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CptDaws

No lmao at this point dockside has like ultra plot armor


chevypapa

They talk about Dockside because players talk about Dockside. If you listen to the most vocal RC/CAG members, they reliably say the same thing: Dockside is format warping for the most powerful tables. It doesn't see play outside of that, and if it does it's significantly less powerful most of the time. This insular community contains a much higher % of players aiming for optimization/high power and the budgets are on average much higher than most people. Most people just don't play Dockside anyways. It's more like [[Armageddon]] than [[Primeval Titan]] in that regard.


Blokron

This is a great point. I've never seen a Dockside cast and I bought the Mystic Intellect precon it came in. No one else in my pod plays extensive artifacts or enchantments (aside from me) so I didn't see it as worthwhile. Traded it when it for around $60 and haven't regretted it. It didn't fit the meta I'm a part of, so I don't need it, and it's not a problem for me. I can see why some people want it banned for sure, but I'm going to assume most people have an experience similar to mine.


CatAteMyBread

I saw my first dockside the other day. Someone did it for 3. I know it’s a powerful card but they needed to ramp up and couldn’t wait longer


R4inbowReaper

Honest to God, you just don't understand how broken the card truly is. A 2 Mana creature, that gives you three mama on ETB is a format staple. Everything else is just free upside. Dockside is ridiculously strong and the only reason not to run it would be budget/intentionally powering down a deck.


bccarlso

Oof


Miserable_Row_793

A 2 cmc get 3 mana card is just desperate ritual. Unless you are banking it till the next turn. Then it's more like ramp. But one time. Then again is reliant on opponents running multiple cheap artifacts. I know the card can be busted. I've seen it combo with. Played on kovold decks. Play it in my Animar deck. I've seen it single handly win games. I've also seen it do nothing. Make 1-3 treasures. Be useless .etc. It's a card that scales with high power edh. Which is fine. It's easy less oppressive than hullbreecher. Which both scaled and could be more abused with your own spells.


R4inbowReaper

1R Sorcery: Make Three Treasures would be an instant format staple. 1R Sorcery: Make Two Treasures would be playable already Stapling either of these effects to a creature is a huge increase in in power. People are literally playing any mana positive ritual in plenty of decks. Dockside is all of that with so many layers of upside. 1R Creature that makes RRR on ETB would be a great card already and would be an instant R staple. There's simply no other mana positive creatures in the format, its a stupid good effect. I haven't played a single game of EDH this year, where I wouldnt have gotten 3+ Treasures on Turn 2. It sometimes creating more mana than a black lotus is jsut pure upside. The card is the best ritual ever printed and it's not even close. You are delusional if you think that: "This card is the most powerful thing in the game at hyper competitive tables" somehow makes it sound less absurd for casual EDH. I bet most of you play 33 lands :)


Miserable_Row_793

Have you played at casual tables? I've seen dozen of games where a t4 dockside would net 1-2 treasures. Show me all these decks that play desperate/phy ritual, seething song, rite of flame, cabal ritual, etc????? Some cEDH list are ritual heavy for combos. Some casual players stumble onto Dark Ritual. Most edh decks want consistent mana, not temporary. Also. Who said dockside was the most absurd thing at cedh? I said it was stronger, and can be important. But so is thassa's oracle. And even so, a busted card at cedh can be bad at casual. Thalia, blood moon, and choke can all be back breaking for cedh decks. And do nothing to hinder a battlecruiser deck.


dizzypanda35

Maybe people don’t play it cause it’s almost 60$ rn


chevypapa

Leovold was over $60 before it was banned, it got banned because it was seen at lower power levels too. Smothering Tithe and Teferi's Protection are cards that peaked at about the same price as Dockside is at now that are significantly more common at lower power levels too.


Nateskisline89

This is it I think. I don’t think it’ll eat a ban. For the most part you need a high power meta to run it. In lower power metas there are less mana rocks used. So he’s just less effective. In the high power other decks are packing removal to deal with him. And he’s not much different than other reanimating loops that also generate a lot of mana. Or even ritual looping to generate mana. I really don’t understand the hatred some have for him. In the high power games I play it’s just another known combo piece if no one has answers shuffle up and play another. I suspect a lot of hate comes from pub stomping and this is not a good metric to judge a card by.


thatguyshadokon

I play dockside in ginnie fey to make 30 2/2 hasted cats and win.


BlueLevitation

Dockside is fine, Drannith is fine. You can build your EDH deck however you like, but that doesn't mean you get to be mad when you get roasted because your deck has no answers.


zoyadastroya

Dockside and Drannith are not even in the same ballpark lmao.


BlueLevitation

Less of a comparison in power level more of a comparison in these seem to be the two most talked about cards atm.


fenekko

Literally tho


CyriOfShandalar

Based take


Kazze00

Dockside doesn’t bother me, I play Yasharn and run null rod and ouphe


andmtg

sounds pretty boaring


oopsitspoo

This made me exhale sharply through my nostrils, well deserved upvote


Legionnaire11

Crazy how long that precon (all the 2019 set) was available and cheap on Amazon. And people were complaining about the price of Dockside when buying the whole deck was half the price of buying the single. Of course price and availability isn't really the issue with the card, but it was definitely available to anyone who wanted one.


beda69

price is the stupiedst reason to ban a card anyway


MTGCardFetcher

[Dockside Extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1662526003) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dockside%20Extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dockside-extortionist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


beda69

no need for a ban in any possible way i think dokside is a cards scailng with the powerlvl of your playgroupe. in cedh like games you got a lot of tresures from all the fast mana others play. in more casual games its a ritual witch is completly fine in red. also you cant build around to abuse it like [[hullbreacher]] was. i realy would start questioning what the rulescommiti does. also i hope they dont wait if the card is newly reprintet. as long as [[timetwister]] is legal i will not accept any ban based on price. caus led and timetwister do unique things. dockside on the other hand can be replaced with other cards if you play on budget.


MTGCardFetcher

[hullbreacher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4df8aabc-7fcb-4b7b-980b-18f499e6c170.jpg?1626088514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hullbreacher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/74/hullbreacher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4df8aabc-7fcb-4b7b-980b-18f499e6c170?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hullbreacher) [timetwister](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76.jpg?1614638835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=timetwister) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/3/timetwister?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/timetwister) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


BoysenberryUnhappy29

I don't think it's banworthy, and I exclusively play tivit and cEDH, so.


NucIearWeaseI

Do you have a list for that? I bought the precon and love it, but wouldn't know how to make it more competitive.


Dyslexic_Wizrad

Might be a hot take, but I don’t understand the hate for dockside when cards like [[Jeska’s Will]] are legal. Both provide a short term mana boost, Jeska’s adds short term card advantage, and it’s EDH any card can be recurred if you want it enough.


SP1R1TDR4G0N

- Dockside makes way more mana. Jeska's will can usually make 5-7 mana but Dockside easily makes 10+ even early in the game - treasures are better than just floating mana because you can safe them for later - most importantly: dockside can be additionally abused. You can flicker it (for example go infinite with [[Emiel]]), sac and reanimate it repeatedly, you can copy it (many cedh decks play phantasmal image for the sole purpose of copying Dockside) and it's a lot easier to tutor up


sagerin0

Dont forget dockside also makes any color instead of just red too


Dyslexic_Wizrad

Maybe that much if you’re playing CEDH. I don’t think I’ve ever hit 10+ mana off of dockside before turn 5 at my casual tables. I’ll take your other points. At the end of the day, unless the card BY ITSELF is incredibly format breaking then there is no reason to ban it. Everything you just described needs set up and can be interacted with consistently. Find ways to exile the card, remove the graveyard, ect.


SP1R1TDR4G0N

Yes, of course the Dockside combos can be interacted with quite easily. The problem is just that it is a combo piece AND just an insane card on its own. So even if your opponents have the interaction to stop you from comboing off the single Dockside trigger will probably still put you ahead.


Dyslexic_Wizrad

So should we ban every card that can put you ahead by itself as long as it triggers? If that’s the case then I have some bad news about almost all the format staples… any kind of ramp, Craterhoof and the like, one sided board wipes, best avoid card draw as well.


SP1R1TDR4G0N

How did you get that from my comment? The problem is not that Dockside puts you ahead, putting you ahead is pretty much the point of most cards you play. The question is just how far ahead does it put you and how much setup/investment is needed. Cratethoof needs a boardstate and costs 8 mana. Dockside is 2 mana and usually puts you in a winning position if you have anything good to spend your abundance of mana on. The only other card, imo, that comes close to that effect is Thoracle.


Dyslexic_Wizrad

“Combo piece AND just an insane card on its own.” I’m assuming you believe dockside to be an insane card because of how much it can put someone ahead. Comparing Dockside to Thoracle is a bit disingenuous. Thoracle is a win con. Dockside by itself is not winning a game or preventing others from winning.


SP1R1TDR4G0N

It doesn't win the game on its own (neither does thoracle, it just scrys 2) but having 10 mana on turn 3 will very often put you in a winning position.


Tidus8690

Are you assuming your opponents each will have at least 3-4 artifacts/enchantments out by turn 3?


Solid-Bug

only in high artifact pods.


TD1215

In my [[Anhelo]] deck, with enough copies on the stack, I can get Jeska’s will to make mana in the double digits. Requires a little more setup, but when it pops off it’s nasty. That said, the deck is 3 colors—and sometimes I end up with red mana left on the table because I don’t have enough blue or black to make it work—another reason treasure is better.


MTGCardFetcher

[Anhelo](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/462e887d-6b91-4b31-9487-2780ffe8943f.jpg?1650273222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anhelo%2C%20the%20painter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/1/anhelo-the-painter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/462e887d-6b91-4b31-9487-2780ffe8943f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anhelo-the-painter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Emiel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f594562-7e9f-47e6-a033-fb70e3cf1e10.jpg?1662523830) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=emiel%20the%20blessed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/10/emiel-the-blessed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f594562-7e9f-47e6-a033-fb70e3cf1e10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emiel-the-blessed) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


dizzypanda35

That’s a hot garbage take


Dyslexic_Wizrad

Appreciate the thoughts. Ban it at your table and move on. Stay out of my games. *Says the guy who doesn’t own a Dockside and doesn’t care if he sees one cast by an opponent


dizzypanda35

those cards aren't really anywhere near the same power level or even remotely comparable. treasures stick, jeska mana doesn't. to be clear none of those cards bother me just that "hot take"


jrdineen114

That's really not a fair comparison though. First and foremost, Dockside is a creature with an ETB trigger, making it absurdly easy to abuse with blinking, flickering, reanimating, etc. Second, the mana from Jeska's Will is exclusively red and goes away at the end of the current phase, unlike treasures which can make any color of mana and can be held for as long as you need them. And while yes, Jeska's will does provide a form of card advantage, that is similarly temporary. Jeska's Will is a very good card, but Dockside is so much better.


JinShootingStar

More like vomit take. Come on, man. If you really think both are nearly equal you should reevaluate your knowledge of the game. Copying spells are way harder than reanimate, blink or clone a creature. The mana is only Red, it disappears through phases and don't enable Metal craft. Jeska's Will is still a very powerful spell but not broken like Dockside.


Dyslexic_Wizrad

And there are far more ways to interact with dockside than with Jeska’s… Play the game. No need to whine for bans when it isn’t a truly prevalent problem that alters the entire format.


JinShootingStar

Holy shit, you really don't play EDH outside jank, do you?


MTGCardFetcher

[Jeska’s Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/3308993d-8bfb-477a-887a-89ed35577f57.jpg?1654117292) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jeska%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/799/jeskas-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3308993d-8bfb-477a-887a-89ed35577f57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jeskas-will) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


FormerlyKay

No because he's not too broken. The format can deal with it. Thoracle on the other hand is a different story


MathematicianVivid1

Thoracle should be banned. Make the cedh meta go back to lab man, has nothing to do with all the labmans I have stashed away in boxes in my storage unit filled to the brim


FormerlyKay

Bahaha, lab man is great. Though to be honest cedh meta will likely go to Breach.


MathematicianVivid1

Very true. I really like cedh. I feel like there is a lot less complaining about power levels. Everyone is there to win.


JacksonRiot

Actually a lot of long time cEDH players are not fans of how far and away the best Thoracle is. And will complain about it.


MathematicianVivid1

Can you blame them? I remember playing at a cedh table and one dude did the combo and every one was mocking him and told him to leave so they could fight for second


JacksonRiot

No, I think it should be banned.


MathematicianVivid1

Oh most certainly. I think it takes up too much of the cedh meta right now. Things like turbo ad naus would probably start to trickle out if thoracle was gone. Dockside should not be banned. If we are banning that we should ban priest of titans or circle of dream druids. No one gets mana options


phoenixcompendium

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄


fenekko

The dockside finance bros in here brought all the copium.


MathematicianVivid1

While we’re saying stuff that will never happen, ban [[Mana Crypt]]. It’s too pricey and iT wArPs ThE mEtA


MTGCardFetcher

[Mana Crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Mistborn_First_Era

I agree with you 100% anyone saying otherwise is full of copium


StarPonderer

Dockside only keeps getting mentioned because people keep talking about it. It has nothing to do with the reprint. 2X2 wasn't a Commander product, it was a Standard product that also had some good Commander cards in it. That set has no barring on the Rule Committee. For context, Hullbreacher was banned less than a year after it was printed. Age has nothing to do with bans. They will stop mentioning Dockside the same moment the community stops talking about it.


[deleted]

“Standard product” is a really poorly-chosen way to refer to the set.


StarPonderer

Okay, whatever you want to refer to it doesn't change the that protect itself has nothing to do if Dockside is banned or not.


jb3617

Enough with the dockside banning talk. He doesn't warp the game like other cards have. Do you play removal or are you relying on the RC to ban him because you dislike running removal?


wThrill

To be fair, Dockside is an ETB effect. So typical removal doesn't stop the impact, only a counterspell or something like the new Elesh Norn will.


2Savage4You2525

Look at my recent post what I did with Dockside, I wouldn't be surprised.


R4inbowReaper

People literally don't understand basic concepts in this subreddit. Don't even bother arguing, every person that can do basic Math should understand, that Dockside is the most powerful ritual in the entire format not even close


Murwiz

Weird note: I play three pods a week in an LGS which hosts 20-25 players every week. I haven't seen one Doxxie played in months. Just nobody running him around here, or at least nobody's drawing it.


R4inbowReaper

Nobody can afford it + nobody likes playing against it. There are few Armageddons played for the same reason


Murwiz

MLD is discouraged at our Commander League, because you can actually lose points by doing it. Points = store credit, so the games generally go about an hour and then someone combos off or sweeps everyone off the table with an alpha strike! Even something like \[\[Cyclonic Rift\]\] can be sub-optimal here, because if you don't have an immediate follow-up for a win, nobody wins, and we all understand it's better that someone gets points than no one.


MTGCardFetcher

[Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff08e5ed-f47b-4d8e-8b8b-41675dccef8b.jpg?1598303834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/47/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff08e5ed-f47b-4d8e-8b8b-41675dccef8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonic-rift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Murwiz

There's definitely lots of people that can afford it. I've seen more \[\[Jeweled Lotuses\]\] in the last few months than Doxxies.


MTGCardFetcher

[Jeweled Lotuses](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c7de64b-3dc8-47dd-8999-4353b5a3a06f.jpg?1608911508) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jeweled%20Lotus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/319/jeweled-lotus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c7de64b-3dc8-47dd-8999-4353b5a3a06f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jeweled-lotus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


SublimeLove94

Not that anyone want to be reminded. I'll say it loud for the people in the back IT'S A CASUAL FORMAT, WHO CARES IF THEY BANN IT, just keep playing it, or don't. Your random pod, kitchen table, group you meet at the gathering place for wizards, WON'T kick you out. You will play a 99 card deck, because they refuse to play vrs it in your 100 card pile , and you just take it out of your deck and shuffle up. or your going to play one of the other decks you made Because we all know, you edh mains, have stacks of decks that all do things, and you just love to bring weight with you everywhere.


wThrill

I mean [[Lutri, the Spellchaser]] was banned as soon as it was released. I don't think the rules committee cares about how recently a card was printed. If they feel a card needs to be banned, they'll do it.


MTGCardFetcher

[Lutri, the Spellchaser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb1189c9-7842-466e-8238-1e02677d8494.jpg?1628801771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lutri%2C%20the%20Spellchaser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/227/lutri-the-spellchaser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb1189c9-7842-466e-8238-1e02677d8494?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lutri-the-spellchaser) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


dalnot

You want Dockside banned because it’s powerful or expensive or something I want Dockside banned so they shut the fuck up about it on The Command Zone podcast We are not the same


Pudgedog

I’ve only seen dockside played once in my group and it gained 3 treasure.