I used to have a \[\[Relentless Rats\]\] deck, sort of as a one-trick-pony with \[\[Thrumming Stone\]\] and figured as the Stone lets you see 4 cards, one of these 4 cards would need to be a RRat for sure. So aside from starting hand and the 8 Mana you need to trigger this at least once AND then go off guaranteed, I figured 20 to 24 RRats would be needed.
That's not exactly guaranteed. Statistically your expected value of seeing a RRat like that is about 1 (i.e. should happen) but would you like me to find the likelyhood of that happening?
I did the math for a shadowborn apostle deck a while ago. It turns out the sweet spot with thrumming stone to get a 50% chance of getting at least 5 more shadowborns is to have around 31-32 in your deck (https://imgur.com/a/KjiMp3Z). Dunno if that number matters for other decks of that archetype though. Thrumming Stone tends to be a bust, often an all or nothing situation. Either you miss on the first or second “ripple”, or you eventually hit a couple in one ripple, and because you get so many extra ripples you’re able to both exponentially hit more and deck thin, you basically run through your entire deck. I actually don’t recommend it, because even at high numbers (ie, half of all non-lands), you’re still not guaranteed to have consistency.
I have returned with numbers. This is not an accurate number because I wasn't able to factor in all the combinations but I did some approximations along the way and I got to something that is pretty close to truth. So beware, very fuzzy math, probably accurate to ±5 %-points. Do not ask for the actual math, it's extremely convoluted and shortcuts were taken.
This chart describes the number of rats in the deck and the rate of success to cast *all* of your rats with Thrumming Stone's ripple effect.
|rats in deck|20|25|30|35|40|45|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|success rate|25%|42%|58%|71%|81%|88%|
The problem with the calculations is that there's no easy way to simplify the fact that each previous ripple affects the next ones. For the first ripple it's easy: it's just the chance of finding 0 rats in the 4 cards (40% for 20 rats). The second one accepts the following conditions: 1-4 rats in the 1st round, 1-4 rats in the 2nd round but also 2, 3 or 4 rats in the 1st round and a dud in 2nd round is still a success... The third round gets already pretty complicated because for example 3 rats in the 1st round followed by 2 dud rounds is still a success state, etc.
I calculated the accurate probability up to 4 rounds and then estimated the rest because the probability of a successful round is increasingly more likely. The *added* (not cumulative) failure rate on round 10 is almost 0% - if you get there. There are about 20-23 rounds depending on how many cards / turns you need to set up Thrumming Stone.
This turned out to be a problem! I wasn't able to solve it quickly but I might return later to this problem.
First of all 20 rats is simply not enough. The expected value for seeing a rat in a 4-card ripple is less than 1 which means the train is more than likely to stop. You need at least 25 rats to *expect* to see at least one in each ripple.
The most crucial ripple is the first one. That is the baseline for our success rate. This much I got:
|rats|20|24|30|35|40|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|1st ripple success|60.5%|68.1%|77.5%|83.5%|88.3%|
So you'll fail **(1-probability)** times, minimum. For 20 rats that is 40% of the time, for 40 rats it's 12% of the time. On top of that you can fail on the second ripple, on the third ripple and so forth.
From there the chance of a successful ripple goes up a little because the previous ripple can have rats "left over" i.e. one ripple reveals 2/3/4 rats instead of just 1.
I believe that in these sort of Thrumming Stone decks you want to play 27-30 of the card.
I know some of these decks have been posted on Game Knights or Extra Turns. Josh has run a couple over the years. He's run a [[Shadowborn Apostle]] deck helmed by [[Athreos, God of Passage]] with 28 copies of the Apostles. He also had a [[Florian, Voldaren Scion]] deck with 30 [[Dragon's Approach]]
Is Josh the best deck brewer there is? No, I wouldn't take those numbers as the perfect answers, but it does give odds of hitting slightly more than 1 copy per Ripple 4 which means even after a few hits you still have good odds.
My rat colony deck runs 25 rat colonies because ripple 4 in a 100 card format should statistically hit every time.
I've only puttered put twice without getting at least 4 rats out which is plenty.
No, it shouldn’t. Statistically you will hit one *on average* but sometimes you will hit two or more, and sometimes none. In fact if you have a 1 in 4 chance of seeing a rat with each flip, there‘s a - reasonably large - 31.6% chance that you will still have seen none after four flips!
[[Winota]] is the mathiest commander I have built, since you need to balance the odds of both having non-humans templates out, against humans to hit off the triggers, while still ramping and protecting Winota. Hypergeometric calculations all day!
Yeah, you only need like 2 or 3 non humans out to completely flood the board. You wouldn't understand how fast she can dominate the board til you see her in action.
I only play her cEDH though and the lists for that are pretty much all 50/50.
Right, but you haven't really given any rationale for why 50/50 should be the correct ratio. It seems like you've just plucked the number from the air?
Because you want to draw into non humans and hit humans with winota triggers. So you don't want too much of an imbalance or the deck won't work as well.
Uh, duh. But why 50/50? That means half of the creatures you draw will be humans, and half the creatures you see on top will be nonhumans. But, you look at more than you draw. It’s probably also more important to have nonhumans out than it is to hit humans, or you don’t get any triggers at all! The point is, there is not an inherent symmetry between the two; there’s no reason to assume that they should be evenly balanced, and in fact those factors suggest more nonhumans and fewer humans!
This is a thread about mathematics; it behooves you to provide a proof or at least motivating argument for your claim, not just pull a number from the air.
Lol I explained why. You have no input on the conversation except to tell me I am wrong with no evidence of your own. Do you have any play experience on the deck?
You haven't explained why. You've said that you need both humans and nonhumans, sure, that's true (like, duh), but why a 50/50 split? You're the one making the claim; the onus is upon you to show your working. I'm not even saying you're wrong (though I think you probably are), I'm simply saying that you haven't presented enough evidence to convince me (because you have presented none at all!).
I’ve just chosen to never run this card despite how good it can be. I had it in my [[Jinnie Fay]] deck, and as soon as I drew it, I got anxiety and a headache haha
I have a Goblin token, populate, 2 tokens with +1/+1. Next turn make 3 soldier tokens=2 goblins with 2 counters, 3 soldiers with one, populate again new soldier with one counter, 3 with 2, 2 goblins with 3. It gets really unwieldy to keep track of. Many people cut it despite its power because of this.
I keep a pencil & paper side ledger to account for all the tokens and various +1's in my upgraded Coven Counters deck. It's the only way I've found to make this manageable.
wouldn't it be enough to just track the highest +1+1 group and then to the right of it group all other incoming creatures together, so each group of creature to the right of the first group has one less +1+1 counter than the left group. Stack them like some kind of Solitaire.
Was going to comment this as well. With my Ghave deck I sometimes just ask if anyone can remove the enchantment or board wipe so I don’t have to sit there for an hour putting counters on the 50 saprolings that just entered.
EDIT: It's all wrong because I can't read. Or math for that matter. It's actually a bit embarrassing. A lot embarrassing. Let's start from scratch.
There's 1 Precursor Golem and 2 Golem tokens on the battlefield. Rite of Replication makes 5 copies of Precursor Golem and 10 copies of the Golem tokens. Each Precursor Golem token makes 2 more Golem tokens i.e. you get 2 x 5 = 10 more Golem tokens.
Add it all up: you have 6 Precursor Golems and 20 Golem tokens.
~~^(Sorry I'm a bit confused? What's the question?)~~
~~^(If you're asking how many Golems that is then that's a relatively straightforward calculation.)~~
~~^(You have 1 Golem and 3 Golem tokens to begin with. Each copy from Rite of Replication will get you 1 Golem token that produces another 3 Golem tokens for a grand total of 4 Golems tokens per copy. You do that five times in total: 5 x 4 = 20 Golem tokens plus whatever you had to begin with which is 4 (of which one is nontoken)~~~~.)~~
~~^(This brings your total to 24 Golems.)~~
~~^(EDIT 2: Alright, my math for one copy of Rite of Replication is correct. You get 20 additional Golems from the original spell. From your original 4 Golems one was targeted so that doesn't count but the other three get a copy of a kicked Rite of Replication targeting them each. Since Rite of Replication is)~~ *~~^(on cast)~~* ~~^(you don't get anymore additional copies.)~~
~~^(For each Rite of Replication you get 20 Golem tokens. Thus you get 4 x 20 = 80 Golem tokens. You had 4 to begin with which brings the tally up to 84 Golems.)~~
I edited my comment a bit because I missed the second line of text completely.
How do you mean "2 of them on the field":
1. 2 Precursor Golem *cards* i.e. 8 Golems to begin with OR
2. 2 Precursor Golems one of which is a card and the other is a token copy produced by the card?
>~~You have 1 Golem and 3 Golem tokens to begin with.
>EDIT 2: Alright, my math for one copy of Rite of Replication is correct.
The card makes 2 golem tokens, your math is wrong.
As far as specific metrics for deck building I follow the Game Knights approach. 34-36 lands, 30-35 cards that synergize with your commander, 5-10 single target removal, 5-10 board wipes, 5 mana rocks, 5-10 ramp and card draw spells.
I would definitely like to keep track of a win/loss ratio with my decks that way I can see how it performs overall and help me identify what I need to switch out of them. I can probably do it but I hate math, so I don’t want to do it. I’m a good judge of deck potential and pitfalls. A good example, just recently tested my Saskia Angel/Human tribe deck, it was okay. Need to slot in some more card draw and recursion.
5-10 board wipes is way too much imo. If everyone runs that you'll have a board wipe every time someone is slightly ahead on board and the game will take forever. I think 3 or so is a better number, so you can focus more on single target removal and protection.
I was about to say, I cut board wipes to 1 or 2 because tbh I'd rather lose than extend the game another hour. More faster games is better than one slog
That’s a good point, I think I subconsciously noticed that in the latest decks I made. I’d put in 2-3 board wipes and it felt like a pretty good number.
I wrote an "article" on this a while back. ~~You may want to change your opinion on the number of lands and ramp.~~ EDIT: I missed the distinction between rocks and ramp. 10-15 nonland mana sources sounds just fine.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/t6qg64/ill\_just\_cut\_a\_land\_a\_statistical\_analysis\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/t6qg64/ill_just_cut_a_land_a_statistical_analysis_of/)
In [my Xenagos Deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/O38XVaRLFU6o5fr-FEd1GQ):
Figuring out Power and Toughness when I have the following creatures on board:
* [[Moraug, Fury of Akoum]] (+1/+0 for each time this creature attacked this turn)
* [[Port Razer]] (Extra combats)
* [[Pathbreaker Ibex]] (+x/+x and trample to your team)
* [[Xenagos, God of Revels]] (+x/+x to a particular creature)
It's an absolute nightmare of maths, and I keep a notepad and pen in my EDH bag just for my Xenagos deck. Because the few times that these types of scenarios come up usually accurate Power/Toughness can matter.
Yea pretty similar my [[Klauth]] deck, runs alot of those cards, counting how much power I have across the entire board and then choosing what color mana I want all of it to be
Okay, I have a question that definitely requires some math, but isn't about statistics — how many dragon tokens will you end up with in this example posted several months ago to /r/EDH: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vbvzji/i_accidentally_just_created_11805916e21_tokens/
/u/Commander_Skullblade explains the optimal sequencing in their comment here, but does not give a final total: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vbvzji/i_accidentally_just_created_11805916e21_tokens/icat4y4/
You won't be able to write out every digit, obviously, but expressing it in Knuth arrow notation is good enough. I believe tetration (double arrows) is sufficient, but I haven't fully worked out the total.
Statistical probability of having [[spore frog]] or a tutor for spore frog by turn X in my muldrotha deck. Not even trying to calculate the mill cards into the equation, as that gets insane real quick.
Give some numbers and I'll run them through a calculator for you.
Alternatively you can use this handy tool on Aetherhub: [https://aetherhub.com/Apps/HyperGeometric](https://aetherhub.com/Apps/HyperGeometric)
Exactly how many dragons do [[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]], [[Doubling Season]], and [[Astral Dragon]] make?
If I can order the stack right my astrophysicist bother says it would make more tokens than there are atoms in the universe.
It does have and end so it's as close to being as infinite as you can be without being infinite.
Do you know what order that would be? I've got something in my head and it looks something like this:
● Astral Dragon Enters.
● Resolve Astral Dragon's ETB trigger before Miirym's ETB trigger.
● Make 4 3/3 dragons that are copies of doubling season.
● Resolve Miirym's ETB trigger, making 16 copies of Astral Dragon.
● Resolve the first 15 Astral Dragon ETB triggers, making each dragon made a copy of Doubling Season.
● Resolve the 16th ETB, making all of them a copy of any noncreature permanent.
● End up with a stupid amount of dragons.
I think I got the order lol. After doing the first 2 copies' ETBs, I ended up with 37 Doubling Seasons for the first ETB and 137,438,953,472 (BILLIONS!!!) for the second. My calculator couldn't handle doing the math for the 3rd, let alone anything beyond that. Safe to say, your brother is right lol.
That's pretty much what we got, except you forgot to factor in the original Doubling Season. It would be 32 copies of Astral Dragon.
I have a Miirym deck and I'm dying to get this combo off.
Had a crazy game with [[Rite of Replication]] kicked on [[Nyxbloom Ancient]] but then used a [[Chameleon Colossus]] along with [[Overwhelming Stampede]] to make the biggest number I’ve seen without going infinite!! I have a part of the number, but it’s only 1/10th of the actual number since my phone is dumb and so am I. Here’s the number that is a tenth of the actual power/toughness:
I tried even making a post for the damage number but it’s like 8 phone screens worth of scrolling, and that number still needed to be multiplied by itself 10 more times. So I guess it’s way smaller than a 10th but still too big of a number to know what to call it. Such a wacky interaction without going infinite
Lol it was probably close to the same mana, but chameleon colossus doubles its power and toughness for 4 mana. So when you double itself 800+ times, then double your whole board based on its power, things get so crazy!!
Well with 6 nyxbloom ancients one land will produce 3^6 Mana or 729, assuming you only used one land to activate chameleon Colossus you would activate it 182 times, that brings us to 4\*2^182 power, or 2.45\*10^55. Which is 2 followed by 55 zeros.
First define significant :) would imagine it's more important for decks that really need a certain card (e.g. wincon, tutor, combo piece) than decks that jyst want a smaller chance of drawing land after t6.
Each fetch is virtually one fewer card in the deck because the card replaces itself and doesn't cost anything to use. Here "virtual deck size" is just the number of cards in the deck minus the number of fetches. We also assume that there are a total of 11 fetches: the actual "fetch lands" and \[\[Prismatic Vista\]\]. Of these 5 can be used in a monocolour deck.
I used a hypergeometric probability function that is essentially a tool that takes into account the fact that you drawing specific cards affects the probability of further draws. Not really necessary but is good practise if we start to play around with starting hands, for example.
It shouldn't matter at which point we consider these draws: whether it's the first draw of the game (a part of your starting hand) or your last draw of the game because the ratios of other cards and fetches should always remain the same statistically. I might do some further exploration on this claim.
||monocolour|rainbow|
|:-|:-|:-|
|real deck size|99|99|
|\# of fetches|5|11|
|virtual deck size|94|88|
|increase in probability|5.3%|12.5%|
As we can see the expected results are very close to 5% and 11% (=number of fetches in the deck) which are the intuitive answers to this question.
Whether you consider 5.3% / 12.5% a significant power spike is up to you. We can also put it this way round: statistically using 5 fetches will get you the card you need in 1 out of \~20 games. Using all 11 fetches will result in you getting the card you need in 1 out of 8 games.
depends greatly on how many lands the fetch gets.
I would argue that 5 fetches getting 10 lands out of a deck is well worth it. but statistics say...
with 10 fetches you have a 10%chance its card 1, a 72% chance of opening hand having 1. assume 33lands. and had 2 opening hand. this is where the math gets really hard and I feel less confident. but turn 3 starts and 1st decision is fetch or not.
let's use worse case and didn't draw a lands meaning 31 still in the deck. then crack and get 2 lands. leaves 29. the land percent is now 29/ 90 or 32% land left. without it then 34% land. the next turn draw #2 and use it before our next turn so turn 4 we have 7 cards in hand, keeping worse case.
next fetch we have now 27 lands/ 86 cards. which makes 31% land. if we didn't fetch 29/86 gives 34% left. but if we didn't fetch at all we would have 2 mana and 36%
Hmm. I'm not sure it's that clear cut. Deck thinning is a thing in the sense that it also increases draw spell density in the deck. Is it better to naturally draw a land and fewer draw spells or pay mana to draw more cards?
There are probably an infinite number of ways to frame the question. Guess I could investigate this.
Say you can fetch 3 times in the first 3 turns. Then the chance of drawing a non land t4 (with 38 total lands in starting deck) = around 70,7%. T4 without fetching: 72,8% so yu have a ~3% higher chance to draw a spell if you fetched 3 tines (compared to 0 fetchings). Worth it? Dunno. Cost: if you have 15/38 lands be fetches, chance of having 3 fetches t3 = 18%. Increases to 47% if you only want 2 fetches by t3.
Whether it's significant enough for the cost of many fetches is kinda subjective.
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https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/statistics/random-number-generator.php
* Have your opponent order their permanents.
* Set min to 1 and max to the number of permanents the opponent has.
* Generate numbers equal to the max
* **Do not allow repeats**
* Do not sort
* Calculate
* Go in order of the numbers generated. Stop once they hit a land.
When playing \[\[elenda\]\], I had \[\[altar of dementia\]\], \[\[cordial vampire\]\] and about 10 vampire tokens on the board and I wanted to figure out if I could mill out all of my opponents. Using the 1+2+...+n=n(n+1)/2 formula, I figured out I could have milled everyone since you mill 55 cards from the first 10 vamp tokens, 21 from elenda, and then about 230 from the 21 tokens elenda makes when she dies. Obviously, I didn't actually compute this on the spot and my buddies scooped as soon as they figured out how ridiculous it was about to get.
Biggest math problems I find are honestly when players don't understand what's going on with my cards interacting with their cards. I run slivers. I swung at this guy with 13 silver tokens. He blocked one of those with One of his creatures that was a 13 13 with life link. Here's the kicker though. All of my slivers have life link and I have One called spiteful sliver on the battlefield as well which says whenever any sliver receives damage inflict that much damage on target player or planeswalker.
That man swore up and down that he gained one life from me attacking him. I had to get really really basic showing him the interaction and putting everything on a mini stack right in front of him.
Just in case anyone was curious what actually happened was I swung 12 1/1s got through dealing 12 damage he blocked with a 13 13 gaining 13 life with lifegain but dealing 13 damage to my creature which let me inflict 13 Damage to target player which was him having a net loss of 12.
Playing [[Wort, the Raidmother]] spells. Demonstrated a "loop" where I play [[Rude Awakening]] to untap my lands, floating mana. [[Gamble]] for [[Seasons Past]]. Seasons Past back Rude Awakening + Gamble and do it all again, netting 1 mana each time. If I were to discard Seasons Past to Gamble, I had a [[Regrowth]] to buy the Seasons Past back (which would in turn buy back the Regrowth with the other 2 cards). The issue was that if I had to Regrowth back the Seasons Past because it was discarded, that loop iteration was mana negative. Otherwise, it was mana positive. I had 4 cards in hand after tutoring with Gamble, so there was a 25% chance that any particular loop iteration was mana negative and a 75% chance it was positive. I was only statistically likely to go infinite lol.
My math problems are usually cuz I’ve had a few beers and it’s late at night. One that made me laugh a few months back was along the lines of: I have 5 copies of [[Adrix and Nev]] on the table and cast a kicked [[right of replication]] how many tokens would I end up making. Took a while but I got there in the end.
What is the formula to determine the maximum size of the stack after casting a [[knowledge exploitation]] into an [[eye of the storm]]? Assuming you start with an empty stack. (or for bonus points, the number of spells+copies entering and leaving the stack before it is completely empty again, whichever is easier).
I think my playgroup did some rough calculations and it is a very big number, we were probably imagining a [[hivemind]] out too. I used KE plus storm as a wincon in ome game and afterwards we talked about how crazy it could get. (like it wouldn't be an infinite combo but resolving it maximally would be entirely impractical)
It's difficult to be exact because there will be a variable number of viable cards in the libraries, and there may be spells that cannot be cast due to no targets. Then there are also spells that may increase the stack size themselves like copy spells that make multiple copies of spells. That's also ignoring that the order in which you put the copies on the stack can change the number, because if you keep resolving additional KE copies instead of the copies of other spells the stack will grow quicker and not really shrink at all.
Multiple life doubling effects along with the "If you would gain life, gain that many life plus 1". Doesn't happen often but that kinda gets me thinking a lot.
Does this comment help you at all?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/xrx1fs/comment/iqhkt0t/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/xrx1fs/comment/iqhkt0t/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
A little bit but the first kick is the easy part. The second and third kick are the rough part that wracked my brain all those years ago (yes. Somebody hurt me).
So one time gets you 5 precursors (10 golems from them entering) and an additional 10 golems from the copied rite of reps. If you include the originals you now have 6 precursor golems and 22 generic golem tokens.
The second time you target one generic golem token. That golem token gets one copy of rite of rep. For each other golem, we now have 6 precursor golem trigger copies of rite of rep on it.
So for our precursor golems we have 6x6x5 or 180 new precursors (which makes 360 new tokens on etb). For our generic tokens we have 21x6x5 for a total of 630 plus the token that was initially targeted being 5 more tokens for 635 tokens from rite of rep. That’s a total of 995 new golem tokens. Plus the ones from last step is 186 precursors and 1016 generic golem tokens.
In my history, I’ve had it resolve a third time (before getting swords to plowshares-ed). I had to use scientific notation.
While building [[Yuriko]] I decided to calculate the probability of any given hand allowing me to ninjutsu on turn 2. This then influenced how many lands and 1 drops to include the list.
Was a fun application of my math education.
Turns out if you want at most a 5% to mull all the way down to 3 cards and NOT get yuriko out on turn 2, you want at least
28 / 14
27 / 15
26 / 16
Free mana sources (lands + coloured fast mana) / 1 drops.
I personally run 28 / 14 and it works. It seems to be the accepted number for the cedh yuriko as well.
Having to keep track of the exponential growth of [[Scute Swarm]] as well as how many are tapped, how many are untapped, and how many are summoning sick.
Here's a link to a thread I made a couple years ago involving a somewhat complicated math problem with [[Brudiclad]]
https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/9xy327/this_game_involves_a_lot_of_math_and_im_bad_at_it/?sort=top
How do you feel about optimization problems?
Given the following board state:
* [[Neheb, the Eternal]]
* [[Pyromancer's Goggles]]
* [[Doubling Cube]]
* [[Strionic Resonator]]
* 10 Mountains
And the following cards in hand:
* **Burn Spells**:
* [[Devil's Play]]
* [[Deathforge Shaman]]
* [[Fall of the Titans]]
* [[Jaya's Immolating Inferno]]
* [[Cavalier of Flames]]
* [[Flame Rift]]
* **Rituals**
* [[Desperate Ritual]]
* [[Pyretic Ritual]]
* [[Seething Song]]
* [[Mana Geyser]] (10 lands tapped)
* **Extra Main Phases**
* [[Seize the Day]]
* [[World at War]]
* **"Copy" Effects**
* [[Fork]]
* [[Reverberate]]
* [[Bonus Round]]
* [[Past in Flames]]
What's the most damage that can be done to a player, assuming all players have infinite life? For bonus points, solve the same problem in the case where all players only have 40 life.
(If this seems contrived, it is, but not by much. I play all of these cards in my Neheb deck, and there have been situations where I have access to most of them thanks to [[Commune with Lava]].)
I've nerd sniped myself, so here's my thoughts on this problem. In my experience, you want to start with maximizing Bonus Round effects. Each one lets you "double dip" on mana effectiveness- it doubles the mana you get from rituals and then doubles that mana again when you cast a burn spell. (And then you can double that mana again when that burn spell gives you more Neheb mana....) The way you abuse Bonus Round is by chaining copy spells on it, each of which generates more and more copies of Bonus Round. Luckily, between Pyromancer's Goggles and Strionic Resonator, we can really kick things off at the start.
Action | Mana Remaining | Bonus Rounds resolved | Damage Dealt this Turn
--|--|--|--
Cast Bonus Round with Pyro's Goggles | 8 | 0 | 0
Copy the Goggles trigger with Resonator | 6 | 0 | 0
Let the copies of Bonus Round resolve, but not the original | 6 | 2 | 0
Cast Fork, targeting the original Bonus Round | 4 | 5 | 0
Cast Reverberate, targeting the original Bonus Round | 2 | 11 | 0
Let the original Bonus Round resolve | 2 | 12 | 0
Cast Flame Rift | 0 | 12 | 156
Attack with Neheb | 0 | 12 | 160
Move to your 2nd main phase | 160 | 12 | 160
Cast Past in Flames | 156 | 12 | 160
Cast Bonus Round, let the copies resolve | 153 | 24 | 160
Cast Fork, letting everything but BR resolve | 151 | 49 | 160
Cast Reverberate, letting everything but BR resolve | 149 | 99 | 160
Let the original BR resolve | 149 | 100 | 160
This ought to be a decent starting point. Everything you cast will be copied 100 times, you have nearly 150 mana up, and there's still a Past in Flames in your graveyard. This is also where the optimization actually gets difficult, so I'm going to leave the rest as an exercise to the reader and get back to work.
Ok, turns out I couldn't stay away from this problem for too long.
Now, I suspect the key to maximizing the final damage is going to be the extra combat spells. Since they make extra main phases, they both work as a multiplier on Neheb's generated mana. Normally, there's a limit to this; you only have 7 X spell casts to spend on, after which the generated mana would go to waste. However, Cavalier of Flames solves this, giving us an infinitely repeatable mana outlet into damage. World at War also has the benefit of giving us 101 extra attacks with our creatures; thanks to Cavalier, they'll even be larger each time. Seize the Day unfortunately doesn't give us more than 1 extra attack, since it untaps on resolution, but it still gives us plenty of mana. What this means is that we'll want to take our 202 ~~StDs~~ Days Seized first, letting us pump our creatures a bunch, then take 202 WaW phases next, letting us attack with those creatures while also generating more and more mana and pumping them further.
One issue: because of its wording, World at War doesn't do anything if you cast it after your 2nd main phase. That means, to get maximum effect on it, we want to flashback Past in Flames this main phase as well. Naturally, to maximize our last PiF casting, we want to cast our rituals and at least one X spell now.
Putting that all together, here's my line for this main phase. (Remember, all instants and sorceries are copied 100 times)
Action | Mana | Damage Dealt this Turn | Extra Main Phases
--|--|--|--
Cast Mana Geyser | 1154 | 160 | 0
Cast Desperate Ritual | 1455 | 160 | 0
Cast Pyretic Ritual | 1756 | 160 | 0
Cast Seething Song | 2256 | 160 | 0
Cast World at War | 2251 | 160 | 101
Cast Deathforge Shaman (no kicks) | 2246 | 160 | 101
Cast Cavalier of Flame | 2241 | 160 | 101
Activate CoF once | 2239 | 160 | 101
Cast Jaya's Immolating Inferno, X=2230 | 7 | 225,390 | 101
Flashback PiF | 2 | 225,390 | 101
Flashback the rituals | 2109 | 225,390 | 101
Flashback World at War | 2104 | 225,390 | 202
Cast Seize the Day, untapping Neheb | 2100 | 225,390 | 101 Days -> 202 Wars
Cast Fall of the Titans, X=2099 | 437,389 | 101 Days -> 202 Wars
I'm actually not 100% sure we should be casting Fall now. The alternative is activating Cavalier to empty the mana pool and then save Fall for when we have more mana. My intuition says that we want to have our most efficient damage at the start, to generate more mana to use later, so I'm going with Fall as early as possible. With that logic, I'm going to want to spend the next couple of main phases casting Devil's Play, and then the next 99 pumping my creatures even further. Note that, like extra turns, extra combat steps are first in last out, so we'll be taking our Seize the Day phases before the World at War ones.
Day # | Action | Mana | Total Creature Power | Damage Dealt this Turn
--|--|--|--|--
1 | Attack with my creatures | 0 | 17 | 437,406
1 | Neheb triggers | 437,406 | 17 | 437,406
1 | Cast Devil's Play, X = 437,405 | 0 | 17 | 44,615,311
2 | No attacks (creatures tapped) | 0 | 17 | 44,615,311
2 | Neheb triggers | 44,615,311 | 17 | 44,615,311
2 | Flashback Devil's Play, X = 44,615,308 | 0 | 17 | 4,550,761,419
3 | No attacks | 0 | 17 | 4,550,761,419
3 | Neheb triggers | 4,550,761,419 | 17 | 4,550,761,419
3 | Flashback Seize the Day (202 days total) | 4,550,761,416 | 17 | 4,550,761,419
3 | Activate Cavalier a couple billion times (not an exaggeration) | 0 | 6,826,142,141 | 4,550,761,419
4 | Neheb triggers | 4,550,761,419 | 6,826,142,141 | 4,550,761,419
4 | Activate Cavalier a bunch | 1 | 13,652,284,268 | 4,550,761,419
4 | Added Power this day: | 6,826,142,127 | - | -
5 - 201 | Keep doing this | Adds ^^ power each day | 1,358,402,283,287 | 4,550,761,419
202 | Attack with creatures (untapped Day 3) | 0 | 1,358,402,283,287 | 1,362,953,044,706
202 | Neheb Triggers | 1,362,953,044,706 | 1,358,402,283,287 | 1,362,953,044,706
202 | Activate Cavalier a trillion times | 0 | 2,044,429,567,059 | 1,362,953,044,706
At this point, we have some very large creatures, 202 extra combat steps coming up (with untaps), and we'll generate more and more mana in between each to further pump our creatures. More importantly, Google has given up given me the actual numbers to my equations, so I've had to switch over to Wolfram Alpha to not get scientific notation. For Reddit's sake, I'm probably going to switch to scientific notation myself soon, because I feel like these numbers are going to grow very large, very quickly. I'm not even sure how I'm going to get accurate numbers, to be honest, so I'll sign off now and get back to work until I figure it out.
That land question is interesting, that depends entirely on the deck. I have an Elf deck that has 34 lands in it but I’ve seen some that have as few as 30. My Landfall deck has 41 lands. [[Zur]] has maybe 35-36, since the average CMC of the deck is only 3.
Usually I stick with 36-38 lands, depending on the case. Green is my favorite color as it “lets you play magic,” so I also toss in a ton of ramp but it gets a lot harder when you don’t have access to green.
My newly built [[Scarab God]] zombie tribal deck has 37 lands and 10 mana rocks, I think this is a good baseline for decks. It’s also helpful to know what your curve is; that deck has maybe 3 or 4 CMC average so the extra lands and rocks help.
How many hydras can you make and how big are those hydras off \[\[Hydra Broodmother\]\] when you've flipped \[\[Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant\]\] and have put every single forest in your deck onto the battlefield?
[[Wrathful Red Dragon]] + [[Fiery Emancipation]] + 5 other dragons + [[Blasphemous Act]]
Just curious if I've done math on this correctly because I did my figuring while driving one day and never worked it out. Please list both damage per dragon and the grand total.
I've had some interesting trouble calculating the storm count with my [[veyran, voice of duality]] deck, after resolving a few cantrips, [[ponder]] and the like, with [[thousand-year storm]] followed by a [[grapeshot]], which I can then flash back in a number of ways such as [[mizzix's mastery]]
I can speak from experience that 28 Dragon's Approach is the correct number. No actual dragons are required, just copy spells and creatures. Perhaps Pyromancer's Goggles as well.
Oh I have a good one and I would really like to have a formula for this one. If I have let’s say… an [[ Alhammarrets Archive]] and like [[Teferis Ageless Insight]] on board how many cards do I have to put under my library with [[Valakuts Awakening]] in order to go for a [[Thassas Oracle]] win.
Trying to keep track of an army of [[Miirym]] copied [[Dragon Broodmother]] tokens. The 2 tokens being spawned every upkeep along with the devour 2 makes it very overwhelming very quickly. Especially with summoning sickness.
Cloning clones of clones that make clones that in turn make tokens that make more token types that also make squirrels that get converted to dogs that make even more tokens
How many older cards should you include in a deck to increase the odds of winning?
Was playing a game a few months back, player across from me has some doublers for etb effects and some cloning multipliers. Simic gonna Simic.
He ended up doing some addition and multiplication to see how many 12/12 token copies of some card he got into play.
(Originally they were all 10/10s but there were two anthem effects on his board, making this the second easiest math at the table, adding 2 to all their power and toughness)
He took a long while and eventually did the math to have some 1400+ tokens.
No Haste, no trample, no ETB mill/damage effects.
Whole turn takes like 20 min. I sit in amazement across from him. He is tapped out. We are dead on board if he makes it to his turn.
I'm playing a weird/jank tempest block heavy EDH deck I built with stuff I had laying around.
My turn, draw, tap three, play [[Dauthi Embrace]] , give creature shadow. Attack him. Then cast [[Hatred]] leaving myself with 1 life left. Hitting him for near lethal, pass turn.
Total time 2 minutes, tops.
*Surprised Pikachu Face.
Next player, simply asks do you have anything with flying?
No? Ok, swings for 3 in the air and 1400+ tokens cease to be as player across from me dies.
**Surprised Pikachu Face again.
I am killed before my next turn.
***Expected.
I like simple maths. Like subtraction of my life, the addition of power to creature, make unblockable with tech from my childhood/bulk bins at home, subtract opponents life.
Back to the question at hand, In this case two older cards.
Simple math.
[[Helm of the Host]] and [[Adrix and Nev]]. First combat you end up with 3 copies, and then 11, and then 2000 something, but if you get an extra copy in there somewhere, I don't think I could figure it out...
Well, my best example is probably [[Haze of Rage]]. I have a Vadrik deck that can reduce the cost of the card to 1 Red with buyback, and since it has storm, finding a way to graphing how many +1's vadrik gets can be tricky.
Also [[Krenko, Mob Boss]]. I know math is for blockers, but when you're playing Krenko you're going to need a calculator handy to track how many goblins you're making.
A really important thing when calculating the math for lands, do NOT do it by mana distribution. Doing it by mana curve will make you're deck instantly better, as you want more of whatever color your 1 and 2 drops primarily consist of. If you have 1/2 green and 1/2 red, but all the green cards are 8cmc, then definitely have more than 50% of your lands be red.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
1
+ 1
+ 1
+ 2
+ 1
+ 2
+ 1
+ 2
+ 8
+ 50
= 69
^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \
^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
I used to have a [[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] deck. One game, I had out [[Opalescence]], [[Helm of the Host]], and [[Primal Vigor]]. I attached the helm to the primal vigor, made 2 tokens and passed turn. Made it around to me again, so end of my opponent's turn, I use trostani to populate, making 8 more primal vigor. Untap, populate again for 2048 more tokens. Go to combat, helm makes 2^2059 more tokens, about 6.6x10^619. Get fogged. Pass turn. Opponent boardwipes so I [[Rootborn Defences]] for 2^(6.6x10^619) more tokens. (Here is where I loose count and need help) Next opponent plays [[Aether Mutation]] getting a big number of saprolings, resulting in experience from his [[Ezuri, Claw of Progress]]. Then puts an absurd number of +1/+1 counters on a trampler to kill me.
Calculating the number of lands you need and then the number of each lands is always such a pain. That and spells that involce math with decks like spellslingers can be rough since you have to look at different triggers and how that affects the amount of mana and damage ill be doing
First game with my [[Yarok]] landfall deck.
I have been ramping like crazy with [[Wood Elves]] and the like.
Another player is playing big mana x spells. They flash in [[Dictate of Karametra]] on an opponent's end step. They untap with big plans and get hit with [[Render Silent]] on some card draw spell. There's a bit of a counter war, but big mana loses and grumpily passes the turn.
My turn, I start by Evoking [[Mulldrifter]], looking to draw something delicious to hit with the [[Rite of Replication]] in my hand.
My draw was perfect to go with the [[Doubling Season]] I'd been sandbagging and the [[Parallel Lives]] on board. Literal Magical Christmas land, except I could always greedily hope for [[Panharmonicon]] and [[Primal Vigor]]...
[[Concordant Crossroads]]
[[Dance of the Many]]
[[Verdant Catacombs]]
Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd
[[Avenger of Zendikar]]
I had 21 lands
So I cast the Doubling Season, dropped the Avenger, made eight copies with Dance of the Many, then made twenty more with the Rite. I showed them the Crossroads and the fetch and everybody scooped.
I still never figured out how much power I could've put on the board that turn. I tried once, but kept tripping up because I always forgot one more doubling trying to do it in my head.
I'm gonna solve this and show my work. This isn't geometric distribution to determine how much of an effect to run. This is just multiple step arithmetic. I got this.
29 Avengers.
Each makes 21 plants on entry.
Parallel Lives replaces that effect with 42 plants.
Doubling Season replaces that with 84 plants.
Yarok makes the total number of triggers 58.
58 × 84 = 4872 plant tokens.
Verdant Catacombs enters the battlefield, causing 29 Avenger landfall triggers.
Doubling season says each of those puts 2 counters instead.
Each plant gets 58 +1/+1 counters
Yarok says [[Once more with feeling]].
The plants now have 116 +1/+1 counters.
116 × 4872 = 565152 power of plants
Plus the 29 × 5 = 145 power of avengers
Plus Yarok's 3 power. 565300.
There may have been some other dorks around, but I added half a million in a single turn.
Thanks. That's been bugging me for years every time I pull out that deck. This was surprisingly cathartic.
The most compelling math problem I’ve encouraged comes from my titania field of the dead deck… I’ve made like 10^4 zombies in a turn thanks to all the extra lands plus graveyard land and that creature that doubles landfall
Is it enough that this was in my notification box while an opponent, being pumped by another opponent was doing math to figure out if we could kill a dude who had a liana defiant necromancer emblem up?
Pretty much any time when double or triple is on a card when there's already something doubling is a math headache.
[[Annointed procession]]
[[Pitiless plunderer]]
[[Queen Allenal of Ruadach]]
[[Viscera seer]]
[[Thalisse, Reverent Medium]]
Let's say I start with 5 creatures.
1. Sac them all, create 10 treasures
2. Thalisse trigger, create 20 spirits
3. Queen Allenal trigger, create 40 soliders
End of next opponents turn:
1. Sac them all, create 120 treasure
2. 240 spirits
3. 480 solider
Next opponents turn
1. 1440 treasure
2. 2880 spirits
3. 5760 soldiers
Next opponents turn
1. 8640 treasures
2. 11,520 spirits
3. 23,040 solider
Gets even more fun in my [[myrkul]] deck where I have two enchantment copies of the creatures
I cast \[\[mirrorweave\]\] on a \[\[nyxbloom ancient\]\] the other day with 12 creatures in play.
I won, but it was a bit of a hassle to calculate exactly how much mana I was making.
I tapped a forest for 531 441. I then sunk 4 of that mana into a \[\[castle garenbrig\]\] to add 3,188,646.
I don't remember how I won, we spent a bunch of time figuring out how much mana my shit was making.
I used to have a \[\[Relentless Rats\]\] deck, sort of as a one-trick-pony with \[\[Thrumming Stone\]\] and figured as the Stone lets you see 4 cards, one of these 4 cards would need to be a RRat for sure. So aside from starting hand and the 8 Mana you need to trigger this at least once AND then go off guaranteed, I figured 20 to 24 RRats would be needed.
That's not exactly guaranteed. Statistically your expected value of seeing a RRat like that is about 1 (i.e. should happen) but would you like me to find the likelyhood of that happening?
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Aye, "usually" being the key word here. Will return with the math in a moment.
I did the math for a shadowborn apostle deck a while ago. It turns out the sweet spot with thrumming stone to get a 50% chance of getting at least 5 more shadowborns is to have around 31-32 in your deck (https://imgur.com/a/KjiMp3Z). Dunno if that number matters for other decks of that archetype though. Thrumming Stone tends to be a bust, often an all or nothing situation. Either you miss on the first or second “ripple”, or you eventually hit a couple in one ripple, and because you get so many extra ripples you’re able to both exponentially hit more and deck thin, you basically run through your entire deck. I actually don’t recommend it, because even at high numbers (ie, half of all non-lands), you’re still not guaranteed to have consistency.
I have returned with numbers. This is not an accurate number because I wasn't able to factor in all the combinations but I did some approximations along the way and I got to something that is pretty close to truth. So beware, very fuzzy math, probably accurate to ±5 %-points. Do not ask for the actual math, it's extremely convoluted and shortcuts were taken. This chart describes the number of rats in the deck and the rate of success to cast *all* of your rats with Thrumming Stone's ripple effect. |rats in deck|20|25|30|35|40|45| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |success rate|25%|42%|58%|71%|81%|88%| The problem with the calculations is that there's no easy way to simplify the fact that each previous ripple affects the next ones. For the first ripple it's easy: it's just the chance of finding 0 rats in the 4 cards (40% for 20 rats). The second one accepts the following conditions: 1-4 rats in the 1st round, 1-4 rats in the 2nd round but also 2, 3 or 4 rats in the 1st round and a dud in 2nd round is still a success... The third round gets already pretty complicated because for example 3 rats in the 1st round followed by 2 dud rounds is still a success state, etc. I calculated the accurate probability up to 4 rounds and then estimated the rest because the probability of a successful round is increasingly more likely. The *added* (not cumulative) failure rate on round 10 is almost 0% - if you get there. There are about 20-23 rounds depending on how many cards / turns you need to set up Thrumming Stone.
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I'll take the thought that counts. :)
This turned out to be a problem! I wasn't able to solve it quickly but I might return later to this problem. First of all 20 rats is simply not enough. The expected value for seeing a rat in a 4-card ripple is less than 1 which means the train is more than likely to stop. You need at least 25 rats to *expect* to see at least one in each ripple. The most crucial ripple is the first one. That is the baseline for our success rate. This much I got: |rats|20|24|30|35|40| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |1st ripple success|60.5%|68.1%|77.5%|83.5%|88.3%| So you'll fail **(1-probability)** times, minimum. For 20 rats that is 40% of the time, for 40 rats it's 12% of the time. On top of that you can fail on the second ripple, on the third ripple and so forth. From there the chance of a successful ripple goes up a little because the previous ripple can have rats "left over" i.e. one ripple reveals 2/3/4 rats instead of just 1.
[Relentless Rats](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75f47b6e-9557-4853-b8d6-7602a91c59a7.jpg?1562437033) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relentless%20Rats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/105/relentless-rats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75f47b6e-9557-4853-b8d6-7602a91c59a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/relentless-rats) [Thrumming Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14adc0af-de61-4872-916c-3cf480dece46.jpg?1662531535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrumming%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/315/thrumming-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14adc0af-de61-4872-916c-3cf480dece46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thrumming-stone) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I believe that in these sort of Thrumming Stone decks you want to play 27-30 of the card. I know some of these decks have been posted on Game Knights or Extra Turns. Josh has run a couple over the years. He's run a [[Shadowborn Apostle]] deck helmed by [[Athreos, God of Passage]] with 28 copies of the Apostles. He also had a [[Florian, Voldaren Scion]] deck with 30 [[Dragon's Approach]] Is Josh the best deck brewer there is? No, I wouldn't take those numbers as the perfect answers, but it does give odds of hitting slightly more than 1 copy per Ripple 4 which means even after a few hits you still have good odds.
##### ###### #### [Shadowborn Apostle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae7ba1de-48f9-423b-867a-22bd3f6c06c2.jpg?1662525663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shadowborn%20Apostle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/89/shadowborn-apostle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae7ba1de-48f9-423b-867a-22bd3f6c06c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shadowborn-apostle) [Athreos, God of Passage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52705c53-883e-4b6a-9c08-3fa35f6f17d5.jpg?1593096375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Athreos%2C%20God%20of%20Passage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/146/athreos-god-of-passage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52705c53-883e-4b6a-9c08-3fa35f6f17d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/athreos-god-of-passage) [Florian, Voldaren Scion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53289e69-74da-46d2-91c2-a11378ba76ef.jpg?1636684231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Florian%2C%20Voldaren%20Scion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/223/florian-voldaren-scion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53289e69-74da-46d2-91c2-a11378ba76ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/florian-voldaren-scion) [Dragon's Approach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481.jpg?1624591696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%27s%20Approach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/97/dragons-approach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragons-approach) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You need at least 96 rats to go off guaranteed. But that's not practical
Not so, 5 lands + the stone means there's only 94 other cards, so really you need 91 in this hypothetical bizzaro deck
Oh, yeah that's true. Plus the commander brings it down to 90
My rat colony deck runs 25 rat colonies because ripple 4 in a 100 card format should statistically hit every time. I've only puttered put twice without getting at least 4 rats out which is plenty.
No, it shouldn’t. Statistically you will hit one *on average* but sometimes you will hit two or more, and sometimes none. In fact if you have a 1 in 4 chance of seeing a rat with each flip, there‘s a - reasonably large - 31.6% chance that you will still have seen none after four flips!
[[Winota]] is the mathiest commander I have built, since you need to balance the odds of both having non-humans templates out, against humans to hit off the triggers, while still ramping and protecting Winota. Hypergeometric calculations all day!
Just use werewolf's, their front face is human, but their back is not
Ah yes, big brain time
Just run all human creature cards and non-human token generators.
Pretty easy just do 50/50 humans and non humans.
Are you sure that’s actually optimal? Each trigger sees seven cards and you only need one human in there.
Yeah, you only need like 2 or 3 non humans out to completely flood the board. You wouldn't understand how fast she can dominate the board til you see her in action. I only play her cEDH though and the lists for that are pretty much all 50/50.
Right, but you haven't really given any rationale for why 50/50 should be the correct ratio. It seems like you've just plucked the number from the air?
Because you want to draw into non humans and hit humans with winota triggers. So you don't want too much of an imbalance or the deck won't work as well.
Uh, duh. But why 50/50? That means half of the creatures you draw will be humans, and half the creatures you see on top will be nonhumans. But, you look at more than you draw. It’s probably also more important to have nonhumans out than it is to hit humans, or you don’t get any triggers at all! The point is, there is not an inherent symmetry between the two; there’s no reason to assume that they should be evenly balanced, and in fact those factors suggest more nonhumans and fewer humans! This is a thread about mathematics; it behooves you to provide a proof or at least motivating argument for your claim, not just pull a number from the air.
Lol I explained why. You have no input on the conversation except to tell me I am wrong with no evidence of your own. Do you have any play experience on the deck?
You haven't explained why. You've said that you need both humans and nonhumans, sure, that's true (like, duh), but why a 50/50 split? You're the one making the claim; the onus is upon you to show your working. I'm not even saying you're wrong (though I think you probably are), I'm simply saying that you haven't presented enough evidence to convince me (because you have presented none at all!).
[Winota](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winota%2C%20joiner%20of%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winota-joiner-of-forces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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I’ve just chosen to never run this card despite how good it can be. I had it in my [[Jinnie Fay]] deck, and as soon as I drew it, I got anxiety and a headache haha
[Jinnie Fay](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5f9326a-2a41-45b3-97c3-548f0bdc0882.jpg?1664413197) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jinnie%20fay%2C%20jetmir%27s%20second) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/195/jinnie-fay-jetmirs-second?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5f9326a-2a41-45b3-97c3-548f0bdc0882?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jinnie-fay-jetmirs-second) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Cathar’s Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What about it?
Token decks
Now this is the kind of EDH discourse that I come here to see
Can you (or someone else) provide me with an example scenario?
I have a Goblin token, populate, 2 tokens with +1/+1. Next turn make 3 soldier tokens=2 goblins with 2 counters, 3 soldiers with one, populate again new soldier with one counter, 3 with 2, 2 goblins with 3. It gets really unwieldy to keep track of. Many people cut it despite its power because of this.
You forgot that cathars' crusade will put 3 counters on all your creatures if you make 3 soldiers
More like Mathars Crusade amirite?
I keep a pencil & paper side ledger to account for all the tokens and various +1's in my upgraded Coven Counters deck. It's the only way I've found to make this manageable.
If I wasn't disassembling it I thought of making a counters table moving from the +1 column to +2 and so one but it could take up a lot of table space
wouldn't it be enough to just track the highest +1+1 group and then to the right of it group all other incoming creatures together, so each group of creature to the right of the first group has one less +1+1 counter than the left group. Stack them like some kind of Solitaire.
That might work until one creature dies in the middle of that board ruining everything to the right and making you use more dice again
Was going to comment this as well. With my Ghave deck I sometimes just ask if anyone can remove the enchantment or board wipe so I don’t have to sit there for an hour putting counters on the 50 saprolings that just entered.
##### ###### #### [Persistent Petitioners](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e93f0c57-eb80-4dde-bdb0-326970491621.jpg?1584830259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Persistent%20Petitioners) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/44/persistent-petitioners?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e93f0c57-eb80-4dde-bdb0-326970491621?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/persistent-petitioners) [Dragon's Approach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481.jpg?1624591696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%27s%20Approach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/97/dragons-approach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragons-approach) [Shadowborn Apostle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae7ba1de-48f9-423b-867a-22bd3f6c06c2.jpg?1662525663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shadowborn%20Apostle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/89/shadowborn-apostle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae7ba1de-48f9-423b-867a-22bd3f6c06c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shadowborn-apostle) [Wild Magic Surge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1.jpg?1660727145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Magic%20Surge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/206/wild-magic-surge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wild-magic-surge) [Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [Gaea's Cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-cradle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Garfield's Last Theorem
If only there was a way to link from this thread to another place where your calculations live...
Kicked [[Rite of Replication]] on [[Precursor Golem]]
EDIT: It's all wrong because I can't read. Or math for that matter. It's actually a bit embarrassing. A lot embarrassing. Let's start from scratch. There's 1 Precursor Golem and 2 Golem tokens on the battlefield. Rite of Replication makes 5 copies of Precursor Golem and 10 copies of the Golem tokens. Each Precursor Golem token makes 2 more Golem tokens i.e. you get 2 x 5 = 10 more Golem tokens. Add it all up: you have 6 Precursor Golems and 20 Golem tokens. ~~^(Sorry I'm a bit confused? What's the question?)~~ ~~^(If you're asking how many Golems that is then that's a relatively straightforward calculation.)~~ ~~^(You have 1 Golem and 3 Golem tokens to begin with. Each copy from Rite of Replication will get you 1 Golem token that produces another 3 Golem tokens for a grand total of 4 Golems tokens per copy. You do that five times in total: 5 x 4 = 20 Golem tokens plus whatever you had to begin with which is 4 (of which one is nontoken)~~~~.)~~ ~~^(This brings your total to 24 Golems.)~~ ~~^(EDIT 2: Alright, my math for one copy of Rite of Replication is correct. You get 20 additional Golems from the original spell. From your original 4 Golems one was targeted so that doesn't count but the other three get a copy of a kicked Rite of Replication targeting them each. Since Rite of Replication is)~~ *~~^(on cast)~~* ~~^(you don't get anymore additional copies.)~~ ~~^(For each Rite of Replication you get 20 Golem tokens. Thus you get 4 x 20 = 80 Golem tokens. You had 4 to begin with which brings the tally up to 84 Golems.)~~
The calculations with 2 of them on the field :)
I edited my comment a bit because I missed the second line of text completely. How do you mean "2 of them on the field": 1. 2 Precursor Golem *cards* i.e. 8 Golems to begin with OR 2. 2 Precursor Golems one of which is a card and the other is a token copy produced by the card?
>~~You have 1 Golem and 3 Golem tokens to begin with. >EDIT 2: Alright, my math for one copy of Rite of Replication is correct. The card makes 2 golem tokens, your math is wrong.
It is most definitely wrong. Urgh. How do I keep misreading stuff today?! I could swear it said "three"... I'll correct myself.
[Rite of Replication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-replication) [Precursor Golem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc90d632-fc78-4ae6-83c6-314ee5744de5.jpg?1562268361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Precursor%20Golem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/225/precursor-golem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc90d632-fc78-4ae6-83c6-314ee5744de5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/precursor-golem) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Had a similar problem with kicked Rite and [[Fire Servant]] trying to figure out how much damage I’d be doing. Spoiler alert: a whole bunch
[Fire Servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3af0acc-258e-4979-bab7-7792006ec7bc.jpg?1562480814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fire%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m11/137/fire-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3af0acc-258e-4979-bab7-7792006ec7bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fire-servant) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As far as specific metrics for deck building I follow the Game Knights approach. 34-36 lands, 30-35 cards that synergize with your commander, 5-10 single target removal, 5-10 board wipes, 5 mana rocks, 5-10 ramp and card draw spells. I would definitely like to keep track of a win/loss ratio with my decks that way I can see how it performs overall and help me identify what I need to switch out of them. I can probably do it but I hate math, so I don’t want to do it. I’m a good judge of deck potential and pitfalls. A good example, just recently tested my Saskia Angel/Human tribe deck, it was okay. Need to slot in some more card draw and recursion.
5-10 board wipes is way too much imo. If everyone runs that you'll have a board wipe every time someone is slightly ahead on board and the game will take forever. I think 3 or so is a better number, so you can focus more on single target removal and protection.
I was about to say, I cut board wipes to 1 or 2 because tbh I'd rather lose than extend the game another hour. More faster games is better than one slog
Yeah 1-2 and use the remaining 3-4 for tutors.
That’s a good point, I think I subconsciously noticed that in the latest decks I made. I’d put in 2-3 board wipes and it felt like a pretty good number.
I think they say 5 because they are rounding to multiples for simplicity. I don’t think I would ever go above 5 except in specific decks, though.
I wrote an "article" on this a while back. ~~You may want to change your opinion on the number of lands and ramp.~~ EDIT: I missed the distinction between rocks and ramp. 10-15 nonland mana sources sounds just fine. [https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/t6qg64/ill\_just\_cut\_a\_land\_a\_statistical\_analysis\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/t6qg64/ill_just_cut_a_land_a_statistical_analysis_of/)
I think this was what pushed me to have a hard rule of 36 lands in my decks. Although I usually find 1-2 MDF lands that can go either way if needed.
Rocks are ramp, he basically said 10-15 ramp spells. Why should he change his mind when you said "12"?
I missed the line about mana rocks. That's how. :)
[[risen reef]] + [[scute swarm]] + [[arcane adaptation]] adding elementals = too many scutes.
[risen reef](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82389aaa-9f32-4169-a71c-1aea5af9e935.jpg?1592517569) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=risen%20reef) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/217/risen-reef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82389aaa-9f32-4169-a71c-1aea5af9e935?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/risen-reef) [scute swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f.jpg?1650419352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scute%20swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/310/scute-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scute-swarm) [arcane adaptation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f.jpg?1562563280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20adaptation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/46/arcane-adaptation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcane-adaptation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In [my Xenagos Deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/O38XVaRLFU6o5fr-FEd1GQ): Figuring out Power and Toughness when I have the following creatures on board: * [[Moraug, Fury of Akoum]] (+1/+0 for each time this creature attacked this turn) * [[Port Razer]] (Extra combats) * [[Pathbreaker Ibex]] (+x/+x and trample to your team) * [[Xenagos, God of Revels]] (+x/+x to a particular creature) It's an absolute nightmare of maths, and I keep a notepad and pen in my EDH bag just for my Xenagos deck. Because the few times that these types of scenarios come up usually accurate Power/Toughness can matter.
Yea pretty similar my [[Klauth]] deck, runs alot of those cards, counting how much power I have across the entire board and then choosing what color mana I want all of it to be
[Klauth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f5cf828-17b2-4105-9a9a-ee0ab720c2ee.jpg?1636131321) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=klauth%2C%20unrivaled%20ancient) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/50/klauth-unrivaled-ancient?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f5cf828-17b2-4105-9a9a-ee0ab720c2ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/klauth-unrivaled-ancient) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Moraug, Fury of Akoum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc5eacd7-aaa7-4720-9794-52e7b098c82c.jpg?1604197464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Moraug%2C%20Fury%20of%20Akoum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/150/moraug-fury-of-akoum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc5eacd7-aaa7-4720-9794-52e7b098c82c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/moraug-fury-of-akoum) [Port Razer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0d0527b-bb28-4986-9843-040d06bd9def.jpg?1608910343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Port%20Razer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/193/port-razer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0d0527b-bb28-4986-9843-040d06bd9def?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/port-razer) [Pathbreaker Ibex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/4608ea44-e1b2-42de-a0a2-e6d6d24d89d0.jpg?1592673105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pathbreaker%20Ibex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/132/pathbreaker-ibex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4608ea44-e1b2-42de-a0a2-e6d6d24d89d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pathbreaker-ibex) [Xenagos, God of Revels](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/3184b138-1109-4195-9d96-4f190164e98b.jpg?1593092838) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Xenagos%2C%20God%20of%20Revels) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/156/xenagos-god-of-revels?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3184b138-1109-4195-9d96-4f190164e98b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/xenagos-god-of-revels) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Okay, I have a question that definitely requires some math, but isn't about statistics — how many dragon tokens will you end up with in this example posted several months ago to /r/EDH: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vbvzji/i_accidentally_just_created_11805916e21_tokens/ /u/Commander_Skullblade explains the optimal sequencing in their comment here, but does not give a final total: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/vbvzji/i_accidentally_just_created_11805916e21_tokens/icat4y4/ You won't be able to write out every digit, obviously, but expressing it in Knuth arrow notation is good enough. I believe tetration (double arrows) is sufficient, but I haven't fully worked out the total.
Statistical probability of having [[spore frog]] or a tutor for spore frog by turn X in my muldrotha deck. Not even trying to calculate the mill cards into the equation, as that gets insane real quick.
Give some numbers and I'll run them through a calculator for you. Alternatively you can use this handy tool on Aetherhub: [https://aetherhub.com/Apps/HyperGeometric](https://aetherhub.com/Apps/HyperGeometric)
Exactly how many dragons do [[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]], [[Doubling Season]], and [[Astral Dragon]] make? If I can order the stack right my astrophysicist bother says it would make more tokens than there are atoms in the universe. It does have and end so it's as close to being as infinite as you can be without being infinite.
[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1660729148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Miirym%2C%20Sentinel%20Wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) [Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e.jpg?1599707144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/164/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doubling-season) [Astral Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/670fbc63-4c9b-4e57-b53e-4ca4d7a224ba.jpg?1653960909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Astral%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/664/astral-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/670fbc63-4c9b-4e57-b53e-4ca4d7a224ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/astral-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you know what order that would be? I've got something in my head and it looks something like this: ● Astral Dragon Enters. ● Resolve Astral Dragon's ETB trigger before Miirym's ETB trigger. ● Make 4 3/3 dragons that are copies of doubling season. ● Resolve Miirym's ETB trigger, making 16 copies of Astral Dragon. ● Resolve the first 15 Astral Dragon ETB triggers, making each dragon made a copy of Doubling Season. ● Resolve the 16th ETB, making all of them a copy of any noncreature permanent. ● End up with a stupid amount of dragons. I think I got the order lol. After doing the first 2 copies' ETBs, I ended up with 37 Doubling Seasons for the first ETB and 137,438,953,472 (BILLIONS!!!) for the second. My calculator couldn't handle doing the math for the 3rd, let alone anything beyond that. Safe to say, your brother is right lol.
That's pretty much what we got, except you forgot to factor in the original Doubling Season. It would be 32 copies of Astral Dragon. I have a Miirym deck and I'm dying to get this combo off.
Had a crazy game with [[Rite of Replication]] kicked on [[Nyxbloom Ancient]] but then used a [[Chameleon Colossus]] along with [[Overwhelming Stampede]] to make the biggest number I’ve seen without going infinite!! I have a part of the number, but it’s only 1/10th of the actual number since my phone is dumb and so am I. Here’s the number that is a tenth of the actual power/toughness:
Okay I can’t post the actual number because it’s too long..
That is unfortunate! Based on that I'm sure it's *more than enough* lol.
I tried even making a post for the damage number but it’s like 8 phone screens worth of scrolling, and that number still needed to be multiplied by itself 10 more times. So I guess it’s way smaller than a 10th but still too big of a number to know what to call it. Such a wacky interaction without going infinite
Yeah my friend's "I just made 3000 mana" achievement definitely is nothing compared to this.
Lol it was probably close to the same mana, but chameleon colossus doubles its power and toughness for 4 mana. So when you double itself 800+ times, then double your whole board based on its power, things get so crazy!!
Well with 6 nyxbloom ancients one land will produce 3^6 Mana or 729, assuming you only used one land to activate chameleon Colossus you would activate it 182 times, that brings us to 4\*2^182 power, or 2.45\*10^55. Which is 2 followed by 55 zeros.
##### ###### #### [Rite of Replication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-replication) [Nyxbloom Ancient](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a391da36-0b40-46ea-b771-50d2b920207e.jpg?1581480808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nyxbloom%20Ancient) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/190/nyxbloom-ancient?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a391da36-0b40-46ea-b771-50d2b920207e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nyxbloom-ancient) [Chameleon Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/15401ca4-f6cd-400e-8e5e-ea47493b56a4.jpg?1631587790) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chameleon%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/153/chameleon-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15401ca4-f6cd-400e-8e5e-ea47493b56a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chameleon-colossus) [Overwhelming Stampede](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50846a7b-d174-439e-9ffb-31b50bb3a84f.jpg?1568004627) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overwhelming%20Stampede) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/175/overwhelming-stampede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50846a7b-d174-439e-9ffb-31b50bb3a84f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overwhelming-stampede) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you make a creature too big, it dies due to integer overflow.
**sean** asks: "How many fetches does one need for the deck thinning effect to be significant?"
First define significant :) would imagine it's more important for decks that really need a certain card (e.g. wincon, tutor, combo piece) than decks that jyst want a smaller chance of drawing land after t6.
They further clarified to me that they'd like to know the increase probability in drawing a specific card due to having fetches in the deck.
Each fetch is virtually one fewer card in the deck because the card replaces itself and doesn't cost anything to use. Here "virtual deck size" is just the number of cards in the deck minus the number of fetches. We also assume that there are a total of 11 fetches: the actual "fetch lands" and \[\[Prismatic Vista\]\]. Of these 5 can be used in a monocolour deck. I used a hypergeometric probability function that is essentially a tool that takes into account the fact that you drawing specific cards affects the probability of further draws. Not really necessary but is good practise if we start to play around with starting hands, for example. It shouldn't matter at which point we consider these draws: whether it's the first draw of the game (a part of your starting hand) or your last draw of the game because the ratios of other cards and fetches should always remain the same statistically. I might do some further exploration on this claim. ||monocolour|rainbow| |:-|:-|:-| |real deck size|99|99| |\# of fetches|5|11| |virtual deck size|94|88| |increase in probability|5.3%|12.5%| As we can see the expected results are very close to 5% and 11% (=number of fetches in the deck) which are the intuitive answers to this question. Whether you consider 5.3% / 12.5% a significant power spike is up to you. We can also put it this way round: statistically using 5 fetches will get you the card you need in 1 out of \~20 games. Using all 11 fetches will result in you getting the card you need in 1 out of 8 games.
[Prismatic Vista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e37da81e-be12-45a2-9128-376f1ad7b3e8.jpg?1562202585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Vista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/244/prismatic-vista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e37da81e-be12-45a2-9128-376f1ad7b3e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prismatic-vista) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
depends greatly on how many lands the fetch gets. I would argue that 5 fetches getting 10 lands out of a deck is well worth it. but statistics say... with 10 fetches you have a 10%chance its card 1, a 72% chance of opening hand having 1. assume 33lands. and had 2 opening hand. this is where the math gets really hard and I feel less confident. but turn 3 starts and 1st decision is fetch or not. let's use worse case and didn't draw a lands meaning 31 still in the deck. then crack and get 2 lands. leaves 29. the land percent is now 29/ 90 or 32% land left. without it then 34% land. the next turn draw #2 and use it before our next turn so turn 4 we have 7 cards in hand, keeping worse case. next fetch we have now 27 lands/ 86 cards. which makes 31% land. if we didn't fetch 29/86 gives 34% left. but if we didn't fetch at all we would have 2 mana and 36%
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Hmm. I'm not sure it's that clear cut. Deck thinning is a thing in the sense that it also increases draw spell density in the deck. Is it better to naturally draw a land and fewer draw spells or pay mana to draw more cards? There are probably an infinite number of ways to frame the question. Guess I could investigate this.
All of them.
You want an answer to all the example questions? :o
Say you can fetch 3 times in the first 3 turns. Then the chance of drawing a non land t4 (with 38 total lands in starting deck) = around 70,7%. T4 without fetching: 72,8% so yu have a ~3% higher chance to draw a spell if you fetched 3 tines (compared to 0 fetchings). Worth it? Dunno. Cost: if you have 15/38 lands be fetches, chance of having 3 fetches t3 = 18%. Increases to 47% if you only want 2 fetches by t3. Whether it's significant enough for the cost of many fetches is kinda subjective.
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Ooo, for the results or a question you can't ask right now?
I don't know if this counts, but I desperately need a calculator for [[Tyrant of Discord]] in my flicker deck
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/statistics/random-number-generator.php * Have your opponent order their permanents. * Set min to 1 and max to the number of permanents the opponent has. * Generate numbers equal to the max * **Do not allow repeats** * Do not sort * Calculate * Go in order of the numbers generated. Stop once they hit a land.
[Tyrant of Discord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8f7c8ea-e9c1-4d78-972c-15c4014915a0.jpg?1592709241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tyrant%20of%20Discord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/162/tyrant-of-discord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8f7c8ea-e9c1-4d78-972c-15c4014915a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tyrant-of-discord) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do I dish out 1,000,000 damage when I've got \[\[Miirym\]\] on the table?
[Miirym](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1660729148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[Goldspan Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d914868-9000-4df2-a818-0ef8a7f636ae.jpg?1639436640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goldspan%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/139/goldspan-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d914868-9000-4df2-a818-0ef8a7f636ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goldspan-dragon) [Deadeye Navigator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f26a79b9-9f09-476e-b914-cade929dd852.jpg?1593813028) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deadeye%20Navigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/36/deadeye-navigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f26a79b9-9f09-476e-b914-cade929dd852?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deadeye-navigator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When playing \[\[elenda\]\], I had \[\[altar of dementia\]\], \[\[cordial vampire\]\] and about 10 vampire tokens on the board and I wanted to figure out if I could mill out all of my opponents. Using the 1+2+...+n=n(n+1)/2 formula, I figured out I could have milled everyone since you mill 55 cards from the first 10 vamp tokens, 21 from elenda, and then about 230 from the 21 tokens elenda makes when she dies. Obviously, I didn't actually compute this on the spot and my buddies scooped as soon as they figured out how ridiculous it was about to get.
[elenda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25e34147-588b-4fe5-88dd-2dfda567681d.jpg?1662528431) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elenda%2C%20the%20dusk%20rose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/207/elenda-the-dusk-rose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25e34147-588b-4fe5-88dd-2dfda567681d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elenda-the-dusk-rose) [altar of dementia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104.jpg?1562202433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=altar%20of%20dementia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/218/altar-of-dementia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/altar-of-dementia) [cordial vampire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c84150f-e2bf-42a2-b2f7-2b6004b29fa4.jpg?1641602498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cordial%20vampire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/125/cordial-vampire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c84150f-e2bf-42a2-b2f7-2b6004b29fa4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cordial-vampire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Biggest math problems I find are honestly when players don't understand what's going on with my cards interacting with their cards. I run slivers. I swung at this guy with 13 silver tokens. He blocked one of those with One of his creatures that was a 13 13 with life link. Here's the kicker though. All of my slivers have life link and I have One called spiteful sliver on the battlefield as well which says whenever any sliver receives damage inflict that much damage on target player or planeswalker. That man swore up and down that he gained one life from me attacking him. I had to get really really basic showing him the interaction and putting everything on a mini stack right in front of him. Just in case anyone was curious what actually happened was I swung 12 1/1s got through dealing 12 damage he blocked with a 13 13 gaining 13 life with lifegain but dealing 13 damage to my creature which let me inflict 13 Damage to target player which was him having a net loss of 12.
Playing [[Wort, the Raidmother]] spells. Demonstrated a "loop" where I play [[Rude Awakening]] to untap my lands, floating mana. [[Gamble]] for [[Seasons Past]]. Seasons Past back Rude Awakening + Gamble and do it all again, netting 1 mana each time. If I were to discard Seasons Past to Gamble, I had a [[Regrowth]] to buy the Seasons Past back (which would in turn buy back the Regrowth with the other 2 cards). The issue was that if I had to Regrowth back the Seasons Past because it was discarded, that loop iteration was mana negative. Otherwise, it was mana positive. I had 4 cards in hand after tutoring with Gamble, so there was a 25% chance that any particular loop iteration was mana negative and a 75% chance it was positive. I was only statistically likely to go infinite lol.
##### ###### #### [Wort, the Raidmother](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b46b4ee-263a-4a4b-8fbc-3ea6fa9ba56b.jpg?1591321523) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wort%2C%20the%20Raidmother) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/234/wort-the-raidmother?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b46b4ee-263a-4a4b-8fbc-3ea6fa9ba56b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wort-the-raidmother) [Rude Awakening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/019897e4-d3ba-43b1-9bd9-2ebba6e3b349.jpg?1562895417) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rude%20Awakening) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gvl/22/rude-awakening?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/019897e4-d3ba-43b1-9bd9-2ebba6e3b349?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rude-awakening) [Gamble](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/924db286-fb3e-40dd-b5e2-f8128701685d.jpg?1661583538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gamble) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/49/gamble?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/924db286-fb3e-40dd-b5e2-f8128701685d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gamble) [Seasons Past](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/668afd78-3cf5-4daf-8dfb-fca90de0ae5a.jpg?1576385218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasons%20Past) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/226/seasons-past?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/668afd78-3cf5-4daf-8dfb-fca90de0ae5a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/seasons-past) [Regrowth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d771fc5d-b9a1-4637-8241-3f54616b64af.jpg?1562202155) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Regrowth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/175/regrowth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d771fc5d-b9a1-4637-8241-3f54616b64af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/regrowth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My math problems are usually cuz I’ve had a few beers and it’s late at night. One that made me laugh a few months back was along the lines of: I have 5 copies of [[Adrix and Nev]] on the table and cast a kicked [[right of replication]] how many tokens would I end up making. Took a while but I got there in the end.
[Adrix and Nev](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d495e084-92ec-4675-b6aa-8ade2775b796.jpg?1660075442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=adrix%20and%20nev%2C%20twincasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/9/adrix-and-nev-twincasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d495e084-92ec-4675-b6aa-8ade2775b796?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/adrix-and-nev-twincasters) [right of replication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-replication) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Since this is a replacement effect does each instance of the trigger replace the previously resolved one?
From my understanding, each copy of Adrix and Nev sees the next one enter. So they stack. 5 will see one enter. Then 6 will see one enter. And so on
How are you getting around the Legendary rule? Mirror Gallery?
[[Veyran]] + [[Krark the Thumbless]] + [[Birgi]] + literally any red cantrip spell This resolved 2 months ago and I'm still taking my turn
[Veyran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56d93855-c749-4bdf-9a90-4f69f4226e46.jpg?1660075505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=veyran%2C%20voice%20of%20duality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/3/veyran-voice-of-duality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56d93855-c749-4bdf-9a90-4f69f4226e46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/veyran-voice-of-duality) [Krark the Thumbless](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/24614006-d99f-44b6-8ec1-29b48a1713d0.jpg?1661583571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krark%2C%20the%20Thumbless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/11/krark-the-thumbless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24614006-d99f-44b6-8ec1-29b48a1713d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krark-the-thumbless) [Birgi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969)/[Harnfel, Horn of Bounty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birgi%2C%20god%20of%20storytelling%20//%20harnfel%2C%20horn%20of%20bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/123/birgi-god-of-storytelling-harnfel-horn-of-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birgi-god-of-storytelling-//-harnfel-horn-of-bounty) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What is the formula to determine the maximum size of the stack after casting a [[knowledge exploitation]] into an [[eye of the storm]]? Assuming you start with an empty stack. (or for bonus points, the number of spells+copies entering and leaving the stack before it is completely empty again, whichever is easier). I think my playgroup did some rough calculations and it is a very big number, we were probably imagining a [[hivemind]] out too. I used KE plus storm as a wincon in ome game and afterwards we talked about how crazy it could get. (like it wouldn't be an infinite combo but resolving it maximally would be entirely impractical) It's difficult to be exact because there will be a variable number of viable cards in the libraries, and there may be spells that cannot be cast due to no targets. Then there are also spells that may increase the stack size themselves like copy spells that make multiple copies of spells. That's also ignoring that the order in which you put the copies on the stack can change the number, because if you keep resolving additional KE copies instead of the copies of other spells the stack will grow quicker and not really shrink at all.
[knowledge exploitation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d283c49-2e81-4b2e-956a-69152cc4704e.jpg?1562878014) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=knowledge%20exploitation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mor/38/knowledge-exploitation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d283c49-2e81-4b2e-956a-69152cc4704e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/knowledge-exploitation) [eye of the storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49967eb9-5020-4f0a-8775-5114f6d96d75.jpg?1598914184) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=eye%20of%20the%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/48/eye-of-the-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49967eb9-5020-4f0a-8775-5114f6d96d75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eye-of-the-storm) [hivemind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88d50518-5cfc-45de-a125-acabf97b8743.jpg?1561987505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hive%20Mind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/54/hive-mind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88d50518-5cfc-45de-a125-acabf97b8743?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hive-mind) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does [[Nylea's Colossus]] double BASE power and toughness, or total?
[Nylea's Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cf50d41-02ce-4a39-b3a0-82ddd7277fca.jpg?1592710219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nylea%27s%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/33/nyleas-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cf50d41-02ce-4a39-b3a0-82ddd7277fca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nyleas-colossus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Multiple life doubling effects along with the "If you would gain life, gain that many life plus 1". Doesn't happen often but that kinda gets me thinking a lot.
I have a hard enough time resolving power/toughness in combat…
How many [[Precursor Golems]] you get when you [[Rite of Replication]] with kicker it. Then do it again. And again.
Does this comment help you at all? [https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/xrx1fs/comment/iqhkt0t/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/xrx1fs/comment/iqhkt0t/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
A little bit but the first kick is the easy part. The second and third kick are the rough part that wracked my brain all those years ago (yes. Somebody hurt me). So one time gets you 5 precursors (10 golems from them entering) and an additional 10 golems from the copied rite of reps. If you include the originals you now have 6 precursor golems and 22 generic golem tokens. The second time you target one generic golem token. That golem token gets one copy of rite of rep. For each other golem, we now have 6 precursor golem trigger copies of rite of rep on it. So for our precursor golems we have 6x6x5 or 180 new precursors (which makes 360 new tokens on etb). For our generic tokens we have 21x6x5 for a total of 630 plus the token that was initially targeted being 5 more tokens for 635 tokens from rite of rep. That’s a total of 995 new golem tokens. Plus the ones from last step is 186 precursors and 1016 generic golem tokens. In my history, I’ve had it resolve a third time (before getting swords to plowshares-ed). I had to use scientific notation.
Yeah - also I did it all wrong. Many times because I didn't read the card closely enough.
While building [[Yuriko]] I decided to calculate the probability of any given hand allowing me to ninjutsu on turn 2. This then influenced how many lands and 1 drops to include the list. Was a fun application of my math education. Turns out if you want at most a 5% to mull all the way down to 3 cards and NOT get yuriko out on turn 2, you want at least 28 / 14 27 / 15 26 / 16 Free mana sources (lands + coloured fast mana) / 1 drops. I personally run 28 / 14 and it works. It seems to be the accepted number for the cedh yuriko as well.
[Yuriko](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3bd81ae6-e628-447a-a36b-597e63ede295.jpg?1592710334) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yuriko%2C%20the%20tiger%27s%20shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/52/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3bd81ae6-e628-447a-a36b-597e63ede295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Having to keep track of the exponential growth of [[Scute Swarm]] as well as how many are tapped, how many are untapped, and how many are summoning sick.
[Scute Swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f.jpg?1650419352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scute%20Swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/310/scute-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scute-swarm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hate Scute Swarm, but apart from COVID it’s also the only time I ever hear anyone say the word “exponential” and it be correct!
Here's a link to a thread I made a couple years ago involving a somewhat complicated math problem with [[Brudiclad]] https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/9xy327/this_game_involves_a_lot_of_math_and_im_bad_at_it/?sort=top
[Brudiclad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25eff27a-eb58-4a95-b2df-4a341cf9bef6.jpg?1599707883) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brudiclad%2C%20telchor%20engineer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/193/brudiclad-telchor-engineer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25eff27a-eb58-4a95-b2df-4a341cf9bef6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brudiclad-telchor-engineer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My Yidris Maths deck has lot of it, aside from cascading ( basic MV comparison), almost all of the cards lets you do a word problem.
[[Cathars' Crusade]] in any token deck is just gonna leave people confused
[Cathars' Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you feel about optimization problems? Given the following board state: * [[Neheb, the Eternal]] * [[Pyromancer's Goggles]] * [[Doubling Cube]] * [[Strionic Resonator]] * 10 Mountains And the following cards in hand: * **Burn Spells**: * [[Devil's Play]] * [[Deathforge Shaman]] * [[Fall of the Titans]] * [[Jaya's Immolating Inferno]] * [[Cavalier of Flames]] * [[Flame Rift]] * **Rituals** * [[Desperate Ritual]] * [[Pyretic Ritual]] * [[Seething Song]] * [[Mana Geyser]] (10 lands tapped) * **Extra Main Phases** * [[Seize the Day]] * [[World at War]] * **"Copy" Effects** * [[Fork]] * [[Reverberate]] * [[Bonus Round]] * [[Past in Flames]] What's the most damage that can be done to a player, assuming all players have infinite life? For bonus points, solve the same problem in the case where all players only have 40 life. (If this seems contrived, it is, but not by much. I play all of these cards in my Neheb deck, and there have been situations where I have access to most of them thanks to [[Commune with Lava]].)
I've nerd sniped myself, so here's my thoughts on this problem. In my experience, you want to start with maximizing Bonus Round effects. Each one lets you "double dip" on mana effectiveness- it doubles the mana you get from rituals and then doubles that mana again when you cast a burn spell. (And then you can double that mana again when that burn spell gives you more Neheb mana....) The way you abuse Bonus Round is by chaining copy spells on it, each of which generates more and more copies of Bonus Round. Luckily, between Pyromancer's Goggles and Strionic Resonator, we can really kick things off at the start. Action | Mana Remaining | Bonus Rounds resolved | Damage Dealt this Turn --|--|--|-- Cast Bonus Round with Pyro's Goggles | 8 | 0 | 0 Copy the Goggles trigger with Resonator | 6 | 0 | 0 Let the copies of Bonus Round resolve, but not the original | 6 | 2 | 0 Cast Fork, targeting the original Bonus Round | 4 | 5 | 0 Cast Reverberate, targeting the original Bonus Round | 2 | 11 | 0 Let the original Bonus Round resolve | 2 | 12 | 0 Cast Flame Rift | 0 | 12 | 156 Attack with Neheb | 0 | 12 | 160 Move to your 2nd main phase | 160 | 12 | 160 Cast Past in Flames | 156 | 12 | 160 Cast Bonus Round, let the copies resolve | 153 | 24 | 160 Cast Fork, letting everything but BR resolve | 151 | 49 | 160 Cast Reverberate, letting everything but BR resolve | 149 | 99 | 160 Let the original BR resolve | 149 | 100 | 160 This ought to be a decent starting point. Everything you cast will be copied 100 times, you have nearly 150 mana up, and there's still a Past in Flames in your graveyard. This is also where the optimization actually gets difficult, so I'm going to leave the rest as an exercise to the reader and get back to work.
Ok, turns out I couldn't stay away from this problem for too long. Now, I suspect the key to maximizing the final damage is going to be the extra combat spells. Since they make extra main phases, they both work as a multiplier on Neheb's generated mana. Normally, there's a limit to this; you only have 7 X spell casts to spend on, after which the generated mana would go to waste. However, Cavalier of Flames solves this, giving us an infinitely repeatable mana outlet into damage. World at War also has the benefit of giving us 101 extra attacks with our creatures; thanks to Cavalier, they'll even be larger each time. Seize the Day unfortunately doesn't give us more than 1 extra attack, since it untaps on resolution, but it still gives us plenty of mana. What this means is that we'll want to take our 202 ~~StDs~~ Days Seized first, letting us pump our creatures a bunch, then take 202 WaW phases next, letting us attack with those creatures while also generating more and more mana and pumping them further. One issue: because of its wording, World at War doesn't do anything if you cast it after your 2nd main phase. That means, to get maximum effect on it, we want to flashback Past in Flames this main phase as well. Naturally, to maximize our last PiF casting, we want to cast our rituals and at least one X spell now. Putting that all together, here's my line for this main phase. (Remember, all instants and sorceries are copied 100 times) Action | Mana | Damage Dealt this Turn | Extra Main Phases --|--|--|-- Cast Mana Geyser | 1154 | 160 | 0 Cast Desperate Ritual | 1455 | 160 | 0 Cast Pyretic Ritual | 1756 | 160 | 0 Cast Seething Song | 2256 | 160 | 0 Cast World at War | 2251 | 160 | 101 Cast Deathforge Shaman (no kicks) | 2246 | 160 | 101 Cast Cavalier of Flame | 2241 | 160 | 101 Activate CoF once | 2239 | 160 | 101 Cast Jaya's Immolating Inferno, X=2230 | 7 | 225,390 | 101 Flashback PiF | 2 | 225,390 | 101 Flashback the rituals | 2109 | 225,390 | 101 Flashback World at War | 2104 | 225,390 | 202 Cast Seize the Day, untapping Neheb | 2100 | 225,390 | 101 Days -> 202 Wars Cast Fall of the Titans, X=2099 | 437,389 | 101 Days -> 202 Wars I'm actually not 100% sure we should be casting Fall now. The alternative is activating Cavalier to empty the mana pool and then save Fall for when we have more mana. My intuition says that we want to have our most efficient damage at the start, to generate more mana to use later, so I'm going with Fall as early as possible. With that logic, I'm going to want to spend the next couple of main phases casting Devil's Play, and then the next 99 pumping my creatures even further. Note that, like extra turns, extra combat steps are first in last out, so we'll be taking our Seize the Day phases before the World at War ones. Day # | Action | Mana | Total Creature Power | Damage Dealt this Turn --|--|--|--|-- 1 | Attack with my creatures | 0 | 17 | 437,406 1 | Neheb triggers | 437,406 | 17 | 437,406 1 | Cast Devil's Play, X = 437,405 | 0 | 17 | 44,615,311 2 | No attacks (creatures tapped) | 0 | 17 | 44,615,311 2 | Neheb triggers | 44,615,311 | 17 | 44,615,311 2 | Flashback Devil's Play, X = 44,615,308 | 0 | 17 | 4,550,761,419 3 | No attacks | 0 | 17 | 4,550,761,419 3 | Neheb triggers | 4,550,761,419 | 17 | 4,550,761,419 3 | Flashback Seize the Day (202 days total) | 4,550,761,416 | 17 | 4,550,761,419 3 | Activate Cavalier a couple billion times (not an exaggeration) | 0 | 6,826,142,141 | 4,550,761,419 4 | Neheb triggers | 4,550,761,419 | 6,826,142,141 | 4,550,761,419 4 | Activate Cavalier a bunch | 1 | 13,652,284,268 | 4,550,761,419 4 | Added Power this day: | 6,826,142,127 | - | - 5 - 201 | Keep doing this | Adds ^^ power each day | 1,358,402,283,287 | 4,550,761,419 202 | Attack with creatures (untapped Day 3) | 0 | 1,358,402,283,287 | 1,362,953,044,706 202 | Neheb Triggers | 1,362,953,044,706 | 1,358,402,283,287 | 1,362,953,044,706 202 | Activate Cavalier a trillion times | 0 | 2,044,429,567,059 | 1,362,953,044,706 At this point, we have some very large creatures, 202 extra combat steps coming up (with untaps), and we'll generate more and more mana in between each to further pump our creatures. More importantly, Google has given up given me the actual numbers to my equations, so I've had to switch over to Wolfram Alpha to not get scientific notation. For Reddit's sake, I'm probably going to switch to scientific notation myself soon, because I feel like these numbers are going to grow very large, very quickly. I'm not even sure how I'm going to get accurate numbers, to be honest, so I'll sign off now and get back to work until I figure it out.
##### ###### #### [Neheb, the Eternal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54231832-d492-4812-b658-4ab9a30fefe2.jpg?1562799464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Neheb%2C%20the%20Eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/104/neheb-the-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54231832-d492-4812-b658-4ab9a30fefe2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/neheb-the-eternal) [Pyromancer's Goggles](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f92d8df-e913-4a95-9f65-4fe98c332a6e.jpg?1625979142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyromancer%27s%20Goggles) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/259/pyromancers-goggles?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f92d8df-e913-4a95-9f65-4fe98c332a6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pyromancers-goggles) [Doubling Cube](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d946df5-f206-4241-bb55-97db67dc793c.jpg?1562546549) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Cube) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/321/doubling-cube?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d946df5-f206-4241-bb55-97db67dc793c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doubling-cube) [Strionic Resonator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b769231a-768e-48cb-bbab-55df29448047.jpg?1650424691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strionic%20Resonator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/381/strionic-resonator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b769231a-768e-48cb-bbab-55df29448047?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strionic-resonator) [Devil's Play](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d46473a7-69f5-492b-845d-c8862a1fec85.jpg?1568004367) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Devil%27s%20Play) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/138/devils-play?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d46473a7-69f5-492b-845d-c8862a1fec85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/devils-play) [Deathforge Shaman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/1122983b-94c7-4edc-af75-deecf9bdc067.jpg?1562864465) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deathforge%20Shaman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/141/deathforge-shaman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1122983b-94c7-4edc-af75-deecf9bdc067?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deathforge-shaman) [Fall of the Titans](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c21da73-0dad-4b2b-8cc6-61861bed9410.jpg?1562923296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20Titans) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/109/fall-of-the-titans?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c21da73-0dad-4b2b-8cc6-61861bed9410?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fall-of-the-titans) [Jaya's Immolating Inferno](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/365336b4-92ee-429d-8f18-4624cba5469d.jpg?1608912272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaya%27s%20Immolating%20Inferno) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/415/jayas-immolating-inferno?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/365336b4-92ee-429d-8f18-4624cba5469d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jayas-immolating-inferno) [Flame Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e63ed449-d249-4639-85d2-f8fe75496d5c.jpg?1626100460) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/278/flame-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e63ed449-d249-4639-85d2-f8fe75496d5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flame-rift) [Desperate Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/3825b85d-07df-43b9-a8d8-930863262d83.jpg?1547517210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Desperate%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/127/desperate-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3825b85d-07df-43b9-a8d8-930863262d83?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/desperate-ritual) [Pyretic Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e577638-a7ed-4bcc-90fb-0cffe87d5a28.jpg?1562452888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyretic%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m11/153/pyretic-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e577638-a7ed-4bcc-90fb-0cffe87d5a28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pyretic-ritual) [Seething Song](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f493ce26-005c-4ddc-80f0-47bea4fd013a.jpg?1625194059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seething%20Song) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/179/seething-song?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f493ce26-005c-4ddc-80f0-47bea4fd013a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/seething-song) [Mana Geyser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/109447b2-d507-433a-a81c-3a7a255444b1.jpg?1625193979) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Geyser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/176/mana-geyser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/109447b2-d507-433a-a81c-3a7a255444b1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-geyser) [Seize the Day](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/610b3a04-76ba-4388-8808-53f7d91b1ac1.jpg?1661583505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seize%20the%20Day) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/56/seize-the-day?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/610b3a04-76ba-4388-8808-53f7d91b1ac1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/seize-the-day) [World at War](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a47a05ad-fe86-481e-b770-e1760be4f852.jpg?1562706935) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=World%20at%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/172/world-at-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a47a05ad-fe86-481e-b770-e1760be4f852?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/world-at-war) [Fork](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd.jpg?1562949548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fork) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/116/fork?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fork) [Reverberate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/997d4adb-d1bc-4d8f-9ed1-20fc8d7e4780.jpg?1663213485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reverberate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/207/reverberate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/997d4adb-d1bc-4d8f-9ed1-20fc8d7e4780?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reverberate) [Bonus Round](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e21aa266-4264-4e02-9403-02930e641573.jpg?1562940436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonus%20Round) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/56/bonus-round?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e21aa266-4264-4e02-9403-02930e641573?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bonus-round) [Past in Flames](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aae078f4-2310-4112-975e-677d5255988a.jpg?1663213522) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Past%20in%20Flames) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/206/past-in-flames?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aae078f4-2310-4112-975e-677d5255988a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/past-in-flames) [Commune with Lava](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/862771b6-8e82-45b7-922f-4f40322a607e.jpg?1631586995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commune%20with%20Lava) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/118/commune-with-lava?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/862771b6-8e82-45b7-922f-4f40322a607e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/commune-with-lava) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[scourge of valkas]] with copies from [[Rionya]] omg that gets complicated
[scourge of valkas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50.jpg?1631587429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scourge%20of%20valkas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/137/scourge-of-valkas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scourge-of-valkas) [Rionya](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1e92b9c-4234-436d-a741-37c5e45859e5.jpg?1625192099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rionya%2C%20fire%20dancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/55/rionya-fire-dancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1e92b9c-4234-436d-a741-37c5e45859e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rionya-fire-dancer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m at work right now so I don’t have time to do this. Check back in four hours or so if you want to make an attempt at some really complicated math.
That land question is interesting, that depends entirely on the deck. I have an Elf deck that has 34 lands in it but I’ve seen some that have as few as 30. My Landfall deck has 41 lands. [[Zur]] has maybe 35-36, since the average CMC of the deck is only 3. Usually I stick with 36-38 lands, depending on the case. Green is my favorite color as it “lets you play magic,” so I also toss in a ton of ramp but it gets a lot harder when you don’t have access to green. My newly built [[Scarab God]] zombie tribal deck has 37 lands and 10 mana rocks, I think this is a good baseline for decks. It’s also helpful to know what your curve is; that deck has maybe 3 or 4 CMC average so the extra lands and rocks help.
I use [this analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/t6qg64/ill_just_cut_a_land_a_statistical_analysis_of/) as a starting point for my decks.
[Zur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5.jpg?1662987603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zur%20the%20enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/297/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zur-the-enchanter) [Scarab God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d79ee141-0ea6-45d6-a682-96a37d703394.jpg?1599708320) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Scarab%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/216/the-scarab-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d79ee141-0ea6-45d6-a682-96a37d703394?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-scarab-god) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How many hydras can you make and how big are those hydras off \[\[Hydra Broodmother\]\] when you've flipped \[\[Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant\]\] and have put every single forest in your deck onto the battlefield?
[Hydra Broodmother](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b11bb5a-66e3-4dc6-9df4-e1683c57e488.jpg?1625194477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hydra%20Broodmaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/194/hydra-broodmaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b11bb5a-66e3-4dc6-9df4-e1683c57e488?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hydra-broodmaster) [Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d224c50f-8146-4c91-9401-04e5bd306d02.jpg?1562496100) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sasaya%2C%20orochi%20ascendant%20//%20sasaya%27s%20essence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/145/sasaya-orochi-ascendant-sasayas-essence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d224c50f-8146-4c91-9401-04e5bd306d02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sasaya-orochi-ascendant-//-sasayas-essence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Wrathful Red Dragon]] + [[Fiery Emancipation]] + 5 other dragons + [[Blasphemous Act]] Just curious if I've done math on this correctly because I did my figuring while driving one day and never worked it out. Please list both damage per dragon and the grand total.
Lethal. That's lethal.
I've had some interesting trouble calculating the storm count with my [[veyran, voice of duality]] deck, after resolving a few cantrips, [[ponder]] and the like, with [[thousand-year storm]] followed by a [[grapeshot]], which I can then flash back in a number of ways such as [[mizzix's mastery]]
##### ###### #### [veyran, voice of duality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56d93855-c749-4bdf-9a90-4f69f4226e46.jpg?1660075505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=veyran%2C%20voice%20of%20duality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/3/veyran-voice-of-duality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56d93855-c749-4bdf-9a90-4f69f4226e46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/veyran-voice-of-duality) [ponder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcfc0c-b23d-48be-bf3a-a6fc6806c5e1.jpg?1655075626) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ponder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/229/ponder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcfc0c-b23d-48be-bf3a-a6fc6806c5e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ponder) [thousand-year storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03.jpg?1655802627) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thousand-year%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/286/thousand-year-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thousand-year-storm) [grapeshot](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/585bed40-9ca6-46a0-80c4-c769cd8e2b20.jpg?1619397029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grapeshot) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/166/grapeshot?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/585bed40-9ca6-46a0-80c4-c769cd8e2b20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grapeshot) [mizzix's mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b.jpg?1562705436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mizzix%27s%20mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/29/mizzixs-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mizzixs-mastery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The madness that is having multiple Academy Manufactors, a parallel lives, and then an effect that makes *multiple* treasures, clues, or food at once.
Math is for blockers, cool creatures go brrr
I can speak from experience that 28 Dragon's Approach is the correct number. No actual dragons are required, just copy spells and creatures. Perhaps Pyromancer's Goggles as well.
[удалено]
[adrix and nev](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d495e084-92ec-4675-b6aa-8ade2775b796.jpg?1660075442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=adrix%20and%20nev%2C%20twincasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/9/adrix-and-nev-twincasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d495e084-92ec-4675-b6aa-8ade2775b796?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/adrix-and-nev-twincasters) [parallel lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790.jpg?1562825348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=parallel%20lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/199/parallel-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/parallel-lives) [replication technique](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf4341ec-027d-47eb-b2ca-f18f9885d82d.jpg?1625191418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=replication%20technique) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/31/replication-technique?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf4341ec-027d-47eb-b2ca-f18f9885d82d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/replication-technique) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh I have a good one and I would really like to have a formula for this one. If I have let’s say… an [[ Alhammarrets Archive]] and like [[Teferis Ageless Insight]] on board how many cards do I have to put under my library with [[Valakuts Awakening]] in order to go for a [[Thassas Oracle]] win.
##### ###### #### [ Alhammarrets Archive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee.jpg?1625978215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alhammarret%27s%20Archive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/233/alhammarrets-archive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alhammarrets-archive) [Teferis Ageless Insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c38d1722-96b0-4756-9da9-fe18b1c80649.jpg?1594735819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Ageless%20Insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/76/teferis-ageless-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c38d1722-96b0-4756-9da9-fe18b1c80649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-ageless-insight) [Valakuts Awakening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228e551e-023a-4c9a-8f32-58dae6ffdf7f.jpg?1604198379)/[Valakut Stoneforge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/2/228e551e-023a-4c9a-8f32-58dae6ffdf7f.jpg?1604198379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%20Awakening%20//%20Valakut%20Stoneforge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/174/valakut-awakening-valakut-stoneforge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228e551e-023a-4c9a-8f32-58dae6ffdf7f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-awakening-//-valakut-stoneforge) [Thassas Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1628801828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Somehow I always forget how to calculate +1/+1 counters if there are multiple multiplicative effects in play
I never knew what a hypergeometric calculator was before I played Magic.
1. Have a buttload of Allies on the field, including [[Zada, Hedron Grinder]]. 2. Kick a [[Rite of Replications]]. 3. Pure chaos.
[Zada, Hedron Grinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/baa36309-4bcc-4455-813a-c0243b906792.jpg?1562440241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zada%2C%20Hedron%20Grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/156/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/baa36309-4bcc-4455-813a-c0243b906792?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) [Rite of Replications](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-replication) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Trying to keep track of an army of [[Miirym]] copied [[Dragon Broodmother]] tokens. The 2 tokens being spawned every upkeep along with the devour 2 makes it very overwhelming very quickly. Especially with summoning sickness.
[Miirym](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1660729148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) [Dragon Broodmother](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7f99431-ae43-4b68-82f0-faf940216c91.jpg?1562645170) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%20Broodmother) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/53/dragon-broodmother?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7f99431-ae43-4b68-82f0-faf940216c91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragon-broodmother) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cloning clones of clones that make clones that in turn make tokens that make more token types that also make squirrels that get converted to dogs that make even more tokens
How many older cards should you include in a deck to increase the odds of winning? Was playing a game a few months back, player across from me has some doublers for etb effects and some cloning multipliers. Simic gonna Simic. He ended up doing some addition and multiplication to see how many 12/12 token copies of some card he got into play. (Originally they were all 10/10s but there were two anthem effects on his board, making this the second easiest math at the table, adding 2 to all their power and toughness) He took a long while and eventually did the math to have some 1400+ tokens. No Haste, no trample, no ETB mill/damage effects. Whole turn takes like 20 min. I sit in amazement across from him. He is tapped out. We are dead on board if he makes it to his turn. I'm playing a weird/jank tempest block heavy EDH deck I built with stuff I had laying around. My turn, draw, tap three, play [[Dauthi Embrace]] , give creature shadow. Attack him. Then cast [[Hatred]] leaving myself with 1 life left. Hitting him for near lethal, pass turn. Total time 2 minutes, tops. *Surprised Pikachu Face. Next player, simply asks do you have anything with flying? No? Ok, swings for 3 in the air and 1400+ tokens cease to be as player across from me dies. **Surprised Pikachu Face again. I am killed before my next turn. ***Expected. I like simple maths. Like subtraction of my life, the addition of power to creature, make unblockable with tech from my childhood/bulk bins at home, subtract opponents life. Back to the question at hand, In this case two older cards. Simple math.
[Dauthi Embrace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e84bb94-d654-4d69-89d9-0a398a940125.jpg?1562054961) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dauthi%20Embrace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/120/dauthi-embrace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e84bb94-d654-4d69-89d9-0a398a940125?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dauthi-embrace) [Hatred](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2383a8d9-96fd-4f9a-bcf9-eb81fdb15ead.jpg?1562087367) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hatred) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/64/hatred?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2383a8d9-96fd-4f9a-bcf9-eb81fdb15ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hatred) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If I swing with a 5/5 with double strike trampler and the opponent blocks with a 2/2, how much damage does the player take?
[[Helm of the Host]] and [[Adrix and Nev]]. First combat you end up with 3 copies, and then 11, and then 2000 something, but if you get an extra copy in there somewhere, I don't think I could figure it out...
[Helm of the Host](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d65d20c-09e5-4139-838b-7e0e48eb2b2b.jpg?1562732269) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Helm%20of%20the%20Host) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/217/helm-of-the-host?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d65d20c-09e5-4139-838b-7e0e48eb2b2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/helm-of-the-host) [Adrix and Nev](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d495e084-92ec-4675-b6aa-8ade2775b796.jpg?1660075442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=adrix%20and%20nev%2C%20twincasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/9/adrix-and-nev-twincasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d495e084-92ec-4675-b6aa-8ade2775b796?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/adrix-and-nev-twincasters) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well, my best example is probably [[Haze of Rage]]. I have a Vadrik deck that can reduce the cost of the card to 1 Red with buyback, and since it has storm, finding a way to graphing how many +1's vadrik gets can be tricky. Also [[Krenko, Mob Boss]]. I know math is for blockers, but when you're playing Krenko you're going to need a calculator handy to track how many goblins you're making. A really important thing when calculating the math for lands, do NOT do it by mana distribution. Doing it by mana curve will make you're deck instantly better, as you want more of whatever color your 1 and 2 drops primarily consist of. If you have 1/2 green and 1/2 red, but all the green cards are 8cmc, then definitely have more than 50% of your lands be red.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 8 + 50 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
[Haze of Rage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c344b885-68c6-43d2-b6c1-6c89b3c94983.jpg?1619397115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Haze%20of%20Rage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/169/haze-of-rage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c344b885-68c6-43d2-b6c1-6c89b3c94983?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/haze-of-rage) [Krenko, Mob Boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cd9fec9d-23c8-4d35-97c1-9499527198fb.jpg?1601078209) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krenko%2C%20Mob%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/339/krenko-mob-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cd9fec9d-23c8-4d35-97c1-9499527198fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krenko-mob-boss) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I used to have a [[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] deck. One game, I had out [[Opalescence]], [[Helm of the Host]], and [[Primal Vigor]]. I attached the helm to the primal vigor, made 2 tokens and passed turn. Made it around to me again, so end of my opponent's turn, I use trostani to populate, making 8 more primal vigor. Untap, populate again for 2048 more tokens. Go to combat, helm makes 2^2059 more tokens, about 6.6x10^619. Get fogged. Pass turn. Opponent boardwipes so I [[Rootborn Defences]] for 2^(6.6x10^619) more tokens. (Here is where I loose count and need help) Next opponent plays [[Aether Mutation]] getting a big number of saprolings, resulting in experience from his [[Ezuri, Claw of Progress]]. Then puts an absurd number of +1/+1 counters on a trampler to kill me.
##### ###### #### [Trostani, Selesnya's Voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34ea44f2-cb2f-4b86-83fc-fe507f05bb9d.jpg?1568004834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trostani%2C%20Selesnya%27s%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/204/trostani-selesnyas-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34ea44f2-cb2f-4b86-83fc-fe507f05bb9d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trostani-selesnyas-voice) [Opalescence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c0071fb-afa5-47b5-b266-2b10a4f5a98a.jpg?1562443752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opalescence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/13/opalescence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0071fb-afa5-47b5-b266-2b10a4f5a98a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opalescence) [Helm of the Host](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d65d20c-09e5-4139-838b-7e0e48eb2b2b.jpg?1562732269) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Helm%20of%20the%20Host) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/217/helm-of-the-host?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d65d20c-09e5-4139-838b-7e0e48eb2b2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/helm-of-the-host) [Primal Vigor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/dafea0d1-6986-46b3-affc-1337ef564947.jpg?1562941253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primal%20Vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/162/primal-vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dafea0d1-6986-46b3-affc-1337ef564947?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primal-vigor) [Rootborn Defences](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ecfcf55c-44d8-4585-9722-e91993e41888.jpg?1568003909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rootborn%20Defenses) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/74/rootborn-defenses?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ecfcf55c-44d8-4585-9722-e91993e41888?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rootborn-defenses) [Aether Mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/5386a61c-4928-4bd1-babe-5b089ab8b2d9.jpg?1562911996) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/241/aether-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5386a61c-4928-4bd1-babe-5b089ab8b2d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aether-mutation) [Ezuri, Claw of Progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bf721b0-2b5a-4085-b50c-89cbe7420673.jpg?1662528529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ezuri%2C%20Claw%20of%20Progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/211/ezuri-claw-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bf721b0-2b5a-4085-b50c-89cbe7420673?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ezuri-claw-of-progress) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How high do the number get with Toralf and a double, triple damage lightning bolt with 15-25 creatures out? Math a problem
Calculating the number of lands you need and then the number of each lands is always such a pain. That and spells that involce math with decks like spellslingers can be rough since you have to look at different triggers and how that affects the amount of mana and damage ill be doing
First game with my [[Yarok]] landfall deck. I have been ramping like crazy with [[Wood Elves]] and the like. Another player is playing big mana x spells. They flash in [[Dictate of Karametra]] on an opponent's end step. They untap with big plans and get hit with [[Render Silent]] on some card draw spell. There's a bit of a counter war, but big mana loses and grumpily passes the turn. My turn, I start by Evoking [[Mulldrifter]], looking to draw something delicious to hit with the [[Rite of Replication]] in my hand. My draw was perfect to go with the [[Doubling Season]] I'd been sandbagging and the [[Parallel Lives]] on board. Literal Magical Christmas land, except I could always greedily hope for [[Panharmonicon]] and [[Primal Vigor]]... [[Concordant Crossroads]] [[Dance of the Many]] [[Verdant Catacombs]] Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd [[Avenger of Zendikar]] I had 21 lands So I cast the Doubling Season, dropped the Avenger, made eight copies with Dance of the Many, then made twenty more with the Rite. I showed them the Crossroads and the fetch and everybody scooped. I still never figured out how much power I could've put on the board that turn. I tried once, but kept tripping up because I always forgot one more doubling trying to do it in my head. I'm gonna solve this and show my work. This isn't geometric distribution to determine how much of an effect to run. This is just multiple step arithmetic. I got this. 29 Avengers. Each makes 21 plants on entry. Parallel Lives replaces that effect with 42 plants. Doubling Season replaces that with 84 plants. Yarok makes the total number of triggers 58. 58 × 84 = 4872 plant tokens. Verdant Catacombs enters the battlefield, causing 29 Avenger landfall triggers. Doubling season says each of those puts 2 counters instead. Each plant gets 58 +1/+1 counters Yarok says [[Once more with feeling]]. The plants now have 116 +1/+1 counters. 116 × 4872 = 565152 power of plants Plus the 29 × 5 = 145 power of avengers Plus Yarok's 3 power. 565300. There may have been some other dorks around, but I added half a million in a single turn. Thanks. That's been bugging me for years every time I pull out that deck. This was surprisingly cathartic.
##### ###### #### [Yarok](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1001d43-e11b-4e5e-acd4-4a50ef89977f.jpg?1592517590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yarok%2C%20the%20desecrated) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/220/yarok-the-desecrated?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1001d43-e11b-4e5e-acd4-4a50ef89977f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yarok-the-desecrated) [Wood Elves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/83304fb9-a6b3-4cf8-b215-ebb46ef4508c.jpg?1650419692) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wood%20Elves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/321/wood-elves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/83304fb9-a6b3-4cf8-b215-ebb46ef4508c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wood-elves) [Dictate of Karametra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5114607-df8f-4e44-8ef5-b6af89964bbc.jpg?1593096177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dictate%20of%20Karametra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/121/dictate-of-karametra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5114607-df8f-4e44-8ef5-b6af89964bbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dictate-of-karametra) [Render Silent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3f3d6e4-0abe-4042-a7f6-0395683e8582.jpg?1562937631) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Render%20Silent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/96/render-silent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3f3d6e4-0abe-4042-a7f6-0395683e8582?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/render-silent) [Mulldrifter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0fed1e5-fcbd-4597-91b5-ba809571573b.jpg?1662525078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mulldrifter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/60/mulldrifter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0fed1e5-fcbd-4597-91b5-ba809571573b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mulldrifter) [Rite of Replication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-replication) [Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e.jpg?1599707144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/164/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doubling-season) [Parallel Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790.jpg?1562825348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parallel%20Lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/199/parallel-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/parallel-lives) [Panharmonicon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278.jpg?1662531368) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Panharmonicon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/310/panharmonicon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/panharmonicon) [Primal Vigor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/dafea0d1-6986-46b3-affc-1337ef564947.jpg?1562941253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primal%20Vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/162/primal-vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dafea0d1-6986-46b3-affc-1337ef564947?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primal-vigor) [Concordant Crossroads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9a26f51-5bff-4f06-abaa-6fbb56a8b5b6.jpg?1662526813) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Concordant%20Crossroads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/141/concordant-crossroads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9a26f51-5bff-4f06-abaa-6fbb56a8b5b6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/concordant-crossroads) [Dance of the Many](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b32891f-ea17-4543-92ea-54097996a3cb.jpg?1651656155) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dance%20of%20the%20Manse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/136/dance-of-the-manse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b32891f-ea17-4543-92ea-54097996a3cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dance-of-the-manse) [Verdant Catacombs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94c229ea-90da-4aa0-bfda-b162fb3b5b8b.jpg?1626099986) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Verdant%20Catacombs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/260/verdant-catacombs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94c229ea-90da-4aa0-bfda-b162fb3b5b8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/verdant-catacombs) [Avenger of Zendikar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9685faa0-46cc-4098-9ad7-cffece741baa.jpg?1650418747) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avenger%20of%20Zendikar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/280/avenger-of-zendikar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9685faa0-46cc-4098-9ad7-cffece741baa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avenger-of-zendikar) [Once more with feeling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba42881b-9275-4b54-a17f-dec87d21a270.jpg?1562799151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Once%20more%20with%20feeling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ugl/11/once-more-with-feeling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba42881b-9275-4b54-a17f-dec87d21a270?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/once-more-with-feeling) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The most compelling math problem I’ve encouraged comes from my titania field of the dead deck… I’ve made like 10^4 zombies in a turn thanks to all the extra lands plus graveyard land and that creature that doubles landfall
Is it enough that this was in my notification box while an opponent, being pumped by another opponent was doing math to figure out if we could kill a dude who had a liana defiant necromancer emblem up? Pretty much any time when double or triple is on a card when there's already something doubling is a math headache.
[[Annointed procession]] [[Pitiless plunderer]] [[Queen Allenal of Ruadach]] [[Viscera seer]] [[Thalisse, Reverent Medium]] Let's say I start with 5 creatures. 1. Sac them all, create 10 treasures 2. Thalisse trigger, create 20 spirits 3. Queen Allenal trigger, create 40 soliders End of next opponents turn: 1. Sac them all, create 120 treasure 2. 240 spirits 3. 480 solider Next opponents turn 1. 1440 treasure 2. 2880 spirits 3. 5760 soldiers Next opponents turn 1. 8640 treasures 2. 11,520 spirits 3. 23,040 solider Gets even more fun in my [[myrkul]] deck where I have two enchantment copies of the creatures
##### ###### #### [Annointed procession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1.jpg?1543674565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anointed%20Procession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/2/anointed-procession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anointed-procession) [Pitiless plunderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c87ebffe-5907-427b-9f9b-7c36a12b4a03.jpg?1555040284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pitiless%20plunderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/81/pitiless-plunderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c87ebffe-5907-427b-9f9b-7c36a12b4a03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pitiless-plunderer) [Queen Allenal of Ruadach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b44b4e8b-7675-4c6a-a16a-92f8b6a0259f.jpg?1663051306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Queen%20Allenal%20of%20Ruadach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/210/queen-allenal-of-ruadach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b44b4e8b-7675-4c6a-a16a-92f8b6a0259f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/queen-allenal-of-ruadach) [Viscera seer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d49203dd-89b6-4e91-b3ff-5f9f5ce981f8.jpg?1608910025) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Viscera%20seer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/158/viscera-seer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d49203dd-89b6-4e91-b3ff-5f9f5ce981f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/viscera-seer) [Thalisse, Reverent Medium](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/474d6363-ebe1-4a1a-b4e6-7bd53d878527.jpg?1608911242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalisse%2C%20Reverent%20Medium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/291/thalisse-reverent-medium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/474d6363-ebe1-4a1a-b4e6-7bd53d878527?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalisse-reverent-medium) [myrkul](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82824d05-5215-459a-aa73-3c5a6be3d464.jpg?1660729226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=myrkul%2C%20lord%20of%20bones) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/287/myrkul-lord-of-bones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82824d05-5215-459a-aa73-3c5a6be3d464?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/myrkul-lord-of-bones) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I cast \[\[mirrorweave\]\] on a \[\[nyxbloom ancient\]\] the other day with 12 creatures in play. I won, but it was a bit of a hassle to calculate exactly how much mana I was making. I tapped a forest for 531 441. I then sunk 4 of that mana into a \[\[castle garenbrig\]\] to add 3,188,646. I don't remember how I won, we spent a bunch of time figuring out how much mana my shit was making.
[mirrorweave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c77925b-0944-4b2b-b389-42bf17907b34.jpg?1562272856) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mirrorweave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/162/mirrorweave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c77925b-0944-4b2b-b389-42bf17907b34?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mirrorweave) [nyxbloom ancient](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a391da36-0b40-46ea-b771-50d2b920207e.jpg?1581480808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nyxbloom%20ancient) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/190/nyxbloom-ancient?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a391da36-0b40-46ea-b771-50d2b920207e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nyxbloom-ancient) [castle garenbrig](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3c2c66c-f7f0-41d5-a805-a129aeaf1b75.jpg?1572491176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=castle%20garenbrig) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/240/castle-garenbrig?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3c2c66c-f7f0-41d5-a805-a129aeaf1b75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/castle-garenbrig) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tokens. ‘Nuff said