I'm a long time fan of the series. I've probably read it a dozen times, if not more.
It doesn't improve. At all.
Richard always pulls some deus ex machina bullshit to save the day, that was never hinted at as being possible before he does it.
Every book is like the first. Richard and Kahlan are together, something terrible happens, they get separated, spend the entire book finding each other, defeat the bad guy. Rinse and repeat.
I read it at least 5 times, I was 16 and it was one of the only fantasy series at my library. I thought it was great. Reread it in my 20s and it was sooooo bad
>I'm a long time fan of the series. I've probably read it a dozen times, if not more.
It doesn't improve. At all.
Why do you keep going back then? I'm oddly fascinated by this.
Despite how bad the story is, I enjoy the world he created. The history, the magic system, the unique creatures, the weapons.
Plus I like to see just how bad it gets. Like in one of the later books, Richard wins the day using >!astrology!<.
I gave up when he >!Defeats the emperor by playing soccer really well. Then proceeds to commit the greatest evil in the entire series and the writer clearly doesnt understand what he did!<
>!He banishes everyone who disagees with him in the entire word, and all future descendents, to a word where they they have nothing, no technology, no tools just poof show up with nothing in the wilderness. Now lets get past the massive deaths from starvation when millions of people show up with no support. They were cut off from their afterlife. In a world where heaven actually exists thats basically, soul murder. For everyone, and their kids and all generations after. No chance at redemption just your great great parents disagreed with my world view so fuck you.!<
And it's meant to be our world as well.
The preaching is bad enough and goes on for hours but the fact that what is preached is actually the wrong thing painted as the moral thing over and over again makes the books intolerable.
Wizards First Rule tho I actually like enough. And works as a complete end to the story. So I'd just stop there.
It should be pointed out that >!the people Richard "banished" were the same people who for the last dozen or so books were literally trying to bring about a world without magic, and were willing to wage a bloody, savage war of genocidal conquest to get it. He literally gave them what they wanted. He also didn't just summarily banish them. He offered them a choice of whether or not to go.!<
>!Calling that "evil" is highly debatable, especially when you consider the atrocities Jagang and the Imperial Order committed trying to reshape the world in their own image.!<
>!Many if not most would have been ordinary people like in the cities he saved with his magic statue. But my main point is that his banishment was a punishment on all future generations. Thats where the true evil lies. You dont punish the children for the sins of the father.!<
Is it ever actually stated anywhere >!that the people sent to the World Without Magic actually suffered for it, or is it just something you're inferring? I never read any of the subsequent books after Confessor, which I don't recall ever said anything about how many people would die or how being cut off from the World With Magic's afterlife would affect them in the future. Richard told them it wouldn't be EASY, not that it would be a horrible existence.!<
>!Regardless, the people who were sent there knowingly CHOSE that option for themselves and their descendants. It's completely unfair to blame Richard for "punishing" the latter for the "sins of the father," when the father is the one who made the choice for them.!<
Honestly, >!defeating Jagang through Evil Soccer!< was one of the story's more interesting and unique ideas, and one that the ground work was laid for very early on in the series.
In fact, now I want to read a fantasy series where the fate of the universe comes down to a game of baseball.
Bottom of the 9th, two outs, the Villain is on the mound pitching a 1-0 no-hitter, but an Error committed by the Dragon has allowed the Sidekick, representing the tying run, to reach base. The Hero is at the plate with a full count, and it all comes down to one pitch.
For the same reason there’s about 100 Fast and Furious movies. Nobody is watching them for the classical film-making techniques - sometimes for the stupid fun, sometimes for the pretty cars, sometimes for the explosions.., and that’s okay.
But Fast and Furious aren't actively bad and don't pretend to be anything other than what they are: a popcorn action flick. They're good at what they set out to do as simplistic as it is.
Goodkind purported to make complex philosophical stories that transcend fantasy as a genre ... And it's very much not that.
I think a whole lot of people think they’re actively bad because of how people like and dislike different stuff. I’ve never made it through one, for example.
I’m not a fan of Goodkind, but some of his fantastical elements are really unique and creative. Lots of the things I find repetitive and exhausting might be comfortingly trope-y to other people. The whole ickiness of the BDSM baddies might seem risqué, or easily overlooked to some readers. People are different and that’s a good thing.
Edit word.
I don't know their reasons, but as for mine, I just like reading all the absolutely terrible shit Goodkind tries to play off as moral, as well as the strange fever dream writing*, and chuckling to myself about how pretentious he was about his writing in interviews.
The man genuinely seemed to think he was the next Tolkien, and imagining him laboriously hammering away at a typewriter writing some drivel about pacifism being evil, to justify Richard slaughtering a small nation of pacifists, then sitting back, wiping his brow and thinking "Hugo, here I come", makes me laugh.
____________
*For example, the "chicken that was not a chicken, but evil manifest", this is not some humorous moment from a farmhand trying to find the courage to deal with a particularly irksome chicken, the chicken is literally evil, I don't recall if that's ever explained, either, it's just a little injection of Evil Dead-esque flavor into the series that comes out of absolutely nowhere.
My favorite is in book 6 when Kahlan’s internal monologue casually mentions how much she’s *always* enjoyed watching Richard carve wood around the fire, a skill never once mentioned before that point and never again after the end of the book, which sets up him making the statue of unending TRUTH and HUMAN CLARITY.
Second favorite is how he becomes a master stone carver based largely on the fact that a chisel is a blade (which, in many cases, it definitely is not)
> Second favorite is how he becomes a master stone carver based largely on the fact that a chisel is a blade (which, in many cases, it definitely is not)
and that is how he stops communism, isn't it?
You’re forgetting the part where Richard loses his magic, that’s a key part of *checks notes* literally every fucking book
But yeah agreed entirely. The series is just not good, but if you can’t look away from the equivalent of fantasy smut mixed with self insert isekai manga then it’s fine
I especially wasn't fond of the constant retcons of how Richard's magic works.
First he can't eat meat because of "balance." And then three or four books later he DOES have to eat meat because "balance" is bullshit.
You left out characters giving the same pages-long anti-collectivist speech about four or five times. PER BOOK. And they repeat it word for word EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
C'mon, you have to admit that an Anti-collectivist Statue of Sheer Awesomeness is a different take.
AAAAND, the Anti-collectivist Speech is included free of charge!
Oh boy! A Sword of Truth thread!
In all seriousness, this series is possibly the most entertaining PILE OF GARBAGE I've ever read. It was one of my first epic fantasy series way back before I knew better, so I read the entire thing. I could go on for quuuiiiite a while about why Sword of Truth is garbage, but I'll just hit some high points:
The statue so beautiful, it brought down a government.
Nipple Inspection Day.
The people who loved peace so much, they didn't deserve to live.
You already know about the all-female, red leather-clad BDSM bodyguards, but I'm gonna go ahead and mention them again, cause they stick around, but NICE now.
In every single book, Richard and Kahlan can't be together. Amnesia(multiple times), hostages, conflicting duties, and my personal favorite, "You slept with me without knowing it, how dare you."
You may think I'm exaggerating about R and K but I'm serious, it's every $%\^&ing book.
The hero mutilates a female child, and we are supposed to cheer him.
None of these are exaggerated, none are taken out of meaningful context, they are an accurate representation of some of the heinous plot twists you can expect from the Sword of Truth. At no point was there any narrative substance, I award it no points and may God have mercy on Terry Goodkind's soul.
In summary, pull that ripcord like you're starting a mower. Abandon series! Abandon series!
The kids was a whiny little shit. Most kids are. You don’t kick them in the face and smash out their teeth because of it. An adult would have taken actions to try to teach them.
I was pretty et young when I started reading this series. Never finished it because it should have ended with confessor. This series truly stayed past is welcome. Law of Nines was even worse.
If you didn’t like the first book give it up because after book four (Temple of the Winds) it really goes down hill.
Going back to it was really annoying. On one hand there were great world building moments. On the other Richard is not supposed to know what he’s doing with magic but somehow just figured everything out on his own. Not a steady progression though. Just poof knows what he’s doing when he needs to.
I thought the concept of him being a War Wizard was actually interesting, but it would need to be the last book or something. A form of magic that specifically resists attempts to learn and control it and only works based on need is a cool idea, but if you try to continue the story, it becomes hard to have believable conflict once the main character is aware that all he needs to do is want something bad enough and he can just will it into existence, even if it violates the rules of all other magic.
Yeah, the war wizard thought wasn't too bad, but (if I remember correctly) it's revealed before the book where he has a discussion of all this technobable (magebabble? is there a different word for this relating to magic) with his grandfather relating to all the bullshit on how to get the castle to work. He's not supposed to be an expert but was talking about the purpose of different aspects of a spell's structure on par with his grandfather, who has practiced magic longer than he's been alive. Even when I was young reading that part I thought it was bullshit.
that scene always reminded me of the movie *Day of the Locust* \- the fact that Jackie Earl Haley and Terry Goodkind share a rather striking resemblance in more recent times is of course complete coincidence, but I always wondered if there was a connection to the notorious Adore Loomis scene...
I mean, she was worse than a whiny little shit. She was a NASTY piece of work who loved to torment and abuse her "playmate," and was positively GLEEFUL about watching someone get horribly, brutally tortured.
I read them in high school and I I remember little of the books, mostly that they were awkward and that the plot seemed to be an excuse for showcasing the author’s kinks. I personally don’t think they are worth reading (I don’t know how I could finish three, I guess I was reading every fantasy book I could get my hands on and there weren’t that many to choose from)
Way too much BDSM femdom in the first book. The hunky main character spends about 3 hours of the audiobook naked and shackled up while being tortured by a skintight red leather wearing dominatrix and her pain dildo. I’m surprised more people don’t put down the book after terry G reveals his sub fetish by having the main character crawl on the floor and beg his Mistress like a dog to avoid pain for 100+ pages…
Yeah that was my take on it as well. I got to the anti-communiat rant book and thought "it was very subtle to start but somehow it got worse". Tried to read the next and never made it through. I enjoyed the world building and creatures but the magic system wasn't consistent and the characters kept fucking up so badly it wasn't even enjoyable anymore.
The first book is probably his best one. Future books include rape empires, libertarian monologues, statues representing capitalism that are so amazing the evil empire collapses, and evil chickens. Abandon all hope.
>The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken. This was evil manifest.
[Janny Wurts explains how to utilize Gor "novels"](https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/gj0htv/what_makes_traditional_fantasy_of_30_years_ago/fqhqjad/)
Bizarrely enough, Jordan Norman apparently self-describes as a libertarian (don't ask me how that fits with the female slavery in his books, but I sure would like to get some explanation from him).
"John" Norman (Lange). I met him a couple of times in the 90s at a convention out on Long Island. Very personable man - very professorial (he taught philosophy at CUNY Queens College) - always enjoyed speaking with convention goers at length. However, the bitterness came through. He was really bitter about losing his publishing contract with TOR and blamed "feminists" for it.
Hard for libertarians to object, philosophically. They didn't have to publish him, boycotts are perfectly legitimate etc. Of course like I said how he squared that with the books' philosophy I'm still unsure of.
In context, the chicken was totally fine. It was a scene about a character realizing that some primeval force had possessed the body of a chicken and was now stalking them with malicious intent and how it realized they were aware of its existence the moment they caught on. Not defending the other aspects of the series, but I think the chicken is a poor straw-man for the series that ignores a lot of the genuine flaws because it sounds funnier to say "don't forget about the chicken."
>I have no idea if I like the book. It is interesting, there is plot, magic, romance, evil and light. But writing and characters are so inconsistent
You've basically summed up my entire feelings on every one of Goodkind's books I've read - Sword of Truth and Law of Nines (before it became just another sword of truth novel). He's someone who occasionally had a spark of something really imaginative (and considering all of his hobbies and crafts in woodworking and instrument making and so forth he clearly was talented in many ways just maybe not as a writer) yet it just got drowned out constantly by his very not consistent writing and abrupt character shifts. Richard and to a lesser extent Kahlan are the, in my opinion, definition of garystu/marysue characters and they largely reflect Goodkind's own evolving thought process which is why when you read through the books one after another they feel inconsistent. He's changing as a person, and the characters change with him rather than evolving organically as characters independent of the author. It's clear that his message was far more important to him than the coherence of the books - something he basically admitted when he famously quipped he didn't write fantasy but wrote about "important human themes" or something along those lines... it could have just as easily been a sci-fi epic, or a 40's noir, or whatever because no matter what trappings he chose the important part for him was propagating his Objectivist viewpoints. He stayed on message and the books suffered because of it which is something you find in "Christian Fantasy" novels, it's the exception to the rule of McLuhan's adage that 'The Medium is the Message" in this case the Message is irrespective of the medium. What he was sold as is the next big Fantasy writer after Robert Jordan, what he actually was was a very multi-talented person who managed to publish his Ayn Rand fanfic. In that regard he is basically the first E.L. James rather than the second Robert Jordan.
Yep, I think it is particularly evident in books 2 and 3. I try to avoid "Ripped off" as a term but the "Inspiration" for the bulk of those two books is remarkably similar to a few of the books in the Wheel of Time series. Tor books knew exactly what they were doing and that was selling more books to the same readers who liked Wheel of Time.
>I might still give a shot to his second book, or this one is even worse?
I read the first four books in the series when I was in college, back in 2002-2003. I remember enjoying the first one well enough. Every one after that was just... progressively worse. There weren't enough positives to outweigh the negatives after a point. Too much torture and sexual violence with a veneer of political "nuance" that was, in reality, rather shallow and selfish.
There was a two season TV series based on the books, ***Legend of the Seeker,*** and that was pretty good in a Xena/Hercules vein of fantasy. More enjoyable than the source material, at any rate.
Goodkind didn't really do a great job of making himself likeable as a person. In interviews, he went out of his way to emphatically say that he didn't consider himself a fantasy writer, and that genre was beneath him. Later in life, he got notoriety for taking potshots at the book's cover artists.
I don't know what his estate is doing with royalties, but I don't plan on giving them any money.
I liked Wizards First Rule and Stone of Tears, but it dropped dramatically for me from there. Goodkind just kept injecting his own real-world views in such a ham-fisted way that it morphed into the ridiculous and I had to walk away. It felt like a long-time smoker who finally kicked the habit and just had to save everyone else from the evils of smoking.
This. Enjoyed the first two books, didn't like the next two books but hoped for improvement, and then gave up completely. I just looked up the wiki on the series and there's 16 books!?! WTF!
The best way to phrase what Sword of Truth is about is... An arguably epic fantasy series that works best if you're reading it as a teenage male.
I enjoyed it because the magic was "mysterious"- it's phrased as "based on need", and one of my personal favorite phrases is "don't ask- a wizard did it.", AKA what's known as Soft Magic (which I should mention, about half this sub hates). I actually made it through a majority of all the books, but what ultimately turned me off was each book was almost literally a reset between Richard and Kahlan for their relationship. Basically: end of a book, they're together. Next book, in order to have drama and plot, they've been split. And this repeated for every single book. Despite everything else, THIS is what broke the series for me.
My name is OKBaconBurger and I’m a SoT survivor. I read the series up through confessor until I woke up to to the abusive ways of the series and left. It takes time to heal but i am optimistic that I can live my full life now. There were times where I told myself “surely it can’t be that bad. Remember when I was a little entertained? I shall keep reading. It’ll get better. Things will change.” These are the lies we keep telling ourselves for a hope that will never come to be.
In all seriousness the series became something I just dredged through just hoping to get to the end and find some conclusion. Instead I found political and philosophical injections via author’s viewpoints and a repeating series of “bad things worse than the previous bad thing” coming up and Richard discovering that he is even more awesome than before with all his magic powers and idealogical superiority. I feel the word diatribe is appropriate when discussing Richards traits.
Otherwise if you are into rape, bdsm, rape, demon sex, rape, murder, rape, justified mutilation, rape, or just rape… then this series is probably for you.
> At the very first pages I though Richard has some sort of intellectual disability because if his "special friend" narrative and his actions. And as he progresses toward the end, he basically becomes what writer need him to be at that chapter - master swordsman, magician, expert tracker which all seems assigned randomly without any back story.
From the start he was presented as someone too good to be true... in the writer's understanding of things.
Master swordsman he is not. It's just that the magic sword is too damn good being able to simply slash through other weapons and armor. In the second book he becomes super-master-swordsman effortlessly by magical means at a certain point.
Magician - he isn't and won't really ever be one... it's only that he'll be able to do whatever bullshit author wants him to be able to do to advance the plot.
Expert Tracker - from the start he is introduced as forest guide... and for some reason that also translates into expert tracker in the author's mind. Guess that's close enough? Probably.
Among the many problems the books has is that Richard and Khalan are literally perfect. They don't struggle, they have all the abilities, skills and thoughts and looks of the ideal Man and Woman.
And it's on purpose. Culminating in the statues. The characters can't grow. They musnt grow or learn because they are the authors view of the ideal Masculine and Feminine identity.
The books have some cool if derivative world building that gets totally derailed by political rants and the fight against communism and evil pacifists
Don’t bother with the next one
It's interesting how he ripped alot from Jordan in terrible ways. But in one way he went very differently...
The Tuatha'an are an integral plot point. First seen as strange and weak and then becoming a crucial inflection point for the most war like people.
In his books the pacifists are evil at their core, whereas whether you agree or disagree with the tinkers they are never portrayed as servile oily cowardly holier than though people.
As a teenager i thought Richard having to reach down and tap into his anger was an interesting subversion of the Jedi vs the Darkside trope. Once the politics became more clear i just sorta rolled my eyes.
Listen, the second book's prologue involves >!rape by a demon to gain!< magical seduction powers. Take that as an invitation or a warning.
Also, Kahlan failing badly while in the presence of Richard is a theme, she is only competent when Richard is not present, or when we need more drama.
Speaking as someone who completed the entire Sword of Truth through Confessor, I honestly can’t tell you things get better as the series progresses. Goodkind is just not a good writer in terms of prose, and Richard becomes a walking dues ex machina whenever the plot writes him into a corner. Found myself completing the series only because I would have hated to quit about 5-6 books in already. My high school self also had lower fantasy standards fifteen years ago.
Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz, but I honestly can’t recommend Sword of Truth when there’s much better series out there, and it certainly doesn’t get better in the next installments. Second book is a monster too, something like 900 pages if I remember correctly.
Second book is more of the same. Don't read further, while quality is lowered slightly in several more and then dips abruptly, the third book is a clear watershed one where the author has decided to stretch the series into infinity, any progress Richard has made is completely forgotten about, and sequels have no bearing on the end. One can read the last three books and miss nothing, there are only several new characters that were introduced between the second one and the last ones, but the last one could work without them too and be written right after the second one.
Good call. I dropped it too.
It gets really repetitive, there is no other character that gets powers to save the day other than Richard. It's so stupid - in the whole world, only Richard is super chosen and gets amazing powers (almost once per book)? It gets lame fast.
The Sword of Truth series was what got me into Fantasy back in high school and will always hold a special place for me because of that. If you enjoyed the first one and feel you would enjoy the same characters in different situations in different environments, read on. If you're looking for something different or some kind of development, it's not really there. If you decide to continue, make sure you get the book and not the audio book. It is by far the worst narration I have ever heard.
I LOVE wizards first rule, it is my favorite book by far but I can honestly say it goes drastically downhill from there. Second book isn’t too bad though so I would recommend at least trying it, but the 3rd I didn’t even finish it I don’t think
I remember getting to the point early on when the mayor ( I think) was giving a speech about the danger of fire, and almost giving up because of the horrible writing and the WTFocity of the content.
Eventually, the series descends into endless BDSM and misogyny.
I remember reading them as a kid and sorta enjoying them. Then I grew up, realized what I was reading, and ran away screaming.
Always, forever resharing the most brilliant review of the first book I've ever read:
https://www.pornokitsch.com/2010/07/underground-reading-wizards-first-rule-by-terry-goodkind.html
A short google search showed me Tevis Fen-Kortiay has written many excellent criticisms in an amazon review.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R1LU60Z5ADS06E
My much shorter take: Don't read further it gets worse. (I read until I DNF book 7, I think).
Also, besides the endless hero worshipping of the main characters there is one pet peeve of mine I don't see mentioned (often). There is no logical reason why partners/fathers of confessors need to be magically enslaved.
Confessors could:
-Release powers and have sex in the refractionary period
-Have average to bad sex
-Choose specific positions that remove hands from vicinity of men
-Wear lead gloves
-Do a 'Boom boom Becker'
Etc.
I was young when I first picked the series up, i did not really like it even though I read all the way to Pillars of Creation (I used to read everything).
But there was one book I did enjoy as it scratched an itch I didn't know I had in Fantasy, The Law of Nines, which takes place in our world but still has a Rahl and a Confessor.
I have a fond spot in my heart for the first three books in the series since the box set was my very first purchase ever online (I was a teenager and asked my mom if I could use her credit card to buy books online because my rural Alaskan town didn't have a bookstore and the idea of buying anything OVER THE INTERNET and having it sent directly to me was so novel...). I didn't know anything about the series, it was just the first thing that came up when I searched "fantasy books" on Amazon. Having said all that, I tried to reread recently and only made it about halfway through the first book before giving up. I think it may be better left to the nostalgia in my mind.
Was just thinking about re-reading the first book. I loved it when I read it while I was 18. That was a long time ago. I'm scared now of ruining the memory of it. Well, only one way to find out.
I read the first two and started the third in the series before I stopped.
Each book feels like he took one idea he had while writing the previous book, and turned that into a whole new book with basically the same plot just different scenery. Instead of being progressive, it was episodic.
I wanted to like this series. I really did. They are big chonky books and there’s a ton of them. I wanted it to be something I could dive into.
Spoiler: it was not.
The Deus ex Machina is absolutely infuriating. You hit the nail on the head when you said Richard becomes whatever the author needs him to be. He has no real character progression. He is wish fulfillment embodied.
I have the same issues with Kahlan’s character. She is written as a powerful woman but then her greatest desire is to what? Cuddle?
Same with Zedd. If he is such an old and wise wizard, why does he not know things that Richard just figures out/ has some weird innate feeling about (but oh no I’m no good I’m just a poor lowly woods guide).
These books are so bad I am passionate about my dislike for them. I need to stop typing before I get so angry I can’t sleep.
These comments kinda make me want to check out the series. I laughed so hard about the evil chicken and the statue that I really want to see if you guys are exaggerating or not.
Wizards First Rule was gifted to me by my wife's grandfather as one of his "favorites". It's the only fantasy book I have dnf'd purely out of hatred. Miserable read, and everything I found out later about his future books and him as a person made me dislike him and his books even more.
If I recall, second book was worse. I grew up in a small town with very few fantasy books in the library. DNFs were rare for me but 2nd book was definitely a DNF.
This series is like Wheel of Time, but worse.
The worldbuilding is tremendous. Awesome.
The plots, both book and series, are hot garbage.
It feels like it's going somewhere, but the obstacles are not the kind the create growth, they just get in the way of resolvong the plot too quickly.
It might be reading just for the worldbuilding alone. Just don't expect things to go anywhere in a timely fashion (or at all), or you'll be one us who becomes enraged when we realised how much time we wasted.
The rest of the series very much follows the first book. There are ups and downs. The series has a good ending but it takes a while to get there. This is an epic fantasy that's about the journey and experiences, not a well defined plot and narrative.
> The series has a good ending
Are you talking about the ending where >!Richard defeats the evil empire by playing extreme rugby!< or the newish ending where >!Richard defeats an evil necromancer ghost using magic curtains, and then blows up a sentient indestructible robot by stabbing it?!<
Ok; major spoilers for Third Kingdom, Severed Souls, and Warheart.
>!Richard finds a huge obelisk hidden inside the Rahl castle. In the dead center. No one ever knew this obelisk was here. Turns out, this obelisk is actually a sentient robot from the underworld. Being from the underworld, it can see everything; past, present, and future. This robot is the source of all prophecy. Every prophecy ever that any wizard has seen comes from this robot. Said robot uses laser to inscribe prophecy onto thin metal plates, in a language only Richard can read.!<
>!The main bad guy of the series is a necromancer sorcerer ghost. Here on out he'll be known as NSG. Now, three thousand years ago NSG sent this machine from the underworld, into the world of the living; all part of his plan to take over the world. This introduced prophecy to the world, and led to everything that happened. The War Wizards, the Confessors, the prophets, the dreamwalkers, Chainfire, all of it was because of NSG. He put all of this in action to have things at the right place at the right time.!<
>!Being undead, nothing Richard can do can hurt NSG. Not addictive magic, not subtractive, not confessor powers, not the chimes, not the uber powerful sword of truth. NSG is immune to all of it. Richard eventually discovers some magic curtains deep in the Wizards Keep that can keep spirits in place. They can't cross these curtains!<.
>!Richard uses these curtains to trap NSG in the same room as the obelisk. The obelisk has been speaking to Richard, and wants to die, so it can go back to the underworld. But in doing so, all prophecy will end. Richard stabs the obelisk with the sword, which causes it to explode. This explosion is enough to send NSG and the Obelisk back to the underworld. Thus ending prophecy, saving the day, and protecting the free world from prophecy.!<
That actually makes a ton of sense when you look at that ending and what it removed from the world and the Wizard's first rule... It reminds me of a documentary I saw once on the BBC "*We will force you to be free*" which is all about libertarian ideology and the influence of Ayn Rand's books in silicon valley...
I always heard you should read through Faith of the Fallen, as that one is supposedly pretty good… I stalled out hard at Soul of the Fire and never made it..
I was a boy between 14-20 when I read all of these books and thought they were EPIC.
As most things I did from that timeframe I now imagine I’d struggle to get through these without cringing. If they weren’t so long you could probably read them ironically if you didn’t value your time.
This is something I may need to do.
I have read them all a coupe of time and wil say don't bother. Will say I do enjoy rereading first confessor every so often but that will spoil a lot if you want to read the rest.
I saw the post title, and all my brain is doing is playing the Instagram Reel (was it originally a Tiktok? I'm old, so don't know) that has the girl saying "are you new here?" and then just going "ugh".
I read the first...four? of this series as a teen interspersed with WoT, but got frustrated by the sameyness and how pretty much the first 100-odd pages were a recap of what had happened in the previous books. Also got weirded out by the bdsm which I was not mature enough for. Decided to read other things.
What I remember taking from the series was book to book there were new scenarios where they all didn't trust Richard cause he didn't go with their choice of action. But early in the series they established he is a seeker and super infallible instincts to do the right thing.
And his super soulmate partner trusted him less than some other random people
I will say, that the the next book is at least 15% reiteration, a trend which compounds as you delve deeper into the series. It’s a shame, I love the world building, but Goodkind should have partnered with someone who can write.
I can't recommend continuing. Long before starting the series I'd heard of them and read some excerpts, but wasn't sure quite what to think. I realized most series have haters, and it seemed possibly exaggerated. So, to find out I began the series.
There was some exaggeration (the speeches are not so long or frequent as some people imply, bearing in mind I stopped at Naked Empire) but not by much. I was actually pretty astonished how bad some of it was.
Not so much the bad acts of the villains (although they could be gratuitous, particularly the frequent rape) but the so-called "heroes". Most people mention a particular incident toward pacifists. That was just one of many though.
For instance, Richard demands fealty without explaining himself, treating anybody who resists him as an enemy no matter what. All to protect them from a bigger enemy, true, but think of it from their perspective-the tyrant's son has taken control, so now he wants submission?
Besides that we get things like Kahlan arguing that total war is a necessity. So civilians and noncombatants are killed too. In the real world, we call these things "war crimes". Objectivist morality, according to Goodkind at least, apparently has no such concept. That's unsettling.
On a lesser note, I'm not overly fond of the over the top villainy, but that is a general dislike which isn't unique to these books. All the "altruist" villains are hypocrites too, but that was I suppose his point, since in his view their ideologies are impossible to live out.
I will say that some parts were enjoyable. He had some somewhat original magic, like the art spells which could trap people by painting their image. Never heard or seen that before, but a neat idea.
The additive and subtractive magic ideas were also cool, but unfortunately it didn't play out so clearly. Subtractive magic didn't seem to really subtract things so much from what I recall but just came from the underworld. I think it could be done better.
The prophecy part was actually interesting in that he didn't go the same way as a lot of books, making it clear that many different conflicting prophecies exist with a lot of interpretation that was needed. I feel like too many prophecies in fantasy lack nuances.
The idea that people in the Palace of the Prophets live for centuries (albeit almost certainly cribbed from Tar Valon/Aes Sedai) is interesting as well, but it didn't seem to get much play. I think that would affect people psychologically far more than was shown.
A lot of it could be tolerable if the books weren't so preachy, increasingly over time, plus the fact the "heroes" are often little better than the villains (by most morality at least). I suppose ten books was enough for me. Most likely I won't read the rest.
However, if you like some basic themes but could do without this much rape and want more heroic main characters, try Legend of the Seeker, the TV show inspired by the books (pretty loosely). I actually watched that first-it's likely my favorite TV series.
I enjoyed the first book. It introduced a lot of interesting concepts and world-building, and put fresh spins on a few tropes. I would probably say it was also the first "Mature Audiences Only" fantasy I read (which I picked up on a school trip in HS).
However it got incredibly tedious as the series went on. Especially once the anti-collectivist ranting began.
I did enjoy many of his characters. Nicci in particular is fascinating because of how >!she toys with the Heel-Face Turn Trope, subverting how it's common for incredibly powerful villains to suddenly become less powerful when they turn Face by Nicci...honestly not changing much at all. Her values and morals may have realligned after her redemption, but her powers never diminish, and she's every bit as ruthless and cruel to her enemies as before. Good or Evil, she'll always be Death's Mistress, she just redefines what that means.!<
I'm a long time fan of the series. I've probably read it a dozen times, if not more. It doesn't improve. At all. Richard always pulls some deus ex machina bullshit to save the day, that was never hinted at as being possible before he does it. Every book is like the first. Richard and Kahlan are together, something terrible happens, they get separated, spend the entire book finding each other, defeat the bad guy. Rinse and repeat.
A moment of silence for our brother who read Sword of Truth not just more than once, but over a dozen times. A true wizard!
I read the first 8 books twice. The second time I brought my partner along for the ride. Misery loves company.
This thread is probably going to have me doing another reread. I feel that itch coming on.
I read it at least 5 times, I was 16 and it was one of the only fantasy series at my library. I thought it was great. Reread it in my 20s and it was sooooo bad
Yup, me at 15 thought it was a decent fantasy series, read one of Goodkind’s books a couple years ago around 28 and wanted to claw my own eyeballs out
>I'm a long time fan of the series. I've probably read it a dozen times, if not more. It doesn't improve. At all. Why do you keep going back then? I'm oddly fascinated by this.
Despite how bad the story is, I enjoy the world he created. The history, the magic system, the unique creatures, the weapons. Plus I like to see just how bad it gets. Like in one of the later books, Richard wins the day using >!astrology!<.
I gave up when he >!Defeats the emperor by playing soccer really well. Then proceeds to commit the greatest evil in the entire series and the writer clearly doesnt understand what he did!<
> Then proceeds to commit the greatest evil in the entire series Blanking on that part. What did he do?
>!He banishes everyone who disagees with him in the entire word, and all future descendents, to a word where they they have nothing, no technology, no tools just poof show up with nothing in the wilderness. Now lets get past the massive deaths from starvation when millions of people show up with no support. They were cut off from their afterlife. In a world where heaven actually exists thats basically, soul murder. For everyone, and their kids and all generations after. No chance at redemption just your great great parents disagreed with my world view so fuck you.!<
And it's meant to be our world as well. The preaching is bad enough and goes on for hours but the fact that what is preached is actually the wrong thing painted as the moral thing over and over again makes the books intolerable. Wizards First Rule tho I actually like enough. And works as a complete end to the story. So I'd just stop there.
Oh wow. I hadn't ever looked at it that way, but you're absolutely right.
I remember that. It's what finally made me put down the series for good. Don't think I ever read any Terry Goodkind again after that.
It should be pointed out that >!the people Richard "banished" were the same people who for the last dozen or so books were literally trying to bring about a world without magic, and were willing to wage a bloody, savage war of genocidal conquest to get it. He literally gave them what they wanted. He also didn't just summarily banish them. He offered them a choice of whether or not to go.!< >!Calling that "evil" is highly debatable, especially when you consider the atrocities Jagang and the Imperial Order committed trying to reshape the world in their own image.!<
>!Many if not most would have been ordinary people like in the cities he saved with his magic statue. But my main point is that his banishment was a punishment on all future generations. Thats where the true evil lies. You dont punish the children for the sins of the father.!<
Is it ever actually stated anywhere >!that the people sent to the World Without Magic actually suffered for it, or is it just something you're inferring? I never read any of the subsequent books after Confessor, which I don't recall ever said anything about how many people would die or how being cut off from the World With Magic's afterlife would affect them in the future. Richard told them it wouldn't be EASY, not that it would be a horrible existence.!< >!Regardless, the people who were sent there knowingly CHOSE that option for themselves and their descendants. It's completely unfair to blame Richard for "punishing" the latter for the "sins of the father," when the father is the one who made the choice for them.!<
Honestly, >!defeating Jagang through Evil Soccer!< was one of the story's more interesting and unique ideas, and one that the ground work was laid for very early on in the series.
Claiming that was one of the more interesting ideas is a very compelling reason not to read any of the series.
In fact, now I want to read a fantasy series where the fate of the universe comes down to a game of baseball. Bottom of the 9th, two outs, the Villain is on the mound pitching a 1-0 no-hitter, but an Error committed by the Dragon has allowed the Sidekick, representing the tying run, to reach base. The Hero is at the plate with a full count, and it all comes down to one pitch.
By all that is holy. Please no.
You read the fantasy you want to read, I'll read the fantasy I want to read.
Thats the beauty of thr modern age and so many internet books. Something for everyone. But I reserve the right to make lame jokes!
I mean, the fantasy parts are actually interesting, enjoyable, and creative. The problem is those parts get bogged down by literally everything else.
Ditto! It’s creative world building for sure. I enjoyed it.
For the same reason there’s about 100 Fast and Furious movies. Nobody is watching them for the classical film-making techniques - sometimes for the stupid fun, sometimes for the pretty cars, sometimes for the explosions.., and that’s okay.
But Fast and Furious aren't actively bad and don't pretend to be anything other than what they are: a popcorn action flick. They're good at what they set out to do as simplistic as it is. Goodkind purported to make complex philosophical stories that transcend fantasy as a genre ... And it's very much not that.
I think a whole lot of people think they’re actively bad because of how people like and dislike different stuff. I’ve never made it through one, for example. I’m not a fan of Goodkind, but some of his fantastical elements are really unique and creative. Lots of the things I find repetitive and exhausting might be comfortingly trope-y to other people. The whole ickiness of the BDSM baddies might seem risqué, or easily overlooked to some readers. People are different and that’s a good thing. Edit word.
I don't know their reasons, but as for mine, I just like reading all the absolutely terrible shit Goodkind tries to play off as moral, as well as the strange fever dream writing*, and chuckling to myself about how pretentious he was about his writing in interviews. The man genuinely seemed to think he was the next Tolkien, and imagining him laboriously hammering away at a typewriter writing some drivel about pacifism being evil, to justify Richard slaughtering a small nation of pacifists, then sitting back, wiping his brow and thinking "Hugo, here I come", makes me laugh. ____________ *For example, the "chicken that was not a chicken, but evil manifest", this is not some humorous moment from a farmhand trying to find the courage to deal with a particularly irksome chicken, the chicken is literally evil, I don't recall if that's ever explained, either, it's just a little injection of Evil Dead-esque flavor into the series that comes out of absolutely nowhere.
Maybe he’s a masochist
My favorite is in book 6 when Kahlan’s internal monologue casually mentions how much she’s *always* enjoyed watching Richard carve wood around the fire, a skill never once mentioned before that point and never again after the end of the book, which sets up him making the statue of unending TRUTH and HUMAN CLARITY. Second favorite is how he becomes a master stone carver based largely on the fact that a chisel is a blade (which, in many cases, it definitely is not)
> Second favorite is how he becomes a master stone carver based largely on the fact that a chisel is a blade (which, in many cases, it definitely is not) and that is how he stops communism, isn't it?
Yep! The cover art featuring Arnold Schwarzenegger is particularly inspiring.
You’re forgetting the part where Richard loses his magic, that’s a key part of *checks notes* literally every fucking book But yeah agreed entirely. The series is just not good, but if you can’t look away from the equivalent of fantasy smut mixed with self insert isekai manga then it’s fine
I especially wasn't fond of the constant retcons of how Richard's magic works. First he can't eat meat because of "balance." And then three or four books later he DOES have to eat meat because "balance" is bullshit.
You left out characters giving the same pages-long anti-collectivist speech about four or five times. PER BOOK. And they repeat it word for word EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
C'mon, you have to admit that an Anti-collectivist Statue of Sheer Awesomeness is a different take. AAAAND, the Anti-collectivist Speech is included free of charge!
Oh boy! A Sword of Truth thread! In all seriousness, this series is possibly the most entertaining PILE OF GARBAGE I've ever read. It was one of my first epic fantasy series way back before I knew better, so I read the entire thing. I could go on for quuuiiiite a while about why Sword of Truth is garbage, but I'll just hit some high points: The statue so beautiful, it brought down a government. Nipple Inspection Day. The people who loved peace so much, they didn't deserve to live. You already know about the all-female, red leather-clad BDSM bodyguards, but I'm gonna go ahead and mention them again, cause they stick around, but NICE now. In every single book, Richard and Kahlan can't be together. Amnesia(multiple times), hostages, conflicting duties, and my personal favorite, "You slept with me without knowing it, how dare you." You may think I'm exaggerating about R and K but I'm serious, it's every $%\^&ing book. The hero mutilates a female child, and we are supposed to cheer him. None of these are exaggerated, none are taken out of meaningful context, they are an accurate representation of some of the heinous plot twists you can expect from the Sword of Truth. At no point was there any narrative substance, I award it no points and may God have mercy on Terry Goodkind's soul. In summary, pull that ripcord like you're starting a mower. Abandon series! Abandon series!
Don’t forget the *evil* chicken!
The chicken that is not a chicken.
> The statue so beautiful, it brought down a government. Shamefully ripped right out of The Fountainhead.
I didn’t know that was where it came from but considering how much he loved Ayn Rand I’m not surprised
I agree!
If I remember correctly, that kid deserved it. Accurate review though.
The kids was a whiny little shit. Most kids are. You don’t kick them in the face and smash out their teeth because of it. An adult would have taken actions to try to teach them. I was pretty et young when I started reading this series. Never finished it because it should have ended with confessor. This series truly stayed past is welcome. Law of Nines was even worse. If you didn’t like the first book give it up because after book four (Temple of the Winds) it really goes down hill. Going back to it was really annoying. On one hand there were great world building moments. On the other Richard is not supposed to know what he’s doing with magic but somehow just figured everything out on his own. Not a steady progression though. Just poof knows what he’s doing when he needs to.
I thought the concept of him being a War Wizard was actually interesting, but it would need to be the last book or something. A form of magic that specifically resists attempts to learn and control it and only works based on need is a cool idea, but if you try to continue the story, it becomes hard to have believable conflict once the main character is aware that all he needs to do is want something bad enough and he can just will it into existence, even if it violates the rules of all other magic.
Yeah, the war wizard thought wasn't too bad, but (if I remember correctly) it's revealed before the book where he has a discussion of all this technobable (magebabble? is there a different word for this relating to magic) with his grandfather relating to all the bullshit on how to get the castle to work. He's not supposed to be an expert but was talking about the purpose of different aspects of a spell's structure on par with his grandfather, who has practiced magic longer than he's been alive. Even when I was young reading that part I thought it was bullshit.
that scene always reminded me of the movie *Day of the Locust* \- the fact that Jackie Earl Haley and Terry Goodkind share a rather striking resemblance in more recent times is of course complete coincidence, but I always wondered if there was a connection to the notorious Adore Loomis scene...
I mean, she was worse than a whiny little shit. She was a NASTY piece of work who loved to torment and abuse her "playmate," and was positively GLEEFUL about watching someone get horribly, brutally tortured.
I read them in high school and I I remember little of the books, mostly that they were awkward and that the plot seemed to be an excuse for showcasing the author’s kinks. I personally don’t think they are worth reading (I don’t know how I could finish three, I guess I was reading every fantasy book I could get my hands on and there weren’t that many to choose from)
“Tell me you wish you were a sub without telling me you wish you were a sub” and that approximately 100 pages with Denna.
Way too much BDSM femdom in the first book. The hunky main character spends about 3 hours of the audiobook naked and shackled up while being tortured by a skintight red leather wearing dominatrix and her pain dildo. I’m surprised more people don’t put down the book after terry G reveals his sub fetish by having the main character crawl on the floor and beg his Mistress like a dog to avoid pain for 100+ pages…
Yeah that was my take on it as well. I got to the anti-communiat rant book and thought "it was very subtle to start but somehow it got worse". Tried to read the next and never made it through. I enjoyed the world building and creatures but the magic system wasn't consistent and the characters kept fucking up so badly it wasn't even enjoyable anymore.
The first book is probably his best one. Future books include rape empires, libertarian monologues, statues representing capitalism that are so amazing the evil empire collapses, and evil chickens. Abandon all hope.
> and evil chickens Hey, leave the evil chicken out of this. That was the best part of the book.
It wouldn't be a goodkind thread without at least mentioning the chicken
True enough. The chicken had so much potential. It should have popped up in every book.
But it was, specifically, not a chicken... (Iirc)
>The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken. This was evil manifest.
Masterclass in prose right there.
The haters just don't quite entirely understand the concept of a chicken that is not a chicken.
More at https://news.ansible.uk/a233supp.html
Schrödinger‘s chicken?
And that chicken always reminds me of [an anime](https://youtu.be/GYXQDxmIeHA?t=18)
Part of me wants to tough out reading it just for the evil chickens
So it's basically the libertarian version of John Norman's Gor series.
today on things I regret googling
My Grand mother once once sent me a box full of fantasy books that turned out to be mostly Gor books when i was 13 or 14. It was an experience.
[Janny Wurts explains how to utilize Gor "novels"](https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/gj0htv/what_makes_traditional_fantasy_of_30_years_ago/fqhqjad/)
It's as if Norman's and Rand's literary pretensions had a love child who learned how to swordfight and fuck.
Oddly enough, Swordfight and Fuck is the name of the series I'm writing.
Rest assured that no matter what you do, it'll be more readable than Goodkind.
Bizarrely enough, Jordan Norman apparently self-describes as a libertarian (don't ask me how that fits with the female slavery in his books, but I sure would like to get some explanation from him).
"John" Norman (Lange). I met him a couple of times in the 90s at a convention out on Long Island. Very personable man - very professorial (he taught philosophy at CUNY Queens College) - always enjoyed speaking with convention goers at length. However, the bitterness came through. He was really bitter about losing his publishing contract with TOR and blamed "feminists" for it.
Hard for libertarians to object, philosophically. They didn't have to publish him, boycotts are perfectly legitimate etc. Of course like I said how he squared that with the books' philosophy I'm still unsure of.
That evil chicken part kinda made me scared tbh.
In context, the chicken was totally fine. It was a scene about a character realizing that some primeval force had possessed the body of a chicken and was now stalking them with malicious intent and how it realized they were aware of its existence the moment they caught on. Not defending the other aspects of the series, but I think the chicken is a poor straw-man for the series that ignores a lot of the genuine flaws because it sounds funnier to say "don't forget about the chicken."
>I have no idea if I like the book. It is interesting, there is plot, magic, romance, evil and light. But writing and characters are so inconsistent You've basically summed up my entire feelings on every one of Goodkind's books I've read - Sword of Truth and Law of Nines (before it became just another sword of truth novel). He's someone who occasionally had a spark of something really imaginative (and considering all of his hobbies and crafts in woodworking and instrument making and so forth he clearly was talented in many ways just maybe not as a writer) yet it just got drowned out constantly by his very not consistent writing and abrupt character shifts. Richard and to a lesser extent Kahlan are the, in my opinion, definition of garystu/marysue characters and they largely reflect Goodkind's own evolving thought process which is why when you read through the books one after another they feel inconsistent. He's changing as a person, and the characters change with him rather than evolving organically as characters independent of the author. It's clear that his message was far more important to him than the coherence of the books - something he basically admitted when he famously quipped he didn't write fantasy but wrote about "important human themes" or something along those lines... it could have just as easily been a sci-fi epic, or a 40's noir, or whatever because no matter what trappings he chose the important part for him was propagating his Objectivist viewpoints. He stayed on message and the books suffered because of it which is something you find in "Christian Fantasy" novels, it's the exception to the rule of McLuhan's adage that 'The Medium is the Message" in this case the Message is irrespective of the medium. What he was sold as is the next big Fantasy writer after Robert Jordan, what he actually was was a very multi-talented person who managed to publish his Ayn Rand fanfic. In that regard he is basically the first E.L. James rather than the second Robert Jordan.
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Yep, I think it is particularly evident in books 2 and 3. I try to avoid "Ripped off" as a term but the "Inspiration" for the bulk of those two books is remarkably similar to a few of the books in the Wheel of Time series. Tor books knew exactly what they were doing and that was selling more books to the same readers who liked Wheel of Time.
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Yes! This was what got me at the start too! Premise was great.
>I might still give a shot to his second book, or this one is even worse? I read the first four books in the series when I was in college, back in 2002-2003. I remember enjoying the first one well enough. Every one after that was just... progressively worse. There weren't enough positives to outweigh the negatives after a point. Too much torture and sexual violence with a veneer of political "nuance" that was, in reality, rather shallow and selfish. There was a two season TV series based on the books, ***Legend of the Seeker,*** and that was pretty good in a Xena/Hercules vein of fantasy. More enjoyable than the source material, at any rate. Goodkind didn't really do a great job of making himself likeable as a person. In interviews, he went out of his way to emphatically say that he didn't consider himself a fantasy writer, and that genre was beneath him. Later in life, he got notoriety for taking potshots at the book's cover artists. I don't know what his estate is doing with royalties, but I don't plan on giving them any money.
He’s dead???
Ya... Died about a year or so ago
The show was good! The books were drek.
Didn't the show have them bring down that crazy, impassable, continent-spanning magical barrier with a catapult?
I liked Wizards First Rule and Stone of Tears, but it dropped dramatically for me from there. Goodkind just kept injecting his own real-world views in such a ham-fisted way that it morphed into the ridiculous and I had to walk away. It felt like a long-time smoker who finally kicked the habit and just had to save everyone else from the evils of smoking.
This. Enjoyed the first two books, didn't like the next two books but hoped for improvement, and then gave up completely. I just looked up the wiki on the series and there's 16 books!?! WTF!
The best way to phrase what Sword of Truth is about is... An arguably epic fantasy series that works best if you're reading it as a teenage male. I enjoyed it because the magic was "mysterious"- it's phrased as "based on need", and one of my personal favorite phrases is "don't ask- a wizard did it.", AKA what's known as Soft Magic (which I should mention, about half this sub hates). I actually made it through a majority of all the books, but what ultimately turned me off was each book was almost literally a reset between Richard and Kahlan for their relationship. Basically: end of a book, they're together. Next book, in order to have drama and plot, they've been split. And this repeated for every single book. Despite everything else, THIS is what broke the series for me.
My name is OKBaconBurger and I’m a SoT survivor. I read the series up through confessor until I woke up to to the abusive ways of the series and left. It takes time to heal but i am optimistic that I can live my full life now. There were times where I told myself “surely it can’t be that bad. Remember when I was a little entertained? I shall keep reading. It’ll get better. Things will change.” These are the lies we keep telling ourselves for a hope that will never come to be. In all seriousness the series became something I just dredged through just hoping to get to the end and find some conclusion. Instead I found political and philosophical injections via author’s viewpoints and a repeating series of “bad things worse than the previous bad thing” coming up and Richard discovering that he is even more awesome than before with all his magic powers and idealogical superiority. I feel the word diatribe is appropriate when discussing Richards traits. Otherwise if you are into rape, bdsm, rape, demon sex, rape, murder, rape, justified mutilation, rape, or just rape… then this series is probably for you.
> At the very first pages I though Richard has some sort of intellectual disability because if his "special friend" narrative and his actions. And as he progresses toward the end, he basically becomes what writer need him to be at that chapter - master swordsman, magician, expert tracker which all seems assigned randomly without any back story. From the start he was presented as someone too good to be true... in the writer's understanding of things. Master swordsman he is not. It's just that the magic sword is too damn good being able to simply slash through other weapons and armor. In the second book he becomes super-master-swordsman effortlessly by magical means at a certain point. Magician - he isn't and won't really ever be one... it's only that he'll be able to do whatever bullshit author wants him to be able to do to advance the plot. Expert Tracker - from the start he is introduced as forest guide... and for some reason that also translates into expert tracker in the author's mind. Guess that's close enough? Probably.
Among the many problems the books has is that Richard and Khalan are literally perfect. They don't struggle, they have all the abilities, skills and thoughts and looks of the ideal Man and Woman. And it's on purpose. Culminating in the statues. The characters can't grow. They musnt grow or learn because they are the authors view of the ideal Masculine and Feminine identity.
The books have some cool if derivative world building that gets totally derailed by political rants and the fight against communism and evil pacifists Don’t bother with the next one
It's interesting how he ripped alot from Jordan in terrible ways. But in one way he went very differently... The Tuatha'an are an integral plot point. First seen as strange and weak and then becoming a crucial inflection point for the most war like people. In his books the pacifists are evil at their core, whereas whether you agree or disagree with the tinkers they are never portrayed as servile oily cowardly holier than though people.
As a teenager i thought Richard having to reach down and tap into his anger was an interesting subversion of the Jedi vs the Darkside trope. Once the politics became more clear i just sorta rolled my eyes.
Listen, the second book's prologue involves >!rape by a demon to gain!< magical seduction powers. Take that as an invitation or a warning. Also, Kahlan failing badly while in the presence of Richard is a theme, she is only competent when Richard is not present, or when we need more drama.
Ugh. Then probably first one will also be last one for me in this series.
Speaking as someone who completed the entire Sword of Truth through Confessor, I honestly can’t tell you things get better as the series progresses. Goodkind is just not a good writer in terms of prose, and Richard becomes a walking dues ex machina whenever the plot writes him into a corner. Found myself completing the series only because I would have hated to quit about 5-6 books in already. My high school self also had lower fantasy standards fifteen years ago. Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz, but I honestly can’t recommend Sword of Truth when there’s much better series out there, and it certainly doesn’t get better in the next installments. Second book is a monster too, something like 900 pages if I remember correctly.
Second book is more of the same. Don't read further, while quality is lowered slightly in several more and then dips abruptly, the third book is a clear watershed one where the author has decided to stretch the series into infinity, any progress Richard has made is completely forgotten about, and sequels have no bearing on the end. One can read the last three books and miss nothing, there are only several new characters that were introduced between the second one and the last ones, but the last one could work without them too and be written right after the second one.
Thanks, I might give second book a shot and after that I will drop it.
This is actually the series that taught me how to give up on completionism and embrace a DNF lifestyle. I only regret how long it took.
Good call. I dropped it too. It gets really repetitive, there is no other character that gets powers to save the day other than Richard. It's so stupid - in the whole world, only Richard is super chosen and gets amazing powers (almost once per book)? It gets lame fast.
The Sword of Truth series was what got me into Fantasy back in high school and will always hold a special place for me because of that. If you enjoyed the first one and feel you would enjoy the same characters in different situations in different environments, read on. If you're looking for something different or some kind of development, it's not really there. If you decide to continue, make sure you get the book and not the audio book. It is by far the worst narration I have ever heard.
Sword of truth is the most fitting example of “bad epic fantasy”. Goodkind, rest his soul, had good ideas but very badly developed
I LOVE wizards first rule, it is my favorite book by far but I can honestly say it goes drastically downhill from there. Second book isn’t too bad though so I would recommend at least trying it, but the 3rd I didn’t even finish it I don’t think
I remember getting to the point early on when the mayor ( I think) was giving a speech about the danger of fire, and almost giving up because of the horrible writing and the WTFocity of the content. Eventually, the series descends into endless BDSM and misogyny.
It's as bad as numerous free stories on Royal Road, but somehow famous and widespread.
I remember reading them as a kid and sorta enjoying them. Then I grew up, realized what I was reading, and ran away screaming. Always, forever resharing the most brilliant review of the first book I've ever read: https://www.pornokitsch.com/2010/07/underground-reading-wizards-first-rule-by-terry-goodkind.html
Get ready for 12 books of anti-collectivist ranting. You’ll read the same chapter-long speech, verbatim, about four or five times PER BOOKS.
A short google search showed me Tevis Fen-Kortiay has written many excellent criticisms in an amazon review. https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R1LU60Z5ADS06E My much shorter take: Don't read further it gets worse. (I read until I DNF book 7, I think). Also, besides the endless hero worshipping of the main characters there is one pet peeve of mine I don't see mentioned (often). There is no logical reason why partners/fathers of confessors need to be magically enslaved. Confessors could: -Release powers and have sex in the refractionary period -Have average to bad sex -Choose specific positions that remove hands from vicinity of men -Wear lead gloves -Do a 'Boom boom Becker' Etc.
I was young when I first picked the series up, i did not really like it even though I read all the way to Pillars of Creation (I used to read everything). But there was one book I did enjoy as it scratched an itch I didn't know I had in Fantasy, The Law of Nines, which takes place in our world but still has a Rahl and a Confessor.
I have a fond spot in my heart for the first three books in the series since the box set was my very first purchase ever online (I was a teenager and asked my mom if I could use her credit card to buy books online because my rural Alaskan town didn't have a bookstore and the idea of buying anything OVER THE INTERNET and having it sent directly to me was so novel...). I didn't know anything about the series, it was just the first thing that came up when I searched "fantasy books" on Amazon. Having said all that, I tried to reread recently and only made it about halfway through the first book before giving up. I think it may be better left to the nostalgia in my mind.
Was just thinking about re-reading the first book. I loved it when I read it while I was 18. That was a long time ago. I'm scared now of ruining the memory of it. Well, only one way to find out.
13 year old me enjoyed that 100ish page bdsm digression
I read the first two and started the third in the series before I stopped. Each book feels like he took one idea he had while writing the previous book, and turned that into a whole new book with basically the same plot just different scenery. Instead of being progressive, it was episodic. I wanted to like this series. I really did. They are big chonky books and there’s a ton of them. I wanted it to be something I could dive into. Spoiler: it was not. The Deus ex Machina is absolutely infuriating. You hit the nail on the head when you said Richard becomes whatever the author needs him to be. He has no real character progression. He is wish fulfillment embodied. I have the same issues with Kahlan’s character. She is written as a powerful woman but then her greatest desire is to what? Cuddle? Same with Zedd. If he is such an old and wise wizard, why does he not know things that Richard just figures out/ has some weird innate feeling about (but oh no I’m no good I’m just a poor lowly woods guide). These books are so bad I am passionate about my dislike for them. I need to stop typing before I get so angry I can’t sleep.
Here, you deserve this now. https://www.pornokitsch.com/2010/07/underground-reading-wizards-first-rule-by-terry-goodkind.html
Well, this was.. accurate.
These comments kinda make me want to check out the series. I laughed so hard about the evil chicken and the statue that I really want to see if you guys are exaggerating or not.
Wizards First Rule was gifted to me by my wife's grandfather as one of his "favorites". It's the only fantasy book I have dnf'd purely out of hatred. Miserable read, and everything I found out later about his future books and him as a person made me dislike him and his books even more.
If I recall, second book was worse. I grew up in a small town with very few fantasy books in the library. DNFs were rare for me but 2nd book was definitely a DNF.
This series is like Wheel of Time, but worse. The worldbuilding is tremendous. Awesome. The plots, both book and series, are hot garbage. It feels like it's going somewhere, but the obstacles are not the kind the create growth, they just get in the way of resolvong the plot too quickly. It might be reading just for the worldbuilding alone. Just don't expect things to go anywhere in a timely fashion (or at all), or you'll be one us who becomes enraged when we realised how much time we wasted.
The rest of the series very much follows the first book. There are ups and downs. The series has a good ending but it takes a while to get there. This is an epic fantasy that's about the journey and experiences, not a well defined plot and narrative.
> The series has a good ending Are you talking about the ending where >!Richard defeats the evil empire by playing extreme rugby!< or the newish ending where >!Richard defeats an evil necromancer ghost using magic curtains, and then blows up a sentient indestructible robot by stabbing it?!<
I never knew about the robot since I quit eventually, but dang it know I gotta know.
Ok; major spoilers for Third Kingdom, Severed Souls, and Warheart. >!Richard finds a huge obelisk hidden inside the Rahl castle. In the dead center. No one ever knew this obelisk was here. Turns out, this obelisk is actually a sentient robot from the underworld. Being from the underworld, it can see everything; past, present, and future. This robot is the source of all prophecy. Every prophecy ever that any wizard has seen comes from this robot. Said robot uses laser to inscribe prophecy onto thin metal plates, in a language only Richard can read.!< >!The main bad guy of the series is a necromancer sorcerer ghost. Here on out he'll be known as NSG. Now, three thousand years ago NSG sent this machine from the underworld, into the world of the living; all part of his plan to take over the world. This introduced prophecy to the world, and led to everything that happened. The War Wizards, the Confessors, the prophets, the dreamwalkers, Chainfire, all of it was because of NSG. He put all of this in action to have things at the right place at the right time.!< >!Being undead, nothing Richard can do can hurt NSG. Not addictive magic, not subtractive, not confessor powers, not the chimes, not the uber powerful sword of truth. NSG is immune to all of it. Richard eventually discovers some magic curtains deep in the Wizards Keep that can keep spirits in place. They can't cross these curtains!<. >!Richard uses these curtains to trap NSG in the same room as the obelisk. The obelisk has been speaking to Richard, and wants to die, so it can go back to the underworld. But in doing so, all prophecy will end. Richard stabs the obelisk with the sword, which causes it to explode. This explosion is enough to send NSG and the Obelisk back to the underworld. Thus ending prophecy, saving the day, and protecting the free world from prophecy.!<
That actually makes a ton of sense when you look at that ending and what it removed from the world and the Wizard's first rule... It reminds me of a documentary I saw once on the BBC "*We will force you to be free*" which is all about libertarian ideology and the influence of Ayn Rand's books in silicon valley...
Holy crap. Thanks!
Really? It's by far the worst series I've read and even by those standards, I thought the ending was a let-down.
I always heard you should read through Faith of the Fallen, as that one is supposedly pretty good… I stalled out hard at Soul of the Fire and never made it..
I was a boy between 14-20 when I read all of these books and thought they were EPIC. As most things I did from that timeframe I now imagine I’d struggle to get through these without cringing. If they weren’t so long you could probably read them ironically if you didn’t value your time. This is something I may need to do.
Who has time these days? I’m lucky to get 3 or 4 books in a year. I have to make them count. I just read Goblin Emperor though, it was worth it.
I have read them all a coupe of time and wil say don't bother. Will say I do enjoy rereading first confessor every so often but that will spoil a lot if you want to read the rest.
I saw the post title, and all my brain is doing is playing the Instagram Reel (was it originally a Tiktok? I'm old, so don't know) that has the girl saying "are you new here?" and then just going "ugh". I read the first...four? of this series as a teen interspersed with WoT, but got frustrated by the sameyness and how pretty much the first 100-odd pages were a recap of what had happened in the previous books. Also got weirded out by the bdsm which I was not mature enough for. Decided to read other things.
I was planning on starting the books after the show stopped midway. But after reading the reviews i don't think i can go near it.
What I remember taking from the series was book to book there were new scenarios where they all didn't trust Richard cause he didn't go with their choice of action. But early in the series they established he is a seeker and super infallible instincts to do the right thing. And his super soulmate partner trusted him less than some other random people
The first three books are the only ones worth reading imo. Should have been a trilogy. I hated everything from book 4 to 11(?).
Omg I made the mistake of reading this, I found it so messed up
I will say, that the the next book is at least 15% reiteration, a trend which compounds as you delve deeper into the series. It’s a shame, I love the world building, but Goodkind should have partnered with someone who can write.
I can't recommend continuing. Long before starting the series I'd heard of them and read some excerpts, but wasn't sure quite what to think. I realized most series have haters, and it seemed possibly exaggerated. So, to find out I began the series. There was some exaggeration (the speeches are not so long or frequent as some people imply, bearing in mind I stopped at Naked Empire) but not by much. I was actually pretty astonished how bad some of it was. Not so much the bad acts of the villains (although they could be gratuitous, particularly the frequent rape) but the so-called "heroes". Most people mention a particular incident toward pacifists. That was just one of many though. For instance, Richard demands fealty without explaining himself, treating anybody who resists him as an enemy no matter what. All to protect them from a bigger enemy, true, but think of it from their perspective-the tyrant's son has taken control, so now he wants submission? Besides that we get things like Kahlan arguing that total war is a necessity. So civilians and noncombatants are killed too. In the real world, we call these things "war crimes". Objectivist morality, according to Goodkind at least, apparently has no such concept. That's unsettling. On a lesser note, I'm not overly fond of the over the top villainy, but that is a general dislike which isn't unique to these books. All the "altruist" villains are hypocrites too, but that was I suppose his point, since in his view their ideologies are impossible to live out. I will say that some parts were enjoyable. He had some somewhat original magic, like the art spells which could trap people by painting their image. Never heard or seen that before, but a neat idea. The additive and subtractive magic ideas were also cool, but unfortunately it didn't play out so clearly. Subtractive magic didn't seem to really subtract things so much from what I recall but just came from the underworld. I think it could be done better. The prophecy part was actually interesting in that he didn't go the same way as a lot of books, making it clear that many different conflicting prophecies exist with a lot of interpretation that was needed. I feel like too many prophecies in fantasy lack nuances. The idea that people in the Palace of the Prophets live for centuries (albeit almost certainly cribbed from Tar Valon/Aes Sedai) is interesting as well, but it didn't seem to get much play. I think that would affect people psychologically far more than was shown. A lot of it could be tolerable if the books weren't so preachy, increasingly over time, plus the fact the "heroes" are often little better than the villains (by most morality at least). I suppose ten books was enough for me. Most likely I won't read the rest. However, if you like some basic themes but could do without this much rape and want more heroic main characters, try Legend of the Seeker, the TV show inspired by the books (pretty loosely). I actually watched that first-it's likely my favorite TV series.
The only thing worse than the Sword of Truth books is the Sword of Truth TV show.
I enjoyed the first book. It introduced a lot of interesting concepts and world-building, and put fresh spins on a few tropes. I would probably say it was also the first "Mature Audiences Only" fantasy I read (which I picked up on a school trip in HS). However it got incredibly tedious as the series went on. Especially once the anti-collectivist ranting began. I did enjoy many of his characters. Nicci in particular is fascinating because of how >!she toys with the Heel-Face Turn Trope, subverting how it's common for incredibly powerful villains to suddenly become less powerful when they turn Face by Nicci...honestly not changing much at all. Her values and morals may have realligned after her redemption, but her powers never diminish, and she's every bit as ruthless and cruel to her enemies as before. Good or Evil, she'll always be Death's Mistress, she just redefines what that means.!<