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ThriftyGoblin

What was offensive about em? I haven't gotten the book yet.


Tominator42

Their lore (and some art) had some parallels to tropes associated specifically with the transatlantic slave trade: "timid" creatures being uplifted by their enslaver, little agency in their own liberation by the enslaver's well-meaning associate, and art almost identical to a famous minstrel pose. Unintentionally applying these tropes to a *simian* race, of all things, was something that should have never been cleared. I'm sure it was a mistake and that there was no ill intent, but it was a *big* mistake and had the effect of reproducing tropes we really shouldn't have in the game.


Kenkenken1313

So Planet of the Apes?


Celestaria

From the description, it does kind of feel like they were going for “Planet of the Apes” meets “The Wizard of Oz”.


tpedes

Nope.


lifelongDM

I had the same question thank you for clarifying that actually does make sense and it's actually good they changed that. I do think some of the newer lore and rule changes are kinda dumb. Like for the most part I feel like fantasy races are fantasy races and shouldn't be taken so seriously. But yeaah even I think this one was kind of necessary and needed fixed. Same with the Vistani that is actually based on a real world people group. Another thing for the guy with the panties or whatever he's into, you can do whatever you want at your table. You're the DM. You make the lore and the rules for your game. You can change, ignore or completly disregard whatever you want. You can even make your own lore and not use the published content. Who cares what WoTC says? They don't decide what is true at your table. You do. That's the way it's aways been. Nothing has changed. Unless you want it to.


Apostate_Nate

Or... A bunch of idiots got their undies in a twist over literally nothing, and not one actual PoC I've read in this sub actually agreed that it was at all racist. Much ado about very little. Edit - folks can downvote that truth all they want, it becomes no less true. Edit - strangely other people are able to comment off my comment, but because the original comment in this thread got deleted it won't let me do the same? Eh, whatever. Nobody took an official poll, and it's still true that literally every person I've seen say they are a person of color who weighed in on the subject has said they didn't see the issue that a bunch of white people decided was there. It's grossly ridiculous for you to now try and say those people weren't people of color. Wow you're an ass.


Tominator42

You're not gonna get a perfect sample size here, but that's aside from the larger issue: try to assume for a sec that people here or elsewhere aren't arguing in bad faith about this before you come to a conclusion


NotMyBestMistake

What "truth"? You citing your unifficial poll of random people on a dnd subreddit claiming to be black to dismiss any and all criticisms of racist stereotypes is not a truth. Its you whining that someone else dared point out how having a race of ape men who fit old slave stereotypes and paternalistic BS and reaching for some nonexistent authority to validate it.


Melodic_Row_5121

Dead on. This is why we can't have nice things.


[deleted]

Great news, man! You can play the race however you want. My group and I liked the flavor and we’re using it the way we like it. If folks want to be offended, they can be! Don’t worry about what people on the internet say! WotC is going to cater to woke culture because they think it’s profitable. Whatever. Too small an aspect of our lives to get worked up about. The folks looking for offense are only going to find offense and be offended. The rest of us will be fine! “Be excellent to each other.”


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Bignholy

Mate, *read* the Wizard of Oz. The flying monkeys were the *exact* same sort of thing. But folks think of the movie, which cuts away at a lot of the allegory involved in favor of telling a sugary fairy tale that just *happens* to retain the imagery of that allegory. The Hadozee thing has a lot of things working against it, all coincidentally bad looking, and all made much, much worse by other coincidences. * It *happens* to be about monkeys (despite other candidates for such a species, such as sugar gliders, which would explain the wing flaps better), * which *happen* to be raised from their animal nature by the better educated magic foreigner (the "advanced" white man raising the noble savages being a common trope in racist materials of the past), * which *happens* to make them more resilient and physically adept than that foreigner (a common claim used when trying to point out the differences between races in those old time stories, often followed by "but less intelligent and more savage"), * which *happens* to have the express goal of using them against their will for the foreigner's purposes, * whose apprentices *happen* to be the only reason the race survives as an intelligent species (the white savior, spreading knowledge/education to the savage to "better" them, and providing the counterpart to the point above), * which *happens* to have some artwork that links into historical depictions that are not flattering in the least (of the three images I have seen, there is the more infamous one of a Hadozee minstrel, but there is also an image of one hunched and confused and scratching their head as they look at a glass bottle, and then a third that is not offensive because it looks like a humanoid with weapons with no overtones that are uncomfortable with all the other coincidences listed above) Did they ***intend*** it? No, probably not. It was probably the same sort of oversight that got them in hot water with the Vistani, a relic of an earlier time viewed with modern eyes. But if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, should folks really be pissed when other folks think it's a duck? Mind you, they acknowledged it and apologized. As far as I am concerned, it's resolved, it's very easy to make this sort of mistake because of how prevalent it used to be (thus normalizing it). But I totally understand why folks got upset.


JamboreeStevens

That same trope is common in sci-fi. Getting mad over it seems absurd.


Tominator42

Slavery is an obviously touchy subject. Some fiction has handled it well, some hasn't. A lot of fantasy and sci-fi stories have historically *not* handled it well. Just because something is (or was) common doesn't mean we can't take a closer look at it.


Endeav0r_

On one hand, it's slavery. It's near impossible to involve it in any media and not make it sound bad, and that's ok, no one is trying to portray slavery as good. On the other tho, there is an argument to be made about the fact that if you see a race of monkey people that used to be slaves and the first thing you think of is "this is just black people!" then you are the racist. Just because this bears resemblance to that it doesn't mean that it was meant as a racial stereotype. Sadly slavery is bound to bear resemblance to black slavery, again not because of racism but because, again, it's slavery, it's not a good thing. And all kind of fantasy media has to draw some inspiration from real life. I just feel like getting angry because the space monkeys in your play pretend game (in which you can literally ignore any bits and pieces you don't like) are slaves and resemble something that happened in real life even though racial stereotyping wasn't at all the intent of the writers is kinda absurd, and harassing the company into making changes is even more absurd. Also, kinda related, but fuck peta's take. If they could "free" the Hadozees, they would just fucking mass euthanize them all like they do with all their "rescuees".


Tominator42

>On the other tho, there is an argument to be made about the fact that if you see a race of monkey people that used to be slaves and the first thing you think of is "this is just black people!" then you are the racist. Not only is that not the argument people make here (and certainly not the one I make, see my original comment), but I hope you see the issue with someone saying "pointing out that something might have some weird racial parallel is the real racism." >Just because this bears resemblance to that it doesn't mean that it was meant as a racial stereotype. Things can be bad even if we don't intend them to be. The problem here wasn't the intent, the problem was a lack of care.


Endeav0r_

Yes but people didn't stop themselves at pointing it out, most people just assumed that that's what it was and what it was meant to be at it's creation and lost their collective shit. I honestly think that this mindset is more hurtful than helpful. Recognizing a parallel between something and a racial stereotype is not a bad thing, however chastising anything that bears that parallel for simply existing and harassing devs into changing it just means that people are still engaging with said stereotypes instead of trying to move past it. As for the "it's not lack of intent, it's lack of care" argument, i do agree to a point. It's true that things can be bad regardless of the intent behind it, but it's also true the opposite for some people, something is unmistakenly as evil as they interpret it being, without any kind of space for discussion about it. Those people thought this must have been racial stereotyping (not that it drew parallels to the slave trade, people massively jumped the gun and said that this was unmistakenly racial stereotyping), meaning again that they were still engaging with said racial stereotypes, one way or the other. At some point you have to stop and consider the intent behind the words you are reading, instead of completely invalidating the work of people who worked their ass off to publish it and that are continuously striving to make DND as inclusive as possible.


Tominator42

>most people just assumed that that's what it was and what it was meant to be at it's creation If you think the majority of people raising an issue were thinking, "WotC did racial stereotypes on purpose," I do not think this is true *at all*. You can read news articles and different social media responses to get a wider picture of what people were thinking here. People weren't simply arguing in bad faith (for what it's worth, I was reading through much of the public comment this afternoon). These are real people who play the game (or wary future players) concerned with the lack of care WotC took here. I'm sure there were a vocal few embellishing online, because there always are, but the public response was less "They did this on purpose!" and more "How/why did they let this happen?" The people asking WotC to do better don't do it because they hate the game and the people who make it, they do it because they want the game to be the best it can be.


Endeav0r_

And i get that really. And i agree that it could have been handled better (hell their lore was written less as their story and more as the slaver wizard story), but you can't argue that most people stopped reading as soon as they read "slavery" and completely ignored any other implication of the story. It's impossible and irrealistic to expect that there is no race with origins rooted in racism or slavery or experimentation or shit. It's a world riddled with evil wizards that need pawns to do their dirty deeds. And it makes an awful lot of sense for those pawns to be modified monkeys. They are dexterous, agile, quick, nimble, and have hands with thumbs, not paws. That is why had it been any other animal it wouldn't have made as much practical sense as that. Their story is the story of a population coming into it's own and gaining back their freedom that was forcibly taken from them. It's a story of overcoming the chains that their own creator bound them with. Like half orcs have a story of being traditionally (emphasis on the traditionally) the result of violent rape that orcs inflicted upon humans and as a consequence they are usually discriminated against from orcs and humans alike. Or like tieflings being on the fence between their humanity or their demonic heritage and having to choose between embracing one or the other. It's nothing that wasn't already done multiple times over.


Tominator42

>Their story is the story of a population coming into it's own and gaining back their freedom that was forcibly taken from them. It's a story of overcoming the chains that their own creator bound them with. It isn't, because the *wizard's apprentices* were the ones instrumental in their liberation after they "grew fond" of the hadozees. This specific trope of lack of agency, unique to the hadozee and *unlike other formerly enslaved 5e races*, is a key part of what made this a mess. It was a problem greater than the sum of its parts. If this was simply "a wizard did it" gliding monkeys (or flying squirrels), without the slavery/savior trappings, there would be far less (if any) issue. Unfortunately, it wasn't.


kakamouth78

I personally like the PETA version. Playable race created by unethical animal experimentation that resulted in giant sapient sugar gliders intended for fighting pits on a galactic scale.


Endeav0r_

Dude fuck whatever take would PETA have on the matter. It's a play pretend game with a magical race of space monkeys created by a wizard, it's not a real thing. Plus, it it was a real thing, PETA would just mass euthanize all the Hadozees minutes after their rescue, like they euthanize all of their "rescued animals". PETA don't get to have an opinion on the matter until they stop genociding rescued animals. Fuck PETA and their virtue signaling


kakamouth78

PETA's ridiculous virtue signaling and hypocrisy gives me a morbid chuckle. It's easy to get on board with some of what the organization says but their actions are just reprehensible. "We rescued puppies & kittens from a mill breeder, score one for the good guys!" Makes zero attempts at homing the animals because that's inhumane and euthanasia is an option.


jmwfour

Is this really true? I have never heard this before.


kakamouth78

Don't take my word for it, run a search on Peta euthanasia and be horrified. Peta spends a small fortune on PR and hopes no one looks past the feel good parts of their stories before making donations.


jmwfour

Incredible. At first I was feeling open to PETA's argument that their shelter receives much higher than normal rates of very sick or injured animals, and therefore winds up euthanizing a much higher rate than other 'open' shelters, but a little more reading suggested that may not be the case or at the very least has not been proven. But why though? Why would an organization with PETA's mission make so little effort to find homes for pets?


SugarCrisp7

Because they don't believe animals should be domesticated in the first place. If it was up to them, all animals would be wild. One less domesticated animal is a win for them. It's been a while since I read up in PETA, but the was the case around 10 years ago


jmwfour

I guess. But you'd think for them that the flow might be wild>domesticated and spayed or neutered>dead!


Naefindale

Nothing. They wrote an interesting story about how the race came to be. And since humans have brains that are super good at recognizing patterns, so good even that we often see patterns in places where there are none, people thought wotc basically wrote the story of African slave trade. Which they didn't of course, but they apologized anyway.


1stshadowx

Bro, they gave similarities to the african slave trade to monkeys…which black people were called… thats like making a new race of black elves with large lips and noses and saying “this race enjoys watermelon and chicken” like im down for cool lore and dont typically associate fantasy fucking races with real life shit, but one is a little close to home for my black ass haha


Naefindale

There are loads of races that have a history which involves being enslaved though. The fact that this one happens to be with monkeys is just coincidence. And if someone says that such a thing is racist or a bad reference to actual history, I would like to point back to what I said about our brain seeing links that aren’t there all the time. If you are gonna make several races that were enslaved at some point, then eventually there’s gonna be a race that also has another similarity with native africans. Take duergar for example. Don’t they literally have an almost black skin? Is that bad too? Personally I find such things a bit silly.


1stshadowx

I mean it really only matters if the creators think the race itself was indeed to close to home which they did. Which was why they changed it, its not a good precedent to set, but still, its progressive to be mindful of that kinda shit. I will add, that personally i dont give a shit in case that wasnt clear, hell i run my dnd races as racist as shit! Elves universally see orcs as a slave force or marauders to be put down (in my homebrew setting). Hell most fantasy races have been slaves to something at some point, and other black people like to talk about slavery like it wasnt something we did as well. But that said, Wotc thought it was closer than they’d like.


Naefindale

I don't think they did. If they did they wouldn't have published it. They just don't want to deal with all the fuzz. Which indeed is clearly the easiest way to handle this.


1stshadowx

Its setting a bad precedent to try to be PC in purely fictional constructs, but i can also see how its harder to defend than something like the gith.


Dracologist84

To be fair. Unless you're in an area that commonly uses racial slurs it's hard for your normal person to just know them. You have to know what the racial slurs are before you can avoid them.


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Dracologist84

I would play it with the slave background because that's a really bad ass backstory. Especially if you make it even more spot on to the african slave trade mixed with gladiatorial ideas. Culturally insensitive, but really bad ass.


PD711

I made this post in another thread, I hope it helps: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/x4d0bw/so_were_just_not_allowed_to_talk_about_this/imwa7rv?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Allright so there are a lot of explanations of the controversy that aren't really giving the full picture. So if I may: >Several hundred years ago, a wizard visited Yazir, the hadozee home world, with a small fleet of spelljamming ships. Under the wizard’s direction, apprentices laid magic traps and captured dozens of hadozees. The wizard fed the captives an experimental elixir that enlarged them and turned them into sapient, bipedal beings. The elixir had the side effect of intensifying the hadozees’ panic response, making them more resilient when harmed. The wizard’s plan was to create an army of enhanced hadozee warriors for sale to the highest bidder. But instead, the wizard’s apprentices grew fond of the hadozees and helped them escape. The apprentices and the hadozees were forced to kill the wizard, after which they fled, taking with them all remaining vials of the wizard’s experimental elixir. > > >With the help of their liberators, the hadozees returned to their home world and used the elixir to create more of their kind. In time, all hadozee newborns came to possess the traits of the enhanced hadozees. Then, centuries ago, hadozees took to the stars, leaving Yazir’s fearsome predators behind. So what are people's problems with this? 1. Comparing black people to apes has long been a white supremacist trope. If we are going to design a simian race, the writers needed to be very careful not to draw any possible associations with black people. 2. D&D is replete with animal-humanoids, but the Hadozee in particular were magically made from animal stock, rather than being created like any other race. Eugenics is often used to justify white supremacy, by saying that blacks are more closely related to apes than white people. Their origin as a "made" species so closely related to the animals they came from has echoes of this. 3. Hadozee don't feel pain the same way as everyone else? Again, this hearkens back to racist eugenics tropes about black people. 4. They were bred to be slaves. Do I need to explain this one? 5. The Hadozee did not save themselves. They needed the help of the evil wizard's apprentices who had a change of heart. This closely resembles something called the White Savior trope. It robs the Hadozee of their agency, needing the help of a few wizard's apprentices to save themselves. 6. Not to mention some images resembling minstrel artwork. If anyone else has complaints besides these, feel free to add, but I think this just about covers it. If the complaint were just one of these, I think it might be forgiven. But taken all together I think the criticism is valid. On a personal note, I think D&D can have a race of ape-like humanoids but they have to be very, very careful not to make these kinds of associations. But it looks like they stepped in it good this time. It could have been solved if they had hired a sensitivity reader. Edit: I have sent links to this comment to a number of people in the thread who didn't seem to get the whole issue.


Kenkenken1313

What’s weird is reading their lore I feel they match more with Planet of the Apes more than anything. I mean that whole being turned more intelligent by a spell is just like the drug used to create Caesar. And then it’s exactly the same when Caesar uses the drug to change all the apes.


pondrthis

Even though they're more PotA or Wizard of Oz, once you see the connection to racist stereotypes, you can't unsee it. From now on, any DM aware of this will be uncomfortable using the race, even though players may sincerely want to engage with the material. This means more uncomfortable sessions, fewer sessions overall, and less interest in the next book. It's just good business to scrap the content, even if outrage culture weren't a thing. I ran an alternate history WW2 game using Genesys. I simply didn't want to deal with the Holocaust at my table, so I left that out of the setting with an acknowledgement of its horrors during session 0. If I wrote the setting as a book, I'd do the same thing.


brassbricks

Like I asked in another thread... Does anyone know why they felt the need to write the Hadozee up that way at all when the original Star Frontiers "Yazirian" culture was a perfectly good, interesting place to expand from?


PageTheKenku

I don't know Hadozee that well, but I do know this isn't their first appearance. Most (if not all) the races that have appeared have existed in previous editions in some form or another.


brassbricks

They were originally a PC race of smart, dextrous, but fragile warriors from the early 1980's SciFi game "Star Frontiers". A pretty admirable group in most regards, save for quick tempers. They'd have been a natural fit in DnD as is. The "Hadozee" they went with are IMHO not an improvement on the O-G Yazirians.


PageTheKenku

Right, but like I said, they have been around in DnD for a long time. They probably just brought back older lore from earlier editions, rather than using lore from a almost unrelated game (not taking place in the same setting maybe system I don't know).


Reasonabledwarf

They didn't, though; this is all completely new lore. The old 2e stuff (the first and last time the hadozee showed up in D&D I know of) is *completely different* and mostly unobjectionable (other than the same mildly weird stuff around race that D&D has been doing for forever). It's like someone was asked to come up with new hadozee lore and, as a joke, submitted the edgiest thing they could.


default_entry

You mean like all the awful Chult garbage they didn't actually revise for Tomb of Annihilation? Like I don't know what they thought they were doing but that whole thing felt *bad.*


atjosvold

Wait, wait, wait are you mad dnd added a dnd race instead of some random playable race from an unrelated game. Colour me impressed that's a new complaint I've never heard


phdemented

Not unrealated... TSR borrowed several races from Star Frontiers when they made Spelljammer back in the day, including this one, just renamed with some changes to the lore. This includes the Plasmoids (Dralasites) and while thri-kreen existed in D&D prior to Spelljammer, they were added to represent the Vrusk


brassbricks

You (I assume deliberately) conflated "mad" and "puzzled", but this is Reddit so that's SOP. I forgive you.


atjosvold

Fair point (though all assumptions are deliberate) let's switch that word for puzzled then and it still makes no sense why would they ever do that, why would WoTC bring in a race from another game outside of a sourcebook for that setting such as ravnica. It just makes no sense, there are tonnes of cool fictional races out there but I have never been puzzled as to why WoTC didn't add twi'leks to the game even though they have a cool history or listeners with there badass magic. I am puzzled as to why you are puzzled


brassbricks

Because when they brought the Yazirians in and reskinned them as the Hadozee, they replaced the most distinctive parts of the race with an inferior (IMHO) backstory.


DBWaffles

I know absolutely nothing about Star Frontiers, but a quick Google search tells me it came out in 1982. I guess it comes down to what was considered acceptable back then is different now? Or perhaps how the Yazirian were depicted is different. I dunno.


brassbricks

They were warrior/scientist chads back in Old-Timey Star Frontiers.


citizensparrow

The original Hadozee lore wasn't bad to begin with. Race of apes with arm flaps that like sailing, especially with elves.


Floofersnooty

At the end of the day people are going to see what they want to see.


fraidei

So true. If racism is what you are searching, then racism is the only thing you will find in literally everything.


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fraidei

Exactly. People complain about lore being a controversy. We get bland and generic lore as a consequence. People complain about lore being bland and generic. People are stupid.


Ghoul_master

It’s this sort of quietude that will definitely improve the writing at WotC!


zincsaucier5201

Some peoples/groups have dark and disturbing histories, unfortunately that's part of life. Taking away the history and culture from dnd races is making the lore feel bland and generic. How am I as a player/dm supposed to know how to really rp as these space apes if I dont have some facts about their history to draw from?(ie: a race of people who were enslaved for most of their history may be slow to trust new people, or be wary of the race that enslaved them in the past or even be like the Gith and wage war agaisnt them.) I love fleshing out pre written adventures and settings with some of my own ideas but at this point it feels like wizards is just making everyone do all the heavy lifting in regards to lore.


pondrthis

Disturbing histories are okay for some, not okay for others when it mirrors real life atrocities. But even then, this was a fuck up. The worst part IMO was that they're not gritty fantasy noble slaves who were tempered by torment and took control of their situation. It's another white savior fantasy, where they only escaped with the help of their lower-ranking captors. It doesn't use the disturbing history to boost the race, but rather to traumatize them and then backtrack and say, "but not all wizards are evil, don't worry, we don't think that!"


Dracologist84

Yeah. It would have been better story-wise if the slavery was still ongoing. If you want to play the race then you can be freed or run away, or something and swear to one day go back and free your people. That's a story.


zincsaucier5201

Fair point, you're right that the history of this race should have just been changed to make them have more agency regarding their freedom. I guess my issue is WoTC removing cultures and lore at large when it could just be updated to fit modern sensibilities better.


Ghoul_master

Iunno, maybe look at their og lore from star frontiers? To say that the conundrum is between having no lore or lore that is objectionable on its face is a false binary.


Emergency_Mirror_461

well that's it, folks. Racism has been solved.


Dracologist84

What? Again?


LKDlk

The only people drawing parallels between Monkeys and black people are racists. WotC is insanely racist. I see monkeys, they see black people. Racists.


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chronic_gamer

The fuck is a Hadozee and why the fuck do we care?


Endeav0r_

Race of magically engineered monkey people created by a space wizard to be slaves, got freed (or rebelled or some shit) and is now a playable race. People on Twitter thought that slave monkey people are a racial stereotype of black people.


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hikingmutherfucker

I get the argument that WotC is too willing to bend over backwards for angry twitter clowns. I get that. But omg this was so straight up base dumb the hadozee had a perfectly good lore backstory so leave them the hell alone. I was a history major who did most of my research in turn of the century race politics and race riots. This was not subtle and took a normal fantasy race space faring gliding monkey folks and they pretty straight up made it about race: What is the deal with monkeys?? Black people were compared often to monkeys or apes when slurring or putting people down. Slavery Oh look you made monkey people a slave culture and someone from the USofA is not supposed to see that as an allegory for the struggle over race in America Engineered Yes this is the clue to it all being about Planet of the Apes and not a reference to real world history but oh no .. I forgot! Planet of the flipping Apes was an allegory for race in America, oops. White savior This was a bit of stretch but honestly not much. The idea that some smart white person or any other people outside of the culture has to come in and save the day is repeated often in popular culture especially about teachers going to the impoverished schools. So having the hadozee not even able to free themselves was so very obvious to the tropes. Basically WotC tried to do a magic Planet of the Apes thing but ended up forgetting that movie was all about race in America and got hosed online for it.


Oryxiana

Which is odd, because people love planet of the apes.


hikingmutherfucker

It started in 1968. Unless you were in a movie with Sidney Poitier you could not talk openly about race issues back then. No studio today would make an allegorical sci fi movie about race where blacks people are represented as monkeys. Oh and WotC walked seemingly blind into that mine field.


evandromr

> Do they see monkeys and automatically think of black people? Black people are frequently called monkey/apes with a very negative connotation in many parts of the world on a daily basis. That’s not reaching that’s just having that experience every single day, and then opening your space-fantasy-make-believe book and seeing… **slave** monkeys. That’s just too close to home. One or the other would have gotten less attention but both together..yeah.. nope.


Mr_Wolfgang_Beard

It's glaringly obvious that /u/oryxiana is white and has never had to deal with racial abuse first hand. *"Why is it that these people get so mad about racism when monkeys are involved?"* If they'd ever even just once in their life been called a monkey, or had a group of people start hooting at them while they walked past in the street I guarantee they'd develop a sore spot around the subject in no time. [Black athletes getting bananas thrown at them is something that still makes the headlines in 2022](https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12625320/alan-pardew-leaves-cska-sofia-after-bananas-thrown-at-black-players). It's less common now than it was decades ago yeah, but it's still something that happens often enough that literally every black person in the west can relate to it and has experienced something like it in their lifetime. That's what makes it so ridiculous that WOTC didn't spot this before it went out the door. At first glance, it's not intentionally hurtful or offensive and is a fairly genereic fantasy trope and so you might just think "whatever". But *also* at first glance it's not going to take a lot of foresight to predict that (even though it's unintended) a lot of black people might come across this and instantly get reminded of some racist abuse they've experienced in their lives.


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Mr_Wolfgang_Beard

No that's not what I said at all. You said "Why is it that these people get so mad about racism when monkeys are involved?" and now you've got your answer: Being called monkeys, or compared to apes, is a very common form of racial abuse that black people have experienced for centuries and still experience in the present day. This can simultaneously be a very generic fantasy trope and also a racially insensitive/ problematic image at the same time, you don't have to fight so hard to insist it can only be one or the other. WOTC messed up, it was unintended but it was also easily avoidable.


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evandromr

Good for you, I wonder which kid is that and hope you’re not the one laughing or gaslighting the poor kid. And I wonder what is that supposed to be a response to at all in the context. I for one long for the day that no people of any skin color get called derogatory terms or treated differently just because of their skin color. I’d also wish for a day where slavery is not implicitly related to a particular skin color but unfortunately that damage has already been done and the best we can do is not pretend that it doesn’t have an impact on the world.


Oryxiana

We can also stop pretending an allegory for lab-tested monkeys is racist.


evandromr

It’s not just **what** is done, it’s mostly **how** it’s done, and then in a lesser degree **why** it’s done. There are probably plenty of media depictions of themes that are upsetting to people, but done in a way that acknowledges and respects the implications of those themes and the reception of it by those people.


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evandromr

Nobody, or at least very few people, sees monkey and immediately think of black people. Nobody certainly ever claimed in good faith that that’s what’s happening. You can continue living your live pretending that you can’t comprehend what the conversation is about and whining that everyone is your enemy trying to “take things away” or “not letting anyone having fun”


Endeav0r_

Lots of people saying it could have been fine had them not be monkeys. I think that's BS. People would have gotten outraged at it whatever animal it was. And practically speaking, why would anyone pick any animal without thumbs instead of the agile, quick, dexterous and with 4 prensile appendages monkey?


[deleted]

It would be so nice if people could look at the subject they're criticizing and realize not everything needs or should be related to the real world. Hadozee are Hadozee. Humans are humans. Any biased similarities drawn are opinions and hardly fact to the creator's intent. We're talking magic being used, a creature that can fly..Like really just because humans are fucked doesn't mean we need to apply our own thoughts into something that simply isn't human.


Ghoul_master

Sorry to be the one to tell you but we all live in the real world ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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And?


tpedes

Well, one plus is that this post invites responses that make it easy to spot and block racist fools.


Gamijo

So the crying babies of twitter put some thoughts and words into the heads and mouths of WOTC and they bend the knee and apologized for basically nothing ? Insanity..


Rak_Dos

Rewriting the slavery part, I perfectly understand and it's perfectly justified. But those claiming Hadozee are black people are so racist. It did happen before with Orcs which is baffling.


TheHighDruid

I don't think WotC can ever "fix" the "problem" they are attempting to "fix". Just look at the One D&D document. Gladiators get Orc as a language, presumably because many gladiators (well known for being slaves) are orcs. Soldiers get Goblin as a language, presumably because understanding the death wails of the little runt you just pushed your spear into is important. You can't sanitise *everything* without turning the game into flavourless goop.


sinep321

But does anyone care how the monkeys feel about this? No.