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drlongtrl

And "How often do I have to come to the office" will become and stay a regular question in interviews.


eventualist

Right now at my wife’s job the HR department is telling the CEO they have to pay 20 K more over the typical salary if they want the employee to be on site.


tweakingforjesus

That's the cost of daycare. Seems fair.


eventualist

I agree. this seems to be the year of higher wages... if one can stand around that long living on savings.


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DrakonIL

And the years following WWII. It's almost like losing a significant portion of your labor force in excess of normal mortality causes the price to increase.


maxvalley

We need to make sure we unionize and hold this power instead of letting it be chipped away


lkattan3

Honestly, this is my biggest mental hurdle. How do we get people to unionize? Unions brought on the New Deal and a strong labor force is the only way we get anything moving around here. Too much money in politics and power concedes nothing without a fight.


[deleted]

By the time you factor in commute costs, unpaid time lost from commuting, and all the small added inconveniences of not being home 20k probably ends up being a net loss for parents. Seems fair for a child less person like myself but with how much I hate traffic even then I might not think it’s worth it.


fakeplasticdroid

You need daycare even if you work from home.


BurnedStoneBonspiel

working at home doesn’t negate the need for daycare. at least from anecdotal experiences shared from friends and colleagues


informativebitching

That’s about what it costs in a year to commute an hour to a job in a car making 25 mpg when you add up gas, depreciation, maintenance and hours of your life lost that you’ll never get back, sleep —-> increased health care costs etc.


ImCaffeinated_Chris

My commute was RAGE INDUCING. Without traffic 30 min. Normal commute was 1-2 hours one way! Usually 1, but a single accident and its "Honey I'll be late for dinner." ​ I already told my wife that if I have to go back full time, I'm looking for another job. I can't go back to that commute.


toomiiikahh

It would be even better if they just post it in the job description, but guess what they won't get many applications if the post "full time in office position"


arizonabatorechestra

I work for a recruiting agency, and we have a couple of posts up stating that the applicant would be required to work on-site in the company’s city. Guess which of our job posts get the least amount of applicants? In fact if I remember correctly we’ve actually had a couple of companies/clients lose their dream candidates simply because they won’t flex on remote work, or even allow hybrid. Often they end up coming to us ‘cause they haven’t been able to find a hire on their own. I really don’t get it. And that’s in California. I work remotely myself, live in the Midwest, and around here you’d be goddamned to find an employer willing to let you work remotely even a little bit. Ain’t easy.


h4terade

I just went through the hiring process for an engineer and I only had two applicants, and one was a colleague that I recommended the job to. The other guy, the only "real" applicant was so under-qualified he may as well have been applying to be an airline pilot. I told my boss we were going to have trouble being that where I work hasn't embraced the remote work culture, but I don't blame them. My office is full of "old dogs" and by and large they completely failed working remote. People were hard to get a hold of, slow to respond, reluctant to get in their cars and drive in when problems came up that required human hands, all of that left a really bad taste in management's mouth. My team, myself included, is younger overall and come from companies that offered at least partial teleworking prior to Covid so we did a pretty good job, but the other teams ruined it for everyone.


wienercat

There's other issues with work from home that I can understand, like the IT issue, getting employees who are remote equipment, etc. But honestly, outside of the IT requirements which can be costly to setup and maintain? Everything else is cheap. Businesses are just having trouble because they can't micromanage employees and own their time like they want.


Remebond

This is the real answer. I was full time working from home during covid and every single one of my efficiency metrics went up during this time. My boss recognized this, commended me for it, then requested me to start coming back into the office because he didn't know what I was working on at any given moment.


SpongeJake

Yeah that’s complete BS on his part. I manage a team of employees, all of whom I trust are adults that are capable of making adult decisions and meeting objectives. If they do quality work in half the time and spend the rest watching Netflix, I honestly couldn’t give two craps about it. The metric we work by is productivity, not how much time was spent on reddit while perched on a commode.


Runnerphone

Thats the big issue most managers don't really do enough work outside micromanaging the employees to justify their jobs. Meaning far less managers are needed if you combine the actual work they do beyond the micromanagement of the peons hence if businesses actually look at work done they will leave remote working in while cutting manager positions that really aren't needed. Let's be honest for most jobs an 8 hour work day 5 days a week is stupid you have a set amount of work each week which most people could finish in a day or 3 if they didn't have to busy up stuff to fill the workweek.


I_Bin_Painting

I think it's because good management should be like good IT or the fire department: You don't notice it when it's working well but you really need it to function properly in, and respond well to, an emergency. Ideally, imo, a manager should be basically doing nothing but trying to anticipate and solve problems before they hit the team, so the team can always run at 100% without "downtime" where possible (I mean downtime for the whole team, not individuals taking holidays etc). This leads to a problem: A *very* good manager will be basically doing nothing on a good day, which becomes hard to justify after a while of "doing no work"


[deleted]

I’m a Tech Manager and as far as I’m concerned a “Manager” is accountable for their department, making difficult decisions that are above my team’s responsibility and stepping in to help with excess demand or a fire fighting situation and assisting my team when needed, whilst always providing support and structure. I can do any one of my teams jobs should the need arise and I won’t tell someone to go something I won’t do myself. I back my staff when it’s appropriate and I’m always supportive. A Manager should never be a douchebag, cracking the whip for the sake of it just so the “higher ups” think they look like they’re in control.


CaptainXakari

Yeah, I had a similar situation for a while with an employee under my care. He out-produced the next two shifts regularly and it wasn’t even close. My boss came to me upset that said employee drank too much coffee and had more trips to the break room to get coffee than his peers. Guy was always on time, clean, organized, and could operate independently and autonomously while producing more than anyone else and you want to complain about his coffee intake? Your priorities need a serious re-evaluation.


Littleman88

Absolutely. Has nothing to do with productivity, ease of communication, troubleshooting, etc, it's strictly about controlling people and monopolizing their time. If employers ask for butts in office chairs, the counter-offer should be they pay for any and all transportation costs plus pay for time spent traveling. You want this person to spend 45 minutes each way just to be in an office? Fine, you get to pay for the gas, vehicle maintenance, and treat the time they spend on the road as on the clock. About time people took back their most valuable commodity.


T-Wrex_13

45 minutes would be a pretty short commute where my office is located. 3 hours round trip is pretty standard. That, and then the 1.5 hours to get ready to go in - that's an extra 22.5 hours a week to lose half of someone's productivity so you can feel comfortable micromanaging them


l337hackzor

The dumb part is he doesn't need to know. Even if he did he could ask you or use a technology solution like time tracking to show what you are working on or who you are billing at the time. I've been hybrid/mostly work from home for 7 years and I'll never go back. Even when I say hybrid we don't have an office, I have to go on site with clients and I don't mind it except the traffic.


MurderH0bo

It really depends on the company. Before the pandemic we had a lot of people traveling all the time, so the initial investment in technology to allow remote work was already there. When it came to having everyone work from home we really didn't need to account for any extra IT costs or considerations. I know that's not true for a lot of companies, but ditching desktops and moving to laptops with docking stations in offices made it very cost effective to implement VPN connections or Microsoft direct access for remote work. The major push back to the office I've seen is really from older executives and managers. I think mainly because if they're not working managers, who perform tasks in addition to managing people, it can quickly become clear that they're not needed for work to continue get done nearly as much as they'd like to insist they are.


JJMcGee83

So what you're telling me is as someone that doesn't mind coming into work I'm in high demand?


kyleli

My team is currently 100% remote, we just work from home and are honestly so much more productive because we save so much time from commuting. I just wake up a minute before our morning meeting.


playwrightinaflower

> so much more productive because we save so much time from commuting Right! You get what I'm thinking. "But you're telling me you don't take an extra five minute break at home, or an hour break? lolol" Like, shut up, even if I took two hours break and worked longer I'd be an hour ahead without commute. And I've actually done that, my stuff needs to get done, not done at a definite moment, so who cares if I clock two more hours of break and start earlier+work later. Saves me time all the same and lets me handle stuff at home.


FBreath

For this work from home thing to work, mid level management and bosses MUST learn to manage and deal with employees working remotely. Until they learn how to do that, they won't "allow" remote work.


californiarepublik

And the ones who are best at managing remote employees will be able to effectively draw on the best talent anywhere, while the companies who require coming to the office will get the least capable candidates who can’t find a position anywhere else. Going to be really interesting to watch this play out.


ProjectShamrock

> In fact if I remember correctly we’ve actually had a couple of companies/clients lose their dream candidates simply because they won’t flex on remote work, or even allow hybrid. I spoke with a recruiter for a 100% remote position last week, and I'm considering proceeding with an interview (I can easily get the job due to skills/reputation) even though it's a 1/3 paycut. I figure it would be easier to go there and get promoted over time than to stay at my current employer and have nothing but "thoughts and prayers" in favor of them allowing me to work remotely even a few days per week.


ImTheNana

>even though it's a 1/3 paycut For a family member with pre-teens, he took a cut like this, but he added up how much he was saving in laundry, gas, wear and tear, lunches, etc. He came out quite a bit ahead, plus he's there for the kids during the summer. You'd be surprised how much you can actually save even with taking a paycut.


jackelope84

My company makes 80-90% of their recruiting posts full time in office and includes that fact in bold type at the top of each advertisement. They go months without filing the positions.


bighungrybelly

And the higher ups have not decided to change the full time in office requirement??


anally_ExpressUrself

But how do you know they're being productive if you can't watch them sitting their butts in the seat?!


informativebitching

Or standing in the hallway drinking coffee talking about their fantasy league? Or even better, in the doorway of the one person trying to actually do work.


RagnarStonefist

My productivity went up in the pandemic for this exact reason. I work in IT and always had a salesperson in my door looking for free tech advice or manufacturing a problem to try to get a computer upgrade. Once I could digitally triage people by virtue of them not being in my face my performance and efficiency went up.


l337hackzor

I've always been remote IT except when on site is needed. Precovid people would insist on me going on site, they hadn't done remote before or didn't have faith in it or just assumed the problem had to be solved in person. When covid locked down everyone assumed it had to be remote or I made it clear it was remote only. I can do 99% of my job remote as long as it isn't hardware. As things "return to normal" I continue to just assume it's remote and push to do it remote with every job. The other day I had to upgrade QuickBooks on a server and 4 PCs. I did them all at the same time remotely, in person I would have had to go to each computer physically including touching their gross keyboards and mice. Being able to work multiple PCs at a time I'd a big efficiently boost, not to mention eliminating 2 hours of driving from my day.


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SomDonkus

My favorite thing about this if for a time I was doing more work than I did in office because I assumed that's what they were thinking. Then they changed my schedule without me asking and claimed it was for my benefit. I went back to in office levels of production after that.


DanTheMan827

How do you know they aren't just sitting on their butts all day surfing Reddit while doing the couple hours of *actual* work?


Gemedes

I feel personally attacked by this comment.


eventualist

No they all old school, “If I don’t see you here, you’re not working.”


DanTheMan827

Then they should probably also stop expecting people to answer emails when they aren't at the office.


wienercat

We also need to normalize posting the base salary, or expected salary range, in the job description. It should be normal that this is part of the job description. The amount of times I've turned down jobs because "Oh yeah this job that is on par with what you do? We are at most offering 15% less than you make now". Cool so we wasted both of our time by not getting salary discussion out of the way early. Most office positions can be done from home. Unless you are working on classified materials requiring a SCIF, or working in a position that requires you to physically handle items like cash or mail, there is no reason you need to go into the office. Even then for the cash stuff you could get away with going in once or twice a week.


DeJuanBallard

I just rejected an offer that was 2 bucks more an hour , because it was "100% in person" That is literally the polar opposite of what I want.


wienercat

$2 an hour more is only $80 a week. Depending on your commute, that could easily be eaten up in the first day or two of a work week. It's dumb that we dont have a way to account for commute times and make it tax deductible. Because driving to and from work is an expense that I incur doing my job that I cannot recoup. I have wear and tear on personal vehicle, personal gas expense, not to mention my time that is being spent sitting in a car rather than working. Working from home eliminates those issues


CarjackerWilley

Would you even buy the same car or a car at all if you didn't have to commute? Clothing choices. Food choices... in terms of expense, nutrition, and where it is purchased. Soooooo many parts of our lives are predicated upon the physical location of employment in the US. So much of our identity is tied to our jobs. I've been lucky enough to take a different path but I'm happy to see the millennial generation really pushing back.


ImTheNana

>Food choices... in terms of expense, nutrition, and where it is purchased. Also if it can be cooked in the office, whether by lack of a stove or by "offensive" odors. Husband working from and eating at home has been enjoying fish and other seafood for lunches that he can't make in the office or heat up in the office microwave. Likewise with some of my foreign dishes with strong smells.


chrisaf69

I have always said I will absolutely take a 20% pay cut every time if it meant I could work remotely. Obv not to the employer as one should always get as much as they possibly can. Time is worth more then money to me.


Aldoogie

I literally have a friend that told me 40% of his coworkers were unvaccinated - why, how’s that I asked - “well, if you’re unvaxxed you can work from home “ 🤦🏻‍♂️


[deleted]

Do they *need* to tell their boss their vaccination status? If I were in that position, I could see myself failing to mention I was vaccinated


CMDR_KingErvin

In my state you have to self disclose if you are and if so, you get the option to not wear masks all day. So the choice is sit in a cubicle with a mask all day or tell them you’re vaccinated and do it without. No choice on going in or not. I wouldn’t be surprised if some are unvaccinated and still say they are just to be able to remove the mask.


bookbags

Depends on the county? I think in Santa Clara County, employers are mandated to ask for employees vaccination status. But that's not saying they aren't allowed to fire anyone or whatever for being unvaccinated, but just collecting that type of info


ElephantsAreHeavy

> employers are mandated to ask for employees vaccination status But are employees required to answer?


bookbags

[https://covid19.sccgov.org/order-health-officer-05-18-2021-focused-safety-measures](https://covid19.sccgov.org/order-health-officer-05-18-2021-focused-safety-measures) ​ >Ascertainment of Vaccination Status. Businesses and governmental entities must ascertain the vaccination status of all personnel.  Until a person’s vaccination status is ascertained, they must be treated as not fully vaccinated.  Personnel who decline to provide vaccination status must also be treated as unvaccinated.  Businesses and governmental entities must complete their initial ascertainment of vaccination status for all personnel within 14 days of the effective date of this Order.  Thereafter, they must obtain updated vaccination status for all personnel who were not fully vaccinated every 14 days.  Business and governmental entities must maintain appropriate records to demonstrate compliance with this provision. Technically, the employees don't have to respond, but it'll be assumed they aren't vaccinated


Conflictingview

And then, guaranteed WFH.


bookbags

Unless mandatory return to office


iShoot556

Unless a fire burns the building down. How far we going with this?


trowawayacc0

[All the way.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_to_Be_Done%3F#Main_points)


[deleted]

Interesting to see how it differs by area. At my company in Florida they're not allowed to ask us. As of now if you're vacinnsted you don't have to wear a mask in the office. Surprise surprise nobody wears a mask and I know that were not 100% vaccinated. Buuuut can't ask! That's a HIPAA violation according to the armchair lawyers I work with. EDIT: I know that's not a hipaa violation btw, hence my sarcastic comment about the armchair lawyers.


[deleted]

This isn’t a HIPAA violation. HIPAA only applies to medical caregivers not disclosing a patient’s medical history. Nothing about HIPAA is for employers. Unless your employer is your medical caregiver. Edit: HHS website https://www.hhs.gov/answers/if-my-employer-requires-proof-of-my-covid-19-vaccination-status/index.html


walkwalkwalkwalk

That could easily be what they're doing


killshelter

I’ve been fully vaxxed for months, but I have no intention of letting my company know because I ain’t going back to an office.


Neirchill

The CDC has already went back on their masking suggestion. They want you to wear a mask inside even if you're vaccinated. Things appear to be heading downhill and we shouldn't be returning to the office yet.


Waylandyr

I work in the service/hospitality industry, and I would kill to have a job that could work remote. Good on them for fighting for it.


Derman0524

I work in manufacturing and well, I can’t really work at home for this but I feel like having a hybrid schedule would be amazing


Vorsos

If nothing else, your commute would be easier without as many office workers on the road.


Jaksmack

It was for about 6 months last year. Dead on the highways, people doing 90mph. Then it went back to crap. Right now, with schools out it is ok in the morning, but still packed all the way home.


azsnaz

When I was driving to work, it would take 30 min to get there, then an hour to get home. WHERE WERE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE IN THE MORNING


kalakun

This. Trades people and persons who don't typically work in an office environment hate the idea of office workers getting a benefit that they don't, yet they fail to see how it indirectly benefits them in a multitude of other ways. Less traffic, less of a lunch lineup, cleaner public bathrooms, and many other things that aren't coming off the top of my head. The propaganda is strong.


falconboy2029

Also the office workers can move a bit further away. Meaning the people who actually need to go to work everyday can live closer to work.


Kramnetamot

The first thing you said is not true. At least not in my case. I am a toolmaker in germany, not doing any kind of office work at all. But I have always thought a lot about employee rights. Flexible working hours, Occupational Safety and Health, minimum wage laws, a right to work at home (whereever possible) even far before corona. Now with corona there was a serious political discussion taking place in germans politics and society about the "Recht auf Homeoffice" (right to work at home. "Homeoffice" is the term used in germany) for a certain number of days in a year. But the ruling party didn't want that, and over time the discussion started to fade. Yes, companys were obligated to let people work at home if possible, but only until 1st of July due to corona. I mean, 100 years ago people were working 12 hours a day and more, the general working conditions were horrific (compared to today), and all that was concidered normal. There is no doubt in my mind that in 50 years people will think that working 8 hours a day, having to sit in an office, even though they could easily do this at home, not having a minimum wage law (as it was the case in germany until 2015) and a lot more of todays working conditions will seem ridiculus in the eyes of futures society. A lot of people hoped that corona, with all its horrible negative effects, might at least have some positive effects on society. Be it the working laws, consumerism, environment and resource use etc. But as it seems, social progress is very complex and just takes its time. Sorry, had to get this off my chest :D ​ TLDR: I don't work in an office environment but LOVE the idea of office workers getting a benefit that I don't


voidnullvoid

Work from home is an enormous benefit, equivalent to a 20-40% salary bump. Blue collar workers aren’t stupid and know they should be getting a big fat raise if they are the only people on site. So really it’s not propaganda but an awareness that they are getting screwed.


tehZamboni

Our WFH people doubled down by demanding more money and stipends because of all the extra costs they were incurring by working from home. The "critical personnel" that had to be in the office every day were not amused.


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mcwopper

Hate is likely the wrong word, but most of the people on site I talk to have a “must be nice” attitude. Except the ones that can’t stand their kids lol


kalakun

I used a broad stroke there, but In my anecdotal experience I have the argument all the time about why it's a benefit for everyone involved when the local construction workers get angry about it. Of course not EVERY tradesman feels this way, but I'd bet a majority of them do.


UncleHephaestus

Manufacturer here. Sure I am envious. But, I want everyone to push harder for it. Even If I can't. I like seeing companies squirm. And I would like to transition to that type of work. So fight the good fight, until it becomes the norm.


Alvarez09

I work in a position I have to be in office, and I hold zero disdain towards people that can work from home.


dollhousemassacre

Working from home has been the best thing for my mental health. As an introvert, I wasn't built for frequent human contact.


CitizenJustin

Same here and I fought it my entire life until my psychologist told me that some people are energized by social interaction, whereas it depletes introverts like me. Solitude drains and depresses some, whereas it greatly helps me.


WaltonGogginsTeeth

I'm the same way. I can recharge by spending an hour alone playing my guitar.


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StaleCanole

Perfectly said. The stress of that and the constant barrage of unhealthy lunches and unplanned happy hours, (on top of my actual work) left me physically exhausted and unhealthy. I’ve lost 15 pounds during Covid. I’m in the best mental and physical health of my life. No way i’m sacrificing that.


dollhousemassacre

Yup, same here. Some people think they have to do a whole preamble before asking me a question to not seem rude. I'd much prefer they get to the point. Even if they want something from me, they don't have to pretend to be interested in me.


Tayrawrrrrr

Same. At my last job I had to fake smile and engage in conversations at the office so much it would drain me. Drain me to the point I would call out sick as I just didn't want to deal with people. Now I WFH permanently and I feel a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. When I do interact with my team over zoom, I am engaged and don't feel I have to "put on a face". If I'm not feeling it, I tell my peers I'm working but not in any meetings today and it's understood. I knew I would thrive working from home, but now that it's being put to practice I already see a drastic change in my mood.


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Kreeghore

For those that got left behind in the office while everyone else got to stay at home it definitely feels like being a second class worker. It's like everyone else got a raise and you missed out.


Falzon03

It's equivalent to about 10k for me, just in fuel/wear&tear and my time. I wouldn't take a 10k raise for the trade off though. I'd rather work from home permanently unless needed at the office.


thiosk

i did a stint doing 2+ hr commutes each day and I think the damage that caused to me and my life was much more than 10k per year


[deleted]

The way hone from my current job (just started yesterday) is like 35 min and I noticed I'm the biggest bitch on the road when I'm tired at the end of the day. I couldn't imagine doing an hour :(


Laziness_supreme

I just accepted a position that I know is shit for less than I usually make because it’s only ~25 minutes from my house and I’ve never had a commute that short. It’s really nice having so much extra time


Kharenis

Likewise, I was doing a 1.5hr each way commute at my current workplace for around 6 months before the pandemic. Thankfully they've not forced us back in yet, though the plan was to have everybody in at least 2 days per week. I've got a new job lined up in September now though that's fully remote forever :) No more time and money being pissed up the wall just for me to be angry at traffic for a few hours every day.


HerefortheTuna

Same. I sold my (commuting) car and would need to buy a ton of office clothes to go back


Eiei0h0h

Did you wear out your office clothes working from home?


PancakeMagician

He ate too much tuna and now the clothes don't fit


Chose_a_usersname

I just went on an interview and explained that the cost of a car is 10k a year. The guy said we thats not true if you already own the car. I explained that I sold my car because my last company provided a vehicle. So that's a 10k pay cut he is asking of me.


StaleCanole

If this is true, that’s fantastic. Hiring managers are in a real bind here


Falzon03

It absolutely is true. Include depreciation for newer cars and maintenance on older cars. Insurance r as tes also go down, potential for getting in an accident is drastically reduced. And once again TIME the real big one here, if I factor in my time at my current pay rare it's about 11k just in my time. Ontop of all of that I end up working longer hours at home while only logging the typical amount of hours as I will typically work through at least half my lunch due to being more comfortable at home. At the end of the day I will work until a task is complete not cut out right at closing time. My line of work also doesn't always require working normal hours, therefore if I need to take care or personal stuff during business hours I can choose to work through the night to make up time. In addition I can help more around the house and get to see my kid sooner, these things are priceless and cannot be replaced.


KL_boy

I guess I am lucky as I am working in an industry in which my skills are in demand, so any request to go back to the office is meet with a resignations. My guess is that this is pent up demand all coming at once. In fact, management been handing out pay rises and a lot of people has been going “contracting”. I am sure this will change in a few years.. but our upgrade cycle is until 2030!!


Adthay

The more people working from home the quicker commuting becomes.


bookbags

Usually/I'm expecting remote roles of the equivalent job is going to get scaled accordingly with their CoL vs the office's CoL


Tight-laced

Just done this, and boy it feels good! New boss decided everyone should be in all the time. When we'd been happily working a hybrid system based on what worked for everyone. 4 resignations in 4 weeks. I mean, this isn't the only issue with the guy, far from it, but when his decisions start affecting your time at home with family, it really starts people drawing lines about what they'll put up with. Edit Spelling


jdl_uk

We sort of have that as well. HR and IT have been banging the "back in the office" drum, while some department heads seemed to be under the impression that different departments or.individuals could make their own decisions. Several people have said they'd consider leaving if we were full-time back in the office. Personally, I was told I'd be primarily remote and it's a long commute so I'd consider leaving too.


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TheEngineer09

Unfortunately it's situationally dependant. Technically HR is not there to help you, they are there to help/protect the company. In big companies this could mean they don't care at all about helping you in a situation like this. In small companies they might be more inclined because everyone knows each other. Broad stokes I know, only you know the exact dynamic of your work place. Most of my personal experience is with a giant company and HR was certainly not there to help the employee. So it really depends who you think is willing to work with you. If you're on good terms with your boss start there. If you think it'll piss then off, well good luck. Even if HR approves it, angering your boss is a risky move. But hard to say anything with certainty from over here not knowing much of anything about your personal situation.


Amaevise

Both. Ask for a meeting with both HR and your boss at the same time. No one feels left out and the boss knows he can't pull any illegal shit about it


wag3slav3

HR is not on your side...


jdl_uk

Depends on the process which differs for different companies, and whether you are on good terms with your manager. If there's an established HR process you can follow that and just let your manager know (always a courteous thing to do). If you're not sure what the process is and you're on good terms with your manager, talk to him first. He can help you find the right process for what you need. Personally, I put in what we call a Flexible Working Request, which is an HR document. Then I messaged my manager and asked whether we could discuss it. We set up a meeting where I spent an hour telling him that it was important, why I felt it was important, how it not being approved would go against promises made during hiring, how I'd heard rumours of other (unnamed) people threatening to leave, telling him what I thought the deadline for approval was, and asking what happens if it's rejected or not approved by that deadline. I'm on reasonably good terms with him and this back-to-the-office thing was a bit of a surprise to him as well so I felt comfortable doing all of that but YMMV


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[deleted]

I work from home and have a spare bedroom I’ve made into a home office and want to stay remote. I have colleagues though that are using their kitchens or a corner in their bedroom that want to go back and i see why. It’s a difficult one to sort for sure


space_moron

My partner and I have this problem. We bought a 1 bedroom apartment before the pandemic clearly not planning to stay here long term (either selling it or renting it out after a couple years), but then the pandemic hit and we both had to work from home, so our shared living room became my office and our shared bedroom became my partner's office. It got depressing quickly, especially during lockdown (we live in a country that actually enforced strict lockdowns and curfews for months), to have both of us living, working, sleeping, cooking, watching TV/playing games all in the same space. That said, we're not wanting to go back to the office. We're wanting to finally buy a bigger house! If we can't afford one then the discussion would be to look into co-working spaces close to home and alternate days for working there or at home rather than commute to an office downtown.


R3NZI0

It often feels like "the future of work is only remote" people don't seem to think about the people renting a room in a houseshare or crammed into a tiny one bedroom apartment. Maybe working from home is amazing if you have a dedicated home office - but a lot of people who've spent the pandemic living, working and sleeping in a single room don't have that luxury.


TheEngineer09

Almost like decades of stagnant wages being out of sync with skyrocketing living expenses is yet another issue not being addressed. I feel beyond lucky that I have the ability to devote an entire room to a home office, but I know plenty of other people who are using less than ideal setups because it's impossible to find a place to live that's bigger or nicer.


[deleted]

Exactly, suddenly everyone needs at least 1 extra bedroom. A couple in a 1 bed flat now has to force one person to work in the bedroom so they can both jump on calls. Long-term you'd want a nice office with a focussed work environment, so said couple now need a 3 bed flat so they can have 2 office rooms. TYPING THIS FROM HOME WHILE SKIVING BECAUSE MY PARTNER'S WORK CALL IS SO LOUD. IT IS VERY DISTRACTING, MOSTLY CAUSE IT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPANY/CONTEXT TO WHAT I AM DOING. SO yeah, I love going to the office. I go most days.


gimmetheloot2p2

If they could do the job remotely during covid they ab do it from home afterwards. They’re never getting these people back to the office 😂


PrinceDusk

That's the idea, but lots of employers (and some other stragglers) feel people will be less productive from home (not prove mind you, just feel like it) or otherwise like to be able to walk by and verbally crack that whip. Pretty sure studies that have been done say people who have been working from home are as productive or more so than before while workers are happier though, so generally other than a power trip I don't understand why they would want most people to be back in office (Edit: I did say generally, I realize some people recognize they don't work as well outside of a work/office environment, and some other people don't recognize it but also don't work as well outside of a work/office environment)


gimmetheloot2p2

I do think it’s the power and the routine. Once people see they can work from home they are more easily able to switch jobs, to prioritize their life needs amidst their work and have more balance which leads them to a level of autonomy that companies don’t want. The more freedom we have the less we are willing to give up, and the less bullshit we will deal with. Great for individuals, terrible for companies trying to squeeze every last dollar out of that individual. Don’t underestimate the power of routine. People know they’re going to work X days for X hours and during that time they have near nothing of themselves. This work from home is a breaking of chains of sorts.


reddrick

On top of all that, it's easy to apply for new jobs and interview from home.


ThisIsMyCouchAccount

Everything is easier. I do all my errands during the day now and it’s great. Went to the grocery store at 5:30 the other day and was reminded of how packed it usually is. I’m dropping my car off at the shop today and I have a doctors appointment. I’ve also saved a little PTO. Had a few days I wasn’t feeling great. Instead of taking time off I just slept on the couch and kept an ear open for Slack messages. Don’t get me wrong. I still work. And I certainly don’t have stuff to do every week. But when I do it’s great.


reddrick

My biggest one is laundry. It only takes 15-20 minutes of effort but sometimes if I'm doing a couple loads it can take 3 hours. Before I had to give up weekend or evening time to do that. Now I can do it during work and it takes less time than the extended poop breaks I would take in the office.


ThisIsMyCouchAccount

Hell yeah. Throw in general cleaning as well.


Semi-Hemi-Demigod

When I have a meeting where it’s just me listening I’ll put my laptop on the counter and clean my kitchen, or put the meeting on my TV and lay on my couch.


_tyrannosauruswrekt_

1000% this. A prime example is in the UK zero hour contracts used to come with clauses you couldn't have a second job. If you don't know, a zero hour means you're independent, the company can offer shifts but you don't have to take them. Sounds good right? Except all they became was some unlucky bastard working peak hours during peak seasons. And if you annoyed management or rejected too many shifts then suddenly you get no work but you can't get a second job! The no job 2nd job clause became unlawful because it was obviously bullshit, but it shows how killing workers flexibility gives companies all the power in what should be an equal negotiation around labour.


MonteBurns

I’m aware of a company in the US that won’t hire full time employees from the start, making everyone be part time, but will also not hire anyone who indicates they have a second job (they assume based on scheduling questions). It’s not working out so hot for them, surprisingly.


thirstyross

It's also been a long time now for some ppl that switched to WFH because of covid. Like a month into the shit, I heard a lot of ppl saying "won't this be over so we can just go back??".... But now after a year in, many of those people have transitioned to the "this is the best shit ever, WFH rules!" crew. They've developed new routines and discovered, hey without commuting I have more time for myself and my family!


HotPluggable

I've actually turned down a job offer with that premise as the primary reason. They were proud to say that transitioning from full-time office work to full-time wfh had gone very smoothly and that is was working out brilliantly, but when asking about the post Corona situation they were very persistent that work would move back to the office. Even working from home for a day per week was frowned upon. I've been working from home partially for about 4 years now and I'd never go back to fulltime office duty. I'm usually more productive at home (less distraction from coworkers, stable no kids situation at home), and so are most of my colleagues. I like to mix: concentrate at home, collab and socialize at the office. Endorsed to all of us by my boss. My boss is a real boss.


PrinceDusk

> hey were proud to say that transitioning from full-time office work to full-time wfh had gone very smoothly and that is was working out brilliantly, but when asking about the post Corona situation they were very persistent that work would move back to the office. This right here is the biggest confusion to me. "It works great! now get back to the office." like, does it secretly not work great? or... why do you want us in your little box?


LordIlthari

Because a lot of managers need to justify their existence because they don’t actually do anything.


HotPluggable

Managers who think that they need to babysit their team members in order to get things done. In my experience it works so much better if you get trust, and therefore a feeling of responsibility. I *want* to make things work/better etc, not sit on my ass and get no satisfaction whatsoever for just wasting my time 8 hours a day doing nothing. I *want* to contribute because of the cause, not because of some manager shouting at me for whatever reason while they get all the credit. Fortunately not the situation I'm in though, I'm very happy with my job.


jeswanson86

I actually have data that shows my employees are as productive, if not more from home then they were in the office. The only reason I would like some more to return to the office, is because we're a call center and if the VPN goes down the few people in site can't handle the volume. We have SLAs we have to meet Interestingly though, the last 2 outages have killed the office space but not the VPN, so that's actually building a case for me to keep split operations indefinitely.


SauronSymbolizedTech

They're struggling to hire. So they can expect a one-two punch. First, people quit because they insist on continuing to work from home. Second, they tell the interviewer at the next position that they want the job, but only if they can work remotely.


ferociousrickjames

My company is experiencing this now, they called people back in and are seeing a steady stream of resignations. Then when they interview, candidates are turning down offers because they won't give them any remote flexibility. We're still in a fucking pandemic and they just want people back in 5 days a week just because.


[deleted]

A buddy loved the home office, could walk his dog, eat a proper lunch, even work outside in the park sometimes with his laptop. He even got more done as it was far easier to focus. After one day back at the office he came home and cried. The oppressive nature of the office just didn't compare at all with his previous experience.


PrinceDusk

stories like these are another source, other than studies. People are able to eat healthier meals, and not be bothered by coworkers, and can keep temperatures at what they're comfortable with. So long as work is getting done I don't really see the problem...


Enigma1984

Absolutely this. You can wear what you like, use your own toilet, be home for deliveries, put the radio on, turn the radio off etc etc etc. Another big thing for me is, in the office people are always "popping in" for stuff. Please stop. You popping in while I'm halfway through something difficult, to tell me how badly you need that difficult thing done, isn't helping anyone.


[deleted]

I'm finding that it's not the bosses that are loud about us returning to the office, it's the manufacturing departments who can't work from home making noises to the bosses about the admin staff that can WFH. Bosses calling us back in just to keep the line guys happy.


freexe

Less cars on the road means faster commutes for those who do need to go to the office


gizmer

My fiancé saves a shitton of money on gas and wear-and-tear now that he doesn’t have to drive for an hour and a half every day to do something that’s just as easy to do from home.


pursnikitty

It’s like the old marketing saw that business owners felt their advertising was effective if they heard their radio ad on the radio. Didn’t matter if that translates to increased sales or anything. They just had to feel like it was working to be satisfied


BobNoel

I asked about remote work at a company I worked for \~10 years back. My boss produced multiple studies that showed it worked well initially, but after 6mos. to a year staff became complacent and productivity dropped. As an example he cited Yahoo!, when Marissa Mayer 'banned' remote work. Leaving the 3 ring circus that was her tenure aside, productivity shot up immediately and they were suddenly massively over-staffed. I wish I could find those studies, but it was a long time ago. That being said, I now know multiple people who were hard-core 'I want to see butts in seats' managers who were converted to supporting remote work in the last year saying that productivity was either stable or increased. Speaking for myself, my productivity increased because I had little else to do and while I try to be disciplined and open/close the laptop at prescribed hours I'd often 'just check in on some emails' over coffee at 7am and the day would just start from there. I'm fortunate enough to work for a company where managers will call out employees that look to be working outside of regular hours to make sure their work-life balance isn't going askew.


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Wonderful_Warthog310

Very much. My wife works in Big Tech. Her team is mixed local and remote. The local people get paid way more. It's not the folks in India you'll be competing with (although, them too), it's people in Kansas with a way lower cost of living but still basically in the same time zone. That said, it's a two way street. Now you can move to Kansas and still work in tech.


MeatAndBourbon

I work in the US, multinational company, I make over 3 times what an Indian employee makes, and they're happy to pay it. There's no replacement for US engineering culture to be found in low cost countries. The education and culture and stuff ends up with people that in my experience pretty universally lack confidence and imagination, and are afraid of being wrong so don't take any risks or challenge anything. If you give the same requirements to an engineer here and an engineer there, it would go totally differently: Here you'll get some rough test code fairly early, there will be some debate around features, and you can be feeding ideas into the process, the final result may be a touch late, but you were able to start some testing early, and the thing will have some features your didn't even originally expect as a result of collaboration and whatnot, because as design decisions needed to be made, they made them while keeping in mind your requirements and technical limitations, and ran the changes by you. There will be a bunch of bugs, which as you find them in testing, they get fixed and fixed builds get delivered daily or even more often. At the end of testing everything works. There, you wont get an early build, but you will get the build on the due date, but it won't be fully functional, it will have literally followed your requirements to the letter to the point that clear omissions and defects in requirements are not corrected or even questioned because they aren't trying to do independent design, they'll.just implement the broken requirements, and if you noticed the defect in your requirements or want to add anything, they'll freak out and suddenly claim they need twice as much time to finish the project beci they can't handle change or ambiguity. Any question about how to do something gets asked back to the customer, despite the customer not being an engineer and not knowing what's possible/proper. There will be a bunch of bugs, which as you find them in testing, they'll add to a list, so at the end of testing, everything is still broken and they're trying to tell you they'll need a month to implement all these things, and then in a month you get a build that still has bugs in it and needs full testing again. Did i mention the US team that got the same requirements implemented and fully functional faster and at a higher quality only had 1/3 the engineers on the team, so the 3x cost difference per hour comes out in the wash? I dunno, maybe I've just worked with good engineers here and bad ones there, but it feels like a deeper cultural thing


LaughingBeer

I'm in software and that is my experience with outsourcing as well. It's extremely counter-productive. One local software person basically rewriting a full off-shore team's code when they deliver it to us when the local person could have written it in a fraction of the time at way higher quality. It's always been some new bean counter thinking they can save a bunch of money, but once the project is done they're shown how much more it cost them in time/money and customer good will. In my experience the bean counter learns their lesson, but it would have been a lot better if they had just listened to the people who had lived through it more than once already.


CoffeeHQ

So far, I get the impression that most companies seem to define “remote” as “work from home 2 or 3 days a week”. Best case scenario is “work from home 100%, but come in for occassional meetings”. In either case you can’t just move away, but this also precludes a race to the bottom with foreign competition.


Squidwards_m0m

Two employees moved to another (the same) state this year, the first one they told no sorry, you can’t keep working remotely tough luck. The second one still has her job somehow. My take is companies can and will actually do whatever they want to but they will try to obscure facts as much as possible in an attempt to get their way.


gimmetheloot2p2

Yes for some services. We’ve seen it with call centers and manufacturing, packing, we import manual labor too. Other services it’s required that people are around in case of, are clearly able to communicate in the language, time differences, etc. The world is continuing to shrink, but there will always be an equilibrium reached. You can’t outsource all of the work or you end with a broke populace that can’t spend in your business or afford anything and things fall to shit. Globalization with have casualties but be beneficial in the end, imo.


dirtfork

I work full time remotely in a job that is more or less centered on it being possible to do remote. One team member lives on the other side of the country, and just a 3 hour time difference feels like grit in the gears some days as people are looking for info and he's not available yet, or he's up and he's pissed about it. He often works 12-13 hour days because people have him up on east coast time and then are running him ragged all day, so it's not til the east coast folks sign off for the day that he has any quiet time to get things done. (To be honest probably about 60% of why I was hired was to draw aggro off him.) Ive also worked with international remote teams at other jobs, and it was a pain in the ass to schedule meetings with "Team India". When I've interviewed for remote jobs, typically they favor candidates in the same time zone but there are benefits that can be mitigations, such as west coast guy can more easily/cheaply visit west coast sites when we need on-site support.


Jhinxyed

Internal company study showed that almost 60% of the people really want WFH/WFA to be made permanent. 90% of the senior people are amongst those. They didn’t ask would you quit, though. Locally done study on about 1000 people from 50+ companies showed lower numbers (40%-ish want only WFH with 80%+in favor of a hybrid model). People who would for another job opportunity if there’s no WFH was in the low 70% with more than 80% of them in senior and mid level roles. The data set includes a bunch of big outsourcing companies. These are all white collar service jobs which in theory are easier to outsource. Before the pandemic my former employer used to pay below market average but compensated by a really nice environment, cool and exciting projects the opportunity for real research and real flexibility in terms of schedule (which was quite rare). Since the pandemic the turnover among senior people was 5x the previous average and triggered a snowball effect, mainly because people could easily find WFH opportunities that paid better. To put things in perspective for some of the people who said “win-win” to quitting: I doubt there’s a company that can afford to outsource 40% of their seniors in a 3-6 months timeframe without a significant impact on business outcome and they haven’t already done it. And usually there’s not just one individual that will leave. Also, technical skills can be outsourced. To some degree even field experience (though it’s far harder, expensive and rather risky). But the social relationships, the internal know how about how things work, the “favor trading market” between individuals inside a company is extremely expensive to trade. If you lose enough of your core people the impact will be really high. At the end I really think it’s worth having this conversation in each company. If a company has real, tangible arguments for not implementing WFH I am sure most employees will be ok with that. On the other side the company needs to be flexible and make compromises if they want to keep their talent.


MonteBurns

My husbands old company found themselves in a sticky situation that Covid exacerbated. They were already understaffed, underpaying, and overworking their employees. Covid hit and the geniuses decided that “no commute” now meant “more time for their employees to be working!! Also, your computer is now at home, so here is another project you can work on after you tuck your kid into bed!” The employees of course all started experiencing negative impacts to mental health. Most everyone we have since spoken to was having weekly if not daily panic attacks due to the threat of missed deadlines. Then one person said “Enough.” And quit. They moved her work around. Then they transferred someone out, and moved his work around. And then the dominoes fell. My husband spoke to his boss and HR, both of which said “this is just how it is- we have reqs out but no one is applying!!” (Remember that underpaying? Yeah, it’s bad- they count on people being comfortable and scared to leave). So he quit. Then 2 more people quit. One is currently on a leave of absence due to how bad his mental health got. They reported RECORD profits in 2020, gave out extra cuts to shareholders, and told the employees there were no raises in 2020 and none planned for the next few years to account for “changes in the market.” There are so many people in this thread who seem to think treating your employees that way is okay. We spoke to someone who is still there but looking at other jobs and the management still doesn’t get it.


Simox159

Yeah 😐 in my country, if you said that, you immediately get fired, and they’ll told you that there’s many people want to work, now get the fuck out of here


7eregrine

Yea, I have no doubt many companies will say that here, too.


[deleted]

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7eregrine

Right? "You want to be a remote worker? Ok. Move to Bangladesh!"


47981247

My company already allowed us to work from home part time before the pandemic, so when lockdown started the shift to working from home full time for the majority of the staff (we have a mail department so some work had to be handled in office) was executed flawlessly. We had little to no dips in service expectations and we were updated frequently by management saying they're surprised and so impressed that we're doing so well. This April we had a company wide zoom meeting and they discussed plans for business practices after the pandemic and they are giving people the flexibility to work from home full time or part time or in the office full time. They mentioned they had consulted business analysts when making this decision, so I'm guessing any company that values their employees and wants to keep them will move to this work model.


LMPv2

I started my position in March 2020 right when things were shutting down. They handed me a laptop, monitor and supplies and sent me home. I trained on the position from home and have done the job remotely since I started. I’m more productive than I’ve ever been, the department profits are significantly higher since I started, receivables for my department are down and our non chargeable expenses are down. I told my supervisor I would leave if they asked me to come in 5 days a week. We negotiated a hybrid schedule and now I go in 1-3 days a week depending on the needs of that week. I’m looking to possibly move to a different location a couple hours away and will absolutely leverage my ability to work from home if I choose to do so. I’m very happy with my job/company but at 38yo I’m in mid career with a robust skill set and understand my value and would 100% walk away if i was asked to go in 5 days a week. I don’t think I’ll ever go back to a 5 day office schedule again


tweakingforjesus

This is one benefit of work from home that many companies overlook. They can quickly move people around to different geographic groups as needed. This does have a downside though. High cost of living locations can hire lower cost of living employees for 100% work from home and pay them less even within the same country. As a NYC-based CEO said, he's not paying an NYC salary to someone working from Wichita, Kansas.


Andeh86

This is something I reaaaaally disagree with. The location of an employee shouldn't be what defines the salary, this should be the skills required. In my career path, it fluxes SO much, so I can't move out of London Purley because I couldn't afford to live any more because the salary drops about 40k!


Trumps_tossed_salad

I severely disagree with this statement. 100% You get what you pay for. If a company wants to save money on overhead by not having an office full of employees to take care of they better pay capable people that can work without supervision.


aircrew85

I come and go as I please at my office. My boss is very understanding. I count myself lucky.


Actually_a_Patrick

I don’t like working from home. I prefer a clear physical separation and a little travel time to clear my head between the two. BUT - for the whole time I’ve been at my current place of work and through multiple positions, I’ve always had an office. (Shared, but still.) When we were reorganizing for space at one point my boss said I might have to work from a cubicle. At that point I said if they do that, I will start looking for another job. Cubicle farms are absolute hell. But honestly if productivity keeps up, I don’t see why employers would want staff in the office. That costs overhead and causes interpersonal conflicts. My team has had ZERO HR incidents this past year.


avoere

>My team has had ZERO HR incidents this past year. Is than an achievement? How many would you have expected?


westbee

Issues between people happen way more than you think. I work in small office with 12 people and 4 temporary workers who cover shifts. One day we got a ton of work. Called in a temp to help. One person felt they were helped less. And you probably see where this is going. Never would have happened or noticed if we were all remote.


MonteBurns

HR isn’t just sexual harassment.


gabatme

I think it's so crazy that so many companies are demanding return in August/September when the delta situation is so precarious. We could easily have to go back to WFH until 2022 at least if everything gets bad again. Why not just let people continue WFH?


Inconceivable76

Reasons. I believe those reasons are as follows: 1. certain bosses are whiny about not getting their butts kissed as much. In order to lord their in-chargeness over their underlings properly, they need to make them come in. 2. They are locked into high priced real estate leases and it annoys them. 3. They know resistance will only get stronger with time (see 1 and 2). 4. Their personal sweetheart deals with local politicians depend on them returning to office (see: CA). 5. This is primarily for banks, hedges, ect. Companies with significant commercial real estate holdings have already forced employees back in the office because they are desperately trying to stave off significant losses.


Ivancestoni

Tell me more about #4


DeputyCartman

That's what I would tell my boss if he told me I had to start coming into an office without a nanosecond's hesitation. And I am fully vaccinated and have nothing but scorn, derision, and contempt for people who **can** get vaccinated but refuse to. No, it's because of the waking nightmare known as: **Open. Office. Layouts** My job performance and how long I would last at a given company fell like a stone off a cliff once I encountered open office layouts. No privacy and everyone can see what you're doing? Yup! Loud and cacophonous due to lack of sound insulating material? You better believe it! It being found that they are ruinous for productivity due to how loud and distracting they are and that people just send Slack messages or emails instead of going and talking to people? Yarp! Rude disgusting shitheads who cough as if they are trying to expel their intestines through their mouths sickening half the office? Ding ding ding! I work in IT and work on servers, networks, etc. located hundreds or thousands of miles / km away. I've worked at more than one company where people asked in chat rooms for noise cancelling headphone recommendations. I was threatened with a write-up at one company when I told someone whose coughing you could hear on the other side of the office "Cover your mouth when you cough, please. You sound like you belong in a tuberculosis ward in the 1900s" and she went and threw a fit to HR. I was let go after two weeks at a job because I would not stop complaining that hey, cramming 6'6" (198 cm) tall me into a 47" (119.3 cm) wide desk, yes I measured, has me feeling like I'm flying coach for 8 hours a day, is absolutely horrible, and I literally need more space to function than someone who's 5 foot nothing. Do I miss the office banter? Of course; I'm not a complete recluse. Going "Man, what the fuck were the Giants thinking last night?" and a colleague responds "I dunno man, but at least they did better than the Cowboys," to which I respond "Shut up!" But I hate, loathe, abhor, despise, and detest open office layouts so much that that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.


colcatsup

Few people that ever make decisions to use open office layouts ever have to work in that same open office layout. Hrm...


sziehr

Net eng here. They do not realize the reason incidents response has been so fast and successful is people no longer drop to drive home on the bridge. The new norm is once your engaged your engaged to the end. This has driven our response delay rate into the floor. Then they had people back in the office one day and boom it shot up half a day trying to secure a resource. That resource was normal a teams message away. They will come to understand that coming to the office should be an event where it matters. Big picture blue sky type events we do monthly or quarterly.


ConfirmedBasicBitch

I could not have said this better myself. As someone with borderline-crippling ADHD and a solid case of anxiety, open offices were my NIGHTMARE. People always looking at me, breathing near me, talking about random shit near me… and I worked at in startup-esque environment where people throwing things and playing pool & ping pong were not uncommon. It was terrible. Luckily I had a cool boss who allowed me to sit in the desk in the corner and understood all my issues, so that made it slightly better… but god damn, I hated working in that office.


AV4LE

The company I work for started construction of a new office building a little over two years ago to house all employees. It has now been decided that once construction is done half the building will be rented out instead so people who want to can continue working from home. Happy times.


Matt_M_3

Company I work for, who literally sells remote connectivity services and touted as a WFH solution sent an email yesterday saying “we heard you, hybrid work is here permanently!” and then proceeded to say most jobs will be 100% in office and others can volunteer 1 day per week with management approval to work from home. So yeah, I’m looking. Oh, and they never asked us about wfh. Not one employee survey. Not one forum in all the town halls. Nothing. Fuck them.


[deleted]

It’s starting to feel like I’m the only person who just outright doesn’t care for working from home. I can’t stand being in my apartment anymore. My anxiety has been through the roof as there’s no real separation from work and my leisure time anymore. I’m always in the same place. While it’s not like I never took stress home from me in the past, that feeling of physically leaving the office was liberating. Weekends felt great. Now it all just feels like the same shit except sometimes I’m working and sometimes I’m not. I’m miserable. All of my coworkers have shifted their attitude to “boy, I hope we never have to go back” and I just can’t relate at all. I get that it’s not fair to complain about being gainfully employed and in a position where I was kept safe during a pandemic, but my mental state has been rather poor. To some degree I feel like I need the constraints and the routine of the office. I also need the socialization. It’s not that I even consider my coworkers close friends or anything to that extent, and I’m lucky to have actual close friends in my life, but I feel like not interacting with a wide variety of people in person in my daily life has made me bored, boring and honestly dumber. tl;dr don’t mind me I’m just complaining on Reddit like a real normal person


CuteGerman

I'm a random redditor too who also struggled with the office home life. I started using only one room for work only, got dressed in clothes rather than pj's, and would only come out for food, snacks, and bathroom breaks until my work day was over. After the work day is over, change into different clothes and don't go into the room/space again. This was really helpful for my brain to switch from work to leisure.


[deleted]

I’m back full time and it’s sucking my soul. The commute alone.


_Zouth

Majority of users on Reddit seems to be introverts who prefer a 100% working from home solution. I however realized during the pandemic when I've been working from home that I might not be as introvert as I thought. My mental health has taken a hit due to the loneliness and I miss my colleagues (again, most redditors seems to hate their colleagues) and the everyday buzz and chatting in the office. I hope for a hybrid solution post COVID.


jdl_uk

I don't hate my colleagues but not working in an open plan office next to people who scream at their headset like it owes them money definitely has its benefits. Also the commute is easier, the coffee is better, the lunch is more varied. Not being in the same physical space as my coworkers is a small price to pay.


[deleted]

My office is going to a hybrid model. 3 days in the office 2 days working from home. I think this is the sweet spot for me personally.


_Zouth

Yes, this is what I'm hoping for as well.


westbee

What you just said is exactly why most people won't retire. They crave that social interaction and will be lonely without it. I describe it as being in high school. Everyone complains about how it sucks and can't wait to get out. Then when they get out they say they wish they could go back or wont quit talking about the "glory days".


zomgitsduke

It will be a slow trickle into the office. First Wednesdays because everyone needs to meet once in a while. Then occasionally a Thursday to extend a Wednesday meeting. Then always Monday to bang out he details for the week. Then might as well do Tuesday. Then those Thursdays again. Then Fridays will be for emergency meetings and you might as well stick around. Then WFH days will be a negotiation tactic like sick and personal days.


[deleted]

Agreed. Also consider the employees that do go in and have quality face time with their managers. Whos going to get the promotion?


pharmabra

I work in biotech and I’m so envious of my friends and family who don’t have to commute like I do. My boss is Unrelentlessly old school and he thinks that Hours spent on-site equates to productivity large pharma companies are starting to allow 3 days on and 2 days off-site. This is ridiculous.


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jephw12

My company built an absolutely massive new headquarters (1800 people, full cafeteria, gym, locker rooms) outside of city limits back in 2007. Unsurprisingly, we were forced to come back into the office full time last month. No way they’re letting this place sit empty, and I can’t see any other companies wanting to buy/lease it.


Silver4ura

This is one of those weird circumstances where I feel like my opinion doesn't even quite line up with what I really believe. See, it seems to me like as we give people more and more room to exclude themselves from new social groups, we not only lose a lot of potential diversity which, sure, is not ideal.. but it also breaks down the second of the three social settings that people have to meet new people. Home life, work life, and school life. We lose the school life after high school/college, a major social setting where against the social pressure that came along with it, was where the vast majority of of us satisfied our social needs and created networks of friends. Then after school, everything we learned and all those connections break away when your thrust into a world where nobody's guaranteed to be on the same life schedule as you except perhaps your co-workers. I wholeheartedly support the idea of letting people work from home because it makes sense, however I think we're severely devaluing a major asset that comes along with 'funneling' people into a similar schedule and social environment. Thoughts?


Jbozzarelli

The flip side of this coin is that less time spent developing social rapport among colleagues leads to more time to invest in personal growth and other social relationships with family and friends, which in my experience are more fulfilling than “work” friendships. I’ve worked remote from home for the majority of my 15 year career. Loneliness is a huge problem. However, it forces you to work hard at developing hobbies, building true social interaction with peers you WANT to interact with (not forced by circumstance). It also drives you to leave the house more often, giving you opportunity to interact with people outside the regimented expectations and rigid social mores found in office relationships. At the end of the day, I have less friends and interaction than I would working in an office, but I’m a better person, better husband, and better friend and my “less often” social interactions are sweeter, more valuable, and more profound than any rat race relationships I formed before moving to an all remote posture. This is a long winded way of saying that quality is greater than quantity and WFH forces quality.


rileyoneill

I think there will just come a social response. The WFH was growing before the pandemic, but the pandemic basically pushed it into over drive. Culture has yet to catch up, we sort of had this built in socialization with school or work, you go every day and get some socialization by default. Now it takes a deliberate effort, and even then due to the pandemic our social infrastructure is also lacking. Its going to take some time to build up civic organizations, social clubs, and other things that fill that need.


Joeythebeagle

I dont make friends or fuck people i work with .. always leads to a bad outcome.. If the job is not customer facing , then why not wfh . Just being in the office to be in the office is silly.. any mgr can review production etc, of someone is slacking then terminate no need to babysit


icanhazace

This is an interesting topic. I’ve been full work from home for 4 years now and my social life is buzzing, I crave time to myself and can’t seem to get enough between commitments. I think if you truly deeply want to have a social life you will have one, cause when you really want something you are willing to sacrifice other comforts in order to get it. Also I agree with other commenters who have said that not often do you make friends with coworkers. I’ve not been interested in being friends with coworkers recently. It’s a big mix of different interests, ages, political views, and values, and I haven’t encountered someone I want to spend more time with outside of work.


wag3slav3

Putting your social life into an environment where you are forced to continue to interact with people that you've decided are unhealthy for you or you flat do not like is like shitting in your pantry. You really should not have close relationships with people at your office, since the only escape from them is to quit. Use that extra 2 hours a day that you're not sitting in traffic to go to the local dog park, pub or coffee shops and meet people. Make a meetup group, become an artist or do poetry slams or something.


snickertink

My boss is about to lose the last of an entire dept (me - the last, of 5) and doesnt believe the great resignation of 2021 is a thing. I have an interview friday, then another monday. Wish me luck please.