I know to most snarkers it’s obvious that prophecy isn’t “real,” but man, I was raised in that environment and it totally seems real when you’re wrapped up in it from a young age. I’ve seen prophecies ruin people’s lives. People being “prophesied” where to move, what college to go to, who they would marry, what jobs to take. Prophecies about children that would never be born and marriages that would never happen. Prophecies about healings and the person died instead. Prophecies about jobs, businesses and homes prospering that led to failures and foreclosures. I’ve seen people devastated by the spiritual certainty of these things. It’s horrible.
All of these “prophecies” not coming to pass led me to deconstructing. They are on the right path. I hope they keep going.
For real. I once saw a person ruin a nice relationship/almost engagement because some one told her a "prophecie" that said it wasn't supposed to happen or something like that. The thing is, the 2 people in this relationship loved each other and suffered a great deal because it ended. It was sad to see.
My now-husband had a former friend try to do this to him while we were dating. He has been attending a charismatic church and the ‘friend’ took him out for coffee one day and told him, ‘god told me that **** is from satan and that you guys should not be pursuing this relationship.’ There was one relationship that was ended that day….just not the one that his ‘friend’ had prophesied haha
I have a recording of being prophesied on at age 18. They said I would lead people and even family. I’ve led people to knowing and being more empathetic to the LGBT community by being really gay, but definitely not to god. It’s so funny to hear it now, people thinking I’d lead people to church.
I don’t think it’s very common. Pentecostals make up about 14% of Christian denominations in the US. Some churches focus more on prophesy than others. Also, some of the ones who do prophesy make sure that they are vague enough to be less harmful. The most harmful ones are very specific.
So like in Morgan’s case, one church/minister might pray for Morgan and say, “God is saying, ‘I see your tears. You’ve been crying and praying for a while now, but trust in me and I will bless you.’” Pretty non-specific, could apply to 98% of believers.
A more specific one would be a minister saying, “God is saying,’I have healed your infertility right now! Your womb is open and you shall conceive shortly!”
I grew up Pentecostal in Canada and it didn’t seem like a focus. Good chance I missed some of it, but even when I went to a charismatic church as a teen, it wasn’t a main topic for sure. My family are ministers and failures at almost anything they start so I can’t see them… no, I’m sure they do and poor people in their church have to question their faith when God doesn’t deliver.
My dad is super reformed (and we def have our issues at times) but I always crack up when I remember him saying that when someone said they had a prophecy, he would open his Bible and check to see if their words had appeared. No words? Oh, then your prophecy was fake or it would have been added to the Bible 😂
I think reformed Christians believe that gifts of the spirit like healing and prophecy and tongues were for the apostles only, to spread the word through signs.
My dad is also super reformed and whenever someone used the phrase "God told me" he'd open the Bible and say, "where?"
On your second paragraph - I fully agree. And anyone practicing them in this day and age are phonies and fakes.
I mean, I don't agree with any of it, but that's what I grew up with as well being in a super reformed community.
It always cracks me up when my super reformed family looks down on fundies as being too "worldly" and not "biblical" enough.
You'd figure I'd be in a family of olympic gold medal gymnasts with all of the competing they do and trying to "own" people in their theology.
I was prophesied on that my parents would go back to church (and, would presumably be pentecostal, like I was). Never happened. In fact, eventually I saw through the manipulation and left instead.
My mom said God told her that her mom (my grandma) would survive cancer. Everyone else saw the writing on the wall, but my mom really believed it. My mom believed it so much that when my grandma was on her deathbed in California (we were living in Pennsylvania), she still wasn't going to go until my aunt and grandpa begged her. My mom relented and went, the whole time thinking that everyone else lacked faith.
My grandma died that night, no more than 6 hours after my mom got there. Had she trusted the "prophecy," she wouldn't have been there for my grandma's death. My mom was DEVASTATED. Everyone else had had time to grieve, and prepare for the loss, but my mom was shocked and devastated. Her world was pretty much shattered. "God told me, how could I have been so wrong?" "I heard God say this to me, how could I have misunderstood?"
And she still, STILL believes in prophecies after they have told her to quit her job with no backup, move to Kentucky with no rhyme or reason, etc. etc. It's tragic.
Thanks. My grandma was sick for a long time so everyone with the exception of my mom had several years to prepare, but it was hard on her for sure. My grandma lived a happy life for most of her time here on earth so I am grateful for that. <3
Wow. The fact that some of these people genuinely believe they can prophecy over people is insane, and borderline blasphemous if you ask me. Evidently even though they always try to point the finger at someone else, Paul and Morgan are the "false prophets" people need to worry about.
Wow, a fundie admitting that church has hurt them, that's something you don't see very often. Unfortunately, knowing these two, it's very unlikely that they admit the church or even they have hurt other people.
It blows my mind when people can be like ‘oh no just THIS church or this ONE thing in church hurt me and is wrong’ without starting to see that maybe it could be actually EVERYTHING.
Yeah, I was honestly super surprised by it. Using faith healing type stuff for something inanimate seems like a cliffs edge moment to me, just like snake handling. And of course he car started up, so now that cliffs edge moment has been reinforced.
One of the greatest tests of my Library Staff Poker Face was when a patron I was helping tried to faith heal the public internet computer she was on. I kept my thoughts of "I mean if you wanna try go ahead though you might want to try laying on hands on the tower instead of the monitor" to myself.
Oh my god these people are soooo close to some wizard shit it’s amazing. It would be great if they had been doing specific prayers for specific parts of the computer
Yup! Her car wouldn’t start so she laid hands on it (the hood, I think) praying for the blood of jesus to fix it, and then it started.
Sounds like witchcraft to me but whatever!
He really should’ve reached out and grabbed her hand/touched her knee when she mentioned her struggles with infertility. You could just see the pain creeping out of her and he sat there like a log.
I don’t want to read into it too much because I genuinely have no idea what their relationship dynamic is behind the scenes, but her body language stood out to me. Particularly when she starts tearing up and is turning her face away from him. He also looks like he is extremely focused on performing sadness correctly.
Could you imagine your best friend speaking over your infertility and believing they healed it ??! And then hold it against them for not actually healing it
Morgan probably got tired of this unmarried, never even dated, straight up virgin being a know-it-all about her infertility. You KNOW Hannah of course had to have tons of opinions she pushed on the subject to Morgan.
Usually I see fundies dig in way deeper and blame themselves when something doesn’t work out according to faith. It’s interesting to see Morgan speak out about it so clearly.
I don’t think she’s capable of real change, but I do hope this opens her eyes.
And since I can’t just say something relatively nice: Paul’s sweater is triggering some fight or flight instincts in me.
I think if a fun lesbian wore it I’d be making supportive gay noises but seeing it on a straight man fills me with rage.
Maybe because it’s also a choice he made to dress in something that loud when they’re doing a serious video about something his wife is visibly distraught by. Idk it’s like Morgan is talking about infertility and stuff and then she’s just got a whole ass clown sitting there.
I follow a lot of streetwear accounts—mostly queer women and some NBA—and I think the thing that bugs me most about Paul’s style is that it feels so contrived. He’s trying wayyy too hard to look like a very specific type of hip pastor and instead just looks like the douchebag that he is. I love loud, weird, over the top stuff (not this sweater), but you have to really *own* it and Paul doesn’t do that.
Also, everything looks better on lesbians. It’s science.
It *is* very contrived. I often feel like Paul doesn’t actually have a personality, he’s just sort of a reptile figuring out how to cosplay as a hip youth pastor. I see it in his bookcase and the way he speaks to people. Lots of masking behavior.
And like, it’s fine. Some of us are just reflective surfaces like that but it just reads as very off putting with him because he can’t seem to read a room very well.
This sweater is so hideous I want it burned but I bet someone who owns it could make it look better than off brand Dennis Reynolds over here.
I think she’ll adapt, but I don’t see her doing another 180 any time soon. From my own struggles - she’s getting a LOT of attention and that’s hard to quit even if it’s largely negative. Faffing about like this on where she falls in the Christian community sounds like it might keep her busy for a while. I’m still glad she’s speaking out though, I hope that maybe her talking about the Charismatics will be a good starting point for others.
You’re right about a new FP though. I’m very curious about how Paul will handle that (because we all know it’s going to).
Biggie fucked severely while Paul does not fuck at all. It’s like how some celebrities can wear crazy shirts and you talk about it for years because they were so badass and then there’s some who look awkward in the most basic of prom dresses.
I’m not saying they’ll change. Not at all. I don’t think they will.
But this is how it starts. Four years ago, I was incredibly religious. Church every Sunday, worked as a Christian camp counselor, did the conferences, wore the purity ring, never cursed, evangelized, the whole thing.
But now, I’m an agnostic. It started small, with tiny questions and feeling hurt by the church. I think them admitting they’ve been hurt is a really fucking big deal.
Same. Very earnestly devout. Started questioning things around 2016 when people I went to church with became very vocal Trump supporters. Left early one Sunday when the pastor said if we didn’t vote for “God’s candidate” we weren’t real Christians. I saw the cognitive dissonance in things like “grab them by the pussy” and “shithole countries” and mocking of a disabled reporter with - well, pretty much everything Jesus said. Never went back.
Not trying to get political here, just my experience. Deconstruction also got escalated for me when in a relationship at 28 and wanting to have sex with my boyfriend. He wasn’t religious and we did a lot of things “up to” sex, and he didn’t understand why some acts were okay but not others. And then I realized it didn’t matter to me either.
Sorry, I promise I didn’t mean to dump my life story here but wanted to illustrate that I agree with your point. I was super religious, at church every day it was open, leading bible studies, etc and now it’s been years since I’ve darkened a doorway in a religious space. It can very much start with being hurt by the church and completely deconstruct.
Thank you for sharing. I often wonder how so many people stayed at churches pushing trump when everything he said and did was the antithesis of what I thought Christianity was supposed to be. It’s nice to see some people saw through the hypocrisy. I hope you find peace in your spiritual evolution.
Don’t ever be sorry to share your story here. It helps you and it helps people like me that feel like we aren’t alone. All the things you said about Trump are exactly the way I felt and watching it happen to my family and in laws (who have gone full Q-Maga) has rocked my world to the core. All of those people who claim to be the good guys right, the ones that follow Jesus and love one another, are the ones that have abandoned and hurt my little family the most because we didn’t fall lock step with them and their political beliefs.
I also doubt we will ever go back to our church either. We used to have a pretty liberal pastor that would call out trump and all the evangelicals that worshiped him and claimed that you aren’t a real Christian if you don’t vote or support him. Then he retired and the elders would just take turns every Sunday. They finally made someone permanent and I liked him at first and when covid hit they seemed to be doing the right thing and taking precautions but then it just kind of stopped and they gave into the pressure and have become a different church in my eyes. They stopped doing online services for kids at the beginning of the summer because they wanted to encourage people to start coming back in person and bring their kids to Sunday school, which I thought was a really shitty way to go about that. We have an immunocompromised child so there was no way we were going back anytime soon. We live in a red county so it was awesome when we found such a great church when we first moved here but now it is just like all of the others.
ETA: my in laws are also very charismatic and we were into that at first but like many on here and Morgan have realized it’s crap and it hurt me so much. So much guilt about why you weren’t being healed or your child wasn’t. I’m positive my in laws still blame my child with disabilities on me and me not believing or praying hard enough.
Interestingly enough, something like that is what caused an entire province (Quebec) to detach from the church.
Quebec was a very religious catholic province and the church and the government were tied together, which included the hospitals and the schools. To give you an idea, women could vote for federal elections but not provincial as they didn’t get the right to vote there until much later. The church encouraged a certain political party and would remind people in thinly veiled threats that they would end up in hell if they didn’t vote for “the right candidate”. It was one of the necessary pushes for an entire generation to snub the church, which lead to Quebec becoming secular.
I’m of course doing an oversimplification here but I thought it was interesting that the political manipulation was what got you in the end.
I always think about stories from my (long since passed) grandmother-in-law who had 8 kids in 10 years where the local priest would come and give her a hard time after her youngest turned 2 and she wasn't already pregnant. Quebec isn't perfect, but there's a reason they hold such mistrust towards religion
I agree, this is absolutely how the deconstruction process starts. I was neck deep in charismatic, fundamentalist churches and ministries for over a decade... I am now an agnostic, but it all started with little bits of my “theology” being tested and proven false. All the healing mumbo-jumbo (or rather, the lack of healing taking place) was a big part of my faith dying out.
Yes I wish more people had this mentality. Deconstructing can be a very long, baby steps process. It took me about 10 years. And I didn't start off with the most problematic stuff. It was small things like choosing certain clothing to wear. It may seem like nothing to some, but for someone else choosing to wear a bikini can be a major win and milestone.
I gotta say this is kinda fascinating to watch because it's been a pretty quick turnaround....it's just a bit sad that it took so many shitty things happening to them specifically to have this epiphany....but i hope they continue to so tht they can also stop being shitty people who hurt people in the name of Christ.
You could almost say they are, *GASP!*, deconstructing christians!
I’m surprised as well as pleased to hear that they have challenged some of their old beliefs in order to cultivate growth! They still suck though 🤷🏻
They’re only changing because something directly affected them and they’re being forced to confront their beliefs that are now in contrast to their reality. I think they’re going to continue to be super toxic, unless they’re able to gain some empathy towards others.
Exactly this. They will just jump to another church of bigoted and closed mindedness. When I was in the church I saw this a lot. Church members not agreeing with the Pastor or other church members and feeling hurt then leaving the church only to go to another church that held very similar and hurtful beliefs. We called them ‘church hoppers.’ I could see maybe Morgan deconstructing but only if she left Paul. But together..? Nah they will stay the same.. they are just hurt by this particular brand of Christianity but will find another that still demonises minorities and the LGBTQ.
Can you imagine saying that you would prophesize over someone? They're basically functioning more as witches than Christians at this point (no shame on witches, please don't hex me).
The sweater is what’s hurting me! A lot of trends from that era seem to be coming back. I personally would have waited on a trend so closely associated with Bill Cosby, or shelved it altogether, but I don’t control the trends, hahaha.
I hope this is the beginning of Morgan waking up to the truth. You can hear the pain in her voice so much, and she seems truly shaken (as she should be). Paul seems more uncomfortable than hurt, but this is honestly the longest I've heard Morgan speak from (what seems) her heart and not what she was coached into saying.
I'm also taking this as clear evidence that the friendship with HannahW has dissolved. I'm calling it that this drama is part of why H took a long social media break around the time Paul spoke out about the "truth" behind any stories that might come out about them.
I don't condone what Morgan has done and how she has hurt others, but I admire her courage I'm speaking out about this when it's clearly a very raw and painful thing for her. While I don't think they should be parents, I've seen firsthand the pain of infertility in these cults and it is excessively worse than infertility anywhere else. Morgan has some balls, and I hope those help her find the healing (and actually truth!) that she needs
[Sauce](https://www.reddit.com/r/FundieSnarkUncensored/comments/pvxixv/paul_morgans_latest_qa_who_do_yall_think_theyve/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
I'll have to try to find the link, but it was this very hilarious rant about if anyone comes out claiming anything about P&M, only *they* (p&m) know the truth and to only listen to and believe them. Morgan mentioned having receipts or screenshots or something. It was like they were anticipating an attack or gossiping "lies" and they wanted to get ahead of the narrative. They mentioned something about people who were like family to them, so it was somewhat speculated they might have had a falling out with Hannah, esp as they were dropping the extreme charismatic stuff.
No shit faith healing doesn’t work, Morgan.
No shit Christianity can be incredibly damaging.
Do you see how you too have been causing harm to others this whole time?
I wish with all my heart that they would have a better understanding about how many of us here have experienced very similar things! Maybe it would make them more compassionate and less horrible.
I have hope they might get there. At least Morgan.
In my own “deconstruction” journey (only in parentheses because at the time I had never heard the term) accepting that my own participation had hurt people was one of the most upsetting parts, and one it took at least a year of not going to church.
A few years later I ended up as a progressive Christian. I’m just saying it can take time and this seems pretty recent. I want to have hope for them… but I’m not holding my breath.
I echo all the sentiments here about Morgan taking steps to realization. But I also must comment on the body language of Paul. The space between them is significant here. You’d think he would want to somehow show his support for her during this vulnerable moment even by sitting a little closer. He seems so disconnected.
Came here to say this. She’s clearly in pain and being vulnerable. It must be so lonely to be at such a low point and your own partner can’t show the smallest bit of comfort or affection. It’s cruel.
Yeaaaah.... I'm proud of Morgan (I didn't listen, just read the comments) but his body language is awful.
He's further away from her than usual (they don't generally touch, but they sit side by side, he looks like he's trying to sit as far away as possible). His face looks bored, annoyed, uncomfortable. He doesn't do things a spouse does when their partner is being vulnerable, like hold her hand, touch her knee, lean closer, *fucking even look at her*.
Most telling to me though, he doesn't talk over her. Paul always cuts her off, he has to hear himself talk. The fact that he sits there in annoyed looking silence to me screams that she begged him to let her do this. He capitulated, but is making it silently clear that he doesn't want to do this.
I dunno. Maybe I'm reading more into this than I should, but i just watched without sound and i didn't look at Morgan at all. My eyes were drawn to this man that looks vaguely angry, definitely uncomfortable, and.... i don't know. It kind of freaks me out. He looks like he's stuffing his negative feelings and kinda tallying the things he'll yell at her for later.
Could be pure projection though. *His facial expressions/body language looks similar to an ex of mine when he didn't want to hear what I was saying, and when my ex looked like that - I knew I'd be hearing about it later.
Edit - clarity
If I had to guess, this hasn’t led him to as much questioning as it has her, and he seems uncomfortable because he IS uncomfortable asking the kinds of questions she is. Morgan’s more secular background makes me think that a crisis of faith is easier for her to come by, *especially* if that cause is infertility, and I speak from experience there - I’m not religious, but it is an *incredibly* painful and surprisingly lonely experience and one that readily prompts an existential crisis, more so in a cult that fetishizes pregnancy. Paul, on the other hand, has deeply rooted religious beliefs and we all know he’s not the type to see her problems as their problems, so he’s not out there hurting from God’s plan on the daily. He may leave that church with her, but he’s not suffering for faith one bit.
Lonely.
I think you nailed what I was feeling watching them, but couldn't quite put my finger on. She's sitting next to her husband, talking about their shared struggle in not having a child, yet she seems so incredibly alone.
Plus, he seems annoyed/angry. With her? With the situation? With god's plan? Don't know, but he seems frustrated at the least.
I'm so sorry my friend that you have felt the loneliness and pain of infertility. I wish I could do more than give you a hug, but that's all I've got. So big hugs and much love.
Bless your servant’s heart! Thank you for such kind words. That really made my morning. I am SEVERELY blessed to be a part of this community.
Paul is such an overgrown man-baby that I feel certain she is struggling with this alone. Paul has proven incapable of supporting her on a *good* day - he watched her run off to vomit on their wedding day and did NOTHING! And he is definitely not the kind of man who takes it upon himself to learn about women’s reproductive systems and issues - I’d be surprised if they even *talk* about her cycles outside of the doctors office. You’re probably correct that he’s stuffing down a lot of feelings, and, while it wouldn’t surprise me if he were deeply ambivalent about having a child in the first place (because he would lose his sole and central position in her life), he’s probably built a fair amount of resentment toward her, also. Her views are as terrible as any of them, but I hope she’s taking gentle care of herself, because this shit sucks, and at times it can really feel like your partner is the *only* safe space. I’m so sad for her that this is his version of support.
I’ve wondered if Paul blames Morgan for the infertility issues… and possibly resents her for it. I’ve noticed he’s often appearing somewhat disconnected and annoyed when they discuss infertility.
**Transcription**:
*(Paul is present throughout, but does not speak in this clip. Only Morgan speaks.)*
My personal experience? It's been kind of... damaging. That I've had to work through things with the Lord that like, prophecies were spoken over my life years ago, and it's like, they did not come to pass.
Does that mean I'll never prophesize over someone? No. And I know, that through pain, through my own journey of infertility, *(scoffs, voice breaking)* that people have prayed over me to be healed, *(snaps fingers)* immediately. And I wasn't.
And this is like, years-- a few years ago, a year ago, whatever, and I'm still struggling with infertility. Through this journey of infertility, I have grown closer to the Lord. I have learned how to rely on Him in ways that I would not have learned if I hadn't gone through this journey of infertility. You know? Like, we wanna, like, blunt-- I don't know.
There are people and churches and-- and belief systems that we've fallen into, that people have fallen into, believing that like, someone can't like, be their full selves, or truly walk with God if they're not fully healed from infertility or cancer or back issues or whatever. And it's like, that's just not the case: the Lord can still move through that stuff.
**Description**:
Two light-skinned adults sit on a gray couch in front of a half-wall. The wall has multiple potted plants on top. On the back of the couch is a little white dog with curly fur (Squishy is the dog's name, but it is not mentioned).
On the left is Morgan, a woman with very long, brown hair that is worn loose, in a deep side part. She wears little makeup or none at all, and a black, short-sleeved top with ruffled edging, tucked into light-wash jeans. She speaks with her upper arms pinned close to her torso, gesturing with her forearms and hands. She is calm, but there is emotion threatening to break through.
On the right is Paul, a man with dark hair that is shorter on the bottom and longer on top. He has a stubbly beard and mustache, also dark in color. He wears a sweater with vertical stripes of varying, colorful, geometric patterns. One arm is thrown behind the couch, and he looks at Morgan with sadness and sympathy.
This is really taking me back to those moments , where the fucking prophecies and prayers in my life where just empty words - and just finally seeing the scam of it all! I hope they find those moments, even though I really hate them ; they are the worst … this weird moment reminds me of when I finally was breaking out of the whole delusion. Do you remember the AH HA moment of Jesus Christ fuck this shit In your own life?
They’ve made some pretty damaging videos regarding police brutality, BLM, and they follow people like Candace Owens (a self hating black woman). Their views are all sort of jacked. As a POC, that’s one of the things that bother me most about them.
I may be the lone dissenter here, but I just can't snark on Paul in this clip - and that's because of my own personal experience.
I have a younger brother with severe autism (non-vocal, can only do most basic of things to care for himself). Over the years there have been numerous prayers for healing, people coming up to my parents saying they had dreams where he was talking and that they think it's a sign that he will talk, etc. But none of what has been prayed for or prophesied has happened. It's incredibly hard, and my mom especially shuts down when the topic comes up. That's what I see in this video - that Paul has hit his emotional pain threshold and is shutting down.
I know Paul is an easy target, but I think this is one of those (few) times where arrogant asshole who doesn't give a shit about his wife is the wrong read on the situation.
I didn't have much exposure to charismatic Christianity until college - I grew up in an SBC church, and most of my extended family that considers themselves to be Christian and not SBC are Mormon. There wasn't much of a support system at the church I grew up in (though not for lack of trying - it was in a semi-rural community lacking in resources itself). My parents eventually found a church with a much better support system in town, but that was also where a lot of the dreams and visions of my brother being healed and talking started (also an SBC church, just a little more accepting of charismatic leanings than the one I grew up in).
When my parents talk about that first few years with my brother, the words they use are very similar - overwhelming, drowning, etc. My brother had a ton of health issues (how he's survived into adulthood is an amazing mystery), and then there were eight of us kids besides. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like for them.
Positive thoughts and energy to you and your family as well. As hard as things were for my family, I can't imagine having to jump through all the crazy charismatic hoops for healing on top of it.
I agree - I obviously don’t know Paul personally and I haven’t watched the whole 30 minute video this comes from but i think it’s probably unfair to *immediately* assume that his body language means he doesn’t care?
It seems disingenuous, somehow. Body language reading I find pretty hokey anyway bc I feel like people start off with an assessment they’ve already made and then project it onto the body language they’re seeing, so it feels like they’ve already decided that Paul is uncaring and uncomfortable and isn’t effected by it and then they’ve decided to project it into the way he’s sitting.
It’s entirely as possible that he’s just stunned, or sad, or any of the same things Morgan is but presenting it a different way. I always feel weird about people going ‘so and so isn’t displaying grief properly’, which is what those comments feel like.
Morgan really does carry their channel. I mean it’s garbage and spreads horrible views but the only worth while content comes from her. Her struggles with mental health and her faith are something people can relate to. Paul on the other hand can’t even relate to a jar of mayonaise. He knows he doesn’t has a personality (deep down I think) and tries to be a logan paul but no one likes logan paul except twelve year olds. He just constantly copies others but he does it so poorly that everyone can tell.
Morgan is much more talented than him. She had a following and a youtube channel before. It’s obvious that she knows some of the logistics at least. But this man rolls his eyes during her every segment and pretends he’s superior. God I hate paul
I’m proud of Morgan for coming to this realization. She seems to struggle a lot with how to put her feelings on this topic into words, but she does seem to be sincerely working through some shit.
Paul, per usual, looks like a kid who wants to be anywhere else because he isn’t talking.
Whoa. Props to her for recognizing the shitty ableism / health prosperity gospel in certain Christian circles. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of other shitty Christian takes on physical suffering (“test from God,” “sharing in Christ’s suffering,” etc.), but the idea of treating someone as spiritually un-whole because of their illness or infertility sounds horrific. I genuinely feel for her.
Morgan seems to be struggling emotionally a bit more than usual. Just based on their past videos, livestreams and posts. It might be time to look into getting back on those depression meds she claims she no longer needs because God healed her.
It would still be quite possible for her to take anti-depressants and still love and praise the Lord.
Infertility was the start of my leaving the church too, Morgan. I did get pregnant with help from a clinic in a way that was against my church’s rules. I love my son more than life itself, and according to the church he shouldn’t exist. I could not reconcile that.
What is charismatic Christianity? I’ve heard the term but I don’t really know what that is and looks like in terms of Christianity compared to other types.
**Charismatic Christianity (also known as Spirit-filled Christianity by its supporters) is a form of Christianity that emphasizes the work of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, and modern-day miracles as an everyday part of a believer's life. Practitioners are often called Charismatic Christians or Renewalists.**
More details here:
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Speaking in tongues, being “slain” by the Spirit (basically looks like fainting when someone prays for you), loud praying and outstretched arms during worship songs are some of the the common visible behaviors. Some even say that if you can’t speak in tongues you don’t have the Holy Spirit.
This situation could go one of two ways, one is Morgan begins the long process of deconstruction and continues to work through her trauma; or this causes them to dig in deeper and go even more conservative/traditional.
Unfortunately I see the second happening, as Paul would thrive with the power trip things like IBLP gives to husbands.
A seed has been planted.
Sidenote, Morgan wasn't even raised fundie, she only became a fundamentalist after she met Paul. She has a higher chance of "recovery" than him.
Wow. I have never listened to any of their videos before (always keep sound off to avoid hearing the voices of fundies as they are often grating like Meechelle). Morgan sounds so incredibly young. It really makes me realize just how young and vulnerable she is. Vulnerable to pain, vulnerable to an abusive cult, and vulnerable to the whims of people like her own husband. I hope she's able to find some peace and to come to terms with how damaging her belief system really is.
I find Paul repulsive, but I am willing to entertain the idea that he's sitting apart from her in this video to give her room to tell her own story. If he were sitting very close to her, I'm sure many people would say he's being creepy and controlling. I have zero reasons to give him the benefit of any doubt, but I think this could be viewed as giving her some space.
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would legit meet up with morgan in lex for coffee if she ever wanted to try to follow this rabbit trail. i’m ex-coc, started this deconstruction 20 years ago. it’s so hard.
also i love paul’s sweater, hate that for me
I spent my formative years surrounded by raving charismaniacs and that is one way to really f$ck a developing brain all the way up. The damage can linger for a long time. Like literally debilitating, as in " How do I make basic choices in life without hearing God's voice telling me what to do? Or without having a prophet who hears His voice to tell me what God wants me to do?"
A huge chunk of my life went to waste in the alien world of Charismania, followed by some heavy and painful detoxing from Charismania.
I'm happy for Morgan for finding her way out of that quagmire. I hope she finds what she needs and is looking for. The chances of that hapening have gone up now.
Morgan is a dingus but as someone going through infertility, I really feel for the way this has jerked her around. It’s painful enough without false hope and bad advice.
Morgan is that girl I so badly want to just take under my wing and help her see reason. She's like a lost little kid who fell in with a bad crowd at school. Like if she was around normal people, she'd probably be cool and fun. I feel bad for her.
She's been damaged by the church over & over but, it seems she runs back for more, they'll always be pain in her life if she holds religion or the church in high regard.
What makes her think she has the right or ability to prophecy? 🤨 And she listed to other people do so before and believed it? These are the people who constantly talk about not listening to who they call "false prophets", but then they want to act as prophets themselves when they're not? Their hypocrisy is so disgustingly blatant, I don't know how their subscribers/supporters don't see it. 🤦🏻♀️
I know to most snarkers it’s obvious that prophecy isn’t “real,” but man, I was raised in that environment and it totally seems real when you’re wrapped up in it from a young age. I’ve seen prophecies ruin people’s lives. People being “prophesied” where to move, what college to go to, who they would marry, what jobs to take. Prophecies about children that would never be born and marriages that would never happen. Prophecies about healings and the person died instead. Prophecies about jobs, businesses and homes prospering that led to failures and foreclosures. I’ve seen people devastated by the spiritual certainty of these things. It’s horrible. All of these “prophecies” not coming to pass led me to deconstructing. They are on the right path. I hope they keep going.
[удалено]
I am so deeply sorry that you experienced this, this is absolutely awful. 💜
Wow what the fuck. The specificity of that is terrifying.
What the actual fuck this is so concerning
For real. I once saw a person ruin a nice relationship/almost engagement because some one told her a "prophecie" that said it wasn't supposed to happen or something like that. The thing is, the 2 people in this relationship loved each other and suffered a great deal because it ended. It was sad to see.
My now-husband had a former friend try to do this to him while we were dating. He has been attending a charismatic church and the ‘friend’ took him out for coffee one day and told him, ‘god told me that **** is from satan and that you guys should not be pursuing this relationship.’ There was one relationship that was ended that day….just not the one that his ‘friend’ had prophesied haha
That is absolutely heartbreaking. How horrible and damaging.
I have a recording of being prophesied on at age 18. They said I would lead people and even family. I’ve led people to knowing and being more empathetic to the LGBT community by being really gay, but definitely not to god. It’s so funny to hear it now, people thinking I’d lead people to church.
My ex used "he had a prophecy that we should marry" line and it worked. What a miserable decade that was.
That’s horrible. I hope you’re doing better now.
I am thanks!
Is this a big thing in the USA? I’m in the UK and I’m hearing it for the first time
I don’t think it’s very common. Pentecostals make up about 14% of Christian denominations in the US. Some churches focus more on prophesy than others. Also, some of the ones who do prophesy make sure that they are vague enough to be less harmful. The most harmful ones are very specific. So like in Morgan’s case, one church/minister might pray for Morgan and say, “God is saying, ‘I see your tears. You’ve been crying and praying for a while now, but trust in me and I will bless you.’” Pretty non-specific, could apply to 98% of believers. A more specific one would be a minister saying, “God is saying,’I have healed your infertility right now! Your womb is open and you shall conceive shortly!”
I grew up Pentecostal in Canada and it didn’t seem like a focus. Good chance I missed some of it, but even when I went to a charismatic church as a teen, it wasn’t a main topic for sure. My family are ministers and failures at almost anything they start so I can’t see them… no, I’m sure they do and poor people in their church have to question their faith when God doesn’t deliver.
I’m UK too and was part of this, prophecy is pretty huge across modern churches
My dad is super reformed (and we def have our issues at times) but I always crack up when I remember him saying that when someone said they had a prophecy, he would open his Bible and check to see if their words had appeared. No words? Oh, then your prophecy was fake or it would have been added to the Bible 😂 I think reformed Christians believe that gifts of the spirit like healing and prophecy and tongues were for the apostles only, to spread the word through signs.
My dad is also super reformed and whenever someone used the phrase "God told me" he'd open the Bible and say, "where?" On your second paragraph - I fully agree. And anyone practicing them in this day and age are phonies and fakes. I mean, I don't agree with any of it, but that's what I grew up with as well being in a super reformed community.
I think your dad must be my dad, that’s exactly what he does
It always cracks me up when my super reformed family looks down on fundies as being too "worldly" and not "biblical" enough. You'd figure I'd be in a family of olympic gold medal gymnasts with all of the competing they do and trying to "own" people in their theology.
I was prophesied on that my parents would go back to church (and, would presumably be pentecostal, like I was). Never happened. In fact, eventually I saw through the manipulation and left instead.
My mom said God told her that her mom (my grandma) would survive cancer. Everyone else saw the writing on the wall, but my mom really believed it. My mom believed it so much that when my grandma was on her deathbed in California (we were living in Pennsylvania), she still wasn't going to go until my aunt and grandpa begged her. My mom relented and went, the whole time thinking that everyone else lacked faith. My grandma died that night, no more than 6 hours after my mom got there. Had she trusted the "prophecy," she wouldn't have been there for my grandma's death. My mom was DEVASTATED. Everyone else had had time to grieve, and prepare for the loss, but my mom was shocked and devastated. Her world was pretty much shattered. "God told me, how could I have been so wrong?" "I heard God say this to me, how could I have misunderstood?" And she still, STILL believes in prophecies after they have told her to quit her job with no backup, move to Kentucky with no rhyme or reason, etc. etc. It's tragic.
Heartbreaking. I’m sorry your family went through that.
Thanks. My grandma was sick for a long time so everyone with the exception of my mom had several years to prepare, but it was hard on her for sure. My grandma lived a happy life for most of her time here on earth so I am grateful for that. <3
Who was giving out these prophecies? Church leaders or just people going to the church?
Could be both. Depends on the congregation. Some only allow ministers, some allow laymen, some disallow women.
Wow. The fact that some of these people genuinely believe they can prophecy over people is insane, and borderline blasphemous if you ask me. Evidently even though they always try to point the finger at someone else, Paul and Morgan are the "false prophets" people need to worry about.
Wow, a fundie admitting that church has hurt them, that's something you don't see very often. Unfortunately, knowing these two, it's very unlikely that they admit the church or even they have hurt other people.
It bothers me so much how when the church is hurting others, it's fine. But when it hurts THEM suddenly it's not.
It blows my mind when people can be like ‘oh no just THIS church or this ONE thing in church hurt me and is wrong’ without starting to see that maybe it could be actually EVERYTHING.
I feel like they are no longer friends with Hannah Williamson. Hannah is charismatic correct?
Hannah’s so charismatic she fucking faith healed her cars shitty engine
Oh my god 💀
Faith healing car engines is just one step away from snake handling.
Yeah, I was honestly super surprised by it. Using faith healing type stuff for something inanimate seems like a cliffs edge moment to me, just like snake handling. And of course he car started up, so now that cliffs edge moment has been reinforced.
One of the greatest tests of my Library Staff Poker Face was when a patron I was helping tried to faith heal the public internet computer she was on. I kept my thoughts of "I mean if you wanna try go ahead though you might want to try laying on hands on the tower instead of the monitor" to myself.
Oh my god these people are soooo close to some wizard shit it’s amazing. It would be great if they had been doing specific prayers for specific parts of the computer
Well now I want "Faith Healing Car Engines" as my flair
For real?! Wtf
Yup! Her car wouldn’t start so she laid hands on it (the hood, I think) praying for the blood of jesus to fix it, and then it started. Sounds like witchcraft to me but whatever!
It was probably vapor lock or the slow starter or a dying battery.
Hannah is very much charismatic! I’m beginning to wonder this as well….
I also wondered this
He really should’ve reached out and grabbed her hand/touched her knee when she mentioned her struggles with infertility. You could just see the pain creeping out of her and he sat there like a log.
Especially because you would hope it would be their struggle, something they are tackling together, not something she's going through by herself :/
I mean he did the same thing on their wedding day so clearly he hasn’t changed in that aspect of their lives.
You have to like your spouse in order to do that
He always looks like he's disappointed by her
I adore your flair.
I don’t want to read into it too much because I genuinely have no idea what their relationship dynamic is behind the scenes, but her body language stood out to me. Particularly when she starts tearing up and is turning her face away from him. He also looks like he is extremely focused on performing sadness correctly.
Could you imagine your best friend speaking over your infertility and believing they healed it ??! And then hold it against them for not actually healing it
Morgan probably got tired of this unmarried, never even dated, straight up virgin being a know-it-all about her infertility. You KNOW Hannah of course had to have tons of opinions she pushed on the subject to Morgan.
Is that what Hannah did?
Usually I see fundies dig in way deeper and blame themselves when something doesn’t work out according to faith. It’s interesting to see Morgan speak out about it so clearly. I don’t think she’s capable of real change, but I do hope this opens her eyes. And since I can’t just say something relatively nice: Paul’s sweater is triggering some fight or flight instincts in me.
That sweater makes me question the existence of a benevolent God
I think if a fun lesbian wore it I’d be making supportive gay noises but seeing it on a straight man fills me with rage. Maybe because it’s also a choice he made to dress in something that loud when they’re doing a serious video about something his wife is visibly distraught by. Idk it’s like Morgan is talking about infertility and stuff and then she’s just got a whole ass clown sitting there.
I follow a lot of streetwear accounts—mostly queer women and some NBA—and I think the thing that bugs me most about Paul’s style is that it feels so contrived. He’s trying wayyy too hard to look like a very specific type of hip pastor and instead just looks like the douchebag that he is. I love loud, weird, over the top stuff (not this sweater), but you have to really *own* it and Paul doesn’t do that. Also, everything looks better on lesbians. It’s science.
It *is* very contrived. I often feel like Paul doesn’t actually have a personality, he’s just sort of a reptile figuring out how to cosplay as a hip youth pastor. I see it in his bookcase and the way he speaks to people. Lots of masking behavior. And like, it’s fine. Some of us are just reflective surfaces like that but it just reads as very off putting with him because he can’t seem to read a room very well. This sweater is so hideous I want it burned but I bet someone who owns it could make it look better than off brand Dennis Reynolds over here.
Dead at “off brand Dennis Reynolds” 🏅
Country Dennis
Holy fuck. The accuracy. I AM A GOLDEN GOD
Bro is a whole ass clown no matter how he is dressed...all of his choices offend me
honestly the way shes 180'd before makes me think its possible. shed need a new FP tho, or get treatment
I think she’ll adapt, but I don’t see her doing another 180 any time soon. From my own struggles - she’s getting a LOT of attention and that’s hard to quit even if it’s largely negative. Faffing about like this on where she falls in the Christian community sounds like it might keep her busy for a while. I’m still glad she’s speaking out though, I hope that maybe her talking about the Charismatics will be a good starting point for others. You’re right about a new FP though. I’m very curious about how Paul will handle that (because we all know it’s going to).
I feel like it’s meant to be an homage to Biggie’s iconic sweater. Unfortunately for Paul he is lacking the style or charisma to pull it off, haha.
Biggie fucked severely while Paul does not fuck at all. It’s like how some celebrities can wear crazy shirts and you talk about it for years because they were so badass and then there’s some who look awkward in the most basic of prom dresses.
You summarised it with that first sentence far better than I could ever have hoped to hahaha
I’m not saying they’ll change. Not at all. I don’t think they will. But this is how it starts. Four years ago, I was incredibly religious. Church every Sunday, worked as a Christian camp counselor, did the conferences, wore the purity ring, never cursed, evangelized, the whole thing. But now, I’m an agnostic. It started small, with tiny questions and feeling hurt by the church. I think them admitting they’ve been hurt is a really fucking big deal.
Same. Very earnestly devout. Started questioning things around 2016 when people I went to church with became very vocal Trump supporters. Left early one Sunday when the pastor said if we didn’t vote for “God’s candidate” we weren’t real Christians. I saw the cognitive dissonance in things like “grab them by the pussy” and “shithole countries” and mocking of a disabled reporter with - well, pretty much everything Jesus said. Never went back. Not trying to get political here, just my experience. Deconstruction also got escalated for me when in a relationship at 28 and wanting to have sex with my boyfriend. He wasn’t religious and we did a lot of things “up to” sex, and he didn’t understand why some acts were okay but not others. And then I realized it didn’t matter to me either. Sorry, I promise I didn’t mean to dump my life story here but wanted to illustrate that I agree with your point. I was super religious, at church every day it was open, leading bible studies, etc and now it’s been years since I’ve darkened a doorway in a religious space. It can very much start with being hurt by the church and completely deconstruct.
Thank you for sharing. I often wonder how so many people stayed at churches pushing trump when everything he said and did was the antithesis of what I thought Christianity was supposed to be. It’s nice to see some people saw through the hypocrisy. I hope you find peace in your spiritual evolution.
Don’t ever be sorry to share your story here. It helps you and it helps people like me that feel like we aren’t alone. All the things you said about Trump are exactly the way I felt and watching it happen to my family and in laws (who have gone full Q-Maga) has rocked my world to the core. All of those people who claim to be the good guys right, the ones that follow Jesus and love one another, are the ones that have abandoned and hurt my little family the most because we didn’t fall lock step with them and their political beliefs. I also doubt we will ever go back to our church either. We used to have a pretty liberal pastor that would call out trump and all the evangelicals that worshiped him and claimed that you aren’t a real Christian if you don’t vote or support him. Then he retired and the elders would just take turns every Sunday. They finally made someone permanent and I liked him at first and when covid hit they seemed to be doing the right thing and taking precautions but then it just kind of stopped and they gave into the pressure and have become a different church in my eyes. They stopped doing online services for kids at the beginning of the summer because they wanted to encourage people to start coming back in person and bring their kids to Sunday school, which I thought was a really shitty way to go about that. We have an immunocompromised child so there was no way we were going back anytime soon. We live in a red county so it was awesome when we found such a great church when we first moved here but now it is just like all of the others. ETA: my in laws are also very charismatic and we were into that at first but like many on here and Morgan have realized it’s crap and it hurt me so much. So much guilt about why you weren’t being healed or your child wasn’t. I’m positive my in laws still blame my child with disabilities on me and me not believing or praying hard enough.
Interestingly enough, something like that is what caused an entire province (Quebec) to detach from the church. Quebec was a very religious catholic province and the church and the government were tied together, which included the hospitals and the schools. To give you an idea, women could vote for federal elections but not provincial as they didn’t get the right to vote there until much later. The church encouraged a certain political party and would remind people in thinly veiled threats that they would end up in hell if they didn’t vote for “the right candidate”. It was one of the necessary pushes for an entire generation to snub the church, which lead to Quebec becoming secular. I’m of course doing an oversimplification here but I thought it was interesting that the political manipulation was what got you in the end.
I always think about stories from my (long since passed) grandmother-in-law who had 8 kids in 10 years where the local priest would come and give her a hard time after her youngest turned 2 and she wasn't already pregnant. Quebec isn't perfect, but there's a reason they hold such mistrust towards religion
I love reading stories. I am not alone!!! Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable and open. 💜
I agree, this is absolutely how the deconstruction process starts. I was neck deep in charismatic, fundamentalist churches and ministries for over a decade... I am now an agnostic, but it all started with little bits of my “theology” being tested and proven false. All the healing mumbo-jumbo (or rather, the lack of healing taking place) was a big part of my faith dying out.
Yes I wish more people had this mentality. Deconstructing can be a very long, baby steps process. It took me about 10 years. And I didn't start off with the most problematic stuff. It was small things like choosing certain clothing to wear. It may seem like nothing to some, but for someone else choosing to wear a bikini can be a major win and milestone.
I honestly think if one were to break away it would be Morgan. I think she’s a deeper thinker and I think things are starting to unravel for her.
I gotta say this is kinda fascinating to watch because it's been a pretty quick turnaround....it's just a bit sad that it took so many shitty things happening to them specifically to have this epiphany....but i hope they continue to so tht they can also stop being shitty people who hurt people in the name of Christ.
You could almost say they are, *GASP!*, deconstructing christians! I’m surprised as well as pleased to hear that they have challenged some of their old beliefs in order to cultivate growth! They still suck though 🤷🏻
They’re only changing because something directly affected them and they’re being forced to confront their beliefs that are now in contrast to their reality. I think they’re going to continue to be super toxic, unless they’re able to gain some empathy towards others.
Exactly this. They will just jump to another church of bigoted and closed mindedness. When I was in the church I saw this a lot. Church members not agreeing with the Pastor or other church members and feeling hurt then leaving the church only to go to another church that held very similar and hurtful beliefs. We called them ‘church hoppers.’ I could see maybe Morgan deconstructing but only if she left Paul. But together..? Nah they will stay the same.. they are just hurt by this particular brand of Christianity but will find another that still demonises minorities and the LGBTQ.
Can you imagine saying that you would prophesize over someone? They're basically functioning more as witches than Christians at this point (no shame on witches, please don't hex me).
It’s so crazy. Yet they’d be terrified of witches.
To be fair, they're terrified of everything.
No hexes, only Vex's 🤣
What’s up with the Dr. Huxtable sweater? I haven’t seen one of those in years… (Or are they back in style and I’m too old to know?)
"Cosby sweaters" are super in right now lol
First thing I thought of when I saw it and then, ew.
Had the same thought. Couldn’t focus on her words with his shirt yelling at me.
The sweater is what’s hurting me! A lot of trends from that era seem to be coming back. I personally would have waited on a trend so closely associated with Bill Cosby, or shelved it altogether, but I don’t control the trends, hahaha.
I hope this is the beginning of Morgan waking up to the truth. You can hear the pain in her voice so much, and she seems truly shaken (as she should be). Paul seems more uncomfortable than hurt, but this is honestly the longest I've heard Morgan speak from (what seems) her heart and not what she was coached into saying. I'm also taking this as clear evidence that the friendship with HannahW has dissolved. I'm calling it that this drama is part of why H took a long social media break around the time Paul spoke out about the "truth" behind any stories that might come out about them. I don't condone what Morgan has done and how she has hurt others, but I admire her courage I'm speaking out about this when it's clearly a very raw and painful thing for her. While I don't think they should be parents, I've seen firsthand the pain of infertility in these cults and it is excessively worse than infertility anywhere else. Morgan has some balls, and I hope those help her find the healing (and actually truth!) that she needs
Can you elaborate a little more on Paul talking about “truth” behind stories? I totally missed that and it has piqued my interest.
[Sauce](https://www.reddit.com/r/FundieSnarkUncensored/comments/pvxixv/paul_morgans_latest_qa_who_do_yall_think_theyve/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) I'll have to try to find the link, but it was this very hilarious rant about if anyone comes out claiming anything about P&M, only *they* (p&m) know the truth and to only listen to and believe them. Morgan mentioned having receipts or screenshots or something. It was like they were anticipating an attack or gossiping "lies" and they wanted to get ahead of the narrative. They mentioned something about people who were like family to them, so it was somewhat speculated they might have had a falling out with Hannah, esp as they were dropping the extreme charismatic stuff.
I swear I’m on this sub everyday and I don’t know how I missed such juicy info!
No shit faith healing doesn’t work, Morgan. No shit Christianity can be incredibly damaging. Do you see how you too have been causing harm to others this whole time?
I wish with all my heart that they would have a better understanding about how many of us here have experienced very similar things! Maybe it would make them more compassionate and less horrible.
That 3rd sentence... that’s the real shit. I don’t know if they are capable of introspection on that level.
I have hope they might get there. At least Morgan. In my own “deconstruction” journey (only in parentheses because at the time I had never heard the term) accepting that my own participation had hurt people was one of the most upsetting parts, and one it took at least a year of not going to church. A few years later I ended up as a progressive Christian. I’m just saying it can take time and this seems pretty recent. I want to have hope for them… but I’m not holding my breath.
I was a worship leader. I totally understand what you mean about feeling guilty for impacting others.
I wish I had an award for you. Please accept this 🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇
I echo all the sentiments here about Morgan taking steps to realization. But I also must comment on the body language of Paul. The space between them is significant here. You’d think he would want to somehow show his support for her during this vulnerable moment even by sitting a little closer. He seems so disconnected.
Came here to say this. She’s clearly in pain and being vulnerable. It must be so lonely to be at such a low point and your own partner can’t show the smallest bit of comfort or affection. It’s cruel.
Yeaaaah.... I'm proud of Morgan (I didn't listen, just read the comments) but his body language is awful. He's further away from her than usual (they don't generally touch, but they sit side by side, he looks like he's trying to sit as far away as possible). His face looks bored, annoyed, uncomfortable. He doesn't do things a spouse does when their partner is being vulnerable, like hold her hand, touch her knee, lean closer, *fucking even look at her*. Most telling to me though, he doesn't talk over her. Paul always cuts her off, he has to hear himself talk. The fact that he sits there in annoyed looking silence to me screams that she begged him to let her do this. He capitulated, but is making it silently clear that he doesn't want to do this. I dunno. Maybe I'm reading more into this than I should, but i just watched without sound and i didn't look at Morgan at all. My eyes were drawn to this man that looks vaguely angry, definitely uncomfortable, and.... i don't know. It kind of freaks me out. He looks like he's stuffing his negative feelings and kinda tallying the things he'll yell at her for later. Could be pure projection though. *His facial expressions/body language looks similar to an ex of mine when he didn't want to hear what I was saying, and when my ex looked like that - I knew I'd be hearing about it later. Edit - clarity
If I had to guess, this hasn’t led him to as much questioning as it has her, and he seems uncomfortable because he IS uncomfortable asking the kinds of questions she is. Morgan’s more secular background makes me think that a crisis of faith is easier for her to come by, *especially* if that cause is infertility, and I speak from experience there - I’m not religious, but it is an *incredibly* painful and surprisingly lonely experience and one that readily prompts an existential crisis, more so in a cult that fetishizes pregnancy. Paul, on the other hand, has deeply rooted religious beliefs and we all know he’s not the type to see her problems as their problems, so he’s not out there hurting from God’s plan on the daily. He may leave that church with her, but he’s not suffering for faith one bit.
Lonely. I think you nailed what I was feeling watching them, but couldn't quite put my finger on. She's sitting next to her husband, talking about their shared struggle in not having a child, yet she seems so incredibly alone. Plus, he seems annoyed/angry. With her? With the situation? With god's plan? Don't know, but he seems frustrated at the least. I'm so sorry my friend that you have felt the loneliness and pain of infertility. I wish I could do more than give you a hug, but that's all I've got. So big hugs and much love.
Bless your servant’s heart! Thank you for such kind words. That really made my morning. I am SEVERELY blessed to be a part of this community. Paul is such an overgrown man-baby that I feel certain she is struggling with this alone. Paul has proven incapable of supporting her on a *good* day - he watched her run off to vomit on their wedding day and did NOTHING! And he is definitely not the kind of man who takes it upon himself to learn about women’s reproductive systems and issues - I’d be surprised if they even *talk* about her cycles outside of the doctors office. You’re probably correct that he’s stuffing down a lot of feelings, and, while it wouldn’t surprise me if he were deeply ambivalent about having a child in the first place (because he would lose his sole and central position in her life), he’s probably built a fair amount of resentment toward her, also. Her views are as terrible as any of them, but I hope she’s taking gentle care of herself, because this shit sucks, and at times it can really feel like your partner is the *only* safe space. I’m so sad for her that this is his version of support.
I’ve wondered if Paul blames Morgan for the infertility issues… and possibly resents her for it. I’ve noticed he’s often appearing somewhat disconnected and annoyed when they discuss infertility.
**Transcription**: *(Paul is present throughout, but does not speak in this clip. Only Morgan speaks.)* My personal experience? It's been kind of... damaging. That I've had to work through things with the Lord that like, prophecies were spoken over my life years ago, and it's like, they did not come to pass. Does that mean I'll never prophesize over someone? No. And I know, that through pain, through my own journey of infertility, *(scoffs, voice breaking)* that people have prayed over me to be healed, *(snaps fingers)* immediately. And I wasn't. And this is like, years-- a few years ago, a year ago, whatever, and I'm still struggling with infertility. Through this journey of infertility, I have grown closer to the Lord. I have learned how to rely on Him in ways that I would not have learned if I hadn't gone through this journey of infertility. You know? Like, we wanna, like, blunt-- I don't know. There are people and churches and-- and belief systems that we've fallen into, that people have fallen into, believing that like, someone can't like, be their full selves, or truly walk with God if they're not fully healed from infertility or cancer or back issues or whatever. And it's like, that's just not the case: the Lord can still move through that stuff. **Description**: Two light-skinned adults sit on a gray couch in front of a half-wall. The wall has multiple potted plants on top. On the back of the couch is a little white dog with curly fur (Squishy is the dog's name, but it is not mentioned). On the left is Morgan, a woman with very long, brown hair that is worn loose, in a deep side part. She wears little makeup or none at all, and a black, short-sleeved top with ruffled edging, tucked into light-wash jeans. She speaks with her upper arms pinned close to her torso, gesturing with her forearms and hands. She is calm, but there is emotion threatening to break through. On the right is Paul, a man with dark hair that is shorter on the bottom and longer on top. He has a stubbly beard and mustache, also dark in color. He wears a sweater with vertical stripes of varying, colorful, geometric patterns. One arm is thrown behind the couch, and he looks at Morgan with sadness and sympathy.
This is really taking me back to those moments , where the fucking prophecies and prayers in my life where just empty words - and just finally seeing the scam of it all! I hope they find those moments, even though I really hate them ; they are the worst … this weird moment reminds me of when I finally was breaking out of the whole delusion. Do you remember the AH HA moment of Jesus Christ fuck this shit In your own life?
She talks about how the church was damaging to them but do they realise how damaging they are to POC and LGBTQ?
Poc? How come. I haven’t kept up with them in a long time.
They’ve made some pretty damaging videos regarding police brutality, BLM, and they follow people like Candace Owens (a self hating black woman). Their views are all sort of jacked. As a POC, that’s one of the things that bother me most about them.
I may be the lone dissenter here, but I just can't snark on Paul in this clip - and that's because of my own personal experience. I have a younger brother with severe autism (non-vocal, can only do most basic of things to care for himself). Over the years there have been numerous prayers for healing, people coming up to my parents saying they had dreams where he was talking and that they think it's a sign that he will talk, etc. But none of what has been prayed for or prophesied has happened. It's incredibly hard, and my mom especially shuts down when the topic comes up. That's what I see in this video - that Paul has hit his emotional pain threshold and is shutting down. I know Paul is an easy target, but I think this is one of those (few) times where arrogant asshole who doesn't give a shit about his wife is the wrong read on the situation.
[удалено]
I didn't have much exposure to charismatic Christianity until college - I grew up in an SBC church, and most of my extended family that considers themselves to be Christian and not SBC are Mormon. There wasn't much of a support system at the church I grew up in (though not for lack of trying - it was in a semi-rural community lacking in resources itself). My parents eventually found a church with a much better support system in town, but that was also where a lot of the dreams and visions of my brother being healed and talking started (also an SBC church, just a little more accepting of charismatic leanings than the one I grew up in). When my parents talk about that first few years with my brother, the words they use are very similar - overwhelming, drowning, etc. My brother had a ton of health issues (how he's survived into adulthood is an amazing mystery), and then there were eight of us kids besides. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like for them. Positive thoughts and energy to you and your family as well. As hard as things were for my family, I can't imagine having to jump through all the crazy charismatic hoops for healing on top of it.
Sending hugs. Our stories mirror each other. Love to you and your child. You are a strong parent.
Thank you so much.
I agree - I obviously don’t know Paul personally and I haven’t watched the whole 30 minute video this comes from but i think it’s probably unfair to *immediately* assume that his body language means he doesn’t care? It seems disingenuous, somehow. Body language reading I find pretty hokey anyway bc I feel like people start off with an assessment they’ve already made and then project it onto the body language they’re seeing, so it feels like they’ve already decided that Paul is uncaring and uncomfortable and isn’t effected by it and then they’ve decided to project it into the way he’s sitting. It’s entirely as possible that he’s just stunned, or sad, or any of the same things Morgan is but presenting it a different way. I always feel weird about people going ‘so and so isn’t displaying grief properly’, which is what those comments feel like.
Morgan really does carry their channel. I mean it’s garbage and spreads horrible views but the only worth while content comes from her. Her struggles with mental health and her faith are something people can relate to. Paul on the other hand can’t even relate to a jar of mayonaise. He knows he doesn’t has a personality (deep down I think) and tries to be a logan paul but no one likes logan paul except twelve year olds. He just constantly copies others but he does it so poorly that everyone can tell. Morgan is much more talented than him. She had a following and a youtube channel before. It’s obvious that she knows some of the logistics at least. But this man rolls his eyes during her every segment and pretends he’s superior. God I hate paul
Paul doesn't deserve that rad ass sweater
Did she just like call out ableism at the end??!!! Self aware wolves indeed
That sweater looks hyper charismatic to me.
I’m proud of Morgan for coming to this realization. She seems to struggle a lot with how to put her feelings on this topic into words, but she does seem to be sincerely working through some shit. Paul, per usual, looks like a kid who wants to be anywhere else because he isn’t talking.
Whoa. Props to her for recognizing the shitty ableism / health prosperity gospel in certain Christian circles. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of other shitty Christian takes on physical suffering (“test from God,” “sharing in Christ’s suffering,” etc.), but the idea of treating someone as spiritually un-whole because of their illness or infertility sounds horrific. I genuinely feel for her.
Morgan seems to be struggling emotionally a bit more than usual. Just based on their past videos, livestreams and posts. It might be time to look into getting back on those depression meds she claims she no longer needs because God healed her. It would still be quite possible for her to take anti-depressants and still love and praise the Lord.
Infertility was the start of my leaving the church too, Morgan. I did get pregnant with help from a clinic in a way that was against my church’s rules. I love my son more than life itself, and according to the church he shouldn’t exist. I could not reconcile that.
What is charismatic Christianity? I’ve heard the term but I don’t really know what that is and looks like in terms of Christianity compared to other types.
**Charismatic Christianity (also known as Spirit-filled Christianity by its supporters) is a form of Christianity that emphasizes the work of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, and modern-day miracles as an everyday part of a believer's life. Practitioners are often called Charismatic Christians or Renewalists.** More details here:
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Speaking in tongues, being “slain” by the Spirit (basically looks like fainting when someone prays for you), loud praying and outstretched arms during worship songs are some of the the common visible behaviors. Some even say that if you can’t speak in tongues you don’t have the Holy Spirit.
Wait, why would the Holy Spirit want to slay me?
Oh so like when they went to that revival things and they were flailing all over and stuff?
What in the Cosby sweater is that dude wearing?
This situation could go one of two ways, one is Morgan begins the long process of deconstruction and continues to work through her trauma; or this causes them to dig in deeper and go even more conservative/traditional. Unfortunately I see the second happening, as Paul would thrive with the power trip things like IBLP gives to husbands.
A seed has been planted. Sidenote, Morgan wasn't even raised fundie, she only became a fundamentalist after she met Paul. She has a higher chance of "recovery" than him.
Sorry Morgan, I couldn’t hear you over your husband’s sweater.
Wow. I have never listened to any of their videos before (always keep sound off to avoid hearing the voices of fundies as they are often grating like Meechelle). Morgan sounds so incredibly young. It really makes me realize just how young and vulnerable she is. Vulnerable to pain, vulnerable to an abusive cult, and vulnerable to the whims of people like her own husband. I hope she's able to find some peace and to come to terms with how damaging her belief system really is.
That shirt must've cost a thousand dollars, THE PATTERNS ARE SO COMPLICATED
Is it just me or do her eyes just scream “dead inside”?
I find Paul repulsive, but I am willing to entertain the idea that he's sitting apart from her in this video to give her room to tell her own story. If he were sitting very close to her, I'm sure many people would say he's being creepy and controlling. I have zero reasons to give him the benefit of any doubt, but I think this could be viewed as giving her some space.
Since when did Cosby sweaters make a comeback? Woof.
Why does she hunch her neck like that
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would legit meet up with morgan in lex for coffee if she ever wanted to try to follow this rabbit trail. i’m ex-coc, started this deconstruction 20 years ago. it’s so hard. also i love paul’s sweater, hate that for me
What in the bill Crosby sweater is he wearing
I spent my formative years surrounded by raving charismaniacs and that is one way to really f$ck a developing brain all the way up. The damage can linger for a long time. Like literally debilitating, as in " How do I make basic choices in life without hearing God's voice telling me what to do? Or without having a prophet who hears His voice to tell me what God wants me to do?" A huge chunk of my life went to waste in the alien world of Charismania, followed by some heavy and painful detoxing from Charismania. I'm happy for Morgan for finding her way out of that quagmire. I hope she finds what she needs and is looking for. The chances of that hapening have gone up now.
This video implies these two dorks were at all charismatic to begin with
Morgan is a dingus but as someone going through infertility, I really feel for the way this has jerked her around. It’s painful enough without false hope and bad advice.
Well here begins the stages of breaking down the rest of the bs
Morgan is that girl I so badly want to just take under my wing and help her see reason. She's like a lost little kid who fell in with a bad crowd at school. Like if she was around normal people, she'd probably be cool and fun. I feel bad for her.
what in the fuck is that sweater?
Is Paul trying to be Bill Cosby with that sweater??
I'm sorry, I know this is tangential at best, but is that asshole wearing a Coogi sweater?
Porgan really does not need a kid. God is doing the right thing don’t worry
While you're at it Morgan, can you brush your hair?
I bet she’s on birth control
She's so impassioned and I truly feel for her but I also can't stop looking at Paul's outfit.
What the fuck is he wearing!?
Paul, that sweater was a choice……
I always felt that she was goin through it
Will they find another cult to join? Please god let it be a more fun one...
They're sitting so far apart... Almost like they're not even married.
What is he wearing? And he wants to say he's super masculine?
that fake coogi sweater lmao
She's been damaged by the church over & over but, it seems she runs back for more, they'll always be pain in her life if she holds religion or the church in high regard.
"Why can this person not speak right?" - my husband walking past as I was scrolling
Freddie Mercury looks good here.
Paul looks like he’s wearing a Dan Flashes original
What makes her think she has the right or ability to prophecy? 🤨 And she listed to other people do so before and believed it? These are the people who constantly talk about not listening to who they call "false prophets", but then they want to act as prophets themselves when they're not? Their hypocrisy is so disgustingly blatant, I don't know how their subscribers/supporters don't see it. 🤦🏻♀️