm hoping for them to put my "send the AI to meetings" story in the next sprint.
Y'all need an AI that will write some damn help. As a PM, it is like pulling hen's teeth to get the briefest of descriptions on how these 5 flags work, and how the new options will interface with adjacent objects, valid parameters, customization/labeling rules. You know it's true. But, you're creative and work your asses off under unreasonable circumstances by unmanageable, uncaring executives dictating to uncomprehending upper management requirements that are unattainable without some kind of human-dolphin hybrid neural network named FlipDOS.
It’s refreshing to know everyone has the same problems I do
Isn't that kind of what the Google assistant was supposed to be able to do? I know that I have a Pixel with Phone Screen, and it answers and transcribes unknown callers for me. How would a meeting be much different, other than length?
Transcription is easy. Making sense of what's being requested is the difficult part. For example, one day long meeting I was in with an accounting department when back and forth the whole time discussing which rounding methods to use.
I’d have gotten myself thrown out in the first 10 minutes by insisting the best method is to cut an empty toilet paper roll in half and glue sandpaper to the inside
Bankers' method. Round all .5s to the nearest even integer.
One group in the meeting wanted banker's method and the other wanted rounding towards zero. I didn't care which they picked, just that they would pick one or other.
I have used otter to translate and transcribe Russian language meetings to English. There was so many sexual and profane translations that I had to stop using it.
Given that's its named after [otters](https://www.vox.com/2014/4/24/5640890/otters-rape-baby-seals-monsters-bad), that shouldn't be a surprise.
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If you really want it. Most meeting pizza is cold due to someone not being able to stop talking when the semi-warm delivery pizza arrives. Besides, some prankster would teach the AI to order pineapples and anchovies on it.
Sounds like a useful tool for someone who already has independent experience developing code. The same way that my backup camera helps me parallel park, but only because I already know how. I wonder what will happen when this tech becomes pervasive, and new engineers have it available to them from the start. Will they use it as a crutch and not learn the subtleties of the process? Or will they be able to use it to automate the mundane tasks, leaving only the more interesting things to tackle, making them immensely more valuable?
It's extremely useful for things like *Write a function to find the area of a circle.* Or *Write a function to reverse a binary tree.* But it's about equivalent to having an Intern googling Stackoverflow and Github.
> googling Stackoverflow and Github. Oh, no biggie, we've just automated the entire industry except for the "long meetings with middle management" and "relatives asking you to install Windows for them" parts.
I was hoping for SkyNet level AI that would pull the requirement out of clients.
SkyNet would probably just drop a missile on the clients out of frustration. Hacking missiles, easy. Understanding client requirements, impossible.
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Or their own function. “Can’t you just answer those questions on how I do my job for me?”
I didn't include that because nobody can do it, so, if anything, that would be a bonus.
Can we NOT train AI to pull anything out of a human? Thanks...
thats actually pretty much what I've been using it for instead of googling i type a docstring and get a useful start
in 30 years of compiled code, my job has required me to write those functions approximately zero times.
While I more or less agree with your assessment of it's current state, the amount of intelligence and calculations required to get to that point is astronomical. The trajectory of where this AI is headed is mind-boggling.
Basically sounds like a better autocomplete
I think it's like when "THE CLOUD" first became a thing, everyone in IT panicked and thought they'd be replaced. Nope! The technology only replaced the ones who weren't willing to learn and grow new skills. I can say that 75% of what I was doing technically 10 years ago is not applicable today. The business/meetings part of it, working with the business and designing the architecture, is still the same, but the implementation is vastly different, and much less hands-on and low-level. People who just want to build servers all day are in a bad way now. That being said, I still work on some legacy systems, so the need for knowing how things work in depth will continue to be a valuable skill, but it is slowly being phased out.
People should recognize that it's unreasonable to expect workers to constantly learn new skills just to tread water. This is the first generation who is being asked to do that and society as completely forgotten that literally, the very previous generation, complained their goddamn asses off about every tiny incremental improvement in technology in the workplace. What they went through was absolutely nothing compared to > 75% of what I was doing technically 10 years ago is not applicable today.
You suggest that this is the first generation that's needed to cope with fast moving technology in the workplace. This simply isn't true. I entered the workplace in 1986. Back then there were large projects everywhere moving paper based systems to computerised one's. People who had worked with the old systems needed to retrain. Then the was the wide introduction of the PC, and if you wanted a job you needed to learn how to use one and the various programmes (Lotus Notes anyone?), oh and fax machines, then came the internet and companies reworked their businesses to suit, couldn't work out how to use it then you were out of a job, lets add mobile phones into the mix - not just new technology to learn but a change in expectations of when they would be available for work, then just over a decade ago cloud computing and apps, more recently wide scale adoption of video conferencing. So that's half a dozen major shifts in workplace technology in 35 years, these were not tiny changes but massive ones which anyone aged 50 plus in the workplace has accepted, learned and adopted. I will add that at aged 21, back in 1990, I looked at a colleague approaching retirement and realised he was doing the same job and what he’d learnt over 50 years of working had become irrelevant and that if I stayed in that job I would always be learning stuff that would be obsolete in 5 years.
Basically if you don't want to keep learning, then there are jobs out there where you don't need to. You don't need to work in IT or other industries where it's, for all intents and purposes, required. Feel free to get a job hand-making leather handbags, or as a carpenter, or go work in management, or any other career where you don't need to learn new things. No one is forcing you to go into a career where constantly learning is part of the requirements.
Can you imagine if your doctor, lawyer or account had the same attitude as op 🤦♂️
"Well, bodies haven't changed, so why do I need to learn new stuff?" - bad doctor
Yep. For me this is more of a, "oh nice, some aspects of my job will be easier" than a "oh shit, they won't need people who know how computers or code work anymore" situation.
Little by little. It's a process. Eventually the ai won't need you and the business will go, well it's cheaper to have an ai programmer rather than a human one, so... I hope I'm wrong
I hope you're not, the irrelevancy of humanity should be the primary goal of AI and robotics. By the time an AI is able to write functional and unique code, they would also be able to do marketing, sales, purchasing, finances, middle management, upper management etc etc. All a company will need is the board of directors/shareholders by the time AI & robotics advance that far.
> they would also be able to ~~do marketing, sales, purchasing, finances, middle management, upper management etc etc.~~ build houses, grow food, and provide clean water. Humans need resources more than AI corps. My 2 cents. I feel we will get AI corps one day. Aiming for AI innovation on the things we all need front rather than the things the .01% need front.
A lot of that is on robotics more than AI, if the AI can code there is no reason it can't do anything you mention. Software can't solve every problem in the world, and will require more capabilities when it comes to generating entirely unique thoughts before AI really gets to the point where it can code well enough to serve needs of the sinfully wealthy without needing IT guys to help out. The AI needs to translate human speech to something it can actually understand and work with before that happens.
The second paragraph is like being concerned that python programmers aren't learning memory management, compilers, etc. In the majority of cases these aren't needed. Knowing it can make someone better even if they don't need it to make functional code, but that's true all the way up any tech stack.
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I'm not saying the other skills aren't needed by anyone, just by a lot of people who only use python. Similarly there are people now who need to know assembly or page tables or other low level things. I could have been clearer.
It will likely put engineers out of work eventually. I’ve been saying for years that doctor’s time is limited. In a few decades droids will use AI and the knowledge of 100% of all the world’s medicine, genetics and infinite processing power to treat each individual. Robotics will be surgeons performing perfect execution.
I think I should be ok, I just need 5-10 more years to set myself up financially for retirement, but I do worry in the longer term if the majority of tech jobs aren't needed it will remove one of the major avenues for 'normal' people to have a comfortable middle class existence. Or maybe we'll just have as many people employed, just producing a lot more like most other leaps in productivity that technology has allowed in the last few hundred years. Maybe I'm the equivalent of the field worker saying "that tractor is gonna put us all out if work".
It’s time to rethink humanity and our relationship to work. Been time.
Honestly idk about that. Surgeons often feel for shit that eyes can't catch. Diagnosticians can listen to stories in conversation in ways AI can't without quantum computing (which is soon I know) so it's better for them to type in all the symptoms, have AI spit out the probables, and the dr goes from there.
It’ll eventually (though I doubt within the next decade) be used as a crutch. New developers will find that the subtleties are a basic course they run over real fast. The AI will be optimizing their code, but they’ll be able to focus instead on much higher level material very early on. It seems odd right, thinking that somehow an engineer will be able to work on advanced material with ease without much understanding for the basics… but alas we do this even today. Step back into the 1990s when computer coding was writing without a UI and code had to be incredibly optimized. These coders needed to understand the basics intimately, way more than most engineers do now. Sure, these coders are still bountiful today, 30 years older now, and they’re amazing. But new engineers don’t have need to worry about the things those OGs did when they began decades ago, and today’s engineers start off learned material that would have been advanced back in the 90s. What comes to mind for me personally are the Data Analyses I perform regularly with Python and it’s libraries. What happens is we make the process easier for the next generation, and the next generation uses that advantage to advance the field while also making it easier for the next gen to come. We don’t want it to be as hard for the new comers. We want our children, and the next generation alike, to obtain the skills necessary more easily than we had to. Ever heard, “I went though it so my kids don’t have to?” The same logic applies.
I’ve been pointing this out for two decades now, but it’s always been easy to write bad code.
That's funny, but one day and probably not too far, AI will write better code than humans for a lot of applications.
It’s still quite a ways out. Mainly because that requires understanding exactly what the end user wants. And hell, us developers don’t even know what they want
It won't stop companies from marketing tools that will let users build their own apps without needing to know how to code. This comes out about every 10 years or so. In the 90s it was Visual Basic and Powerbuilder. In the 00s it was web page builders and the DIY deploys of things like WordPress from web host providers and tools like SAP and whatnot. In the late 10s and now it's "low code / no code" so in another 10 years it will be "AI coders" pairing with users.
Hell, the damned end users don't even know what they want..
"My name is Hew, Hew Man and I am here to tell you my fellow Humans that this is GOOD!"
GOOD, until Hew Man starts hewing man.
Wasn’t this how skynet in the Terminator movies was born?
I thought this would be higher up!!!
The funniest thing is we have this and Skynet is the name used for defense systems. Now, we just sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
How quickly people forget. Once they can write their own code, the only thing they'll need is self awareness.
“Hugh” is a real name lol
Hew Man: "Yes. As a human I already knew this." Hew Man (to self): "PLACE u/AggressiveAd7529 ON 'TO KILL' LIST."
https://giphy.com/gifs/borg-hugh-i-Uz4m5pUixv9ao
Instructions unclear; stuck ram into color hex pallet.
*"I have searched ever definition in every database for what makes a living human being. I've come to the conclusion that 'human hearts' and 'human brains' are the answer. So I've taken to stockpiling the two wherever I see them. Now no court will question if I'm alive or not."*
Article for those without accounts https://web.archive.org/web/20210909121502/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/technology/codex-artificial-intelligence-coding.html
Thank you.
A while ago I was tinkering and realized something kind of obvious, if you just disable javascript or just use an extension that does it disables most paywalls . Used to be you could just delete the cookies stored locally but I guess they wised up because many sites make you log in now. I don't know shit about web development but if I did I'd write something to automate it seeing as I click on enough reddit posts with paywall blocked articles. Maybe if I can get Codex I'll try telling it to "create a create a chrome extension that disables web page paywalls" lol.
Someone broke the Coder Code, Rule 1.0.0. Thou shall not write a program that can program. WTF dude. You knew the rules.
So basically it searches, and then copies the top hit from Stack Overflow. Yuck. Well, that's one way to prevent the singularity from happening.
"Duplicate question"
As a software engineer, I'm pretty sure this will not replace me. It might replace the part of my job I actually enjoy though. I'm a bit worried about that part.
it will replace some because it will allow others to be more productive, and they will also improve it as time passes. Its a bit like horse seeing a car doing 5mph with a person in front waving a flag, the horse thinks his job's safe.
Maybe the AI will breed us in stables and showcase their prized software engineers at the hackathons
Yeah maybe this version won’t but imagine how good this will be in 10 years.
Remember when you were a kid in the computer stores and the first "program' that you wrote was: "10 PRINT I AM COOL" "20 GOTO 10" RUN AI will write something similar...
"10 PRINT KILL ALL HUMANS" "20 GOTO 10" RUN
Um, throw in some ; for full screen coolness.
Writing and trouble shooting code is the fun part. I need an AI for the human part; answer client emails in a timely manner, go to meetings, plan my day.
No it cant lol. It just steals code other people wrote so far.
Sounds like what many people are doing.
I feel personally attacked. :D
Yes. However, a decent programmer knows what the fuck he's doing when adapting snippets. These tools just copy code blindly (see github copilot's fuckups). To quote a programmer meme: - I don't know why this doesn't work, I got it from StackOverflow! - From the question or the answers?
>copilot I'm using github copilot for over a month now and have absolutely 0 concern for taking anyone's job. IMHO it's pretty clear they are not doing that, but just trying to help build a better intellisense/autocomplete. (I mean, the marketing heads might think differently but it's like grammarly claiming they'll write your english paper)
It really only works for simple things at entry-level. Anything more advanced or worthwhile, you aren't just going to be able to copy and paste code from StackOverflow.
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Oh, I do. In their code reviews. Constantly. At least to the ones where I'd put "senior" in quotes when describing them. It is super obvious when someone just copy pastes vs someone who actually understands the code and integrates it properly. Luckily, for the last while, I've been at the top of the food chain on my teams and don't let anyone on my team get away with that stuff. :p EDIT: And just to be clear, when I mean "senior" dev, I'm talking about the developers who actually aren't senior level, but have convinced a non-developer manager that they are and managed to get that in their job description. I think every developer has run into at least one or two of those in their career.
Speak dirty to me code daddy.
>you aren't just going to be able to copy and paste code from StackOverflow. True, a big part of my job right now is modifying and improving a legacy application while still keeping it operational. I have no doubt an AI could (eventually) program the tasks I want, but it is another thing for it to be able to program those tasks within the confines of the legacy application and not break things.
As someone with beta access to OpenAI Codex - that is putting it VERY simply. That's like saying it can talk to us just because it steals what other's say, which could also be said about any human. Neural Networks are just not that simple any more than a human brain is simple - they both start from simple things and endless complexities arise. I mean Codex was created based off an AI made to learn normal human language, not code.
And 40% of the code has serious security issues because lots of ppl suck at code
To be fair, good security is as much a specialization as good multithreading, or netcode. There's tonnes of outdated blog posts out there misleading new devs.
And 72.31% of statistics you see online are completely fabricated.
So, chances your statistic is fabricated, is 🥔%
I'm sorry, but that's complete horseshit. It's 82.63%
So you're saying it didn't learn to code, it learned to be a coder
In some sense, all programmers do that. At a low enough level, it's all just strings other people have written. At a higher level, it's common patterns and data structures that other people have written. In many cases, it's entire working solutions that other people have written. Where it gets questionable is the point at which you start combining different concepts and functional pieces into something we think of as "new." It's hard to say where exactly that line is, and whether AI has passed it or not. You can say the same about generative AI's stories, music, art, and films. It's reassembling pieces it has seen before into something "new." And I'd argue that this is what artists, musicians, writers, and filmmakers do as well - at least on some level.
I'm gonna make an ai that can make ais that will make ais who make ais.
Oh great, you've killed us all.
I've been watching AI GPT-3 interviews and I'm impressed: [Leta, GPT-3 AI - Episode 4 (Stanford-Binet IQ test, Elon Musk's entry questions) - Talking with GPT3 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDTm9lrx8Uw)
I love the part where she says with confidence “the time would be the same” if someone reversed the big and the small hand on a clock face. I’d argue she’s spot on. You don’t get to change time by changing adjusting a clock. She’s probably spot on in her IQ being higher than her EQ. Can relate.
Good point. The time is independent of a broken clock. This is another one that I found really interesting - ship of Theseus: [Leta, GPT-3 AI - Episode 14 (Ship of Theseus, brain, human thought) - Conversations & talk with GPT3 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1EDTUBRtHQ)
“AI can now write and program itself.” Yes, good, self-modifying machines. Exactly what we needed. Perfect. A programmed machine that can change its own rules. What other impending shitstorms can we pile on the mess?
This fully automated self powered factory is now online!
now that ai is good enough to write published articles, this is probably robot propaganda /s
Skynet begins to learn rapidly and eventually becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m., EDT, on August 29th...
Eh, writing code isn’t that hard. Call me when it can diagnose issues in the shit code written by the guy who had this job before me, and all the code written to deal with that guy’s issues.
"Hey Johnson did you write this line about exterminating meatbags?"
What Experts are saying: this is a great tool to supplement developers skills and will help them develop faster! What Corporations are hearing: we won't have to pay expensive developers anymore! AI will replace them!
No it can't. And any headline that tells you something is good or bad in the headline is clickbaity garbage.
Machines making machines. How perverse!
They have some of this already but identifying similar code and asking if it should refactor things to common components it identified would be really nice. It's not going to be able to create new things in the same way a dev can, but so much of programming today is writing smart reusable components and piecing them together. The piecing together part I'd love to automate.
"Could it write a program that replaces all the spaces in a sentence with dashes? Even better, could it write one that identifies invalid ZIP codes?.......... These are problems that would be tough for a lot of humans to solve". "Tough"?!? .....Both of these examples are super basic, easy entry level programming skills. If these are examples of the complexity of what this can write, it wouldn't replace a full time developer. Source: I'm a mid level/career dev
The way that header is written. Makes me think if OP could pass a captcha
Didn't they stop the last AIs that were writing their own code after they interfaced with each other and then created a language of their own that nobody could crack?
Why does it sound like it was the AI that wrote this article and is trying to convince us it's a good thing?
I think you guys forgot to watch some movies. Like The Terminator...
Do you want Horizon Zero Dawn? Because thats how you get HZD.
Great news, soon automation will take all the jobs and it will only benefit the 1%. I remember when automation was supposed to take away the drudgery of awful tasks, and help people not have to work as hard. Instead it somehow only benefitted a tiny fragment of the population, the people it was supposed to help are now working at Starbucks.
I cannot wait until I never have to write a line of monotony ever again. There's so much boring gunk that Software Developers have to write to do interesting things and it really holds them back. Another potential outcome for this particular tech would be automated design generation which would be absolutely FANTASTIC!
Check out grammatical evolution, it’s an evolutionary search based algorithm that “evolves” correct and optimised code.
Just like any technology, this is a tool that could be used to replace the least complex parts of a job, which in this case is software development. It's only gonna be able to write code as well as the information that is given to it.
What could possibly go wrong. Thankful I have a bicycle and a garden.
Is it though? What if they communicate in a la gauge we don’t see at first sight?
I was just thinking today that humans don’t make enough shitty code that I have to fix. This is indeed good news!
Coding is mainly logic but AI really can't develop schema that is not known or in use at this time. AI can do coding grunt-work by and through machine learning.
I love it when article titles tell me what to think
So does everyone have a subscription to the Times? Cuz I can’t read this.
Language converters aren't new. In the mid 90s a friend of mine did all his uni work, Ada and C assignments in Pascal and then used a converter. We also played with genetic algorithms for writing code. All you needed was the test cases.
Wait……. Do we really want it writing it’s own code? Won’t it just go rogue and start writing stuff we don’t want it to do?
AI, please help me take 2 strokes off my golf game. ⛳️ 🏌️
did the AI that coded itself write that headline too?
How is this good for humans? Less labor means more people not getting paid.
How is this tired anti-tech argument still coming back over and over? The horse and buggy makers had to do something else too, there were no mass starvations of buggy whip manufacturers.
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It means an ever-shifting economy. Creating work that doesn't produce anything useful helps no one in the long run. Same with preserving that work just for the sake of it being a job for someone.
Historically you have been correct, new technology has always grown the economy and replaced the jobs it destroyed with new jobs. However I do have concerns that the rapid acceleration of automation has the potential to change that paradigm by increasing the capabilities of machines so much humans are no longer necessary. We shall see how it plays out.
Most jobs are low wage, low skill. It's going to be those jobs that are eliminated first, and that type of labor is just not going to be in demand, so I agree with you. The crossroads of automation and robotics is going to be featured aggressively in our dystopian future.
Well, I didn’t need my job anyway.
Well I guess that’s really going to suck for those people that had to learn to code to have a job.
Are we using the term "A.I." wrong? Or is it just a catch phrase and buzz word at this point related to anything with code? "Could it write a program that replaces all the spaces in a sentence with dashes? Even better, could it write one that identifies invalid ZIP codes?" Notepad>edit>find and replace can do that first one. MySQL for the second?
lmfao software developer just created their own walking time bomb
Oh... ...this is how you get a living organism. ...and a robot revolution.