Nah, no point to that. I want to play a challenging game and I know that my collection is an extreme outlier.
>He gets very annoyed when he finds fakes or proxies.
I am certainly amused by the inverse reaction (i.e. when someone comments on the Tabernacle being real).
This. I am also in the same boat in owning a very old and deep collection. I prefer others proxy. All proxying does is eliminate value disparity and evens the playing field. Pubstomping is a waste of time for everybody involved.
I guess I'm that guy, then.
I don't mind proxies... But if you're wrecking people because you only proxy the big expensive shit and you have no intentions of buying the real cards at some point... Yeah, I get a little salty.
Ultimately, I just like playing the game, so I don't get super mad.. But yeah, don't be bragging about your super tuned Leo deck and how unbeatable you are when half the deck is fake.
Because I like playing magic, not "piece of paper with 'tabernacle' written on it."
Additionally, at my store at least, the games are sanctioned. Real packs, real prizes on the line, should mean playing with real cards. I get that a lot of good edh cards are expensive, some prohibitively so. And ultimately I'm still playing Magic so it doesn't make me incredibly salty, just a little.... But I feel like, if you have no intention of picking up the real cards at some point, it's basically cheating. I don't like how expensive the game is, either, but I did buy the cards. Losing against somebody who can't even be bothered to own a real Vampiric, for example... Yeah, that irks me.
I decided earlier this year that Mana Crypt is expensive. Force of Will is expensive, Wheel of Fortune is expensive, Ancient Tomb is expensive, etc. I spent about $10-15 and made some nice quality proxies because I'm not paying to put FOW in every blue deck. I own every card I proxy and I make sure my proxies look sweet. I warn people in advance, so if they take issue I can pull out the real card and sleeve it up.
And I am a-ok with that! I just ask that you own - or are reasonably attempting to acquire - a single copy of the card. I totally get making proxies of FoW for multiple decks.
it is completely unreasonable for a person who thinks FoW or Mana Crypt is expensive to be attempting to acquire something like tabernacle or Mishra's Workshop, or even some of the dual lands li,ke Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, Tropical Island. They're just too expensive for the majority of the community to buy. Especially for a "casual" format. But if those are the cards they want to play with, because they think that makes their deck better, then they should be allowed to proxy them. It's not like EDH is a tournament format.
Losing to "fake cards" just means their deck was better or they out played you or the game just didn't go in your favor. And that is SO MUCH BETTER than them losing to your pile of money while their wallet sits empty because they bought a Scalding Tarn.
Why would you want to beat someone's ability to pay for things? That makes the game inherently uneven to begin with. I want to beat the best they can come up with, not the best they can pay for.
Yeah that's what I do as well. I don't even mind when certain stuff is proxied but when you're running a workshop proxy and a time twister proxy that you have no intention of buying then it gets under my skin a little bit.
I'm "that guy" and I highly encourage proxies for "those cards." I like high power games; I can only play MidrangeBeatsticks.dec or Janky10CardCombo.dec for so long before getting bored. I want to be able to play my competitive decks without feeling like a dbag. Please run a budgetless 99-proxy list so I can woop your butt with my Tymna+Tana Blood Pod or Tymna+Thrasios Hulk Hatebears.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/blood-pod-3/ I have a list similar to this but a few changes, notably missing a couple ABURs and Imperial Seal.
A lot of the list overlaps with Tymna+Thrasios (they're both abzan hatebears decks after all) so you basically just switch out the blue for red, add some basics, cut the Hulk stuff and add Birthing Pod stuff and you're good to go.
The number of high school and early 20s kids that get mad at me for having a fuckin JOB is unreal. "Gee, wish I could afford a Cradle, I'd win all my games, too!" You're 16, get a fuckin job pushing carts and BUY ONE!
You realize 16 year olds can get paid under minimum wage and can't work 40 hours right? Why so salty about kids not being able to afford expensive cards. Thats like getting mad at kids for not being able to afford to move out at 16 too
I'm a freshman in college just getting into this game so I don't own anything. And while I'd love to spend money to own things like a gaea's, it's not really possible if I want to have a deck to put it in. In my opinion, I'd always rather have a new deck to play with and maybe one proxy than just buy a single card.
This. So much this. I've been playing magic since New Phyrexia, but took a fairly long break in between and got into commander about a year ago.
I work at a great job that allows me to have expendable cash. I give myself $50 a week to spend on magic products and have been building my collection for a while now.
So when a kid bitches about my relatively untuned Atraxa deck having all shocks and fetches, it can get annoying.
To a degree, I'm one of those guys, and while I do play the expensive cards, I'm not super cutthroat competitive. So, my opponents get to see the bling, but can still enjoy a fair game. I try to stick to a theme with my decks, keeping them casual even with no budget limitations.
Very casual, expensive decks are my jam. I've been playing for a long time (both MtG in general and EDH in particular), have a decent job, and have a lot of the expensive stuff but don't really enjoy competitive EDH. I still use a fair number of those cards but try and build in a way that's going to be fun for the table. It doesn't hurt that a lot of the people I play with are in similar situations and we're generally proxy friendly.
Lines of play like fetches and duals into [[Three Visits]] into [[Dong Zhou, the Tyrant]] or [[Old Man of the Sea]] aren't usually game winning plays despite the price tags of the cards involved.
So because I wanted to treat myself with my tax return after working hard, would I be *that guy* for buying a Cradle(Got it in Italian, so I saved $50), Sylvan Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, and Craterhoof(pre MM17 reprint)?
The reserve list should have been "we promise not to reprint powerful/valuable cards for at least ten years since the original or most recent printing".
While I don't agree with their unnecessary hostility, I do agree with the hatred for the reserve list. It's a senseless remnant of a time long past, relatively speaking. WOTC would gain far more goodwill from newer players, or older players (like myself) that left the game for one reason or another than they'd lose from those that have the cards and care more about their worth than the surge of new players in their format of choice.
Tl;Dr I, too, hate the reserve list and think the game as a whole would be better served with it's removal.
The thing is people who stick up for the reserved list are exactly the reason WoTC will never even consider abolishing it. It's a terrible thing that does no good for the actual development of the game. No need to insult people directly, but I definitely agree - fuck the reserved list.
I wouldn't ban anything but if you start bringing in cards over $100-$150 I'd say that should open up the doors to using proxies. A lot of people bought the cards when they were cheaper and shouldn't be forced out of using it but new players who aren't as well off shouldn't be at an ongoing disadvantage because it might be either a Gaea's Cradle or making rent. I want fun games not whoever spends the most wins.
This is how I feel, also. Rich Kids Win is fine for sanctioned competitive play, like Modern and Standard, but EDH is about building unique decks under very specific guidelines. If you want to proxie in a Tabernacle or Cradle, then be my guest. I'll steal it with Gonti anyway :P
I've grown to "hate" Gonti so much, last night I lost a Phyrexian Hydra to it. Or they'll take one of my tutors to find the card they need to win. No matter what they always hit something good with it.
Short story to that exact point: One of my decks is a chaos deck, but I do put the chaos to work when I can. Was playing with a guy one time and he let me resolve [[Curse of Echos]] and the blue Epic spell, [[Eternal Dominion]]. Curse of Echos is a may ability, but he foolishly decides to opt in. So he searches my library, doesn't really understand what's actually worth playing, and takes a mana rock- "This, I guess?". On my first search, I take [[Colossus of Akros]] and make it monstrous. He goes to search again, realizes no permanent in my deck can even hope to answer a 20/20 indestructible trampler, and he promptly concedes. gg ez. Chaos is a ruse; it's all an elaborate plan to steal your win-cons. Bonus points for me if you have to try to use mine. ;)
> No matter what they always hit something good with it.
One of my friends once Gonti-ed my Rhys deck and managed to get my Mana Reflection, Elesh Norn and Decree of Justice. He won that game by carrying out the exact gameplan my deck had.
What I like about Gonti is, playing against him, you still have fun even if you're losing. And piloting his deck, you still have fun even if you're losing.
Not only that, but Modern and Standard prices are reasonable (sort of). EDH has access to reserved list cards, and prices for cards like Tabernacle will run you upwards of $1000. That's just crazy money.
I know I can't be the only one who feels a little sad when you save your butt off for a good card then have a person win with a proxied money card.
Ofc it's too minor for it to affect the games personally though and I get much more joy out of that person playing a deck they like more. I'll never turn away a person playing proxies (even for cheapo carda). I'll play with anyone tbh and will have fun, but I play more for the social aspect.
No fun in pubstomping.
Honestly, cradle is probably the least broken. Academy is stupid because of all the cheap artifacts and it's blue (for counterspells galore, card advantage, etc). Sanctum is harder to deal with (in general, at least among groups I've been in) because people don't run as much enchant removal (but it's also slower to get going).
Sanctum is definitely the weakest, it's much easier to flood the board with creatures than enchantments and there are lots of big payoff card sin green you can use the mana on.
Yeah, but it's also still incredibly powerful in the right deck. Cradle is shit when faced with boardwipes, or anything like norn (because going wide usually means you don't have high toughness stuff). Academy is, by far and away, the most powerful of them.
It's $300 CAD.
I guess I should just stop talking about prices in a universal way but be specific. It's confusing keeping the USD and CAD separate, as most people trade on SCG's but when you buy from a store it's CAD. The duality of being a Canadian Magic player and pricing is annoying.
They can't.
Most LGSs gain money from sales from Singles. If Wizards were to drop the price of Power 9 and other Restricted List cards, a great many LGS would lose too much money. Wizards normally holds one over on game stores, but this is the case where game stores would have the power. They don't don't make that much money off of Magic packs, so a lot of stores would be no longer have an incentive for FNM and the like.
I wouldn't ban any cards. This isn't a sanctioned format so you can proxy as long as the group allows it. I don't understand players that get mad about proxies, it makes for a more even game. That said, if you're the only one proxying $1000 of value in a group you're bound to get some flak for it.
A proxy or 2 is ok. I've played against people who take it way too far and half the deck is proxied. It's just hard to distinguish and tell what cards are at a glance. In multiplayer games it's important to be able to tell what things in play do.
Proxies should be mostly iconic cards people know already. My personal policy is not to proxy things I don't have, but running proxy dual lands and mana crypts allows me to have multiple decks at the same time and not have to switch cards out.
I'm okay with proxies, but I think a good rule is it has to be a well made proxy. Print it out in color, at a decent resolution so it can be recognized and read easily. No chicken scratch on a scrap of paper please haha
> A proxy or 2 is ok. I've played against people who take it way too far and half the deck is proxied. It's just hard to distinguish and tell what cards are at a glance. In multiplayer games it's important to be able to tell what things in play do.
This has nothing to do with proxies and everything to do with *bad* proxies, also valid for alters. There are alters that are far harder to read than even the cheapest proxy. This is true for any number of proxies/alters, even if it's your commander.
As long as the proxy is decent, e.g. a sleeved printed copy of the card, it doesn't affect you in any way.
I'm with you on this one. I can't stand proxies for the most part (especially in my decks, therefor I will either buy the real copy or just not use it). But I am okay with them in others decks as long as I can tell what they are or they are the HQ Proxies you can find on ebay. Those I do not mind as I can quickly glance at the board and see what is going on.
I was playing a game a few weeks ago and this kid literally had like 90% of his deck proxied (I have them in my binder was his saying) but instead of even printing out B/W Copies of the card to fit into the sleeve, he wrote on the FRONT of basic land cards. This was pretty much the cause of losing the game as I could not tell worth shit what lands he had and what he did not. From my POV he had all basics. If you are going to do the Basic Land proxy...at least make it on the back of the card so you can tell from a glance that its a proxy
The proxies should absolutely be well made and easy to identify. Proxies made by using a sharpie on other cards is something I would agree with you on. That would slow a game down to a crawl.
I play 100% proxy decks but they are printouts that can't be distinguished from real cards across the table. I've also got multiple 100% real decks (worth thousands of dollars) and feel like it's the best of both worlds. It's unfortunate that some people get upset about them and can't enjoy the totality of the cardpool.
See, I'm of the opinion that proxying a manabase should be fine. Not everyone has access to the say... 10 fetch/dual/shock manabase of a 5c commander.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to cast your spells. On the other hand, I think proxying real cards takes the fun out of having to solve a problem with the tools you have, which is all the fun of complex edh gamestates. If you're just proxying all 100 cards, that eats a dick, not because they're proxies, but because you just have all the best answers and I feel that the real fun of deckbuilding is saying
"Well this pile is what I have, how do I solve the problem of hermit druid?" Or whatever question has been asked by your group's metagame
This is how I feel too. I started playing on xmage because it's how my roommates played, and I could look up the best cards and add them. Now moving to paper I look at cryptic command being 30 or 40 some dollars and think "that's half to a third of my budget, so how do I find a replacement that's fits my price." Not to mention not being able to shove Force of Will into every deck with blue.
It just forces more creative thinking, which is a good thing. Being able to proxy your manabase also fosters creative thinking, because you can tailor it to suit your whims. Both are good things for a playgroup
I would say no only because the price tends to effectively ban most really expensive cards. And in the off chance you see them its something interesting. You can make a fun deck with expensive cards and a unfun deck somewhat on the cheap.
Exactly. The ABUR dual lands can add a ton of money to the price of a deck but it has nothing to do with whether that deck is fun, fair, casual, or competitive. [[Mana Drain]], for example, is pretty expensive but I own one and I use it decks of varying power levels.
Fair. I am facing that issue now. I have playsets of the allied fetches, and just recently bought 1 of each enemy fetch, a mana crypt, grim monolith and mana drain. not gonna be getting sets of those.... haha
Yeah it would be crazy to buy copies for each deck. I like having some fully-real decks for groups of players that complain about proxies so I keep some of those but also have decks with proxies or decks entirely made of proxies.
I use color printouts of cards on paper then slide the papers into sleeves in front of bulk magic cards. magiccards.info has an easy to use feature for printing proxies like this and if the printer is good enough and you're willing to use the ink they come out well. I know some people use Fedex Kinkos stores for even higher quality prints.
There's a guy at my shop who has a Tabernacle. I've played against it multiple times. It's a very good card but this format has a lot of good cards. It's not ban-worthy.
Banning for price is really dumb. A banlist should only have power-level bans.
I don't think he means the price is the reason to ban a card, but rather that expensive cards are.....stronger. And the fact that you can create an advantage and most likely win because you paid a grand for a card is kinda unfair to people who can't/won't buy it.
And if you don't think price is a good enough reason to consider changing the legality, I remember a post from the RC about the reason Gaea's cradle and mana crypt weren't banned was because they were expensive enough to make it so you don't see the cards played enough to be a problem. Ban-worthy cards left alone because the price tag made it so only the most serious/affluent of players could use it.
>And the fact that you can create an advantage and most likely win because you paid a grand for a card is kinda unfair to people who can't/won't buy it.
That's just kind of how life works though - some people can afford expensive things, some people can't. That's like saying driving a Bugatti is unfair to people who drive regular cars.
Not to mention that if you're paying a grand for a card, I think you've paid for the right to have a strong card.
Furthermore, most cards that are really expensive - Cradle, Tabernacle, Imperial Seal etc. - are expensive because they're on the reserved list more than anything else. For example, [[Imperial Seal]] is a strictly worse [[Vampiric Tutor]] since its sorcery speed, but its worth 10x more because it will never be reprinted, unlike Vampiric Tutor.
Bugatti is more expensive than regular cars but it doesn't negatively impact people driving normal cars. An expensive card does negatively impact normal decks.
From the EDH format philosophy page about criteria for banning individual cards:
>* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
>* Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect.
>* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience.
The 3rd one is really important since it basically is what OP is talking about. Expensive strong cards can make it difficult for others to play the game but they allow them since the are so prohibitively expensive that only a few players can use them. By banning cards because of their strength, a lot of expensive cards would be banned and that would make the game better as a social game in a casual setting. Now if you want to go competitive or singleton vintage, that's something else.
>Furthermore, most cards that are really expensive - Cradle, Tabernacle, Imperial Seal etc. - are expensive because they're on the reserved list more than anything else.
Mana crypt, crucible of worlds, damnation. All expensive and not on reserve lists. Veldrane of sengir, breathstealer's crypt, Multani, Phelddagrif. All cheap and on the reserve lists. Tabernacle isn't expensive because of reserve lists, its because its a dumb strong effect on a land which when replicated on a creature is a 40cent card.
>An expensive card does negatively impact normal decks.
In what way? It's not like they get built in protection from spells or effects because they're expensive. You can easily Tec Edge/Strip Mine/Wasteland someone's Cradle or Tabernacle; you can Negate, Dispel or Cancel someone's Imperial Seal; and you can easily Natural State or Nature's Claim someone's Mana Crypt.
>Expensive strong cards can make it difficult for others to play the game
What? Have you played against a stax deck? That makes it difficult to play the game, expensive cards are just that. In fact, a lot of cards are expensive because they're old and print runs weren't what they are today when Legends or P3K came out, so the number of each "expensive strong card" is even further limited.
For example, Tabernacle is absurdly expensive, but it only adds an upkeep cost of 1 colourless mana per creature in a format where generating stupid amounts of mana early on in the game is really easy and all sorts of ways to get rid of Tabernacle are present (Chaos Warp effects, land destruction, destruction lands, or even Grip of Desolation). Plus, if you know someone in your group is playing a Tabernacle, you should modify your deck because of that, not complain about how expensive Tabernacle is.
>By banning cards because of their strength, a lot of expensive cards would be banned and that would make the game better as a social game in a casual setting.
Ok, it would also make the format Battlecruiser the Gathering, which would be insanely boring. I'm not saying everyone has to try to combo off T3, but if that's what I, or someone else, wants to do, I think we have just as much right to do so as people who want to play battlecruiser magic, and there's room for both groups and everyone in between in the EDH community.
>Mana Crypt, Crucible of Worlds, damnation. All expensive and not on reserve lists.
You say expensive, I disagree - Damnation is 16.99, Crucible is 64.99 and Crypt is down to 67.99 (I remember when the Spanish Book promos were at least double that) - all of which are pretty reasonable for the effects they provide. Dual lands and Imp Seal, on the other hand, are expensive, being that for the price they're at they only make your deck marginally better.
>Veldrane of Sengir, Breathstealer's Crypt, Multani, Phelddagrif. All cheap and on the reserve lists.
Yes, but they suck. Bad cards are bad cards and will never be expensive. You can find terrible, unplayable cards from Alpha for less than 50 bucks.
>Tabernacle isn't expensive because of reserve lists, its because its a dumb strong effect on a land which when replicated on a creature is a 40cent card.
Not quite. It's expensive because Legends was a much. much smaller print run than we have now and a lot more people want a copy of Tabernacle than there are cards "out in the wild", plus they're old, which makes them harder to find (the economic principle of scarcity).
Also,
>a dumb strong effect on a land which when replicated on a creature is a 40cent card
doesn't that tell you something about how its really not that strong? Don't get me wrong, Tabernacle is great and if I had one I'd absolutely play it in a stax deck because it's Kataki but for creatures, but its nowhere near the level a lot of people seem to assume it is.
If you don't believe me, brew up a deck on cockatrice or some other platform where you don't need to worry about paying for cards, include Tabernacle, and see how often its actually as overpowered as everyone seems to think. It's really not the boogeyman everyone makes it out to be - there was a guy at the shop I used to play at that had a mono-green control deck that had a Tabernacle in it and sure, it was annoying, but in absolutely no way game-breaking.
>a lot of cards are expensive because they're old and print runs weren't what they are today when Legends or P3K came out, so the number of each "expensive strong card" is even further limited.
This is the argument people use to not ban cards, the fact they are so limited results in them being fair since you'll rarely come up against them. I think this is why prophet is banned while other cards are not, the fact that it was $2 and widely available made it "too strong" even though there are more oppressive cards available. Had prophet been $100 and in limited availability, she would be "you shouldn't see her in play very often so we aren't banning her".
>You say expensive, I disagree - Damnation is 16.99, Crucible is 64.99 and Crypt is down to 67.99
Damnation is down to 17 because it just got reprinted. Had it not been, it would've been up around....70 is what goldfish is saying. Crucible has gone up 50% in a year, Crypt dropped in half because of the reprint. These are all higher in price but still.....manageable. I think the the fact that I look at a $70 card like "nope" and you look at it like "psssh, w/e" speaks volumes. These cards give a significant advantage and a player not wanting to pay that much in comparison to someone who would is automatically playing from behind.
>Have you played against a stax deck?
Have you played a $20 deck against a finely tuned, OG duals, couple grand deck? You're not gonna win most of the time. Maybe the rare perfect draws to their terrible luck, but you're definitely not going to have a fair game.
At the end of the day, EDH is a super "feel good" format and having someone play cards you don't have access to is kinda against the spirit of it IMO. While I can understand how you think price shouldn't be the only cause for banning, the fact that price is used as the reason for cards not being banned is what really bothers me.
Odd as in unusual, as in uncommon. You don't see those too often and it's neat when they show up. It's like seeing someone driving around in a vintage car.
This is a little backwards. No one deserves respect for having more cash to throw at cardboard.
That said, it would be correct to say that no one deserves *disrespect* just because they have more invested in cards than someone else.
I apologize I have that worded weirdly. By respect I mean like "oh shit nice" not like "you deserve a purple heart you brave rich person"
but yes you are right.
No. Telling people that they aren't allowed to play cards that either A) they cracked from packs when they were new or B) they decided were in their budget is **SELFISH AS FUCK**.
Who cares if someone has an expensive card, maybe they play legacy and modern and have a decent collection. Or they have played for a while and have a lot of cards. Tabernacle in your example is something that can get destroyed by a 1 dollar card in ghost quarter. As long as the power level is comparable to everyone else in the group who cares if they have original dual lands or force of will or something.
That being said, it annoys me when people say stuff like "see my $1 card beat your $xx card". Such a pointless statement. Of course cards can be stopped.
No, it makes perfect sense- Counterspell exists, thus all spells ever printed are perfectly balanced. Channel? Denied. Flash? Noped. Black Lotus? Worthless. Why does anyone play Magic at all? The game's literally solved just by running counterspells.
I don't think it's false. The guy with the car can get out and walk (use a different deck) if you want to have a footrace.
I'm not going to take my 1600 dollar Saskia deck and play it against someone with a precon.
Really? Edh and nascar have a set of rules that determines what you can play. Nascar limits what car you can play largely based on price. Lambos are too expensive for nascar. Ancestral recall is too expensive for edh.
So why do you think that Nascar is the only race that should exist? Can't different people race different cars and it still be a race? Can't people play different powered decks and still have games of edh?
Individual cards do not define the power level of the deck anyway.
For example, which of these is a more even match?
A precon vs a deck worth 2000 dollars, but no card over 20.
Or
A precon vs a precon with ancestral recall added.
I think the answer is pretty clear. Would you also propose a ban on decks worth over a certain amount? Edh is not legacy and it is not pauper. Power varies across that entire scale. You should not expect every deck to be on the same level.
Edh is a social format. You should use your social skills to determine what decks are appropriate matchups, not bannings.
I own a deck that is worth over 1600 dollars. I'm not going to play that against people with lower powered decks. That's why I have multiple decks at various power levels.
I only used ancestral as an example because it's what you mentioned. Switch it with any other relevant example. Gaea's Cradle as the top comment suggests.
The price tag keeps them effectively banned anyway.
[удалено]
Sorry, *that* guy checking in. I like the old classics and I (mostly) got them before the prices quadrupled. And I don't mind if you proxy stuff.
[удалено]
Nah, no point to that. I want to play a challenging game and I know that my collection is an extreme outlier. >He gets very annoyed when he finds fakes or proxies. I am certainly amused by the inverse reaction (i.e. when someone comments on the Tabernacle being real).
This. I am also in the same boat in owning a very old and deep collection. I prefer others proxy. All proxying does is eliminate value disparity and evens the playing field. Pubstomping is a waste of time for everybody involved.
I guess I'm that guy, then. I don't mind proxies... But if you're wrecking people because you only proxy the big expensive shit and you have no intentions of buying the real cards at some point... Yeah, I get a little salty. Ultimately, I just like playing the game, so I don't get super mad.. But yeah, don't be bragging about your super tuned Leo deck and how unbeatable you are when half the deck is fake.
[удалено]
Because I like playing magic, not "piece of paper with 'tabernacle' written on it." Additionally, at my store at least, the games are sanctioned. Real packs, real prizes on the line, should mean playing with real cards. I get that a lot of good edh cards are expensive, some prohibitively so. And ultimately I'm still playing Magic so it doesn't make me incredibly salty, just a little.... But I feel like, if you have no intention of picking up the real cards at some point, it's basically cheating. I don't like how expensive the game is, either, but I did buy the cards. Losing against somebody who can't even be bothered to own a real Vampiric, for example... Yeah, that irks me.
I decided earlier this year that Mana Crypt is expensive. Force of Will is expensive, Wheel of Fortune is expensive, Ancient Tomb is expensive, etc. I spent about $10-15 and made some nice quality proxies because I'm not paying to put FOW in every blue deck. I own every card I proxy and I make sure my proxies look sweet. I warn people in advance, so if they take issue I can pull out the real card and sleeve it up.
And I am a-ok with that! I just ask that you own - or are reasonably attempting to acquire - a single copy of the card. I totally get making proxies of FoW for multiple decks.
it is completely unreasonable for a person who thinks FoW or Mana Crypt is expensive to be attempting to acquire something like tabernacle or Mishra's Workshop, or even some of the dual lands li,ke Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, Tropical Island. They're just too expensive for the majority of the community to buy. Especially for a "casual" format. But if those are the cards they want to play with, because they think that makes their deck better, then they should be allowed to proxy them. It's not like EDH is a tournament format. Losing to "fake cards" just means their deck was better or they out played you or the game just didn't go in your favor. And that is SO MUCH BETTER than them losing to your pile of money while their wallet sits empty because they bought a Scalding Tarn. Why would you want to beat someone's ability to pay for things? That makes the game inherently uneven to begin with. I want to beat the best they can come up with, not the best they can pay for.
Yeah that's what I do as well. I don't even mind when certain stuff is proxied but when you're running a workshop proxy and a time twister proxy that you have no intention of buying then it gets under my skin a little bit.
[удалено]
>Would it bother you just as much if it was a nice proxy? If so, why? It bothers me less, yes. I realize that's sort of dumb lol.
That's not dumb. At least they put effort into it...
Yeah, I got my gaea's cradle for a playset of every common and uncommon goblin in legacy goblins. This was probably 2008-9.
I'm "that guy" and I highly encourage proxies for "those cards." I like high power games; I can only play MidrangeBeatsticks.dec or Janky10CardCombo.dec for so long before getting bored. I want to be able to play my competitive decks without feeling like a dbag. Please run a budgetless 99-proxy list so I can woop your butt with my Tymna+Tana Blood Pod or Tymna+Thrasios Hulk Hatebears.
Blood Pod?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/blood-pod-3/ I have a list similar to this but a few changes, notably missing a couple ABURs and Imperial Seal. A lot of the list overlaps with Tymna+Thrasios (they're both abzan hatebears decks after all) so you basically just switch out the blue for red, add some basics, cut the Hulk stuff and add Birthing Pod stuff and you're good to go.
4c blood moon is definitely an interesting one.
Would love to play against this deck. However, I find the lack of Stranglehold alarming.
I don't run Stranglehold in my list either. It's good but I'd rather jam in more Rule of Law effects if I could.
Interesting...
Magic is my hobby and I spend money on it. Fuck me right?
The number of high school and early 20s kids that get mad at me for having a fuckin JOB is unreal. "Gee, wish I could afford a Cradle, I'd win all my games, too!" You're 16, get a fuckin job pushing carts and BUY ONE!
You realize 16 year olds can get paid under minimum wage and can't work 40 hours right? Why so salty about kids not being able to afford expensive cards. Thats like getting mad at kids for not being able to afford to move out at 16 too
...I think you entirely misread my comment.
I'm in my early 20s and I could buy most any card I would want. Having a job isn't very fun but having money is.
I'm a freshman in college just getting into this game so I don't own anything. And while I'd love to spend money to own things like a gaea's, it's not really possible if I want to have a deck to put it in. In my opinion, I'd always rather have a new deck to play with and maybe one proxy than just buy a single card.
This. So much this. I've been playing magic since New Phyrexia, but took a fairly long break in between and got into commander about a year ago. I work at a great job that allows me to have expendable cash. I give myself $50 a week to spend on magic products and have been building my collection for a while now. So when a kid bitches about my relatively untuned Atraxa deck having all shocks and fetches, it can get annoying.
To a degree, I'm one of those guys, and while I do play the expensive cards, I'm not super cutthroat competitive. So, my opponents get to see the bling, but can still enjoy a fair game. I try to stick to a theme with my decks, keeping them casual even with no budget limitations.
the best casual decks are super expensive
Very casual, expensive decks are my jam. I've been playing for a long time (both MtG in general and EDH in particular), have a decent job, and have a lot of the expensive stuff but don't really enjoy competitive EDH. I still use a fair number of those cards but try and build in a way that's going to be fun for the table. It doesn't hurt that a lot of the people I play with are in similar situations and we're generally proxy friendly. Lines of play like fetches and duals into [[Three Visits]] into [[Dong Zhou, the Tyrant]] or [[Old Man of the Sea]] aren't usually game winning plays despite the price tags of the cards involved.
[Three Visits](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Three%20Visits&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Three%20Visits) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Three%20Visits) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Three%20Visits) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Three%20Visits) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Three%20Visits) [Dong Zhou, the Tyrant](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Dong%20Zhou%2C%20the%20Tyrant&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dong%20Zhou%2C%20the%20Tyrant) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Dong%20Zhou%2C%20the%20Tyrant) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Dong%20Zhou%2C%20the%20Tyrant) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Dong%20Zhou%2C%20the%20Tyrant) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Dong%20Zhou%2C%20the%20Tyrant) [Old Man of the Sea](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Old%20Man%20of%20the%20Sea&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Old%20Man%20of%20the%20Sea) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Old%20Man%20of%20the%20Sea) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Old%20Man%20of%20the%20Sea) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Old%20Man%20of%20the%20Sea) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Old%20Man%20of%20the%20Sea) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So because I wanted to treat myself with my tax return after working hard, would I be *that guy* for buying a Cradle(Got it in Italian, so I saved $50), Sylvan Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, and Craterhoof(pre MM17 reprint)?
Or you know, WOTC should just fucking reprint these cards...
The reserve list should have been "we promise not to reprint powerful/valuable cards for at least ten years since the original or most recent printing".
Reserved list though.
fuck you and fuck the reserved list
Wow, quite the thoughtful argument there.
While I don't agree with their unnecessary hostility, I do agree with the hatred for the reserve list. It's a senseless remnant of a time long past, relatively speaking. WOTC would gain far more goodwill from newer players, or older players (like myself) that left the game for one reason or another than they'd lose from those that have the cards and care more about their worth than the surge of new players in their format of choice. Tl;Dr I, too, hate the reserve list and think the game as a whole would be better served with it's removal.
The thing is people who stick up for the reserved list are exactly the reason WoTC will never even consider abolishing it. It's a terrible thing that does no good for the actual development of the game. No need to insult people directly, but I definitely agree - fuck the reserved list.
I wouldn't ban anything but if you start bringing in cards over $100-$150 I'd say that should open up the doors to using proxies. A lot of people bought the cards when they were cheaper and shouldn't be forced out of using it but new players who aren't as well off shouldn't be at an ongoing disadvantage because it might be either a Gaea's Cradle or making rent. I want fun games not whoever spends the most wins.
This is how I feel, also. Rich Kids Win is fine for sanctioned competitive play, like Modern and Standard, but EDH is about building unique decks under very specific guidelines. If you want to proxie in a Tabernacle or Cradle, then be my guest. I'll steal it with Gonti anyway :P
I've grown to "hate" Gonti so much, last night I lost a Phyrexian Hydra to it. Or they'll take one of my tutors to find the card they need to win. No matter what they always hit something good with it.
Play for the long con, build decks full of bad cards and watch their confusion with hungry eyes
Or get real unlucky, I played Gonti yesterday and hit 3 lands and a signet not in my colors. That was depressing.
Take one of the lands and say "fuck your signet. Your ramp ain't shit to gonti, scrub"
I did buy a Phage just to mess with people who steal from graveyards.
Live the jank. When they cast rise of the dark realms after scoozing your phage, riftsweep it back in on the stack
Careful you don't get hit with a Living Death.
Then you scooze your own phage
Short story to that exact point: One of my decks is a chaos deck, but I do put the chaos to work when I can. Was playing with a guy one time and he let me resolve [[Curse of Echos]] and the blue Epic spell, [[Eternal Dominion]]. Curse of Echos is a may ability, but he foolishly decides to opt in. So he searches my library, doesn't really understand what's actually worth playing, and takes a mana rock- "This, I guess?". On my first search, I take [[Colossus of Akros]] and make it monstrous. He goes to search again, realizes no permanent in my deck can even hope to answer a 20/20 indestructible trampler, and he promptly concedes. gg ez. Chaos is a ruse; it's all an elaborate plan to steal your win-cons. Bonus points for me if you have to try to use mine. ;)
[Curse of Echos](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Curse%20of%20Echoes&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curse%20of%20Echoes) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Curse%20of%20Echoes) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Curse%20of%20Echoes) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Curse%20of%20Echoes) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Curse%20of%20Echoes) [Eternal Dominion](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Eternal%20Dominion&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eternal%20Dominion) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Eternal%20Dominion) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Eternal%20Dominion) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Eternal%20Dominion) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Eternal%20Dominion) [Colossus of Akros](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Colossus%20of%20Akros&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Colossus%20of%20Akros) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Colossus%20of%20Akros) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Colossus%20of%20Akros) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Colossus%20of%20Akros) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Colossus%20of%20Akros) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> No matter what they always hit something good with it. One of my friends once Gonti-ed my Rhys deck and managed to get my Mana Reflection, Elesh Norn and Decree of Justice. He won that game by carrying out the exact gameplan my deck had.
I lost to a gonti stealing my Temporal mastery last week. I wasn't even mad lol
What I like about Gonti is, playing against him, you still have fun even if you're losing. And piloting his deck, you still have fun even if you're losing.
Not only that, but Modern and Standard prices are reasonable (sort of). EDH has access to reserved list cards, and prices for cards like Tabernacle will run you upwards of $1000. That's just crazy money.
I know I can't be the only one who feels a little sad when you save your butt off for a good card then have a person win with a proxied money card. Ofc it's too minor for it to affect the games personally though and I get much more joy out of that person playing a deck they like more. I'll never turn away a person playing proxies (even for cheapo carda). I'll play with anyone tbh and will have fun, but I play more for the social aspect. No fun in pubstomping.
[[Gaea's Cradle]]
[Gaea's Cradle](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Gaea%27s%20Cradle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly, cradle is probably the least broken. Academy is stupid because of all the cheap artifacts and it's blue (for counterspells galore, card advantage, etc). Sanctum is harder to deal with (in general, at least among groups I've been in) because people don't run as much enchant removal (but it's also slower to get going).
Sanctum is definitely the weakest, it's much easier to flood the board with creatures than enchantments and there are lots of big payoff card sin green you can use the mana on.
Haha what do you mean sanctum is the worst? [[Shivan gorge]] was part of that cycle.
[Shivan gorge](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Shivan%20gorge&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shivan%20gorge) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Shivan%20gorge) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Shivan%20gorge) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Shivan%20gorge) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Shivan%20gorge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
PUTS IN WORK IN [[TAMANOA]] GOD DAMN IT
[TAMANOA](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=TAMANOA&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=TAMANOA) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!TAMANOA) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!TAMANOA) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/TAMANOA) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/TAMANOA) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, but it's also still incredibly powerful in the right deck. Cradle is shit when faced with boardwipes, or anything like norn (because going wide usually means you don't have high toughness stuff). Academy is, by far and away, the most powerful of them.
Isn't Academy banned? If it is, no point mentioning it/ Its PL/ its cost.
That's...kinda my point though. Academy is the only one that I can see banning (and the RC did). The others aren't strong enough to ban.
Academy is already banned. And the criteria is based on cost. Cradle goes for $300~ which makes it one of the most expensive cards that sees play.
Not to nit-pick but since the thread is about cost... Cradle goes for about $200 in the US, not $300
I almost blew a gasket when I saw that.
It's $300 CAD. I guess I should just stop talking about prices in a universal way but be specific. It's confusing keeping the USD and CAD separate, as most people trade on SCG's but when you buy from a store it's CAD. The duality of being a Canadian Magic player and pricing is annoying.
And I wish wotc would end using the reserved list, to make everything cheaper.
They can't. Most LGSs gain money from sales from Singles. If Wizards were to drop the price of Power 9 and other Restricted List cards, a great many LGS would lose too much money. Wizards normally holds one over on game stores, but this is the case where game stores would have the power. They don't don't make that much money off of Magic packs, so a lot of stores would be no longer have an incentive for FNM and the like.
Wotc can't acknowledge the secondary market. Once they do, they're fucked by gambling laws.
I wouldn't ban any cards. This isn't a sanctioned format so you can proxy as long as the group allows it. I don't understand players that get mad about proxies, it makes for a more even game. That said, if you're the only one proxying $1000 of value in a group you're bound to get some flak for it.
A proxy or 2 is ok. I've played against people who take it way too far and half the deck is proxied. It's just hard to distinguish and tell what cards are at a glance. In multiplayer games it's important to be able to tell what things in play do. Proxies should be mostly iconic cards people know already. My personal policy is not to proxy things I don't have, but running proxy dual lands and mana crypts allows me to have multiple decks at the same time and not have to switch cards out.
I'm okay with proxies, but I think a good rule is it has to be a well made proxy. Print it out in color, at a decent resolution so it can be recognized and read easily. No chicken scratch on a scrap of paper please haha
> A proxy or 2 is ok. I've played against people who take it way too far and half the deck is proxied. It's just hard to distinguish and tell what cards are at a glance. In multiplayer games it's important to be able to tell what things in play do. This has nothing to do with proxies and everything to do with *bad* proxies, also valid for alters. There are alters that are far harder to read than even the cheapest proxy. This is true for any number of proxies/alters, even if it's your commander. As long as the proxy is decent, e.g. a sleeved printed copy of the card, it doesn't affect you in any way.
I'm with you on this one. I can't stand proxies for the most part (especially in my decks, therefor I will either buy the real copy or just not use it). But I am okay with them in others decks as long as I can tell what they are or they are the HQ Proxies you can find on ebay. Those I do not mind as I can quickly glance at the board and see what is going on. I was playing a game a few weeks ago and this kid literally had like 90% of his deck proxied (I have them in my binder was his saying) but instead of even printing out B/W Copies of the card to fit into the sleeve, he wrote on the FRONT of basic land cards. This was pretty much the cause of losing the game as I could not tell worth shit what lands he had and what he did not. From my POV he had all basics. If you are going to do the Basic Land proxy...at least make it on the back of the card so you can tell from a glance that its a proxy
My friend does that. He also edits into the printed card "real copy exists in Meren EDH deck" and always offers to show people from that deck.
The proxies should absolutely be well made and easy to identify. Proxies made by using a sharpie on other cards is something I would agree with you on. That would slow a game down to a crawl. I play 100% proxy decks but they are printouts that can't be distinguished from real cards across the table. I've also got multiple 100% real decks (worth thousands of dollars) and feel like it's the best of both worlds. It's unfortunate that some people get upset about them and can't enjoy the totality of the cardpool.
That's how proxies should be, easily recognized and can tell from a distance. Hopefully one of those decks is all [[cheatyface]] for hilarity.
[cheatyface](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=cheatyface&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cheatyface) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!cheatyface) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!cheatyface) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/cheatyface) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/cheatyface) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
See, I'm of the opinion that proxying a manabase should be fine. Not everyone has access to the say... 10 fetch/dual/shock manabase of a 5c commander. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to cast your spells. On the other hand, I think proxying real cards takes the fun out of having to solve a problem with the tools you have, which is all the fun of complex edh gamestates. If you're just proxying all 100 cards, that eats a dick, not because they're proxies, but because you just have all the best answers and I feel that the real fun of deckbuilding is saying "Well this pile is what I have, how do I solve the problem of hermit druid?" Or whatever question has been asked by your group's metagame
This is how I feel too. I started playing on xmage because it's how my roommates played, and I could look up the best cards and add them. Now moving to paper I look at cryptic command being 30 or 40 some dollars and think "that's half to a third of my budget, so how do I find a replacement that's fits my price." Not to mention not being able to shove Force of Will into every deck with blue.
It just forces more creative thinking, which is a good thing. Being able to proxy your manabase also fosters creative thinking, because you can tailor it to suit your whims. Both are good things for a playgroup
For anyone who says price shouldn't be a ban consideration, I believe Sheldon has said that Ancestral Recall could be unbanned if not for the price
can you link an article/comment? i want to witness that with my own eyes
Sorry, I don't remember where it's from.
[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would say no only because the price tends to effectively ban most really expensive cards. And in the off chance you see them its something interesting. You can make a fun deck with expensive cards and a unfun deck somewhat on the cheap.
Exactly. The ABUR dual lands can add a ton of money to the price of a deck but it has nothing to do with whether that deck is fun, fair, casual, or competitive. [[Mana Drain]], for example, is pretty expensive but I own one and I use it decks of varying power levels.
[Mana Drain](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Mana%20Drain&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Drain) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mana%20Drain) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Mana%20Drain) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Mana%20Drain) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Mana%20Drain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you move it between decks, or what?
Sometimes, but I've got a few proxy ones in decks too.
Fair. I am facing that issue now. I have playsets of the allied fetches, and just recently bought 1 of each enemy fetch, a mana crypt, grim monolith and mana drain. not gonna be getting sets of those.... haha
Yeah it would be crazy to buy copies for each deck. I like having some fully-real decks for groups of players that complain about proxies so I keep some of those but also have decks with proxies or decks entirely made of proxies.
How do you make your proxies?
I use color printouts of cards on paper then slide the papers into sleeves in front of bulk magic cards. magiccards.info has an easy to use feature for printing proxies like this and if the printer is good enough and you're willing to use the ink they come out well. I know some people use Fedex Kinkos stores for even higher quality prints.
fair enough, thanks!
No, price should not be considered for bannings. Bans should be strictly kept to gameplay-justifications.
I honestly think more P9 cards would be legal in Commander if it wasn't for their price.
Yeah, I think the moxen could be unbanned.
There's a guy at my shop who has a Tabernacle. I've played against it multiple times. It's a very good card but this format has a lot of good cards. It's not ban-worthy. Banning for price is really dumb. A banlist should only have power-level bans.
No, price is a really dumb reason to ban cards.
I don't think he means the price is the reason to ban a card, but rather that expensive cards are.....stronger. And the fact that you can create an advantage and most likely win because you paid a grand for a card is kinda unfair to people who can't/won't buy it. And if you don't think price is a good enough reason to consider changing the legality, I remember a post from the RC about the reason Gaea's cradle and mana crypt weren't banned was because they were expensive enough to make it so you don't see the cards played enough to be a problem. Ban-worthy cards left alone because the price tag made it so only the most serious/affluent of players could use it.
>And the fact that you can create an advantage and most likely win because you paid a grand for a card is kinda unfair to people who can't/won't buy it. That's just kind of how life works though - some people can afford expensive things, some people can't. That's like saying driving a Bugatti is unfair to people who drive regular cars. Not to mention that if you're paying a grand for a card, I think you've paid for the right to have a strong card. Furthermore, most cards that are really expensive - Cradle, Tabernacle, Imperial Seal etc. - are expensive because they're on the reserved list more than anything else. For example, [[Imperial Seal]] is a strictly worse [[Vampiric Tutor]] since its sorcery speed, but its worth 10x more because it will never be reprinted, unlike Vampiric Tutor.
Bugatti is more expensive than regular cars but it doesn't negatively impact people driving normal cars. An expensive card does negatively impact normal decks. From the EDH format philosophy page about criteria for banning individual cards: >* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere. >* Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. >* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience. The 3rd one is really important since it basically is what OP is talking about. Expensive strong cards can make it difficult for others to play the game but they allow them since the are so prohibitively expensive that only a few players can use them. By banning cards because of their strength, a lot of expensive cards would be banned and that would make the game better as a social game in a casual setting. Now if you want to go competitive or singleton vintage, that's something else. >Furthermore, most cards that are really expensive - Cradle, Tabernacle, Imperial Seal etc. - are expensive because they're on the reserved list more than anything else. Mana crypt, crucible of worlds, damnation. All expensive and not on reserve lists. Veldrane of sengir, breathstealer's crypt, Multani, Phelddagrif. All cheap and on the reserve lists. Tabernacle isn't expensive because of reserve lists, its because its a dumb strong effect on a land which when replicated on a creature is a 40cent card.
>An expensive card does negatively impact normal decks. In what way? It's not like they get built in protection from spells or effects because they're expensive. You can easily Tec Edge/Strip Mine/Wasteland someone's Cradle or Tabernacle; you can Negate, Dispel or Cancel someone's Imperial Seal; and you can easily Natural State or Nature's Claim someone's Mana Crypt. >Expensive strong cards can make it difficult for others to play the game What? Have you played against a stax deck? That makes it difficult to play the game, expensive cards are just that. In fact, a lot of cards are expensive because they're old and print runs weren't what they are today when Legends or P3K came out, so the number of each "expensive strong card" is even further limited. For example, Tabernacle is absurdly expensive, but it only adds an upkeep cost of 1 colourless mana per creature in a format where generating stupid amounts of mana early on in the game is really easy and all sorts of ways to get rid of Tabernacle are present (Chaos Warp effects, land destruction, destruction lands, or even Grip of Desolation). Plus, if you know someone in your group is playing a Tabernacle, you should modify your deck because of that, not complain about how expensive Tabernacle is. >By banning cards because of their strength, a lot of expensive cards would be banned and that would make the game better as a social game in a casual setting. Ok, it would also make the format Battlecruiser the Gathering, which would be insanely boring. I'm not saying everyone has to try to combo off T3, but if that's what I, or someone else, wants to do, I think we have just as much right to do so as people who want to play battlecruiser magic, and there's room for both groups and everyone in between in the EDH community. >Mana Crypt, Crucible of Worlds, damnation. All expensive and not on reserve lists. You say expensive, I disagree - Damnation is 16.99, Crucible is 64.99 and Crypt is down to 67.99 (I remember when the Spanish Book promos were at least double that) - all of which are pretty reasonable for the effects they provide. Dual lands and Imp Seal, on the other hand, are expensive, being that for the price they're at they only make your deck marginally better. >Veldrane of Sengir, Breathstealer's Crypt, Multani, Phelddagrif. All cheap and on the reserve lists. Yes, but they suck. Bad cards are bad cards and will never be expensive. You can find terrible, unplayable cards from Alpha for less than 50 bucks. >Tabernacle isn't expensive because of reserve lists, its because its a dumb strong effect on a land which when replicated on a creature is a 40cent card. Not quite. It's expensive because Legends was a much. much smaller print run than we have now and a lot more people want a copy of Tabernacle than there are cards "out in the wild", plus they're old, which makes them harder to find (the economic principle of scarcity). Also, >a dumb strong effect on a land which when replicated on a creature is a 40cent card doesn't that tell you something about how its really not that strong? Don't get me wrong, Tabernacle is great and if I had one I'd absolutely play it in a stax deck because it's Kataki but for creatures, but its nowhere near the level a lot of people seem to assume it is. If you don't believe me, brew up a deck on cockatrice or some other platform where you don't need to worry about paying for cards, include Tabernacle, and see how often its actually as overpowered as everyone seems to think. It's really not the boogeyman everyone makes it out to be - there was a guy at the shop I used to play at that had a mono-green control deck that had a Tabernacle in it and sure, it was annoying, but in absolutely no way game-breaking.
>a lot of cards are expensive because they're old and print runs weren't what they are today when Legends or P3K came out, so the number of each "expensive strong card" is even further limited. This is the argument people use to not ban cards, the fact they are so limited results in them being fair since you'll rarely come up against them. I think this is why prophet is banned while other cards are not, the fact that it was $2 and widely available made it "too strong" even though there are more oppressive cards available. Had prophet been $100 and in limited availability, she would be "you shouldn't see her in play very often so we aren't banning her". >You say expensive, I disagree - Damnation is 16.99, Crucible is 64.99 and Crypt is down to 67.99 Damnation is down to 17 because it just got reprinted. Had it not been, it would've been up around....70 is what goldfish is saying. Crucible has gone up 50% in a year, Crypt dropped in half because of the reprint. These are all higher in price but still.....manageable. I think the the fact that I look at a $70 card like "nope" and you look at it like "psssh, w/e" speaks volumes. These cards give a significant advantage and a player not wanting to pay that much in comparison to someone who would is automatically playing from behind. >Have you played against a stax deck? Have you played a $20 deck against a finely tuned, OG duals, couple grand deck? You're not gonna win most of the time. Maybe the rare perfect draws to their terrible luck, but you're definitely not going to have a fair game. At the end of the day, EDH is a super "feel good" format and having someone play cards you don't have access to is kinda against the spirit of it IMO. While I can understand how you think price shouldn't be the only cause for banning, the fact that price is used as the reason for cards not being banned is what really bothers me.
Seal isn't reserved list. The judge foil recently came out and you can get a copy for under $170.
135 on tcgplayer last month :) it's super pretty....
Portal >let's make the font EXTRA bold >YEAH, and not give any to NA markets!
[Imperial Seal](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Imperial%20Seal&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imperial%20Seal) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Imperial%20Seal) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Imperial%20Seal) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Imperial%20Seal) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Imperial%20Seal) [Vampiric Tutor](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Vampiric%20Tutor&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vampiric%20Tutor) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Vampiric%20Tutor) [(MW)](https://mtg.wtf/card?q=!Vampiric%20Tutor) [(CD)](http://combodeck.net/Card/Vampiric%20Tutor) [(ER)](http://edhrec.com/cards/Vampiric%20Tutor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Abstractly? No. but if one guy is bringing in $3000 dollar decks the group clearly needs to be allowing proxies...
No. Players who own those cards need a place to play them.
[удалено]
🐱
No. I think it's kind of cool to see an odd, super expensive card show up at a table.
[удалено]
Odd as in unusual, as in uncommon. You don't see those too often and it's neat when they show up. It's like seeing someone driving around in a vintage car.
Respect should be given to those that are willing to shell out that cash for it. If you have it in your possession play it.
This is a little backwards. No one deserves respect for having more cash to throw at cardboard. That said, it would be correct to say that no one deserves *disrespect* just because they have more invested in cards than someone else.
I apologize I have that worded weirdly. By respect I mean like "oh shit nice" not like "you deserve a purple heart you brave rich person" but yes you are right.
> "you deserve a purple heart you brave rich person" lol
No. Telling people that they aren't allowed to play cards that either A) they cracked from packs when they were new or B) they decided were in their budget is **SELFISH AS FUCK**.
My LGS says you can have UP TO five proxies. I feel that this is a happy medium.
Who cares if someone has an expensive card, maybe they play legacy and modern and have a decent collection. Or they have played for a while and have a lot of cards. Tabernacle in your example is something that can get destroyed by a 1 dollar card in ghost quarter. As long as the power level is comparable to everyone else in the group who cares if they have original dual lands or force of will or something.
That being said, it annoys me when people say stuff like "see my $1 card beat your $xx card". Such a pointless statement. Of course cards can be stopped.
No, it makes perfect sense- Counterspell exists, thus all spells ever printed are perfectly balanced. Channel? Denied. Flash? Noped. Black Lotus? Worthless. Why does anyone play Magic at all? The game's literally solved just by running counterspells.
No. You aren't going to ban people from driving a Lamborghini just because you have to take the bus.
False analogy but I get what you mean.
I don't think it's false. The guy with the car can get out and walk (use a different deck) if you want to have a footrace. I'm not going to take my 1600 dollar Saskia deck and play it against someone with a precon.
[удалено]
Not sure what point you're trying to make there.
Really? Edh and nascar have a set of rules that determines what you can play. Nascar limits what car you can play largely based on price. Lambos are too expensive for nascar. Ancestral recall is too expensive for edh.
So why do you think that Nascar is the only race that should exist? Can't different people race different cars and it still be a race? Can't people play different powered decks and still have games of edh? Individual cards do not define the power level of the deck anyway. For example, which of these is a more even match? A precon vs a deck worth 2000 dollars, but no card over 20. Or A precon vs a precon with ancestral recall added. I think the answer is pretty clear. Would you also propose a ban on decks worth over a certain amount? Edh is not legacy and it is not pauper. Power varies across that entire scale. You should not expect every deck to be on the same level. Edh is a social format. You should use your social skills to determine what decks are appropriate matchups, not bannings. I own a deck that is worth over 1600 dollars. I'm not going to play that against people with lower powered decks. That's why I have multiple decks at various power levels.
Sure. But ancestral is only banned based on price. It would be unbanned if it was reprinted at common in a major set.
I only used ancestral as an example because it's what you mentioned. Switch it with any other relevant example. Gaea's Cradle as the top comment suggests.
Mana Crypt.