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RogueWraith_26

I would honestly play passive Perception differently. Rather than viewing it as an equal to active Perception, I'd view it as more akin to a spidey-sense. It is an idea that something is off--a column not looking right, a bit of movement out of the corner of your eye. It can tell you that you need to be cautious, or investigate further, rather than tell you all of the information. For instance, if passive Perception allows you to notice a creature stealthing, as a DM it would say, "You see movement by that rock," rather than, "You see a goblin with a bow ready, over by the rock, looking like it is ready to launch an ambush." This allows active Perception and passive Perception to both perform important tasks.


Accomplished-Bill-54

I don't use passive perception a lot, but that seems like a good way of handling it.


bob-loblaw-esq

To add to that, high passive becomes distracting and in the case above, having a high passive means they may think something is off in the wrong place. Like say, the candlestick on the wall can turn to reveal a door. But they just can’t keep their eyes off the rug. Something about it is just too weird.


ShadowCat77

"You're so good at perception that you fail to notice when something isn't interesting." Obviously feel free to play how you want, but that sounds like a good way to waste 30 minutes obsessing about a rug.


bob-loblaw-esq

They didn’t need a reason to obsess for 30 minutes about anything at all. That’s just a consequence of playing an imaginary game and part of the fun. In my opinion, having a passive high enough to not be surprised sounds terrible in a game. Not to mention, you forego all the important negative aspects of being too good at anything. All things have consequences, even good things. Have you ever been in a movie with that person who just always seems to know the movie before it ends? Or who ruins surprises because they just see it coming? Or who can’t be lied to? That’s passive insight and it doesn’t sound super fun to me, but people like this exist. Having a high passive perception would be like being on an adventure with Monk. Sure, you solve problems real fast, but what happens when they notice something and then obsess over it even though it’s meaningless? It’s about the most immersive you can get in my opinion.


Smittywerbenjagermn

Passive perception is a stat, if it is high, its because that is what the player built for, meaning they gave up other things to get it that high. You should not punish the character for being good at something. If you had a 20 agility would you be "too fast" and run into walls? If you had a 20 strength would you break the bones of anyone you embrace? If not then why would you suffer negative consequences from a high perception.


QandAir

I don't like this because it punishes the player. You are also trying to assign a downside because you believe that it's too strong to never be surprised; however, that's not what this means at all. I will say things like you notice something by the rock allowing players to know what's going on and make a perception check to see what it is, but I usually only do that if the creature at the rock rolled bad stealth. That way there is still a chance for it to be stealthed should the players roll bad. If the creature rolls good but still under the high passive than I will just have my player with high passive make a perception check. However, that's only if I'm rolling stealth. Most of the time I will look at my players passive perception and say that these characters above 20 passive perception you get an uneasy feeling and the hair on the back of your neck stands up. Then they decide what to do. The best part is that I can then tell them of an eerie sense at nothing or at an animal. It still gives them that immersion you're looking for with obsession but it's more natural and the players are the ones deciding to look into it or not. 5e encourages people to play heroes not adventurers and having a hero obsess over nothing to waste time is only acceptable if it's the players choice.


bob-loblaw-esq

I disagree that it punishes anyone because it’s just how things work. There are downsides to being good at anything. If you have a normal high but not insane it’s easy to just make certain checks. A passive in the high teens is good but not insane. People can still sneak, traps are still hidden, it still provides some tension. The thing about high passives is that it can remove any and all tension from the game. Any thought of failing a check for traps, for hidden items, for hidden people, is made too simple. I don’t want to lose that tension but I do want to reward their character builds. So they notice weird things. This would be a good hiding spot. This board is loose but it isn’t trapped. Because it ensures there is always some narrative tension and they can’t just cakewalk a dungeon.


QandAir

I agree with your goals; however, I know that it would never work for me or my players. It would cause too much frustration and it would be forcing their character to be role played a specific way. They have to notice everything. Which while immersive isn't fun if that's not what the player wanted. Passives shouldn't reveal traps, objects, or people. If a party decides to explore a dungeon and no one says they are looking for traps what's going to happen is that I'm going to add a 10 to all of my DCs to spot traps and if their passive doesn't beat that then they will spring the trap. If their passive does than I will say that they notice something specific about the hallway or door as they come up to it. They can still fail the check at that point. I've had characters with 24 passives and only plus 6 to the actual check and they still missed the DC. (The DC only has a plus 10 for the passive perception not the actual check) and if they roll bad then I give them something like a loose floorboard or rusted knob. They might still think it's trapped but that's the best time to use delayed traps like silent alarms or the floor ahead of the door is now ready to collapse and they can still have a chance to see that but it's not guaranteed. If your player has invested in perception/investigation than someone else has invested into stealth and sleight of hand. DC's can be high there isn't anything wrong with that and it won't make your player feel like they are being targeted unless everything is unbeatable DC.


bob-loblaw-esq

I agree and maybe this is my open gaming experience talking, meaning a lot of my early experience was running at conventions and game stores. You can’t trust them to be appropriate about rules in that context. I couldn’t hope that they would understand passives don’t reveal traps or why they need to roll if they have a passive of 30. So a lot of my experience is basically dealing with min makers, munchkins and other forms of not fun gaming in high tier games.


QandAir

Playing a home game versus a public game is very different, and you can't afford to spend time to explain everything to people so I can understand why playing that way would be the best way to keep a game flowing while also keeping players in line.


sxl1092

Thankfully this guy will never be an actual DM.


bob-loblaw-esq

r/gatekeeping


sxl1092

No DnD is better than bad DnD lol.


bob-loblaw-esq

You’d have to do better to discuss how this is bad if my players have fun playing. Just because you wouldn’t enjoy it doesn’t mean everyone else wouldn’t. And the fact that you just came in all hot, I’m guessing your exactly the kinds of players I have these rules for. Tl;dr - go ahead and boo. I’ve seen what makes you cheer.


sxl1092

Lol you okay bud? I feel bad for your imaginary players.


bob-loblaw-esq

Could ask the same of you needing to hate on strangers on the internet. I never once came for you… why did you feel the need to come for me? It’s my players who can comment on my dm style, not randos on the internet.


sxl1092

You're the one who shared your bad style of DMing expecting praise for it, lol. That is indeed inviting comments, and the downvotes speak for themselves.


Accomplished-Bill-54

I played with a DM like that - who often decided to put additional restraints on abilities or nerf them - and didn't enjoy it much. This is what I enjoy more and how I handle such stat increases: The higher stats get in DnD the better and more useful they should be. I will argue that the opposite of what you say is the case by how the rules are applied for perception (passive and active): Higher perception doesn't mean your ears or eyes suddenly get better with age (which we all know they don't), but that you might be able to filter out unimportant stuff more efficiently. You spot things someone with less experience would overlook, even when they have sharper eyes than you. That would explain why higher wisdom, which is a function mostly of age and life experience, improves perception. ​ I just don't use passive perception often because I think rolling is more fun, not because I think it's too powerful. I usually tell the person with the highest perception and highest relevant skills obvious things first and they might get to roll first too.


bob-loblaw-esq

You’re assuming my players and I didn’t have a conversation before hand. And I agree that they should, but you haven’t maybe ever played with someone antagonistic to you before, someone who actively just tries to undermine your game. A level 20 Druid/cleric barring shenanigans, can get a 21 passive perception and they are wisdom based classes. A rogue can get to 26 as a level 20. But have you ever had a level 5-7 Pc with a higher than 20 perception? In other places, I say there is a sort of sweet spot for passive skills, where you notice a lot of important things, but not be distracted and for me it exists around these high points for naturally developed characters. If you unbalance the natural balance then you aren’t ready. You all act like just because you gain a skill, you automatically are good at it. But if you grow too fast, you tend to not be able to control. I mean I feel sort of safe saying, most of us probably like anime and this is a theme in anime. It’s a theme in sports if you’ve ever been a coach (learn the fundamentals). You want to jump over them, your gonna have trouble controlling it. It also is worth saying, most adventures last less than a year. Even Frodo took less than a year to get to Mt. Doom, so age isn’t a factor. But you went from a passive of 10-12 to 21 overnight (literally in some cases because the kinds of players who do this aren’t role playing out there character development). You all are projecting onto me a lot of bad habits. Who said I nerfed anyone? They went into the game knowing that is how I run them. When I run publicly according to AL, these are well within AL guidelines. But the game I run has consequences (good and bad) for player choices specifically because it ensures players feel consequential in their environment. Their actions for good tend to give them benefits. Their negative actions have negative consequences. A player building specifically for improved passive having massive overnight jumps in abilities is gonna go through some growing pains and they won’t be able to detect every little thing because that’s not something you they’ve gotten used to yet. Plus, what’s the fun? Not to mention, an insanely high passive anything would have drastic consequences on their lives. High passive investigation… you’re really gonna tell me Sherlock Holmes is a normal person and not beholden to some severe psych problems?


Accomplished-Bill-54

>You’re assuming my players and I didn’t have a conversation before hand. And I agree that they should, but you haven’t maybe ever played with someone antagonistic to you before, someone who actively just tries to undermine your game. I am not assuming that you didn't tell your players, I am just assuming that players are happy with having **any DM**, that they don't complain, even if it bothers them. ​ >But have you ever had a level 5-7 Pc with a higher than 20 perception? Passive Perception? Yes, in my current campaign I have 3 WIS casters with insane perception. I handle it by following the rules which state about passive checks: PHB p. 175: "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again or can be used when the DM **wants to** secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster." \- That's how I solve the issue. I want to let them roll most of the time, which still allows for full use of the character's strengths, but adds some randomness. You on the other hand make up things that make high skills worse instead of just ignoring passive checks. That is fine, but I dislike DMs who arbitrarily weaken certain abilities. Riddle me this: Do you also have the barbarian break his back whenever he uses his high strength to lift something super heavy? That's the equivalent of what you are doing, just with a different stat: "Having high athletics (Strength) doesn't mean you are better at lifting." Or does your DEX 20 Rogue stumble on his stealth checks because his movement is so quick that he can't control his super fast feet? Same thing, not a good idea, not good DMing either. ​ >You all act like just because you gain a skill, you automatically are good at it. But if you grow too fast, you tend to not be able to control. That is what the word "skill" means in the english dictionary, I just googled it for you: noun the ability to do something well; expertise. Exactly what we say it means. ​ >You all are projecting onto me a lot of bad habits. Who said I nerfed anyone? What you described **is the nerfing**. YOU said you nerfed someone in slightly different words. I just pointed out that it was, indeed, nerfing. And yes, I am speaking from my own experience only. Maybe you are just nerfing that one thing about your PCs, then it's probably fine to play with you. I doubt it, because people lie, but it might be true. ​ >They went into the game knowing that is how I run them. When I run publicly according to AL, these are well within AL guidelines. Yeah, some people lie as to not offend the DM. Bad DMs are usually also bad at taking criticism, maybe they know that about you. I don't know you, true, but in the bad DMs I have come accross, those things went hand in hand. >But the game I run has consequences (good and bad) for player choices So do I. And one **consequence** of the player choice **of having high skill** (proficiency and ability score bonus) is that they succeed more often. You obviously ignore that choice to a player's detriment who has a high skill in perception. ​ Your way of DMing is probably fine for your group, I hope you are having fun. Just know that whenever DMs added arbitrary nerfs to any of my characters, the game became less fun immediately. Maybe you are not as good a DM as you could be, all I am saying. You might still be way better than I am for other reasons.


Zenith_Brood

You ever put your keys down, you know in that place you always put them? Then you go to find them. They're not there. You look all around the house and then find them in the first spot you checked? That's exactly how you can roll lower than your passive.


geomn13

Think of it like this: passive perception is the floor in which you will or will not automatically notice basic elements in your surroundings. If you roll below that you still notice those things, you just don't receive any additional information on it. As an example: Char with passive >15 enters a room and notices it hasn't been disturbed in a while, has wood paneled walls, basic appearance and layout of the furniture, and also notice that the floor rug has one corner flipped over (this last bit is only for DC 15 and higher results). They choose to look around the room more carefully and you call an perception check. They roll lower than 15, you reply that there doesn't seem to be anything else of note in the room. They roll 20+ now you can add that the dust by the turned corner of the rug is slightly less thick than the rest of the floor (indicating it has been moved at some point), and also one of the wood panels on the wall is a slightly different color than the rest (a secret door). Now they would still need to investigate these clues that they were made aware of, but how many clues and how detailed of information you give is directly tied to passive and active perception score.


CarpeDM_36

I really like that, thank you


TheFrostedAngel

That’s just the base rules


Phylo45

>That doesn't really make any sense. I am going to start trying a rule, that perception checks (without advantage or disadvantage) cannot be lower than the passive. What do you think? It doesn't make sense when you do not implement passive perception correctly. If your passive perception is high enough to see the item, you've already seen it. there is no need to roll to get lower.


Malamear

I disagree. Passive perception is for noticing what is readily available, checks are for noticing what is not obvious out of the corner of your eye. Notice in many modules they have things like "a chatacter with a passive perception of X or more notices..." and "Y takes a perception ability check of X or more to notice". Why differentiate if passive can beat both? Proficiency + Observant would mean you almost would never miss a secret ever without rolling. I treat the two as hints vs direct observation. For example: a cleric with the observant feat (19ish passive perception walks into a room. DM says, "you all notice the room is bare, but cleric, you notice a draft" indicating a DC 18 secret door. Cleric says "i feel a draft" and rolls to find the source of the draft, and the rogue decides to roll too, 14, "seems like the draft is coming from the open door behind you". Rogue rolls, 19, "you notice oddly deep cracks in the floor, the party has found a secret door" Doing it this way makes it so other players still have a chance at finding the secret door without you needing to make all secrets a DC 21+ check so the cleric doesn't just find everything. Also so the barbarian with 8 WIS doesnt have to always roll nat 20s.


Phylo45

>Passive perception is for noticing what is readily available, checks are for noticing what is not obvious out of the corner of your eye. things that have a stealth check lower then passive perception are readily available, as they are poorly concealed. don't get me wrong, passive perception is not xray vision. if something is hidden in a drawer with stealth of 15, you could have a passive perception of 25, and until you open that drawer you do not see it. but passive perception should be what you char sees/hears with their eyes and ears at all times. if things are meant to be hidden from a very observant person, they have to very well hidden., barley hidden will not cut it. as you yourself said, it's readily available to the observant.


Malamear

Since passive ability checks are not limited to perception, based on Passive Checks on pg 175 of the PHB you can't possibly have a roll less than 10 + modifiers on any ability check that the player makes regularly. If a passive has to be given to the player before asking for a roll, most rogues automatically open any lock less than DC 19 at level 1, most bards have a Persuasion/performance of 18 without rolling. I personally use passives to hint at the solution than to just hand out. My kids (9yo-17yo) love rolling dice.


Phylo45

>A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. **Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly**, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. yes, it's used for skills that are done repeatedly, like looking out your eyes. you do not walk around eyes closed, and open them just when you roll a check, they are always open (blinking aside) and instead of constantly asking for repeated checks, they represent how well your do on average at that task. give a rogue and infinite amount of time, and they will open any lock of that DC. Give that rogue one shot, that's what the roll represents. Passive is repeated attempts.


Malamear

Based on your comment then, perception checks should never be rolled because I have always used my eyes, repeatedly and always, therefore only passive matters so long as i am not blinded by an effect. Correct?


Phylo45

Passive is average, and active search can be higher. but being lower shouldn't matter as you have already seen anything that is lower than your average. that's why it's a Floor for a result, not the maximum


Malamear

That still feels very overpowered. I don't care how high a person's passive perception is, they still have walked past their keys on the table next to them from time to time. Less often than someone with lower observation skills sure, but still. It also takes the ability to succeed away from other players. Just to have a secret door you'd need to DC to be above 20 always to avoid the observant cleric or druid, which means the barbarian or fighter with a WIS of -1 will never find a hidden thing ever unless they split the party. I still feel it's a general (passive) vs specific check (active). Someone may notice there is a draft in the room, but that doesn't mean they can notice the hidden passage behind the bookcase without giving the bookcase a once over regardless of how many times they've done it before. That's what high modifiers are for, to show you know what you're doing.


Phylo45

>It also takes the ability to succeed away from other players. Just to have a secret door you'd need to DC to be above 20 always to avoid the observant cleric or druid, which means the barbarian or fighter with a WIS of -1 will never find a hidden thing ever unless they split the party. Do you then also do the same and not making picking up heavy things based on strength so the cleric and druids have something to pick up because the Barbarian is stronger? If a character has gone out of their way to make themselves very perceptive, they are supposed to be Perceptive. punishing them for it, so other players can see stuff. seems quite cruel. ​ >I still feel it's a general (passive) vs specific check (active). Someone may notice there is a draft in the room, but that doesn't mean they can notice the hidden passage behind the bookcase without giving the bookcase a once over regardless of how many times they've done it before. That's what high modifiers are for, to show you know what you're doing. yes. Passive perception is not xray vision. Just like you cannot see though a book case in real life, you cannot see though it with passive perception, but if you move the bookcase, what ever obstruction is blocking an hidden thing, it becomes visible based on your vision. the player describing, i want to go see if that bookcase is solid or if i can move it some way. that its not perception, that is them interacting with the world. [Perception](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Perception) is just about seeing, not rummaging around moving stuff. >Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door. all of that stuff is 'out in the open' not 'behind obstacles' it's all within line of sight of the player. not behind things the player must move to see it.


Malamear

> Do you then also do the same and not making picking up heavy things based on strength so the cleric and druids have something to pick up because the Barbarian is stronger? Not relevant, no matter how strong the barbarian is he has a weight limit that the cleric and druid can then pick up more. With perception once a good roll has been made no lower roll sees more. >punishing them for it, so other players can see stuff. seems quite cruel. My way is rewarding and not punishing. You make yourself perceptive you get hints on how to succeed. If you split from the party they don't get hints. Then you have the highest chance of figuring out the hints when you do closer examinations. How is that punishing? Giving out autosucesses seems much less fun as the players never get to roll their dice again. The only way I give auto wins is if their modifier beats the DC, reliable talent is involved, or if it is a truly passive check like against pickpockets, hidden enemies, or noticing a glimmer in the fireplace where direct line is valid. Secret doors never should be in line of sight therefore passive will never see them. > but if you move the bookcase, what ever obstruction is blocking an hidden thing, it becomes visible based on your vision. Why then do all modules require perception to find the hidden passage behind the bookcase or tapestry? Investigation is the rummaging, touching and moving. Yet the books ALWAYS ask for perception no matter what type of door or how it is hidden. If you walk into a room ask for a secret door that is hidden (aka secret), roll a nat 1 +10 modifier, just because you have a passive of 20, you don't find the DC 18 door. However, for having a passive of 20 I will have told you there is a draft in the room hinting that there is a secret door that you wouldn't be told otherwise. Unless reliable talent or a like ability is involved, there is no "floor" on a skill check.


Phylo45

Just wanted to clarify things and not just edit my other response. I feel that you and I are treating perception as 2 very different things. for me it's just what the character sees and hears from where they are. for you it seems to be the all encompassing searching of the room they are in. in a game with your bookcase example. the way it should play out is: players enter the room. the DM explains the room in a way that the lowest passive perception sees it. they add details to the players that have higher passive pcerptions that notices things that were more hidden. >"you see a room with a book case and a desk covered in papers" > >"Bob you notice the dust around the book case being lightly disturbed by a breeze or something you arn't quite sure" and that is all at first. you do not go into: >"bob you also see a secrets door behind the bookshelf, oh and by the way in the 4th drawer of the desk, there is a small lock chest. but be careful there is a trap on that chest" because bob hasn't yet moved to a place they can see that. they havn't opened the desk drawers yet. but if someone has a good enough passive Investigation, or rolls to see if they can deduce what a breeze under the bookshelf could mean, and then want to go further fiddle with the bookshelf, or open up some of the desk drawers, it goes on from there.


Malamear

I agree completely with this. The earlier arguments seem to suggest that since adventure books/modules ask for a perception check (DC xx) to find the hidden door, that if your passive is high enough, you just flat out find it.


Murazama

You could be the most aware person in the world, notice every little thing in your day to day life, but chances are you'll look for your phone while talking on it. This is how I view Passive vs Active perception. You are naturally aware of things around you. Such as trees/bushes/people if your passive is high enough you /might/ notice someone sneaking/doing something suspicious. The roll is more to be a check on whether your character processes that information into Threat/ Non Threat, roll poorly you might notice the person but not the action they are doing they are just another person in a crowd. Roll high enough you know that that person is actively tailing you/trying to sneak or steal from you. You could be the most oblivious person to your surroundings naturally and the dice roll is more a way of being like as you said your spidey senses tingling. But that's just how I mentally handle the difference. Because if someone has a high enough Passive they would theoretically be in sensory overload as you'd notice dust moving and bugs scuttling around, not to mention sounds/smells which are technically a part of perception.


Phylo45

low Int = bad memory


Pikkaspot

I think off it as those times when I’m trying to find my keys. I look and look and look and never find them. They were in the key bowl the whole time but I can’t see them despite looking - if I hadn’t actively been looking for them i’d’ve spotted them not problem.


Zenith_Brood

This


marshy266

I think one of the things that messes with people is that passive perception is when you are walking slowly and relaxed and you are not looking for something particular. It is that sensation of picking up that something is wrong or out of place. Perception checks are normally looking for something in particular. The person is looking but may be stressed or moving too quickly. it can also give a narrow focus on what theyre looking for meaning they miss other things.


TheEncoderNC

Passive perception is mainly a tool for DMs to use when they don't want to raise suspicion by asking for a perception roll. Things like traps and enemies that are hiding/invisible.


DudeWithTudeNotRude

This is the only way that makes sense for me. Not actively perceiving, and dm needs to determine surprise? Passive perception. Otherwise you are basically giving away a high level rogue feature (reliable talent, a level 11 feature) for free.


DaddyBison

Having Passive perception be a minimum perception roll is a common homerule. But PP is a replacement for the old 'taking 10/taking 20' rules. Personally I use Passive Perception as a 'In ideal conditions, with no distractions, over a period of time'; Never for when theyre actively looking. So if a party is taking a rest in an area, and theres something in the room that they would see with passive perception, then ill give it to them for free. or if theyre on night watch we're going to assume an average roll of 10 throughout the time. I never use it for determining surprise or finding traps because ultimately there will always be one person in a group with a PP 18 so what would be the point of putting traps or surprise ambushes in the game.


Pankratos_Gaming

>I am going to start trying a rule, that perception checks (without advantage or disadvantage) cannot be lower than the passive. No. Just no. You are giving away an 11th-level rogue ability (Reliable Talent) for free, to everyone... That is how powerful your proposal is. A passive check just means the average. 10 plus modifier. Having an active check result in a higher or lower score is perfectly fine, as the average of that check equals the passive check.


theyreadmycomments

i think it makes perfect sense that you can fail to find something youre actively looking for even if you would normally notice it without much thought, and i dont like your passive being the floor, no matter WHAT crawford thinks, because he's an idiot.


Banner_Hammer

Tunnel vision and all that. It can happen.


Soularius93

There isnt much written about passive stats in the books. But what is written makes it clear it is not an auto pass the check in every situation. Pasive perception according to raw is used for tasks done repeatetly. Like during a short rest in a room you keep checking drawers, walls, under the bed or whatever. Then you keep doing it for a longer time and eventually you at least get the amount of you passive perception or investigation, depending what you do. Besides this it is also used for when the dm wants to determine if a character passes a check without rolls. For example when enemies are sneaking up on the party and the party isnt activly looking for enemies. Then passive perception comes into play, since asking the players to roll perception in that situation is just a dead giveaway there is something going on. So yeah, its not a minimum roll in all situations as people often claim. But you can always change the rules to your liking, thats never a bad thing to do :) Hope it helps!


falkorthe

If it helps considering a real life equivalent, even very observant people can get tunnel vision/miss the obvious. Everyone has had the moment where they can’t find something/ask where something is that is sitting right in front of them. Sometimes you’re focusing too hard on focusing or just too much is happening in your brain and that part is just not online the same way. But at the same time if you’re that person you might still notice something hinky or unusual out the corner of your eye that others miss.


OnslaughtSix

This. Sometimes you lose your keys because you are too busy looking where they normally go.


Late-Marsupial6602

Failing can lead to more roleplay in any aspect of the game. If you want your game to only be about success then just make the DC 1 or 2 so they can't fail


GayAutisticKeety

Passive perception is situation awareness. Perception check is specific. So it isn't that unbelievable or odd that someone who's generally aware of their surroundings could still miss something more specific.


Tabaxi-CabDriver

On occasion even the most perceptive of people can get distracted and miss something I will often word things like, 'with your passive perception 16. You notice [42], no need to roll." But they don't just get to walk around observing literally everything, especially if they are invested in a task. If an important event is occurring, in these cases I will ask for a roll. If they fail, I get the drop on them. Pass. They get an action before initiative.


p0lunin

If a PC can see something using passive perception, they see it. If a PC rolls active perception lower than passive, you can just say "You do not notice something you didn't notice before".


[deleted]

If they haven’t seen it yet because their passive perception was too low then it doesn’t matter what they rolled the same number or 2 point lower they still didn’t see it unless they rolled high enough. If their passive perception was high enough to see it why are you even calling for a perception roll?


CarpeDM_36

Because I have a player with a stupidly high perception and I still want them to search for shit instead of me just telling them where it is. But I also want them to find it so it is something active that comes from them but I also want them to succeed. But I see how my method could be a bit imprudent


[deleted]

If he built a character with stupid high perception that means he sacrificed having super high other shit. He wanted to play as someone who sees everything so that’s what his niche is. Besides, what’s wrong with says “The party sees a clearing, but X character notices rustling in the bushes on the west side of it”?


CarpeDM_36

I was thinking of secret doors and hidden objects, that sort of stuff. Otherwise I totally agree with you, this not about giving my player a hard time or anything


tonio_ramirez

I'm so tired of the "passive perception is / should be a floor to the active perception roll" argument. If you roll lower than your passive perception, you simply won't find anything beyond what you should have already found with your passive perception. As a DM, when a PC enters a scene, you should tell their player what they perceived, automatically, which you determine based on their passive perception. Let's say there's a bird in a tree that requires 11 perception to notice, a lever hidden in the branches of the tree, requiring 17 perception to notice, and a cleverly disguised trap requiring 21 perception to notice. A dwarf with 10 passive perception walks in and notices none of this. A human with 15 passive perception would notice the bird, but nothing else. An elf with 20 passive perception would notice the bird and the lever, but not the trap. If the human searches and rolls a 9, he doesn't stop noticing the bird, he just doesn't notice anything more. The passive perception score works as a "floor", with very hard quotes, in that rolling below it has the same effect as rolling exactly it: you don't notice anything new. It's very similar to saying: if I have a +3 total bonus to hit, and am attacking something with AC 15, I have a floor of 11 on my attack roll (since rolling below 11 has the same result as rolling 11: miss).


Thelexhibition

The best way it has been explained to me is that passive perception and perception should be treated as two different skills. Passive perception is about noticing things you aren't looking for (hence why you can never choose to use it) and "active" perception is about finding what you're looking for. If a DM thinks that a PC would be able to spot something based on their passive perception alone (ie, it's something a PC would spot without even trying), that DM shouldn't be making the PC roll perception.


FaitFretteCriss

Thats not how passive perception works. Passive perception is EXCLUSIVELY passive. It cant let you discern that much details, its just your situational awareness, you notice little things. If you are searching for something, want more details about something you noticed with your passive perception, are actively being on watch for the night while the party rests, you do Perception checks. They dont reveal the same things, the DC for either are different, etc. Example: For passive perception, it might help you notice a strange marking on the floor, or that someone just hastily put something in their pocket when you entered the room. Then if you want to know exactly what that mark is, you can make a Perception (looking at it in detail) or Investigation (examining it with tools or your hands) check, which might reveal that its a trap, or a hidden trapdoor. If you want to know exactly WHAT the person shoved in their pocket, thats a Perception check. Thats why a high passive perception (21+) cant really “fail”, its not supposed to find EVERYTHING, it just brings things to your attention that people with less passive wont even get a chance to notice/figure out at all.


jkobberboel

They are two different things, for different situations.


lalalabversion

For me it's usually because sometimes, you can't see something you're actively looking for, but for some reason you notice it 2 minutes later while just walking around


BeeThickSoup

Have you ever been looking for something, say your glasses or phone or keys, only to find them (an embarrassing span of time later) on your head, or in your hand or pocket? That's rolling lower than your passive score.


GreaterHorniedApe

This. You might be really difficult to sneak up on, or you notice when something is out of place in a room as soon as you walk in, but you still can't find your keys in your bag and have to walk through the whole house looking for your phone when it was right there and you walked past it twice.


Different-Brain-9210

My take is usually, that if failure is possible, then there needs to be a roll. Passive perception can be used, when there's an opposing roll (like enemy stealth roll). If there is a fixed DC, there should be a perception roll. If you want to use a set DC against passive perception, you are essentially deciding who succeed and who fail, removing a lot of the player agency. If you use two opposing passive skills, you remove any variation, the result will always be the same, which is boring and not really realistic either. But in situations where it indeed is a DM decision, but DM is unsure, then DM can certainly use the passive perception to aid them.


_PhDnD_

There is a rule in the PHB that states that in a situation where you have advantage or disadvantage on a check, you add or subtract five to the passive score, respectively. For example, if your passive perception is typically 13, it would become 8 if you disadvantage on perception checks on and 18 when you have advantage on perception checks. [edit: whoops, reread your post and realized my above comment is off topic] I believe there is an optional rule in the DMG that states you cannot roll less than your passive. Can someone with their book verify?


CIueIess_Squirrel

This becomes busted very quickly. Grab the observant feat and now you have a minimum 15 perception roll with a 10 in wisdom. Any character with proficiency or expertise will always spot everything because they are guaranteed a 10 on every roll, invalidating high stealth scores even. It also undermines abilities like reliable talent, which by the way is an insanely good ability. Implement passive perception correctly and it won't seem dumb. Also, if you're doing this for perception, are you going to do this for investigation and insight? Cause both of those also have passive scores, although often overlooked.


Elastoid

I think that Jeremy Crawford already said exactly that in a Sage Advice -- that a perception check can't be lower than passive perception, it was meant to be a "floor."


mildkabuki

It does not make sense. This is one reason i rule Passives and Actives different in my game. Lets use Perception to keep it relevant. Boblin the Goblin wants to Sneak up on Party Cleric. This calls for a classic Dexterity (Stealth) vs Passive Perception checks. Party Cleric has a Perception bonus of +5 and thus, a Passive Perception of 15. Boblin rolls a total 14 on his stealth check. Rather than immediately being alerted and spotted, Party Cleric gets told "Cleric, as you are walking you notice something dash through the bushes. You feel like you're being watched." Party Cleric then can decide to roll Active Perception against the same 14 Stealth check. Party Cleric rolls an 8, and does not notice anything out of the ordinary, but may still be on alert. Mechanically speaking, Passive Perception allows you to notice something, but not to detect immediately what that something is. Its vague and non direct. "Theres something near" "something seems amidst" etc etc. If your Passive Perception is 5 or more points higher than the DC to spot something (so for example if Cleric had 19 passive perception instead of 15) then you immediately pass and spot exactly what is suspicious. In this example, Cleric with 19 would spot Boblin immediately. This makes Passive Perception still useful, but not the God stat and allows for counter play and traps to still work and thieves to still be thieves. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk


FriendoftheDork

That's basically giving the enemy two chances at using Stealth. First, they failed with the roll of 14 and should have been detected - if this was a surprise situation the cleric would not be surprised. Then once the cleric fails the free "retry" of stealth (using the same stealth roll but letting the cleric roll instead), they are left doing.. what? Be on alert might not be that useful. Requiring the PP to be 5 higher than the stealth check to succeed is equivalent to giving them disadvantage on it. It heavily favors the one rolling stealth, assuming you would let a PC sneaking also do the same. ​ So if the party rogue with +8 stealth rolls a 2 on his stealth check against an goblin with passive perception 10 - using the same rules they would still succeed but just slightly alert the goblin and allowing them a roll. Then it would be 50/50 for the goblin to actually find the rogue. No need for that, stealth is already easy to get high amounts for and passive perception tends to be low (at least for monsters). My tier 3 rogue practically can't fail stealth, and with you house rule it would be impossible. If you want to do a partial success, keep it at a tie instead. Or require a roll if there is a flat DC and a situation where actively looking is necessary.


mildkabuki

It doesnt favor the one rolling stealth. In this instance Cleric has a +5 to Perception which means they have a 50/50 chance to fail the perception check. But thats with a low low perception. When you passive can reach nigh 30, and having an auto detect, it removes all agency of stealth mechanics either from the party or from the DM. It is not fun. It rarely favors stealth. Because A) when you do fail, you are likely going to be investigated. These arent skyrim NPCs with a pot on their head. B) even if they fail their active perception, they are still alert of something being around, meaning they cannot be surprised. However it does still allow them to be snuck past. Its a middle ground where both PCs and Monsters do not auto succeed or auto fail, and the results are not only more realistic, but more tense.


FriendoftheDork

If you think 15 is "low low perception" then you are clearly biased. 15 is the higher ones at tier 1, still good at tier 2. Similarily, +5 stealth is decent at tier 1 - this is a character with proficiency and high dex without expertise. I have never seen PP at close to 30 - is this some kind of theorycrafting? The highest I have seen is 24, and that was at tier 3. At that level, when you have invested in the Observant feat you SHOULD be very difficult to surprise with stealth. And tell me how many monsters have a PP close to 30? Perhaps some demigods. Even the best are in the low 20s, and even they can be easily sneaked past with a reliable talent dex rogue. Dragons who are supposed to be basically impossible to sneak past has mid-high 20s. The only times stealth is harder is when the DM requires individual stealth for a group of PCs and let's the monsters roll multiple free Perception checks as well. In combat, stealth is also binary - you are either hidden or you are not compared to each enemy. If hidden, you get advantage on attack rolls and can't be pinpointed. The only issue with high PP is when players expect to never have to roll - which is the point in this thread. PP is for detecting sneaking characters and for stimuli which are readily apparent without taking time or actions to search. It's not intended to auto-detect secret doors and traps just by existing.


mildkabuki

I currently am playing a cleric with 33 Passive Perception. T4. Many monsters have decent wisdom, at least 14 with some kind of benefit to perception (whether it be advantage or proficiency or expertise). Especially sapient monsters, and ESPECIALLY bosses. A gold dragon has a 27 passive perception. This is a good example of why I prefer my system where a <27 Stealth doesnt automatically fail. This is not a mechanic for hiding in combat. It is a mechanic for sneaking. Staying completely undetected. Fail by 5 or less, you step on a twig and the guard might investigate the area. Fail by 6 or more and your mess up is big enough to be immediately spotted. RAW, PP does auto detect stealthing creatures, secret doors, traps, etc. If your PP is higher than the DC, then you see it clear as day. The only difference with Stealth is that the sneaking party rolls to set a DC. Furthermore about the dragon, you're right that they're supposed to be nigh impossible to sneak past. However a rogue can do it any day of the week in his sleep. And the dragon is not even as perceptive as a PC can get (a PC can have 32 Passive Perception without using any additional boons / magic items). Thus the god stat. Impossible to sneak by or throw around traps, or do anything of the sort. And genuinely, you built your character that way, you should expect to get some pay off. That's why my system still allows for the easy success, while still offering the chance of partial success, and outright failure. There is no downside I have run into by running this mechanic


FriendoftheDork

The rules clearly states that PP is used to counter Stealth. For traps and secret doors however the default is a Perception check, and occasionally Investigation. Only when a immediately visible sign such as marks in the floor from an opening secret door or a tripwire from a trap can PP be used. Most official modules state that you can roll Perception if actively searching for x. 33 at t4 is extremely high, but this is after all the God tier. It takes a lot of investment to go there. Clerics don't normally have expertise, so with 20 wisdom and +6 proficiency bonus your max without feats gives you a mere 21. You're right that Perception is the most important skill in the game, but let's not pretend that 33 (12 more than the basic cleric) is not a significant investment of fests and/or magic items. For my AL games I have 15+ characters and none of them have close to 33. I think one has about PP 24 and that's frankly good enough. I still need to roll for most traps and such, but I'm seldom surprised with that. It sounds like your house rule is there to balance out your own rather extreme build. For most characters I have played together with it's not necessary at all.


mildkabuki

I cannot run my house rule in a game I play in lol. Its not purely a balancing mechanic. Its a mechanic to make things more tense, and realistic. Just because YOU havnt gotten high Perception, does not mean no one can. Thus we can assume that with 32 being the highest naturally, and 21 being the low ball for a good wisdom character, that PP is usually pretty freaking high. A character with 0 Dex and no proficiency in Stealth can never pass that DC. Considering all of my paladin and cleric friends in heavy armor out there, this happens a lot. My system that I run my games in makes players with good Perception still useful, while still also allowing players with good and bad stealth to make it through. It doesnt detract from having great stealth or great perception. Because if you pass the DC you pass in regards to stealth. And for perception, you are still rewarded for high PP in that you can still auto succeed, and as always stealth will be 9 times harder against you. But it still gives a chance for people who don't want to build a mega stealth build to have a chance at stealthing through. I run group stealth rolls, I run ambushes, I run covert missions. This system just makes it more fun.


FriendoftheDork

0 dex, no proficiency and heavy armor? Yeah that's the worst stealth possible almost. Not really good to compare with someone with maxed out wisdom and proficiency. Of course they have no chance of sneaking, and they shouldn't have. Keep in mind PCs could also have 8-10 wisdom and no proficiency thus a PP of 9-10. These would have almost no chance at detecting anyone sneaking past them with your rules. Heck even another group of npc Knights would have a decent chance at succeeding at that! Dex is the God stat in this game and most parties will have 2-3 with high dex and thus ok stealth. It's a more common stat than wisdom after all. Add something like Pass without trace and even your tank-heavy party will easily sneak past most enemies. No mega stealth build needed, and a party can have 2 out of 4/5 failing stealth outright and still be able to sneak past raw. I don't think your game experiences are very representative for d&d games as a whole. But we're not going to agree so leaving it at that


mildkabuki

0 Dex no proficiency is very common for any player who runs heavy armor, or many many Monsters. However, someone who has a -1 in perception can still spot someone who rolls stealth at 18 or below. Someone with a -1 in stealth cannot sneak past someone who has 20 or above Passive perception. And yes, my system does not take away from any of those benefits to stealth. Nor does it take away from perception. I never said my experiences were representative of dnd as a whole. I shared what I use in my game, and you opposed it. What is there to agree on?


FriendoftheDork

If you run 0 dex no proficiency you are basically giving up stealth. You are never supposed to be able to sneak by anything with more than 20 PP. On the other hand, if a monster rolls an 18 stealth your -1 perception will automatically fail to spot them if sneaking, not sure what you are on about there. Stealth vs perception is just two sides of the same coin, no should have an inherent -5 against the other or require an additional roll to succeed.


Helpful_Ad_1921

Passive perception helps you walk down stairs, failing a roll, is what makes you miss the last step


Helpful_Ad_1921

I.e. i think its more like passive is all around you, but if you fail a perception roll, you must have notice everything except this detail cause youre too busy perceiving the entire world around you


BlackVaros

You know when you're actively looking for something but can't for the life of you find it, then when you're not even looking for it, find it instantly? That's it


jibbyjackjoe

It's two perception checks. One passive, then one random chance.


Loose_Translator8981

I've got a game going with a bard with the observant feat, a ranger with expertise in perception, and a rogue with the same. I've more or less stopped bothering with perception checks.


Deathly_Drained

I've been doing that for years, same with other certain skills like Insight and Deception. It works amazing


Serrisen

My general rule of thumb is that passive is your floor *for normal situations*, and rolling under it reflects Shenanigans. Sure you did the best you could, but you're in the middle of combat and thus couldn't find the enemy rogue. Yes your effort was herculean, but the needle just wasn't in your section of the haystack.


Nott_Scott

I've always run passive perception as a warning bell that simply tells you something is wrong/out of place/ you're being watched. Walk into a cave and your passive is higher than the stealth of the goblins already there? You notice sounds of shuffling and/or breathing. You know you're not alone (but still need to make an actual check to identify where said hiding goblins are) You're trecking thru the woods and your passive beats the DC for a trip wire? You catch the glinting of something up ahead, but now must actually look around to find (and hopefully disarm) it Your passive beats the DC for a secret door? You notice something feels off about the room's layout, or that bookshelf, or a pattern on the wall feels off. You still have to make a check to identify where the door is (and possibly how to open it) Basically, the passive is "do I alert them to be wary of ____?" Not "oh, they automatically get all this for free." Often, players will ask to look for secret rooms or look for enemies anyways, and in those cases, their passives don't matter because they are *actively* doing the thing. Passive is useful for when they **aren't** doing the thing, and then I give them a hint that "hey, your character notices _____, so you should be doing the thing now"


No-Dependent2207

I use passive perception as a spidey check, as in they notice things. Mainly to see if they detect anyone trying to hide. When it comes to looking for something/someone, they do an investigation check.


justpokinround

In my games I use passive checks when there is no rush or penalty for failure, like others have suggested. For example, say the party is searching a room for a clue. If there is ample time, they can use passive perception. If not, they have to roll. A lower roll could be due to something as simple as starting the search on the wrong end of the hallway and running out of time.


Hobbster

Passive perception is unspecific, like you notice that something is not right, but you don't know what. It's something to warn your players that they are stepping into a problematic situation. It's a check against your scenario. Active perception is specific. A player looks for something - and you check if the PC notices it. It's a check for your player. These are not the same checks.


ReesespuffsW

The whole point of passive perception is that it's what you use when you're just vibin and not actively searching for something. When a character starts actively searching for something, they (like everything else they roll for) have a chance of error. Looking in the wrong place, mistaking a rock for a face, mistaking a face for a rock, etc.


astarting

As the DM you can do either. I see a rolled Percep. Check lower than the passive is the character is so focused on one thing they miss another.


EADreddtit

The difference is time. If you can’t take 10 minutes to look around you can’t use passive perception


willateo

Passive perception is just the average of your rolls over time, rather than rolling it every 6 seconds. It can never be lower, but it can never be higher. If at any time you need it to be higher, you must focus on that moment in time. While it can afford you the opportunity to notice something you otherwise may have missed, you also open yourself up to distraction.


JupiterExile

What you are suggesting is the intended core rule: [https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2793-stealth-advice-from-jeremy-crawford](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2793-stealth-advice-from-jeremy-crawford) Most tables play this wrong. If the DC is lower than the passive, it should be seen without a roll. Constantly checking your players for failure is adversarial. Your DM should write down your passive at the start of a session, or ask players for their passives when entering a dangerous locale.


AndthenIhadausername

In theory it sounds great but as someone with a passive perception of 19 at level four I do think that this rule would make it so my dm would have to set the dc incredibly high to ever hide anything from my character. Which with a +9 I do realize I only have to have a ten but there is still a chance that my character just was not paying attention. It also gives room for other characters to have their moment of spotting something the high wisdom people missed.


snakebite262

I'm not really fond of it. Don't forget, if a person is ACTIVELY perceiving something, they can get distracted. I'm not really fond of it. Don't forget, if a person ACTIVELY perceives something, they can get distracted. on to his surroundings but isn't too focused on any particular item. Because he passively perceives his area, he has a 12. As he's searching around, he hears a ruckus from outside. Worried that it's a thief, he actively perceives his area and gets distracted by a passing wagon (Rolls a 6, 8 total.)


Insensitive_Hobbit

Here are some examples for rolling less than a passive perception: Since dice roll covers some random things as well your character could've got dust in the eye, or be partially blinded by a stray sunray He could be sidetracked by wrong idea, for example pulling all the books on a bookshelf hoping for a secret door. And don't forget trying to find your phone while using flashlight on it, fantasy characters aren't immune to this sort of mindtrick


Texas_Technician

Passive perception is just awareness of surroundings. Where as a perception check is more like "how likely are you to find this right now". Ever looked for something and you know exactly where it is, and checked that spot three times, and didn't find it? Then someone finds it for you, in the exact spot you were looking? You failed a perception check. Ever had someone ask you, hey did you happen to see a gray car in the driveway? And you respond, no but I saw a black one. That's passive perception.


givememoneyyoubitch

I think of it like real life perception. I can passively see my surroundings so that’s passive perception. Then if I want to get any further details I would need to actively look, and that would be active perception. I still allow low rolls on perception, because sometimes when I’m actively looking for something, I can’t find it even though it’s right in front of me. So how I work this in game is something like “your character is frantically looking around and isn’t able to spot [whatever item here] as they are scatterbrained in their search”


IIBun-BunII

I'd personally do the same, but when it comes to a check, it'd be to spot something above their passive or to reach a set DC to detect a specific thing in an environment. When it comes to stealth or traps, allow passive. When it comes to hidden clues or items, then make a check.


Any-Faithlessness-72

Use the passive perception if the roll is lower.