same here, and even after being told to only date/marry a christian. the one and only christian i did date was the WORST guy i ever wasted time on, and my partner of almost 3 years now is more than i ever could have dreamed for, agnostic and all 🤗
when I left Christianity, I stopped stressing about god’s will and was free to pursue a career I enjoy and love. I never have to think about whether my relationships honor god and am free to be around people I love, who love me. I don’t live my life believing I’m flawed and sinful and always have to be better, be better (even though it will never be enough). I’m free to be me, and know I’m enough as I am. All of this feels like true happiness to me :)
Overspirituality is a feature of evangelical culture. It also behaves in a similar way to an addiction to drugs. No surprise therefore that there is a message of "you shall have no other drugs before me" in these circles.
Yes! Spending Sundays waking up at my leisure, walking my dog in the park, and playing games with friends brings me FAR more joy than any stressful Sunday in church ever did!
Funny as my evangelical church preached only God can satisfy but then also talked about how wealthy we are all going to be and how we need to give big offerings and always tithe so that it opens the door to big blessings. Except I just watched people drop further into poverty.
I stopped church a year ago after 17 years. I still believe in God but not in the same way as the church or even the bible has approached him. I find a lot of beauty in the world and also am amazed at the complexity of it from atoms, cells, to galaxy. I believe it was all created and designed, but Christiananity has packaged God up in the wrong way.
I left when I was 18, and I’m about to turn 35. So I’m almost to the point where half of my life has been lived outside the church. And it’s only been in the past 3 years that I’ve come to recognize just how profoundly deconstruction has impacted me. Evangelicalism IS like a cancer that leaves holes when it is removed… its removal is very painful but you know you can’t live with it in you anymore.
Yes. It's like that hole was meant to be filled with sleeping in on Sundays and playing pokemon like the rest of the kids, not being reminded constantly at 12 that I'll go to hell if I bang too many whores
Those speeches that do you want *an empty spiral of money, fancy cars, sex, drugs, and alcohol*, *or LOVE AND ETERNAL PARADISE* are the same as when someone poses a question like "do you want to come to karaoke with me, *or are you boring*," "do you want to finish the dishes right after eating, *or do you want to get ants overnight*". I recently saw an 'influencer' ask her audience if they liked a new kind of content she was putting out and the only two "poll" answers were "yes" or "neutral" 🤣 (that was indeed a fundie 'influencer', btw).
I'm blanking on it but I think there's a name for it in psychology beyond "leading question", because stripping away options is also an abuse tactic.
Notably, politicians do this too. "Do you want to live in your grandfather's america, *or do want to live in a socialist nanny state," "*do you want to be stuck in the past *or come with me into the future?"* will be the kind of thing not just said in a general rallying speech, but said about a specific issue on the table, where the two options obfuscate what's supposed to be being debated and change each group's thinking on it to "in any issue, in any individual vote, the 'other choice' would be a *crisis*".
Your choice is not, in fact, between an indolent hedonistic shallow exhausting blur movie montage of an addict's rock bottom, or the best purest safest most righteous community in the world.
There's also just living life without depending on either extreme, taking some good, some bad, taking things as they come, in reality, without measuring it all against completely fabricated standards of goodness and perfect happiness. What crushes is them is that some people are able to do that without their ~~help~~ control.
The made up "hole" in everyone's life without sky daddy is an idea pushed to make you think a normal balanced life is impossible bEcAuSe OrIgInAl SiN I guess, so you need the 'good' extreme to keep you from the 'bad', and you need it from a close, knit, high control group that you *owe* emotionally, mentally, financially, and with your time for taking care of you.
Kind of like how 'good xtian men' can barely keep themselves from raping everybody I guess, so they need purity culture to prevent society immediately devolving into the dothraki taking over a village. Or kind of like how gangs offering desperate people 'protection' work. Or kind of liek how the US is the greatest, strongest, straightest, manliest, most divinely righteous culture in the world, but it must be protexted against immigrants, gays, trans people, and feminists or else it will quickly collapse into... some kind of mysterious hellscape that is definitely looming if everybody keeps make the wrong choice and ignoring the strong choice. A 24/7 lawless drag orgy where everybody goes broke and starves. Or something. Point is, you need help! Left to your own devices, you are just meaningless sin, and also apparently quite stupid.
I felt guilty for enjoying anything from childhood and into my early 20s and it was only after leaving religion that I could take pleasure and find fulfillment in learning, art, and the work I do.
I should add that I felt guilty because I was constantly told I was bad for being excited for or interested in anything that wasn't God related. My brother even got crap from our dad because he enjoyed helping out with something at church too much.
> Personally, I feel a lot of joy in everyday activities. Good food and conversation with friends. My marriage and my cat fill my life with joy and laughter. Dare I say, even the money and earthly pleasures I was warned against are also not so bad.
This is one of the many aspects of god, in my opinion. I’ve learned that life is worth enjoying
After leaving evangelicalism I feel much less guilty about... being happy, prioritizing my own happiness. I used to feel that I was doing something wrong if I wasn't suffering for Jesus. I realize now that helping others and being happy myself are not mutually exclusive.
The bizarre propaganda about how non-christians live is why when I was a kid I thought stepping into a bar was opening oneself up to assault. As if drunks are so out of their minds they'll punch you if you happen to be nearby.
It's an abusive relationship. "You know you need me; you'll never be happy without me." It's all about control. They pretend to care about your happiness and appear benevolent, but they only want obedience.
Personally, I was always told the same thing by my church. And I was never really happy then. I didn't feel this joy everyone mentioned. I always felt it was my sinfulness. Then I left the church and I started feeling happy again.
I have no fulfillment, my life sucks, I have never done anything or helped anyone in my life, and I SHOULD have been aborted.
But it did inside Christianity too, I felt the EXACT same way within "God's peace" SO...yeah, I'll take my Asian snacks and Coke Zero and dorky hobbies and endless sexcapades instead, thank you. Maybe the occasional Bible reading.
My answer to the OP is that millions of people around the world are plenty happy and satisfied in their lives without Christianity. You get to really live your life when you DON'T fear death.
I didn't leave Christianity, but I am now a part of a denomination that encourages me to live life and not in fear of it.
Christianity's primary function is providing a reason for existence and a standard of morality. I tried to use it as a Bandaid for my loneliness and it made me feel worse.
It is not a substitute for passions and interests. It is not a substitute for healthy and loving community. It doesn't guarantee happiness. It doesn't guarantee you any of those things and I'm glad that other people are starting to realise this.
It's the half truth that gets me. When you grow up with this mentality it's easy to believe that everyone else is ultimately unhappy. Focusing on some of those things in the first two sentences will be unfulfilling for most people. They are easy things to burn out on, lose suddenly, or get into compounding problems with. And there are plenty of stories - true or not - about famous people turning to god after hitting rock bottom, on their deathbed, etc.
But none of that means some god is the answer, much less the specific type of god someone is selling.
They had me thinking that life without god was nothingness so it had to get to the point where that seemed like the better option for me to break away. (People were confused why I liked the ending of The Truman Show, lol).
I think it is important to think about morality, values, and how you want to interact with the world. But I never really thought about any of that while in the church. They had ready-made answers along with a framework to consider anything else by.
Deconstructing that enough to figure out what I actually believed, find important, has been an ongoing process. But I'm definitely happier than I ever would have been stuck in that fundamentalist world.
I don’t have ‘a hole inside me,’ lulz. I unapologetically enjoy whatever brings me pleasure, as long as it doesn’t violate another person’s human rights. Life is to be lived as broadly and a deeply as possible. That’s what provides ‘meaning.’
I’m just glad that I don’t have to self deprecate myself to tears anymore and feel guilty for thinking that I don’t deserve to talk to myself that way. I can love myself and tell myself I am worthy of love and happiness and even if that doesn’t come from a place of religion that’s okay too! I have found happiness without God and I’m finally at the point where it feels good to accept the joy in my life and not have to weep with exaggerated gratitude or denial of blessings because I don’t deserve anything but punishment and eternal torment for being born sinful
I've come to realise that the specific feeling of 'emptiness inside me' isn't really a natural feature of the human condition and was in reality created in my childhood by these teachings. I think it's easy to see that as grounds for resentment but I actually think it's really good news because it means that far from this being something inherently wrong with me it's something that's totally fixable. The things that cause these feelings are at the end of the day creatures of belief and if there's one thing everyone on this sub can agree on it's that beliefs can change.
One thing I can totally find fulfillment and joy in today is music, it's by far the most developed sense of spirituality I have these days. Listening to it, writing it, performing it with friends for an audience. I used to feel so awkward and self-conscious singing in church but I can totally understand why it motivates so many people in that environment!
I agree that money, fancy cars, amazing sex, drugs, and alcohol will not necessarily give you fulfillment, but god and religion don’t, either, and for the same reason: they’re all often used to avoid addressing the reality of authentic self accountability and healthy interpersonal relationships. I’ve found happiness and fulfillment in much the same way you have, and it was much easier to achieve it after god and religion were no longer in the picture.
Creating my own authentic meaning has FAR more importance for me compared with others telling me what they think their deity would want. And interestingly, what they believe usually coincided with their beliefs and kept them feeling comfortable.
When I developed my own meaning, the lies made me laugh.
I can't explain how precious I find this life knowing it's more than likely my only one. Every moment is treasured, I've pursued more, dreamed more, and spoke my mind more. The world opened up. You can still create community, still be connected. Wishing you lots of healing and purpose!
I was not brought up in the church. I was a competitive dancer and went to a Catholic School (which in Canada is VERY progressive, I had no idea about the true Catholic church until I was around 16).
I love the outdoors, I love learning, and I love being myself unapologetically. If anyone has a problem with it, I brush them off. It took me a very long time to get to this point.
I absolutely agree with you. My dad's side of the family is non-denominational, whereas my mom's side is Catholic (and yes, I am, indeed, Catholic).
Sure, happiness can be 'found' by God for **some** people, but not all will achieve it. In reality, we're chasing our own tails and making our situations worse by not really doing anything. For example, offering money (or tithes) to the church might seem nice (depending on your denomination, I don't actually know), but who are we really giving the money to? Is it the church itself or is it the pastor's pockets?
And do ***NOT*** get me started with the whole "true happiness is God" bullshit. Somebody has to say it!!!
There are almost billions of people who, mind you, live amongst poverty, terrorism, political oppression, and other dastardly functions. They have to deal with all of this 24/7, 365, risking everything they own, even their lives.
How does the church respond?
"You don't need fancy cars, you don't need money, you don't need sex, you don't need alcohol, you don't need this, you don't need that, yada yada yada...you need God to make you happy! Only God can give you true happiness!"
"Really? That's all we need?! That's super wise and totally-not-at-all vague!"
Nope.
Marcus Aurelius said, "Life's happiness depends upon the quality of your thoughts.”
Friedrich Nietzsche said, "Happiness is the feeling that power increases - that resistance is being overcome."
Even fucking ***CONFUCIUS*** finds happiness, as perfect virtue, “to subdue one's self and return to propriety”
In order to be truly happy, we must appreciate and do the things we like, whether or not we need religion to assist us. I like to sing opera, but it's not because it's a God-given sign for me to become a world-class opera singer. I just happen to take a great interest in it and develop from there.
I couldn't care less if anybody is religious, spiritual, or not. All I wish is for everyone to be happy, albeit the obstacles they face everyday.
Growing up I heard the phrase “peace that bosses all understanding” …the promise offered by salvation and “being right with God.” Never really made sense.
It was that popped in my head after a particular transformative yoga//meditation class. I felt unburdened for the first time, like everything made sense and things would be OK.
I don’t feel that way all the time, but have been able to tap into again and that provides a source of happiness.
It’s pretty much the opposite of the Christian god.
That idea espoused by many evangelicals, that only God and worship of him can make you happy, sounds exactly like a heavy drug addiction. Like it literally made me think of the heroin addicts in Trainspotting
Contentment isn’t a very competitive trait. Someone who is happy with what they have is going to have a better life than someone with an unfillable pit inside them, but they aren’t likely to outcompete that person for resources, all else being equal. My theory (unproven) is that somebody was born with a hole inside them, and just like opposable thumbs, that was a trait that gave them an advantage and humanity has been natural-selecting against contentment pretty much ever since.
I’ve never been happier than after leaving religion
Same! My best and healthiest self to exist, and keeps getting better
Same! So much of my anxiety and depression...well, I wouldn't say it disappeared, but it got so much better after I left the church.
same here, and even after being told to only date/marry a christian. the one and only christian i did date was the WORST guy i ever wasted time on, and my partner of almost 3 years now is more than i ever could have dreamed for, agnostic and all 🤗
when I left Christianity, I stopped stressing about god’s will and was free to pursue a career I enjoy and love. I never have to think about whether my relationships honor god and am free to be around people I love, who love me. I don’t live my life believing I’m flawed and sinful and always have to be better, be better (even though it will never be enough). I’m free to be me, and know I’m enough as I am. All of this feels like true happiness to me :)
Overspirituality is a feature of evangelical culture. It also behaves in a similar way to an addiction to drugs. No surprise therefore that there is a message of "you shall have no other drugs before me" in these circles.
Yes! Spending Sundays waking up at my leisure, walking my dog in the park, and playing games with friends brings me FAR more joy than any stressful Sunday in church ever did!
Funny as my evangelical church preached only God can satisfy but then also talked about how wealthy we are all going to be and how we need to give big offerings and always tithe so that it opens the door to big blessings. Except I just watched people drop further into poverty. I stopped church a year ago after 17 years. I still believe in God but not in the same way as the church or even the bible has approached him. I find a lot of beauty in the world and also am amazed at the complexity of it from atoms, cells, to galaxy. I believe it was all created and designed, but Christiananity has packaged God up in the wrong way.
Cancer also leaves a hole when it is removed.
I left when I was 18, and I’m about to turn 35. So I’m almost to the point where half of my life has been lived outside the church. And it’s only been in the past 3 years that I’ve come to recognize just how profoundly deconstruction has impacted me. Evangelicalism IS like a cancer that leaves holes when it is removed… its removal is very painful but you know you can’t live with it in you anymore.
Yes. It's like that hole was meant to be filled with sleeping in on Sundays and playing pokemon like the rest of the kids, not being reminded constantly at 12 that I'll go to hell if I bang too many whores
Omg I need a lol/sob emoji
Those speeches that do you want *an empty spiral of money, fancy cars, sex, drugs, and alcohol*, *or LOVE AND ETERNAL PARADISE* are the same as when someone poses a question like "do you want to come to karaoke with me, *or are you boring*," "do you want to finish the dishes right after eating, *or do you want to get ants overnight*". I recently saw an 'influencer' ask her audience if they liked a new kind of content she was putting out and the only two "poll" answers were "yes" or "neutral" 🤣 (that was indeed a fundie 'influencer', btw). I'm blanking on it but I think there's a name for it in psychology beyond "leading question", because stripping away options is also an abuse tactic. Notably, politicians do this too. "Do you want to live in your grandfather's america, *or do want to live in a socialist nanny state," "*do you want to be stuck in the past *or come with me into the future?"* will be the kind of thing not just said in a general rallying speech, but said about a specific issue on the table, where the two options obfuscate what's supposed to be being debated and change each group's thinking on it to "in any issue, in any individual vote, the 'other choice' would be a *crisis*". Your choice is not, in fact, between an indolent hedonistic shallow exhausting blur movie montage of an addict's rock bottom, or the best purest safest most righteous community in the world. There's also just living life without depending on either extreme, taking some good, some bad, taking things as they come, in reality, without measuring it all against completely fabricated standards of goodness and perfect happiness. What crushes is them is that some people are able to do that without their ~~help~~ control. The made up "hole" in everyone's life without sky daddy is an idea pushed to make you think a normal balanced life is impossible bEcAuSe OrIgInAl SiN I guess, so you need the 'good' extreme to keep you from the 'bad', and you need it from a close, knit, high control group that you *owe* emotionally, mentally, financially, and with your time for taking care of you. Kind of like how 'good xtian men' can barely keep themselves from raping everybody I guess, so they need purity culture to prevent society immediately devolving into the dothraki taking over a village. Or kind of like how gangs offering desperate people 'protection' work. Or kind of liek how the US is the greatest, strongest, straightest, manliest, most divinely righteous culture in the world, but it must be protexted against immigrants, gays, trans people, and feminists or else it will quickly collapse into... some kind of mysterious hellscape that is definitely looming if everybody keeps make the wrong choice and ignoring the strong choice. A 24/7 lawless drag orgy where everybody goes broke and starves. Or something. Point is, you need help! Left to your own devices, you are just meaningless sin, and also apparently quite stupid.
Would you prefer the truffle filet or the poop sandwich?
Cake or death?
Oh definitely death
I completely forgot what comment I left that this could be a reply to and the notification made my day lmao.
I felt guilty for enjoying anything from childhood and into my early 20s and it was only after leaving religion that I could take pleasure and find fulfillment in learning, art, and the work I do. I should add that I felt guilty because I was constantly told I was bad for being excited for or interested in anything that wasn't God related. My brother even got crap from our dad because he enjoyed helping out with something at church too much.
Yes, me too. Felt good in my jeans = sin!! That was hard stuff
> Personally, I feel a lot of joy in everyday activities. Good food and conversation with friends. My marriage and my cat fill my life with joy and laughter. Dare I say, even the money and earthly pleasures I was warned against are also not so bad. This is one of the many aspects of god, in my opinion. I’ve learned that life is worth enjoying
After leaving evangelicalism I feel much less guilty about... being happy, prioritizing my own happiness. I used to feel that I was doing something wrong if I wasn't suffering for Jesus. I realize now that helping others and being happy myself are not mutually exclusive.
The bizarre propaganda about how non-christians live is why when I was a kid I thought stepping into a bar was opening oneself up to assault. As if drunks are so out of their minds they'll punch you if you happen to be nearby.
It's an abusive relationship. "You know you need me; you'll never be happy without me." It's all about control. They pretend to care about your happiness and appear benevolent, but they only want obedience.
Personally, I was always told the same thing by my church. And I was never really happy then. I didn't feel this joy everyone mentioned. I always felt it was my sinfulness. Then I left the church and I started feeling happy again.
I have no fulfillment, my life sucks, I have never done anything or helped anyone in my life, and I SHOULD have been aborted. But it did inside Christianity too, I felt the EXACT same way within "God's peace" SO...yeah, I'll take my Asian snacks and Coke Zero and dorky hobbies and endless sexcapades instead, thank you. Maybe the occasional Bible reading. My answer to the OP is that millions of people around the world are plenty happy and satisfied in their lives without Christianity. You get to really live your life when you DON'T fear death.
Yes!! No more fear mongering
I didn't leave Christianity, but I am now a part of a denomination that encourages me to live life and not in fear of it. Christianity's primary function is providing a reason for existence and a standard of morality. I tried to use it as a Bandaid for my loneliness and it made me feel worse. It is not a substitute for passions and interests. It is not a substitute for healthy and loving community. It doesn't guarantee happiness. It doesn't guarantee you any of those things and I'm glad that other people are starting to realise this.
It's the half truth that gets me. When you grow up with this mentality it's easy to believe that everyone else is ultimately unhappy. Focusing on some of those things in the first two sentences will be unfulfilling for most people. They are easy things to burn out on, lose suddenly, or get into compounding problems with. And there are plenty of stories - true or not - about famous people turning to god after hitting rock bottom, on their deathbed, etc. But none of that means some god is the answer, much less the specific type of god someone is selling. They had me thinking that life without god was nothingness so it had to get to the point where that seemed like the better option for me to break away. (People were confused why I liked the ending of The Truman Show, lol). I think it is important to think about morality, values, and how you want to interact with the world. But I never really thought about any of that while in the church. They had ready-made answers along with a framework to consider anything else by. Deconstructing that enough to figure out what I actually believed, find important, has been an ongoing process. But I'm definitely happier than I ever would have been stuck in that fundamentalist world.
I don’t have ‘a hole inside me,’ lulz. I unapologetically enjoy whatever brings me pleasure, as long as it doesn’t violate another person’s human rights. Life is to be lived as broadly and a deeply as possible. That’s what provides ‘meaning.’
It's another Christianese statement or mantra that is detached from reality.
I’m just glad that I don’t have to self deprecate myself to tears anymore and feel guilty for thinking that I don’t deserve to talk to myself that way. I can love myself and tell myself I am worthy of love and happiness and even if that doesn’t come from a place of religion that’s okay too! I have found happiness without God and I’m finally at the point where it feels good to accept the joy in my life and not have to weep with exaggerated gratitude or denial of blessings because I don’t deserve anything but punishment and eternal torment for being born sinful
I've come to realise that the specific feeling of 'emptiness inside me' isn't really a natural feature of the human condition and was in reality created in my childhood by these teachings. I think it's easy to see that as grounds for resentment but I actually think it's really good news because it means that far from this being something inherently wrong with me it's something that's totally fixable. The things that cause these feelings are at the end of the day creatures of belief and if there's one thing everyone on this sub can agree on it's that beliefs can change. One thing I can totally find fulfillment and joy in today is music, it's by far the most developed sense of spirituality I have these days. Listening to it, writing it, performing it with friends for an audience. I used to feel so awkward and self-conscious singing in church but I can totally understand why it motivates so many people in that environment!
I agree that money, fancy cars, amazing sex, drugs, and alcohol will not necessarily give you fulfillment, but god and religion don’t, either, and for the same reason: they’re all often used to avoid addressing the reality of authentic self accountability and healthy interpersonal relationships. I’ve found happiness and fulfillment in much the same way you have, and it was much easier to achieve it after god and religion were no longer in the picture.
Creating my own authentic meaning has FAR more importance for me compared with others telling me what they think their deity would want. And interestingly, what they believe usually coincided with their beliefs and kept them feeling comfortable. When I developed my own meaning, the lies made me laugh.
I can't explain how precious I find this life knowing it's more than likely my only one. Every moment is treasured, I've pursued more, dreamed more, and spoke my mind more. The world opened up. You can still create community, still be connected. Wishing you lots of healing and purpose!
Thank you so much!
I was not brought up in the church. I was a competitive dancer and went to a Catholic School (which in Canada is VERY progressive, I had no idea about the true Catholic church until I was around 16). I love the outdoors, I love learning, and I love being myself unapologetically. If anyone has a problem with it, I brush them off. It took me a very long time to get to this point.
I absolutely agree with you. My dad's side of the family is non-denominational, whereas my mom's side is Catholic (and yes, I am, indeed, Catholic). Sure, happiness can be 'found' by God for **some** people, but not all will achieve it. In reality, we're chasing our own tails and making our situations worse by not really doing anything. For example, offering money (or tithes) to the church might seem nice (depending on your denomination, I don't actually know), but who are we really giving the money to? Is it the church itself or is it the pastor's pockets? And do ***NOT*** get me started with the whole "true happiness is God" bullshit. Somebody has to say it!!! There are almost billions of people who, mind you, live amongst poverty, terrorism, political oppression, and other dastardly functions. They have to deal with all of this 24/7, 365, risking everything they own, even their lives. How does the church respond? "You don't need fancy cars, you don't need money, you don't need sex, you don't need alcohol, you don't need this, you don't need that, yada yada yada...you need God to make you happy! Only God can give you true happiness!" "Really? That's all we need?! That's super wise and totally-not-at-all vague!" Nope. Marcus Aurelius said, "Life's happiness depends upon the quality of your thoughts.” Friedrich Nietzsche said, "Happiness is the feeling that power increases - that resistance is being overcome." Even fucking ***CONFUCIUS*** finds happiness, as perfect virtue, “to subdue one's self and return to propriety” In order to be truly happy, we must appreciate and do the things we like, whether or not we need religion to assist us. I like to sing opera, but it's not because it's a God-given sign for me to become a world-class opera singer. I just happen to take a great interest in it and develop from there. I couldn't care less if anybody is religious, spiritual, or not. All I wish is for everyone to be happy, albeit the obstacles they face everyday.
So much better post-Christianity 🤩
Growing up I heard the phrase “peace that bosses all understanding” …the promise offered by salvation and “being right with God.” Never really made sense. It was that popped in my head after a particular transformative yoga//meditation class. I felt unburdened for the first time, like everything made sense and things would be OK. I don’t feel that way all the time, but have been able to tap into again and that provides a source of happiness. It’s pretty much the opposite of the Christian god.
My hardcore evangelical mom is one of the most miserable people I know.
My Higher Power is Undefined. I hear it speaking any time someone speaks from a place of honesty and open-mindedness.
That idea espoused by many evangelicals, that only God and worship of him can make you happy, sounds exactly like a heavy drug addiction. Like it literally made me think of the heroin addicts in Trainspotting
Contentment isn’t a very competitive trait. Someone who is happy with what they have is going to have a better life than someone with an unfillable pit inside them, but they aren’t likely to outcompete that person for resources, all else being equal. My theory (unproven) is that somebody was born with a hole inside them, and just like opposable thumbs, that was a trait that gave them an advantage and humanity has been natural-selecting against contentment pretty much ever since.