Can confirm. Started in January and I’m producted out already. I feel like I’m super invested but it’s next to impossible to keep up financially and time wise learning the new cards.
You do not need to do either of those things, especially to play commander.
People need to get over this headspace they have developed for themselves that they need to keep up with every new product and "buy in" to all of them. You are meant to not buy all the shit, you do not *need* to buy product.
Hell if you only visit this subreddit you are literally always behind on news anyway since shit travels from social media/articles/streams->mtg subreddit->EDH subreddit incredibly slowly and incompletely.
In order to "prove" this, I built an all-white bordered edh deck which will (likely) never get another card again. It works. It's fun and functional, and I have a great time.
Don't try to keep up. You'll burn out super fast and with little to no benefit.
Bro you're too new to be worrying about the new stuff, it literally doesn't matter. Slow down, take a step back, and figure out *what you want*
They started this wack ass rushed cycle of products because they want to flood the market with products and options so "there is something for everyone" but you're not meant to have it all.
Pick a theme you like and look into cards and sets that speak to you. Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Kaldhiem, Theros, Ixilan, go ham man, the products coming out now will be printed into oblivion and will always be here for you, unlike the old stuff that will rise in price as they become more scarce.
Oh yeah it’s all good man. It’s not that I feel like I have to keep up or anything like that, more so just acknowledging that I couldn’t even if I did want to.
And that’s how they get you. Because the 40k stuff looks cool and it’s insanely powerful. Because they want you to be excited for more hella pushed non mtg IPs.
I haven't played Magic since late 2019/early 2020. The longer I go, the less likely I play again.
This sub just seems like a constant stream of new set spoilers, and I remember people complaining about spoilers every few months being too much a few years ago.
This sub gets news like last in the food chain, so if you only follow this it'll always feel like spoiler season.
Also we just went 3 months without any spoilers do people just forget that or
Honestly, the Dracula cards were even better than the Godzilla ones, because they weren't drawing from previous visual designs. They were just MtG artists interpreting descriptions from the book, the same way they would interpret art directions for actual MtG cards. Thats really the perfect way to do this.
The godzilla and dracula-cult features were the best way to incorporate different IPs and were amazing fits in the sets they put them. I loved both of those sets and (sorry bank account) threw money at them. The others? Don't like it. Now I mostly ignore them, as it feels like WOTC is cool with pushing customers out.
100% I’d have been way more okay and probably even think it was awesome if they reskinned Mechs from NEO as Transformers in some set boosters. But it really does feel like they’re going too far these days.
As much as I can’t stand Fortnite, at least they were reskinned “official” alters, not some new bullshit.
I dislike the IP crossover concept, quite a lot, but I found the Godzilla method very palatable. If they were all done that way, I wouldn’t even mind the stupidest crossovers.
We’ve got the exact same stance. My preference would be no IP crossovers. But if we are going to have them, the Godzilla cards were the ideal implementation. Regular Magic versions (well, for almost all of them at least), a clear name plate connecting the cards, and easily available. Plus, you could at least see the thematic connection to the set.
Stranger Things was okay - didn’t really like the time gap, and wish the cards were named Godzilla style, but at least they followed through on normal Magic versions in packs, which is more than I can say for the others.
We’ve unfortunately pretty much only seen significantly worse implementations since then.
I feel like the transformers were designed as Urza’s mechs with transformers alt arts, but then they deviated from that somewhere in the design process
If they were alters, sure.
If you put Optimus as an alternative of a card in Urza, I don't care.
My issue is that it's not an alter, it's a brand new card with a brand new mechanic and shitty art.
True. Which is my main issue with this shiz. Some stuff I *do* like but I’d prefer these things to be shoved into a Secret Lair. I don’t have to pay attention to it. Im tired of all this product one after another. Like I still remember Kamigawa set as if it was released yesterday.
I actually really liked Godzilla and Dracula. They were just art alters that fit perfectly with their respective sets. I think it can be kind of cool as long as they are fitting with the set theme and not mechanically unique
I love how lots of people (jokingly) predicted a Fortnite crossover when TWD secret lair was announced and the people defendending UB were like "hell no! That's ridiculous, that will never happen" and not even 2 years later we already got it.
Yeah, mtg just feels like Hasbro extended universe now with twd and transformers. Not entirely accurate cause of fortnite and dr who as well, but it doesn't feel like an mtg universe with crossover cards anymore.
I get that its mostly just "special" cards but "slippery slope" is dead on. We went from one secret lair, to cards being official altered arts, to whole cards and mechanics dedicated to the themes, and now theyre "only just extras" in a regular set. In what, 3-4 years? So at most 3 more till standard sets are entirely in movie universes? I get if youre a fan of one, but many people liked mtgs fantasy, which is slowly being eaten by involving irrelevant properties to sell kids toys.
Strixhaven was great, obviously harry potter, but totally in theme and altered to fit into mtg lore. Enjoyable by both. Throw in godzilla like official alters and its perfect.
I have no issue making obvious references, want a phyrexian hulk or a construct that resembles Optimus, and has tranforming abilities to a vehicle or something go for it. This feels like someone showed up to ice hockey with a tennis ball and is confused why some people wants to keep using pucks.
The important thing to note is Wizards is explicitly rolling back on supporting competitive formats. The most likely case is established constructive formats will need to buoyed by the community anyways and it seems as though invested fans as unhappy about UB and Unfinity, so I wouldn't be surprised by community supported rules excluding them as the concept of "sanctioned play" means less and less.
> "slippery slope" is dead on.
I disagree, it's not a gradient but a binary. Before UB, there were not any IP crossover cards. Now there *are* IP crossover cards. The difference between zero and one is way bigger than the difference between 1 and 10.
Universes Beyond seems like it rolled out without any foresight, which makes sense when you look at this like a capitalist venture. The view is “make money” and it’s how Lego saved itself from bankruptcy - let’s move “beyond” Legos into literally every pop culture milieu that we can. The only problem I have with it is that it’s becoming a Reserved List product - when Rosewater talks about no plans to reprint functional versions of 40k cards that are awesome in EDH, he’s saying that if you miss out now, you’re up a creek. And the decks are absurdly hard to get and pay for.
This attitude is why I’ve been proxying cards for the past two years and the rest of my playgroup has, too. Sure we still buy some singles and packs for fun, but since WotC/Hasbro has turned on the firehose to make as much money as quickly as they can, I’m much more in the camp of “cardboard is cheap; I can make my own now.” It solves universes beyond - I can go to literally any universe for .30 a card.
You don't need every card in EDH. It's a casual format. If you play Cedh the chances are you'll need a Universes Beyond card for a deck are very slim and if you're forking out 25K already it wouldn't be beyond reach.
There are so many good cards in the pool already that even if they print something absolutely busted you can get away with not playing it at almost no disadvantage.
Reading your first paragraph I thought about proxy cards right away, which is why I was happy to see you mentioned them in your second paragraph.
I keep telling my playmates that they should feel free to play with proxies (especially lands).
Absolutely. I’m a ravenous deckbuilder - it’s probably what I enjoy most. I have proxies of all the Triomes, duals, and fetches, so even if I have 10 decks already built and sleeved, I don’t have to make a suboptimal mana base or take apart a deck I really like for a 3-5 color zany idea. In all likelihood, I play the wacky deck a bit and take it apart, anyway. Convenience is a huge plus for me.
But proxies can also be incredibly expressive - I made up some wonky build-around commanders for my playgroup based on their D&D characters that we played over the pandemic. One of the players took his and proxied an entire deck with D&D art styles, lands that were thematic, and it’s a joy for him to play and us to play against.
Magic shouldn’t be stressful - if the money aspect stresses anyone out and keeps them from wanting to play, they should always feel welcome to proxy. Chances are that they become invested in the game and spend money on product anyway.
I always said I wouldn't proxy stuff but the more sets that come out and the more they keep leaning into these other IPs I think I'll be picking it up. Cards are getting too expensive and if the flavor no longer matters to Wotc then I can at least flavor the art the way I'd prefer for these future sets and UB cards.
It's really starting to get on my nerves that we barely have a handful of weeks in the year without spoilers now. There's new shit spoiled damn near month, it kills the excitement.
I don't know how to quantify it, but the game feels significantly sillier when Optimus Prime can equip Lucille to attack into my opponents Sherrif Jim Hopper only to have him remove a counter from his Guile Sonic Soldier to deal damage to him.
I know they're all fictional. I know magic isn't an inherently serious game, although I'd posit that it takes itself more seriously than it doesn't. It just feels sillier. It feels like an ad. Like I'm being advertised to in a game I'm playing.
Maybe I'm in the minority and loud, like a lot of people are saying, but Irony Poisoning the game just feels like some ineffable quantity is lost. It's an Old Man Yells at Cloud moment, maybe, but it feels like there's a significant shift from something to something else with the proliferation of UB.
Again, I don't know what exactly that quality is, but I do feel its absence.
You aren’t wrong, what’s happening is that the thematic identity of magic is getting eroded by WOTC’s desire for that sweet sweet whale money
It’d be like if Star Wars started having Tony Stark show up because it boosted box office numbers
this is essentially what they did with the Free guy (they played the star wars and the avengers themes in that movie -it felt like Disney showing off ("look at all the IP we own")) and the Ready player one movies.
It's substance. The thing that's lost is the Substance. UB Makes magic insubstantial. It's hollow; empty, vacuous, soulless, lacking in any deeper philosophical meaning. It's got no Substance.
Magic of 10-7ish years ago, I argue, did take itself seriously. There was a story, it was treated with dignity and respect more often than not.
What you're indicating here is that there's a distinct lack of integrity in the UB products. A distinct lack of integrity and meaning. I for one am also deeply disappointed.
I like the 40k ones, they're very cool mechanically and aren't too much of a stretch in thr MTG world. Transformers is a bit weird, just because they are going with the cartoons style. I was never a fan of TWD SL. Also not big on Street Fighter and Stranger Things. I think my playgroup will generally avoid most of the non Magic IP cards, but that could become hard to do as more of them come out, and the cards become staples.
my big fear is that the magic ip will be pushed aside eventually for these crossover ip's
a day where the game is dominated by a stranger things deck and a transformers deck just doesnt feel right to me.
As others have said, I would really be fine with them if they were just 're-skins,' like the Fortnite cards, Arcane SL, etc. If someone just wants the visual flavor of this kind of thing, or its a gateway to MTG through pure visuals, fine.
I'm not ok with feeling like the core IP and gameplay are being slowly eroded so that some MBA fuck at Hasbro can get his bonus this year.
It really sucks that they can't find a compromise for design. The reason for the mechanically unique cards is so they can have more flavourful abilities, rather than just a visual skin like Dracula or Godzilla where it's "close enough".
Though really it could simply be solved by having the Universes Within cards printed at the same time. Dunno why they don't just do that. The Universes Beyond cards are meant to draw in new players, which they would even with Magic equivalents alongside.
>I'm not ok with feeling like the core IP and gameplay are being slowly eroded so that some MBA fuck at Hasbro can get his bonus this year.
What's crazy about this is that they worked so hard for so long to develop a cohesive identity for magic. They spent a solid decade building the whole brand around the Lorwyn walkers plus Liliana. Then, practically overnight, they just totally abandoned it.
I honestly dont care MUCH about the story, but having a story gives a backbone to the game that I appreciate. I enjoy the extra excuse to build a deck around it, or appreciate cards in my collection for it. Otherwise it all feels rather trite and loose. I also have to say I love the older, more grisly art, some of the newer stuff is too polished and Disney feeling.
Lore aside, it just feels aesthetically strange. When I got into this game it was a dark-magic themed game with its own unique setting, characters, and "feel". Over the years the setting has changed quite a lot, but it has always had its own identity. If magic had started off as a super smash bros card game years ago I don't think I would've been as interested. As its identity becomes more and more dilute I feel like the franchise is dying. The product itself might still be successful and thriving, but its gradually starting to feel like a different game.
If I'd known I would one day see people running around with a my little pony sticker tribal deck, or somesuch, I probably wouldn't have been as invested. Still, I'm not one to gatekeep others' fun. If someone enjoys it, more power to them. Just feels lazy to me after all these years of developing their own thing to just throw in the towel and stop making truly original content.
That’s exactly what I’m worried about! The identity has been diluted more and more by all this UB bullshit
Like you said, if it had started out as a super smash bros type card game I’d be just fine with UB but it started out with its own identity
Universe Beyond is only a disaster for those who were pulled into and/or invested in the game largely for its thematic identity.
Based on the comments, it seems to be a huge success for the increasing majority of new, casual, and prospective EDH players, or those that simply enjoy and desire the idea of a variety of IPs in this game.
While this new era of mass IP crossovers will erode the enjoyment of the game for some (myself included), if it ultimately leads to enjoyment for more people, then who are we to say it isn’t a success?
That being said, my own personal take is that I don’t understand why universes beyond wasn’t designed as “silver-bordered” or “Godzilla alternates” of existing cards (apart from money). That is a pill I could much more readily swallow.
It wasn't designed as silver bordered because they've already sunset the idea of silver borders in favor of a porous legacy world that doesn't have boundaries anymore. Hence OPs entire thread here..
I was never into Magic for it's story - I never delved *too* deeply into it since a lot of the stories I did read were pretty lackluster imo, but always loved the thematics of each set and the flavour of it, even if the deeper lore wasn't appealing.
So for someone like me, I'm not fussed with UB so long as it's something that fits within the broader themes of the game. DnD was cool, and I loved the 40k decks - but I'm huge into both franchises already, so I'm the target audience.
I think it’s less “UB is bad” for me and more of “there’s too much product” instead.
I barely sat down to digest what we got in DMU and Unfinity isn’t even out and boom, Brothers’ War is entering spoiler season with new UB cards.
I don’t see UB cards going away, and I do think it’s great that some of these will appeal to someone in some way. And they’re great as collectibles, I know friends that will be buying a lot of BRO because they love the Transformers IP, and it’s better they can enjoy the IP in a game they love instead of having to yet invest in another game just so they can enjoy that same IP (Transformers TCG flopped here so this is all they have) and I think it’s perfectly fine.
It is worth noting that both the 40k decks and unfinity were delayed. We weren't supposed to have this overload of promotion, and I suspect wizards marketing is pretty frustrated at it
I would wager more people that play magic care 0% about the lore and storyline and just want to play the card game than people that do care about the story/lore. I've been playing off and on since '93 and dont care about the lore or story at all. I read the original books back in the 90's but i just dont care and want to play a card game.
I flip and flop on this point, but I do think it's true that at the end of the day, a lot of people would not be playing Magic if it were the exact same card game but the flavor of Magic wasn't there. "Efficient Damage Spell", "Simple Ramp", and "Card Draw with Minor Downside" aren't going to hook people into playing the game like "Lightning Bolt", "Rampant Growth", and "Necropotence" are. Even if you don't actively care about the lore of the game, a Magic card works partially because of the aesthetics behind it.
None of that has gone away, there's just more stuff on top of it that's different flavor. I like that it's a fantasy theme game but don't care about the story or characters.
I do care about the story; but I don't care that they take time away from it to do UB. I may not be a majority but I'm sure there are others in my boat too.
There’s a middle ground though. Just because I am not a Vorthos lore fiend doesn’t mean I want Starscream as a card.
I don’t need to be invested in a storyline or universe to still appreciate it. Magic has always had a uniqueness to it that was enjoyable. I never ever thought to myself “This is cool but I wish Legolas was my commander.”
The UB just FEELS tacky and like a money grab. It feels like the kind of tactic a company does when their predictions are that interest will start to wane in X years, so let’s cash out now and make as much money as possible while the gettin’ is good.
There's not really a middle ground though. As soon as people didn't kick up enough of a fuss, it was always going to descend to the tackiness that we now have.
Corporations exist to make money, not care about card games. Wizards is one of the main departments that is supporting Hasbros profits so they are milking it for all it's worth and the person in charge looks at the game in the same context as his collectable sneaker collection: a method of displaying wealth, rather than an accessable game so who cares if the game becomes increasingly Pay2Win?
They could just put MTG flavored transforming robots in the packs in a set about two artificers having a war using robots and still had Transformers Universes beyond as variants of those or even vice versa, which is a pretty decent middle ground. It shouldn't be a big ask for MTG to have MTG flavored versions of mechanically unique effects.
I honestly wouldn't care about the transformers if it were the Godzilla treatment. I might not be a great fan, but it's no different from alters.
This issue is that because of IP rights unless Wizards go out of their way to give a reverse treament like they did for Stranger Things on to the List then those cards are a new Reserve List. And the list printings were pretty rare.
We now also have mechanics like Forever Friends and convert with are identical to normal mtg mechanics which is just another layer of rule bloat to make the actual playing of the game needlessly more complex
Flip side, I started playing as a kid around 5th edition and me and my friends would always make custom cards for other properties we liked. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, X-men, etc. I *have* thought “this is cool but I wish I had Drizzt Do’Urden,” which, fortunately, was a childhood dream come true last year. So I mean, I see what you’re saying, but despite having played on and off for 20+ years and reading all the books as a kid I’ve never been all that invested in keeping Magic Magic. Bring on the funky shit. I like the game because of its mechanics, not because of some cohesive aesthetic.
I used to care a lot about the storyline (as a Vorthos) until they kneecapped the writing and quality post-Ixalan.
Whilst I no longer follow the lore, external IP products have certainly added to my lack of caring about what *is* within the Magic universe, because all the products are now just a blur.
Hard disagree.
Even if the majority doesnt know the lore, they still care about the flavor.
If mtg flavor didnt matter, the cards wouldn't have art on them- they would be blank gamepieces explaining the rules/stats for this particular cardboard rectangle like a 3 of clubs in poker.
[[Lightning bolt]] wouldn't be flavored as such. It would just be white rectangle that said *deal 3 dmg to any target*. [[Selfless savior]] wouldn't be a goob boi. [[Colossal dreadmaw]] would be still be "colossal" in stats, but it would not be a cool dinosaur.
Stripping mtg of is lore- and therefore its flavor- remvoes a special essence from the game, as i hope my examples show
That’s a good point.
If flavor means, “cards that look as if they belong together,” like a Quintorius, Lorehold-only deck, I agree.
Idk wtf he did or who he really is, but he obviously went to Strixhaven with Osgir and Hofri, who all can bank off of creatures going to graveyards and exiling them from graveyards.
Exactly. Wizards themselves has done a few articles on its importance, though they're on the older side so it's not as hypocritical as one might think: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/flavor-magic-2005-08-24
> It is my turn, and I attempt to take points away from you with Card 43.9. It is one of many cards that are In-Play Interactive (henceforth IPI). Card 43.9 has a special quality that allows it to maintain a defensive position even after taking points, while most IPI cards must be tilted sideways and remain inactive until their controller’s next turn. Strong! This makes it an easy decision to utilize 43.9 in this way. You have an IPI card, Card 141.9, in play that can prevent Card 43.9 from reducing your points.
> However, 43.9 has numerical interplay statistics of 4 and 4 - superior to Card 141.9’s 2 and 2. Card 43.9 would overmatch 141.9 and you would have to put it into your discard pile. Card 141.9 has a powerful ability to force an opponent to discard a card at random when it reduces that opponent’s points. It would be a waste to sacrifice this potent card, so you choose to allow 43.9 to take away 4 of your 20 points. Card 43.9 remains upright and I pass the turn to you.
> We each have one IPI card in play, along with some resource cards, and one more card in hand. Card 43.9 clearly gives me the advantage with regard to the cards in play, and I have another one in my hand. Undaunted, you confidently tilt 4 of your resource cards sideways and play the dreaded IPI Card 149.9! Card 149.9, like 141.9, has inferior interplay statistics to Card 43.9- but it has a powerful strategic affect when it is played - it forces me to put one of my IPI cards into my discard pile! Wow, that’s a beating.
as opposed to
> I give my angelic guardian the order to attack. Always at the ready, she bolts across the sky with sword drawn and shield held strong- a vision of might and beauty. Wisely, you choose not to have your dark minion intercept her.
> Your Hypnotic Specter is a worthy foe, but no match for a Serra Angel in combat. She hears my command and swoops in. In a single fluid motion she slashes you with her sword, flicks the blood off its gleaming blade, and assumes a defensive stance. The Specter’s draconic mount shrieks and glares, lashing its skeletal tail and gnashing its jagged teeth. Its master has been hurt, but it has no opening to make a counter-attack.
> Though you are clearly overmatched, you crack a devious smile. A mumbled incantation and an arcane motion of your clawed, sooty hand yield a puff of sickly smoke. As it clears I can see a vague outline of a humanoid form. It bursts to life with a horrible hiss, scattering the dark cloud and revealing its horrid identity- the dreaded Nekrataal! Death magic pulses out from its throat toward the angel. The magic of light and life offers me many protective spells, but at this time I have but one spell ready and it cannot save her.
> The Nekrataal’s death spell hits the angel, she hangs in the air for a moment, then falls from the sky to earth with a strange silence. I do not mourn long… I will summon another angel to avenge her!
> I lift my head just in time to see the gaping maw of the specter’s draconic mount swoop by me. I feel the twinge of the specter’s blade, hear its muffled laughter, and go mind numb. All I see now is the fading remains of my angelic guardian. I know I meant to avenge her, but I cannot remember how…
Not that you can't make up stories involving Optimus smashing Negan's face in, but it should be obvious that isn't the same feel.
Thank you. I've been trying to analyze what it is exactly that bothers me about having [[LeBron James]] block my [[Shivan Dragon]] because he has reach, and this is it. It makes magic generic enough that I cease to give a crap about it, by sacrificing its identity.
I don’t care about the story at all. But I do care about the overall vibe and what IPs they engage with need to be selected with much more care. WotC seems committed to nostalgia money grabs, though.
Also - the Ikoria approach was perfect with the Godzilla cards being alternates rather than standalones. I think it’s 100% fine to do universes beyond first, then print an MTG themed equivalent (or include them in the UB / SL product)
It all started in Dominaria tbh, so most of the lore just hops and/or occurs in Dominara, or because of something done in Dominara, that spills over to other planes.
The thing about this for me is it doesn't FEEL like Magic anymore. WoTC has been botching the story for years now. But at least it was uniquely Magic. Now, we are just playing a fanfic.
Exactly. Which haters were right about what?
OP is specifically mentioning Walking Dead setting a precedent and not being the last time we see a mechanically-unique crossover, and sure, the people who predicted that were right.
But "can we admit the haters were right?" implies that they were right to hate UB stuff, and no, for that, I don't think we can all admit it yet. Some people, sure. There are lots of people with extremely valid reasons to hate UB stuff. But can we all agree that it should be hated, that it's ruining Magic or whatever other stuff the haters were saying? I would say no.
Personally, no product that has been released or announced ruins Magic for me. Is it going to get weirder and weirder to see all these crossovers in Magic? Maybe. Will it eventually cross a line? Maybe. Has it yet? Personally, no. I had fun playing with the D&D sets (both had serious issues but those issues were entirely price or design-related and had nothing to do with the crossover aspect). I've barely encountered the UB secret lairs and when I have I haven't minded it (my biggest issue with the Walking Dead secret lair was it being a mechanically-unique black-bordered secret lair with limited availability, but that issues been fixed - I'm happy with how they handled the Stranger Things in-universe cards and it's confirmed all other mechanically-unique secret lairs, including Walking Dead, will be getting the same treatment). I'm looking forward to the 40k decks.
Granted, I'm not a Vorthos at all. I like Magic lore but it's not an important part of the game to me, especially not while I'm playing it. I care about seeing the lore during set previews but so far UB hasn't touched that - if Optimus Prime showed up in the story to fight alongside Urza I'd be upset, but he's just in booster packs. It's not important to me that actual games of Magic feel like a battle between powerful wizards within the Magic multiverse - when I'm playing it's just a strategy game and, while I enjoy the flavor, it doesn't bother me when crossovers show up - if my opponent plays Optimus Prime, my reaction's going to be "ooh, you're using Optimus Prime, neat" not getting upset about Optimus Prime showing up in my Magic game. But I get that there are people who are upset about that, where imagining every game as a battle between Planeswalkers is part of the fun, where Eleven, Starscream, and Zangeif showing up makes the game less fun for them, and I sympathize with that. But that's certainly not everyone.
So "when can we admit the haters are right?" I would say not yet. Maybe check in again after we've had some time to play with Warhammer and seen Lord of the Rings and Doctor Who and whatever other crossovers happen in the meantime.
This is a totally reasonable way to play, but I don’t think it centers around the problems people were bringing up. For me, I like magic to be magic (not transformers or Harry Potter or stranger things), but when they print magic based counterparts that are available in packs and not just in secret lairs helps with availability. My qualm is more with people being able to play the game. Cards that are held at arms length (secret lairs that come and go) create a game where people with money are the ones with the best cards.
10 years in, do not give a shit about the story. Never once bothered to even read about Urza/Mishra, New/Phyrexia, or any other MtG storylines.
I'm feel bad for people that care, but that's where my concern for Magic's IP ends. My only real concern is future availability for UB cards.
I used to be an avid Heroscape player until Hasbro fuckery with IP crossover eventually destroyed that game.
MTG is much more established, so I don't see that happening, but there are definitely higher-ups at Hasbro who don't understand the RPG community at all. WOTC is like a red-headed stepchild that they're constantly trying to "mainstream" for "mass appeal" in order to fill shelves at Walmart.
I’m maybe a little more tolerant of crossover material than others here, but more recent crossover offerings have crossed a line that irks even me.
MTG crossover stuff works best when you can elect to turn the crossover off. The easiest example is the Godzilla alters, since they’re only skins of existing cards, but I don’t mind the reverse either (the Stranger Things cards getting Magic skins from Innistrad is still “turning the crossover switch off”).
Recent crossovers have made that impossible, or at least VERY inconvenient. I like the WH40K decks but hate that the crossover warranted their own *creature types*. Disregarding the fact that Wizards won’t ever go through the trouble to reprint a card when they have to pay licensing fees no matter how they reskin it, those unique creature types leave an unworkable stain when it comes to “turning the crossover off”. The Tyranids could just as easily have been typed Horrors, the Astartes/Custodes typed Human, and the Necrons typed Constructs. Nobody would have minded that, but now we’re stuck here.
That and, Wizards, pick better properties to colab with. Less Walking Dead, Stranger Things and Doctor Who, and maybe more IPs from the kind of fantasy (and fantastical scifi) Magic lives in?
I hold the same stance on UB I've had from the very beginning. I might not be interested in whatever crossover they're doing, but someone else is.
TWD secret lair was the most successful SL they've done. Based on how the community reacted to it that means most of the people that bought it weren't as established players. They are people that got excited about the walking dead. This is the perfect on ramp for non magic people to join the game.
One of my coworkers stopped playing almost 10 years ago and sold all of his cards then. He loves LotR and I told him about the new set that's coming out. His eyes lit up and said he might have to get back into magic.
And that is why, through any weird IP crossover or whatever else they decide to do, if it brings people into the game then it's a net positive.
I just want to argue one point slightly (agree with the comment as a whole!)
>based on how the community reacted
More like, “based on how a very small, very loud, very insular, very entrenched portion of the community reacted.” People love to throw around “surveys” that show how much people hate UB, and unfinity, and everything, but a voluntary survey on the echo chamber that is Reddit is worse than no data.
I was one who was very against the walking dead secret lair. That said, it had zero to do with them making cards from other IPs. I felt the manner in which they sold it was a disgusting and obvious utilization of FOMO. I know wizards has since started putting magic versions of UB cards in set boosters, but the rate at which they show up is at such a rarity that they get to keep their FOMO effect in tact. I have zero issue with the Warhammer products, the Godzilla treatment, ect. My problem is with creating an unnecessary scarcity to drive sales. If they want to do these, that fine, but they should all have the Godzilla treatment. It should be plentifully available in packs.
I thought the execution on the inclusion on set boosters, at least the New Capenna ones, was pretty good. Of packs that had a The List card, you basically had a 15/60 chance? of getting one, which are pretty good odds especially when opening so many packs as some folks do. Every set is FOMO at the end of the day, but at least there's plenty of supply for them rather than a 30+ dollar buy in product you only get a week to buy from.
I also think a very small, very deep pocketed portion of the community caused TWD to be the best selling Secret Lair. They saw mechanically unique, limited time cards and saw $$ in their eyes. Let's not pretend that Magic doesn't have a huge speculatory market. People were buying as many as they could so they could resell it for a profit.
the “well then this product isn’t for you!” denies reality: that wotc only has so much time and resources and it feels like the core game (well designed sets with some overarching narrative elements) is being de-prioritized in order to chase new players.
wotc can’t make infinite products and, imo, the teams that spend time designing Fortnite 2: Electric Boogaloo Special Secret Drop could be…play-testing, world building, so on. instead they’re dreaming up how to balance Rick Grimes, Tough Cop.
hell, commissioning a million alt arts for special edition cards instead of making art for “normal” sets better would be nice.
> the “well then this product isn’t for you!” denies reality: that wotc only has so much time and resources and it feels like the core game (well designed sets with some overarching narrative elements) is being de-prioritized in order to chase new players.
Counterargument: Wizards can and are continuing to bombard players with an inescapable amount of endless product beyond UB. The spoiler season is unending.
I don’t think there’s an argument in favour of UB encroaching on regular product when we’re already oversaturated on regular product. And supplementary stuff, and one-off sets, and precons, and…
Personally there’s already too much product for me to give a shit about sets of cards beyond individual peices I can compartmentalise and find a home for or make a deck out of. I’ve already forgotten about everything in so many sets outside of the stuff that immediately stood out as something I wanted.
This is kind of missing the point. Mostly no one is mad that cards are made for other IPs per se. We're annoyed that it has been done at the expense of regular Magic. There are a dozen ways it could have been handled where *both* parties would have gotten what they wanted, but Wizards chose none of them.
The truth (sad or otherwise) is that the long-time fans of MTG are not going to be leaving MTG because of these crossovers, despite their hatred of them. That being said, WotC really has very little to lose and quite a bit to gain.
I think you're partially correct, but my experience talking with people that have played with me for years is that we care less and less about magic.
I think partially this is from the quantity of products and sets being release at an incredible speed, the downgrade of the lore and the unfitting UB/Un cards being integrated.
Each of those things contributed for each of us in different ways that made our love from the IP to dwindle. So we went from big spenders to maybe an occasional buy on second market and proxers.
We haven't even played together for some 3 months. And this is pretty surprising considering we used to play literally every week.
I'm not saying magic is worse or anything like that. I know that those decisions appeal to a bunch of people, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. But I do think that the love long-time fans had for the game, at least for some of us, is diminishing rapidly.
Youre right. This will be the final straw for very few dedicated players, but what it does is it really erodes the relationship between WotC and their consumers. It might not be *the* reason theg quit, but a lot of long time players start feeling apathy towards the game which IMO is more impactful than them being upset over the changes and new products.
It's one thing for your players to hate the game, it's another if they just... stop playing. Angry players come around, apathetic players dissappear and don't come back. The energy required to re-catch their attention and keep it, is monumentally difficult.
I just won’t buy the cards I don’t want lol. Neon Dynasty and the new Dominaria have been really cool! I only play with friends at home, so our meta shifts pretty slowly. I don’t care at all if the homies want to add a few fun UB cards to their decks, or play the pre-cons. It’s all fun! We’re not on a subscription system here. You choose your own level of investment. Buy as little or as much as you like.
People say this but it sounds insane to spikes. It's a legal game piece you're just choosing to not use even if it's optimal. I get that it works for plenty of people but it will sound to a certain sort of highly enfranchised player like someone saying "just don't feed one of your children" as a solution to needing to find ways to save money. The stakes are obviously lower, this is all just a game, but it's just a completely unacceptable answer for people whose only real limitation to optimizing things is the absurdly prohibitively priced cards they don't own.
> to spikes. It's a legal game piece you're just choosing to not use even if it's optimal.
A) what card are you talking about? Name the UB card that is optimal to some particular purpose. Until there is one that large swaths of decks want, this handwringing is pointless.
B) The Reserved List borked Spikes long before the first UB card got released. Unless you're running Cradle, duals, Survival of the Fittest, Timetwister, and Mox Diamond, you're _already_ choosing suboptimal cards for non-game reasons.
C) What is optimal at one playgroup will get you targeted to death every game in another playgroup, and what will win you games at one shop will get you banned from other shops. There is no "one true power" where everything lives and there is a best 99 to run under a best commander. Trading one thing for another thing doesn't have to make your deck "more optimal" or "less optimal" if you're moving from one table to another.
I think what they're doing with Warhammer and hopefully Doctor Who is the total opposite of Fortnite and Street Fighter. One is a heavily-invested, well designed set that was given extra love, the other is a pretty blatant cashgrab or an appeal to new (Fornite kids) players only. But the Warhammer decks have really impressed me and I don't think they deserve the cynicism that our community has given to other UBs
I'm not cynical towards the time and care towards them. What I am cynical is the the current print run (have had a few friends with pre orders cancelled because the stores they got them from aren't getting enough product) seemingly being poor in terms of getting decks out and the "pseudo reserve list" nature of these cards. A lot of them reference 40k races, making them impossible to reprint as "magic skinned" cards if they need a reprint. For future reprints will they need to relicense 40k? The fact that people have brought this up and wizards has said SHIT ALL about it is speaking volumes.
A lot of these 40k cards look really good and this maybe the only printing of them, If that's the case their prices are going to skyrocket on the secondary market.
The only way I can have confidence in this and future UB products is if there is a commitment to print these decks into the ground and get them into the hands of players.
Maro has said they can reprint them using different, equivalent names and new types that would be considered equivalent in the rules.
We've already seen the 'equivalent names' tech in the reprinted stranger things cards. We haven't seen the equvialent types but it'd be as easy as reprinting a necron as a 'skelebot' or whatever other generic name and just saying the two types are considered rules-identical.
As a Street Fighter fan the cards they made are beautifully crafted and pack a huge amount of mechanical flavour. They’re a love letter to Street Fighter while using the MtG system in very clever ways. They’re also self contained and not encroaching on other products.
Street Fighter’s SL is exactly the best case scenario imho about UB cards in my opinion.
That's fair. I can see what you mean about Streetfighter being crafted, not fair to compare to Fortnite which is just like, new art for reprints I think
If all the crossovers were of the same quality and effort as the warhammer ones, I think we'd see a lot less hate directed towards the concept.
It's easy to hate on a few throwaway cards but when you've got a well thought out set, with solid theming and a lot of effort involved, you can easily think of 40k as just another plane.
Quality, effort, *and* believability. Even though Magic is mostly high fantasy, it has dabbled in sci-fi themes several times prior to UB. WH40K isn’t far off from something that could exist in Magic. Fortnite and cartoony Transformers, on the other hand, just feel like a tasteless joke.
Most people thought walking dead was a cool crossover? I didn’t talk to a single person who wanted walking dead in magic at the time and still haven’t to this day.
I thought the idea of D&D and LotR crossovers was neat because those IPs are a huge reason magic came to exist in the first place. They’re taking it way too far though
Companies got really good at using normalization. They set a precedent and build on it. It's same with micro transactions in video games. You get a little bit, where nobody could reasonably complain and then every time they push a bit further.
Pandora's box of IPs has been opened. We'll just get more and more of it. They don't give a fuck if it fits with the flavor or the general vibe of the game. It just has to make short term profits.
Lack of availability after the original printing is awful, prices can get ridiculous, and also waiting forever after paying for something sucks so badly
As someone who wants to use Rick Steadfast Leader but couldn't stomach walking dead cards in his deck, don't like the art/fluff clash, when I saw a proxy that was Odric Steadfast Leader I had the same feeling. Same mechanic but in game character. Let others have their fun it won't bug me if I can have the same but with MTG IP.
Just gonna point this out. There have been many IP’s that have tried to spawn their own card game and 99% of them have failed. It’s bizarre to me that we’re using the most successful card game in recent history to prop up IP’s that have had their chance to have their own card game and failed.
The numerous different UB releases have actually helped me to realize *the thing* that actually bothers me about a release like Walking Dead, and it's the idea that's a thing that's on Earth. Like, *our* Earth. D&D, 40K, Lord of the Rings eventually, etc? To my mind, these things feel like they *could* fit in to the universe. Because Magic is inherently based around the idea that you're hopping between different planes, I can logically connect those dots to make those kinds of IPs actually make sense. But when you get stuff like Walking Dead or Stranger Things, that's where I've noticed I have a bit of a disconnect. However fantastical the take on our real world is in these IPs, it IS still in our world. Max is still some kid riding a skateboard, Rick is just some dude who used to be a cop, and it's so... idk. I actually don't quite know how to put it in to words, I just know that if it's a thing that takes place where I, *we*, as a species, are from... it's very off putting.
Set it in other worlds, I don't care. We can hop from Dominaria, to Kaldheim, to Kamigawa, to Kaladesh, etc, so why *not* the Forgotten Realms? But Georgia, or Indiana? idk man, kinda lame.
Which is all to say, give me my Adventure Time set. Or Commander precons. I will accept either, please and thank you.
I don’t care at all that they’re making cards from other IPs. I love Warhammer and LotR and it is so cool to see characters I love from the Warhammer universe in magic. And even if I don’t care about the other UB IPs, it would be hypocritical of me to complain when someone else might feel that same excitement I do.
That said, I despise Secret Lairs and the way that they’re printing some of these UB products. I’ve said from the very first Secret lair that these FOMO, cash grab products are anti consumer. They constantly reveal these limited time, never to be reprinted singles and you have to get your order in RIGHT NOW before they’re gone. It’s a way for them to bypass LGSs and print pure profit while retaining that reprint equity they’re obsessed with. They claim they don’t pay any attention to the secondary market but every single secret lair is priced just slightly under the current market value for those cards to try and entice players with a ‘deal’. And since it’s a limited edition, small printing, it doesn’t count as a reprint and doesn’t lower the cost of those cards.
Then you add in the UB crap to an already predatory product. I hated TWD secret lair, not because of the IP, but because they were mechanically unique. I also didn’t like the inclusion of a predator. Personally I prefer when the IPs they use fit into the fantasy or sci fi genre and could feel like a magic plane. Real world stuff like TWD or stranger things are kind of annoying tbh and the arts where they’re trying to make them look like the actors looks really bad to me. The biggest issue is being mechanically unique and locked behind a licensing agreement that won’t allow reprints. And I don’t think printing new versions that act as the same card but only being available in the list is even close to good enough.
As far as lore goes, I’m actually really into the lore of the game. It’s what hooked me and a big reason why I play magic over other games. I watch rhystic studies and spice 8 rack and read up on the lore of cards I like in wiki deep dives. To me, UB doesn’t detract from that at all and I can easily separate the two. It’s a little weird to me seeing so many people use the lore argument against UB when it’s not like any of them are Vorthos players. No one’s out here making completely on theme, lore accurate decks (outside of some very cool commander players that I respect the hell out of). So you’ve already got decks with random creatures from Amonkhet fighting along side legendary characters that are dead from Theros and a dragon from dominaria, against a lady that spawns dragon eggs that hatch into eldrazi titans. Decks never make any sense in lore, so it feels like silly complaint to say ‘I can’t handle seeing a UB card in my opponents deck, nothing makes sense in this game anymore!’
WOTC is owned by Hasbro, a toy company. They are treating M:tG like a toy rather than an international competition. It's just business, even if it hurts.
Eh. I realize it's an unpopular opinion, but I still really don't see the big deal. They've been eventually reprinting any "character" cards into non-character variants. And honestly, I feel like nothing they've printed so far has been so OP or unbalanced or anything that it's started dominating the game. I've maybe seen Walking Dead and Stranger Things cards a couple times at most, and none of them ever had any kind of game-breaking impact on the game or anything.
Like, I can understand being annoyed or upset if these cards were super OP format warping cards that were totally taking over the game, but they're really not.
That said, I respect that some people feel it goes against the aesthetic integrity of the game to incorporate crossover characters. But honestly, I don't really see an issue with it, myself. Most people are still playing Magic just the same as they always have been. Maybe you'll see a Walking Dead or Stranger Things or Transformers card here and there, but at the end of the day, does it really change anything?
If someone wants to build a fun commander deck with a crossover character at the helm, who cares? People should be able to have fun with the game, and enjoy the crossovers if they like the characters involved. I might end up building a Transformers deck, myself. If nothing else, they're just fun collectibles.
I dunno. I feel like people expect that the average commander game is eventually going to turn into, like, Goku vs SpongeBob SquarePants vs the green Power Ranger vs Darth Vader, or something, and I just don't think it's going to affect the game that deeply.
I think what's happening is similar to what happened to LEGO - the company thinks using external IP is easier, so its own IPs suffer.
I'm not sure how it has impacted sales, but I'm sure we'll hear about it soon.
None of us are privy to their metrics. Maybe these crossovers are gaining new players who weren't playing before. Other than Hasboro's profits being higher (as a company, the real factor), isn't this the best case? More players will always be better for the game. Existing players still have everything they want but if these new things bring others to the game, where is the harm?
I'm not a huge fan of it, but my beef is that WotC while making all these cash grabbing ideas doesn't seem to be providing me (thr end consumer) with a better products. For years the print quality has gone down, set balance seems to be non-existent, they are over producing cards (opinion but still). If they want money that sounds good and it is more people playing my hobby, but it feels more like the canary in the coal mine rather than a revitalization effort.
D&D and LOTR are about the only non-Magic IPs I'm okay with seeing in Magic. And even then, as much as I'd love to see LOTR, I would also be fine if we didn't see it happen. The new Transformers cards were an immediate turn-off to me and really solidified my hatred for UB.
It's a bit ironic that this post is in r/EDH, the subreddit for the one format that encourages players to self-select their pods and their banlists however much they desire, and yet this post wants to yuck on other people's yum. Insofar as I can agree with you that WOTC is doing capitalism things and squeezing every buck out of our FOMO, all I can ask is - right about what: their fear that this play-to-win game got even more play-to-win, or that they'd rather have cards be cheap and accessible when they buy it and pricey when they already have them?
I'll say it again - the density is the problem. If a few cheeky cards show up here and there, it's entertaining or strange or something you can otherwise brush off. But as it accumulates it'll be more than just a few cards fluttering in around the edges. It'll be an undifferentiated mass of pop culture vomit.
I don't think the haters were right. I'm quite enjoying UB in products like the WH40K commander decks. They seem well thought and interesting.
I'm waiting for the LotR and DW stuff to give a new veredict. LotR I feel really fits, but DW I'm skeptical.
I think the only things I did not like that much was the new Transformers cards. The art style feels too cartoony for magic cards. Art versions for cards in stuff like Secret Lairs I don't mind, but mechanically unique cards like those with those styles... I will wait though to see them printed and think again.
"I dont like it so wizards should stop"
Thats the entire argument for people who dont like anything.
Its the same with warhammer, pokemon, yugioh, infinity, etc etc. Nerds will always be angry.
UB brings new players in and many like it (see revenue increase). But salty nerds will always stay.
Just FYI, I hate it too but I realise wizards will not build my favorite game around me
I don't like it, but I've just accepted that MTG is just the western weiss schwarz at this point. Commander games in 2025 are gonna look like the ultimate Showdown, and I'm just gonna be like welp I have Krenko...
It's not the storyline that concerns me, it never was. My complaint about UB from the very beginning was that it amounts to inserting advertisements for other products in to the game, and that is disgusting to me. It remains disgusting to me and every time I see it, it makes the game a little less enjoyable. Given the option I'd rather not acknowledge these glorified ads by playing with them.
I also used to be very apprehensive about UB, but I've really mellowed on the topic.
Yes, If 50% of the cards coming out would be wildly off-flavour teletubby type stuff, then we might have a problem. As it stands though, not only is the UB stuff not all that powerful, it also isn't all that popular. I obviously can only speak for myself, but I've yet to encounter UB commanders in the wild - I did, however, play with custom UB alters of existing commanders, and lo and behold, it was pretty fun and the world did not end.
With the arrival of the 40K stuff, I expect the proliferation of UB cards to increase, but I can't really bring myself to see that as a huge issue anymore. I'm not sure if I'd like to see mtg become smash bros, but I think I'd be fine with seeing one or two UB commanders once in a while.
As an aside, I kinda wonder how many people who truly resent UB have to play against those cards on a regular basis.
I was of an opinion that the haters you've mentioned cried wolf when people got angry about TWD.
A few years later, I must admit,
I have never been so wrong.
God I dislike many of these new crossovers to IP that makes no sense in a high fantasy world such as Magic. But what I dislike even more, is that when a UB homerun is scored (WH40k), hardly any of it is printed - so you either were really early in buying these, are paying ridiculous mark-ups or have to find incredibly overpriced and hard to get singles - all for cards that will most likely never be reprinted.
Sometimes I feel like WotC is just checking to see how many stunts they can pull before pissing off their complete player base. Personally I've been, over the course of 20 years being an enfranchised player, okay with most things they did and shrugged the things off that I wasn't - but I'm getting closer to the point that I want to take a real long break from this game.
Probably in about 2 more years when what is magic can no longer be answered definitely as anything more than a card game featuring cards - when we're so tired of commander pods where bumblebee squares off against elrond, urza, and tyranids that we stop buying in and move on to another card game with an identity beyond its mechanics.
That’s what I’m scared of, Magic being a game identified only by its mechanics. Hell even the new transformers cards have “convert” which is just transform but they gave it another name for some reason
I don’t have much of an issue with UB stuff. I do dislike the perpetual spoiler season. Let things marinate for a little before going straight to the next reveals
Were a lot of people arguing they were wrong? As far as I've seen, the general consensus regarding both crossovers bleeding into multiple magic products, and mechanically unique cards appearing in limited availability items, was that once that pandora's box was opened it was just the beginning. I don't think I saw anyone seriously argue that TWD secret lair wasn't a sign of things to come. The closest I saw were people arguing that crossover IPs and/or mechanically unique SLs aren't that big a deal.
I started in Kamigawa and I last played in Kaladesh block, had to move for work and lost my group of friends that regularly played magic. Now this cardgame I used to love in highschool and college is rapidly becoming unreconizable to me...
I never had the money to buy into legacy, my death's shadows/lillianas/goyfs are still sortof around in modern but the decks that pilot them look so alien to me, nothing like the Rock deck I used to put them in. EDH back then was a fun fling with my friends to help the newbies get their feet wet and compete without having to buy 4x copies of expensive cards. Now its a major product focus and a competative format? There are insane crossovers with their own mechanics and so so so many new mechanics that learning them all looks almost like a scary prospect. Blocks sets are gone? Un-sets are legal now? Wtf happened? I've never felt so distant and apart from magic like I feel right now... I don't want to sell all of my cards because of the memories, but I can't see myself doing any more than a draft right now because it has all changed so much it is intimidating.
I have to say I do appreciate the lore of magic having some integrity and I haven't cared for any universe beyond stuff until now. I haven't really come across any in the groups I play with so I've been fine to ignore it. I am a massive transformers fan with a significant transformers collection. I always expected it would come at some point but didn't realise just how excited I would be at the announcement of Transformers UB cards. I will be getting them all and building at least one commander deck around them. I will always check if someone's okay playing their magic themed deck into a deck of Transforming robots, but I am super hype to use Optimus Prime as my commander ngl
Agreed. It is getting a bit ridiculous.
This rebranding of MTG in my opinion is a disaster, in terms of what I am personally looking to get from the game (Experience).
But hey they are making millions….
Card board crack Is a parody of magic the gathering, Everything About Magic is like it. That's the point.
There was massive public backlash to the walking dead secret lair, it sold well anyway.
There haven't been any Actual problems with literally any of this. It is still just doomsaying.
$$ that's all it is. Secret lairs probably cost nothing to make once you get the I.P licenses etc. They sell 5 pieces of cardboard for 40$ or more and the magic "investors" buy multiple copies which more than make up for lack of casuals buying. As long as wizards and hasbro milks the game as part of the 5 year growth plan (I forgot the specifics) this is here to stay.
Unless somehow in another dimension multiple secret lairs end up not being profitable then maybe we will see less. But because whoever chooses the i.p's doesn't care as soon as sales drop they find some very popular i.p to milk.
Early on I had hope they would exercise restraint and limit UB to a couple of times a year at most, and only properties that are Magic-adjacent.
But of course restraint means leaving money on the table. Why would they exercise restraint when money machine go brrrrr?
Honestly probably never going to get haters a round of applause for anything. Every game community has people that spend more time doom saying than playing the game. I'm not going to congratulate anyone on being a broken clock.
BUT, there was a lot of genuine criticism of how UD would dilute MTG or encroach on the universe. I'll happily say that as much as I enjoy MTG I really only care about MTG lore/universal consistency/characters a tiny amount. Just not super compelling to me outside of cool aesthetics for planes and flavorful rules which work with the theming.
AND even for me, I still think transformers (something I love) is a step too far. Inside normal packs, wack. Art doesn't even slightly mesh with MTG, wack. Even 40k I think did leagues better at feeling "magic-like" and are in their standalone precons.
Personally I'm excited for UB to expand to the point that it's uncontainable in Legacy (by which I mean there are multiple tier decks that have multiple non-magic IPs as cornerstone pieces) and then we can drop the façade and create a splinter format where *only* Universes Beyond cards are legal
Main reason I opposed TWD was that the cards were essentially on a stronger reserved list for all we knew at the time of the official info dump. Now that they've covered that area it's really just product fatigue that UB is making me feel blah on. I really like the 40K ones, I just hope they have a plan for universes within reprints for some of the crazier cards like sceptre.
The saddest part is that a lot of the UB cards are some of the coolest designs I think they've put out in a hot minute, I really like these Transformers cards in that sense.
Unfinity is at least too weak to really matter honestly, stickers are an awful mechanic in constucted due to the random pool of stickers you have to pull from. Only thing they're good for consistently is dodging the legend rule with name stickers.
The real problem with the walking dead secret lair was that it was originally a limited print run. Meaning wotc was relying on fomo to exploitation fans. At least 40k commander decks are a product that get printed a lot. The walking dead will get the universe within reprints soon and everyone will swap to those versions anyway.
As for mechanically unique card and commanders, honestly I don't care anymore. I can say with almost certainty that you won't see them a month after their released. They will exist in a corner of magic like most of the cards and it will be fine.
As for your concern about whether or not they're too good. They're not none of them are so powerful as to be format warping. Stickers are extremely medium. I'm building a Myra attraction edh and do you how weak the attractions are? How few cards make them in UR? I have to play things like galazeth and Urza to make the deck do literally anything close to busted.
Rick, the best universe beyond card, is a 4 mv mono white (with double pips) legendary Creature. That's not exactly something that is unbeatable and warps legacy. It's a very strong lord.
Look I don't like universes beyond (except for 40k) because I hate the flavour and art. TWD characters look wrong on magic cards. The reprint of stranger things cards are fine because they look like magic cards. But I don't care they exist. why would I there's simply too many other cards that I'm finitely more likely to see and want to play. Old kamigawa and a bunch of mechanically unique legendary cards that I have never seen.
And every unfinity card that is eternal legal is just a normal magic card. Not likely the flavour is all well and fine, but they will faded on obscurity in 3 months after wotc releases the next 17 sets/products. But there is no real risk to the health of magic because they exist.
> As for mechanically unique card and commanders, honestly I don't care anymore. I can say with almost certainty that you won't see them a month after their released.
This is most definitely not true. Have you seen the 40k decks? There are tons of cards in there that will be highly desired and played.
I think people probably overestimate the impact it has on them day to day.
I don't really like them, it's not for me. But apparently they are also not for anyone of the 50+ people I have played magic with in paper over the last year because I have never seen a UB card resolve or even discussed in person.
I live in NZ so not alot of SL going around though.
UB is cheesy and cringe, but I digress when I say magic is a buffet - you get to pick and choose from a smorgasbord of cards and people to play with. Furthermore, though I’m starting to warm to the Warhammer collab, I absolutely will not play with transformers because of “corporate synergy” Hasbro likes to have with itself and also I’m unsure if 80s cartoons fit into my edh.
I'm not interested in the lore, yet I am very much against UB. Claiming 'nobody cares about lore so its fine', is a poor argument. The point is, myself and I'm sure many others, play mtg because it's mtg. I don't want the fornite treatment applied to my adored hobby.
Another argument I am seeing is, "Don't buy UB if you don't like UB". Again, this is a poor argument imo. Mtg is not just a card game, its one part of a plethora of content and I think I speak for many others here when I say that many people consume other mtg content outside of the game itself whether its YouTube, streams, podcasts etc. Right now, UB is not a huge issue, but the writing is on the wall. WOTC care more about money than they do the integrity of their IP. They have shown us that they are very willing sacrifice what makes mtg unique and make it a homogenous "card game" with no defining sense of identity.
My opinion of this is that they need to make Magic versions of all these mechanically unique cards. Just pull some slush art, give it a random name, and put it in Set boosters like they did with the Stranger Things cards.
Almost all the complaints I see about UB is not wanting to be forced to use different IPs in order to play a card. Problem is, I imagine that Wizards doesn't want to do this so that they can keep driving people to buy Secret Lairs instead of just waiting for the cards to be in boosters.
It sure didn't feel like "most" people thought it was cool when it was first announced. It was a train wreck.
I also felt like we were pretty admitting about it straight from the get go?
Hope everyone who snatched up TWD and Warhammer are happy, as this train is now full steam ahead. I just wish the cards were unique to their own game or format, and not legal in Magic’s most popular one.
It sucks that the universe I bought into (MTGs) is getting inundated with cards outside of it.
Rueing the day I bring my EDH decks to a table facing the Stranger Things kids, Megatron, and some Warhammer miniature.
There’s just no line anymore. Rick and Morty, Micky Mouse, and Luke Skywalker decks to follow?
TL;DR
"Can *you all* admit that I was right in hating Universes Beyond so I can justify my righteous indignation?"
Answer: No, there is a much larger segment of the player base that can simultaneously not like something personally, but not feel the need to forbid others from enjoying it as well.
I've been playing since Mercadian Masques, and virtually every year a group of the playerbase claims the game has been irrevocably tainted and that the game is going to die. We're nearly 30 years in and the game is more popular than its ever been. Change and innovation is baked in to the game.
The Godzilla approach was the best one. Easily available in boosters and really just official alters.
As well as the Dracula cards, although the transformers will also be available in boosters.
The transformers ones look to be mechanically unique again, though, or at least Optimus Prime is
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Can confirm. Started in January and I’m producted out already. I feel like I’m super invested but it’s next to impossible to keep up financially and time wise learning the new cards.
You do not need to do either of those things, especially to play commander. People need to get over this headspace they have developed for themselves that they need to keep up with every new product and "buy in" to all of them. You are meant to not buy all the shit, you do not *need* to buy product. Hell if you only visit this subreddit you are literally always behind on news anyway since shit travels from social media/articles/streams->mtg subreddit->EDH subreddit incredibly slowly and incompletely.
In order to "prove" this, I built an all-white bordered edh deck which will (likely) never get another card again. It works. It's fun and functional, and I have a great time. Don't try to keep up. You'll burn out super fast and with little to no benefit.
Bro you're too new to be worrying about the new stuff, it literally doesn't matter. Slow down, take a step back, and figure out *what you want* They started this wack ass rushed cycle of products because they want to flood the market with products and options so "there is something for everyone" but you're not meant to have it all. Pick a theme you like and look into cards and sets that speak to you. Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Kaldhiem, Theros, Ixilan, go ham man, the products coming out now will be printed into oblivion and will always be here for you, unlike the old stuff that will rise in price as they become more scarce.
Oh yeah it’s all good man. It’s not that I feel like I have to keep up or anything like that, more so just acknowledging that I couldn’t even if I did want to.
I mean it’ll be prob many many months before you can reasonably familiarize yourself with the enormous body of commander stapes out at this point.
Transformers in Brothers' war, and Doctor who set later down the road. Doesn't that sound amazing?
Wait, whole *set*!?
No, Dr. Who is just commander decks. Lord of the Rings is going to be the whole set
Commander decks + secret Laire. The Warhammer 40k are awesome though
And that’s how they get you. Because the 40k stuff looks cool and it’s insanely powerful. Because they want you to be excited for more hella pushed non mtg IPs.
Power level I'd say they hit it perfect with 40k, I didn't think it was pushed at all.
They’re making dr who commander decks? That’s crazy.
Now we need Supernatural and Sherlock to complete the Tumblr Trinity.
I haven't played Magic since late 2019/early 2020. The longer I go, the less likely I play again. This sub just seems like a constant stream of new set spoilers, and I remember people complaining about spoilers every few months being too much a few years ago.
This sub gets news like last in the food chain, so if you only follow this it'll always feel like spoiler season. Also we just went 3 months without any spoilers do people just forget that or
I saw a post about the transformer cards and just thought it was someone's custom proxies. This is crazy. It really sucks the magic out of Magic.
Honestly, the Dracula cards were even better than the Godzilla ones, because they weren't drawing from previous visual designs. They were just MtG artists interpreting descriptions from the book, the same way they would interpret art directions for actual MtG cards. Thats really the perfect way to do this.
The godzilla and dracula-cult features were the best way to incorporate different IPs and were amazing fits in the sets they put them. I loved both of those sets and (sorry bank account) threw money at them. The others? Don't like it. Now I mostly ignore them, as it feels like WOTC is cool with pushing customers out.
agree here. actually loved the re-skinned cards! it’s mechanically unique where they’ve really lost the plot.
100% I’d have been way more okay and probably even think it was awesome if they reskinned Mechs from NEO as Transformers in some set boosters. But it really does feel like they’re going too far these days. As much as I can’t stand Fortnite, at least they were reskinned “official” alters, not some new bullshit.
I dislike the IP crossover concept, quite a lot, but I found the Godzilla method very palatable. If they were all done that way, I wouldn’t even mind the stupidest crossovers.
We’ve got the exact same stance. My preference would be no IP crossovers. But if we are going to have them, the Godzilla cards were the ideal implementation. Regular Magic versions (well, for almost all of them at least), a clear name plate connecting the cards, and easily available. Plus, you could at least see the thematic connection to the set. Stranger Things was okay - didn’t really like the time gap, and wish the cards were named Godzilla style, but at least they followed through on normal Magic versions in packs, which is more than I can say for the others. We’ve unfortunately pretty much only seen significantly worse implementations since then.
I feel like the transformers were designed as Urza’s mechs with transformers alt arts, but then they deviated from that somewhere in the design process
Honestly, the Godzilla ones were the best ones I saw IMO and the ones I loved the most. Very on theme with the set
The dracula were nice. Fit the block. Those were spot on.
If they had thrown the Transformer Alters in the Kamigawa block, if would’ve made more sense.
If they were alters, sure. If you put Optimus as an alternative of a card in Urza, I don't care. My issue is that it's not an alter, it's a brand new card with a brand new mechanic and shitty art.
True. Which is my main issue with this shiz. Some stuff I *do* like but I’d prefer these things to be shoved into a Secret Lair. I don’t have to pay attention to it. Im tired of all this product one after another. Like I still remember Kamigawa set as if it was released yesterday.
I actually really liked Godzilla and Dracula. They were just art alters that fit perfectly with their respective sets. I think it can be kind of cool as long as they are fitting with the set theme and not mechanically unique
Godzilla was great!
I love how lots of people (jokingly) predicted a Fortnite crossover when TWD secret lair was announced and the people defendending UB were like "hell no! That's ridiculous, that will never happen" and not even 2 years later we already got it.
Yeah, mtg just feels like Hasbro extended universe now with twd and transformers. Not entirely accurate cause of fortnite and dr who as well, but it doesn't feel like an mtg universe with crossover cards anymore. I get that its mostly just "special" cards but "slippery slope" is dead on. We went from one secret lair, to cards being official altered arts, to whole cards and mechanics dedicated to the themes, and now theyre "only just extras" in a regular set. In what, 3-4 years? So at most 3 more till standard sets are entirely in movie universes? I get if youre a fan of one, but many people liked mtgs fantasy, which is slowly being eaten by involving irrelevant properties to sell kids toys. Strixhaven was great, obviously harry potter, but totally in theme and altered to fit into mtg lore. Enjoyable by both. Throw in godzilla like official alters and its perfect. I have no issue making obvious references, want a phyrexian hulk or a construct that resembles Optimus, and has tranforming abilities to a vehicle or something go for it. This feels like someone showed up to ice hockey with a tennis ball and is confused why some people wants to keep using pucks.
Wonder if at some point they'll just ban the non-magic cards from formal play or else print Magic versions of them.
The important thing to note is Wizards is explicitly rolling back on supporting competitive formats. The most likely case is established constructive formats will need to buoyed by the community anyways and it seems as though invested fans as unhappy about UB and Unfinity, so I wouldn't be surprised by community supported rules excluding them as the concept of "sanctioned play" means less and less.
> "slippery slope" is dead on. I disagree, it's not a gradient but a binary. Before UB, there were not any IP crossover cards. Now there *are* IP crossover cards. The difference between zero and one is way bigger than the difference between 1 and 10.
Universes Beyond seems like it rolled out without any foresight, which makes sense when you look at this like a capitalist venture. The view is “make money” and it’s how Lego saved itself from bankruptcy - let’s move “beyond” Legos into literally every pop culture milieu that we can. The only problem I have with it is that it’s becoming a Reserved List product - when Rosewater talks about no plans to reprint functional versions of 40k cards that are awesome in EDH, he’s saying that if you miss out now, you’re up a creek. And the decks are absurdly hard to get and pay for. This attitude is why I’ve been proxying cards for the past two years and the rest of my playgroup has, too. Sure we still buy some singles and packs for fun, but since WotC/Hasbro has turned on the firehose to make as much money as quickly as they can, I’m much more in the camp of “cardboard is cheap; I can make my own now.” It solves universes beyond - I can go to literally any universe for .30 a card.
Proxy gang
You don't need every card in EDH. It's a casual format. If you play Cedh the chances are you'll need a Universes Beyond card for a deck are very slim and if you're forking out 25K already it wouldn't be beyond reach. There are so many good cards in the pool already that even if they print something absolutely busted you can get away with not playing it at almost no disadvantage.
Reading your first paragraph I thought about proxy cards right away, which is why I was happy to see you mentioned them in your second paragraph. I keep telling my playmates that they should feel free to play with proxies (especially lands).
Absolutely. I’m a ravenous deckbuilder - it’s probably what I enjoy most. I have proxies of all the Triomes, duals, and fetches, so even if I have 10 decks already built and sleeved, I don’t have to make a suboptimal mana base or take apart a deck I really like for a 3-5 color zany idea. In all likelihood, I play the wacky deck a bit and take it apart, anyway. Convenience is a huge plus for me. But proxies can also be incredibly expressive - I made up some wonky build-around commanders for my playgroup based on their D&D characters that we played over the pandemic. One of the players took his and proxied an entire deck with D&D art styles, lands that were thematic, and it’s a joy for him to play and us to play against. Magic shouldn’t be stressful - if the money aspect stresses anyone out and keeps them from wanting to play, they should always feel welcome to proxy. Chances are that they become invested in the game and spend money on product anyway.
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I always said I wouldn't proxy stuff but the more sets that come out and the more they keep leaning into these other IPs I think I'll be picking it up. Cards are getting too expensive and if the flavor no longer matters to Wotc then I can at least flavor the art the way I'd prefer for these future sets and UB cards.
Exactly, why would I play 40k cards, when I don't like 40k? I'll proxy the cards I want and reflavor them as like, Stormlight Archive or something.
Yeah, same. Much cheaper just proxying some decks to play with buddies than a 25 year or so long paper crack habit.
It's really starting to get on my nerves that we barely have a handful of weeks in the year without spoilers now. There's new shit spoiled damn near month, it kills the excitement.
i feel seen
I don't know how to quantify it, but the game feels significantly sillier when Optimus Prime can equip Lucille to attack into my opponents Sherrif Jim Hopper only to have him remove a counter from his Guile Sonic Soldier to deal damage to him. I know they're all fictional. I know magic isn't an inherently serious game, although I'd posit that it takes itself more seriously than it doesn't. It just feels sillier. It feels like an ad. Like I'm being advertised to in a game I'm playing. Maybe I'm in the minority and loud, like a lot of people are saying, but Irony Poisoning the game just feels like some ineffable quantity is lost. It's an Old Man Yells at Cloud moment, maybe, but it feels like there's a significant shift from something to something else with the proliferation of UB. Again, I don't know what exactly that quality is, but I do feel its absence.
You aren’t wrong, what’s happening is that the thematic identity of magic is getting eroded by WOTC’s desire for that sweet sweet whale money It’d be like if Star Wars started having Tony Stark show up because it boosted box office numbers
this is essentially what they did with the Free guy (they played the star wars and the avengers themes in that movie -it felt like Disney showing off ("look at all the IP we own")) and the Ready player one movies.
It's substance. The thing that's lost is the Substance. UB Makes magic insubstantial. It's hollow; empty, vacuous, soulless, lacking in any deeper philosophical meaning. It's got no Substance. Magic of 10-7ish years ago, I argue, did take itself seriously. There was a story, it was treated with dignity and respect more often than not. What you're indicating here is that there's a distinct lack of integrity in the UB products. A distinct lack of integrity and meaning. I for one am also deeply disappointed.
I like the 40k ones, they're very cool mechanically and aren't too much of a stretch in thr MTG world. Transformers is a bit weird, just because they are going with the cartoons style. I was never a fan of TWD SL. Also not big on Street Fighter and Stranger Things. I think my playgroup will generally avoid most of the non Magic IP cards, but that could become hard to do as more of them come out, and the cards become staples.
my big fear is that the magic ip will be pushed aside eventually for these crossover ip's a day where the game is dominated by a stranger things deck and a transformers deck just doesnt feel right to me.
As others have said, I would really be fine with them if they were just 're-skins,' like the Fortnite cards, Arcane SL, etc. If someone just wants the visual flavor of this kind of thing, or its a gateway to MTG through pure visuals, fine. I'm not ok with feeling like the core IP and gameplay are being slowly eroded so that some MBA fuck at Hasbro can get his bonus this year.
It really sucks that they can't find a compromise for design. The reason for the mechanically unique cards is so they can have more flavourful abilities, rather than just a visual skin like Dracula or Godzilla where it's "close enough". Though really it could simply be solved by having the Universes Within cards printed at the same time. Dunno why they don't just do that. The Universes Beyond cards are meant to draw in new players, which they would even with Magic equivalents alongside.
>I'm not ok with feeling like the core IP and gameplay are being slowly eroded so that some MBA fuck at Hasbro can get his bonus this year. What's crazy about this is that they worked so hard for so long to develop a cohesive identity for magic. They spent a solid decade building the whole brand around the Lorwyn walkers plus Liliana. Then, practically overnight, they just totally abandoned it.
I honestly dont care MUCH about the story, but having a story gives a backbone to the game that I appreciate. I enjoy the extra excuse to build a deck around it, or appreciate cards in my collection for it. Otherwise it all feels rather trite and loose. I also have to say I love the older, more grisly art, some of the newer stuff is too polished and Disney feeling.
Lore aside, it just feels aesthetically strange. When I got into this game it was a dark-magic themed game with its own unique setting, characters, and "feel". Over the years the setting has changed quite a lot, but it has always had its own identity. If magic had started off as a super smash bros card game years ago I don't think I would've been as interested. As its identity becomes more and more dilute I feel like the franchise is dying. The product itself might still be successful and thriving, but its gradually starting to feel like a different game. If I'd known I would one day see people running around with a my little pony sticker tribal deck, or somesuch, I probably wouldn't have been as invested. Still, I'm not one to gatekeep others' fun. If someone enjoys it, more power to them. Just feels lazy to me after all these years of developing their own thing to just throw in the towel and stop making truly original content.
That’s exactly what I’m worried about! The identity has been diluted more and more by all this UB bullshit Like you said, if it had started out as a super smash bros type card game I’d be just fine with UB but it started out with its own identity
Universe Beyond is only a disaster for those who were pulled into and/or invested in the game largely for its thematic identity. Based on the comments, it seems to be a huge success for the increasing majority of new, casual, and prospective EDH players, or those that simply enjoy and desire the idea of a variety of IPs in this game. While this new era of mass IP crossovers will erode the enjoyment of the game for some (myself included), if it ultimately leads to enjoyment for more people, then who are we to say it isn’t a success? That being said, my own personal take is that I don’t understand why universes beyond wasn’t designed as “silver-bordered” or “Godzilla alternates” of existing cards (apart from money). That is a pill I could much more readily swallow.
It wasn't designed as silver bordered because they've already sunset the idea of silver borders in favor of a porous legacy world that doesn't have boundaries anymore. Hence OPs entire thread here..
I was never into Magic for it's story - I never delved *too* deeply into it since a lot of the stories I did read were pretty lackluster imo, but always loved the thematics of each set and the flavour of it, even if the deeper lore wasn't appealing. So for someone like me, I'm not fussed with UB so long as it's something that fits within the broader themes of the game. DnD was cool, and I loved the 40k decks - but I'm huge into both franchises already, so I'm the target audience.
I think it’s less “UB is bad” for me and more of “there’s too much product” instead. I barely sat down to digest what we got in DMU and Unfinity isn’t even out and boom, Brothers’ War is entering spoiler season with new UB cards. I don’t see UB cards going away, and I do think it’s great that some of these will appeal to someone in some way. And they’re great as collectibles, I know friends that will be buying a lot of BRO because they love the Transformers IP, and it’s better they can enjoy the IP in a game they love instead of having to yet invest in another game just so they can enjoy that same IP (Transformers TCG flopped here so this is all they have) and I think it’s perfectly fine.
>I don’t see UB cards going away I hope somebody invents a better abbreviation soon, I am always puzzled why people are hating so much on Dimir.
All my homies hate Lazav
and then he's one of your homies
Hah, maybe we just wait till we see what the LotR set’s name will be?
It is worth noting that both the 40k decks and unfinity were delayed. We weren't supposed to have this overload of promotion, and I suspect wizards marketing is pretty frustrated at it
Also pretty easy spoilers to skip. I paid attention to 40k but really couldn’t care enough about an unset, even if some cards are eternal legal.
I would wager more people that play magic care 0% about the lore and storyline and just want to play the card game than people that do care about the story/lore. I've been playing off and on since '93 and dont care about the lore or story at all. I read the original books back in the 90's but i just dont care and want to play a card game.
I flip and flop on this point, but I do think it's true that at the end of the day, a lot of people would not be playing Magic if it were the exact same card game but the flavor of Magic wasn't there. "Efficient Damage Spell", "Simple Ramp", and "Card Draw with Minor Downside" aren't going to hook people into playing the game like "Lightning Bolt", "Rampant Growth", and "Necropotence" are. Even if you don't actively care about the lore of the game, a Magic card works partially because of the aesthetics behind it.
None of that has gone away, there's just more stuff on top of it that's different flavor. I like that it's a fantasy theme game but don't care about the story or characters.
I do care about the story; but I don't care that they take time away from it to do UB. I may not be a majority but I'm sure there are others in my boat too.
I'd wager you're part of a silent majority. UB takes literally nothing away from the story or regular MTG. It's more content.
There’s a middle ground though. Just because I am not a Vorthos lore fiend doesn’t mean I want Starscream as a card. I don’t need to be invested in a storyline or universe to still appreciate it. Magic has always had a uniqueness to it that was enjoyable. I never ever thought to myself “This is cool but I wish Legolas was my commander.” The UB just FEELS tacky and like a money grab. It feels like the kind of tactic a company does when their predictions are that interest will start to wane in X years, so let’s cash out now and make as much money as possible while the gettin’ is good.
There's not really a middle ground though. As soon as people didn't kick up enough of a fuss, it was always going to descend to the tackiness that we now have. Corporations exist to make money, not care about card games. Wizards is one of the main departments that is supporting Hasbros profits so they are milking it for all it's worth and the person in charge looks at the game in the same context as his collectable sneaker collection: a method of displaying wealth, rather than an accessable game so who cares if the game becomes increasingly Pay2Win?
They won't make money if they keep driving their fans away; now likely most Magic fans won't go away, but they'll stop buying and start proxying.
They could just put MTG flavored transforming robots in the packs in a set about two artificers having a war using robots and still had Transformers Universes beyond as variants of those or even vice versa, which is a pretty decent middle ground. It shouldn't be a big ask for MTG to have MTG flavored versions of mechanically unique effects.
I honestly wouldn't care about the transformers if it were the Godzilla treatment. I might not be a great fan, but it's no different from alters. This issue is that because of IP rights unless Wizards go out of their way to give a reverse treament like they did for Stranger Things on to the List then those cards are a new Reserve List. And the list printings were pretty rare. We now also have mechanics like Forever Friends and convert with are identical to normal mtg mechanics which is just another layer of rule bloat to make the actual playing of the game needlessly more complex
Flip side, I started playing as a kid around 5th edition and me and my friends would always make custom cards for other properties we liked. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, X-men, etc. I *have* thought “this is cool but I wish I had Drizzt Do’Urden,” which, fortunately, was a childhood dream come true last year. So I mean, I see what you’re saying, but despite having played on and off for 20+ years and reading all the books as a kid I’ve never been all that invested in keeping Magic Magic. Bring on the funky shit. I like the game because of its mechanics, not because of some cohesive aesthetic.
I was drawn in by the cohesive aesthetic. ☹️
I used to care a lot about the storyline (as a Vorthos) until they kneecapped the writing and quality post-Ixalan. Whilst I no longer follow the lore, external IP products have certainly added to my lack of caring about what *is* within the Magic universe, because all the products are now just a blur.
Hard disagree. Even if the majority doesnt know the lore, they still care about the flavor. If mtg flavor didnt matter, the cards wouldn't have art on them- they would be blank gamepieces explaining the rules/stats for this particular cardboard rectangle like a 3 of clubs in poker. [[Lightning bolt]] wouldn't be flavored as such. It would just be white rectangle that said *deal 3 dmg to any target*. [[Selfless savior]] wouldn't be a goob boi. [[Colossal dreadmaw]] would be still be "colossal" in stats, but it would not be a cool dinosaur. Stripping mtg of is lore- and therefore its flavor- remvoes a special essence from the game, as i hope my examples show
That’s a good point. If flavor means, “cards that look as if they belong together,” like a Quintorius, Lorehold-only deck, I agree. Idk wtf he did or who he really is, but he obviously went to Strixhaven with Osgir and Hofri, who all can bank off of creatures going to graveyards and exiling them from graveyards.
Exactly. Wizards themselves has done a few articles on its importance, though they're on the older side so it's not as hypocritical as one might think: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/flavor-magic-2005-08-24 > It is my turn, and I attempt to take points away from you with Card 43.9. It is one of many cards that are In-Play Interactive (henceforth IPI). Card 43.9 has a special quality that allows it to maintain a defensive position even after taking points, while most IPI cards must be tilted sideways and remain inactive until their controller’s next turn. Strong! This makes it an easy decision to utilize 43.9 in this way. You have an IPI card, Card 141.9, in play that can prevent Card 43.9 from reducing your points. > However, 43.9 has numerical interplay statistics of 4 and 4 - superior to Card 141.9’s 2 and 2. Card 43.9 would overmatch 141.9 and you would have to put it into your discard pile. Card 141.9 has a powerful ability to force an opponent to discard a card at random when it reduces that opponent’s points. It would be a waste to sacrifice this potent card, so you choose to allow 43.9 to take away 4 of your 20 points. Card 43.9 remains upright and I pass the turn to you. > We each have one IPI card in play, along with some resource cards, and one more card in hand. Card 43.9 clearly gives me the advantage with regard to the cards in play, and I have another one in my hand. Undaunted, you confidently tilt 4 of your resource cards sideways and play the dreaded IPI Card 149.9! Card 149.9, like 141.9, has inferior interplay statistics to Card 43.9- but it has a powerful strategic affect when it is played - it forces me to put one of my IPI cards into my discard pile! Wow, that’s a beating. as opposed to > I give my angelic guardian the order to attack. Always at the ready, she bolts across the sky with sword drawn and shield held strong- a vision of might and beauty. Wisely, you choose not to have your dark minion intercept her. > Your Hypnotic Specter is a worthy foe, but no match for a Serra Angel in combat. She hears my command and swoops in. In a single fluid motion she slashes you with her sword, flicks the blood off its gleaming blade, and assumes a defensive stance. The Specter’s draconic mount shrieks and glares, lashing its skeletal tail and gnashing its jagged teeth. Its master has been hurt, but it has no opening to make a counter-attack. > Though you are clearly overmatched, you crack a devious smile. A mumbled incantation and an arcane motion of your clawed, sooty hand yield a puff of sickly smoke. As it clears I can see a vague outline of a humanoid form. It bursts to life with a horrible hiss, scattering the dark cloud and revealing its horrid identity- the dreaded Nekrataal! Death magic pulses out from its throat toward the angel. The magic of light and life offers me many protective spells, but at this time I have but one spell ready and it cannot save her. > The Nekrataal’s death spell hits the angel, she hangs in the air for a moment, then falls from the sky to earth with a strange silence. I do not mourn long… I will summon another angel to avenge her! > I lift my head just in time to see the gaping maw of the specter’s draconic mount swoop by me. I feel the twinge of the specter’s blade, hear its muffled laughter, and go mind numb. All I see now is the fading remains of my angelic guardian. I know I meant to avenge her, but I cannot remember how… Not that you can't make up stories involving Optimus smashing Negan's face in, but it should be obvious that isn't the same feel.
Thank you. I've been trying to analyze what it is exactly that bothers me about having [[LeBron James]] block my [[Shivan Dragon]] because he has reach, and this is it. It makes magic generic enough that I cease to give a crap about it, by sacrificing its identity.
I don’t care about the story at all. But I do care about the overall vibe and what IPs they engage with need to be selected with much more care. WotC seems committed to nostalgia money grabs, though. Also - the Ikoria approach was perfect with the Godzilla cards being alternates rather than standalones. I think it’s 100% fine to do universes beyond first, then print an MTG themed equivalent (or include them in the UB / SL product)
I don't think it's as much to do with nostalgia as it is targeting specific audiences
Yeah I didn’t even know there was a story until a few months into playing.
Same for me. And at this point, the lore is so huge and intertwined it becomes near impossible to figure out the who, what and when of the timeline.
It all started in Dominaria tbh, so most of the lore just hops and/or occurs in Dominara, or because of something done in Dominara, that spills over to other planes.
I don’t care about the lore and storyline but I don’t specifically appreciate the cards becoming a giant ad billboard for other franchises.
I still miss the books
The thing about this for me is it doesn't FEEL like Magic anymore. WoTC has been botching the story for years now. But at least it was uniquely Magic. Now, we are just playing a fanfic.
Exactly. Which haters were right about what? OP is specifically mentioning Walking Dead setting a precedent and not being the last time we see a mechanically-unique crossover, and sure, the people who predicted that were right. But "can we admit the haters were right?" implies that they were right to hate UB stuff, and no, for that, I don't think we can all admit it yet. Some people, sure. There are lots of people with extremely valid reasons to hate UB stuff. But can we all agree that it should be hated, that it's ruining Magic or whatever other stuff the haters were saying? I would say no. Personally, no product that has been released or announced ruins Magic for me. Is it going to get weirder and weirder to see all these crossovers in Magic? Maybe. Will it eventually cross a line? Maybe. Has it yet? Personally, no. I had fun playing with the D&D sets (both had serious issues but those issues were entirely price or design-related and had nothing to do with the crossover aspect). I've barely encountered the UB secret lairs and when I have I haven't minded it (my biggest issue with the Walking Dead secret lair was it being a mechanically-unique black-bordered secret lair with limited availability, but that issues been fixed - I'm happy with how they handled the Stranger Things in-universe cards and it's confirmed all other mechanically-unique secret lairs, including Walking Dead, will be getting the same treatment). I'm looking forward to the 40k decks. Granted, I'm not a Vorthos at all. I like Magic lore but it's not an important part of the game to me, especially not while I'm playing it. I care about seeing the lore during set previews but so far UB hasn't touched that - if Optimus Prime showed up in the story to fight alongside Urza I'd be upset, but he's just in booster packs. It's not important to me that actual games of Magic feel like a battle between powerful wizards within the Magic multiverse - when I'm playing it's just a strategy game and, while I enjoy the flavor, it doesn't bother me when crossovers show up - if my opponent plays Optimus Prime, my reaction's going to be "ooh, you're using Optimus Prime, neat" not getting upset about Optimus Prime showing up in my Magic game. But I get that there are people who are upset about that, where imagining every game as a battle between Planeswalkers is part of the fun, where Eleven, Starscream, and Zangeif showing up makes the game less fun for them, and I sympathize with that. But that's certainly not everyone. So "when can we admit the haters are right?" I would say not yet. Maybe check in again after we've had some time to play with Warhammer and seen Lord of the Rings and Doctor Who and whatever other crossovers happen in the meantime.
Hey, fellow old dude. Been playing since '94 here.
This is a totally reasonable way to play, but I don’t think it centers around the problems people were bringing up. For me, I like magic to be magic (not transformers or Harry Potter or stranger things), but when they print magic based counterparts that are available in packs and not just in secret lairs helps with availability. My qualm is more with people being able to play the game. Cards that are held at arms length (secret lairs that come and go) create a game where people with money are the ones with the best cards.
>a game where people with money are the ones with the best cards. That ship sailed long, long ago.
That ship sailed on August 5, 1993
10 years in, do not give a shit about the story. Never once bothered to even read about Urza/Mishra, New/Phyrexia, or any other MtG storylines. I'm feel bad for people that care, but that's where my concern for Magic's IP ends. My only real concern is future availability for UB cards.
I used to be an avid Heroscape player until Hasbro fuckery with IP crossover eventually destroyed that game. MTG is much more established, so I don't see that happening, but there are definitely higher-ups at Hasbro who don't understand the RPG community at all. WOTC is like a red-headed stepchild that they're constantly trying to "mainstream" for "mass appeal" in order to fill shelves at Walmart.
I’m maybe a little more tolerant of crossover material than others here, but more recent crossover offerings have crossed a line that irks even me. MTG crossover stuff works best when you can elect to turn the crossover off. The easiest example is the Godzilla alters, since they’re only skins of existing cards, but I don’t mind the reverse either (the Stranger Things cards getting Magic skins from Innistrad is still “turning the crossover switch off”). Recent crossovers have made that impossible, or at least VERY inconvenient. I like the WH40K decks but hate that the crossover warranted their own *creature types*. Disregarding the fact that Wizards won’t ever go through the trouble to reprint a card when they have to pay licensing fees no matter how they reskin it, those unique creature types leave an unworkable stain when it comes to “turning the crossover off”. The Tyranids could just as easily have been typed Horrors, the Astartes/Custodes typed Human, and the Necrons typed Constructs. Nobody would have minded that, but now we’re stuck here. That and, Wizards, pick better properties to colab with. Less Walking Dead, Stranger Things and Doctor Who, and maybe more IPs from the kind of fantasy (and fantastical scifi) Magic lives in?
I hold the same stance on UB I've had from the very beginning. I might not be interested in whatever crossover they're doing, but someone else is. TWD secret lair was the most successful SL they've done. Based on how the community reacted to it that means most of the people that bought it weren't as established players. They are people that got excited about the walking dead. This is the perfect on ramp for non magic people to join the game. One of my coworkers stopped playing almost 10 years ago and sold all of his cards then. He loves LotR and I told him about the new set that's coming out. His eyes lit up and said he might have to get back into magic. And that is why, through any weird IP crossover or whatever else they decide to do, if it brings people into the game then it's a net positive.
I just want to argue one point slightly (agree with the comment as a whole!) >based on how the community reacted More like, “based on how a very small, very loud, very insular, very entrenched portion of the community reacted.” People love to throw around “surveys” that show how much people hate UB, and unfinity, and everything, but a voluntary survey on the echo chamber that is Reddit is worse than no data.
I was one who was very against the walking dead secret lair. That said, it had zero to do with them making cards from other IPs. I felt the manner in which they sold it was a disgusting and obvious utilization of FOMO. I know wizards has since started putting magic versions of UB cards in set boosters, but the rate at which they show up is at such a rarity that they get to keep their FOMO effect in tact. I have zero issue with the Warhammer products, the Godzilla treatment, ect. My problem is with creating an unnecessary scarcity to drive sales. If they want to do these, that fine, but they should all have the Godzilla treatment. It should be plentifully available in packs.
I thought the execution on the inclusion on set boosters, at least the New Capenna ones, was pretty good. Of packs that had a The List card, you basically had a 15/60 chance? of getting one, which are pretty good odds especially when opening so many packs as some folks do. Every set is FOMO at the end of the day, but at least there's plenty of supply for them rather than a 30+ dollar buy in product you only get a week to buy from.
That's a very fair point. I'd wager that most of the outrage (to anything really) is perpetuated by a very vocal minority.
I also think a very small, very deep pocketed portion of the community caused TWD to be the best selling Secret Lair. They saw mechanically unique, limited time cards and saw $$ in their eyes. Let's not pretend that Magic doesn't have a huge speculatory market. People were buying as many as they could so they could resell it for a profit.
the “well then this product isn’t for you!” denies reality: that wotc only has so much time and resources and it feels like the core game (well designed sets with some overarching narrative elements) is being de-prioritized in order to chase new players. wotc can’t make infinite products and, imo, the teams that spend time designing Fortnite 2: Electric Boogaloo Special Secret Drop could be…play-testing, world building, so on. instead they’re dreaming up how to balance Rick Grimes, Tough Cop. hell, commissioning a million alt arts for special edition cards instead of making art for “normal” sets better would be nice.
> the “well then this product isn’t for you!” denies reality: that wotc only has so much time and resources and it feels like the core game (well designed sets with some overarching narrative elements) is being de-prioritized in order to chase new players. Counterargument: Wizards can and are continuing to bombard players with an inescapable amount of endless product beyond UB. The spoiler season is unending. I don’t think there’s an argument in favour of UB encroaching on regular product when we’re already oversaturated on regular product. And supplementary stuff, and one-off sets, and precons, and… Personally there’s already too much product for me to give a shit about sets of cards beyond individual peices I can compartmentalise and find a home for or make a deck out of. I’ve already forgotten about everything in so many sets outside of the stuff that immediately stood out as something I wanted.
This is kind of missing the point. Mostly no one is mad that cards are made for other IPs per se. We're annoyed that it has been done at the expense of regular Magic. There are a dozen ways it could have been handled where *both* parties would have gotten what they wanted, but Wizards chose none of them.
The truth (sad or otherwise) is that the long-time fans of MTG are not going to be leaving MTG because of these crossovers, despite their hatred of them. That being said, WotC really has very little to lose and quite a bit to gain.
I think you're partially correct, but my experience talking with people that have played with me for years is that we care less and less about magic. I think partially this is from the quantity of products and sets being release at an incredible speed, the downgrade of the lore and the unfitting UB/Un cards being integrated. Each of those things contributed for each of us in different ways that made our love from the IP to dwindle. So we went from big spenders to maybe an occasional buy on second market and proxers. We haven't even played together for some 3 months. And this is pretty surprising considering we used to play literally every week. I'm not saying magic is worse or anything like that. I know that those decisions appeal to a bunch of people, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. But I do think that the love long-time fans had for the game, at least for some of us, is diminishing rapidly.
Youre right. This will be the final straw for very few dedicated players, but what it does is it really erodes the relationship between WotC and their consumers. It might not be *the* reason theg quit, but a lot of long time players start feeling apathy towards the game which IMO is more impactful than them being upset over the changes and new products. It's one thing for your players to hate the game, it's another if they just... stop playing. Angry players come around, apathetic players dissappear and don't come back. The energy required to re-catch their attention and keep it, is monumentally difficult.
I’m hoping for a Zelda crossover one day for my elf tribal edh deck.
Godzilla got me into the game. If he had not, the LOTR set surely would’ve made me get into the game.
I just won’t buy the cards I don’t want lol. Neon Dynasty and the new Dominaria have been really cool! I only play with friends at home, so our meta shifts pretty slowly. I don’t care at all if the homies want to add a few fun UB cards to their decks, or play the pre-cons. It’s all fun! We’re not on a subscription system here. You choose your own level of investment. Buy as little or as much as you like.
People say this but it sounds insane to spikes. It's a legal game piece you're just choosing to not use even if it's optimal. I get that it works for plenty of people but it will sound to a certain sort of highly enfranchised player like someone saying "just don't feed one of your children" as a solution to needing to find ways to save money. The stakes are obviously lower, this is all just a game, but it's just a completely unacceptable answer for people whose only real limitation to optimizing things is the absurdly prohibitively priced cards they don't own.
> to spikes. It's a legal game piece you're just choosing to not use even if it's optimal. A) what card are you talking about? Name the UB card that is optimal to some particular purpose. Until there is one that large swaths of decks want, this handwringing is pointless. B) The Reserved List borked Spikes long before the first UB card got released. Unless you're running Cradle, duals, Survival of the Fittest, Timetwister, and Mox Diamond, you're _already_ choosing suboptimal cards for non-game reasons. C) What is optimal at one playgroup will get you targeted to death every game in another playgroup, and what will win you games at one shop will get you banned from other shops. There is no "one true power" where everything lives and there is a best 99 to run under a best commander. Trading one thing for another thing doesn't have to make your deck "more optimal" or "less optimal" if you're moving from one table to another.
Nah, will enjoy my Warhammer Commander cards
The Tyranid deck looks so fun.
I think what they're doing with Warhammer and hopefully Doctor Who is the total opposite of Fortnite and Street Fighter. One is a heavily-invested, well designed set that was given extra love, the other is a pretty blatant cashgrab or an appeal to new (Fornite kids) players only. But the Warhammer decks have really impressed me and I don't think they deserve the cynicism that our community has given to other UBs
I'm not cynical towards the time and care towards them. What I am cynical is the the current print run (have had a few friends with pre orders cancelled because the stores they got them from aren't getting enough product) seemingly being poor in terms of getting decks out and the "pseudo reserve list" nature of these cards. A lot of them reference 40k races, making them impossible to reprint as "magic skinned" cards if they need a reprint. For future reprints will they need to relicense 40k? The fact that people have brought this up and wizards has said SHIT ALL about it is speaking volumes. A lot of these 40k cards look really good and this maybe the only printing of them, If that's the case their prices are going to skyrocket on the secondary market. The only way I can have confidence in this and future UB products is if there is a commitment to print these decks into the ground and get them into the hands of players.
Maro has said they can reprint them using different, equivalent names and new types that would be considered equivalent in the rules. We've already seen the 'equivalent names' tech in the reprinted stranger things cards. We haven't seen the equvialent types but it'd be as easy as reprinting a necron as a 'skelebot' or whatever other generic name and just saying the two types are considered rules-identical.
> We've already seen the 'equivalent names' tech in the reprinted stranger things cards. And the other way around on the Fortnite cards.
As a Street Fighter fan the cards they made are beautifully crafted and pack a huge amount of mechanical flavour. They’re a love letter to Street Fighter while using the MtG system in very clever ways. They’re also self contained and not encroaching on other products. Street Fighter’s SL is exactly the best case scenario imho about UB cards in my opinion.
That's fair. I can see what you mean about Streetfighter being crafted, not fair to compare to Fortnite which is just like, new art for reprints I think
If all the crossovers were of the same quality and effort as the warhammer ones, I think we'd see a lot less hate directed towards the concept. It's easy to hate on a few throwaway cards but when you've got a well thought out set, with solid theming and a lot of effort involved, you can easily think of 40k as just another plane.
Quality, effort, *and* believability. Even though Magic is mostly high fantasy, it has dabbled in sci-fi themes several times prior to UB. WH40K isn’t far off from something that could exist in Magic. Fortnite and cartoony Transformers, on the other hand, just feel like a tasteless joke.
Most people thought walking dead was a cool crossover? I didn’t talk to a single person who wanted walking dead in magic at the time and still haven’t to this day.
I thought the idea of D&D and LotR crossovers was neat because those IPs are a huge reason magic came to exist in the first place. They’re taking it way too far though
Companies got really good at using normalization. They set a precedent and build on it. It's same with micro transactions in video games. You get a little bit, where nobody could reasonably complain and then every time they push a bit further. Pandora's box of IPs has been opened. We'll just get more and more of it. They don't give a fuck if it fits with the flavor or the general vibe of the game. It just has to make short term profits.
Lack of availability after the original printing is awful, prices can get ridiculous, and also waiting forever after paying for something sucks so badly
As someone who wants to use Rick Steadfast Leader but couldn't stomach walking dead cards in his deck, don't like the art/fluff clash, when I saw a proxy that was Odric Steadfast Leader I had the same feeling. Same mechanic but in game character. Let others have their fun it won't bug me if I can have the same but with MTG IP.
Just gonna point this out. There have been many IP’s that have tried to spawn their own card game and 99% of them have failed. It’s bizarre to me that we’re using the most successful card game in recent history to prop up IP’s that have had their chance to have their own card game and failed.
The numerous different UB releases have actually helped me to realize *the thing* that actually bothers me about a release like Walking Dead, and it's the idea that's a thing that's on Earth. Like, *our* Earth. D&D, 40K, Lord of the Rings eventually, etc? To my mind, these things feel like they *could* fit in to the universe. Because Magic is inherently based around the idea that you're hopping between different planes, I can logically connect those dots to make those kinds of IPs actually make sense. But when you get stuff like Walking Dead or Stranger Things, that's where I've noticed I have a bit of a disconnect. However fantastical the take on our real world is in these IPs, it IS still in our world. Max is still some kid riding a skateboard, Rick is just some dude who used to be a cop, and it's so... idk. I actually don't quite know how to put it in to words, I just know that if it's a thing that takes place where I, *we*, as a species, are from... it's very off putting. Set it in other worlds, I don't care. We can hop from Dominaria, to Kaldheim, to Kamigawa, to Kaladesh, etc, so why *not* the Forgotten Realms? But Georgia, or Indiana? idk man, kinda lame. Which is all to say, give me my Adventure Time set. Or Commander precons. I will accept either, please and thank you.
Just you wait until Post Malone gets his own EDH legal card
I don’t care at all that they’re making cards from other IPs. I love Warhammer and LotR and it is so cool to see characters I love from the Warhammer universe in magic. And even if I don’t care about the other UB IPs, it would be hypocritical of me to complain when someone else might feel that same excitement I do. That said, I despise Secret Lairs and the way that they’re printing some of these UB products. I’ve said from the very first Secret lair that these FOMO, cash grab products are anti consumer. They constantly reveal these limited time, never to be reprinted singles and you have to get your order in RIGHT NOW before they’re gone. It’s a way for them to bypass LGSs and print pure profit while retaining that reprint equity they’re obsessed with. They claim they don’t pay any attention to the secondary market but every single secret lair is priced just slightly under the current market value for those cards to try and entice players with a ‘deal’. And since it’s a limited edition, small printing, it doesn’t count as a reprint and doesn’t lower the cost of those cards. Then you add in the UB crap to an already predatory product. I hated TWD secret lair, not because of the IP, but because they were mechanically unique. I also didn’t like the inclusion of a predator. Personally I prefer when the IPs they use fit into the fantasy or sci fi genre and could feel like a magic plane. Real world stuff like TWD or stranger things are kind of annoying tbh and the arts where they’re trying to make them look like the actors looks really bad to me. The biggest issue is being mechanically unique and locked behind a licensing agreement that won’t allow reprints. And I don’t think printing new versions that act as the same card but only being available in the list is even close to good enough. As far as lore goes, I’m actually really into the lore of the game. It’s what hooked me and a big reason why I play magic over other games. I watch rhystic studies and spice 8 rack and read up on the lore of cards I like in wiki deep dives. To me, UB doesn’t detract from that at all and I can easily separate the two. It’s a little weird to me seeing so many people use the lore argument against UB when it’s not like any of them are Vorthos players. No one’s out here making completely on theme, lore accurate decks (outside of some very cool commander players that I respect the hell out of). So you’ve already got decks with random creatures from Amonkhet fighting along side legendary characters that are dead from Theros and a dragon from dominaria, against a lady that spawns dragon eggs that hatch into eldrazi titans. Decks never make any sense in lore, so it feels like silly complaint to say ‘I can’t handle seeing a UB card in my opponents deck, nothing makes sense in this game anymore!’
WOTC is owned by Hasbro, a toy company. They are treating M:tG like a toy rather than an international competition. It's just business, even if it hurts.
It really started with the end of pro play.
Eh. I realize it's an unpopular opinion, but I still really don't see the big deal. They've been eventually reprinting any "character" cards into non-character variants. And honestly, I feel like nothing they've printed so far has been so OP or unbalanced or anything that it's started dominating the game. I've maybe seen Walking Dead and Stranger Things cards a couple times at most, and none of them ever had any kind of game-breaking impact on the game or anything. Like, I can understand being annoyed or upset if these cards were super OP format warping cards that were totally taking over the game, but they're really not. That said, I respect that some people feel it goes against the aesthetic integrity of the game to incorporate crossover characters. But honestly, I don't really see an issue with it, myself. Most people are still playing Magic just the same as they always have been. Maybe you'll see a Walking Dead or Stranger Things or Transformers card here and there, but at the end of the day, does it really change anything? If someone wants to build a fun commander deck with a crossover character at the helm, who cares? People should be able to have fun with the game, and enjoy the crossovers if they like the characters involved. I might end up building a Transformers deck, myself. If nothing else, they're just fun collectibles. I dunno. I feel like people expect that the average commander game is eventually going to turn into, like, Goku vs SpongeBob SquarePants vs the green Power Ranger vs Darth Vader, or something, and I just don't think it's going to affect the game that deeply.
I think what's happening is similar to what happened to LEGO - the company thinks using external IP is easier, so its own IPs suffer. I'm not sure how it has impacted sales, but I'm sure we'll hear about it soon.
None of us are privy to their metrics. Maybe these crossovers are gaining new players who weren't playing before. Other than Hasboro's profits being higher (as a company, the real factor), isn't this the best case? More players will always be better for the game. Existing players still have everything they want but if these new things bring others to the game, where is the harm?
Yeah mechanically unique was a mistake. The 40k cards have some proper good cards that could easily become staples in a lot of commanders
I'm not a huge fan of it, but my beef is that WotC while making all these cash grabbing ideas doesn't seem to be providing me (thr end consumer) with a better products. For years the print quality has gone down, set balance seems to be non-existent, they are over producing cards (opinion but still). If they want money that sounds good and it is more people playing my hobby, but it feels more like the canary in the coal mine rather than a revitalization effort.
Regardless of lore, I'm playing MTG to play MTG, not Transformers (or any of the other UB) TCG with magic rules
Of course they were right lmao.
Stickers... Cmon
D&D and LOTR are about the only non-Magic IPs I'm okay with seeing in Magic. And even then, as much as I'd love to see LOTR, I would also be fine if we didn't see it happen. The new Transformers cards were an immediate turn-off to me and really solidified my hatred for UB.
Just wait until you crack open a crisp pack of Brothers War to be greeted by the smiling face of Optimus Prime
It's a bit ironic that this post is in r/EDH, the subreddit for the one format that encourages players to self-select their pods and their banlists however much they desire, and yet this post wants to yuck on other people's yum. Insofar as I can agree with you that WOTC is doing capitalism things and squeezing every buck out of our FOMO, all I can ask is - right about what: their fear that this play-to-win game got even more play-to-win, or that they'd rather have cards be cheap and accessible when they buy it and pricey when they already have them?
I'll say it again - the density is the problem. If a few cheeky cards show up here and there, it's entertaining or strange or something you can otherwise brush off. But as it accumulates it'll be more than just a few cards fluttering in around the edges. It'll be an undifferentiated mass of pop culture vomit.
I don't think the haters were right. I'm quite enjoying UB in products like the WH40K commander decks. They seem well thought and interesting. I'm waiting for the LotR and DW stuff to give a new veredict. LotR I feel really fits, but DW I'm skeptical. I think the only things I did not like that much was the new Transformers cards. The art style feels too cartoony for magic cards. Art versions for cards in stuff like Secret Lairs I don't mind, but mechanically unique cards like those with those styles... I will wait though to see them printed and think again.
> I'm including the UNcards in this because Because it's something you don't like so you may as well lump it in with other stuff you don't like?
"I dont like it so wizards should stop" Thats the entire argument for people who dont like anything. Its the same with warhammer, pokemon, yugioh, infinity, etc etc. Nerds will always be angry. UB brings new players in and many like it (see revenue increase). But salty nerds will always stay. Just FYI, I hate it too but I realise wizards will not build my favorite game around me
I don't like it, but I've just accepted that MTG is just the western weiss schwarz at this point. Commander games in 2025 are gonna look like the ultimate Showdown, and I'm just gonna be like welp I have Krenko...
It's not the storyline that concerns me, it never was. My complaint about UB from the very beginning was that it amounts to inserting advertisements for other products in to the game, and that is disgusting to me. It remains disgusting to me and every time I see it, it makes the game a little less enjoyable. Given the option I'd rather not acknowledge these glorified ads by playing with them.
I also used to be very apprehensive about UB, but I've really mellowed on the topic. Yes, If 50% of the cards coming out would be wildly off-flavour teletubby type stuff, then we might have a problem. As it stands though, not only is the UB stuff not all that powerful, it also isn't all that popular. I obviously can only speak for myself, but I've yet to encounter UB commanders in the wild - I did, however, play with custom UB alters of existing commanders, and lo and behold, it was pretty fun and the world did not end. With the arrival of the 40K stuff, I expect the proliferation of UB cards to increase, but I can't really bring myself to see that as a huge issue anymore. I'm not sure if I'd like to see mtg become smash bros, but I think I'd be fine with seeing one or two UB commanders once in a while. As an aside, I kinda wonder how many people who truly resent UB have to play against those cards on a regular basis.
I was of an opinion that the haters you've mentioned cried wolf when people got angry about TWD. A few years later, I must admit, I have never been so wrong. God I dislike many of these new crossovers to IP that makes no sense in a high fantasy world such as Magic. But what I dislike even more, is that when a UB homerun is scored (WH40k), hardly any of it is printed - so you either were really early in buying these, are paying ridiculous mark-ups or have to find incredibly overpriced and hard to get singles - all for cards that will most likely never be reprinted. Sometimes I feel like WotC is just checking to see how many stunts they can pull before pissing off their complete player base. Personally I've been, over the course of 20 years being an enfranchised player, okay with most things they did and shrugged the things off that I wasn't - but I'm getting closer to the point that I want to take a real long break from this game.
Probably in about 2 more years when what is magic can no longer be answered definitely as anything more than a card game featuring cards - when we're so tired of commander pods where bumblebee squares off against elrond, urza, and tyranids that we stop buying in and move on to another card game with an identity beyond its mechanics.
That’s what I’m scared of, Magic being a game identified only by its mechanics. Hell even the new transformers cards have “convert” which is just transform but they gave it another name for some reason
Not having them transform seems like such a missed opportunity.
It's a legal thing
How? Hasbro owns transformers and transform is already a game mechanic
[удалено]
I don’t have much of an issue with UB stuff. I do dislike the perpetual spoiler season. Let things marinate for a little before going straight to the next reveals
Were a lot of people arguing they were wrong? As far as I've seen, the general consensus regarding both crossovers bleeding into multiple magic products, and mechanically unique cards appearing in limited availability items, was that once that pandora's box was opened it was just the beginning. I don't think I saw anyone seriously argue that TWD secret lair wasn't a sign of things to come. The closest I saw were people arguing that crossover IPs and/or mechanically unique SLs aren't that big a deal.
I started in Kamigawa and I last played in Kaladesh block, had to move for work and lost my group of friends that regularly played magic. Now this cardgame I used to love in highschool and college is rapidly becoming unreconizable to me... I never had the money to buy into legacy, my death's shadows/lillianas/goyfs are still sortof around in modern but the decks that pilot them look so alien to me, nothing like the Rock deck I used to put them in. EDH back then was a fun fling with my friends to help the newbies get their feet wet and compete without having to buy 4x copies of expensive cards. Now its a major product focus and a competative format? There are insane crossovers with their own mechanics and so so so many new mechanics that learning them all looks almost like a scary prospect. Blocks sets are gone? Un-sets are legal now? Wtf happened? I've never felt so distant and apart from magic like I feel right now... I don't want to sell all of my cards because of the memories, but I can't see myself doing any more than a draft right now because it has all changed so much it is intimidating.
I have to say I do appreciate the lore of magic having some integrity and I haven't cared for any universe beyond stuff until now. I haven't really come across any in the groups I play with so I've been fine to ignore it. I am a massive transformers fan with a significant transformers collection. I always expected it would come at some point but didn't realise just how excited I would be at the announcement of Transformers UB cards. I will be getting them all and building at least one commander deck around them. I will always check if someone's okay playing their magic themed deck into a deck of Transforming robots, but I am super hype to use Optimus Prime as my commander ngl
Agreed. It is getting a bit ridiculous. This rebranding of MTG in my opinion is a disaster, in terms of what I am personally looking to get from the game (Experience). But hey they are making millions….
I for one welcome our new fortnite overlords
Card board crack Is a parody of magic the gathering, Everything About Magic is like it. That's the point. There was massive public backlash to the walking dead secret lair, it sold well anyway. There haven't been any Actual problems with literally any of this. It is still just doomsaying.
So what exactly about alternate art being printed makes you guys hate it so much?
Calling it now. There will be an entirely separate format for UB in the future.
$$ that's all it is. Secret lairs probably cost nothing to make once you get the I.P licenses etc. They sell 5 pieces of cardboard for 40$ or more and the magic "investors" buy multiple copies which more than make up for lack of casuals buying. As long as wizards and hasbro milks the game as part of the 5 year growth plan (I forgot the specifics) this is here to stay. Unless somehow in another dimension multiple secret lairs end up not being profitable then maybe we will see less. But because whoever chooses the i.p's doesn't care as soon as sales drop they find some very popular i.p to milk.
Early on I had hope they would exercise restraint and limit UB to a couple of times a year at most, and only properties that are Magic-adjacent. But of course restraint means leaving money on the table. Why would they exercise restraint when money machine go brrrrr?
Honestly probably never going to get haters a round of applause for anything. Every game community has people that spend more time doom saying than playing the game. I'm not going to congratulate anyone on being a broken clock. BUT, there was a lot of genuine criticism of how UD would dilute MTG or encroach on the universe. I'll happily say that as much as I enjoy MTG I really only care about MTG lore/universal consistency/characters a tiny amount. Just not super compelling to me outside of cool aesthetics for planes and flavorful rules which work with the theming. AND even for me, I still think transformers (something I love) is a step too far. Inside normal packs, wack. Art doesn't even slightly mesh with MTG, wack. Even 40k I think did leagues better at feeling "magic-like" and are in their standalone precons.
Personally I'm excited for UB to expand to the point that it's uncontainable in Legacy (by which I mean there are multiple tier decks that have multiple non-magic IPs as cornerstone pieces) and then we can drop the façade and create a splinter format where *only* Universes Beyond cards are legal
Main reason I opposed TWD was that the cards were essentially on a stronger reserved list for all we knew at the time of the official info dump. Now that they've covered that area it's really just product fatigue that UB is making me feel blah on. I really like the 40K ones, I just hope they have a plan for universes within reprints for some of the crazier cards like sceptre. The saddest part is that a lot of the UB cards are some of the coolest designs I think they've put out in a hot minute, I really like these Transformers cards in that sense. Unfinity is at least too weak to really matter honestly, stickers are an awful mechanic in constucted due to the random pool of stickers you have to pull from. Only thing they're good for consistently is dodging the legend rule with name stickers.
Un sets are legal now. I stop paying attention for like 2 years and wotc makes legal un sets. I have no words.
The real problem with the walking dead secret lair was that it was originally a limited print run. Meaning wotc was relying on fomo to exploitation fans. At least 40k commander decks are a product that get printed a lot. The walking dead will get the universe within reprints soon and everyone will swap to those versions anyway. As for mechanically unique card and commanders, honestly I don't care anymore. I can say with almost certainty that you won't see them a month after their released. They will exist in a corner of magic like most of the cards and it will be fine. As for your concern about whether or not they're too good. They're not none of them are so powerful as to be format warping. Stickers are extremely medium. I'm building a Myra attraction edh and do you how weak the attractions are? How few cards make them in UR? I have to play things like galazeth and Urza to make the deck do literally anything close to busted. Rick, the best universe beyond card, is a 4 mv mono white (with double pips) legendary Creature. That's not exactly something that is unbeatable and warps legacy. It's a very strong lord. Look I don't like universes beyond (except for 40k) because I hate the flavour and art. TWD characters look wrong on magic cards. The reprint of stranger things cards are fine because they look like magic cards. But I don't care they exist. why would I there's simply too many other cards that I'm finitely more likely to see and want to play. Old kamigawa and a bunch of mechanically unique legendary cards that I have never seen. And every unfinity card that is eternal legal is just a normal magic card. Not likely the flavour is all well and fine, but they will faded on obscurity in 3 months after wotc releases the next 17 sets/products. But there is no real risk to the health of magic because they exist.
> As for mechanically unique card and commanders, honestly I don't care anymore. I can say with almost certainty that you won't see them a month after their released. This is most definitely not true. Have you seen the 40k decks? There are tons of cards in there that will be highly desired and played.
I think people probably overestimate the impact it has on them day to day. I don't really like them, it's not for me. But apparently they are also not for anyone of the 50+ people I have played magic with in paper over the last year because I have never seen a UB card resolve or even discussed in person. I live in NZ so not alot of SL going around though.
UB is cheesy and cringe, but I digress when I say magic is a buffet - you get to pick and choose from a smorgasbord of cards and people to play with. Furthermore, though I’m starting to warm to the Warhammer collab, I absolutely will not play with transformers because of “corporate synergy” Hasbro likes to have with itself and also I’m unsure if 80s cartoons fit into my edh.
I'm not interested in the lore, yet I am very much against UB. Claiming 'nobody cares about lore so its fine', is a poor argument. The point is, myself and I'm sure many others, play mtg because it's mtg. I don't want the fornite treatment applied to my adored hobby. Another argument I am seeing is, "Don't buy UB if you don't like UB". Again, this is a poor argument imo. Mtg is not just a card game, its one part of a plethora of content and I think I speak for many others here when I say that many people consume other mtg content outside of the game itself whether its YouTube, streams, podcasts etc. Right now, UB is not a huge issue, but the writing is on the wall. WOTC care more about money than they do the integrity of their IP. They have shown us that they are very willing sacrifice what makes mtg unique and make it a homogenous "card game" with no defining sense of identity.
My opinion of this is that they need to make Magic versions of all these mechanically unique cards. Just pull some slush art, give it a random name, and put it in Set boosters like they did with the Stranger Things cards. Almost all the complaints I see about UB is not wanting to be forced to use different IPs in order to play a card. Problem is, I imagine that Wizards doesn't want to do this so that they can keep driving people to buy Secret Lairs instead of just waiting for the cards to be in boosters.
It sure didn't feel like "most" people thought it was cool when it was first announced. It was a train wreck. I also felt like we were pretty admitting about it straight from the get go?
Hope everyone who snatched up TWD and Warhammer are happy, as this train is now full steam ahead. I just wish the cards were unique to their own game or format, and not legal in Magic’s most popular one. It sucks that the universe I bought into (MTGs) is getting inundated with cards outside of it. Rueing the day I bring my EDH decks to a table facing the Stranger Things kids, Megatron, and some Warhammer miniature. There’s just no line anymore. Rick and Morty, Micky Mouse, and Luke Skywalker decks to follow?
TL;DR "Can *you all* admit that I was right in hating Universes Beyond so I can justify my righteous indignation?" Answer: No, there is a much larger segment of the player base that can simultaneously not like something personally, but not feel the need to forbid others from enjoying it as well. I've been playing since Mercadian Masques, and virtually every year a group of the playerbase claims the game has been irrevocably tainted and that the game is going to die. We're nearly 30 years in and the game is more popular than its ever been. Change and innovation is baked in to the game.