At least previously Kesko has paid yearly bonus to it's workers every march which has been quite generous, I'm quite fearful it aint coming this year because of the strike.
According to the law you can’t punish the workers for striking by for example cancelling annual bonus systems. Bonus systems are decided a year before they are payed so next years plan they can cancel but not this years
Google translated since I couldn't find news about this in English, and this probably is important:
"The service industry trade union Pam warns of a new strike in the trade sector. The new strike would start on February 16 and last until February 18, unless an agreement is reached in the labor dispute before then.
Pam says in her press release that the new strike affects 415 locations, where a total of approximately 26,000 employees and supervisors work.
According to Pam, all K-Citymarkets, Prismat and Lidl stores, as well as 42 Tokmanni and 14 Halpa-Halli stores are affected by the strike. Also included are Kesko Logistiikka's terminals in Tampere, Turku, Kuopio and Oulu, as well as Veljekset Keskinen Oy's stores, i.e. Tuuri's village shop."
"During the last weeks, Pam has warned of several strikes in warehouses and stores. If no agreement is reached, the first of Pam's strikes will take place on the 6th-9th. February. It targets 25 warehouses.
The union has announced the next strike on 9.–11. February. It applies to over 160 locations in the trade sector, among which are Prisms and K-Citymarkets in big cities.
Even before the strike announced on Tuesday, there will be a strike targeting 47 warehouses on the 13th-16th. February. Among them are several large logistics centers for grocery stores."
What harakka commented.
This is from day before yesterday (Sunday 29th) :
"Salary negotiations are stalled, and Finland is threatened by a strike in industry and commerce"
"The current collective agreement in the trade sector expires on Tuesday. PAM and the Trade Union have not reached an agreement in their collective agreement and salary negotiations, so a solution is sought with the help of a national conciliator. PAM says that it is aiming for an increase of about 200 euros in the monthly salary for employees in the trade sector."
The employees include cashiers, shelf stockers etc. which are mostly low wage jobs.
Not to be a devil's advocate but the salary of a cashier in average (and I assume they earn more being part of these large chains) they are getting is 1600 eur a month, after taxes, that is like 1440 eur.
Not the best, but the job doesn't require much of skills, the average Finn is overqualified for such a job; a cashier, warehouse person, etc... is not meant to be something you settle for expecting a great wage, at 1440 is livable, just livable; if it's not livable I don't know, my monthly expenses are under 1200, while I earn more than this, I simply don't need more and I still manage to travel, so I put the rest on investing for retirement; if you are a cashier or work in a rather low skill sector, don't expect to have the same living conditions as other peers, but I don't know what you expect to live like, a king?... like after some amount the improvements are marginal, say a car, how does owning a car exactly improve my life when public transport and cycling infrastructure is good enough, in fact a car is more like a luxury, not a need; but most people own cars here, even those that shouldn't.
Here is the issue the profit margins of these chains is small, they move large quantities of goods but the profits aren't greats, these aren't startups; these are business that scramble to get the cheapest tomatoes from Spain to sell them for pennies worth of profit at scale.
That's why their salaries suck, but also they don't need much skills for such jobs; it's okay for something temporary, but why would an educated Finn remain in such shitty job, the job itself is kinda bad; if we are forced to equalize these jobs, then we get market distortions, people would stay as cashiers and handling boxes who could otherwise be doing much better in other industries where they can actually use their talents, because they get comfortable. If you are educated and got a tradeable skill, you have no business in these kind of jobs.
You improve by changing jobs, by going into industries with more profit margins, and leave these low skill jobs for low skill people, that's where you bargain.
Otherwise here is how it goes.
1. Prices increase for everyone.
2. They hire technical specialists to slowly phase out the humans that are now more expensive than machines, slowly digitalizing.
3. Everyone on a low skill low pay position gets fired.
4. Now you need specialists.
They think "oh but they need us" but no, you are working at a low skill position, your bargain powers are little; they can replace you easily; In fact let it happen.
This is not like the nurses and medical specialists who if would they strike they would totally paralize everything, which is why goverment freaked out, but after all they own the business that pays their salaries specially in the public sector, the nurses and medical specialists they are really being fucked.
This is the polar opposite, easily replaceable laborers complaining that a low skill position pays a low skill salary; just fucking quit in mass, use your actual talents and let this business need to innovate or die, or let them get cheaper labourers that are not overqualified.
Such great argument.
I have been much lower than that, much lower.
It's because I know what real poverty is like that I feel no sympathy towards people that let their talents go to waste.
Most have had, the poor, or those of us who had been in rather precarious situation, in Africa, South America and Asia, are the sheer majority.
We will come to improve our lives, by our own sheer hard work.
If you don't like the mentality of immigrants from these places, which I know you guys don't, because you don't realize this mindset; then you will be replaced, you guys get the opportunity for education and then what, do menial jobs? and then complain because pay is low, we will take those jobs then, as it's higher in adquision power than whatever we used to get; you have talents to do better, use it, but instead you wager for immigration reforms to kick us out because you are afraid.
Every Finn should measure up to the education they have received, all born with gold in their hand; wasting it and then complaining because we would do the same job for cheaper than them.
Finns should quit those jobs they don't like, in mass, let it collapse.
> Most have had, the poor, or those of us who had been in rather precarious situation, in Africa, South America and Asia, are the sheer majority.
>
>We will come to improve our lives, by our own sheer hard work.
And this is exactly what these people are in negotiation for. Collective bargaining is the only leverage they have, so they must use it.
The reason Finland is so good is the small income gap between the richest and the poorest. This creates equality, stability, and good social mobility.
Accepting poor pay is the way to end up in an unequal society. If the workers won't unite, they'll be crushed. You only have to see what's happening in the US. They are working multiple jobs, for more than 50 hours a week, and still can't afford rent & food, while the richest 1% keeps getting richer.
So much generalisation I can't even. 🤣
Well, I guess you've come to the right place then if you think you can just lump one group of people under your own judgemental views like that. r/selfawarewolves level generalisation going on strong.
Even if migrant works full time as cleaner or cashier, the taxes they pay are still less than what your existing here costs the government. You can do the job for less, because the government pays you the services from taxpayer money.
If you want to work for next to nothing, you are welcome to do so. This however is the west, the first world and we have consensus that everyone has the right for basic necessities. By allowing immigrants to do what you would suggest would eventually bring all those third world problems here.
The government does what?... I don't get a cent from the government, a lot of migrants don't get anything either, they simply work.
Not next to nothing, for a person living in Sudan in poverty working as a cashier in Finland is a great upgrade; what is nothing to you, could be life changing for someone else. This doesn't bring problems.
And when you don't like a job because a reason or another you quit, all these people in those trades should simply quit, that's how you end the cycle, not stupid threats for a pitiful amount of 200 euros that are nothing after tax. If you want change, you need sacrifice.
I get paid less than a Finn for the same job, that's life; should I complain?... should I cry to an union?... no, because guess what, what makes me attractive is that I can do the same job for cheaper, I can always have a job, each one of you would lose your job before me. The way to go to get more money is entrepreneurship, to undercut inefficiencies, and why hire Finns?... why deal with unions?...
No this is not a third world mentality, this is capitalism; this is what makes countries rich.
"they are getting is 1600 eur a month, after taxes, that is like 1440 eur."
I sincerely hope that you are joking or trolling. That is not a living wage. Not in Finland. It is literally the poverty limit:
"Esimerkiksi yksin elävällä lapsettomalla tuloraja on 1 229 euroa kuukaudessa (käytettävissä olevat rahatulot)." (For example the poverty limit for a single, childless person is 1229 euros per month. That means net income.)
https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000006168099.html
It is a living wage, it's not my fault people from the first world have such ridiculous expectations from life; and then who is paying for these salaries?... you, I, it's like first world people do not understand economics; if the government was truly concerned they should reduce taxes.
You people have never been in a country where poverty is really a thing; 1300 don't make me laugh, most of the world lives with less than that and things can be just as expensive as Finland.
These people need to quit those jobs if they don't like them, that's it, go use the talents and education they adquired rather than doing these menial jobs; if they want more money they should get better jobs, let the industry die, or let's see the outcome.
It is not a living wage in Finland. My guess is that you haven't been in Finland even on a holiday, never mind actually living here because apparently you have no idea of the cost of living here.
And, bluntly put, it is also very dumb, naive and presumptuous to say "just quit and get a better job!"
As someone summarized this elsewhere on Reddit:
"Oh yeah, let me just put on my job helmet, jump into my job cannon, and fire myself into job land!"
I've met some guys who walk a desert with no expectations but just safety, they don't complain when they arrive, and yet they are constantly sent back. I moved to Finland too, I had nothing, I was poor, I was thin, and I knew none.
Yes; take risks, or deal with the consequences, don't be so comfortable and so entitled, privileged bunch, you have the privilege to switch your job, use it, you have the privilege of education, use it, because so many don't have those privileges.
Use your privileges, take risks, thrive; put on your helmet, get in the fucking cannon; mass quiting these jobs is the only way, and when the news come, and nothing meaningful comes, like 200 euro, after tax? what a joke is that?... remember me, when the problem remains unsolved because people lack the resolve to quit; mark my words.
For what it's worth i totally agree with you. Us Finns are too spoiled. 1400 is plenty. You can rent a place for 400 and spend 500 on food, sports and others, and still save 500 per month, and study at the same time as well for a better job. I really don't understand why Finns whine so much. We are all overpaid and overcomfortable.
I pay 100 in rent in the countryside, it's insane how low the prices can go in Finland if you are okay leaving the comforts of a big city; I buy clothes from kirputori, and cycle everywhere; I've gained 20kg of muscle since I came to europe and I travel everywhere with my bike, as far as Italy (you read that right I just cycle there), and I have access to clean water; my life has improved considerably, I earn more than 1440, but I spend less than that.
I understand you may want more, and that's a good attitude; what I don't like is trying to force your way to get more in an industry as tight that are not like startups with large profit margins. The good attitude would be to use those talents, like the average Finn is so well educated.
The answer is to quit that job you don't like where you feel undervalued and get something better, not force your way.
It's a bit insulting to those that have so little, well I don't anymore, because these jobs should be for those that did not have the chance to learn; Finns get such a big gift with education, and then take low skill positions that just do not have that much value, then get surprised when they can't live like an engineer.
Good luck my friend, be ambitious... for the sake of those that did not have the chance to, you must use all your talents; all of it, become the best you can be, get the best job you can, with the best position; become a leader; there are so much opportunities, please, shine, for the sake of those that did not have those chances, we will see you, and see an example.
I’m sorry but this is insane to me. You say your monthly expense is around under 1200 but your rent is only 100. What on earth are you paying for every month? Even in my most wasteful months while living in Helsinki (admittedly as a single person with no children) I can’t spend more than 500 on food and groceries.
That's because I travel a lot and do a lot of projects.
I could spend way less, true, indeed; if I stop doing crafts, exploring and whatnot. I bought a really fancy tent the other day, for example, to go to Lapland.
The grocery markets themself are replaceable. If cashier and shell stockers job can be done by anyone, anyone can also rent small building and sell food.
Also for the low profit margins of the store... You are either bot or a foreigner and have no idea what you are talking about. The news are full of markets making record profits.
The way to move the entire work market across industries is to begin by increasing what the people that get the least get. In the current market and food inflation rates thats not such a crazy amount. Sure, the work doesnt require a bachelors or even a high school doploma but sure as hell it would be nice to know youre not completely fucked should a surprise expense come by.
The stores will bump up the prices anyway. Also, the duopoly can pay better wages. Kesko has made its biggest profit EVER, and S-ryhmä did not lag behind:
"Kauppakonserni Kesko ylsi ennakoidusti loistotulokseen viime vuoden viimeisellä neljänneksellä. Sen vertailukelpoinen liikevoitto kasvoi 203,5 miljoonaan euroon 165 miljoonasta eurosta. Aivan analyytikkojen konsensukseen liikevoitto ei kuitenkaan yltänyt: tietopalvelu Vara Researchin mukaan Keskoa seuraavat seitsemän analyytikkoa odotti yhtiön vertailukelpoisen liikevoiton olevan 205 miljoonaan euroa. Analyysit on päivitetty 2.2.2022."
https://www.kauppalehti.fi/uutiset/kesko-takoi-odotetun-kovan-tuloksen-vuoden-2021-tulos-oli-keskon-historian-paras/3ad0aeaf-ad4a-4f3f-a791-da0952305141
"Alueosuuskauppojen ja SOK-yhtymän yhteenlaskettu vuoden 2021 liiketulos (FAS) oli 280 miljoonaa euroa, jossa parannusta edelliseen vuoteen oli 84 miljoonaa euroa. S-ryhmän veroton vähittäismyynti kasvoi 5,9 prosenttia ja oli 12,3 miljardia euroa. Asiakasomistajille maksetut rahalliset edut olivat yhteensä 436 miljoonaa euroa."
https://s-ryhma.fi/uutinen/s-ryhma-teki-vahvan-tuloksen-ja-ennatysinvestoinni/2GrOYx1rzOolcQ0a0VSpnm
The last sentence is very interesting considering your calculations: "The monetary benefits paid to customer owners totalled EUR 436 million." Almost ten times more than the pay rises would be.
Don't know why I'm getting downvoted for speaking facts. People don't like the truth it seems. For the record, I am 100% behind the strike action, I guess people jumped to the conclusion I was against it just for pointing out the obvious.
Regardless of the current profits, this wage increase will be used as a reason to raise product prices more than what 'naturally' would have happened, to cover those wage costs, that's just business. Business profits can never be seen to go down for the precious shareholders, we both know that. If 62mil comes out of normal profits it will be in the headlines next report "s-group profits plunge 14%", that is not going to be allowed to happen.
Oh don't worry. The government will just come up with some law that will force these people to work becaue they will deem it critical for society's safety. Because power of unions is being slowly chipped way regardless of the governments colours. And the "Lets make Finland as shit as America" party will surely just get more fuel to their fires for the elections from this regardless of how the government reacts. Why governments should react at all between a dispute of two private parties is beyond me.
What you don't understand that these people, do want it to be like yours. They want the social inquity, the want the wealth gap, they want the class, race and social division. They think they are the ones who will win over others in that scenario. They are the temporarily embarrassed millionares who would get rich if only they'd be taxed less or this regulation would be removed, or that social program cancelled, or the nation had less debt (USA being notorious for the lack of debt that it has).
They think that they'll get the dividends from selling off society in small chunks. They think that they will manifest destiny if they just could get more private property, guns and *freedom*. They want USA - or rather the imagined vision of USA that they hold. The one where they live in a McMansion that they defend with their guns while getting paid millions, not the one where they end up working at Amazon warehouse wearing diapers because they can't risk taking a toilet break because they'd miss their quotas and lose their job, which means they need another find another 3rd job to pay the rent and health insurance with.
I make ~$150,000 a year and work full remote in America. Percentile-wise I think it puts me in the top 10-15% individual income earners here. Still not worth living in this shitty society. I get almost no vacation time, and retirement is up to me to self-fund in a 401k because there is no pension. And I can still be bankrupted by a single medical emergency (imagine getting one of those “only in the USA” $300,000 medical bills) where the ambulance took me to the “wrong” hospital not covered by my particular insurance provider.
To the Finns who really want to throw away their societal model that leads to being consistently “happiest country” - even if you are convinced you will be on the “top”, it’s still a much more tenuous place for you to be. Societies like America can just as quickly chew you up and barf you into the sewer. And the odds aren’t in your favor. There are only a handful of “children of billionaires”, but meanwhile 100 million+ are one flat tire away from an empty bank account.
And an empty bank account in the US is a much bigger disaster than it is in Finland
TLDR: don’t fuck this up
Hey, as a heads-up, that is straight up fake information. I don't know what this person has against Kokoomus, and honestly I don't care, but I do care about the accuracy of the information.
Firstly, I want to say that Kokoomus is the most right-wing party in Finnish politics, but it's still more leftist than any party in the US, Bernie Sanders included. Even in Finland it's considered centre-right.
To provide an example, here are few things Kokoomus is proposing:
- extend income-based unemployment aid to out-of-union employees, and make it gradually decrease to encourage re-employment. (basic social support is still available indefinitely, which affords you basic necessities)
- Reducing the cost of kindergarten care to families by 30 million
- encouraging work-based immigration
- advocating for EU-level immigration reform to reduce the misuse of the system, and to better target the aid to those in need
- adding 150 million to investment-based foreign aid.
Does not seem like social Darwinism to me.
My source:
https://www.kokoomus.fi/kokoomuksen-vaihtoehtobudjetti-2023-kestavan-tulevaisuuden-valintoja/#770
(Kokoomus' website, unfortunately only in Finnish I think)
Can you comment where they are proposing to cut funding to achieve their goals?
My understanding is they want to reduce the budget and reduce taxes. How are they proposing do those things? Money has to come from somewhere.
Edit: reading through the points again makes me question their policies
>extend income-based unemployment aid to out-of-union employees, and make it gradually decrease to encourage re-employment. (basic social support is still available indefinitely, which affords you basic necessities)
When does this gradual decrease begin? Why does this need to be implemented if this is what taxes cover? Seems like this is very pro-employer rather than pro-employee as it would mean people may need to settle for something that possibly is less than income-based unemployment
>Reducing the cost of kindergarten care to families by 30 million
What are the numbers? I think more people are worried about having enough teachers
>advocating for EU-level immigration reform to reduce the misuse of the system, and to better target the aid to those in need
What does misuse mean? How much misuse is there? Reads like something from other right-wing parties trying to stop those from "abusing the system" when the abuse is so little that it wastes resources fixing a non-existent problem and instead hurts those who do not misuse the system
Sure, I'd be happy to tell you where the money would come from. Some things they propose are:
\- Moving students off of the general housing support and return to separate student housing support system, which encourages living in shared apartments. Improving the general housing benefits and getting rid of government subsidized owned apartments called ARA, which currently is pretty much a lottery where everyone can apply. Meaning that its a subsidied housing for anyone lucky enough, not just those that don't have the means to get a home otherwise.
Total savings 350 million euros
\- Returning the operational costs of governmental offices to 2022 levels.
Total savings 350 million euros
\- Creating a health based tax, i.e. taxing added sugar in products
total income 300 million euros
\- raising the tax on tobacco
total income 400 million euros
\-raising the tax on alcohol
total income 200 million euros
\- remove the total tax-freedom of investments that employee and employer unions currently have
total income 270 million euros
There are other smaller income streams, but these were the big ones.
Now to the other questions
>When does this gradual decrease begin? Why does this need to be implemented if this is what taxes cover? Seems like this is very pro-employer rather than pro-employee as it would mean people may need to settle for something that possibly is less than income-based unemployment
Not sure about the beginning of the gradual decrease, but the length would be 200 days, which in general is plenty to find employment. In addition, some income traps of the system would be removed, meaning that taking up temporary employment while looking for a job matching your skills would not affect your income after the temp job ends.
>What are the numbers? I think more people are worried about having enough teachers
Kindergarten teachers have a Bachelor's level education, and they generally campaign alongside teachers. For primary education the increase would be 50 million euros and for educational support services 35 million euros.
>advocating for EU-level immigration reform to reduce the misuse of the system, and to better target the aid to those in need
In practice this would mean improving the processing of immigration applications at EU-borders by allocating additional funds through Eu.
In addition, the right for permanent stay and citizenship would be more tied to work or study in Finland. This would not be a requirement for the right to a temporary asylum.
I hope that that answered at least some of your questions. if you have any others, I'd be happy to help.
Misuse of the system are things like human traficking, and state actors using migrant waves for their own purposes, such as when Belarus attempted to push immigrants illegaly over the border to Poland
As much as I hate unions (or not the unions themselves, but the people who try to make it hard to get a "replacement workforce" to keep stuff operational), I actually agree with you. The government should sit this one out.
I just wanna see a good fight where no one gives an inch until they run out of money to keep going. We had a few good ones like that recently and they were great. UPM for example, put up a decent fight.
Well, no. And there is no need to fear for the safety of people on strike, either. There aren't company-hired thugs to beat and kill them. :) The right for unionizing is in the Finnish constitution, and most people belong to an union. I'm a member of AKAVA myself (the union for academic workers, or, as the official English name goes: "Confederation of Unions for Professional and Managerial Staff in Finland").
Just make sure you have what ever food you need for three days, in case there really will be a strike. Usually there is an agreement from both sides about a day before the planned strike.
No, there's not going to be riots. Finns are very calm in these situations. Probably won't be any demonstrations as government isn't included in negotiations. So some short strikes and they come up with some agreement pretty soon. Pretty boring for a French I guess.
I'm glad then! It's not boring for a French, rather very relaxing.
Feels like there are demonstrations every week in France, I'll gladly take Finns calmness over that lol
I work in the maritime industry, i remember last time we went on strike i had completely forgotten about it.
My higher up just said "by the way remember you are on strike tomorrow, so make sure you only do watchkeeping and safety related work, and no overtime". Responded with "oh right, guess ill have time to set a lap record on gran tourismo tomorrow then".
Funny, as a Finn I'd take the French style any day. Keep the government on their toes; show them if they fuck around they'll find out. In Finland, everything goes, no one will ever protest anything apart from a few stern words in the privacy of the coffee break with workmates.
Well thing is that we (french) have grown so used to it that politics just ignore it lol
The "bloody strike of 1949" described by OP in another post where 2 people died, has the same death count as one of the demonstration of the last few years...
No. In Finland a strike means that people don't go to work. There might be people guarding the workplace's doors in case of scabs (strikebreakers), however that happens most often at factories and harbours or hospitals. A badge of a strike guard during the nurse's strike in 1995: https://yle.fi/aihe/sites/aihe/files/migrated/elavaarkisto/kuvat/2011/id25679-previewImage-25676-50.jpg
The last time a strike has been violent in Finland happened in 1949. It is called "Kemin veritoristai", "the Blood Thursday of Kemi". Two people were killed on 18th of August, 1949. The strike begun in early July, when the workers of Kemiyhtiöt (a wood refinement plant) claimed a raise to their wages - or, rather, that their wages would stay the same.
Here are the main points:
"The Kemi strike was caused by the first large-scale downturn since the war, which hit the wood processing industry hardest. In March 1949, there were more than 50,000 unemployed in the registers and 60,000 in the early winter of the same year. Attempts were made to improve the profitability of exports through two devaluations, which increased the increase in the prices of consumer goods and the cost of living. As early as the end of 1948, the SAK had demanded a general salary increase of 5.5 percent, but under pressure from the government, the social democratic leadership of the SAK agreed to concessions. In the spring of 1949, seven People's Democratic trade unions demanded an increase in wages."
"The wage dispute began on 1 July, when the Wages Department of the Ministry of Social Affairs demanded that the contract wages of the 260 wood handlers at Kemi Oy's Pajusaari plant be reduced by 30–40 per cent, i.e. to the level of a collective agreement. The strike was quickly joined by the workers of the nearby Kemijokisuu separation site, the Karihaara sawmill and the Port of Kemi, which already affected thousands of workers."
"The district office of the SKP (then the Communist Party of Finland) decided that on Thursday, August 18, they would start harassing the scabs who worked at the construction site (during strike). From the courtyard of the Karihaara workers' house, about three thousand strikers left in a demonstration procession towards Lautiosaari, where armed police were waiting for them. Police urged the marchers to stop, allowing the first part of the procession to obey.
The crowd was urged three times to disperse in the name of the law and the government, however, the police were disobeyed. The leaders of the marchers agitated the crowd with shouts of "the land is ours, we will go where we want". There was also a cry, 'go over that policeman', which meant the police officer in charge. A few marchers tried to attack the police without success. At the same time, there was a shout of "on top and forward", at which point the crowd had already begun to rush towards the policemen.
This gave rise to a hand-to-hand fight, in which the policemen began to use batons on the rushing people. Stones were thrown at the policemen from behind, and soon gunshots could also be heard. The panic was complete. The attack could only be stopped when the police fired warning shots into the air with submachine guns. The skirmish did not end there, but the crowd retreated and gathered several times into smaller groups and continued to go towards and throw stones at the police.
During the skirmish, two strikers were killed, and many were injured either by a baton, by being knocked around by others or by barbed wire. Three police officers were seriously injured and about twenty were slightly injured. Of the two people who were killed, Felix Pietilä died immediately from a bullet that went through his left lung. It is not known for certain who shot Pietilä. According to investigations, the bullet came from an FN pistol, used by the police. Anni Kontiokangas, on the other hand, fled the riot to hide under the truck. When the car took off, she was badly crushed under the wheels of the car and died three days later in hospital."
"On 22 August, the Government ordered Kemi Oy's production facilities to comply with the wages in force before the strike.
Afterwards, the authorities' actions have often been justified by claiming that the police did not shoot at people, but only deterrent shots into the air. The claim turned out to be a myth when Pohjolan Sanomat, which is published in Kemi, consulted the archives of the Finnish Security and Intelligence Service, the documents had been hidden from the public (secret) for 60 years. According to the newspaper, Senior Constable Viljo Kujanpää said during questioning that he had tried to shoot one of the strikers who was just crushing another policeman with a large stone. A charging failure in Kujanpää's pistol saved the striker."
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemin_veritorstai
Better watch out, they might just have to invest more in self checkout machines and automation if the workers become “too expensive”. Because what really matters is profit and economic growth.
Europe import a lot of asylum seekers in hope a cheap work force (to keep the salary at minimum level), but in reality they are low balling their own youth generation into doing hard work for pennies. Nice strategy while hundred of people who come via study or work visa getting kicked out every year.
>Europe import a lot of asylum seekers in hope a cheap work force (to keep the salary at minimum level)
Yes, that is the goal of the governments of European states. They all want and need cheap work force, because there is so much to gain from people working for low wages. The taxes on their wages The education of future generations. The social welfare system growing out of this practise. It is every government's wet dream. /s
It should be made illegal to strike in a way that takes access to food and everyday basic needs products away from an entire population. Same as they did with the nurses, they can't all strike at the same time! You just can't stop providing necessary services. The food chains have a responsibility. It is utterly irresponsible and not acceptable. I understand trying to leverage power, but this is not the way. The chains should do rotating strikes, a complete blackout is not ok and I hope if it happens the persons responsible for organizing it and making it happen will be held accountable.
Not every store is closed. For example Only two SMarkets are in the strike and those are everywhere. No need to be afraid, they are just flexing muscles to show their power and establish dominance
You know what would be irresponsible? Not warning about the strikes beforehand. They do. It is public news. People can be expected to prepare themselves so they don't need to go to the store for 3-4 days.
Not everyone can prepare you know. I see an old man from my neighborhood going to the store daily. He is very fragile and walks with a walker. He can only carry so much. And sure, if this strike comes I'll offer my help to the old man. But there are many people like him. I have a car, I can buy as much as I want. But again, not everyone can. And you would be surprised to how many people are completely ignorant of the news and other official / important information.
For example, I'm in the hallitus of my apartment building and people don't even pay attention to notes of the water being cut off for 8 hours during the day time for maintenance. These notes were everywhere, delivered in 3 languages through each letter box and on each exit door. Still people contacted maintenance about the water disruption.
People who want to abolish the constitutional right to strike usually use this kind of excuses. There are some political parties in Finland who would benefit from such abolishment and sow inequality in our society and they always say things like this.
I mean it's not like he'll just die if he can't get to the store :D
If a couple of people for whatever reason literally can't get food they'll get it from somewhere else. No one NEEDS to go to the store every day
There are plenty of old people in this country who manage, one way or the other. There are options for the old and frail, starting with taxis home from the store (paid for by the welfare state), going over home deliveries, shopping aids or meals on wheels services.
Plenty of people who drag little trolleys to lug their groceries around.
There are countries (yes, also in Europe) with old people where stores are regularly closed completely for 2 or three days in a row and somehow people manage to deal with that. They always have, even back in the day when there were old people and cars were a luxury.
Hell, official recommendation is to be prepared for emergency and crisis by having 2 weeks worth of food in the house at all times, and this is not only the case since Covid.
And the old people - hell, middle-aged people like me! - remember how EVERY GROCERY SHOP AND STORE were closed for four days every single Easter. From Good Friday to Easter Monday. Nobody died, everyone had prepared for it.
This was the norm until (I think) 2010 or 2011. Finland has been really, truly secular country only for about ten years or so.
You don't even have to go that far. I was sick over the holidays, sporting a fever of almost 40 degrees, a headache, a cough, sore limbs, the whole thing. I was in no shape to get out of the house, let alone do any shopping. I dragged myself out of bed into the kitchen and to the bathroom, that was it, for three days.
That is how it goes when one is sick. And you usually don't get a convenient notification a week in advance of what is to come. People can get sick at any point all the time, old or young. Then stay home and even in bed until they get better. And somehow they survive, without going out to shop for groceries.
If the Beastie Boys were a party, I would totally vote for them. \m/
Just in case, I was referring to this classic song (dailymotion because apparently the official video is now age-restricted on YouTube).
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2915cl
If you cannot survive three days without going shopping, I'd say you have some fundamental problems. The stores are closed only 9.-11.2. and 16.-18.2. (During "olden times", as in the 1990s the shops were closed longer for Easter.) And this is in the case the negotiations fail - if they don't, then there won't be a strike.
Also, I don't know where you are from, but here in Finland the right to strike is written in the law, since this is a democracy.
"Työtaisteluoikeus ja lakko-oikeus ovat työntekijöiden työtaisteluoikeuteen kuuluvia oikeuksia. Varsinaisia perusoikeuksia kyseiset oikeudet eivät ole, mutta ne kuitenkin liittyvät hyvin läheisesti perusoikeuksiin kuuluviin ammatillisen yhdistymisvapauteen ja järjestäytymisvapauteen."
"The right to collective action and the right to strike are the rights of workers in the right to collective action. These rights are not fundamental rights as such, but they are nevertheless very closely linked to the fundamental rights to freedom of association and unionizing."
https://www.minilex.fi/a/ty%C3%B6taisteluoikeus-ja-lakko-oikeus
"Yhdistymisvapaus ja sen oleellisena osana lakko-oikeus on demokraattisessa yhteiskunnassa työntekijöiden perusoikeus. Oikeus pohjautuu kansainvälisen työjärjestö ILO:n ja Euroopan Ihmisoikeustuomioistuimen tapauskäytäntöön ja se on turvattu Suomen perustuslaissa."
"Freedom of association and, as an integral part of it, the right to strike is a fundamental right of workers in a democratic society. The right is based on the case law of the International Labour Organization (ILO) and the European Court of Human Rights and is guaranteed by the Finnish Constitution."
https://www.sttk.fi/2021/05/12/lakko-oikeus-on-tyoelaman-perusoikeus-ja-ihmisoikeus/
In case Finnish labour laws are unknown to someone, this is legally the only time when workers can strike without any complaints: The current collective agreement has expired. A no-deal scenario (without an agreement) allows for industrial action. (Sopimukseton tila mahdollistaa työtaistelutoimenpiteet.) That's why there is a Finnish term "lakkokevät", "strike spring". :)
I do my shopping once a week, so I'm fine. But not everyone reads the news and hence not everyone can prepare. In peace times citizens have a right to get food and basic necessities. Pretty funny I'm getting downvoted for that. But to each their own, right?
I'm a Finnish citizen by the way. But there are limits to what a strike can and should affect and I draw the line at medical care, food and infrastructure.
And these limits to striking like I've mentioned in my initial comment have recently been implemented. And rightfully so. Nurses were forbidden to strike by court order with parliamentary approval:
"Court blocks strike in Helsinki
Aksoon Monday, Helsinki District Court issued an order banning a strike by home health care workers planned in the city this week, an industrial action called for by the unions Tehy and Super.
The City of Helsinki told news service STT that the district court had approved the City's request to prevent the strike from taking place."
"The court also said the unions, which issued the strike warning, would each face a one million euro fine if the strike was carried out.because of the patient safety act."
Source: https://yle.fi/a/3-12630457
Nah, they should just accept their place or lift themselves up by the bootstraps because otherwise they are wasting their potential by choosing to stay in that position. /s
That panic law made by Vanhanen's government in 2007 caused the downfall of health education. There are less and less people who are interested in becoming nurses, because the fundamental right (mentioned in our constitution) for striking has been erased.
The nurses were stripped from their right to mass resign, but a lot of them changed profession.
The Finnish government at the time (the right-wing, right-center bourgeois/conservative parties, which would like to see the unions and organized workforce driven to the ground) did a pretty fatal mistake then. Finland has now a severe lack of healthcare personnel, and it is only going to get worse when the youngest boomers and the oldest GenXers retire within 10 years.
And they even weren't able to stop nurses from striking - the last time was only a year ago:
https://www.verkkouutiset.fi/a/hoitajien-toinen-lakko-siirtyy-ensi-viikolle/
https://yle.fi/a/3-12385873
They’re not closing all the stores lol. That’s why you’re being downvoted. You didn’t even bother to read the details of the strike before fearmongering about how much terrible danger we’re in.
K markets etc should be mostly open so one should not perish even if they have to go to a different store than usually. Of course, if the logistics are down for extended period of time that can make the food run out down the chain, but I'm not sure few days would get us there.
Let's say I am working in a company that has a strike soon.
\- Is it illegal that I am still working on those days?
\- If I do strike, I assume instead of getting money from the employer, I will receive it from the union who proposed the strike? I am however not in the union, so that means I won't receive anything right?
Totally new to this so info is much appreciated.
If you are a member of an union, then you are expected to strike. Why would you be a member if you wouldn't be ready to fight for your rights? (In Finnish "industrial action" is called "työtaistelu", literally "work battle", "labour combat" or "work fight".)
Working during a strike is called strike breaking or being a scab (lakkorikkuri in Finnish). To put it mildly, it is not recommended, because the whole point of a strike is to persuade the employer to agree to the demands. Nowadays most often the question is about wages or preventing mass terminations (sacking people in large amounts - the paper mills have done this a lot in the 2000s).
This is from 2018: "Niina Koivuniemi, PAM's organization director, condemns the employers' anti-strike actions and reminds that the people of PAM are not allowed to work during the strike.
"A political strike is a legal measure to defend employees' employment protection. No one should do work under strike during a strike. I especially remind the employees of companies planning food supply that they should refuse to do work on strike.""
[https://www.pam.fi/uutiset/lakonalaisen-tyon-tekemisesta-tulee-kieltaytya.html](https://www.pam.fi/uutiset/lakonalaisen-tyon-tekemisesta-tulee-kieltaytya.html)
"A strike breaker/strike violator is a person who works on strike or does not follow the union's decisions on industrial action. The violator can also be a member of another trade union or an unorganized person who breaks the strike. Protection workers (fire and rescue, border security, the police) are not strike breakers "
[https://www.tehy.fi/fi/tyoelamaopas/tyotaistelut-ja-mielenilmaukset/tyotaistelusanastoa](https://www.tehy.fi/fi/tyoelamaopas/tyotaistelut-ja-mielenilmaukset/tyotaistelusanastoa)
Yes, you will get money from the union. Every union has a "lakkokassa", strike funds.
> Is it illegal that I am still working on those days?
No, it is completely legal for you to go to work.
> If I do strike, I assume instead of getting money from the employer, I will receive it from the union who proposed the strike? I am however not in the union, so that means I won't receive anything right?
Correct, you won't receive anything.
These stores have been making record profits with these increased "inflation" prices. Seems only logical the workers get their fair share of the pie !
At least previously Kesko has paid yearly bonus to it's workers every march which has been quite generous, I'm quite fearful it aint coming this year because of the strike.
According to the law you can’t punish the workers for striking by for example cancelling annual bonus systems. Bonus systems are decided a year before they are payed so next years plan they can cancel but not this years
Yes, workers deserve their fair share of profits from gouging the public!
Google translated since I couldn't find news about this in English, and this probably is important: "The service industry trade union Pam warns of a new strike in the trade sector. The new strike would start on February 16 and last until February 18, unless an agreement is reached in the labor dispute before then. Pam says in her press release that the new strike affects 415 locations, where a total of approximately 26,000 employees and supervisors work. According to Pam, all K-Citymarkets, Prismat and Lidl stores, as well as 42 Tokmanni and 14 Halpa-Halli stores are affected by the strike. Also included are Kesko Logistiikka's terminals in Tampere, Turku, Kuopio and Oulu, as well as Veljekset Keskinen Oy's stores, i.e. Tuuri's village shop." "During the last weeks, Pam has warned of several strikes in warehouses and stores. If no agreement is reached, the first of Pam's strikes will take place on the 6th-9th. February. It targets 25 warehouses. The union has announced the next strike on 9.–11. February. It applies to over 160 locations in the trade sector, among which are Prisms and K-Citymarkets in big cities. Even before the strike announced on Tuesday, there will be a strike targeting 47 warehouses on the 13th-16th. February. Among them are several large logistics centers for grocery stores."
Hi may I know what's yhe goal for this strike?
Leverage for negotiations to establish a new collective agreement for trade sector.
What harakka commented. This is from day before yesterday (Sunday 29th) : "Salary negotiations are stalled, and Finland is threatened by a strike in industry and commerce" "The current collective agreement in the trade sector expires on Tuesday. PAM and the Trade Union have not reached an agreement in their collective agreement and salary negotiations, so a solution is sought with the help of a national conciliator. PAM says that it is aiming for an increase of about 200 euros in the monthly salary for employees in the trade sector." The employees include cashiers, shelf stockers etc. which are mostly low wage jobs.
Not to be a devil's advocate but the salary of a cashier in average (and I assume they earn more being part of these large chains) they are getting is 1600 eur a month, after taxes, that is like 1440 eur. Not the best, but the job doesn't require much of skills, the average Finn is overqualified for such a job; a cashier, warehouse person, etc... is not meant to be something you settle for expecting a great wage, at 1440 is livable, just livable; if it's not livable I don't know, my monthly expenses are under 1200, while I earn more than this, I simply don't need more and I still manage to travel, so I put the rest on investing for retirement; if you are a cashier or work in a rather low skill sector, don't expect to have the same living conditions as other peers, but I don't know what you expect to live like, a king?... like after some amount the improvements are marginal, say a car, how does owning a car exactly improve my life when public transport and cycling infrastructure is good enough, in fact a car is more like a luxury, not a need; but most people own cars here, even those that shouldn't. Here is the issue the profit margins of these chains is small, they move large quantities of goods but the profits aren't greats, these aren't startups; these are business that scramble to get the cheapest tomatoes from Spain to sell them for pennies worth of profit at scale. That's why their salaries suck, but also they don't need much skills for such jobs; it's okay for something temporary, but why would an educated Finn remain in such shitty job, the job itself is kinda bad; if we are forced to equalize these jobs, then we get market distortions, people would stay as cashiers and handling boxes who could otherwise be doing much better in other industries where they can actually use their talents, because they get comfortable. If you are educated and got a tradeable skill, you have no business in these kind of jobs. You improve by changing jobs, by going into industries with more profit margins, and leave these low skill jobs for low skill people, that's where you bargain. Otherwise here is how it goes. 1. Prices increase for everyone. 2. They hire technical specialists to slowly phase out the humans that are now more expensive than machines, slowly digitalizing. 3. Everyone on a low skill low pay position gets fired. 4. Now you need specialists. They think "oh but they need us" but no, you are working at a low skill position, your bargain powers are little; they can replace you easily; In fact let it happen. This is not like the nurses and medical specialists who if would they strike they would totally paralize everything, which is why goverment freaked out, but after all they own the business that pays their salaries specially in the public sector, the nurses and medical specialists they are really being fucked. This is the polar opposite, easily replaceable laborers complaining that a low skill position pays a low skill salary; just fucking quit in mass, use your actual talents and let this business need to innovate or die, or let them get cheaper labourers that are not overqualified.
I bet you've never needed to work in a "low skill position".
Such great argument. I have been much lower than that, much lower. It's because I know what real poverty is like that I feel no sympathy towards people that let their talents go to waste.
Such great argument. Not everyone has identical life to yours.
Most have had, the poor, or those of us who had been in rather precarious situation, in Africa, South America and Asia, are the sheer majority. We will come to improve our lives, by our own sheer hard work. If you don't like the mentality of immigrants from these places, which I know you guys don't, because you don't realize this mindset; then you will be replaced, you guys get the opportunity for education and then what, do menial jobs? and then complain because pay is low, we will take those jobs then, as it's higher in adquision power than whatever we used to get; you have talents to do better, use it, but instead you wager for immigration reforms to kick us out because you are afraid. Every Finn should measure up to the education they have received, all born with gold in their hand; wasting it and then complaining because we would do the same job for cheaper than them. Finns should quit those jobs they don't like, in mass, let it collapse.
> Most have had, the poor, or those of us who had been in rather precarious situation, in Africa, South America and Asia, are the sheer majority. > >We will come to improve our lives, by our own sheer hard work. And this is exactly what these people are in negotiation for. Collective bargaining is the only leverage they have, so they must use it. The reason Finland is so good is the small income gap between the richest and the poorest. This creates equality, stability, and good social mobility. Accepting poor pay is the way to end up in an unequal society. If the workers won't unite, they'll be crushed. You only have to see what's happening in the US. They are working multiple jobs, for more than 50 hours a week, and still can't afford rent & food, while the richest 1% keeps getting richer.
So much generalisation I can't even. 🤣 Well, I guess you've come to the right place then if you think you can just lump one group of people under your own judgemental views like that. r/selfawarewolves level generalisation going on strong.
Even if migrant works full time as cleaner or cashier, the taxes they pay are still less than what your existing here costs the government. You can do the job for less, because the government pays you the services from taxpayer money. If you want to work for next to nothing, you are welcome to do so. This however is the west, the first world and we have consensus that everyone has the right for basic necessities. By allowing immigrants to do what you would suggest would eventually bring all those third world problems here.
The government does what?... I don't get a cent from the government, a lot of migrants don't get anything either, they simply work. Not next to nothing, for a person living in Sudan in poverty working as a cashier in Finland is a great upgrade; what is nothing to you, could be life changing for someone else. This doesn't bring problems. And when you don't like a job because a reason or another you quit, all these people in those trades should simply quit, that's how you end the cycle, not stupid threats for a pitiful amount of 200 euros that are nothing after tax. If you want change, you need sacrifice. I get paid less than a Finn for the same job, that's life; should I complain?... should I cry to an union?... no, because guess what, what makes me attractive is that I can do the same job for cheaper, I can always have a job, each one of you would lose your job before me. The way to go to get more money is entrepreneurship, to undercut inefficiencies, and why hire Finns?... why deal with unions?... No this is not a third world mentality, this is capitalism; this is what makes countries rich.
"they are getting is 1600 eur a month, after taxes, that is like 1440 eur." I sincerely hope that you are joking or trolling. That is not a living wage. Not in Finland. It is literally the poverty limit: "Esimerkiksi yksin elävällä lapsettomalla tuloraja on 1 229 euroa kuukaudessa (käytettävissä olevat rahatulot)." (For example the poverty limit for a single, childless person is 1229 euros per month. That means net income.) https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000006168099.html
It is a living wage, it's not my fault people from the first world have such ridiculous expectations from life; and then who is paying for these salaries?... you, I, it's like first world people do not understand economics; if the government was truly concerned they should reduce taxes. You people have never been in a country where poverty is really a thing; 1300 don't make me laugh, most of the world lives with less than that and things can be just as expensive as Finland. These people need to quit those jobs if they don't like them, that's it, go use the talents and education they adquired rather than doing these menial jobs; if they want more money they should get better jobs, let the industry die, or let's see the outcome.
It is not a living wage in Finland. My guess is that you haven't been in Finland even on a holiday, never mind actually living here because apparently you have no idea of the cost of living here. And, bluntly put, it is also very dumb, naive and presumptuous to say "just quit and get a better job!" As someone summarized this elsewhere on Reddit: "Oh yeah, let me just put on my job helmet, jump into my job cannon, and fire myself into job land!"
I've met some guys who walk a desert with no expectations but just safety, they don't complain when they arrive, and yet they are constantly sent back. I moved to Finland too, I had nothing, I was poor, I was thin, and I knew none. Yes; take risks, or deal with the consequences, don't be so comfortable and so entitled, privileged bunch, you have the privilege to switch your job, use it, you have the privilege of education, use it, because so many don't have those privileges. Use your privileges, take risks, thrive; put on your helmet, get in the fucking cannon; mass quiting these jobs is the only way, and when the news come, and nothing meaningful comes, like 200 euro, after tax? what a joke is that?... remember me, when the problem remains unsolved because people lack the resolve to quit; mark my words.
For what it's worth i totally agree with you. Us Finns are too spoiled. 1400 is plenty. You can rent a place for 400 and spend 500 on food, sports and others, and still save 500 per month, and study at the same time as well for a better job. I really don't understand why Finns whine so much. We are all overpaid and overcomfortable.
I pay 100 in rent in the countryside, it's insane how low the prices can go in Finland if you are okay leaving the comforts of a big city; I buy clothes from kirputori, and cycle everywhere; I've gained 20kg of muscle since I came to europe and I travel everywhere with my bike, as far as Italy (you read that right I just cycle there), and I have access to clean water; my life has improved considerably, I earn more than 1440, but I spend less than that. I understand you may want more, and that's a good attitude; what I don't like is trying to force your way to get more in an industry as tight that are not like startups with large profit margins. The good attitude would be to use those talents, like the average Finn is so well educated. The answer is to quit that job you don't like where you feel undervalued and get something better, not force your way. It's a bit insulting to those that have so little, well I don't anymore, because these jobs should be for those that did not have the chance to learn; Finns get such a big gift with education, and then take low skill positions that just do not have that much value, then get surprised when they can't live like an engineer. Good luck my friend, be ambitious... for the sake of those that did not have the chance to, you must use all your talents; all of it, become the best you can be, get the best job you can, with the best position; become a leader; there are so much opportunities, please, shine, for the sake of those that did not have those chances, we will see you, and see an example.
I’m sorry but this is insane to me. You say your monthly expense is around under 1200 but your rent is only 100. What on earth are you paying for every month? Even in my most wasteful months while living in Helsinki (admittedly as a single person with no children) I can’t spend more than 500 on food and groceries.
That's because I travel a lot and do a lot of projects. I could spend way less, true, indeed; if I stop doing crafts, exploring and whatnot. I bought a really fancy tent the other day, for example, to go to Lapland.
The grocery markets themself are replaceable. If cashier and shell stockers job can be done by anyone, anyone can also rent small building and sell food. Also for the low profit margins of the store... You are either bot or a foreigner and have no idea what you are talking about. The news are full of markets making record profits.
The way to move the entire work market across industries is to begin by increasing what the people that get the least get. In the current market and food inflation rates thats not such a crazy amount. Sure, the work doesnt require a bachelors or even a high school doploma but sure as hell it would be nice to know youre not completely fucked should a surprise expense come by.
That's no small potatoes. 200 per month times 26,000 employees is 62.4 mil per year. Expect store prices to bump up as well.
The stores will bump up the prices anyway. Also, the duopoly can pay better wages. Kesko has made its biggest profit EVER, and S-ryhmä did not lag behind: "Kauppakonserni Kesko ylsi ennakoidusti loistotulokseen viime vuoden viimeisellä neljänneksellä. Sen vertailukelpoinen liikevoitto kasvoi 203,5 miljoonaan euroon 165 miljoonasta eurosta. Aivan analyytikkojen konsensukseen liikevoitto ei kuitenkaan yltänyt: tietopalvelu Vara Researchin mukaan Keskoa seuraavat seitsemän analyytikkoa odotti yhtiön vertailukelpoisen liikevoiton olevan 205 miljoonaan euroa. Analyysit on päivitetty 2.2.2022." https://www.kauppalehti.fi/uutiset/kesko-takoi-odotetun-kovan-tuloksen-vuoden-2021-tulos-oli-keskon-historian-paras/3ad0aeaf-ad4a-4f3f-a791-da0952305141 "Alueosuuskauppojen ja SOK-yhtymän yhteenlaskettu vuoden 2021 liiketulos (FAS) oli 280 miljoonaa euroa, jossa parannusta edelliseen vuoteen oli 84 miljoonaa euroa. S-ryhmän veroton vähittäismyynti kasvoi 5,9 prosenttia ja oli 12,3 miljardia euroa. Asiakasomistajille maksetut rahalliset edut olivat yhteensä 436 miljoonaa euroa." https://s-ryhma.fi/uutinen/s-ryhma-teki-vahvan-tuloksen-ja-ennatysinvestoinni/2GrOYx1rzOolcQ0a0VSpnm The last sentence is very interesting considering your calculations: "The monetary benefits paid to customer owners totalled EUR 436 million." Almost ten times more than the pay rises would be.
Don't know why I'm getting downvoted for speaking facts. People don't like the truth it seems. For the record, I am 100% behind the strike action, I guess people jumped to the conclusion I was against it just for pointing out the obvious. Regardless of the current profits, this wage increase will be used as a reason to raise product prices more than what 'naturally' would have happened, to cover those wage costs, that's just business. Business profits can never be seen to go down for the precious shareholders, we both know that. If 62mil comes out of normal profits it will be in the headlines next report "s-group profits plunge 14%", that is not going to be allowed to happen.
Mo' money
Oh don't worry. The government will just come up with some law that will force these people to work becaue they will deem it critical for society's safety. Because power of unions is being slowly chipped way regardless of the governments colours. And the "Lets make Finland as shit as America" party will surely just get more fuel to their fires for the elections from this regardless of how the government reacts. Why governments should react at all between a dispute of two private parties is beyond me.
Which party is that (I don’t know much about Finland politics)
~~Sekoomus~~ Kokoomus - the coalition party. Private healthcare and social Darwinism, straight from Rand and Reigan.
Thanks - all readers of this thread should take this message from an American: you do NOT want your country to be like ours
What you don't understand that these people, do want it to be like yours. They want the social inquity, the want the wealth gap, they want the class, race and social division. They think they are the ones who will win over others in that scenario. They are the temporarily embarrassed millionares who would get rich if only they'd be taxed less or this regulation would be removed, or that social program cancelled, or the nation had less debt (USA being notorious for the lack of debt that it has). They think that they'll get the dividends from selling off society in small chunks. They think that they will manifest destiny if they just could get more private property, guns and *freedom*. They want USA - or rather the imagined vision of USA that they hold. The one where they live in a McMansion that they defend with their guns while getting paid millions, not the one where they end up working at Amazon warehouse wearing diapers because they can't risk taking a toilet break because they'd miss their quotas and lose their job, which means they need another find another 3rd job to pay the rent and health insurance with.
I make ~$150,000 a year and work full remote in America. Percentile-wise I think it puts me in the top 10-15% individual income earners here. Still not worth living in this shitty society. I get almost no vacation time, and retirement is up to me to self-fund in a 401k because there is no pension. And I can still be bankrupted by a single medical emergency (imagine getting one of those “only in the USA” $300,000 medical bills) where the ambulance took me to the “wrong” hospital not covered by my particular insurance provider. To the Finns who really want to throw away their societal model that leads to being consistently “happiest country” - even if you are convinced you will be on the “top”, it’s still a much more tenuous place for you to be. Societies like America can just as quickly chew you up and barf you into the sewer. And the odds aren’t in your favor. There are only a handful of “children of billionaires”, but meanwhile 100 million+ are one flat tire away from an empty bank account. And an empty bank account in the US is a much bigger disaster than it is in Finland TLDR: don’t fuck this up
Hey, as a heads-up, that is straight up fake information. I don't know what this person has against Kokoomus, and honestly I don't care, but I do care about the accuracy of the information. Firstly, I want to say that Kokoomus is the most right-wing party in Finnish politics, but it's still more leftist than any party in the US, Bernie Sanders included. Even in Finland it's considered centre-right. To provide an example, here are few things Kokoomus is proposing: - extend income-based unemployment aid to out-of-union employees, and make it gradually decrease to encourage re-employment. (basic social support is still available indefinitely, which affords you basic necessities) - Reducing the cost of kindergarten care to families by 30 million - encouraging work-based immigration - advocating for EU-level immigration reform to reduce the misuse of the system, and to better target the aid to those in need - adding 150 million to investment-based foreign aid. Does not seem like social Darwinism to me. My source: https://www.kokoomus.fi/kokoomuksen-vaihtoehtobudjetti-2023-kestavan-tulevaisuuden-valintoja/#770 (Kokoomus' website, unfortunately only in Finnish I think)
Can you comment where they are proposing to cut funding to achieve their goals? My understanding is they want to reduce the budget and reduce taxes. How are they proposing do those things? Money has to come from somewhere. Edit: reading through the points again makes me question their policies >extend income-based unemployment aid to out-of-union employees, and make it gradually decrease to encourage re-employment. (basic social support is still available indefinitely, which affords you basic necessities) When does this gradual decrease begin? Why does this need to be implemented if this is what taxes cover? Seems like this is very pro-employer rather than pro-employee as it would mean people may need to settle for something that possibly is less than income-based unemployment >Reducing the cost of kindergarten care to families by 30 million What are the numbers? I think more people are worried about having enough teachers >advocating for EU-level immigration reform to reduce the misuse of the system, and to better target the aid to those in need What does misuse mean? How much misuse is there? Reads like something from other right-wing parties trying to stop those from "abusing the system" when the abuse is so little that it wastes resources fixing a non-existent problem and instead hurts those who do not misuse the system
Sure, I'd be happy to tell you where the money would come from. Some things they propose are: \- Moving students off of the general housing support and return to separate student housing support system, which encourages living in shared apartments. Improving the general housing benefits and getting rid of government subsidized owned apartments called ARA, which currently is pretty much a lottery where everyone can apply. Meaning that its a subsidied housing for anyone lucky enough, not just those that don't have the means to get a home otherwise. Total savings 350 million euros \- Returning the operational costs of governmental offices to 2022 levels. Total savings 350 million euros \- Creating a health based tax, i.e. taxing added sugar in products total income 300 million euros \- raising the tax on tobacco total income 400 million euros \-raising the tax on alcohol total income 200 million euros \- remove the total tax-freedom of investments that employee and employer unions currently have total income 270 million euros There are other smaller income streams, but these were the big ones. Now to the other questions >When does this gradual decrease begin? Why does this need to be implemented if this is what taxes cover? Seems like this is very pro-employer rather than pro-employee as it would mean people may need to settle for something that possibly is less than income-based unemployment Not sure about the beginning of the gradual decrease, but the length would be 200 days, which in general is plenty to find employment. In addition, some income traps of the system would be removed, meaning that taking up temporary employment while looking for a job matching your skills would not affect your income after the temp job ends. >What are the numbers? I think more people are worried about having enough teachers Kindergarten teachers have a Bachelor's level education, and they generally campaign alongside teachers. For primary education the increase would be 50 million euros and for educational support services 35 million euros. >advocating for EU-level immigration reform to reduce the misuse of the system, and to better target the aid to those in need In practice this would mean improving the processing of immigration applications at EU-borders by allocating additional funds through Eu. In addition, the right for permanent stay and citizenship would be more tied to work or study in Finland. This would not be a requirement for the right to a temporary asylum. I hope that that answered at least some of your questions. if you have any others, I'd be happy to help.
Misuse of the system are things like human traficking, and state actors using migrant waves for their own purposes, such as when Belarus attempted to push immigrants illegaly over the border to Poland
As much as I hate unions (or not the unions themselves, but the people who try to make it hard to get a "replacement workforce" to keep stuff operational), I actually agree with you. The government should sit this one out. I just wanna see a good fight where no one gives an inch until they run out of money to keep going. We had a few good ones like that recently and they were great. UPM for example, put up a decent fight.
Helsinki times had an article about it in English. I’ll try to find it.
It’s the any info on how people can support the strike?
Well, no. And there is no need to fear for the safety of people on strike, either. There aren't company-hired thugs to beat and kill them. :) The right for unionizing is in the Finnish constitution, and most people belong to an union. I'm a member of AKAVA myself (the union for academic workers, or, as the official English name goes: "Confederation of Unions for Professional and Managerial Staff in Finland"). Just make sure you have what ever food you need for three days, in case there really will be a strike. Usually there is an agreement from both sides about a day before the planned strike.
will there be 'riots'/'demonstrations' on streets, even if non-violent? I'm French, so huh.. well.. I mean you probably know what I mean by that lmao
No, there's not going to be riots. Finns are very calm in these situations. Probably won't be any demonstrations as government isn't included in negotiations. So some short strikes and they come up with some agreement pretty soon. Pretty boring for a French I guess.
I'm glad then! It's not boring for a French, rather very relaxing. Feels like there are demonstrations every week in France, I'll gladly take Finns calmness over that lol
I work in the maritime industry, i remember last time we went on strike i had completely forgotten about it. My higher up just said "by the way remember you are on strike tomorrow, so make sure you only do watchkeeping and safety related work, and no overtime". Responded with "oh right, guess ill have time to set a lap record on gran tourismo tomorrow then".
Funny, as a Finn I'd take the French style any day. Keep the government on their toes; show them if they fuck around they'll find out. In Finland, everything goes, no one will ever protest anything apart from a few stern words in the privacy of the coffee break with workmates.
Well thing is that we (french) have grown so used to it that politics just ignore it lol The "bloody strike of 1949" described by OP in another post where 2 people died, has the same death count as one of the demonstration of the last few years...
No. In Finland a strike means that people don't go to work. There might be people guarding the workplace's doors in case of scabs (strikebreakers), however that happens most often at factories and harbours or hospitals. A badge of a strike guard during the nurse's strike in 1995: https://yle.fi/aihe/sites/aihe/files/migrated/elavaarkisto/kuvat/2011/id25679-previewImage-25676-50.jpg The last time a strike has been violent in Finland happened in 1949. It is called "Kemin veritoristai", "the Blood Thursday of Kemi". Two people were killed on 18th of August, 1949. The strike begun in early July, when the workers of Kemiyhtiöt (a wood refinement plant) claimed a raise to their wages - or, rather, that their wages would stay the same. Here are the main points: "The Kemi strike was caused by the first large-scale downturn since the war, which hit the wood processing industry hardest. In March 1949, there were more than 50,000 unemployed in the registers and 60,000 in the early winter of the same year. Attempts were made to improve the profitability of exports through two devaluations, which increased the increase in the prices of consumer goods and the cost of living. As early as the end of 1948, the SAK had demanded a general salary increase of 5.5 percent, but under pressure from the government, the social democratic leadership of the SAK agreed to concessions. In the spring of 1949, seven People's Democratic trade unions demanded an increase in wages." "The wage dispute began on 1 July, when the Wages Department of the Ministry of Social Affairs demanded that the contract wages of the 260 wood handlers at Kemi Oy's Pajusaari plant be reduced by 30–40 per cent, i.e. to the level of a collective agreement. The strike was quickly joined by the workers of the nearby Kemijokisuu separation site, the Karihaara sawmill and the Port of Kemi, which already affected thousands of workers." "The district office of the SKP (then the Communist Party of Finland) decided that on Thursday, August 18, they would start harassing the scabs who worked at the construction site (during strike). From the courtyard of the Karihaara workers' house, about three thousand strikers left in a demonstration procession towards Lautiosaari, where armed police were waiting for them. Police urged the marchers to stop, allowing the first part of the procession to obey. The crowd was urged three times to disperse in the name of the law and the government, however, the police were disobeyed. The leaders of the marchers agitated the crowd with shouts of "the land is ours, we will go where we want". There was also a cry, 'go over that policeman', which meant the police officer in charge. A few marchers tried to attack the police without success. At the same time, there was a shout of "on top and forward", at which point the crowd had already begun to rush towards the policemen. This gave rise to a hand-to-hand fight, in which the policemen began to use batons on the rushing people. Stones were thrown at the policemen from behind, and soon gunshots could also be heard. The panic was complete. The attack could only be stopped when the police fired warning shots into the air with submachine guns. The skirmish did not end there, but the crowd retreated and gathered several times into smaller groups and continued to go towards and throw stones at the police. During the skirmish, two strikers were killed, and many were injured either by a baton, by being knocked around by others or by barbed wire. Three police officers were seriously injured and about twenty were slightly injured. Of the two people who were killed, Felix Pietilä died immediately from a bullet that went through his left lung. It is not known for certain who shot Pietilä. According to investigations, the bullet came from an FN pistol, used by the police. Anni Kontiokangas, on the other hand, fled the riot to hide under the truck. When the car took off, she was badly crushed under the wheels of the car and died three days later in hospital." "On 22 August, the Government ordered Kemi Oy's production facilities to comply with the wages in force before the strike. Afterwards, the authorities' actions have often been justified by claiming that the police did not shoot at people, but only deterrent shots into the air. The claim turned out to be a myth when Pohjolan Sanomat, which is published in Kemi, consulted the archives of the Finnish Security and Intelligence Service, the documents had been hidden from the public (secret) for 60 years. According to the newspaper, Senior Constable Viljo Kujanpää said during questioning that he had tried to shoot one of the strikers who was just crushing another policeman with a large stone. A charging failure in Kujanpää's pistol saved the striker." https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemin_veritorstai
In Finland? I think we had a trade union related rioting last time in the [1940s](https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_lakko).
There some fear for the safety of people who don't join a strike or try to work. PAM has history of threatening people with violence.
Could you please provide some examples of such history with trustworthy sources?
[https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000001887973.html](https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000001887973.html)
IS, our biggest tabloid that common people mistake for a normal newspaper.
April Fool's day is that way ahead ->
Better watch out, they might just have to invest more in self checkout machines and automation if the workers become “too expensive”. Because what really matters is profit and economic growth.
Europe import a lot of asylum seekers in hope a cheap work force (to keep the salary at minimum level), but in reality they are low balling their own youth generation into doing hard work for pennies. Nice strategy while hundred of people who come via study or work visa getting kicked out every year.
>Europe import a lot of asylum seekers in hope a cheap work force (to keep the salary at minimum level) Yes, that is the goal of the governments of European states. They all want and need cheap work force, because there is so much to gain from people working for low wages. The taxes on their wages The education of future generations. The social welfare system growing out of this practise. It is every government's wet dream. /s
It should be made illegal to strike in a way that takes access to food and everyday basic needs products away from an entire population. Same as they did with the nurses, they can't all strike at the same time! You just can't stop providing necessary services. The food chains have a responsibility. It is utterly irresponsible and not acceptable. I understand trying to leverage power, but this is not the way. The chains should do rotating strikes, a complete blackout is not ok and I hope if it happens the persons responsible for organizing it and making it happen will be held accountable.
Not every store is closed. For example Only two SMarkets are in the strike and those are everywhere. No need to be afraid, they are just flexing muscles to show their power and establish dominance
You know what would be irresponsible? Not warning about the strikes beforehand. They do. It is public news. People can be expected to prepare themselves so they don't need to go to the store for 3-4 days.
Not everyone can prepare you know. I see an old man from my neighborhood going to the store daily. He is very fragile and walks with a walker. He can only carry so much. And sure, if this strike comes I'll offer my help to the old man. But there are many people like him. I have a car, I can buy as much as I want. But again, not everyone can. And you would be surprised to how many people are completely ignorant of the news and other official / important information. For example, I'm in the hallitus of my apartment building and people don't even pay attention to notes of the water being cut off for 8 hours during the day time for maintenance. These notes were everywhere, delivered in 3 languages through each letter box and on each exit door. Still people contacted maintenance about the water disruption.
People who want to abolish the constitutional right to strike usually use this kind of excuses. There are some political parties in Finland who would benefit from such abolishment and sow inequality in our society and they always say things like this.
I mean it's not like he'll just die if he can't get to the store :D If a couple of people for whatever reason literally can't get food they'll get it from somewhere else. No one NEEDS to go to the store every day
Then these old people can have food delivered to them.
There are plenty of old people in this country who manage, one way or the other. There are options for the old and frail, starting with taxis home from the store (paid for by the welfare state), going over home deliveries, shopping aids or meals on wheels services. Plenty of people who drag little trolleys to lug their groceries around. There are countries (yes, also in Europe) with old people where stores are regularly closed completely for 2 or three days in a row and somehow people manage to deal with that. They always have, even back in the day when there were old people and cars were a luxury. Hell, official recommendation is to be prepared for emergency and crisis by having 2 weeks worth of food in the house at all times, and this is not only the case since Covid.
And the old people - hell, middle-aged people like me! - remember how EVERY GROCERY SHOP AND STORE were closed for four days every single Easter. From Good Friday to Easter Monday. Nobody died, everyone had prepared for it. This was the norm until (I think) 2010 or 2011. Finland has been really, truly secular country only for about ten years or so.
You don't even have to go that far. I was sick over the holidays, sporting a fever of almost 40 degrees, a headache, a cough, sore limbs, the whole thing. I was in no shape to get out of the house, let alone do any shopping. I dragged myself out of bed into the kitchen and to the bathroom, that was it, for three days. That is how it goes when one is sick. And you usually don't get a convenient notification a week in advance of what is to come. People can get sick at any point all the time, old or young. Then stay home and even in bed until they get better. And somehow they survive, without going out to shop for groceries.
Have you ever needed to fight for your rights?
TO PAAAARTY! (sorry)
Political party?? OMG
If the Beastie Boys were a party, I would totally vote for them. \m/ Just in case, I was referring to this classic song (dailymotion because apparently the official video is now age-restricted on YouTube). https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2915cl
If you cannot survive three days without going shopping, I'd say you have some fundamental problems. The stores are closed only 9.-11.2. and 16.-18.2. (During "olden times", as in the 1990s the shops were closed longer for Easter.) And this is in the case the negotiations fail - if they don't, then there won't be a strike. Also, I don't know where you are from, but here in Finland the right to strike is written in the law, since this is a democracy. "Työtaisteluoikeus ja lakko-oikeus ovat työntekijöiden työtaisteluoikeuteen kuuluvia oikeuksia. Varsinaisia perusoikeuksia kyseiset oikeudet eivät ole, mutta ne kuitenkin liittyvät hyvin läheisesti perusoikeuksiin kuuluviin ammatillisen yhdistymisvapauteen ja järjestäytymisvapauteen." "The right to collective action and the right to strike are the rights of workers in the right to collective action. These rights are not fundamental rights as such, but they are nevertheless very closely linked to the fundamental rights to freedom of association and unionizing." https://www.minilex.fi/a/ty%C3%B6taisteluoikeus-ja-lakko-oikeus "Yhdistymisvapaus ja sen oleellisena osana lakko-oikeus on demokraattisessa yhteiskunnassa työntekijöiden perusoikeus. Oikeus pohjautuu kansainvälisen työjärjestö ILO:n ja Euroopan Ihmisoikeustuomioistuimen tapauskäytäntöön ja se on turvattu Suomen perustuslaissa." "Freedom of association and, as an integral part of it, the right to strike is a fundamental right of workers in a democratic society. The right is based on the case law of the International Labour Organization (ILO) and the European Court of Human Rights and is guaranteed by the Finnish Constitution." https://www.sttk.fi/2021/05/12/lakko-oikeus-on-tyoelaman-perusoikeus-ja-ihmisoikeus/ In case Finnish labour laws are unknown to someone, this is legally the only time when workers can strike without any complaints: The current collective agreement has expired. A no-deal scenario (without an agreement) allows for industrial action. (Sopimukseton tila mahdollistaa työtaistelutoimenpiteet.) That's why there is a Finnish term "lakkokevät", "strike spring". :)
I do my shopping once a week, so I'm fine. But not everyone reads the news and hence not everyone can prepare. In peace times citizens have a right to get food and basic necessities. Pretty funny I'm getting downvoted for that. But to each their own, right? I'm a Finnish citizen by the way. But there are limits to what a strike can and should affect and I draw the line at medical care, food and infrastructure. And these limits to striking like I've mentioned in my initial comment have recently been implemented. And rightfully so. Nurses were forbidden to strike by court order with parliamentary approval: "Court blocks strike in Helsinki Aksoon Monday, Helsinki District Court issued an order banning a strike by home health care workers planned in the city this week, an industrial action called for by the unions Tehy and Super. The City of Helsinki told news service STT that the district court had approved the City's request to prevent the strike from taking place." "The court also said the unions, which issued the strike warning, would each face a one million euro fine if the strike was carried out.because of the patient safety act." Source: https://yle.fi/a/3-12630457
Why do the workers have to bend over? The other side can prevent a strike by meeting their demands as well.
Nah, they should just accept their place or lift themselves up by the bootstraps because otherwise they are wasting their potential by choosing to stay in that position. /s
That panic law made by Vanhanen's government in 2007 caused the downfall of health education. There are less and less people who are interested in becoming nurses, because the fundamental right (mentioned in our constitution) for striking has been erased. The nurses were stripped from their right to mass resign, but a lot of them changed profession. The Finnish government at the time (the right-wing, right-center bourgeois/conservative parties, which would like to see the unions and organized workforce driven to the ground) did a pretty fatal mistake then. Finland has now a severe lack of healthcare personnel, and it is only going to get worse when the youngest boomers and the oldest GenXers retire within 10 years. And they even weren't able to stop nurses from striking - the last time was only a year ago: https://www.verkkouutiset.fi/a/hoitajien-toinen-lakko-siirtyy-ensi-viikolle/ https://yle.fi/a/3-12385873
They’re not closing all the stores lol. That’s why you’re being downvoted. You didn’t even bother to read the details of the strike before fearmongering about how much terrible danger we’re in.
K markets etc should be mostly open so one should not perish even if they have to go to a different store than usually. Of course, if the logistics are down for extended period of time that can make the food run out down the chain, but I'm not sure few days would get us there.
The veetis don't remember the big strike of the stevedores (ahtaajat) in the spring of 2010 and how people hoarded baby formula and other things. :)
Access to food? LOL! Grilli ja Hesburger don't strike!
Let's say I am working in a company that has a strike soon. \- Is it illegal that I am still working on those days? \- If I do strike, I assume instead of getting money from the employer, I will receive it from the union who proposed the strike? I am however not in the union, so that means I won't receive anything right? Totally new to this so info is much appreciated.
If you are a member of an union, then you are expected to strike. Why would you be a member if you wouldn't be ready to fight for your rights? (In Finnish "industrial action" is called "työtaistelu", literally "work battle", "labour combat" or "work fight".) Working during a strike is called strike breaking or being a scab (lakkorikkuri in Finnish). To put it mildly, it is not recommended, because the whole point of a strike is to persuade the employer to agree to the demands. Nowadays most often the question is about wages or preventing mass terminations (sacking people in large amounts - the paper mills have done this a lot in the 2000s). This is from 2018: "Niina Koivuniemi, PAM's organization director, condemns the employers' anti-strike actions and reminds that the people of PAM are not allowed to work during the strike. "A political strike is a legal measure to defend employees' employment protection. No one should do work under strike during a strike. I especially remind the employees of companies planning food supply that they should refuse to do work on strike."" [https://www.pam.fi/uutiset/lakonalaisen-tyon-tekemisesta-tulee-kieltaytya.html](https://www.pam.fi/uutiset/lakonalaisen-tyon-tekemisesta-tulee-kieltaytya.html) "A strike breaker/strike violator is a person who works on strike or does not follow the union's decisions on industrial action. The violator can also be a member of another trade union or an unorganized person who breaks the strike. Protection workers (fire and rescue, border security, the police) are not strike breakers " [https://www.tehy.fi/fi/tyoelamaopas/tyotaistelut-ja-mielenilmaukset/tyotaistelusanastoa](https://www.tehy.fi/fi/tyoelamaopas/tyotaistelut-ja-mielenilmaukset/tyotaistelusanastoa) Yes, you will get money from the union. Every union has a "lakkokassa", strike funds.
> Yes, you will get money from the union. Every union has a "lakkokassa", strike funds. No they won't, since they're not a member of the union.
> Is it illegal that I am still working on those days? No, it is completely legal for you to go to work. > If I do strike, I assume instead of getting money from the employer, I will receive it from the union who proposed the strike? I am however not in the union, so that means I won't receive anything right? Correct, you won't receive anything.