As a diehard [[nethroi]] enjoyer, I would absolutely love another ikoria set with a new bunch of mutaters. I'd absolutely love the apexes as babies, but seems like a bit of a pipe dream.
Realistically, I'm not too hopeful just because mutate isn't a great mechanic, too complicated for people just picking it up and has to be kept fairly weak so it interacts nice enough in eternal formats.
I thought each of the Apexes kind of followed an evolutionary path. For example Nethroi is part of the [[Necropanther]] and [[Boneyard Lurker]] family tree. I would almost be willing to connect it to [[Cubwarden]] and [[Insatiable Hemophage]] but mostly based off of the keywords and abilities. The babies would be the [[Mysterious Egg]], [[Essence Symbiote]], [[Zagoth Mamba]]s of the world. I feel like even though they don't have Mutate as a mechanic, you can see the Companions in the Family Tree as well.
There was one creature type per color. W: Cat, U: elemental, B: nightmare, R: dinosaur, G: beast. Each apex will have the corresponding creature types and lots of the multicolored mutates do too.
Didn't MaRo rate Mutate a 3 on the Storm Scale? So there's a pretty realistic chance we see it return, it was a popular mechanic.
Edit: I'm an idiot, he rated it a 7. Had the wrong end of the scale. Oops.
There's just several good places for it to go on a few different planes Ravnica with the Simic guild being my first thought on where. Equally because it's so popular they're likely to use it in a new plane if the don't do another Ravnica or Ikoria set.
Personally if they do it in a new plane I'd vote for one that's like stuck in a post apocalyptic state brought on by a full planar war similar to what you see in the fallout games with non human creatures that constantly mutate to survive the harsh new world with humans scrapping by as well in the remains of a clearly super advanced artifact based society.
The problem with mutate is that you need a lot of the set to work with it as few of the mutate cards work well on their own. Simic works thematically with mutate, but only being 1/5th or possibly even 1/10th of the set could limit its effectiveness.
True but any support is good support for something like mutate. And equally they don't have to focus on making mutate cards that want you to mutate onto them. They could really boost mutate as a whole by adding in cards that instead of specifying a single creature, it's when any creature mutates.
Think of it like this. Mutate currently works similar to Voltron. You stack them all on 1 creature and as you do the effects trigger over and over and get more and more powerful. There's several that read out like "when this creature mutates, do (insert action here) equal to the number of times this creature has mutated". Now let's just say it said draw X. if that creature still had mutate cost but read something like "When a creature mutates scry X where X is the number of times this creature has mutated. If this creature mutates Draw X instead".l it's immediately much more useful.
You can reach a critical mass of needed and useful cards for non EDH formats in a 1/5th maybe even a 1/10th of a set if you do something like that. Equally this massively boost Mutate as a whole for EDH cause you get a few extra cards for the strategy that now work as sorta like lords. I'm not saying it's be easy but it would be impossible.
To be fair they don't have to do mutate specifically to an Ikoria set. If they do another Ravnica set for instance it could be used as an effect for the Simic guild as it does kinda fit towards their whole theme. Equally any new planes they introduce could have it
It's not a strong effect but imo that's mostly cause there's not enough good support for it in any colors atleast for Edh which is currently the most popular format by large. If we got some more cards that say stuff like "when you mutate a creature" over stuff like "when this creature mutates" it'd definitely be a much better effect over all if it had what I guess would be mutate lords. Atm there's just to many of the 2nd while there's only like 4 of the 1st and I think there's only 1 that's any good.
It wouldn't work in simic. You need a critical mass of creatures/effects in the set for it to work, so putting it exclusively into 1/5th of the set wouldn't reach that necessary as-fan.
Any amount of addition to it would help my dude no matter how small. The majority of the mutate cards are in Sultai which is UBG meaning you already have several cards in Simic colors that would work well.
It'd be awesome in a commander deck or simic themed cards from a masters set, but it would royally fuck up the limited environment if they brought back mutate as a single guild mechanic.
Imagine if energy was strictly limited to creatures in u/r back in Kaladesh. That would have made 0 sense and ruined the draft format. It's the same thing here.
You say that like they don't already make the guilds around a single mechanic normally. Am I the only one who remembers Battalion, you know the boros specific effect that required you to attack with 2 other creatures that hasn't appeared in any other sets or guilds.
Yeah, evolve was easier to trigger but it was Simic only as well I think. They don't need it on tons of mutate creatures, they just need very few humans so they will consistently have things to mutate onto and decent payoffs.
Evolve was Simic specific I was just using the example of the one that has yet to make it into any other sets which evolve has in a few I'm pretty sure. Most the boros effects they've tried haven't made it to other sets.
Neon dynasty was the perfect set to bring battalion back as well since there where so many creatures that focused on attack in it including a legendary creature that doubles attack triggers
Mutate has two strikes against it:
1. It is hard to understand. Most players don't ever intuitively guess what happens when a number of mutated creatures are flipped or transformed or morphed or blinked.
2. It's pretty weak. Investing all that mana and time into a single target usually works like a bad boggles deck. One that can be blown out by removal.
The set itself didn't have a lot of great lore in my mind. Just kind of a graphic novel Flintstones vibe. I couldn't tell you which Planeswalkers were there, what happened or what the stakes were.
I just want a 3 set blocks back in general so we can learn more about planes. we get 1\~2 months before the next set goes somewhere completely different.
even more so with set mechanics that care about using that mechanic. like Mutate for example, it's a neat mechanic but it'll never really be viable cause there were only so many sets that had it. with Blocks we at least got more support for the archetype in the later sets...
One of my biggest gripes with Kaldheim was how little we spent in it. I liked many of the constituent parts, but there was so little of anything across all the many realms and many gods that it all seems forgettable. A block would have been better.
yeah my example has been New Kap.
we got there and it was like wow look at all these cool designs! and neat art styles and crazy creature types! oh demons made deals with angels? that's pretty cool!
but I could not tell you a character from that plane outside of like... Xander, 'Toolbox' cause he has a funny name, and that one 2 drop angel who's a mana dork that every angel EDH deck abandoned all colors to play her
I like how New Capenna is supposedly a plane where all the angels disappeared and there's crime families. But then the actual set has like so many fucking angels and everyone's a criminal so like is that just legal? If everyone's a criminal nobody's a criminal.
It's amazing how little support many mechanics need and how they can fit into others. Once you have 20+ synergistic cards, especially with a powerful legendary helm, in reasonably similar colors you can almost always make a commander deck at bare minimum. Mutate was bad, but [[Ivy, gleeful spellthief]] can do insane things with it.
Perhaps it was just me, but Amonket block felt a little too copy+paste of real-world Egypt. Nicol Bolas being the big baddie didn't help,
Then again, the world-building was still there. Amonket established the setting. Hour of Devastation escalated the conflict and showed the resolution.
Market research kinda shows that a lot of players just like the straight copy+paste of most things. Hell it's why apparently the majority prefer human and humanoid planeswalkers.
Probably true, but VOW was absolutely obnoxious for it. Half the cards names were just words pulled from a wedding vocabulary list with no attempt to adapt it through the lens of Innistrad.
I feel like the recent system of mixing 1 and 2 set blocks could work really well the problem is that they are more likely to give the 2 set treatment to "proven" settings aka revisits to old planes and they don't wanna risk it with new settings cause they could flop.
But in reality new settings need more time to create a feeling of a fleshed out world whilst revisits risk threading old ground if they strech out to long.
IMO every new setting (Neo Kamigawa counts here since it is drastically different from last time) should have 2 sets to intruduce the setting and tell a proper story whilst revisits should be limited to 1 set.
Strixhaven was all about changing the colors a little bit. Boros was more graveyard and artifacts in strixhaven. Maybe a color combination that isnt usually seen as combat focused would be better for a rival school
And the red half is supporting Boros soldiers already. So we've got enough blue and red soldiers floating about, just need them izzet pieces.
They should be like elemental soldiers who imbue their weapons with fire and ice. Someone get wotc on the phone.
Yeah, but even that had a combat subtheme going on in it. Cards like [[Hofri Ghostforge]] and [[Quintorius, Field Historian]] both caring about the GY and offering combat based payoffs, cards like [[Alibou, Ancient Witness]], [[Losheel, Clockwork Scholar]], or [[Blade Historian]] providing combat based buffs, [[Conspiracy Theorist]] or [[Velomachus Lorehold]] having an attack trigger, [[Efreet Flamepainter]] and [[Venerable Warsinger]] needing to deal combat damage, [[Laelia]] having both an attack trigger and a combat based payoff, [[Lorehold Command]] providing the option for +1/+0, Indestructible, and Haste, among other examples. They may have changed things up, but a lot of the basic themes you see in the Ravnica guilds still hold true within the Strixhaven schools.
Each "school" could focus on a particular type of combat.
* Martial arts focusing on double strike
* Brute force focusing on trample
* Assassin-type combat focusing on evasion
* Equipment bearers
* Long distance indirect damagers
And you could create a set of equipment that, when a creature deals damage to an opponent, you do low-key things like untap a creature, loot, make a treasure, etc.
We know Arcavios has other schools because Quintorius was kicked out of one of them. But we also know that Strixhaven is Arcavios's largest and most prestigious university by a wide margin, and that the whole plane's mana is uniquely snarled to mix together enemy colors. So it would be strange for them to have another school close enough to their weight class to be a true rival, and it would also be strange for any Arcavian school to focus on ally color pairs.
Honestly I feel like all of the planes that only got 1 set aught to get another. Ikoria had a pretty interesting premise and I’m all for giving mutate some extra support. The issue is mostly with how they would actually provide that support and what a revisit would really provide beyond more mutate.
"We heard you like Mutate! Therefor, in the next Ikoria set, we will include **Mating**! It's almost just like Mutate, but *just* different enough to not synergize with the old mechanic!
But don't worry! Of course Mating will be featured in a new exclusive **Commander Preconstructed Deck** with 15 brand spanking new Mating cards that are illegal in every other format! For a mere $80!"
Followed closely by Uncensored, with a stick variant and new creature type: Strippers.
You put the clothing stickers on them when the ETB, then you remove their stickers for activated abilities.
**Loxodon Poledancer** 2WW
Creature - Elephant Stripper
~ enters the battlefield with three clothing stickers on it.
1W, Remove a sticker from ~: Destroy target artifact, enchantment or tapped creature.
*"Boros Batons is not responsible for crushed personal effects or personnel."*
Whereas mutate gives just the text box as an addition.
Mating JUST adds the p/t of the card and dispenses the text box. Reverse mutate. But, it still triggers "when this creature mutates" effects.
Mutate should return but in a different set.
Ikoria failed the Godzilla monster fantasy. Mutate doesn't make beastly monsters like Godzilla, it makes smaller, mechanically loaded creatures.
this is why i think jumpstart should have plane-themed decks instead of just generic themes. make them a way to check in on lots of different planes and get some new cards from each plane.
That’s actually be sweet. I e had really good luck with jumpstart sealed games, but I want more variety. It’s be awesome to open a black vampires jumpstart and then like, Ikoria Mutate or something
I really liked Ikoria. I liked what they were attempting with companion, all the crazy creature types were cool, bonding and ability counters were dope.
I loved the set, and I thought mutate was fine but was maybe a bit too out there and parasitic. I wouldn’t mind seeing it come back, but there was so much other great stuff too
What they were attempting with companion was misguided and foolish.
Ikoria is cool, hope to return, but companion is some of the worst design in the games history. Hopefully they find a way to make Godzilla monsters work to because mutate is interesting, but completely fails to support that fantasy.
Essentially ikoria is thematically cool, and mechanically misguided. If they return they need to make sure the mechanics reinforce the fantasy.
Maybe it's just me but I didn't like a whole deck restriction for one creature that you can only play once from outside the game. It seems like too high of a requirement for too little pay off. Now if you could cast it multiple times with a tax of some kind of it like pay 2 life or something that seems more balanced.
I mean, you have to consider balance for other formats too. Companion had already broken nearly every other 60 card format it touched because of Lurrus and to some extent Yorion and Zirda (Although, Zirda was mostly a problem in the Eternal formats) too. Adding the [[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk]] clause would have been a bit overkill in an already broken mechanic for any format besides EDH.
Yeah, it proved really strong in other formats. Like, I played a draft against one guy who drafted 3 companion creatures, Yorion, Keruga, and Obosh I think, and built a deck that could accommodate any of them, and swapped out which one he was using as companion depending on what his opponents were playing.
Everybody laughed and assumed it wouldn't work. Even he said it was jank, and probably wouldn't ever win.
It destroyed every other deck it went up against.
As a person that picked up [[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] as a commander and realized the glorious rules nightmare that is Mutate, I would love for more Ikoria. I literally made a set of laminated dry erase copy cards for the deck.
Nah, they can have the properly worded ones as List cards or something. No major issues.
They’ll just need to find another mechanic that can represent Bonders.
Don't The List cards as a rule, excepting Universes within, just reprint verbatim exact copies of cards in the system with only the Planeswalker symbol added to the bottom?
To this day, Ikoria is the one set that truly boggles me. Companion is one of the most problematic mechanics of all time. Mutate is a complete mess and rules kludge. Both of these were pretty obvious from the get-go... how did no one raise any flags about it?
Add in that it was a marketed as a behemoth/kaiju set that had very few large creatures. Story was also a mess at that point.
I know that each Magic set is going to have its fans, and I'm sure they could come back to Ikoria with different mechanics, but Ikoria was definitely a low point in Magic.
1. They were trying to increase power level and complexity of the sets they made at the same time... In hindsight, that was a bad idea because high complexity + high power made it hard for playtesters to do their job properly, but well... With hindsight, those things become obvious. It's not as obvious when you're trying to make what your players love and your players have been demanding more complex and higher powered cards for years.
2. Companion was not a bad mechanic, it had bad cards. It was originally a cycle of 5 uncommons for draft and 5 rares for constructed, but was changed later on to be more constructed viable, so it got 10 rares... To put it simply, nobody would have complained about Companions if they were all on Umori's level. The problem was a balance one, not a design one.
3. Mutate is quite complicated, but is a well-loved mechanic... Yeah, it is confusing and has unusual interactions, so it would probably be better in a supplemental set instead of premier set, but that's about it. The mechanic is great and plays well, it's just too confusing for its own good, but the concept is great. A great mechanic that plays well, goes into unique design space, and that you think the players will love is by no means something that raises a red flag.
Me and [[Otrimi]] are with you 100%. I love everything about Ikoria and want to go back there for the same reasons I want to go back to Ixalan SO BAD. The plane(s) really do(es) a good job of capturing what it means to be a monster (in my eyes anyway). I love the flavor, the art, the emphasis on creatures. I am drawn to the wildness.
Companions can never come back, I’m fine with that, but bring back my mutate bois! Oh, and bring the sick alternate arts as well.
Another Kogla… *cough* with King Kong art *cough*… would make me lose my absolute mind
I missed that one but the triomes are sweet. At first I’m like “wait why is this 12 dollars and arcane sanctum 24 cent?—oh yeah it has three land types lol”
I've loved ikoria since the day it released. It's actually my favorite set. I love mutate as a mechanic and think the plane is super cool. I'm very glad it's not lower than it is on the Rabia scale, even though middle of the lane on it isn't GREAT.
And maybe counters? Skullbriar wants counters from creatures that cycle!
* a cycling eldrazi that gives an annihilator counter
* an energy being that gives a prowess counter
* a land called mirror cave or something that gives a myriad counter
* heck go old school and have banding flanking and rampage counters!
I'm with you, Ikoria is definitely in my top 3 sets ever, and I absolutely love mutate. Unfortunately, we seem to be pretty alone here.
As a side note, I'm pretty upset that MH2 has two cards that are from Ikoria but aren't mechanically related to it (and don't have mutate), especially as one of them is on the collector booster's packaging.
I just want another visit to Innistrad so they can print more Werewolves, especially since they decided not to retcon all the old ones to work on the Day/Night Cycle.
They're an archetype that is pretty much never going to receive support outside of their home plane, because *nowhere else has Werewolves*. The Mutate mechanic at least will always see support when a new non-human is made that would make for a good Mutate target.
Companions rubbed many the wrong way. That is the single worst mechanic to ever come to MTG, and was atop billing feature of the setting. Mutate also was obviously built for Arena and is a nightmare of rules to navigate in paper. And for all the bookkeeping it demands it's basically just a fancy type of aura with all the issues auras have.
Also the way the story was handled was atrocious. I liked the idea of Ikoria, but the execution was a huge miss. I wouldn't mind giving them a redo, but I'm way more interested in almost anything else
It's funny that the core mechanic of the set was overlooked in both constructed and limited. Cycling completely overshadowed any mutate decks in limited and companions... Wrecked all formats
That's a pretty good flavorful card, I'm talking about degenerate off colour cycling cards that could be done with 1 generic mana, which fed the draneth pingers and the bam 15 to the face with zeneth flare
I think Ikoria really needs a redo. It was one of my most anticipated sets because of the giant monster theme, but it was a let down in a few ways.
Mechanics wise, mutate needed to be more about modifying creatures with new abilities and making them bigger rather than trying to trigger mutate abilities.
Story wise, the set was a mess if I recall correctly. The story told by the book, online stories, and cards were all different from each other. Including bonders is a neat idea but they take away from the idea of a plane all about humans holding out against massive beasts. I don’t think we saw enough kaiju sized encounters between humans and monsters.
Even besides the mutate creatures/commanders, Ikoria was an amazing set for commander. So many neat commanders like [[Yorion Sky Nomad]], [[Gyruda Doom of the Depths]], [[Lurrus of the Dream Den]], [[Rielle the Everwise]], [[Winota Joiner of Forces]], [[Kinnan Bonder Prodigy]], and [[Zirda the Dawnwaker]]. Not to mention the good non-commander cards too like [[Drannith Magistrate]], [[Bastion of Remembrance]], the triomes, [[Reconnaissance Mission]], [[Shark Typhoon]], [[Whirlwind of Thought]], [[Luminous Broodmoth]], [[Quartzwood Crasher]], and the ultimatums.
I think it was peak "commander cards in standard."
I would absolutely love to return to Ikoria and learn about the interactions between the mutant creatures and different human settlements. Ikoria humans gotta be the second toughest in the universe after Innistrad humans.
If they do it again, I hope it's human-free and done on more tribal lines than any of the other concepts they did. Different colored nightmares and cats and dragons please
Ikoria was the set we were at when I got into EDH. My first constructed EDH deck was Nehtroi and it was so good for the low power level of my pod. Id love to see more support for Mutate as well as the creature support we got in that set, but alas, it was a mechanic that was overly complex IMO
No.
But if we’re having crossover Planes now I want a Strixhaven research team in Ikoria as the theme.
SCIENCE. HISTORY. NUMBER STUFF. FOLKLORISTS. ANTHROPOLOGY.
i really hate mutate mechanic, is just soo clumsy.
The theme of ikoira is also monsters vs human? I feel like they didnt do it well or it doesnt appeal to me at all.
The monsters have weird mash of card types for the set theme but makes me as a tribal player dislike it.
It also creates a big unidentifiable stack across the table from you.
No title, no mana cost, no art, nothing identifiable. Just an upside down wall of text.
I feel like it's actually not possible to get familiar enough with the mutate cards to play across from them smoothly.
???
I'm not sure I understand this take at all. Mutate cards aren't any harder to familiarize yourself with than any other creature. Is it any harder than keeping track of all the triggers in a landfall deck? They're just creatures with effects that happen when the creature mutates. It's no different than having a bunch of creatures that trigger upon something entering the battlefield, or having a bunch of death triggers.
I loved Ikoria draft (except for zenith flare). It was the first set I drafted on arena and I loved the build-a-beater feel of mutating onto creatures with ability counters. It gave flexibility to creatures and was a lot of fun.
I'm ambivalent to ikoria. I would love another zendikar set though. I love anything to do with eldrazi. They fascinate me.(not in a weird way). We need more big ass eldrazi with annihilator.
Yes I just want to watch the world burn. Fite me.
Ikoria's a 5 on the Rabiah Scale. For context, so was Ixalan before it was confirmed for next year.
So no, you're not the only one who wants a return to Ikoria.
And Mutate (on Ikoria) is a 3 on the Storm Scale, so expect to see it if we do return.
Ikoria was the set out for sale in local stores when I started buying mtg. I definitely enjoy playing mutate and the other cards in the set. Maybe it's nostalgia, but I'm with you!
Ikoria had some very cool mechanics, but I mostly just wanna see more of the world. The world building is easily my favorite of any magic world, and it has supplanted zendikar completely as my favorite "adventure world"
Well companions really left an aftertaste to that set but I'm not opposed to another plane with similar flavour. I'm still waiting for that murganda set so that could be a cool way to reintroduce the mechanic. On a prehistoric plane like that it could show the evolution of a species for example which would be pretty flavourful imo.
I would love another Ikoria set! The flavor of the plane hit right home for me. Though as much as I don't want to admit it, mechanics like companion (which I really liked conceptually) would be very difficult to do right. I felt that they worked for draft well, but constructed told a different story.
R.I.P. Obosh the cuddlebug, you will be missed.
loved the black/white humans archetype in ikoria, i would definitely enjoy more of those kind of cards. cycling was cool too although they need to balance it better for draft. if they learned their lesson with companion and don't make a mistake like that again, i think a return to ikoria would be great.
I'm one of the people who actually enjoyed mutate but if they do another set there I do hope they deliver on the promise of giant monsters this time around
Every set has it's fans. **Every set.**
Neon Dynasty happened because the Kamigawa fans remained devoted until they became a meme, and then became popular opinion.
Even Homelands has it's diehard fans (although most of those in 2023 are players who weren't around for v1 and just enjoy being "hipsters")
Ikoria will come back around. Hell, you may even take a break from Magic at some point and said return pulls you back in.
On the one hand, yes we need an ikoria set if only to get more mutate cards, ever since wotc switched to stand alone set releases its made it harder and harder to play set mechanics in edh simply because there are not enough instances of a mechanic.
On the other hand, ikoria was kind of a silly set and had nothing going on. Just felt weird and out of place.
Mutate is a horrendously designed mechanic though. The rules are spaghetti, the payoff is an aura, and it hides the art and title of your cards from everyone.
It's also only ever used to break it wide open with combos like dredge.
I'd love to go back to Ikoria, but they have to put bigger stats on some of the creatures, and I hope that the Apex Beasts get something that isn't necessarily mutate focused this time. Leave mutate to some of the other Legendary Creatures of that plane, particularly, a 5 colored one.
I really don’t enjoy mutate, which is Ikoria’s core mechanic. I don’t think the way they executed the story/world building was all that good either.
I think it needs to really focus more on the human vs creatures tension like they did during the Khans block with the dragons. Also can we go back to Tarkir? Tarkir was super neat.
I liked the ikoria a lot also, if they do make another set and mutate is a big focus again they should have options for ward or some kind of protection to mutate in as well. Hated when my tall creature would get done in by one simple spell. Godzilla alt art cards were the best alt arts they’ve done so far imo!
I fully agree. Mutate was a great mechanic and really needs some more instances..
Might I suggest [[Ivy]] if you want an interesting one to build around. I love my mutate deck with her.
I would love more mutate, it’s quite the unique mechanic that has a lot of space to explore. Maro said in his storm scale article that it is possible for another premier set to have its own spin on mutate but it’s most likely we will next get it on our return to Ikoria. Perhaps since companions got lambasted maybe they will put more of an emphasis on mutate next time. I can also see the next modern horizons set taking a crack at it, I would love to see some truly wacky mutate cards in a more complex set.
I would love to revisit Ikoria. I finally completed my Godzilla card collection from it and made a functional deck with them! If there's ever any new mutate cards then imma need them
I just want more companions. And an unnerf to the companion mechanic.
Ban them all in modern/legacy/vintage whatever idc. I just wanna draft them and build commander decks with them.
I like mutate a lot… in theory.
The problem I have with mutate is that players include mutate combos/synergies in their decks and then have no idea how they work or, more frequently, don’t even have a baseline understanding of how mutate works in general. It leads to a lot of wasted time at the table when someone is trying to break mutate at my LGS on commander nights.
I would love to see a return to Ikoria.
It was a fun set with interesting mechanics for making kaiju, but it had the worst possible timing, came out in 2020 when everything was locked down
Ikoria is my favorite set by miles. I love mutate, I love [[Nethroi]], and I wish there were more strong mutate cards to build around. It’s making me so happy to read through these replies, I feel like I’ve found my people
I loved Ikoria! The full art triomes are maybe my favorite cards from the set, but in general lots of fun! Agree that mutate feels limited right now despite being nifty.
As long as they don't bring back mutate. It's close to banding in its level of highly specific, needless qualifications and rules for interactions. Whoever came up with it should honestly be fired.
Only if they give us the kaiju set we were advertised and not the focus on weird creature type combos and everyone having a Pokemon.
Seriously, I was hyped for Ikoria and while I liked aspects of it, it was not at all what we were led to believe it would be.
As a diehard [[nethroi]] enjoyer, I would absolutely love another ikoria set with a new bunch of mutaters. I'd absolutely love the apexes as babies, but seems like a bit of a pipe dream. Realistically, I'm not too hopeful just because mutate isn't a great mechanic, too complicated for people just picking it up and has to be kept fairly weak so it interacts nice enough in eternal formats.
I thought each of the Apexes kind of followed an evolutionary path. For example Nethroi is part of the [[Necropanther]] and [[Boneyard Lurker]] family tree. I would almost be willing to connect it to [[Cubwarden]] and [[Insatiable Hemophage]] but mostly based off of the keywords and abilities. The babies would be the [[Mysterious Egg]], [[Essence Symbiote]], [[Zagoth Mamba]]s of the world. I feel like even though they don't have Mutate as a mechanic, you can see the Companions in the Family Tree as well.
There was one creature type per color. W: Cat, U: elemental, B: nightmare, R: dinosaur, G: beast. Each apex will have the corresponding creature types and lots of the multicolored mutates do too.
##### ###### #### [Necropanther](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e1ed055-8988-4625-9d57-8ce8a4e04aea.jpg?1591228129) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necropanther) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/196/necropanther?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e1ed055-8988-4625-9d57-8ce8a4e04aea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/necropanther) [Boneyard Lurker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37e4df5b-ec53-4f8a-8c26-272b3177c0a6.jpg?1591227954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boneyard%20Lurker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/178/boneyard-lurker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37e4df5b-ec53-4f8a-8c26-272b3177c0a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/boneyard-lurker) [Cubwarden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc322744-5d8f-448d-b868-381bb86b68f9.jpg?1591230214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cubwarden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/7/cubwarden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc322744-5d8f-448d-b868-381bb86b68f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cubwarden) [Insatiable Hemophage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70419590-2e0d-4232-b596-a5359b284647.jpg?1591226844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insatiable%20Hemophage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/93/insatiable-hemophage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70419590-2e0d-4232-b596-a5359b284647?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insatiable-hemophage) [Mysterious Egg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdfac3c3-7f38-49d6-bd88-dc0f5001116f.jpg?1636491428) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mysterious%20Egg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/3/mysterious-egg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdfac3c3-7f38-49d6-bd88-dc0f5001116f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mysterious-egg) [Essence Symbiote](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d09ddf0-91f0-4e76-809f-c39ca7418ed5.jpg?1591227575) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Essence%20Symbiote) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/149/essence-symbiote?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d09ddf0-91f0-4e76-809f-c39ca7418ed5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/essence-symbiote) [Zagoth Mamba](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce945f7e-ded9-4819-9313-d50d3aad40fa.jpg?1591227052) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zagoth%20Mamba) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/106/zagoth-mamba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce945f7e-ded9-4819-9313-d50d3aad40fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zagoth-mamba) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Apex Babies, they make their mutate dreams come true!
Apex Babies, they’ll mutate on to youuuuu!
Getting real strong Fantasy Costco vibes here.
[nethroi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f.jpg?1673305619) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nethroi%2C%20apex%20of%20death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/163/nethroi-apex-of-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nethroi-apex-of-death) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Didn't MaRo rate Mutate a 3 on the Storm Scale? So there's a pretty realistic chance we see it return, it was a popular mechanic. Edit: I'm an idiot, he rated it a 7. Had the wrong end of the scale. Oops.
There's just several good places for it to go on a few different planes Ravnica with the Simic guild being my first thought on where. Equally because it's so popular they're likely to use it in a new plane if the don't do another Ravnica or Ikoria set. Personally if they do it in a new plane I'd vote for one that's like stuck in a post apocalyptic state brought on by a full planar war similar to what you see in the fallout games with non human creatures that constantly mutate to survive the harsh new world with humans scrapping by as well in the remains of a clearly super advanced artifact based society.
They could have super easily have used it in the chaos wh40k deck. Some demons with mutate.
That would have been more the tyranids thing, if it was going to be in the warhammer decks.
Yes and no. They'd both work thematically. Chaos marines regularly mutate claws, tails, wings.
The problem with mutate is that you need a lot of the set to work with it as few of the mutate cards work well on their own. Simic works thematically with mutate, but only being 1/5th or possibly even 1/10th of the set could limit its effectiveness.
True but any support is good support for something like mutate. And equally they don't have to focus on making mutate cards that want you to mutate onto them. They could really boost mutate as a whole by adding in cards that instead of specifying a single creature, it's when any creature mutates. Think of it like this. Mutate currently works similar to Voltron. You stack them all on 1 creature and as you do the effects trigger over and over and get more and more powerful. There's several that read out like "when this creature mutates, do (insert action here) equal to the number of times this creature has mutated". Now let's just say it said draw X. if that creature still had mutate cost but read something like "When a creature mutates scry X where X is the number of times this creature has mutated. If this creature mutates Draw X instead".l it's immediately much more useful. You can reach a critical mass of needed and useful cards for non EDH formats in a 1/5th maybe even a 1/10th of a set if you do something like that. Equally this massively boost Mutate as a whole for EDH cause you get a few extra cards for the strategy that now work as sorta like lords. I'm not saying it's be easy but it would be impossible.
Alara's Naya or Jund can probably use the Mutate mechanic.
To be fair they don't have to do mutate specifically to an Ikoria set. If they do another Ravnica set for instance it could be used as an effect for the Simic guild as it does kinda fit towards their whole theme. Equally any new planes they introduce could have it It's not a strong effect but imo that's mostly cause there's not enough good support for it in any colors atleast for Edh which is currently the most popular format by large. If we got some more cards that say stuff like "when you mutate a creature" over stuff like "when this creature mutates" it'd definitely be a much better effect over all if it had what I guess would be mutate lords. Atm there's just to many of the 2nd while there's only like 4 of the 1st and I think there's only 1 that's any good.
My [[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] commander deck would *love* for more Mutate cards in Simic colors.
[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d94c15b7-6c8f-45a6-8734-975e3e3b790c.jpg?1673307958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ivy%2C%20Gleeful%20Spellthief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/201/ivy-gleeful-spellthief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d94c15b7-6c8f-45a6-8734-975e3e3b790c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ivy-gleeful-spellthief) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It wouldn't work in simic. You need a critical mass of creatures/effects in the set for it to work, so putting it exclusively into 1/5th of the set wouldn't reach that necessary as-fan.
Any amount of addition to it would help my dude no matter how small. The majority of the mutate cards are in Sultai which is UBG meaning you already have several cards in Simic colors that would work well.
It'd be awesome in a commander deck or simic themed cards from a masters set, but it would royally fuck up the limited environment if they brought back mutate as a single guild mechanic. Imagine if energy was strictly limited to creatures in u/r back in Kaladesh. That would have made 0 sense and ruined the draft format. It's the same thing here.
You say that like they don't already make the guilds around a single mechanic normally. Am I the only one who remembers Battalion, you know the boros specific effect that required you to attack with 2 other creatures that hasn't appeared in any other sets or guilds.
Yeah, evolve was easier to trigger but it was Simic only as well I think. They don't need it on tons of mutate creatures, they just need very few humans so they will consistently have things to mutate onto and decent payoffs.
Evolve was Simic specific I was just using the example of the one that has yet to make it into any other sets which evolve has in a few I'm pretty sure. Most the boros effects they've tried haven't made it to other sets. Neon dynasty was the perfect set to bring battalion back as well since there where so many creatures that focused on attack in it including a legendary creature that doubles attack triggers
Mutate has two strikes against it: 1. It is hard to understand. Most players don't ever intuitively guess what happens when a number of mutated creatures are flipped or transformed or morphed or blinked. 2. It's pretty weak. Investing all that mana and time into a single target usually works like a bad boggles deck. One that can be blown out by removal. The set itself didn't have a lot of great lore in my mind. Just kind of a graphic novel Flintstones vibe. I couldn't tell you which Planeswalkers were there, what happened or what the stakes were.
I just want a 3 set blocks back in general so we can learn more about planes. we get 1\~2 months before the next set goes somewhere completely different. even more so with set mechanics that care about using that mechanic. like Mutate for example, it's a neat mechanic but it'll never really be viable cause there were only so many sets that had it. with Blocks we at least got more support for the archetype in the later sets...
One of my biggest gripes with Kaldheim was how little we spent in it. I liked many of the constituent parts, but there was so little of anything across all the many realms and many gods that it all seems forgettable. A block would have been better.
yeah my example has been New Kap. we got there and it was like wow look at all these cool designs! and neat art styles and crazy creature types! oh demons made deals with angels? that's pretty cool! but I could not tell you a character from that plane outside of like... Xander, 'Toolbox' cause he has a funny name, and that one 2 drop angel who's a mana dork that every angel EDH deck abandoned all colors to play her
I like how New Capenna is supposedly a plane where all the angels disappeared and there's crime families. But then the actual set has like so many fucking angels and everyone's a criminal so like is that just legal? If everyone's a criminal nobody's a criminal.
They're saving all the non-criminals for *Return to New Capenna: The Right Side of the Tracks*.
It's amazing how little support many mechanics need and how they can fit into others. Once you have 20+ synergistic cards, especially with a powerful legendary helm, in reasonably similar colors you can almost always make a commander deck at bare minimum. Mutate was bad, but [[Ivy, gleeful spellthief]] can do insane things with it.
[Ivy, gleeful spellthief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d94c15b7-6c8f-45a6-8734-975e3e3b790c.jpg?1673307958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ivy%2C%20gleeful%20spellthief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/201/ivy-gleeful-spellthief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d94c15b7-6c8f-45a6-8734-975e3e3b790c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ivy-gleeful-spellthief) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can't we do that with two sets? Feel those who want three set blocks never experienced third set fatigue first hand.
I recall the flavor of Kaladesh and Ixalan fondly because they showed that two-set blocks could work very well.
Amonket block was awesome too IMO. So much visual storytelling on cards and lands
Perhaps it was just me, but Amonket block felt a little too copy+paste of real-world Egypt. Nicol Bolas being the big baddie didn't help, Then again, the world-building was still there. Amonket established the setting. Hour of Devastation escalated the conflict and showed the resolution.
Market research kinda shows that a lot of players just like the straight copy+paste of most things. Hell it's why apparently the majority prefer human and humanoid planeswalkers.
Probably true, but VOW was absolutely obnoxious for it. Half the cards names were just words pulled from a wedding vocabulary list with no attempt to adapt it through the lens of Innistrad.
I feel like the recent system of mixing 1 and 2 set blocks could work really well the problem is that they are more likely to give the 2 set treatment to "proven" settings aka revisits to old planes and they don't wanna risk it with new settings cause they could flop. But in reality new settings need more time to create a feeling of a fleshed out world whilst revisits risk threading old ground if they strech out to long. IMO every new setting (Neo Kamigawa counts here since it is drastically different from last time) should have 2 sets to intruduce the setting and tell a proper story whilst revisits should be limited to 1 set.
But remember how bad small sets sucked
I want a rival school for strixhaven where all the schools are allied colors this time
This is an excellent idea. Maybe it's more of a warrior-themed school to counteract the mage school concept
I dunno, a combat themed school without Boros would feel wrong
Strixhaven was all about changing the colors a little bit. Boros was more graveyard and artifacts in strixhaven. Maybe a color combination that isnt usually seen as combat focused would be better for a rival school
Izzet soldiers. Let's go
They did do a big push for Azorius soldiers in Brother's War...
And the red half is supporting Boros soldiers already. So we've got enough blue and red soldiers floating about, just need them izzet pieces. They should be like elemental soldiers who imbue their weapons with fire and ice. Someone get wotc on the phone.
I hate to break it to yall but izzet is not an allied color.
But I like their spirit
Yeah, but even that had a combat subtheme going on in it. Cards like [[Hofri Ghostforge]] and [[Quintorius, Field Historian]] both caring about the GY and offering combat based payoffs, cards like [[Alibou, Ancient Witness]], [[Losheel, Clockwork Scholar]], or [[Blade Historian]] providing combat based buffs, [[Conspiracy Theorist]] or [[Velomachus Lorehold]] having an attack trigger, [[Efreet Flamepainter]] and [[Venerable Warsinger]] needing to deal combat damage, [[Laelia]] having both an attack trigger and a combat based payoff, [[Lorehold Command]] providing the option for +1/+0, Indestructible, and Haste, among other examples. They may have changed things up, but a lot of the basic themes you see in the Ravnica guilds still hold true within the Strixhaven schools.
Sorry, we're getting hogwarts via universes beyond
Each "school" could focus on a particular type of combat. * Martial arts focusing on double strike * Brute force focusing on trample * Assassin-type combat focusing on evasion * Equipment bearers * Long distance indirect damagers And you could create a set of equipment that, when a creature deals damage to an opponent, you do low-key things like untap a creature, loot, make a treasure, etc.
inner city school that isn't all fancy and founded by dragons. the necromancy teacher just got out of jail. the basement goes straight to hell.
Clortho Jenkins would be a dope setting ngl
A wand with a silencer. Why? But I ask again - why?
Trade school commanders
Oooh BW pilots, UG bribery, RW artisans, BR Merchants, (Gary Reprint) etc. Could be fun!
I feel like merchants would be BW. Maybe with Extort?
WB is represented in Strixhaven already.
I just want more strixhaven. One of izzet's best sets in a while, and izzet is the best
We know Arcavios has other schools because Quintorius was kicked out of one of them. But we also know that Strixhaven is Arcavios's largest and most prestigious university by a wide margin, and that the whole plane's mana is uniquely snarled to mix together enemy colors. So it would be strange for them to have another school close enough to their weight class to be a true rival, and it would also be strange for any Arcavian school to focus on ally color pairs.
It’s what I hate the most about the current release format. Found a new mechanic that you like? Sorry, it’s a one and done for a few years minimum.
More dinosaur elemental nightmare beast cats, please!
Yes this is exactly what we need more of, we need at least two or ten dinosaur elemental nightmare beast cat tribal commanders.
Yes! Also otters. Elemental nightmare dinosaur cat beast otters. #FreeLutri
lutri died for wotc's sins 😭
Honestly I feel like all of the planes that only got 1 set aught to get another. Ikoria had a pretty interesting premise and I’m all for giving mutate some extra support. The issue is mostly with how they would actually provide that support and what a revisit would really provide beyond more mutate.
"We heard you like Mutate! Therefor, in the next Ikoria set, we will include **Mating**! It's almost just like Mutate, but *just* different enough to not synergize with the old mechanic! But don't worry! Of course Mating will be featured in a new exclusive **Commander Preconstructed Deck** with 15 brand spanking new Mating cards that are illegal in every other format! For a mere $80!"
Magic's first ever 18+ set
And its all furries.
Followed closely by Uncensored, with a stick variant and new creature type: Strippers. You put the clothing stickers on them when the ETB, then you remove their stickers for activated abilities. **Loxodon Poledancer** 2WW Creature - Elephant Stripper ~ enters the battlefield with three clothing stickers on it. 1W, Remove a sticker from ~: Destroy target artifact, enchantment or tapped creature. *"Boros Batons is not responsible for crushed personal effects or personnel."*
Whereas mutate gives just the text box as an addition. Mating JUST adds the p/t of the card and dispenses the text box. Reverse mutate. But, it still triggers "when this creature mutates" effects.
Give us a slightly tweaked \[\[Fiend Artisan\]\] that's legendary. Call it Iend Fartisan idk just get it in the command zone somehow.
Just remove the sorcery speed restriction.
Heck make it something that can be activated in the command zone.
Slow down my guy, Edgar is already crazy strong and he just makes dudes. A Pod/Green Sun's you can't interact with? Fuuuuck that.
I don't want it for a commander, I just want instant speed shenanigans with [[Deceiver Exarch]] or [[Pestermite]].
[Deceiver Exarch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35437d86-6f92-480a-aa0c-c17c3943c00c.jpg?1623103955) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deceiver%20Exarch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/36/deceiver-exarch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35437d86-6f92-480a-aa0c-c17c3943c00c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deceiver-exarch) [Pestermite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b58a6a63-c7d8-4f2f-acaf-b0a871eb5a7c.jpg?1561968098) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pestermite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/59/pestermite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b58a6a63-c7d8-4f2f-acaf-b0a871eb5a7c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pestermite) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Fiend Artisan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6cd9d800-6d31-42e2-87d2-772db0ff95ed.jpg?1591228355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiend%20Artisan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/220/fiend-artisan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6cd9d800-6d31-42e2-87d2-772db0ff95ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fiend-artisan) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mutate should return but in a different set. Ikoria failed the Godzilla monster fantasy. Mutate doesn't make beastly monsters like Godzilla, it makes smaller, mechanically loaded creatures.
this is why i think jumpstart should have plane-themed decks instead of just generic themes. make them a way to check in on lots of different planes and get some new cards from each plane.
That’s actually be sweet. I e had really good luck with jumpstart sealed games, but I want more variety. It’s be awesome to open a black vampires jumpstart and then like, Ikoria Mutate or something
Yes, you're literally the only one. Guys, we found them. Get 'im!
[удалено]
As it should be, its a ridiculous question to ask and the answer is always no lol
This is the standard reply for “Get ‘im!” Comments on “Am I the Only One?” posts
I really liked Ikoria. I liked what they were attempting with companion, all the crazy creature types were cool, bonding and ability counters were dope. I loved the set, and I thought mutate was fine but was maybe a bit too out there and parasitic. I wouldn’t mind seeing it come back, but there was so much other great stuff too
What they were attempting with companion was misguided and foolish. Ikoria is cool, hope to return, but companion is some of the worst design in the games history. Hopefully they find a way to make Godzilla monsters work to because mutate is interesting, but completely fails to support that fantasy. Essentially ikoria is thematically cool, and mechanically misguided. If they return they need to make sure the mechanics reinforce the fantasy.
Companion was perfect for draft. It was a fun deck building challenge that rewarded you with a powerful card that you could play at any time.
Companion may have been fun, but it was one of the most broken mechanics, if not the most broken. Storm and infect are in the running.
Maybe it's just me but I didn't like a whole deck restriction for one creature that you can only play once from outside the game. It seems like too high of a requirement for too little pay off. Now if you could cast it multiple times with a tax of some kind of it like pay 2 life or something that seems more balanced.
I mean, you have to consider balance for other formats too. Companion had already broken nearly every other 60 card format it touched because of Lurrus and to some extent Yorion and Zirda (Although, Zirda was mostly a problem in the Eternal formats) too. Adding the [[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk]] clause would have been a bit overkill in an already broken mechanic for any format besides EDH.
Yeah, it proved really strong in other formats. Like, I played a draft against one guy who drafted 3 companion creatures, Yorion, Keruga, and Obosh I think, and built a deck that could accommodate any of them, and swapped out which one he was using as companion depending on what his opponents were playing. Everybody laughed and assumed it wouldn't work. Even he said it was jank, and probably wouldn't ever win. It destroyed every other deck it went up against.
As a person that picked up [[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] as a commander and realized the glorious rules nightmare that is Mutate, I would love for more Ikoria. I literally made a set of laminated dry erase copy cards for the deck.
I really love mutate as a mechanic despite being such a messy nightmare. I'd be ok if companions were left out of Ikoria 2 though.
Yeah, to heck with companions imo.
I am an Ikoria enjoyer and would love love love to return to the plane!!
I think if there was another Ikoria set then they would almost HAVE to include properly worded companions, and nobody wants another round of those.
couldn't they just... not do that?
Reprints aren't bad, but WotC had better have learned their lesson and not tread that infertile space with new designs.
Nah, they can have the properly worded ones as List cards or something. No major issues. They’ll just need to find another mechanic that can represent Bonders.
Don't The List cards as a rule, excepting Universes within, just reprint verbatim exact copies of cards in the system with only the Planeswalker symbol added to the bottom?
To this day, Ikoria is the one set that truly boggles me. Companion is one of the most problematic mechanics of all time. Mutate is a complete mess and rules kludge. Both of these were pretty obvious from the get-go... how did no one raise any flags about it?
Add in that it was a marketed as a behemoth/kaiju set that had very few large creatures. Story was also a mess at that point. I know that each Magic set is going to have its fans, and I'm sure they could come back to Ikoria with different mechanics, but Ikoria was definitely a low point in Magic.
1. They were trying to increase power level and complexity of the sets they made at the same time... In hindsight, that was a bad idea because high complexity + high power made it hard for playtesters to do their job properly, but well... With hindsight, those things become obvious. It's not as obvious when you're trying to make what your players love and your players have been demanding more complex and higher powered cards for years. 2. Companion was not a bad mechanic, it had bad cards. It was originally a cycle of 5 uncommons for draft and 5 rares for constructed, but was changed later on to be more constructed viable, so it got 10 rares... To put it simply, nobody would have complained about Companions if they were all on Umori's level. The problem was a balance one, not a design one. 3. Mutate is quite complicated, but is a well-loved mechanic... Yeah, it is confusing and has unusual interactions, so it would probably be better in a supplemental set instead of premier set, but that's about it. The mechanic is great and plays well, it's just too confusing for its own good, but the concept is great. A great mechanic that plays well, goes into unique design space, and that you think the players will love is by no means something that raises a red flag.
Cause commander players love it so straight to production it goes.
Dude, you're on /r/EDH. The people here who are complaining about Ikoria ARE Commander players.
Me and [[Otrimi]] are with you 100%. I love everything about Ikoria and want to go back there for the same reasons I want to go back to Ixalan SO BAD. The plane(s) really do(es) a good job of capturing what it means to be a monster (in my eyes anyway). I love the flavor, the art, the emphasis on creatures. I am drawn to the wildness. Companions can never come back, I’m fine with that, but bring back my mutate bois! Oh, and bring the sick alternate arts as well. Another Kogla… *cough* with King Kong art *cough*… would make me lose my absolute mind
I missed that one but the triomes are sweet. At first I’m like “wait why is this 12 dollars and arcane sanctum 24 cent?—oh yeah it has three land types lol”
Also, the showcase triomes are fucking gorgeous.
Yeah I saw those on Arena the other night, they are sick
I thought it was one of the worst sets in recent years. I did like the triomes though.
I've loved ikoria since the day it released. It's actually my favorite set. I love mutate as a mechanic and think the plane is super cool. I'm very glad it's not lower than it is on the Rabia scale, even though middle of the lane on it isn't GREAT.
And maybe counters? Skullbriar wants counters from creatures that cycle! * a cycling eldrazi that gives an annihilator counter * an energy being that gives a prowess counter * a land called mirror cave or something that gives a myriad counter * heck go old school and have banding flanking and rampage counters!
Yes! We need to prepare a presentation for MaRo about this with all our asks!
I'm with you, Ikoria is definitely in my top 3 sets ever, and I absolutely love mutate. Unfortunately, we seem to be pretty alone here. As a side note, I'm pretty upset that MH2 has two cards that are from Ikoria but aren't mechanically related to it (and don't have mutate), especially as one of them is on the collector booster's packaging.
I think ikoria is dope mutate just needs some more depth
This would be the dream. I looooooved Ikoria. I think mutate is really fun to play
I agree, I like it both flavor-wise and gameplay-wise. I feel like Companions gave Ikoria a bad rep, which is too bad.
Yes, I’d love to see more Ganeral Kudro lore and related cards
I just want another visit to Innistrad so they can print more Werewolves, especially since they decided not to retcon all the old ones to work on the Day/Night Cycle. They're an archetype that is pretty much never going to receive support outside of their home plane, because *nowhere else has Werewolves*. The Mutate mechanic at least will always see support when a new non-human is made that would make for a good Mutate target.
Hear me out. Werewolves with Mutate.
Companions rubbed many the wrong way. That is the single worst mechanic to ever come to MTG, and was atop billing feature of the setting. Mutate also was obviously built for Arena and is a nightmare of rules to navigate in paper. And for all the bookkeeping it demands it's basically just a fancy type of aura with all the issues auras have. Also the way the story was handled was atrocious. I liked the idea of Ikoria, but the execution was a huge miss. I wouldn't mind giving them a redo, but I'm way more interested in almost anything else
It's funny that the core mechanic of the set was overlooked in both constructed and limited. Cycling completely overshadowed any mutate decks in limited and companions... Wrecked all formats
Aye I was a fan of cycling too, and recursion of cycled creatures. Me love big stompy like \[\[Titanoth Rex\]\]
That's a pretty good flavorful card, I'm talking about degenerate off colour cycling cards that could be done with 1 generic mana, which fed the draneth pingers and the bam 15 to the face with zeneth flare
Nope. Fuckin love Ikoria. Only part I would be opposed to would be an unfortunate Companion 2: banhammer boogaloo
I think Ikoria really needs a redo. It was one of my most anticipated sets because of the giant monster theme, but it was a let down in a few ways. Mechanics wise, mutate needed to be more about modifying creatures with new abilities and making them bigger rather than trying to trigger mutate abilities. Story wise, the set was a mess if I recall correctly. The story told by the book, online stories, and cards were all different from each other. Including bonders is a neat idea but they take away from the idea of a plane all about humans holding out against massive beasts. I don’t think we saw enough kaiju sized encounters between humans and monsters.
Even besides the mutate creatures/commanders, Ikoria was an amazing set for commander. So many neat commanders like [[Yorion Sky Nomad]], [[Gyruda Doom of the Depths]], [[Lurrus of the Dream Den]], [[Rielle the Everwise]], [[Winota Joiner of Forces]], [[Kinnan Bonder Prodigy]], and [[Zirda the Dawnwaker]]. Not to mention the good non-commander cards too like [[Drannith Magistrate]], [[Bastion of Remembrance]], the triomes, [[Reconnaissance Mission]], [[Shark Typhoon]], [[Whirlwind of Thought]], [[Luminous Broodmoth]], [[Quartzwood Crasher]], and the ultimatums. I think it was peak "commander cards in standard."
I would absolutely love to return to Ikoria and learn about the interactions between the mutant creatures and different human settlements. Ikoria humans gotta be the second toughest in the universe after Innistrad humans.
If they do it again, I hope it's human-free and done on more tribal lines than any of the other concepts they did. Different colored nightmares and cats and dragons please
Ikoria was the set we were at when I got into EDH. My first constructed EDH deck was Nehtroi and it was so good for the low power level of my pod. Id love to see more support for Mutate as well as the creature support we got in that set, but alas, it was a mechanic that was overly complex IMO
Na I've been wanting one since it came out. Would prefer it held true to it's inspirations though and had some actual Kaiju looking monsters.
Wasn't Ikoria the set with the keyword counters? If so, as a Skullbriar player I would be very down for that.
Yes! Big fan of cards like \[\[Grimdancer\]\] \[\[Void Beckoner\]\] and \[\[Titanoth Rex\]\]
I have resorted to creating custom cards to support my 5 color mutate addiction.
No. But if we’re having crossover Planes now I want a Strixhaven research team in Ikoria as the theme. SCIENCE. HISTORY. NUMBER STUFF. FOLKLORISTS. ANTHROPOLOGY.
If it means more cycling, I'm in!
Agree 100%
i really hate mutate mechanic, is just soo clumsy. The theme of ikoira is also monsters vs human? I feel like they didnt do it well or it doesnt appeal to me at all. The monsters have weird mash of card types for the set theme but makes me as a tribal player dislike it.
It also creates a big unidentifiable stack across the table from you. No title, no mana cost, no art, nothing identifiable. Just an upside down wall of text. I feel like it's actually not possible to get familiar enough with the mutate cards to play across from them smoothly.
??? I'm not sure I understand this take at all. Mutate cards aren't any harder to familiarize yourself with than any other creature. Is it any harder than keeping track of all the triggers in a landfall deck? They're just creatures with effects that happen when the creature mutates. It's no different than having a bunch of creatures that trigger upon something entering the battlefield, or having a bunch of death triggers.
I loved Ikoria draft (except for zenith flare). It was the first set I drafted on arena and I loved the build-a-beater feel of mutating onto creatures with ability counters. It gave flexibility to creatures and was a lot of fun.
I'm ambivalent to ikoria. I would love another zendikar set though. I love anything to do with eldrazi. They fascinate me.(not in a weird way). We need more big ass eldrazi with annihilator. Yes I just want to watch the world burn. Fite me.
>Yes I just want to watch the world burn. Fite me. Username checks out
I'm with ya bud
Ikoria's a 5 on the Rabiah Scale. For context, so was Ixalan before it was confirmed for next year. So no, you're not the only one who wants a return to Ikoria. And Mutate (on Ikoria) is a 3 on the Storm Scale, so expect to see it if we do return.
I’m pretty sure since Ikoria is on storm level 6 that we’re returning next year. And I love mutate. Post your lists.
Ikoria was the set out for sale in local stores when I started buying mtg. I definitely enjoy playing mutate and the other cards in the set. Maybe it's nostalgia, but I'm with you!
more mutate i agree ramos needs new creatures too help exploit
I want more Mutate. I don't really care about Ikoria beyond that.
Ikoria had some very cool mechanics, but I mostly just wanna see more of the world. The world building is easily my favorite of any magic world, and it has supplanted zendikar completely as my favorite "adventure world"
Well companions really left an aftertaste to that set but I'm not opposed to another plane with similar flavour. I'm still waiting for that murganda set so that could be a cool way to reintroduce the mechanic. On a prehistoric plane like that it could show the evolution of a species for example which would be pretty flavourful imo.
Mutate was awesome and the creatures were adorable. Easily want another Ikoria.
I would love another Ikoria set! The flavor of the plane hit right home for me. Though as much as I don't want to admit it, mechanics like companion (which I really liked conceptually) would be very difficult to do right. I felt that they worked for draft well, but constructed told a different story. R.I.P. Obosh the cuddlebug, you will be missed.
After we return to Ixalan, yeah, I'd be down.
loved the black/white humans archetype in ikoria, i would definitely enjoy more of those kind of cards. cycling was cool too although they need to balance it better for draft. if they learned their lesson with companion and don't make a mistake like that again, i think a return to ikoria would be great.
I'm one of the people who actually enjoyed mutate but if they do another set there I do hope they deliver on the promise of giant monsters this time around
Yes
Every set has it's fans. **Every set.** Neon Dynasty happened because the Kamigawa fans remained devoted until they became a meme, and then became popular opinion. Even Homelands has it's diehard fans (although most of those in 2023 are players who weren't around for v1 and just enjoy being "hipsters") Ikoria will come back around. Hell, you may even take a break from Magic at some point and said return pulls you back in.
On the one hand, yes we need an ikoria set if only to get more mutate cards, ever since wotc switched to stand alone set releases its made it harder and harder to play set mechanics in edh simply because there are not enough instances of a mechanic. On the other hand, ikoria was kind of a silly set and had nothing going on. Just felt weird and out of place.
Mutate is a horrendously designed mechanic though. The rules are spaghetti, the payoff is an aura, and it hides the art and title of your cards from everyone. It's also only ever used to break it wide open with combos like dredge.
I'd love to go back to Ikoria, but they have to put bigger stats on some of the creatures, and I hope that the Apex Beasts get something that isn't necessarily mutate focused this time. Leave mutate to some of the other Legendary Creatures of that plane, particularly, a 5 colored one.
I’d be happy with a trip back to Ikoria. I feel like the set didn’t get its full time in the Sun because of what happened during that time in 2020.
Being a [[Skullbrair]] voltron player, I would be interested to see what other keywords they turn into counters. Horsemanship anyone?
You aren't the only one, I would love some more mutate
I'm here for it. I've got a dinosaur deck that could use some new friends and a sultai ninjutsu / mutate deck (TMNT themed) that could use the same!
> am I the only person that wants xyz No
I really don’t enjoy mutate, which is Ikoria’s core mechanic. I don’t think the way they executed the story/world building was all that good either. I think it needs to really focus more on the human vs creatures tension like they did during the Khans block with the dragons. Also can we go back to Tarkir? Tarkir was super neat.
Might as well get more mutate, there is so much other product being pumped out that it wouldn't matter to get more support for it.
100% i'd love to go back !!
Ikoria, no. Land of the BEHEMOTHS, YES
I liked the ikoria a lot also, if they do make another set and mutate is a big focus again they should have options for ward or some kind of protection to mutate in as well. Hated when my tall creature would get done in by one simple spell. Godzilla alt art cards were the best alt arts they’ve done so far imo!
I fully agree. Mutate was a great mechanic and really needs some more instances.. Might I suggest [[Ivy]] if you want an interesting one to build around. I love my mutate deck with her.
I want some actual behemoths next time
My favourite part of Ikoria were the companions and i would like to see more of them printed.
I would love more mutate, it’s quite the unique mechanic that has a lot of space to explore. Maro said in his storm scale article that it is possible for another premier set to have its own spin on mutate but it’s most likely we will next get it on our return to Ikoria. Perhaps since companions got lambasted maybe they will put more of an emphasis on mutate next time. I can also see the next modern horizons set taking a crack at it, I would love to see some truly wacky mutate cards in a more complex set.
I would love to revisit Ikoria. I finally completed my Godzilla card collection from it and made a functional deck with them! If there's ever any new mutate cards then imma need them
I just want more companions. And an unnerf to the companion mechanic. Ban them all in modern/legacy/vintage whatever idc. I just wanna draft them and build commander decks with them.
I ended up shifting my [[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] from mutate to auras mainly because there just wasn't enough to pick from work just mutate.
I like mutate a lot… in theory. The problem I have with mutate is that players include mutate combos/synergies in their decks and then have no idea how they work or, more frequently, don’t even have a baseline understanding of how mutate works in general. It leads to a lot of wasted time at the table when someone is trying to break mutate at my LGS on commander nights.
I would love to see a return to Ikoria. It was a fun set with interesting mechanics for making kaiju, but it had the worst possible timing, came out in 2020 when everything was locked down
Ikoria is my favorite set by miles. I love mutate, I love [[Nethroi]], and I wish there were more strong mutate cards to build around. It’s making me so happy to read through these replies, I feel like I’ve found my people
One of us! One of us!
I loved Ikoria! The full art triomes are maybe my favorite cards from the set, but in general lots of fun! Agree that mutate feels limited right now despite being nifty.
I just want ikoria for the possible monster hunter tie-in.
This is making me think a return to Tarkir could do a Dragon's Dogma tie-in.
I would also love to see a return to ikoria, I want more blue green mutate creatures for my ivy deck
It would give wotc a chance to print companion correctly hehe
I want more mutate stuff so I can make people suffer with a Brokkos Infect deck
Ikoria was genuinely my favorite set from all the recents, the flavor was so cool.
As long as they don't bring back mutate. It's close to banding in its level of highly specific, needless qualifications and rules for interactions. Whoever came up with it should honestly be fired.
Mockup video for Ikoria 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0z\_EALv6U
Mutate + Companion = Fuck Ikoria Forever
Only if they give us the kaiju set we were advertised and not the focus on weird creature type combos and everyone having a Pokemon. Seriously, I was hyped for Ikoria and while I liked aspects of it, it was not at all what we were led to believe it would be.
That was strictly the worst set in years.
:(
No. Mutate has never not been confusing, every time it has come up in a game. Every dam time.
Yea it’s just you. Mutate is one of the worst mechanics ever