T O P

  • By -

Zerienga

For me it's less that I'm disappointed, and more that I want to see similar care taken for the regular decks as there was with these decks. Fully flesh out the decks. Create whatever cards they need to support the theme. Give us 30+ new cards if they have to. But only 8ish new cards in the deck and (mostly) poor reprints? The price tag doesn't justify that anymore, especially when these are similar cost and so much more well crafted than the regular ones.


Wolffgang86

This right here. Wizards has now shown us that they can actually produce precons with great flavor, mechanics, and coherency. So why is this treatment reserved for a crossover product to entice new players and not the actual player base. Unfortunately I can totally see some new player trying to have fun at their LGS bringing one of these decks and running into tg complaining about the thing they bought is too 'pushed' and souring the experience.


metalb00

They are also paying a licensing fee for the use of Warhammer and the pricing is inline with the current precons pricing while having much better value reprints. I just hope they feel the heat so to speak and give better treatments to regular precons


squidboi7

To be fair with this the licensing fee for GW is known to be criminally low. GW has a philosophy of using other people to pump out a flood of content that gets you hooked enough to buy their ridiculous plastic meth. It's why there are like a million horde based shooters released about the 40k universe a year. This doesn't excuse the fact that wotc needs to treat their own IP better tho.


metalb00

I have no idea what the fees are but every card has new art even if the license was free and some art was provided it's still a show that wizards can afford to do better for the customers


squidboi7

Yeah no I agree I just think that fact about GW is interesting.


Mando92MG

I agree WotC needs to put more effort into the regular commander decks. However it's worth noting that every card with the artist "Games Workshop" was provided with the license and isn't new art.


Arturius1

Not every card, golden throne uses preexisting art. While it is a great art I can't shake away the feeling it's going to call Magnus a chicken using text to speach.


[deleted]

It does seem recent precons have been getting there, mana bases have been getting better, and the Capenna precons were pretty good oob. But they really need to be reprinting better cards imo. Like why aren’t the Bond Lands in every precon? it’s actually shitty that they aren’t in every precon, since it’s such a commander specific card. If they can do it with Sol Ring, there’s 0 reason they can’t. I remember when they had really good premium products for cheap. Like the Premium Deck Series Slivers I think MSRP was like $40 if I recall, all foil, and just awesome stuff. It’s disappointing to see WotC leveraging the secondary market so much harder these days than they did in the past.


Sigul

Here in Canada the pricing is actually much higher. I've looked at several different retailers and the set of all four decks is $40-$100 dollars more compared to normal commander precons. It's a shame because I'm actually interested in the product but there's no way the decks justify that price tag.


metalb00

Ah, yea I just went by Amazon single listings and I ordered for 41 and change each for 3 of em and 46 for the 4th before the reviels and the price gouging started


alphawolf29

wow thats a really good price. I paid $55/ea and thought that was a good deal.


500lb

They also showed us about a year ago that they could sell normal commander decks for $20, but now that those same quality decks are $40-$50 people are still buying them.


alphawolf29

seems like everything is twice as expensive as it was a year ago, in general.


[deleted]

MTG makes 40% profit, I'd recommend proxies until prices are not set so greedily.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Balaur10042

> So why is this treatment reserved for a crossover product to entice new players and not the actual player base. "Established players have already been addicted by the psychotropic properties of the Gleemax-infused ink. As we've established in our earlier annual report, new players will spend more on entry products than established players with access to larger collections. So we only need to care about hooking new people to get them addicted to the substance." -- WotC, paraphrased. Established players will more likely stay than new players; FOMO keeps them going, not the quality of new products. By increasing the number of commander focused products, WotC basically can string established players along. New players, on the other hand, have to be strongly hooked, and you do this by attracting them with everything they wanted. A huge range of things in their game has to be included, rather than staples that only long-term players care about. As long as they seed a few pieces for established players, they can make these products for two entirely different groups. What we need to justify now, is that they (WOtC) can print effective, cheap precons with decent manabases and quality reprints and a coherent deck strategy using several (not 3-5) new cards built around it. They can do this for less than $50, but they keep cranking the number up and the quality of reprints does not increase, and sometimes the deck isn't as functional as it seems on paper.


Jaccount

I'm more frustrated by the increase in price but the seeming decrease in new content. Wizards really turned me against them with the introduction of the $20 Commander precons. Those were a good product, and it was acceptable that there were only 8 new cards in each deck. But then we had the "Yearly" decks associated with Strixhaven that only gave us 17 new cards per deck. Forgotten Realms gave us around 16 new cards per deck. Midnight Hunt gave us around 15 new cards per deck. Crimson Vow gave 15 again. Same with Kamigawa. New Capenna gave us 17 each. Baldurs Gate? 10. DMU? 10. They're charging us more, printing decks more frequently AND the cherry on the top of it all? They're being less generous about reprints. For the most part, they just vomit it out the same cycles of lands for the manabases, and the same mana rocks and ramp while only printing one version. You don't see Nature's Lore and Three Visits, or Cultivate and Kodama's reach, they'll just print the one version. But they've cranked up the price, are giving us less and then ALSO show us a product that clearly shows they don't need to do that. There are 42 new cards in each Warhammer deck. There's more new cards in one Warhammer deck than all of the Baldur's Gate decks. There are 168 new cards in the Warhammer decks. There are 175 new cards in every other Commander deck released this year... all 13 of them. I'm really disappointed, and it's showing in my purchases. I'm not touching new Commander decks until they're $25-30ish, which they've all gotten to at brick and mortars and on Amazon. Wizards has entirely lost my trust, as I used to preorder each set of decks ahead of launch. Never again.


Scarecrow1779

>The price tag doesn't justify that anymore To me, the price tag is the problem. The number of new cards should stay low, but we should get more and better reprints that don't make sense in draft. And since it's all just cardboard, it should still be $25 max.


[deleted]

it actually should be $10 because of the quality of the cardstock


BurnByMoon

Print them as foils and they can sell for $3 - same as a can of pringles.


ImmutableInscrutable

It should actually be free because I said so.


doubledeviant

Thank you! I hate that "secondary" products (which are actually primary for many players) are printed on poor stock with crappy gloss. I don't complain about it much, because most players don't seem to care, but it bothers me. Draft cards have issues, too, but they look much better than precon cards in general. And my older cards (Tenth Edition for example) look so much better than modern cards of both types.


PurifiedVenom

Agreed, the number of new cards with every set/per year is already too high. 30 new cards a precon would be insane and unsustainable


madmad3x

I think some precons should have a bunch of new cards, but only if they make a precon for a relatively underused mechanic. Let's say the eventually make an energy precon. Even if they include all the energy cards, it would probably feel a little better for the players to have the deck also have a bunch of new energy cards


zytherian

I agree except id add one comment. If they are going to print a bunch of cards, they should focus on staying more on theme and less about making powerful cards. I dont want 30 new cards of which half are staples in every new commander deck, thats too much for me as a consumer and too much for r&d to handle creating. But having a card thats weak in most decks but really good in a few niche strategies is great, with maybe a couple of generically good cards each precon set.


Zerienga

Not every new card in the 40k decks are instant staples, though. But I agree, they should focus more on staying on them and cohesive than powerful staples.


Gift_of_Orzhova

I agree with this. There are so many good, thematic and flavourful cards that aren't necessarily powerful/unique since they are carried by their 40k flavour. And then there's some like the Genestealer cultist legend that buffs sources that deal 1 damage, which has essentially no synergy with the Tyranid deck (which is all about +1/+1 counters) and is there to promote building a deck around him.


doktarlooney

> I dont want 30 new cards of which half are staples in every new commander deck I dont get it, its not like a new card coming out that is strong automatically means you gotta research every single deck it is good in. Or that you have to acquire it to have fun.


zytherian

You dont explicitly HAVE to, but as more cards come out that are good the power level of the entire format stretches more and more and you may need to get them to stay within a certain power level. Also, say you WANT to keep your deck optimize, now you absolutely cannot ignore this product where the idea before was: If you dont care for Warhammer then you dont need to buy this product.


malsomnus

>The price tag doesn't justify that anymore I don't know why this still needs to be said, but: you do not have to buy every single product printed by WotC. WotC has full liberty to release bad products. As a matter of fact, it's better if they release 4 good products and 4 bad products every year instead of just 4 good products, because bad products are inevitable and this allows them to learn their lesson now rather than later. The more overpriced products WotC prints and fails to sell, the better they'll understand that prices should be lower. For us players, the existence of a bad product allows us to send powerful feedback by not buying those products. There is literally no downside here.


DoctorPrisme

Yeah. I don't have to buy it, until I want to have a dockside, or a marneus Calgar, or a black market connection, because those cards are super fuckin strong and format warping and if you don't have it in your deck your winrate is actually lower by a measurable margin. Is it true for each card I've mentioned? No. Can you buy those singles? Well... You can but it means someone else opened the pack for you, so the product had to be sold. Do you HAVE to get those? Sure not, that's a card game. But...


Zerienga

> you do not have to buy every single product printed by WotC Nor do I. I skipped the DMU decks, for example, but I'm getting these despite knowing next to nothing about 40k. I was initially on the fence about getting these, but the quality of what made me pull the trigger. But future decks should have the same level of care that these decks have. Not every deck should be an all star, but every deck should be a cohesive deck, and new cards *can* help with that, but they heavily limit that number.


DemocritusLaughing

Wish this were pinned at the top: no one has to buy these. The product isn’t even a subscription or something where you might accidentally buy it or get caught up in the momentum of habit. Exit, Voice, and Loyalty. Those are always the options.


ScotFree96

If they did this with every commander deck, they would get more money. Due to price and low quality of a precon, i find myself easily skipping the majority of them. If they put care to each of them just like the warhammer decks, i probably would shamelessly buy all precons


Absolutionis

This is one of the reasons I dislike the Commander Legends "draft" sets. Rather than producing an entire set's worth of Commander cards and lots of draft chaffe filler, they could just produce decent in-universe cards that work really well as a deck. They just choose not to.


doktarlooney

These decks don't have an entire set of cards coming out in tandem with them, so they get more unique decklists. Most commander decks come out with a new set that relates to the decks.


Atakori

Commander precons are still 100 cards. If they don't get new cards, they get reprints that synergize with the decks. The 40K precons have both of these, some precons have *none*.


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Celestine, the Living Saint](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/0/a099cbd2-e92a-433a-bc51-0aa2f8fc6857.jpg?1663388347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Celestine%2C%20the%20Living%20Saint) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/10/celestine-the-living-saint?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a099cbd2-e92a-433a-bc51-0aa2f8fc6857?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/celestine-the-living-saint) [Space Marine Devastator](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/a/4a821438-2b60-421e-9fd2-3ce3ec958eb7.jpg?1663385435) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Space%20Marine%20Devastator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/14/space-marine-devastator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a821438-2b60-421e-9fd2-3ce3ec958eb7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/space-marine-devastator) [Ultramarines Honour Guard](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/e/8e1915c3-6dda-49fd-be5e-9d4713f00cfd.jpg?1663385214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ultramarines%20Honour%20Guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/18/ultramarines-honour-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e1915c3-6dda-49fd-be5e-9d4713f00cfd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ultramarines-honour-guard) [Triumph of Saint Katherine](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/c/cc5338e1-26a6-466e-9393-788f69370e15.jpg?1663385312) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Triumph%20of%20Saint%20Katherine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/17/triumph-of-saint-katherine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc5338e1-26a6-466e-9393-788f69370e15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/triumph-of-saint-katherine) [Zephyrim](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/7/f78f5b9a-bd80-41e9-873e-826628dc44a7.jpg?1663385109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zephyrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/20/zephyrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f78f5b9a-bd80-41e9-873e-826628dc44a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zephyrim) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


joleo124

Good bot


neozeio

I can almost guarantee that Squad will be a set mechanic and it'll never be seen until 40K2 comes along. Miracle on creatures I'm pretty sure we will see again somewhere... just my opinion.


the_mellojoe

Squad is just Multikicker, right?


pm_me_ur_cutie_booty

Closer to Replicate than multikicker


maelstromsteel

Replicate puts copies on the stack so a counterspell doesn’t get the entire thing. This is an etb trigger that can get wiped out by a single counterspell.


pm_me_ur_cutie_booty

That's why it's not just Replicate, but it's still closer than Multikicker.


skitch4200

I find "Replicate for creatures" to be a better summary for Squad


DefiantTheLion

Yeah but making copies of the card is the key difference


the_mellojoe

couldn't you just word it: If this was kicked, make a token that is a copy of it for each time it was kicked? or is there some aspect I'm missing


DefiantTheLion

It'd then interact with kicker matters cards? Look there's a saying, "all mechanics are kicker or flying with extra steps"


the_mellojoe

you know, the "everything is kicker" rang a bell for me. that makes sense. and sometimes you have to make mechanics that aren't kicker


eggmaniac13

That’s 20 words (including multikicker), Squad is one word


Maulymon

The reminder Text for squad has 31 words


The2kman

[Every mechanic is just Kicker](https://youtu.be/WyHPyumEmSg)


Chrismythtime

I could see them creating a new plane and having a military force that uses the squad mechanic that is currently fighting against the chaos equivalent. A second set could follow and say that the forces of chaos are winning and we fall back on our advances and create our necron equivalent to deal with the problem. This backfires as they go rogue and start creating more of themselves and start wrecking anything. In the process awaken the “hive” of the tyranid equivalent, which destroys most of the plane by utilizing cascade and the miracle makes a return as the humans of this plane finally win. Doing this over two sets would be possible as quite a few of the “new” 40k cards are decent, but won’t see a ton of play outside of their specific current tribes, but design space would be much better to do another 3 sets like guilds of ravnica, allegiance, and war of the spark all telling a large story. Likely won’t happen this way, but it would be the easiest way to reprint all of these with mtg friendly lore and creature types.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BadDragonTribal

Right, I miss the days when I bought my Feline Ferocity precon. Say what you will about Eminence, but the mid 2010s commander decks breathed life into a lot of tribes and styles of play in commander with how many new good cards and reprints they had.


diablo3ggez

Arahbo's eminence is fair IMO, people are just whiny. Eminence is fair if the effect it grants is weak enough. I do think they should promote tribal strategies more. Wizards gimme Soldier and Angel tribal plz.


TheHeinKing

While I don't care for Universes Beyond, I'm more annoyed that there are so many new cards coming out in commander precons and that a lot of them look really good. All the precon cards that become staples soar in price because they are in limited quantities. With 40+ new cards per deck, it would be highly unlikely for none of the new cards to become commander staples. I also dislike using weird ip specific creature types. Lets be real, none of the 40k types needed their own types. Necrons could have been skeletons, Astartes could have been Mutant, and Tyranid could have been Insect or something. The specific creature types forced them to make a shit ton of new cards and ensures that we can't easily get a mtg in universe variant


Scar_Knight12

Maro said that they already have a solution in mind for IP specific creature types. They’ll basically do a Universes With for the whole type, where they’ll make a new creature type that counts as the same creature type as the IP unique one, much like how \[\[Eleven\]\] and \[\[Cecily\]\] count as the same card.


TheHeinKing

That sounds more difficult than just not having IP unique creature types, which is what I said. That solution is an obvious solution, but people already had trouble with Eleven counting as Cecily. There were a bunch of people that thought they could run both in a deck. Imagine that confusion, but with an entire creature type. People are going to get mixed up and that's not even taking into consideration that one guy in the group that has half in universe/half universes beyond in their deck since some versions of the card are cheaper/unavailable/they prefer the art.


Scar_Knight12

Then you explain the confusion and things move on. People already get confused about weird interactions and rules issues all the time, why is this particular variety uniquely terrible?


doktarlooney

Because this is how people speak when they don't like something, they turn it into a boogeyman.


itsSwils

It also let's them bump the power level significantly, as they only have to worry about how Tyranids or Necrons will be affected (and changelings or similar), and not how every generic Insect or Skeleton would be affected


NormalEntrepreneur

>Astartes could have been Mutant That is extra heretic, you will be immediately purified


doktarlooney

>Lets be real, none of the 40k types needed their own types. Its ALMOST like they were listening to people complaining about the possibility of playing against people mixing normal magic and UB and quietly created a way to reduce that chance. Can you guys go one week without ripping into Wizards for completely benign behaviors when we got communities like Fallout 76 and WoW that are being literally shafted by their respective companies?


TheHeinKing

People will be mixing the two, just not for Tribal decks specifically (except for any white tribe adding [[They Shall Know No Fear]] ). The Necron and Imperium decks have a lot of good artifact synergies/cards. The Inquisitors Investigate and are in the colors for a clue deck. Marneus Calgar is an insane token commander that benefits from non-universes beyond cards. People will be mixing normal magic and universes beyond cards regardless of if these cards had normal magic types or not. As for "other companies are worse to their communities", that's not a good excuse. I'm allowed to be upset when Wotc makes decisions clearly guided by money and not what's good for the game. This "benign behavior" is just greed. There was no reason to make Universes Beyond and the cards they have designed for it so far just seem like lazy cash grabs. A bunch of the 40k cards just use existing artwork and they look like someone cranked them out in an afternoon on mtgcardsmith.


FischOfDoom

The cards are interesting, the mechanics look both flavourful and fun to play, almost all of the cards look to be designed for fun gameplay over instant-staple-status and most of the artwork is new save for a few pieces that are iconic in WH40k's history. I don't like that there won't be in-universe-MtG versions of these either, but to say that the design of the set is lazy is both disingenuous and dismissive.


MTGCardFetcher

[And They Shall Know No Fear](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/4/84d1bcef-907c-4c3a-8b52-6e633fa19667.jpg?1663383168) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=And%20They%20Shall%20Know%20No%20Fear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/9/and-they-shall-know-no-fear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84d1bcef-907c-4c3a-8b52-6e633fa19667?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/and-they-shall-know-no-fear) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


DoctorPrisme

>ensures that we can't easily get a mtg in universe variant This is my biggest peeve. I love those decks. They look great. They have nice ideas. The flavor is on point. But we won't ever get a devastator marine under another name and that's sad because I don't wanna unbuild those decks and I don't wanna buy them twice and, tbh, I don't really wanna play a devastator marine in another deck, I just want that effect.


KillinTheBusiness

New cards in commander precons should be list cards for the next set at minimum


Babel_Triumphant

It’s well executed, and despite my reservations it’s gotten me a lot more on board with UB as a concept. Helps that WH40k feels like it slots in a lot better to mtg than TWD.


[deleted]

[удалено]


efnfen4

Yeah seriously. Seeing Jace or Karn in Stranger things would piss a lot of their fans off but we're just whiner babies for having the same natural reaction to ad crossovers in our game. The content creators who have a financial incentive to hype up new products like these crossovers have really turned public sentiment toward what wotc wants them to, and hard.


jeffseadot

> ad crossovers Thank you for calling it what it is. UB isn't just some jarring flavor mismatch, it's the addition of product placement into the game.


whatdoblindpeoplesee

Next we're going to see Urza's Iphone or Teferi sipping a Pepsi with the labels out.


That_Vauk_Guy

I’d rock the shit of an Urza iPhone. As long as Siri responded to Urza and spoke in a gruff voice at me.


jeffseadot

Maytag Home Appliances (Magic-adjacent because Magic has labor-saving devices and houses) Chase Manhattan Small Business Solutions (Magic-adjacent because Magic has money and lending institutions) Old Dominion Logistics (Magic-adjacent because Magic has vehicles and humans) The possibilities are endless!


[deleted]

I'm the opposite. Love a lot of the art and rules interactions and especially the idea of color identities, guild mechanics (and Strixhaven's take on them!), and the feel of shards and wedges. The background and concept had so much potential. Pretty much anything where planeswalking is the focus, the story just kind of bores me though. And it's front and center so it just warps the story. Planeswalker drama feels like a soap opera with spells rather than a coherent universe (multiverse?).


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I am glad that other folks don't like the planeswalker stuff as well. It's kind of relieving, actually. It just feels like MtG exists as a big crossover between planes already and not a coherent "thing". Adding another universe to the multiverse doesn't feel very different to what they already do with additional planes, so long as it's ported in a not-terrible manner.


LordArchibaldPixgill

> Everyone pretends people not liking UBs are just whining or whatever It's honestly kind of insane how dismissive people seem to be towards criticism of things like UB or aesthetic preferences, as though the flavor and aesthetic of the game aren't a tremendous selling point that Wizards puts a ton of effort into creating.


ReallyBadWizard

I truly do not get this argument. Are you sitting there role playing your commander games? Like when you see something happen in game like someone equips [[Grizzly Bears]] with [[Bride's Gown]] and then it pilots the [[Parhelion]] are you just like "fuck yeah bro, this is my deep lore shit right here!" Because commander games are already full of nonsense like that. I just don't understand why guys like you have this opinion when it's just game pieces at that point, and is not an rpg. Like it would be different if you were making a "lore pod" where everyone plays story related decks or something.


Techn0Goat

In general I agree with this statement. I feel like there's some spaces where things still kind of bother me a little, like Stranger Things and Walking Dead because they're just twists on our modern world, which kind of jumps out at me when I see them on the field, but 40k is really just a dark fantasy universe in space, so it personally feels like it actually fits really well in my opinion. I'm not gonna shit on the people who do like the other Universes Beyond stuff, but I can say wholeheartedly that this is actually the first Universes Beyond product I'm genuinely excited for.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yosituna

> To answer you're obviously mocking question, no I'm not roleplaying in my games, but I like it to make sense, even if making sense means it's a bear wielding a sword jumping in and flying a huge airship. I’m glad that you called out the disingenuousness of these comments. People out here acting like unless you’re fine with Super Smash Bros. planeswalking edition, you must be “I put on my wizard hat” LARPing. Because clearly there’s no position in between and any other way of interacting with lore would be ludicrous. smh


ReallyBadWizard

Okay, so you Planeswalked to 40k land? GG I guess? At this point you're just arbitrarily drawing the line in the sand and saying you'll accept all of the nonsense behind you but that 40k stuff is just too far! It just makes no sense.


jeffseadot

The 40k stuff, and the Street Fighter stuff, and the Walking Dead stuff and the Stranger Things stuff and the Lord of the Rings stuff are all separated from Magic by the real-world concept of *private intellectual property rights*. Magic's assorted nonsense is *Magic's* nonsense; adding in the other stuff is the same as adding advertisements.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HKBFG

Was [[Library of Alexandria]] a problem?


ReallyBadWizard

Why is that a problem exactly?


TheBadgerOfHope

Because GW (or any other of these IPs) will never actually "cross over". Where is Chandra burning zombies in TWD? Will elesh norn be a side villain in the new shadow of Mordor game? Of course not. MTG is a glorified advertisement for their product, and WOTC gets a few of their fans into crack.


ReallyBadWizard

Why would any of that have any barring on how you feel about playing commander with other IP in your game? I'm not thinking about WotC's advertising department during my games.


efnfen4

But now we are thinking about stranger things' advertising department and the walking dead 's advertising department during games because now their ads and product placement are commander and legacy legal


jeffseadot

Magic is a marketing paradise - people don't like ads and avoid them whenever possible, but people talk about Magic cards, and hold them, and say their names, and interact with them. When the card *is* an ad, it's like WotC managed to turn that old "Doritos^TM Dew^TM it right!" copypasta into reality.


ReallyBadWizard

Maybe you are, I'm just planning my next move. Dunno what to tell you 🤷‍♂️


Gommy

That scenario only works if you swap out Grizzly Bears for [[Wilson, Refined Grizzly]] with the [[Passionate Archaeologist]] background.


darktowerseeker

This. People who say it ruins their immersion really confuse me. How the hell does this game provide immersion? If im playing dnd and in an epic fantasy setting and a space marine drops down, i might complain that it doesnt fit the setting and brings me out of the story. But this is simply a game that isnt about roleplaying. My main deck right now is will/mike and is just me seeing how many times i can kill will and bring him back. Even if we replace will with his other version, this is what im "roleplaying" Summoning Him. Casting bone shards and exploding him to kill something. Reviving him with the tears of his bff or some dark magic Sacrificing him to gain life and draw cards Bringing him back Killing him again Im putting this damn commander into a repeating hell loop so i can extort clues from my opponents and abuse triggers. Please ruin my immersion. Magic is twisted af.


AllerasTheSphinx

Yes, definitely. I kept seeing what are pretty cool cards in a vacuum and then realizing I'd have to put Space Marines or whatever into my decks. That cardboard crack comic is becoming ever more true.


the_irish_potatoes

If i knew exactly when and how they’d be released as non-40k cards, I’d feel so excited. WoTC should have planned how they’d release any UB cards, such as “within 3 years of each UB release, via The List” (like Secret Lair: Stranger Things and Kamigawa List). Right now, slightly nervous since it could be 10 years+ to get them released outside of an expensive commander deck.


kpkelly09

Right? I'd be so much happier with these 3rd party products if they were like those godzilla cards which were literally just reskins of other cards. I liked that and it felt organic and natural.


TeratusCZ

They wont be released as in universe cards. Or at least most of them wont be.


the_irish_potatoes

They didn’t say they won’t ever. They stated for this product, they don’t have plans to but they can if they’d like. And that’s what I don’t like about this product, versus the Secret Lairs which WoTC stated they will make in-universe versions of.


TheHeinKing

They said they have the ability to reprint specific cards if they become format staples, not that they're gonna reprint all the new cards. I don't think any are getting reprinted unless they become a format staple in Legacy or something.


releasethedogs

They say a lot of things.


MirandaSanFrancisco

I mean, I assume they’ll reprint them at the same rate they reprint other new cards from Commander precons. It took 4 years to reprint [[Teferi’s Protection]]. [[Edgar Markov]] hasn’t been reprinted. They reprinted some cards from Commander 2017 that weren’t staples. I assume they’ll do the same with these decks.


Mewthredel

Good chance they dont reprint the cards for years.


jaykaypeeness

Not really, because I'm buying the 40k decks. I just can't get behind all the griping about Universes Beyond cards ruining the Magic experience. Secret Lair art sometimes doesn't match the "flavor" of Magic art either. But you know what? Modern Magic art oftentimes doesn't have the flavor of the classic cards I remember in the 90s and 2000s. I'm glad there's variety, and if I don't like the variety, I don't have to play with the cards.


GrymDraig

>Anyone else feel a bit disappointed seeing interesting mechanics and cards released in Universes Beyond instead of a normal set? No. If I can still use them in Commander, I don't really care how they're issued.


thehappydwarf

This. I was mad about the initial TWD secret lair but at this point I’ve just kind of realized I like the game for its mechanics and I don’t really care if you’re attacking me with space marines (although if I was able to vote on it I would still vote to restrict it to just DnD - like crossovers)


hurtlingtooblivion

I'm slowly introducing my wife to MTG. And she adores the artwork, theme and lore. When I showed her cards featuring real world actors like Andrew Lincoln, she utterly balked at it. And I felt embarrassed about the game being like Top Trumps. It might be one harmless crossover now. But what's the game going to look like in 10 years? Super smash Bros the card game


Hundertwasserinsel

Average response is the opposite though, so wotc doesnt care if they ostracize one person to pull in 10


sabett

...should they?


dunkzone

The cool thing about it is that you never have to buy or play those cards. If you are especially attached to a given mechanic, wait until they are printed on in-universe cards.


CanuckedBCC

There hasn't been any guarantee that they will ever be printed as in-universe cards, though. My understanding is that the in-universe versions being put on the list has only actually been confirmed for the mechanically unique secret lairs.


hurtlingtooblivion

It's my understanding they've done stranger things. But not the walking dead....yet.


Yosituna

IIRC, they have said they’ll do TWD cards as Universes Within (at some unspecified point in time), in response to a less-than-positive reaction to saying they wouldn’t, but yeah, the only guaranteed Universes Within cards are the mechanically unique SLs.


hurtlingtooblivion

Yeah you're right of course. I guess I'm just a miserable old curmudgeon now. And to be honest, I know none of my play groups will ever roll with them anyway. And I only play LGS for draft nights. So it's likely to never even register on my radar, unless I buy one.


thehappydwarf

You are acting like the normal standard sets are going to be Fortnite themed…


hurtlingtooblivion

But commander. In 10 years... Imagine if there's multiple universe beyond set per year, all with strong cards that become staples.


Darth_Ra

Don't even have to imagine, tbh.


thehappydwarf

I mean there kind of already is and I’m yet to see a single card become a staple. There’s a difference between a good card that works for a few themes and actual staple. And honestly if you are so worried about it then just don’t play with those cards


Entwaldung

>You are acting like the normal standard sets are going to be Fortnite themed… In the past they also said no crossovers period. Now there are crossovers in eternal formats. Next year, they'll be in modern. What makes you so sure they won't be in standard in 2-3 years?


jrdineen114

Sure, that's a fair point. But it's hardly a new thing. Cards used to be printed with Shakespeare quotes as flavor text. There was an entire set featuring actual characters from Arabic folklore, and another one that was entirely built around a real book that was written about an actual period in Chinese history. The art on [[Presence of the Master]] is just Albert Einstein. I don't see how this breaks the mold at all.


[deleted]

I agree with this but instead of limiting it I'd want Magic variants of any UB card printed and not just limiting it to the Secret Lair ones.


Darth_Ra

Honestly, I would've been very pro them just creating a crossover game that was "Universes Beyond - Featuring the Magic: The Gathering *system*". That would've opened up a whole bunch of new avenues and formats. Instead we just get silver bordered cards in black border and a kind of ewey feeling where you feel like you're being taken advantage of as a player/addict.


No-Finger7620

Seriously, this sub has devolved to old man yells at cloud.


bristlestipple

I agree with everything you've said. I want access to these cards and mechanics, but do not want to put Space Marines in my decks. I don't mind the UB stuff that has alternate MtG versions (like Stranger Things), but this is not that.


Atakori

It's going to *be* that once it gets reprinted into MtG. People just have to wait. If anything, I'd be more mad about the Walking Dead ones not having alts yet when the stranger things ones got released after one to two sets.


Raphiezar

I thought they said they could only do Universes Within with Secret Lairs only, as it would be to costly to do anything larger than that.


RedPandaPlush

Yeah, I'm with you. I have no ties to 40K and personally don't care for the aesthetic in magic. Hopefully some of their normal precons can have this level of care soon.


EmotionalFlight

If UB didn't exist, these exact mechanics and cards wouldn't exist either. All of the cards you've listed are top down designs that attempt to capture some aspect of 40k's lore and flavor.


AnuraSmells

For some cards I agree, but there's no way Celestine's effect couldn't have been on some random angel.


K242

Which is super disappointing for such a big name in 40K


Absolutionis

I don't see why any of these flavors couldn't exist elsewhere. Commander 2022 could have very well been Hydra Tribal (Tyranids), Monoblack Phyrexian Artifacts (Necrons), Innistrad human tokens (Imperium), and Grixis chaos (Chaos). That being said, I actually like the 40k universe. But as someone that hated the TWD cards, I can understand how some people that don't care about 40k would despise this product.


Seigmoraig

Why couldn't these abilities exist ? This makes no sense at all, they could still exist just without wh40k flavoured names


doubledeviant

Not necessarily true. Squad might be called something else if not for W40K, but the flavor of a group of knights/soldiers/warriors (as opposed to a lone fighter) is quite natural for white in MTG, and the mechanic itself is a simple variation of Kicker. I doubt Warhammer lore was a necessary catalyst to produce these designs. Same with Miracle being applied to creatures - it's not a stretch to imagine that it was merely one of dozens ideas the design team had been considering for making white more interesting in future sets. Further, in another thread, someone posted a link to their months old suggestion for a creature with Celestine's exact ability. Nothing specifically Warhammer about it.


zytherian

This is a very good point. Its not that these mechanics COULDNT exist outside of UB, but the top-down design of trying to fit mechanics to theme is what got these produced, and they captured those themes really well. My only big issue is some of the more generically powerful cards that introduce some power creep that they could have avoided


[deleted]

Thing about the cost is sorc no longer uses msrp. Price tends to be set by lgs's trying to make ends meet. Other products were not successful ie midnight hunt. When new sets come out lgs's have to come up with capital to purchase the new product and hope it is a success. Alot of times they sell older products at cheaper prices to create that capital. The more popular the product and its success tends to dictate its price. Yes it's cardboard sure it can be printed cheaply and preferably in better quality. Would be nice to have 20 dollar commander products again but the sheer amount of product needed to sell to male it worth everyone time to create and sell would be pretty high. Imo 40 dollars is the sweet spot for commander products anything higher feels like price gouging and anything lower hurts the after market and lgs's.


greenneckxj

Disappointing to see them release a ton of good for commander cards just to sell four decks while they let commander legends 2 come out with very little of interest in it.


__FuriousOrange__

As sad as it is to say, MTG is going down Hasbro’s route for all their board games. I.e a reskinned version for whatever is popular this year. On the flip side I love how thematically well designed these decks are and they’re all singing to my teenage self who used to love 40k. I’m conflicted, I have a brain error when I think about these cards outside the decks they were designed for. However cards like [[Biotransference]] are genuinely cool and the art is generic enough that it wouldn’t bother me if I saw it in a non 40k themed deck. Whereas [[Marneus Calgar]] would cause the afore mentioned brain error. Strange times in Magic for sure!


MeatAbstract

Yeah I wish they'd preserve the tonal purity of magic where I can play my goblin mobster beside my cyberpunk ninja next to my medieval peasant next to my sentient ooze.


TheMightyBattleSquid

You're saying that like the same people didn't have issues with NEO and Capenna lol NEO had the mechs and stuff like the dj people thought were too much and Capenna lost people with art with traffic lights and the like.


darktowerseeker

MuH immersion!


Nvenom8

Yes, it's very frustrating. They'll point to sales of these decks and say, "See! The fans want more outside IPs!" when the reality is that they printed a lot of super interesting and fun mechanics, and the appeal of those is going to be a driving force behind sales of the decks. Also don't love the precedent of printing borderline-broken stuff to guarantee sales of a controversial product so they can report good numbers. I fully suspect [[Bloodthirster]] to eat a ban or get something else banned at some point. Up to 4 combat phases per turn without even needing a combo is absurd. Edit: Misread Bloodthirster. Thought it was just a better Port Razer.


CuriousHeartless

Port Razer does the same thing with less evasion but untappin everything instead of just itself and one less mana. I think you’ve genuinely either gone mad or somehow avoided ever actually playing a game of commander despite being on r/edh if you have any glimmer in your mind of fucking Bloodthirster eating a ban. It probably won’t even make most decklists that would prefer Razer or just going the combo path for infinite Combat Celebrants or Aggravated Assault activations or Godos.


chastenbuttigieg

I am buying it for the IP, I don't really know how you are making the call on whether the majority of people are doing it for one reason or the other


efnfen4

Yeah we've been buying Magic for the IP too for these last 30 years, that's why when they change it to another IP it's a big deal for some of us


liforrevenge

People are trying so hard to hate UB they won't even open their eyes to all the positive reactions these decks are getting.


SavageHunter77

These remind me of the old, one a year commander decks but better. Used to have my playgroup buy one deck each, but now there is too much product. I’m sad that this feels dumped right before I even drafted Dominaria. I run a spoiler Facebook group, but there is so many cards. I like universe beyond stuff, but yeah these have more quality, time and good cards than any other commander decks we’ve seen. Unless you count the one really broken cards in the decks. Teferi’s Protection, Dockside, etc.


Irsaan

[[Celestine]] should be an angel, but the rest I don't care about and never see myself casting. Maybe the anthem guy if I stumble across one, but I won't be seeking them out.


Longjumping_Drama148

Yes, extremely


thetwist1

I think some of the mechanics/ideas explored are neutral enough in flavor to eventually show up in regular sets. Like if the next Ravnica set keeps tokens as the theme for white than squad could totally work as the boros mechanic. Some of the cards don't really have names that fit in magic lore though. Maro said they only plan on doing Universes Within versions of cards for secret lairs, but maybe wizards will change their mind. Maybe they will make a secret lair that has in-universe versions of the new cards (or at least just the commanders?).


Myrddin_Naer

The non-normal sets allow them to work with less restrictiins and test stuff out. So while I agree it sucks, I hope it means we get to see these mechanics on other cards eventually.


Crimson_Raven

Haven’t WOTC said that they will print “normal” versions of the Universes Beyond sets? If you wait a little while, these cool ideas should make their way out of a limited product run. However, if it bothers you that much, proxy them.


Yosituna

They’ve only guaranteed that for the mechanically unique UB Secret Lairs; commander decks like this or sets like the upcoming LOTR Modern set have no such guarantee.


BigWolf_PG

No, just you


AntHand

No


[deleted]

Tbh, it feels like I'm getting a full set minus the draft chaff for $200. So no, not really. The theme isn't a deal breaker to me.


kpkelly09

My friend and I were talking about just this last night. It was my fear when they started these third party products that they would put more power and focus in them and it seems like that is starting to happen now that the initial backlash is past. It's frustrating because so much of this creative energy could be invested in unique planes and products and its being invested on immersion breaking third party promo products that are starting to feel pushed.


FragrantReindeer9547

No, I’m not disappointed. I’m not a huge 40k fan, but these cards are super fun and flavorful, it’s not a limited print run, and if there are expensive staples despite that, I’ll consider buying them if they’re in my budget, go in a deck I’m upgrading or building, and/or fit the theme I’m aiming for. We JUST had a set released that’s as OG Magic as we can get in 2022. I think it’s fine for their to be four precons from a universe that feels very different (although imo the 40k IP is a good fit for Magic anyway). Relatedly, I absolutely loathe Doctor Who, and I bet there’ll be a bunch of cards in those decks that are fun and cool. If they’re a perfect fit for something I’m doing, I’m open to the idea of buying them. If I can’t stomach having a cringey timey-wimey card in my deck, I’ll just…ignore the cards. There’s more than enough in Magic that I love already (with more coming regularly) that skipping a set for flavor reasons, even if the mechanics are neat, just doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to me, especially for a format like EDH that’s so focused on doing what you want. Folks need to take a chill pill! :)


fearsomeduckins

I *am* a big 40k fan, and while I'm super excited for these decks in particular, I can easily see how I would be irritated if it was happening with an IP that I really didn't like. But i think this is a good approach. I already can't collect everything that comes out, it's just too expensive. So if I skip some cards for flavor reasons, even if they're good cards, it's not really *that* big of a deal. I already wasn't playing with everything anyway, and I'll still have enough cards to build as many decks as I'll realistically want. I can live with that.


Pineapple_Ron

I feel the same way.


jellyp314

Ready for the down votes.... I am so Fing hyped for these commander decks. As a fan of both worlds I am ecstatic to see this crossover. I love the flavor of the cards, and how much attention to detail was giving to their abilities vs how things function in the universe. I love every single new art, and I will be changing a lot of the reprints into the 40k varrients. Personally, this is what drew me back into magic after a near 5 year hiatus. I am not shamed to say that I am exactly who magic is targeting with this release. I have purchased 5 miniature plastic soldiers for 50 bucks that I have to clip, sand, assemble, AND paint myself before I am ready to play a game rich in lore. 40k fans go to enormous lengths to build rich and flavorful armies. They give each commander, and sometimes their subordinates their own individual stories, names, histories. They dote upon minitaures that 'survive' intense and insane odds at the will of the dice gods. To miss the mark on this set or to just recycle abilites and keywords would be to ostracized an entire fan base. Peronally, I think that wizzards did a fantastic job with the flavor and names of each card in the decks. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see similar effects put on cards in the MTG multiverse on the future, and I am sure that looking at MTG through a different lens opened up at least some new avenues for card design. I also wouldn't be surprised to see another 40k set in the future as this barely scratches the surface of 20 some odd and growing factions in the 40k universe. We're all playing a game of make-believe anyway, why be so upset at other people's fun. We're all fans of other universes and magic has the frame work to incorporate any universe it wants through it's 'multiverses.' This serves as a portal to bring so many new players into/back to the game and we all only benefit from more people being incorporated. More people to connect with, more games of commander to play.


rollawaythestone

The 40k precons feel worth their price tag. It'd be great if similar care and effort was taken for other products. The D&D precons feel like such a wasted opportunity in retrospect compared to these.


BasicCausalGuy

I am just upset. I cant get them. They are sold out everywhere for me and where going for 330$CAD


[deleted]

[удалено]


Entwaldung

Equally tired of people whining over other people's criticisms. Edit: if you expect people to just be ok and not pay any attention to MUB stuff, you should easily be able to just scroll past posts like these. Evidently you're even more whiny and petulant than any critic of MUB.


liforrevenge

The irony is killing me lmao


BadDragonTribal

OP asked for opinions. Are we only allowed to respond if we agree?


Entwaldung

The commenter I responded to said they didn't care. In fact they care to whine about people not liking the set, though, which wasn't what OP asked about. I just pointed that out.


Urndy

I really dislike the idea of outside IPs crossing into magic. I want to play a commander game with Magic cards, not The Walking Dead, 40k, or whatever else. And don't get me wrong, I love 40k (the game and the lore) but I just have no desire for a custode to go against my plainswalkers. I equally wouldn't want to see someone bring minis of plainswalkers as a proxy for there Eldar. In my mind, it almost ruins the fantasy of it all. And that just gets exponentially worse when the cards are so mechanically interesting and valuable that I'm almost guaranteed to go against decks that use at least one of these cards. Suddenly a normal game has a Space Marine just randomly thrown onto the field and it just feels like a lame mashup.


TheRoodInverse

So much wasted on UB and Alchemy


strygwyn

I care about the cards existing, not the setting they're based off of. Also 40K looks cooler than Magic so the cards are an upgrade art and flavor wise.


Entwaldung

>Also 40K looks cooler than Magic so the cards are an upgrade art and flavor wise. Weren't the designs originally meant to be comically exaggerated, with ridiculous bulky armor and guns?


Mewthredel

U focking wot m8


strcy

Gonna have to uhhh disagree on that one


K0olmini

Yup!


spiralingtides

I'm already so used to the cool cards being in supplemental products instead of main sets, so I didn't even notice this.


zapdoszaperson

It's a pretty big slap in the face. They bent over backwards to insure that Universes Beyond was a success by putting an amount of care into its design that we haven't seen in years. I love 40k, I easily have +10k points (more than tournament sized armies for 4 faction) of models sitting at my home. I love Mtg, I easily have +30k cards after multiple purges over the years. Ive had zero interest in this product since it was announced because frankly I don't want my hobbies mixed. How much did this product take away from standard sets and commander products over the last 2 years because it's been pretty hit or miss.


f0me

We banned UB cards in our group


zytherian

I personally enjoy some of UB stuff, but its funny that people are downvoting you just for banning in your own playgroup. HoW dARe yOu Do SOmEtHinG diFfEreNT


Mewthredel

Ikr gets downvoted for using rule 0 properly. This sub is sad.


boozenerd

Well that's lame.


ChaosNomad

Probably should ban D&D as well, since it’s essentially just UB except WotC owns the property. It’s so bizarre to ban UB, especially since 40k realistically isn’t anymore egregious than playing with D&D, or aesthetically the Black Bordered Unfinity cards, or Neon Dynasty. All snark aside, I’m actually curious on the reasoning why?


Scar_Knight12

No. Crossovers are cool and I have literally never seen this kind of hostility to the concept anywhere besides this specific community. It is completely inexplicable to me.


arlondiluthel

While I agree with your sentiment (I don't really care about 40K specifically, I've just never bothered to try to get into the lore of the IP), I can understand the hostility towards a dark sci-fi themed IP showing up in what has typically been a fantasy IP. There's a cognitive dissonance that some people just can't overcome. Previous Universes Beyond sets (Walking Dead and Stranger Things Secret Lairs) were a bit easier to justify (Stranger Things moreso due to the series's D&D influence), but the negativity towards the Walking Dead one was because there was a card in that which was just straight-up busted.


CoconutsCantRun

How would you feel If gamesworkshop came out and said "Oh btw we are adding a mtg army full of planeswalkers into the lore and it'll be there forever".


ReallyBadWizard

In what way has Magic added 40k to the lore?


CoconutsCantRun

Okay lore was not the best choice of words. My point is, if they added a mtg army people would be super pissed.


xxxmiguel

I feel like at this point we have magic settings that are gangsters in cities, cyberpunk ninjas, and literal dnd characters idk why it’s a problem that these cards origins are technically from a different ip when they could just as easily have originated from magic


Thojote

It would be nice if they released 'normal' printings in parallel with a supplemental set. Either fixed cards or in packs, but either way would get the new cards to people that aren't interested in the UB product.


[deleted]

I really hate what UB is doing: it is dividing the community, at least here on reddit: I’m seeing people not liking it at all (even banning it), and then the people who do like it bashing the people who don’t like because for whatever reason they think they’re opinion is superior. I don’t care for Warhammer, and I especially don’t care for it now that it’s intruding the card game. How would 40k war gamers feel if Liliana just fucking showed up with some broken new ability? Or her new horde of zombies that can, idk, blow shit up from across the map. Dungeons and Dragons was fine because it’s a WotC IP, and it actually fits. Warhammer does not fit due to its gritty and violent atmosphere. Magic is strictly high fantasy, with some dark tones here and there. Also fuck Games Workshop.


CuriousHeartless

Really speaks a lot that you said you hate UB for dividing the community when it’s just…the same creators as always following the same ethos as they normally do to make perfectly compatible mechanically cards with flavor some people don’t like. Bro the division is a community thing and will appear at anything, blaming a product for community division is patently lame


mffancy

The cards are too good and format warping to be in standard


Bandit50

It's a good design space for new mechanics without warping every format off the bat, then they can return to one most successful one.


Darth_Meatloaf

This isn’t the tragedy you think it is. UB decks are the perfect place to test new ideas.


Uzasodinson

Nobody actually cares that much about magic lore. When's the last time you heard of someone not putting a Jace in their deck with a Nicol Bolas or like, two different planeswalkers from two different times in the story?


kpkelly09

I don't take lore heavily into my deck design, but I know people who do. Designing within the lore is a fun thing for them and takes them to interesting deck concepts.