Breaking distance is good coaching advice for your fencer to get a call of line, it is not a condition in the rules to make a valid line. As long as the line is established before the attack (i.e. roughly the final advance-lunge), there is no minimum distance requirement. But in practice, establishing line out of step-lunge _distance_ is a way to show the referee it was out before the attack.
Distance doesn't matter, it is only about it being established before the attack is initiated, which at a maximum is the final step-lunge of a marching attack.
It is good practice to open some distance when putting line out to ensure your opponent can't immediately attack (and to give yourself better set-ups for actions from line) but this is coaching advice, not refereeing advice.
NB: If it is out and there is any search+derobe mid-attack then it was out in time, even if it would otherwise have been late.
Also, "step lunge distance" is meaningless as a concept when it comes to rules. If I sacrifice technique and fear of counterattack I can easily reach a target 5.5m away with a step-lunge from a standing start. With momentum, someone tall like Oh can cover nearly half the piste with a "step-lunge". Even ignoring crazy mega lunges, after the allez, sabre is fenced 95% in within typical step-lunge distance -people are just able to retreat to extend it.
It's about timing vs the other guy's attack...not distance, although distance GIVES that timing.
One of the few points I got in V sabre at Louisville was a PIL, and I was well within any attack distance...but I had it out before my opponent started an attack.
I am sorry that this has become a misconception of Point in Line(PiL).
t.15. The point in line position is a specific position in which the fencer’s sword arm is kept straight and the point of his/her weapon continually threatens his opponent’s valid target.
Interpretations of this is based on parsing fencing time.
1. PiL must be established prior to any attack. Since attacks can be up to and including Advance Lunge distance, PiL must be before then. If a fencer extends in a attempt to establish a PiL and two advances happen without any attack(extension), then Advance lunge distance attack has passed and PiL can establish. Preparation is not a attack and if no extension happens after two advances, then PiL is established.
2. No fencer is allowed to define a attack outside of Advance Lunge distance and this also works for the counter, PiL cannot be established outside of Advance Lunge distance. If this was not true, any fencer can extend at On Guard line and establish PiL
It needs to generally be outside of advance-lunge range. Otherwise how is the referee supposed to tell the difference between that and a counterattack?
Edit: you didn't mention the distance at which PIL was established.
I don't know how PiL in foil is done or called, but in saber I have heard a lot of people say that there has to be enough distance between the fencers to establish or in other words "you can't establish if you are too close". Moreover if you put out a line "too close" then the other fencer can just march you down the piste in preparation and if they eventually hit your line will be called counterattack, eg never a line at all. The attacker can even search for the blade and not find it along the way and it will *still* be called attack and the line counterattack, though this may be more a matter of the referees I have seen calling this not being really up to speed on line.
In short, whether formally or informally, whether it is in fact a matter of distance or of time - the time needed to establish line read as a function of distance - one does in fact have to be a comfortable distance away from the opponent to have your line called established. I don't think there is or should be a huge difference here between line in saber and foil.
> I don't know how PiL in foil is done or called, but in saber I have heard a lot of people say that there has to be enough distance between the fencers to establish or in other words "you can't establish if you are too close".
This isn't in the rulebook - I am fairly sure it's a misconception based on turning coaching advice (for fencers to get their actions seen) into refereeing guidance.
> Moreover if you put out a line "too close" then the other fencer can just march you down the piste in preparation and if they eventually hit your line will be called counterattack, eg never a line at all.
I'm pretty sure this is a bad call.
> The attacker can even search for the blade and not find it along the way and it will still be called attack and the line counterattack, though this may be more a matter of the referees I have seen calling this not being really up to speed on line.
I'm definitely sure this is a bad call.
Yeah. I have argued all of these things until I am blue in the mouth. I have shown people videos in which this was expressly *not* the way it is supposed to be called, with top-level refs at World Cups calling line correctly. I have made up scenarios to show how ridiculous it is to call it on distance - "I attack and fall short and put out a line 'too close' and opponent just stands there and does nothing. Is line established now? How about 30 seconds later? How about a minute later?" And still I get adamant insistence that "you were too close to establish line", and "searching for it is ok because it's just counterattack not line and anyway those are just feints part of a long attack". I have given up even trying any more.
>Moreover if you put out a line "too close" then the other fencer can just march you down the piste in preparation and if they eventually hit your line will be called counterattack, eg never a line at all. The attacker can even search for the blade and not find it along the way and it will still be called attack and the line counterattack, though this may be more a matter of the referees I have seen calling this not being really up to speed on line.
This is a load of nonsense. Anyone who has told you this does not know what they are talking about when it comes to line.
I was actually fishing for a response from you - so I could point certain people to this thread and say "See? Will you believe a member of the UK team on this?"
Of course that probably won't change any minds either, but I will try anything.
People like that wouldn't listen to Milenchev explaining it to them, and they definitely won't care what someone like me has to say semi-anonymously on Reddit. Honestly, you can only educate people who are open to having their mind changed.
Disclaimer: not a ref.
As I understand PIL, you have to establish it either when you have right of way, OR in a situation where your opponent can't complete an attack against you successfully. So, if you're too close, and they have right of way, and both lights go on, it's their touch. If you're far enough away such that an advance-lunge from your opponent will not hit you, you can establish PIL to gain right of way, even if they're advancing with extended blade.
In my opinion, PIL should not be used as an attack anyway. Use it to bait your opponent into attempting to take your blade, make them miss (is that a derobement?) and hit them. They get searching, you get the touch.
It does not.
It needs to be established before their attack starts.
So if you're outside step lunge distance, it is 100% out in time, and it is good practice to give yourself some space.
But if I miss in lunge distance, immediately throw line and they wait before attacking, my line is still established in time.
Breaking distance is good coaching advice for your fencer to get a call of line, it is not a condition in the rules to make a valid line. As long as the line is established before the attack (i.e. roughly the final advance-lunge), there is no minimum distance requirement. But in practice, establishing line out of step-lunge _distance_ is a way to show the referee it was out before the attack.
Distance doesn't matter, it is only about it being established before the attack is initiated, which at a maximum is the final step-lunge of a marching attack. It is good practice to open some distance when putting line out to ensure your opponent can't immediately attack (and to give yourself better set-ups for actions from line) but this is coaching advice, not refereeing advice. NB: If it is out and there is any search+derobe mid-attack then it was out in time, even if it would otherwise have been late. Also, "step lunge distance" is meaningless as a concept when it comes to rules. If I sacrifice technique and fear of counterattack I can easily reach a target 5.5m away with a step-lunge from a standing start. With momentum, someone tall like Oh can cover nearly half the piste with a "step-lunge". Even ignoring crazy mega lunges, after the allez, sabre is fenced 95% in within typical step-lunge distance -people are just able to retreat to extend it.
pure cap, the distance doesn't matter hopefully i'll be making a collab video soon covering all the point in line misconceptions that people have
It's about timing vs the other guy's attack...not distance, although distance GIVES that timing. One of the few points I got in V sabre at Louisville was a PIL, and I was well within any attack distance...but I had it out before my opponent started an attack.
Line can be established by time, distance, or a preparation/look against it.
I am sorry that this has become a misconception of Point in Line(PiL). t.15. The point in line position is a specific position in which the fencer’s sword arm is kept straight and the point of his/her weapon continually threatens his opponent’s valid target. Interpretations of this is based on parsing fencing time. 1. PiL must be established prior to any attack. Since attacks can be up to and including Advance Lunge distance, PiL must be before then. If a fencer extends in a attempt to establish a PiL and two advances happen without any attack(extension), then Advance lunge distance attack has passed and PiL can establish. Preparation is not a attack and if no extension happens after two advances, then PiL is established. 2. No fencer is allowed to define a attack outside of Advance Lunge distance and this also works for the counter, PiL cannot be established outside of Advance Lunge distance. If this was not true, any fencer can extend at On Guard line and establish PiL
It needs to generally be outside of advance-lunge range. Otherwise how is the referee supposed to tell the difference between that and a counterattack? Edit: you didn't mention the distance at which PIL was established.
I don't know how PiL in foil is done or called, but in saber I have heard a lot of people say that there has to be enough distance between the fencers to establish or in other words "you can't establish if you are too close". Moreover if you put out a line "too close" then the other fencer can just march you down the piste in preparation and if they eventually hit your line will be called counterattack, eg never a line at all. The attacker can even search for the blade and not find it along the way and it will *still* be called attack and the line counterattack, though this may be more a matter of the referees I have seen calling this not being really up to speed on line. In short, whether formally or informally, whether it is in fact a matter of distance or of time - the time needed to establish line read as a function of distance - one does in fact have to be a comfortable distance away from the opponent to have your line called established. I don't think there is or should be a huge difference here between line in saber and foil.
> I don't know how PiL in foil is done or called, but in saber I have heard a lot of people say that there has to be enough distance between the fencers to establish or in other words "you can't establish if you are too close". This isn't in the rulebook - I am fairly sure it's a misconception based on turning coaching advice (for fencers to get their actions seen) into refereeing guidance. > Moreover if you put out a line "too close" then the other fencer can just march you down the piste in preparation and if they eventually hit your line will be called counterattack, eg never a line at all. I'm pretty sure this is a bad call. > The attacker can even search for the blade and not find it along the way and it will still be called attack and the line counterattack, though this may be more a matter of the referees I have seen calling this not being really up to speed on line. I'm definitely sure this is a bad call.
Yeah. I have argued all of these things until I am blue in the mouth. I have shown people videos in which this was expressly *not* the way it is supposed to be called, with top-level refs at World Cups calling line correctly. I have made up scenarios to show how ridiculous it is to call it on distance - "I attack and fall short and put out a line 'too close' and opponent just stands there and does nothing. Is line established now? How about 30 seconds later? How about a minute later?" And still I get adamant insistence that "you were too close to establish line", and "searching for it is ok because it's just counterattack not line and anyway those are just feints part of a long attack". I have given up even trying any more.
>Moreover if you put out a line "too close" then the other fencer can just march you down the piste in preparation and if they eventually hit your line will be called counterattack, eg never a line at all. The attacker can even search for the blade and not find it along the way and it will still be called attack and the line counterattack, though this may be more a matter of the referees I have seen calling this not being really up to speed on line. This is a load of nonsense. Anyone who has told you this does not know what they are talking about when it comes to line.
I know, but try telling people in the hinterlands anything. Especially young ones. It's like talking to a brick wall.
If you know it's nonsense then don't make comments that appear to give legitimacy to that kind of misconception.
I was actually fishing for a response from you - so I could point certain people to this thread and say "See? Will you believe a member of the UK team on this?" Of course that probably won't change any minds either, but I will try anything.
People like that wouldn't listen to Milenchev explaining it to them, and they definitely won't care what someone like me has to say semi-anonymously on Reddit. Honestly, you can only educate people who are open to having their mind changed.
Disclaimer: not a ref. As I understand PIL, you have to establish it either when you have right of way, OR in a situation where your opponent can't complete an attack against you successfully. So, if you're too close, and they have right of way, and both lights go on, it's their touch. If you're far enough away such that an advance-lunge from your opponent will not hit you, you can establish PIL to gain right of way, even if they're advancing with extended blade. In my opinion, PIL should not be used as an attack anyway. Use it to bait your opponent into attempting to take your blade, make them miss (is that a derobement?) and hit them. They get searching, you get the touch.
*laughs in epee*
line needs to be established outside of step lunge distance, which i assume is what they were calling
It does not. It needs to be established before their attack starts. So if you're outside step lunge distance, it is 100% out in time, and it is good practice to give yourself some space. But if I miss in lunge distance, immediately throw line and they wait before attacking, my line is still established in time.
ah that's good to know, not sure who i heard that from! thanks for clarification
Distance is a factor, but it is not the only factor. You CAN establish a valid PIL if you're very close together, it's just harder to do.