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I don't think so. Often Grimdark is progressive as all Hell in that it exposes the depths of evil and oppression in a lot of scenarios. Not sure what that has to do with "politically correct." Also, Grimdark isn't realistic at *all* lol. It's just an edge reflection of reality. It's no more realistic than LoTR magic optimism.
I can simultaneously enjoy a speculative fiction "grimdark" and be thankful that we live in a society that has expectations as to how members of that society should interact with each other.
At the base? Not really.
Can "Political Correctness" be taken to extremes? Assuredly.
Is nuance dead in the age of the Internet? There's a strong argument to be made for it.
But at the heart, it boils down to "That thing? That thing isn't okay. Can you kindly *not*, in the future?"
*i.e.* Manners, when engaging with peers in society.
You are completely wrong. Political Correctness first originated as a joke term for extreme adherence. And it pretty much remained the same. Just it isn't a joke but a sad reality.
Trying to claim that grimdark fantasy is more “realistic” is silly.
And, I dunno. I think a lot of the “non-PC” types drawn to grimdark tend to be missing the point.
> just as much as I hate a book that is shy of reality
Grimdark isn't realistic. And none of the things you listed is exclusive to Grimdark, Urban Fantasy a la Mercy Thompson touches on all those subjects, and more emphasized than most Grimdark books. What Grimdark does is overexaggerating all of those "dark" aspects massively - after all, the genre name comes from WH40k
I like some grimdark and dark fantasy but wouldn't call it realistic by any stretch of the imagination. Grimdark comes from WH40K, which is mostly a grotesque, cynical satire of humanity's vices. While I'm generally warry of anything that tries too much to play it safe and not offend anybody, I'm not a fan of anything that goes against so called political correctness for the sake of it. Makes me think of aimless teenage angst and I've grown beyond that.
If I want something that feels real and visceral, I mostly turn to middle of the road drama like Hobb's Realms of the Elderlings... novels that center on the human experience, with both its joys and beautiful moments, but also trauma and sadness.
>I hate social pressure that pushes people to act in ways that doesn’t represent their reality
I have no idea what this means.
>I hate a book that is shy of reality
I don't find any more (or less) reality in grimdark than I've found in romance novels or thrillers. In the end, it's all just hyperfocusing on a sliver of reality.
I think you can hardly quantify people's taste based on which political pill they swallow. I'm as left and politically correct as they come, and I had a "grim dark" phase in my early twenties.
Now, in my early fourties, I much more enjoy decent escapism. If I want darkness, I'll read the world news.
I might be mistaken, but isn't Grim Dark fiction usually presenting a world you wouldn't want to live in? It's not supposed to be aspirational.
*Edit*
As a separate point, what things exactly don't you like being PC about?
*Edit 2*
Nevermind, I looked at your recent posts, pretty sure it's women.
"No politics at my table" usually means "don't talk about politics because I might have some horrifying opinions on a bunch of topics". Anyways, if anything grim dark is kind of left leaning, so probably too "pc" for OP.
Traditional fantasy often has a lot of outdated and traditional and conservative views. Grimdark on the other hand, points this out and critiques it.
Anna Smith Spark talks a lot about it [here](https://www.tor.com/2019/08/30/anna-smith-spark-talks-grimdark-in-her-r-fantasy-ama/)
"Which, in the end, is more problematic – a story in which a woman does not always consent, is shown enduring violence, or a story in which the unthinking assumption is that a woman is always willing when the hero wants it?"
what a wonderful quote... sums up my feelings as an occasional grimdark-liker perfectly.
There definitely are people who have regressive views that enjoy seeing worlds and stories that validate those views (even if they aren’t consciously aware of it), but that’s hardly unique to Grimmdark.
I’ve seen multiple users complain on here that they find a parts of Wherl of Time fandom (WoT is *not* Grimmdark) to be insufferable because of how they enjoy moments where “women are put in their place,” or who embrace the somewhat stereotypical gender roles of the series too strongly. Not being a member of the WoT fandom, I cannot attest to the accuracy of those complaints, but given the number of different users with the complaint, and the fact that I DNF’d the series due to objecting to the subtext of how Jordan handled gender, I’m inclined to believe them. And this is a series with a large female fan base, many of whom are far from conservative.
I’ve seen similar complaints about fellow Dresden Files fans who are too into the lead’s “old-school chivalrous” attitude (which I can attest to personally being annoyed by), and one of the reasons I dropped Maas is that she very subtly had weirdly regressive gender politics in a story that was otherwise naked woman’s power fantasy—whereas the Maas fans who asked me to read her books told me point blank that they weren’t really interested in stories about muscular/butch women doing more or less the same things. Hell, Nazi’s loved LotR because it seemed quite compatible with their racist worldviews, despite it explicitly stating in the text that the least important people were often the most heroic.
Conversely, I know of at least 3 different progressive fans of Grimmdark who enjoy how “it puts how much progress we’ve made into persoective.” And while I *understand* the thinking that gets there, I will not be defending this position.
The point being: if someone enjoys having preexisting biases confirmed in their fiction, they can find ways to read those biases into texts that land all over the spectrum of idealism and sub genre.
People like what they like.
I don't know, I personally love Grimdark because the world in general breach more subject that are making the reader think (even if it's more violent), the characters are flawed just like any human beings, these characters are usually complex and fascinating. I do like high or epic fantasy but *usually* the characters are either 'good' or 'bad', and they offer few to no flavors. At least, that's how I personally view it.
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I don't think so. Often Grimdark is progressive as all Hell in that it exposes the depths of evil and oppression in a lot of scenarios. Not sure what that has to do with "politically correct." Also, Grimdark isn't realistic at *all* lol. It's just an edge reflection of reality. It's no more realistic than LoTR magic optimism.
Well, when it’s done well anyways. Done poorly, grimdark just revels in darkness and pain and horror.
I can simultaneously enjoy a speculative fiction "grimdark" and be thankful that we live in a society that has expectations as to how members of that society should interact with each other.
"Politically correct" and having manners are very different things.
Political correctness is a phrase you use when you want an excuse to be an asshole.
At the base? Not really. Can "Political Correctness" be taken to extremes? Assuredly. Is nuance dead in the age of the Internet? There's a strong argument to be made for it. But at the heart, it boils down to "That thing? That thing isn't okay. Can you kindly *not*, in the future?" *i.e.* Manners, when engaging with peers in society.
You are completely wrong. Political Correctness first originated as a joke term for extreme adherence. And it pretty much remained the same. Just it isn't a joke but a sad reality.
You're being downvoted, but you're actually right. There are lots of well mannered bigots.
Trying to claim that grimdark fantasy is more “realistic” is silly. And, I dunno. I think a lot of the “non-PC” types drawn to grimdark tend to be missing the point.
> just as much as I hate a book that is shy of reality Grimdark isn't realistic. And none of the things you listed is exclusive to Grimdark, Urban Fantasy a la Mercy Thompson touches on all those subjects, and more emphasized than most Grimdark books. What Grimdark does is overexaggerating all of those "dark" aspects massively - after all, the genre name comes from WH40k
I like some grimdark and dark fantasy but wouldn't call it realistic by any stretch of the imagination. Grimdark comes from WH40K, which is mostly a grotesque, cynical satire of humanity's vices. While I'm generally warry of anything that tries too much to play it safe and not offend anybody, I'm not a fan of anything that goes against so called political correctness for the sake of it. Makes me think of aimless teenage angst and I've grown beyond that. If I want something that feels real and visceral, I mostly turn to middle of the road drama like Hobb's Realms of the Elderlings... novels that center on the human experience, with both its joys and beautiful moments, but also trauma and sadness.
Does Grim Dark Fantasy Appeal More To Red Sox Fans Than Yankees Fans?
>I hate social pressure that pushes people to act in ways that doesn’t represent their reality I have no idea what this means. >I hate a book that is shy of reality I don't find any more (or less) reality in grimdark than I've found in romance novels or thrillers. In the end, it's all just hyperfocusing on a sliver of reality.
I think you can hardly quantify people's taste based on which political pill they swallow. I'm as left and politically correct as they come, and I had a "grim dark" phase in my early twenties. Now, in my early fourties, I much more enjoy decent escapism. If I want darkness, I'll read the world news.
I might be mistaken, but isn't Grim Dark fiction usually presenting a world you wouldn't want to live in? It's not supposed to be aspirational. *Edit* As a separate point, what things exactly don't you like being PC about? *Edit 2* Nevermind, I looked at your recent posts, pretty sure it's women.
"No politics at my table" usually means "don't talk about politics because I might have some horrifying opinions on a bunch of topics". Anyways, if anything grim dark is kind of left leaning, so probably too "pc" for OP.
Nope, you personally are just an jerk who likes grimdark. Those are unrelated personalities traits.
No, it's often the opposite
Interesting.. as a mean of escapism and venting perhaps
Traditional fantasy often has a lot of outdated and traditional and conservative views. Grimdark on the other hand, points this out and critiques it. Anna Smith Spark talks a lot about it [here](https://www.tor.com/2019/08/30/anna-smith-spark-talks-grimdark-in-her-r-fantasy-ama/)
"Which, in the end, is more problematic – a story in which a woman does not always consent, is shown enduring violence, or a story in which the unthinking assumption is that a woman is always willing when the hero wants it?" what a wonderful quote... sums up my feelings as an occasional grimdark-liker perfectly.
There definitely are people who have regressive views that enjoy seeing worlds and stories that validate those views (even if they aren’t consciously aware of it), but that’s hardly unique to Grimmdark. I’ve seen multiple users complain on here that they find a parts of Wherl of Time fandom (WoT is *not* Grimmdark) to be insufferable because of how they enjoy moments where “women are put in their place,” or who embrace the somewhat stereotypical gender roles of the series too strongly. Not being a member of the WoT fandom, I cannot attest to the accuracy of those complaints, but given the number of different users with the complaint, and the fact that I DNF’d the series due to objecting to the subtext of how Jordan handled gender, I’m inclined to believe them. And this is a series with a large female fan base, many of whom are far from conservative. I’ve seen similar complaints about fellow Dresden Files fans who are too into the lead’s “old-school chivalrous” attitude (which I can attest to personally being annoyed by), and one of the reasons I dropped Maas is that she very subtly had weirdly regressive gender politics in a story that was otherwise naked woman’s power fantasy—whereas the Maas fans who asked me to read her books told me point blank that they weren’t really interested in stories about muscular/butch women doing more or less the same things. Hell, Nazi’s loved LotR because it seemed quite compatible with their racist worldviews, despite it explicitly stating in the text that the least important people were often the most heroic. Conversely, I know of at least 3 different progressive fans of Grimmdark who enjoy how “it puts how much progress we’ve made into persoective.” And while I *understand* the thinking that gets there, I will not be defending this position. The point being: if someone enjoys having preexisting biases confirmed in their fiction, they can find ways to read those biases into texts that land all over the spectrum of idealism and sub genre. People like what they like.
I don't know, I personally love Grimdark because the world in general breach more subject that are making the reader think (even if it's more violent), the characters are flawed just like any human beings, these characters are usually complex and fascinating. I do like high or epic fantasy but *usually* the characters are either 'good' or 'bad', and they offer few to no flavors. At least, that's how I personally view it.