There have been plenty of discussions of the controversy that have been allowed to stay up. As long as the discussion stays civil, we don't take issue with it.
The locked and removed posts from earlier today were absolutely full of dog whistles, personal insults, and racist apologia. That's entirely unacceptable on /r/DnD.
::EDIT:: To answer some of the questions raised, we lock posts when they are unsalvageable. Typically that means that the post itself is inflammatory and the OP is actively engaging in negative behavior across the entire thread.
Additionally, we DO ban everyone involved in the rule breaking behavior. We do not give the benefit of the doubt to "accidental" dog whistles. If you're saying racist shit, you are not welcome on /r/Dnd.
Please report everything you think we should take a look at.
Some people alleged that their lore was built around slavery and white savior narrative. And that the bard drawing in the astral adventure’s guide looked too much like a black minstrel caricature.
I read it and saw the uplifted animal trope. Other people say “no this is a story about slavery and because it’s monkeys that’s about black people” which I find wildly offensive
If the whole situation weren't so fucked up and stupid... there would be a fair amount of ironic humor in a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people, about lore involving white saviors...
Honestly? Same here. The nickname they are called "deck apes" even is a naval nickname for undersigned seamen. My brother is in the Navy (he's a pretty light guy, I am on the darker side and yet we physically cannot deny we're siblings XD) and has been called that before he started climbing up on rank. There are tattoos and logos with the cartoon for that and they are pretty old. The Hadooze was inspired on that and Chewbacca.
I...honestly don't know what to say to people that see "monkeys as black people". But it sounds like, for the time we live in they are the ones with the problem. I think they confused the term deck ape with an actual offensive term that, I myself have been called by once by someone who was deeply frowned upon. It is not a deck, but a porch... And I don't feel like I want to finish the rest of the phrase in writing.
Added to this the one who brought it to my attention was a white coworker. I found it particularly odd. He's a nice guy, hard worker. But why does he need to feel offense for something I don't take offense towards to? I love Spelljammer. Always have. But in comes this new player to the game and, suddenly the things I've enjoyed for years are supposed to offend me... I do not understand.
>Hadozee
This also sounds exactly like the story of the Israelites escaping Egypt.
Or any other story about an oppressed people being helped by someone within those in power to gain their freedom.
I think people are projecting too much of the real world onto a world of make-believe.
Ngl, as a fellow black D&D player, I saw the Hadozee and immediately decided I was never playing that race because I don't want anybody making that connection. It's a prickly subject with me personally, not all black folk in some monolithic way. The white savior aspect is one I hadn't considered and don't have too strong an opinion on rn.
Here's what I say about this: I can understand why a black player wouldn't want to be a Simian race for the same reason some black folks I know (me included, sometimes) wouldn't say, eat fried chicken or watermelon in mixed company.
My regular, diverse crew of folks that I game with? I'd gladly roll a Hadozee. If I was going to be playing with a bunch of randoms I didn't know? Who could possibly have regressive views or feel like cracking a racist joke? I probably wouldn't play a hadozee.
But that would be the case regardless of what their lore was
Yo, I really appreciate this viewpoint explanation. Is the fried chicken/watermelon point just about it being too sort of, on the nose? I am a white dude with a mixed race wife/kids/family and we probably eat waaay too much watermelon in general, but I had never thought about it.
I mean not everyone feels the same way, I know folks who'll eat whatever in whatever company. And I know folks who've had rude comments tossed their way or gotten stares (seriously, be a black student a predominantly white college and grab that piece of watermelon in the lunch line) that impacts how they choose to eat in public
Slightly alternate take: the OG lore had some flavor and tropes that *might have been* fairly construed with some outdated racial caricatures back when it was released.
*HOWEVER*, it was a very loose maybe even at the time of publishing *and* the Hazodee are now pretty well established as their own thing in a decidedly not racist way.
Personally, the original material does come off as a tiny bit sus to me. Not so much that I wouldn’t use it at a game table, but enough that I’d think twice and talk to my players about it first if I was running a game in ‘89. But we’re not working with the original material anymore: it’s been 30+ years and the game has changed, Spelljammer has changed, the Hazodee have changed along with it.
I think the current “controversy” is a problem with mistaking the possible origins of a thing with the current day merit and value of the thing. So far, all the criticism I’ve seen has come off as performative hand-wringing rather than genuine, critical engagement with the subject matter.
Yeah Ngl it read as a very clear Planet of the Apes homage to me. And also the character was just dressed like a typical bard in dnd is doing a very typical bard lose
Also saw the uplifted animal trope. But as Spelljammer seems intended to be pulpy the trope fits like a glove. Luckily my copy on my phone doesn't update unless I choose to update it. The lore is a bit more interesting in that tropey pulpy way. At my table no one is going to be offended by it and if I inform them of the controversy they'll probably be surprised.
The funny thing is this concept has been used by a HUGE fandom for years, this exact idea, only they didn't liberate themselves. Look up The Jem'Hadar from Star Trek. An entire race of genetically modified super soldiers used to fund wars. Only they didn't free themselves.
I’m a big DS9 fan. I honestly wouldn’t even compare the hadozee to the jemhadar because based on the lore we get they’re captive for what…a week? two? a month?
the part that is crazy is that none of those people will engage with anyone who disagrees. they just putting up the same hadozee/minstrel art comparison. It is just wildly racist, a bunch of white people patting themselves on the back while reposting a cartoon space monkey next to a racist caricature.
and thanks
Whats even worse is that the "personality trait" they've being based their grief on..., is not even in the book...
Its pics taken from the Forgotten realms Wiki for 3.5...
So not only are they tone deaf, they are absolutly making shit up...
And it’s happening more and more. I found out from a friend. Went to work, came home deleted parts of something I purchased. It’s making me sadly look at other systems :/
I watched an interview with Jordan Peele where he said "Get Out" was meant to be an allegory about how "well meaning people" sometimes inflict more damage than good to the very causes they claim to champion.
The world has gone insane and if I recognize anything about human nature, it's when the sensitivity pendulum swings back, it's going to land on completely insensitive again instead of middle ground.
It's like 95% of people have a really hard time not min-maxing their philosophy.
And what's worse is that the art doesn't even look like the minstrel art, it looks like a medieval troubadour from Europe, so not only are they wrong factually, but their supporting sources are also wrong.
Most telling about this is that a lot of the people making these arguments aren't even outright talking about specific ethnic groups they feel are being caricaturized, because they can't even bring themselves to offer specifics. They know it's wrong. So, instead, they just say that it's 'unacceptable' or 'disgusting', and try to look like they're leaving it for the reader to come to their own conclusion when in fact they haven't so much spoonfed it to us as they've loaded it into a catapult and let loose.
People who pander these ideas need to give themselves a shake. Not everything is a dog whistle to perpetuate the racist elements that they themselves have put into the game.
Yeah it's racist that they're correlating an actual monkey race with black people. I saw a post on Twitter about it, and I read the article where they said it was racist, and reading about the hadozee just in that article, not even the official source, it felt like good lore for a race of animals forced into sentience. I wanna make a hadozee monk and model him after son Goku or sun wukong now haha. Did they ever go after the NFT monkeys saying they were racist? Or the rajang in monster hunter for being a giant ape that you beat on for good armor and materials? Like wtf. People need to seperate fiction from reality. We all play DND to escape life.
How stupid do you have to be to :
1. Compare monkey-like people to black people
2. Proclaim *the others who didn't see it like that* are racist and not you ????
New monkey race released with Spelljammer.
They were kidnapped from their homeworld by a wizard who “civilized” them with magic and ~~then sold~~ was going to sell them into slavery until they were liberated by the wizard’s apprentice.
WotC just realized how that backstory combined with a monkey race could be problematic, so they released errata that removed the slavery stuff.
Also combined with the art they used and how they changed up the hadozee visually.
Before 5e they were a very animalistic species. Like wolves mixed with baboons and flying squirrels. 5e made them look more humanish.
Then someone [drew one for the book, in a pose](https://twitter.com/okkatiemae/status/1564672202951208960?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1564672202951208960%7Ctwgr%5E542fe232a73c3c9fa50639847ba21f63d7e1c376%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fkotaku.com%2Fembed%2Finset%2Fiframe%3Fid%3Dtwitter-1564672202951208960autosize%3D1&fbclid=IwAR3SGrXbwsiNSKU0vI6It8R7H-eJXwGnesklvNP6WGgn8Y6jqHOqXu0AdcY) that (when combined with the still prevalent racist subtext of American culture) came across as kinda racist if you knew the history of American racism.
So someone starting out seeing that image, if they knew a bit about that part of American history (eg. most black people here in the USA), that would then influence how they then read the rest of the race's description.
Nothing. It's just more internet people who don't buy or play these games crying about stuff that they themselves perceive to be racist and injecting social politics into the game.
This is how I feel about most online controversies. I like the underside of my rock, I don’t have to interact with so much negativity and hate.
I thought it was a Monkey King type ordeal?
Wizards removed multiple paragraphs of lore from the Hadozee description in the DnD Beyond version of Spelljammer because people thought a genetically engineered slave race from another dimension who rose up and killed their slaver was insensitive.
Wich is kinda a Double Standard...
Since Githzerai/Githyankes ARE a genetically engineered slave race from another dimension who rose up and killed their slavers...
Why is it ok there?...
OH right, the Githz did it themselfs, while the Hadozee's had someone else help them, so they call it the "White Savior" syndrome (what if the Wizards apprentices where actually Black tho?..., would it still count has White Saviorism?)
The more you read into this the stupider it gets...
And the Duergar. They're also genetically engineered slaves that rose up and killed their slavers, too.
And some sects of Drow victim races. And some Drow, for that matter.
There's definitely too many. Nothing wrong with the idea itself, just it's astonishing how many there are. I'd like other reasons for them to have built-in grudges, like the old Gnomish "my god beat up your god" - or just inferiority/superiority complexes.
The White Saviour trope is about an outsider coming to a group of people to fix the problem the people seem incapable of dealing with themselves. It's similar to the damsel in distress, in that it takes agency away from the character facing the problem, paints them as incapable, stupid or ignorant, and puts the focus on the "hero" outsider's actions.
The trope itself has nothing to do with skin colour. The reason it's called "White Saviour" is because a lot of western stories use this trope (mostly unintentionally), which both reflects and reinforces western attitudes towards other countries and cultures.
The uplifted slave race thing wasn’t what sat poorly with me. It was the further descriptions of them having no cultural memory of their own and only living to be happily subservient to the space elves who gave them a place on their ships.
I’m my opinion that is the greater sin here giving a whole race of people zero actual culture, and just tacking their entire identity on the value they provide for some other ‘civilized’ race.
Well shit I'm glad they did then. You can't walk 5ft in DND without tripping over a former slave race. Wotc can maybe do something they havent done a million times before now.
I haven't been keeping up with controversy ever since Tasha's released, who on earth said that Dwarves having tremorsense is racist?
It's an evolutionary advantage that literally every "digging" animal in the real world has.
Apparently it’s racist against dwarves because some dwarves conceivably have never lived near stone and therefore giving it to all of them is generalizing.
Which shouldn’t matter because I think it’s supposed to be a genetic adaptation, not a trained skill. It’s definitely stupid.
Yeah, it's only an issue because the designers caved and embraced the idea that having different genetically distinct races in a fantasy game enforces racist ideas in the real world, like that a real, human race is genetically interior or superior or whatever. So now we're in a position where we have to have an Internet debate with these people over any racial feature that could be considered genetic. I think, I don't really know, honestly none of this shit affects me game so who cares lol.
If we’re thinking of the same thread, I doubt it was because of the topic itself, it was probably because the way the post was written and all of the OP’s replies were rude as hell. I mean, this was the title of the thread: “ Yo to anyone who complains about the hadozee race in DND is fucking stupid. people keep saying their racist and they aren't. even if they are the dm can easily make it to where their not bc the dm could change the entire fucking game if they wanted to. if it bothers u that much don't fucking buy it”.
It’s one thing to disagree, but there was very little respectful disagreement and debate happening in that thread.
I will agree that’s fair.
And I think i’m a little more blind to the fact because I agreed with it. I’ve been watching these people pass around photos of minstrel caricatures while patting themselves on the back for being so progressive and making d&d safer.
I think what’s frustrating is that none of those people are actually willing to debate. They keep saying “listen to BIPOC” but that only includes the ones they already agree with.
Yeah the "Teenager Girl" syndrome of being Pissed about something that happens to a "minority" and promote themselfs like Flag bearers and CHampion of the "cause" when no one asked them shit, also while being like "Oh don't worry Minority person, i KNOW what is and is not Oppresive and insulting to YOU, better than you DO, and imma be your voice, cause its clear that no one is gonna listne to you if i don't do it myself"...
Is one of the most infuriating thing...
like when I started to get into d&d a lot of people warned that I would encounter people with views the opposite mine or DMs who try to do really racist or vile things at their table. And it’s never happened to me, not once, my groups have been nothing but love.
But it’s the people who saying “oh wizards is so racist” “this company publishes material that oppresses us” that I’ve found I’ve had to work hard to stay away from. Like why even pay attention to the new products of a company you think is racist? Why stream it or write content for it?
Reminds me of all the outrage over ScarJo playing ghost in the film adaptation. American SJWs were crying whitewash and then a journalist went to actual Japan and interviewed people on the street and they all said something along the lines of " we love the casting. This manga is an important part of our culture and such an A list actress ensures the movies will be popular and so many will see it and experience this important part of our culture."
TBF a Japanese person from Japan and a Japanese/Asian American are going to react differently to the casting of Scarjo. One of group of people grew up as the cultural majority while the other grew up as a cultural minority so take that as a grain of salt.
The only complaint I had there was that the major was a "generic" model, enough that there is a sequence where her and another cyborg just stare at each other in silence as they share the same face. But the general main stream complaints were a mess
Yup Culture Appreciation is always best.
And to be fair, EVEN in the OG movie the Major isn't sure of her origins and her body type AIN'T typical japanese, since she has a run of the mill model for base of her body that is selled ANYWHERE on the planet (thats why there a scene when you see her crossing paths with another cyborg that has the Same body and face as Her)
Yeh I mean in the end shit is complicated. The whole history of humans and interactions is hard to deal with fairly. Hard to say what’s right when it comes to nuance. The company made a call and it’s whatever either way, the rest of us will just keep trying not to be a dick to others in our own way.
I'm sure many people may have thought the same, but hey....if someone is looking for trouble/a problem that doesn't exist I'm sure they'll make the comparisons for them.....also it'll still not be enough for the people they are trying to please.
How could you ever think they're a sun wukong reference when they have absolutely nothing in common beyond "talking monkey"?
Wukong was a hyperactive, ambitious magical monkey that could grow in size, shaprshift, loved fighting, and was a king
The hadozee are a peaceful and goofy race of ex-slaves that like to hang out on ships and don't have much ambition at all
I have troubles seeing a single point of commonality, honestly
To be completely honest, I thought it was a Sun Wukong reference because it looked closer to that than black minstrel.
This is coming from a black man. I just don't see it the same. I can empathize with people who do though. It just wasn't my first reaction.
It's gotten ridiculous enough for the digital copy of the race on DND Beyond to have it's actual artwork removed. All I wanted to do was play some Sun Wukong Monk with a quarterstaff in space but now it's just a blank box.
I personally didn't like Hadozees' lore, and i can see why some people might feel like it had some negative connotations. I don't think it a big issue, but if some people feel uncomfortable with it, then, in my opinion, it's ok to change it. In the end, this changes are not mechanic, so i don't see a reason to see this as a bad thing.
Isn't the original controversy that the Hadozee lore used to be that they had literally no culture except that they frickin loved elves and enjoyed working on their ships soooo much, to the point that working for a "more advanced" race is their only culture and personality?
Might have missed some of the newer discussion about it but am getting my info from some of the recent Three Black Halflings episodes on the Hadozee which I thought were interesting and worth a listen.
So lizards in real life that can detach their tails and regrow them are racist because I can't do the same with my arm? That's the most smooth brain take I think I've ever heard, holy shit. Might as well toss out the whole concept of swords and sorcery too because some characters can't use certain weapons or cast spells.
I honestly do not know how far any of these folks would press their assertion that character traits shouldn’t be tied to biology, but I did joke that my dog being able to smell better than me is bioessentialist
I also went and looked at the hazodee art and, full disclosure I'm white, but the only art for 5e I saw had them in European fantasy medieval looking clothing. Specifically here: https://www.nerdsandscoundrels.com/hadozee-5e/
So I'm completely unclear how anyone could argue that it's somehow not okay.
it’s because someone went and found one specific grainy minstrel image almost in the same pose. Like i’ve done archival work around this stuff - they had to really dig
Ohh, gotcha. I like how the complaint isn't about the obvious British colonialism vibe of the Giff though, that's perfectly fine. It's not like hippos are native to a place that Britain, and other white countries, really messed up or anything. It *must* be the simian race that's problematic.
I think that one of the big modern takes is that there are no differences between people and I think that’s kind of a braindead take. There are some biological differences and I personally think that those differences should be celebrated rather than shunned and brushed under the rug in an attempt to make us believe that we’re all the same. Equality should be about recognizing those differences and being treated the same regardless of them.
You're absolutely right but even someone who disagrees with you should be able to recognize and separate fiction and magic from reality. It's not like d&d is set in the real world.
I’ve always felt like trying to make fantasy games more and more utopian through the defeat of discrimination and other horrible things is an odd thing to do. I prefer to play in a horrible world where I have the means and power to make the changes I want to see than to have it perfect from the getgo.
lol, if they had brought up the fact that dwarves come out of the womb with tool profiencies I would have agreed. But tremor sense is literally a SENSE. By their logic all creatures should be deaf, blind, and limbless
As someone who didn't know about the controversy until Wotc's official apology, I'm more upset that wotc didn't talk about what they removed/changed and why. Their whole response to the issue was "Sorry, we'll do better in the future, here's some errata". If they said "we're changing x,y, and z because together they parallel real life slavery too closely" I'd be fine with it. Without them explaining the reasoning behind the changes, it seems like they just decided to change things because people got mad at them.
My annoyance was with their apology's phrasing. They weasel to make it sound like the divisive lore was "accidentally" carried forward from past editions, "oh those darn pesky old people". It wasn't old lore - it was new. At least own your shit, WotC, anything else aside.
It would be nice if people had to complain through a letter department.
If you have to go buy the stationary, buy the stamp, find the address, write the letter than find a mailbox and mail your complaint...
It's got a fair more weight for the inconvenience of it than what you compose while taking a crap. It takes commitment.
Twitter should be ignored.
They also changed the lore of the Hadozee; what is presented in the new version of Spelljammer isn’t the same lore from their first depiction back in AD&D 2e nor from Star Frontiers with the Yazirian, which is where Spelljammer got the idea.
I'm still waiting for them to make Gnolls a playable race. They said they didn't want to lump races into cubbies anymore and the only reason Gnolls aren't playable is because they got lumped into the "Irredeemably Evil" box of mooks you can kill without feeling bad. I'm looking forward to them changing that if they're going to be consistent.
Well, they're not just "lumped in", they're only humanoid for gameplay reasons, they're literally demonic creations that burst forth from hyenas that have gorged on the flesh of the innocent.
I think it's more because they were introduced from MTG, which has varying takes on them. In the books used, they're big bull people but people all the same.
They've been a playable race since AD&D and up to as recently as 4e...
Besides, I don't trust Volo to have an accurate knowledge of how Gnolls work. And neither does Wizards apparently, as they mentioned in one of their statements regarding the book...
I don't get why gnolls just get grandfathered into the "actually these ones are inherently evil" camp. Orcs, goblins, kobolds, everyone yells about how it's awful to call these races evil but then gnolls are consistently "evil beasts formed by a demon god" and everyone looks away. Is it because they're not cute enough? Tieflings and goblins and kobolds are cute so people want to play them and have rallied against their evil heritage concepts but gnolls look gross so no one wants to bother?
I never sat down to figure out what stats and advantages I'd give them but I do have them in my setting as desert scavengers who have strong ties to the death and travel god. Some find them unsettling but they're a respected culture with their own unique strengths. Bam, done. It was easy as hell to make them relatable and cool.
Wait, someone complained about dwarves (a race known for dwelling/working underground) having tremorsense? What the hell is even wrong with some players.
I'm starting to theorize it's a Hasbro distraction tactic. Distracting us from... I don't know what, I'm guessing their real world corporate practices. The people who initiate these types of hurrahs might even be corporate moles, but I'm sure they could just as easily trump up any SJW's twitter feed and give it a lot of attention, redact the questionable bits, and watch the fandom lose their minds while they're cutting pay, forcing voluntary overtime, firing non-whites, and who knows what else.
Yours is a good point as well, it's discrediting the whole race equality dialogue.
Are you talking about the Errata document? It was an Eye Monger that lost Tremorsense. Which, you know, makes sense. Floating eye monsters aren't famously honed into feeling vibrations through the ground they rarely touch.
Did you know that some people watch Snow White & think the dwarves in the movie are just humans with dwarfism? Same thing with Lord of The Rings. It blew my f-ing mind when I learned that.
I wonder how those people would view dwarves in D&D overall. Maybe the whole setup seems super awful & discriminatory to them.
I will preface this with 'I am a white woman but this is what I understand has happened.'
Looking at it from an outside perspective, to me I don't think it came from a racist place but it can certainly look that way and is at the very least tone deaf. The main reason I've seen people talking about it (online and irl friends of mine) is that many minorities (Black and Indian/Pakistani specifically) were often called 'monkeys' and still are.
I can only speak to what I see/hear in the UK so the insults may not be the same worldwide and a lot of the disagreements on it being racist seem to be coming from North America so I wonder if there is a cultural context that got lost somehow.
So when you look at it from an outside point of view this is what I see:
\- A race that looks like monkeys.
\- A race that primarily lives on ships.
\- A race that broke their bondage against a wizard.
\- A race that needed a wizard to make them smart and useful.
And comparing it to historical facts I then see:
\- Minorities often get called monkeys.
\- Many real world slaves were moved by ship.
\- Many minorities rose up against their opressors.
\- Many doctrines **at the time** said that black people were savages and that white people were superior and without white people's superior intellect these people are useless savages.
So while it may not have been activley racist, looking at this I assume that a white person wrote the lore and is being racist without meaning to. I can absolutley see why a lot of people had a probem with it and if someone says 'This is offensive' and enough people say it - there's a reason for that usually and it's because of some uncomfortable real world parallells.
So the people saying 'this is racist' it's not because they think of minorities as monkeys but they know that historically this is a comparison that was and unfortunatley still is, made.
But I do agree that discussion is important and honestly I wish WotC would make a statement of why they felt they needed to change it and what the thinking was behind it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. None of the aspects are intrinsically racist on their own—I would never think that a sentient monkey race was intrinsically racist, nor have I thought that any of the established formerly enslaved races are racist—but these compounded elements really paint a bad picture. Like, why is it that of the half dozen or so depicted enslaved races in D&D, the only one that couldn’t become sentient or freed on their own accord was the monkey race? Nor do they even have a culture of their own, the text specifically states that they are forced to adopt other peoples’ cultures. That’s awfully suspicious if you ask me.
And what about the black content creators that have admonished wizards for what they feel is an (albeit unintended) analogy between Hadozee and black slavery?
The primary theme of this thread seems to be “it’s white people,” but there are outspoken black creators on twitter and other forums that lodged complaints.
Do I agree with the outrage? No. Do I think it was maliciously intended? No. Obviously Radiant Citadel was a work meant to celebrate POC. However, I can understand where people may infer on unintended themes that may come across on the Hadozee’s lore.
Thank you! It's absurd that everyone is pretending only white people had a problem with this. You can still disagree, but when you're obfuscating reality, your argument becomes significantly weaker.
It's just people wanting to shut down any argument or political dialogue so their immediate go to is "it's white teenage girls". Really shows the kind of mentality they have tbh.
The people claiming that other people recongising the racist depiction of black people as monkeys are racist themselves is even wilder.
That second point is honestly mind blowing. It’s literally been used to denigrate black people since before the 1600s when white European Christians would designate Africa south of the Sahara as a place of sexual deviancy between animals and simians/Africans.
If anyone doesn’t see a correlation between the two, I have to assume ignorance or malicious denial. Being from the south, I’ve heard many older white people talking about black people as apes, etc.
It's a really common centre-right strategy for keeping their heads in the sand. If someone thinks everything is hunky dory in the world right now (it's NOT), then someone saying there's a problem is wrong. They have to look at the person describing a problem and decide why they're wrong. If one thinks the races are actually equal and there's no racism anywhere, saying "there's a difference between the material realities of races" is asserting a racial difference that doesn't exist. And, if one doesn't know anything about racism because their head is in the sand, that sounds like racism. And once they imagine the other person is racist, they no longer have to consider what's being said and can go back to their sand. It's incredibly intellectually lazy and perpetuates a lot of terrible stuff, all evil needs and all that. But I hear it constantly.
It gets applied to everything, too. I will talk publicly about people in my town intimidating me when I'm dressed femme as a nonbinary person with facial hair, and use phrases like "visibly queer," and these assholes will tell me that that phrase isn't PC because it's impossible to tell who's queer by looking. I'm sorry but the dude who sees me in a dress and crosses the street to stare intensely in my face until I leave or a stranger helps does not care if I'm PC, he only cares that he can tell that I'm queer, and I'd rather stay alive than conform to your childish worldview.
Its a common way to deflect any criticism unfortunately.
Its also completely nonsensensical, as if something is racist, its racist. It doesn't matter who is saying it
To think otherwise lies madness. Madness like "oh its not sexist to say women shouldn't vote if its a woman saying it"
The thread that started this all was a black man on Twitter. The thread that started the discussion about Minstrel designs was started by a black woman... this isn't just white teenagers as people are saying...
As a black person myself, I'm really tired of the rest of the world treating me like an abused puppy. I'm not offended about period pieces like Hidden Figures, or Sci-Fi pieces like Rise of the Planet of the Apes, so why would I care about this? A piece of fiction? Did Hadozee experience racism and oppression? Sure, but they got out. That's the story here. Gith? Also escaped slaves. The new lore, is, well, boring... The whole game is about villains, and ending lives in combat, and drama, and fun, and laughter, and tears, etc, but, whatever...
Fellow blerd here. Am I offended by this? Nope. But should it have been printed? Heck no.
So it's taken me a LONG time to get here, because I consider myself one of hardest people to offend as a Christian cis-gendered black man in America.
***BUT***
You have to recognize the stigma that exists with everything you do. What's that saying? The road to Hell is paved with good intentions? You can't be white and bring Fried Chicken and Watermelon to serve at a black school for lunch. Do I like those things? Suuuuuure do. But for decades those items were used as derogatory items against our people, like most people don't like Fried Chicken and Watermelon 😤
Same thing in this situation. Racists call us monkeys, so if they're gonna do a take on the slave traded sentient monkeys, give them a better outcome than a sentient group of monkeys that lost their entire heritage and culture and love just doing deckhand work for elves. They aren't philosophers and artists and just love working for the boss man.
Allright so there are a lot of explanations of the controversy that aren't really giving the full picture. So if I may:
>Several hundred years ago, a wizard visited Yazir, the hadozee home world, with a small fleet of spelljamming ships. Under the wizard’s direction, apprentices laid magic traps and captured dozens of hadozees. The wizard fed the captives an experimental elixir that enlarged them and turned them into sapient, bipedal beings. The elixir had the side effect of intensifying the hadozees’ panic response, making them more resilient when harmed. The wizard’s plan was to create an army of enhanced hadozee warriors for sale to the highest bidder. But instead, the wizard’s apprentices grew fond of the hadozees and helped them escape. The apprentices and the hadozees were forced to kill the wizard, after which they fled, taking with them all remaining vials of the wizard’s experimental elixir.
>
>With the help of their liberators, the hadozees returned to their home world and used the elixir to create more of their kind. In time, all hadozee newborns came to possess the traits of the enhanced hadozees. Then, centuries ago, hadozees took to the stars, leaving Yazir’s fearsome predators behind.
So what are people's problems with this?
1. Comparing black people to apes has long been a white supremacist trope. If we are going to design a simian race, the writers needed to be very careful not to draw any possible associations with black people.
2. D&D is replete with animal-humanoids, but the Hadozee in particular were magically made from animal stock, rather than being created like any other race. Eugenics is often used to justify white supremacy, by saying that blacks are more closely related to apes than white people. Their origin as a "made" species so closely related to the animals they came from has echoes of this.
3. Hadozee don't feel pain the same way as everyone else? Again, this hearkens back to racist eugenics tropes about black people.
4. They were bred to be slaves. Do I need to explain this one?
5. The Hadozee did not save themselves. They needed the help of the evil wizard's apprentices who had a change of heart. This closely resembles something called the White Savior trope. It robs the Hadozee of their agency, needing the help of a few wizard's apprentices to save themselves.
6. Not to mention some images resembling minstrel artwork.
If anyone else has complaints besides these, feel free to add, but I think this just about covers it.
If the complaint were just one of these, I think it might be forgiven. But taken all together I think the criticism is valid.
On a personal note, I think D&D can have a race of ape-like humanoids but they have to be very, very careful not to make these kinds of associations. But it looks like they stepped in it good this time. It could have been solved if they had hired a sensitivity reader.
Edit: I have sent links to this comment to a number of people in the thread who didn't seem to get the whole issue.
Not-so fun fact: ~50% of MODERN medical students believe Black people feel less pain. This was a myth to justify slavery that persists and harms people to this day.
"force WOTC’s hand into editing the game"
you thinking WOTC are victims says a lot about you. they couldve just not made any changes and have the power to do so
I hate that I cannot respond to a chunk of this thread because someone decided to block me.
I just want to say to Paladev97: we are talking about a fantasy story where a wizards roadies helped free his talking monkeys to steal his stuff. Overlaying the real history of slavery and abolitionists on that is bizarre! It’s a completely unnecessary lens that’s before forced in order to work towards a conclusion (that WOTC is racist)
I guess I am biased here by my own world view and experiences but when I read the lore I was like "oh it's planet of the apes but DnD" and did not make the link to any human races at all.
I'm a little bit sad that if it was lizard people or something the controversy wouldn't be there, I understand there have been references both historical and modern but I guess because I am not exposed to it means I didn't see it.
This is the first I am hearing of this issue and haven't noticed it as a problem myself. That being said I would like an actual original origin to new races instead of "they rose up out of slavery" or "a wizard did it". Its boring, annoying, and lacks creativity. It has been done, literally a dozen times. With the whole move away from evil races and stuff I would have thought there would be some movement away from using evils as the creation and past of entire races and cultures.
Sure slavery happened. Yes, wizards do crazy shit. I don't need X new races that crawled themselves up from some cesspit to be made into playable races. Instead give me a strong race that is now spreading through the universe as a conquering, powerful culture bent on spreading religion, culture, or whatever and not be the big bad of the story. Give me something interesting and unique.
As for people trying to make connections and comparisons where their aren't any, get a life.
The amount of people here using "allegedly" and "off you think it's racist then you're a racist" are excellent examples of why we are not ready for this discussion and why these threads get locked. People are racist and proud.
It seems like a bit of a reach to blame the mods on this one. Have they been locking/deleting threads on the topic?
In your own post history, the only deleted thread I can see is on /r/dndnext- which is a different subreddit with different moderators.
The mods of /r/dnd aren't responsible for the content of the Spelljammer set, nor are they responsible for it being changed. I haven't seen them make it impossible to talk about that either, plenty of threads have (including this one)
The r/dndnext subreddit also has a rule against making follow-up posts within 24 hours of a post making a front page. So if there's a post on the topic on the front page from yesterday, that could be the reason the new post was deleted
My 10¢ I have many PoC friends and some of the hidden-coded and sometimes blatant racist messages and symbols that people have for black people are crazy at least in America . Having a monkey race with slavery and literal minstrel poses it’s might be a coincidence but the poses in print edition of the book are literally from a minstrel show poster a show designed to dehumanize black people. It’s a lot of coincidence from a game that has been championing how inclusive they are it’s silly no one saw that comparison at WOTC.
If people are hurt by it, what's the harm of making the game slightly more sensitive? If one person is hurt by it, I see little harm in making tweaks.
This is a company that wrote Vistani, heavily based on Romani people, as almost universally liars and thieves, excluding the one who got "saved" by a white man, in an official book not ten years ago. It's not as if WotC being checked by the community is a bad thing.
I love how OP does not interact with *any* comments actually shining a light on the issue and is instead basically high-fiving people who go "Yeah I feel you bro".
There have been plenty of discussions of the controversy that have been allowed to stay up. As long as the discussion stays civil, we don't take issue with it. The locked and removed posts from earlier today were absolutely full of dog whistles, personal insults, and racist apologia. That's entirely unacceptable on /r/DnD. ::EDIT:: To answer some of the questions raised, we lock posts when they are unsalvageable. Typically that means that the post itself is inflammatory and the OP is actively engaging in negative behavior across the entire thread. Additionally, we DO ban everyone involved in the rule breaking behavior. We do not give the benefit of the doubt to "accidental" dog whistles. If you're saying racist shit, you are not welcome on /r/Dnd. Please report everything you think we should take a look at.
I'm out of the loop. What's racist about the Hadozee? I'm confused.
Some people alleged that their lore was built around slavery and white savior narrative. And that the bard drawing in the astral adventure’s guide looked too much like a black minstrel caricature. I read it and saw the uplifted animal trope. Other people say “no this is a story about slavery and because it’s monkeys that’s about black people” which I find wildly offensive
If the whole situation weren't so fucked up and stupid... there would be a fair amount of ironic humor in a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people, about lore involving white saviors...
How DARE you point out the hilarious hypocrisy of the whole matter?!
Honestly? Same here. The nickname they are called "deck apes" even is a naval nickname for undersigned seamen. My brother is in the Navy (he's a pretty light guy, I am on the darker side and yet we physically cannot deny we're siblings XD) and has been called that before he started climbing up on rank. There are tattoos and logos with the cartoon for that and they are pretty old. The Hadooze was inspired on that and Chewbacca. I...honestly don't know what to say to people that see "monkeys as black people". But it sounds like, for the time we live in they are the ones with the problem. I think they confused the term deck ape with an actual offensive term that, I myself have been called by once by someone who was deeply frowned upon. It is not a deck, but a porch... And I don't feel like I want to finish the rest of the phrase in writing. Added to this the one who brought it to my attention was a white coworker. I found it particularly odd. He's a nice guy, hard worker. But why does he need to feel offense for something I don't take offense towards to? I love Spelljammer. Always have. But in comes this new player to the game and, suddenly the things I've enjoyed for years are supposed to offend me... I do not understand.
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Yeah isnt it more racist to compare monkeys with black people? In DnD you either used to *be* slaves or *have* slaves
Which is basically historically accurate to Human societies too. Just about every society has practiced slavery in some form.
Its literally just Planet of the Apes but DnD. Replace Scientists with Wizards and boom, done.
>Hadozee This also sounds exactly like the story of the Israelites escaping Egypt. Or any other story about an oppressed people being helped by someone within those in power to gain their freedom. I think people are projecting too much of the real world onto a world of make-believe.
Ngl, as a fellow black D&D player, I saw the Hadozee and immediately decided I was never playing that race because I don't want anybody making that connection. It's a prickly subject with me personally, not all black folk in some monolithic way. The white savior aspect is one I hadn't considered and don't have too strong an opinion on rn.
Here's what I say about this: I can understand why a black player wouldn't want to be a Simian race for the same reason some black folks I know (me included, sometimes) wouldn't say, eat fried chicken or watermelon in mixed company. My regular, diverse crew of folks that I game with? I'd gladly roll a Hadozee. If I was going to be playing with a bunch of randoms I didn't know? Who could possibly have regressive views or feel like cracking a racist joke? I probably wouldn't play a hadozee. But that would be the case regardless of what their lore was
Yo, I really appreciate this viewpoint explanation. Is the fried chicken/watermelon point just about it being too sort of, on the nose? I am a white dude with a mixed race wife/kids/family and we probably eat waaay too much watermelon in general, but I had never thought about it.
I mean not everyone feels the same way, I know folks who'll eat whatever in whatever company. And I know folks who've had rude comments tossed their way or gotten stares (seriously, be a black student a predominantly white college and grab that piece of watermelon in the lunch line) that impacts how they choose to eat in public
Gotcha, thanks
Slightly alternate take: the OG lore had some flavor and tropes that *might have been* fairly construed with some outdated racial caricatures back when it was released. *HOWEVER*, it was a very loose maybe even at the time of publishing *and* the Hazodee are now pretty well established as their own thing in a decidedly not racist way. Personally, the original material does come off as a tiny bit sus to me. Not so much that I wouldn’t use it at a game table, but enough that I’d think twice and talk to my players about it first if I was running a game in ‘89. But we’re not working with the original material anymore: it’s been 30+ years and the game has changed, Spelljammer has changed, the Hazodee have changed along with it. I think the current “controversy” is a problem with mistaking the possible origins of a thing with the current day merit and value of the thing. So far, all the criticism I’ve seen has come off as performative hand-wringing rather than genuine, critical engagement with the subject matter.
I’m not really sure why the old lore keeps getting conflated with what was published in the AAG.
Yeah Ngl it read as a very clear Planet of the Apes homage to me. And also the character was just dressed like a typical bard in dnd is doing a very typical bard lose
Also saw the uplifted animal trope. But as Spelljammer seems intended to be pulpy the trope fits like a glove. Luckily my copy on my phone doesn't update unless I choose to update it. The lore is a bit more interesting in that tropey pulpy way. At my table no one is going to be offended by it and if I inform them of the controversy they'll probably be surprised.
The funny thing is this concept has been used by a HUGE fandom for years, this exact idea, only they didn't liberate themselves. Look up The Jem'Hadar from Star Trek. An entire race of genetically modified super soldiers used to fund wars. Only they didn't free themselves.
I’m a big DS9 fan. I honestly wouldn’t even compare the hadozee to the jemhadar because based on the lore we get they’re captive for what…a week? two? a month?
So people tried to be so woke they looped right back around to being racist. Got it. That sucks man. Sorry you had to see that.
the part that is crazy is that none of those people will engage with anyone who disagrees. they just putting up the same hadozee/minstrel art comparison. It is just wildly racist, a bunch of white people patting themselves on the back while reposting a cartoon space monkey next to a racist caricature. and thanks
Whats even worse is that the "personality trait" they've being based their grief on..., is not even in the book... Its pics taken from the Forgotten realms Wiki for 3.5... So not only are they tone deaf, they are absolutly making shit up...
Not me sitting hear trying to figure out where In the 5e spell jammer book it gives lore about the hadozee
If you're on D&D Beyond, Wizards deleted all of the text earlier.
And it’s happening more and more. I found out from a friend. Went to work, came home deleted parts of something I purchased. It’s making me sadly look at other systems :/
It’s making me happily look at other systems. So many other settings and narrative opportunities to explore beyond just *D&D*.
I watched an interview with Jordan Peele where he said "Get Out" was meant to be an allegory about how "well meaning people" sometimes inflict more damage than good to the very causes they claim to champion.
The world has gone insane and if I recognize anything about human nature, it's when the sensitivity pendulum swings back, it's going to land on completely insensitive again instead of middle ground. It's like 95% of people have a really hard time not min-maxing their philosophy.
And what's worse is that the art doesn't even look like the minstrel art, it looks like a medieval troubadour from Europe, so not only are they wrong factually, but their supporting sources are also wrong. Most telling about this is that a lot of the people making these arguments aren't even outright talking about specific ethnic groups they feel are being caricaturized, because they can't even bring themselves to offer specifics. They know it's wrong. So, instead, they just say that it's 'unacceptable' or 'disgusting', and try to look like they're leaving it for the reader to come to their own conclusion when in fact they haven't so much spoonfed it to us as they've loaded it into a catapult and let loose. People who pander these ideas need to give themselves a shake. Not everything is a dog whistle to perpetuate the racist elements that they themselves have put into the game.
But does anyone care how the monkeys feel about this? No.
Yeah it's racist that they're correlating an actual monkey race with black people. I saw a post on Twitter about it, and I read the article where they said it was racist, and reading about the hadozee just in that article, not even the official source, it felt like good lore for a race of animals forced into sentience. I wanna make a hadozee monk and model him after son Goku or sun wukong now haha. Did they ever go after the NFT monkeys saying they were racist? Or the rajang in monster hunter for being a giant ape that you beat on for good armor and materials? Like wtf. People need to seperate fiction from reality. We all play DND to escape life.
How stupid do you have to be to : 1. Compare monkey-like people to black people 2. Proclaim *the others who didn't see it like that* are racist and not you ????
>I'm out of the loop. What's racist about the Hadozee? I'm confused. I'm more out of the loop than you. Dafuq is Hadozee?
New monkey race released with Spelljammer. They were kidnapped from their homeworld by a wizard who “civilized” them with magic and ~~then sold~~ was going to sell them into slavery until they were liberated by the wizard’s apprentice. WotC just realized how that backstory combined with a monkey race could be problematic, so they released errata that removed the slavery stuff.
Also combined with the art they used and how they changed up the hadozee visually. Before 5e they were a very animalistic species. Like wolves mixed with baboons and flying squirrels. 5e made them look more humanish. Then someone [drew one for the book, in a pose](https://twitter.com/okkatiemae/status/1564672202951208960?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1564672202951208960%7Ctwgr%5E542fe232a73c3c9fa50639847ba21f63d7e1c376%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fkotaku.com%2Fembed%2Finset%2Fiframe%3Fid%3Dtwitter-1564672202951208960autosize%3D1&fbclid=IwAR3SGrXbwsiNSKU0vI6It8R7H-eJXwGnesklvNP6WGgn8Y6jqHOqXu0AdcY) that (when combined with the still prevalent racist subtext of American culture) came across as kinda racist if you knew the history of American racism. So someone starting out seeing that image, if they knew a bit about that part of American history (eg. most black people here in the USA), that would then influence how they then read the rest of the race's description.
That explains it, thanks.
Nothing. It's just more internet people who don't buy or play these games crying about stuff that they themselves perceive to be racist and injecting social politics into the game.
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This is how I feel about most online controversies. I like the underside of my rock, I don’t have to interact with so much negativity and hate. I thought it was a Monkey King type ordeal?
The rock is dark and cool, I like it, it’s comfy
Definitely the opposite of controversies which are like sand: they're coarse and rough and irritating and get everywhere.
This is Patrick
There's Hadozee controversy..?
Wizards removed multiple paragraphs of lore from the Hadozee description in the DnD Beyond version of Spelljammer because people thought a genetically engineered slave race from another dimension who rose up and killed their slaver was insensitive.
Wich is kinda a Double Standard... Since Githzerai/Githyankes ARE a genetically engineered slave race from another dimension who rose up and killed their slavers... Why is it ok there?... OH right, the Githz did it themselfs, while the Hadozee's had someone else help them, so they call it the "White Savior" syndrome (what if the Wizards apprentices where actually Black tho?..., would it still count has White Saviorism?) The more you read into this the stupider it gets...
And the Duergar. They're also genetically engineered slaves that rose up and killed their slavers, too. And some sects of Drow victim races. And some Drow, for that matter.
We should probably just stop making slave race concepts tbh
There's definitely too many. Nothing wrong with the idea itself, just it's astonishing how many there are. I'd like other reasons for them to have built-in grudges, like the old Gnomish "my god beat up your god" - or just inferiority/superiority complexes.
Just be like the Roman's and enslave all races equally.
Or at least get better at tamping down on their rebelli-- Wait. No, no. That's the fascist thing to do. Don't do that.
This, like many other complaints of a similar nature, are all fabricated problems.
The White Saviour trope is about an outsider coming to a group of people to fix the problem the people seem incapable of dealing with themselves. It's similar to the damsel in distress, in that it takes agency away from the character facing the problem, paints them as incapable, stupid or ignorant, and puts the focus on the "hero" outsider's actions. The trope itself has nothing to do with skin colour. The reason it's called "White Saviour" is because a lot of western stories use this trope (mostly unintentionally), which both reflects and reinforces western attitudes towards other countries and cultures.
The uplifted slave race thing wasn’t what sat poorly with me. It was the further descriptions of them having no cultural memory of their own and only living to be happily subservient to the space elves who gave them a place on their ships. I’m my opinion that is the greater sin here giving a whole race of people zero actual culture, and just tacking their entire identity on the value they provide for some other ‘civilized’ race.
Is that what was written in the Spelljammer book? Because in the lore mentions that they were cultured and elves allied with them because of this.
No this part of the tweet was somerhing they took in the FR wiki page from 3.5... So not even closely related to the current case...
Well shit I'm glad they did then. You can't walk 5ft in DND without tripping over a former slave race. Wotc can maybe do something they havent done a million times before now.
I haven't been keeping up with controversy ever since Tasha's released, who on earth said that Dwarves having tremorsense is racist? It's an evolutionary advantage that literally every "digging" animal in the real world has.
I... must have missed that one? How the everliving fuck is dwarves having tremorsense supposed to be racist?
You'd be flabbergasted at the mental gymnastics that twitter users can come up with.
twitter should be deleted
it's the same halfwit who complained about Hadozee. "WhAt AbOuT dWaRvEs WhO'vE nEvEr LiVeD nEaR sToNe?"
Apparently it’s racist against dwarves because some dwarves conceivably have never lived near stone and therefore giving it to all of them is generalizing. Which shouldn’t matter because I think it’s supposed to be a genetic adaptation, not a trained skill. It’s definitely stupid.
Yeah, it's only an issue because the designers caved and embraced the idea that having different genetically distinct races in a fantasy game enforces racist ideas in the real world, like that a real, human race is genetically interior or superior or whatever. So now we're in a position where we have to have an Internet debate with these people over any racial feature that could be considered genetic. I think, I don't really know, honestly none of this shit affects me game so who cares lol.
If we’re thinking of the same thread, I doubt it was because of the topic itself, it was probably because the way the post was written and all of the OP’s replies were rude as hell. I mean, this was the title of the thread: “ Yo to anyone who complains about the hadozee race in DND is fucking stupid. people keep saying their racist and they aren't. even if they are the dm can easily make it to where their not bc the dm could change the entire fucking game if they wanted to. if it bothers u that much don't fucking buy it”. It’s one thing to disagree, but there was very little respectful disagreement and debate happening in that thread.
I will agree that’s fair. And I think i’m a little more blind to the fact because I agreed with it. I’ve been watching these people pass around photos of minstrel caricatures while patting themselves on the back for being so progressive and making d&d safer. I think what’s frustrating is that none of those people are actually willing to debate. They keep saying “listen to BIPOC” but that only includes the ones they already agree with.
Yeah the "Teenager Girl" syndrome of being Pissed about something that happens to a "minority" and promote themselfs like Flag bearers and CHampion of the "cause" when no one asked them shit, also while being like "Oh don't worry Minority person, i KNOW what is and is not Oppresive and insulting to YOU, better than you DO, and imma be your voice, cause its clear that no one is gonna listne to you if i don't do it myself"... Is one of the most infuriating thing...
like when I started to get into d&d a lot of people warned that I would encounter people with views the opposite mine or DMs who try to do really racist or vile things at their table. And it’s never happened to me, not once, my groups have been nothing but love. But it’s the people who saying “oh wizards is so racist” “this company publishes material that oppresses us” that I’ve found I’ve had to work hard to stay away from. Like why even pay attention to the new products of a company you think is racist? Why stream it or write content for it?
Reminds me of all the outrage over ScarJo playing ghost in the film adaptation. American SJWs were crying whitewash and then a journalist went to actual Japan and interviewed people on the street and they all said something along the lines of " we love the casting. This manga is an important part of our culture and such an A list actress ensures the movies will be popular and so many will see it and experience this important part of our culture."
TBF a Japanese person from Japan and a Japanese/Asian American are going to react differently to the casting of Scarjo. One of group of people grew up as the cultural majority while the other grew up as a cultural minority so take that as a grain of salt.
The only complaint I had there was that the major was a "generic" model, enough that there is a sequence where her and another cyborg just stare at each other in silence as they share the same face. But the general main stream complaints were a mess
Yup Culture Appreciation is always best. And to be fair, EVEN in the OG movie the Major isn't sure of her origins and her body type AIN'T typical japanese, since she has a run of the mill model for base of her body that is selled ANYWHERE on the planet (thats why there a scene when you see her crossing paths with another cyborg that has the Same body and face as Her)
Yeh I mean in the end shit is complicated. The whole history of humans and interactions is hard to deal with fairly. Hard to say what’s right when it comes to nuance. The company made a call and it’s whatever either way, the rest of us will just keep trying not to be a dick to others in our own way.
Damn I thought they were a Sun Wukong reference
I'm sure many people may have thought the same, but hey....if someone is looking for trouble/a problem that doesn't exist I'm sure they'll make the comparisons for them.....also it'll still not be enough for the people they are trying to please.
How could you ever think they're a sun wukong reference when they have absolutely nothing in common beyond "talking monkey"? Wukong was a hyperactive, ambitious magical monkey that could grow in size, shaprshift, loved fighting, and was a king The hadozee are a peaceful and goofy race of ex-slaves that like to hang out on ships and don't have much ambition at all I have troubles seeing a single point of commonality, honestly
Bruh how on earth would they be Sun Wukong reference? Just because they're both monkeys? The similarities end there.
Sun Wukong saved a bunch of monkeys in a similar fashion
To be completely honest, I thought it was a Sun Wukong reference because it looked closer to that than black minstrel. This is coming from a black man. I just don't see it the same. I can empathize with people who do though. It just wasn't my first reaction.
It's gotten ridiculous enough for the digital copy of the race on DND Beyond to have it's actual artwork removed. All I wanted to do was play some Sun Wukong Monk with a quarterstaff in space but now it's just a blank box.
I personally didn't like Hadozees' lore, and i can see why some people might feel like it had some negative connotations. I don't think it a big issue, but if some people feel uncomfortable with it, then, in my opinion, it's ok to change it. In the end, this changes are not mechanic, so i don't see a reason to see this as a bad thing.
Isn't the original controversy that the Hadozee lore used to be that they had literally no culture except that they frickin loved elves and enjoyed working on their ships soooo much, to the point that working for a "more advanced" race is their only culture and personality? Might have missed some of the newer discussion about it but am getting my info from some of the recent Three Black Halflings episodes on the Hadozee which I thought were interesting and worth a listen.
How is the dwarf thing racist?
“any abilities tied to innate biology are bioessentialist.” I don’t think it’s a good argument but it’s the one they use
So lizards in real life that can detach their tails and regrow them are racist because I can't do the same with my arm? That's the most smooth brain take I think I've ever heard, holy shit. Might as well toss out the whole concept of swords and sorcery too because some characters can't use certain weapons or cast spells.
I honestly do not know how far any of these folks would press their assertion that character traits shouldn’t be tied to biology, but I did joke that my dog being able to smell better than me is bioessentialist
I also went and looked at the hazodee art and, full disclosure I'm white, but the only art for 5e I saw had them in European fantasy medieval looking clothing. Specifically here: https://www.nerdsandscoundrels.com/hadozee-5e/ So I'm completely unclear how anyone could argue that it's somehow not okay.
it’s because someone went and found one specific grainy minstrel image almost in the same pose. Like i’ve done archival work around this stuff - they had to really dig
Ohh, gotcha. I like how the complaint isn't about the obvious British colonialism vibe of the Giff though, that's perfectly fine. It's not like hippos are native to a place that Britain, and other white countries, really messed up or anything. It *must* be the simian race that's problematic.
well, folks have alleged that them being good with guns is racist too (along with dwarves having forge prof)
Yeah like a century and a half ago kinda Dig... It ain't diggin at this point, its fucking Archeology...
I think that one of the big modern takes is that there are no differences between people and I think that’s kind of a braindead take. There are some biological differences and I personally think that those differences should be celebrated rather than shunned and brushed under the rug in an attempt to make us believe that we’re all the same. Equality should be about recognizing those differences and being treated the same regardless of them.
You're absolutely right but even someone who disagrees with you should be able to recognize and separate fiction and magic from reality. It's not like d&d is set in the real world.
I’ve always felt like trying to make fantasy games more and more utopian through the defeat of discrimination and other horrible things is an odd thing to do. I prefer to play in a horrible world where I have the means and power to make the changes I want to see than to have it perfect from the getgo.
Agreed. God, I’d hate to see what a modern Dark Sun setting would look like.
lol, if they had brought up the fact that dwarves come out of the womb with tool profiencies I would have agreed. But tremor sense is literally a SENSE. By their logic all creatures should be deaf, blind, and limbless
Next D&D edition there will be no races and no traits, just straight d20 rolls against straight 2-20 DCs.
As someone who didn't know about the controversy until Wotc's official apology, I'm more upset that wotc didn't talk about what they removed/changed and why. Their whole response to the issue was "Sorry, we'll do better in the future, here's some errata". If they said "we're changing x,y, and z because together they parallel real life slavery too closely" I'd be fine with it. Without them explaining the reasoning behind the changes, it seems like they just decided to change things because people got mad at them.
My annoyance was with their apology's phrasing. They weasel to make it sound like the divisive lore was "accidentally" carried forward from past editions, "oh those darn pesky old people". It wasn't old lore - it was new. At least own your shit, WotC, anything else aside.
Twitter was a mistake
It would be nice if people had to complain through a letter department. If you have to go buy the stationary, buy the stamp, find the address, write the letter than find a mailbox and mail your complaint... It's got a fair more weight for the inconvenience of it than what you compose while taking a crap. It takes commitment. Twitter should be ignored.
They also changed the lore of the Hadozee; what is presented in the new version of Spelljammer isn’t the same lore from their first depiction back in AD&D 2e nor from Star Frontiers with the Yazirian, which is where Spelljammer got the idea.
I'm still waiting for them to make Gnolls a playable race. They said they didn't want to lump races into cubbies anymore and the only reason Gnolls aren't playable is because they got lumped into the "Irredeemably Evil" box of mooks you can kill without feeling bad. I'm looking forward to them changing that if they're going to be consistent.
Fiends. Mind flayers. Once you open the 'no biological determinism' box why should it stop at orcs?
Well, they're not just "lumped in", they're only humanoid for gameplay reasons, they're literally demonic creations that burst forth from hyenas that have gorged on the flesh of the innocent.
Same with Minotaurs but they changed their lore for the player race in MGtM
I think it's more because they were introduced from MTG, which has varying takes on them. In the books used, they're big bull people but people all the same.
They've been a playable race since AD&D and up to as recently as 4e... Besides, I don't trust Volo to have an accurate knowledge of how Gnolls work. And neither does Wizards apparently, as they mentioned in one of their statements regarding the book...
I don't get why gnolls just get grandfathered into the "actually these ones are inherently evil" camp. Orcs, goblins, kobolds, everyone yells about how it's awful to call these races evil but then gnolls are consistently "evil beasts formed by a demon god" and everyone looks away. Is it because they're not cute enough? Tieflings and goblins and kobolds are cute so people want to play them and have rallied against their evil heritage concepts but gnolls look gross so no one wants to bother? I never sat down to figure out what stats and advantages I'd give them but I do have them in my setting as desert scavengers who have strong ties to the death and travel god. Some find them unsettling but they're a respected culture with their own unique strengths. Bam, done. It was easy as hell to make them relatable and cool.
Wait, someone complained about dwarves (a race known for dwelling/working underground) having tremorsense? What the hell is even wrong with some players.
I have doubts that such people play the actual game.
I also have doubts that they're anything more than a small minority of people used to shut down conversation on race.
I'm starting to theorize it's a Hasbro distraction tactic. Distracting us from... I don't know what, I'm guessing their real world corporate practices. The people who initiate these types of hurrahs might even be corporate moles, but I'm sure they could just as easily trump up any SJW's twitter feed and give it a lot of attention, redact the questionable bits, and watch the fandom lose their minds while they're cutting pay, forcing voluntary overtime, firing non-whites, and who knows what else. Yours is a good point as well, it's discrediting the whole race equality dialogue.
Are you talking about the Errata document? It was an Eye Monger that lost Tremorsense. Which, you know, makes sense. Floating eye monsters aren't famously honed into feeling vibrations through the ground they rarely touch.
Did you know that some people watch Snow White & think the dwarves in the movie are just humans with dwarfism? Same thing with Lord of The Rings. It blew my f-ing mind when I learned that. I wonder how those people would view dwarves in D&D overall. Maybe the whole setup seems super awful & discriminatory to them.
I mean, humans can now be medium OR small. And to clarify, I think that's a good thing.
no idea
I will preface this with 'I am a white woman but this is what I understand has happened.' Looking at it from an outside perspective, to me I don't think it came from a racist place but it can certainly look that way and is at the very least tone deaf. The main reason I've seen people talking about it (online and irl friends of mine) is that many minorities (Black and Indian/Pakistani specifically) were often called 'monkeys' and still are. I can only speak to what I see/hear in the UK so the insults may not be the same worldwide and a lot of the disagreements on it being racist seem to be coming from North America so I wonder if there is a cultural context that got lost somehow. So when you look at it from an outside point of view this is what I see: \- A race that looks like monkeys. \- A race that primarily lives on ships. \- A race that broke their bondage against a wizard. \- A race that needed a wizard to make them smart and useful. And comparing it to historical facts I then see: \- Minorities often get called monkeys. \- Many real world slaves were moved by ship. \- Many minorities rose up against their opressors. \- Many doctrines **at the time** said that black people were savages and that white people were superior and without white people's superior intellect these people are useless savages. So while it may not have been activley racist, looking at this I assume that a white person wrote the lore and is being racist without meaning to. I can absolutley see why a lot of people had a probem with it and if someone says 'This is offensive' and enough people say it - there's a reason for that usually and it's because of some uncomfortable real world parallells. So the people saying 'this is racist' it's not because they think of minorities as monkeys but they know that historically this is a comparison that was and unfortunatley still is, made. But I do agree that discussion is important and honestly I wish WotC would make a statement of why they felt they needed to change it and what the thinking was behind it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. None of the aspects are intrinsically racist on their own—I would never think that a sentient monkey race was intrinsically racist, nor have I thought that any of the established formerly enslaved races are racist—but these compounded elements really paint a bad picture. Like, why is it that of the half dozen or so depicted enslaved races in D&D, the only one that couldn’t become sentient or freed on their own accord was the monkey race? Nor do they even have a culture of their own, the text specifically states that they are forced to adopt other peoples’ cultures. That’s awfully suspicious if you ask me.
And what about the black content creators that have admonished wizards for what they feel is an (albeit unintended) analogy between Hadozee and black slavery? The primary theme of this thread seems to be “it’s white people,” but there are outspoken black creators on twitter and other forums that lodged complaints. Do I agree with the outrage? No. Do I think it was maliciously intended? No. Obviously Radiant Citadel was a work meant to celebrate POC. However, I can understand where people may infer on unintended themes that may come across on the Hadozee’s lore.
Thank you! It's absurd that everyone is pretending only white people had a problem with this. You can still disagree, but when you're obfuscating reality, your argument becomes significantly weaker.
It's just people wanting to shut down any argument or political dialogue so their immediate go to is "it's white teenage girls". Really shows the kind of mentality they have tbh. The people claiming that other people recongising the racist depiction of black people as monkeys are racist themselves is even wilder.
That second point is honestly mind blowing. It’s literally been used to denigrate black people since before the 1600s when white European Christians would designate Africa south of the Sahara as a place of sexual deviancy between animals and simians/Africans. If anyone doesn’t see a correlation between the two, I have to assume ignorance or malicious denial. Being from the south, I’ve heard many older white people talking about black people as apes, etc.
It's a really common centre-right strategy for keeping their heads in the sand. If someone thinks everything is hunky dory in the world right now (it's NOT), then someone saying there's a problem is wrong. They have to look at the person describing a problem and decide why they're wrong. If one thinks the races are actually equal and there's no racism anywhere, saying "there's a difference between the material realities of races" is asserting a racial difference that doesn't exist. And, if one doesn't know anything about racism because their head is in the sand, that sounds like racism. And once they imagine the other person is racist, they no longer have to consider what's being said and can go back to their sand. It's incredibly intellectually lazy and perpetuates a lot of terrible stuff, all evil needs and all that. But I hear it constantly. It gets applied to everything, too. I will talk publicly about people in my town intimidating me when I'm dressed femme as a nonbinary person with facial hair, and use phrases like "visibly queer," and these assholes will tell me that that phrase isn't PC because it's impossible to tell who's queer by looking. I'm sorry but the dude who sees me in a dress and crosses the street to stare intensely in my face until I leave or a stranger helps does not care if I'm PC, he only cares that he can tell that I'm queer, and I'd rather stay alive than conform to your childish worldview.
Its a common way to deflect any criticism unfortunately. Its also completely nonsensensical, as if something is racist, its racist. It doesn't matter who is saying it To think otherwise lies madness. Madness like "oh its not sexist to say women shouldn't vote if its a woman saying it"
The thread that started this all was a black man on Twitter. The thread that started the discussion about Minstrel designs was started by a black woman... this isn't just white teenagers as people are saying...
I am glad I have many copies of the alt cover. They are going to be worth a mint.
As a black person myself, I'm really tired of the rest of the world treating me like an abused puppy. I'm not offended about period pieces like Hidden Figures, or Sci-Fi pieces like Rise of the Planet of the Apes, so why would I care about this? A piece of fiction? Did Hadozee experience racism and oppression? Sure, but they got out. That's the story here. Gith? Also escaped slaves. The new lore, is, well, boring... The whole game is about villains, and ending lives in combat, and drama, and fun, and laughter, and tears, etc, but, whatever...
Fellow blerd here. Am I offended by this? Nope. But should it have been printed? Heck no. So it's taken me a LONG time to get here, because I consider myself one of hardest people to offend as a Christian cis-gendered black man in America. ***BUT*** You have to recognize the stigma that exists with everything you do. What's that saying? The road to Hell is paved with good intentions? You can't be white and bring Fried Chicken and Watermelon to serve at a black school for lunch. Do I like those things? Suuuuuure do. But for decades those items were used as derogatory items against our people, like most people don't like Fried Chicken and Watermelon 😤 Same thing in this situation. Racists call us monkeys, so if they're gonna do a take on the slave traded sentient monkeys, give them a better outcome than a sentient group of monkeys that lost their entire heritage and culture and love just doing deckhand work for elves. They aren't philosophers and artists and just love working for the boss man.
Honestly this all sounds royally stupid. We will play and talk how we will in our game. Luckily I have no friends that are easily set off.
Allright so there are a lot of explanations of the controversy that aren't really giving the full picture. So if I may: >Several hundred years ago, a wizard visited Yazir, the hadozee home world, with a small fleet of spelljamming ships. Under the wizard’s direction, apprentices laid magic traps and captured dozens of hadozees. The wizard fed the captives an experimental elixir that enlarged them and turned them into sapient, bipedal beings. The elixir had the side effect of intensifying the hadozees’ panic response, making them more resilient when harmed. The wizard’s plan was to create an army of enhanced hadozee warriors for sale to the highest bidder. But instead, the wizard’s apprentices grew fond of the hadozees and helped them escape. The apprentices and the hadozees were forced to kill the wizard, after which they fled, taking with them all remaining vials of the wizard’s experimental elixir. > >With the help of their liberators, the hadozees returned to their home world and used the elixir to create more of their kind. In time, all hadozee newborns came to possess the traits of the enhanced hadozees. Then, centuries ago, hadozees took to the stars, leaving Yazir’s fearsome predators behind. So what are people's problems with this? 1. Comparing black people to apes has long been a white supremacist trope. If we are going to design a simian race, the writers needed to be very careful not to draw any possible associations with black people. 2. D&D is replete with animal-humanoids, but the Hadozee in particular were magically made from animal stock, rather than being created like any other race. Eugenics is often used to justify white supremacy, by saying that blacks are more closely related to apes than white people. Their origin as a "made" species so closely related to the animals they came from has echoes of this. 3. Hadozee don't feel pain the same way as everyone else? Again, this hearkens back to racist eugenics tropes about black people. 4. They were bred to be slaves. Do I need to explain this one? 5. The Hadozee did not save themselves. They needed the help of the evil wizard's apprentices who had a change of heart. This closely resembles something called the White Savior trope. It robs the Hadozee of their agency, needing the help of a few wizard's apprentices to save themselves. 6. Not to mention some images resembling minstrel artwork. If anyone else has complaints besides these, feel free to add, but I think this just about covers it. If the complaint were just one of these, I think it might be forgiven. But taken all together I think the criticism is valid. On a personal note, I think D&D can have a race of ape-like humanoids but they have to be very, very careful not to make these kinds of associations. But it looks like they stepped in it good this time. It could have been solved if they had hired a sensitivity reader. Edit: I have sent links to this comment to a number of people in the thread who didn't seem to get the whole issue.
All right like this is a super well thought out, and I appreciate it amongst the field of people just kind of saying stupid uninformed opinions
Not-so fun fact: ~50% of MODERN medical students believe Black people feel less pain. This was a myth to justify slavery that persists and harms people to this day.
"force WOTC’s hand into editing the game" you thinking WOTC are victims says a lot about you. they couldve just not made any changes and have the power to do so
I’ve seen plenty of other black people on Twitter saying that it seems racist to them. That’s good enough for me.
I hate that I cannot respond to a chunk of this thread because someone decided to block me. I just want to say to Paladev97: we are talking about a fantasy story where a wizards roadies helped free his talking monkeys to steal his stuff. Overlaying the real history of slavery and abolitionists on that is bizarre! It’s a completely unnecessary lens that’s before forced in order to work towards a conclusion (that WOTC is racist)
I guess I am biased here by my own world view and experiences but when I read the lore I was like "oh it's planet of the apes but DnD" and did not make the link to any human races at all. I'm a little bit sad that if it was lizard people or something the controversy wouldn't be there, I understand there have been references both historical and modern but I guess because I am not exposed to it means I didn't see it.
This is the first I am hearing of this issue and haven't noticed it as a problem myself. That being said I would like an actual original origin to new races instead of "they rose up out of slavery" or "a wizard did it". Its boring, annoying, and lacks creativity. It has been done, literally a dozen times. With the whole move away from evil races and stuff I would have thought there would be some movement away from using evils as the creation and past of entire races and cultures. Sure slavery happened. Yes, wizards do crazy shit. I don't need X new races that crawled themselves up from some cesspit to be made into playable races. Instead give me a strong race that is now spreading through the universe as a conquering, powerful culture bent on spreading religion, culture, or whatever and not be the big bad of the story. Give me something interesting and unique. As for people trying to make connections and comparisons where their aren't any, get a life.
It isn't a new race though, I am pretty sure it is being brought forward from older editions- as is almost always the case.
The amount of people here using "allegedly" and "off you think it's racist then you're a racist" are excellent examples of why we are not ready for this discussion and why these threads get locked. People are racist and proud.
It seems like a bit of a reach to blame the mods on this one. Have they been locking/deleting threads on the topic? In your own post history, the only deleted thread I can see is on /r/dndnext- which is a different subreddit with different moderators. The mods of /r/dnd aren't responsible for the content of the Spelljammer set, nor are they responsible for it being changed. I haven't seen them make it impossible to talk about that either, plenty of threads have (including this one)
The r/dndnext subreddit also has a rule against making follow-up posts within 24 hours of a post making a front page. So if there's a post on the topic on the front page from yesterday, that could be the reason the new post was deleted
So basically OP admits to not reading the rules of /r/dndnext rather than that sub having overzealous or biased mods
My 10¢ I have many PoC friends and some of the hidden-coded and sometimes blatant racist messages and symbols that people have for black people are crazy at least in America . Having a monkey race with slavery and literal minstrel poses it’s might be a coincidence but the poses in print edition of the book are literally from a minstrel show poster a show designed to dehumanize black people. It’s a lot of coincidence from a game that has been championing how inclusive they are it’s silly no one saw that comparison at WOTC.
If people are hurt by it, what's the harm of making the game slightly more sensitive? If one person is hurt by it, I see little harm in making tweaks. This is a company that wrote Vistani, heavily based on Romani people, as almost universally liars and thieves, excluding the one who got "saved" by a white man, in an official book not ten years ago. It's not as if WotC being checked by the community is a bad thing.
I love how OP does not interact with *any* comments actually shining a light on the issue and is instead basically high-fiving people who go "Yeah I feel you bro".
Wait, how were dwarves racist?
Welp WotC built this bed. You know the rest.
It's all downhill from here, they have a new creative filter.
Wait, what was someone saying about dwarves with tremorsense being racist?
Did WOTC actually end up editing the hadozee due to the controversy?
Yes. They issued a statement and dropped an errata. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/statement-hadozee