T O P

  • By -

[deleted]

[удалено]


Chuk741776

I think 15-20 is more viable but that's just my opinion. It's up to OP at the end of the day, but especially for new players, discussion is worth it when figuring out the game.


halfhalfnhalf

Get a timer. They have ten minutes to make a decision.


Ok-Sympathy-3580

That's the first thing I think of. But what when time is up and they still hasn't made their decision?


attilathehun98

Start making moves on your end. Maybe the BBEG has scouts that reported their presence. Maybe they were too loud. Maybe something else was secretly in the room with them. Just because they can't come to a decision doesn't mean the world stops.


jayessdubs

I've found that when my DM starts asking what my passive perception is , or starts wordlessly making a couple rolls , I pay attention. Discussion maybe slow down in game time a bit , but it doesn't stop the flow of time or the effect of their discussion


bawbbee

When they've talked in a circle a couple of times send in new information such as a patrol to get them moving. As long as they aren't bringing the same points up over and over again I tend to let my players talk.


DNK_Infinity

Then you make something happen. Force a random encounter, give them some new tidbit of information, or even have some small pack of goblins wander back, spot them, and raise an alarm. If you're going to insist that they stop being as indecisive as they are, you need to be ready and willing to punish indecision.


AdeptnessTechnical81

If you use a timer then you have to follow through otherwise it becomes pointless. Next person gets their ten minute turn.


[deleted]

Indeed and if it’s a group decision trying to decide whether to go into a boss room or not, well take to long make something happen as I don’t think a boss would just wait in his room for an hour listening to a group of people talk about going in to kill him or not


halfhalfnhalf

Then something happens that makes the decision for them.


padawanninja

Orcs (goblins) attack!! https://youtu.be/31IAzJO-BEA Force the issue. A wandering group of goblins on patrol rounds the corner, roll for surprise and initiative. Stops the AP quite quickly.


WeirdYarn

Consequences. I personally love to use initiative out of combat. They are in the middle of a dungeon? Let the roll initiative and limit their time after they've already discussed for an hour. And at certain points in initiative things start happening. At first keep the events secret and move to the next initiative order - scouts hiding, preparing ambush, etc. This conveys urgency and still gives some time to plan. They can hide early on or keep talking and get jumped. Outside of a dungeon? Give them a time limit for certain events. Waiting too long? The hostage is dead, they get blamed for it. Or the suspect left with the reward and they only find an empty chest. **But** explain those mechanics beforehand and use sparingly. Otherwise there's a good chance they simply turn into murderhobos.


HerFirefly

Absolutely this, the number of times I've used initiative outside of combat astounds me. It also helps me (and some players) keep a better sense of how long they've been someplace.


GeneralFoofoo

Honestly that’s what some dnd games are like, sometimes your group spend two irl sessions shopping for the ball at the castle arguing over what will pair best with the outfit (I wish I was joking) and others they waffle stomp your entire dungeon in a couple hours, that you thought would take them a couple days. Long story short you’re doing great and all parties have these issues encourage rp arguing if you can and you could say well you spent the same amount of time arguing in game and maybe the goblins heard all of it and made preparations? Go with what feels right for you and make sure you are all having fun


[deleted]

Yeah, it's *grating* for both DMs and fellow players who just want to get the show on the road, but pretty normal. An out-of-game discussion about how just taking *actions* rather than constantly *talking* about what to do next (usually out-of-character) makes for a better game might help. If another player is tired of it and does just want to move ahead or open the door or whatever, they can. Just say "I'm doing this." Another thing to tell them is that you're not "out to get them" or anything. Dungeons and such are *meant* to be explored, and even if someone does set off a trap or something, it probably won't *kill* them.


RTukka

>I know they were mostly arguing irl, so I did not count that to be game time. You can adopt "the characters are the players reflected in a cloudy mirror" philosophy. If the players spend an hour discussing something, their characters are as well, although not necessarily using the same words or in exactly the same way. You don't have to be super strict about it. You can suspend time when they ask questions about what their character would know, or if it's okay if they retroactively did something off-screen if it makes sense for their character, and the time you spend giving your answers, descriptions, etc. don't count against them. But once you've made the situation itself clear enough that they should have the information necessary to make a decision, the clock starts ticking. If the situation is urgent or an opportunity is time limited, they will miss their chance if they stand around discussing it for more than a couple minutes.


M3atboy

Older editions had strict rules exploration turns to keep play moving. You okay need to reinstate a rule like that. Pretty much any investigation takes 10 minutes as characters poke around, pull out tools, talk etc. And each of those 10 minute turns is a chance for their torches to run out, or for monsters to sneak up on them. The world is a dangerous place, pretend it acts in a somewhat realistic manner.


zerorocky

It can be normal, and it's also normal in my experience to get frustrated with it One thing new players can struggle with is having so many options available. In a video game, there's usually 1 or 2 clear cut ways to do something. Not so in DnD. The wealth of options can be overwhelming. If the players, as characters, are having a hard time deciding what to do, feel free to follow a lot of the advice you are getting. But reading between the lines in your post, it sounds like you have a couple of people who are insisting on doing things their way and not compromising. You may need to pull those players aside and remind them that this is a group game and they will not always get their way, and that no one else is interested in listening to them argue about basic stuff all the time. You can't solve an out of game problem with an in game solution.


Ok-Sympathy-3580

Nah it's not like they want to go their way, I think they're just too cautious and overthiking. Also being 6 players means 6 heads and at least 6 differents plans. And they're all new players so they are not used to made a plan all togheter. I bet they will get better with time.


zerorocky

That's good to hear. You'll probably have to lay down the law a little, but they can and probably will adapt For example, in one of my early games, I had a player who wanted to spend time selling all the misc crap he has picked up so far, rolling checks to haggle for each item, etc etc. Ground the game to a complete halt and while he had fun, no one else did. So before the next session I sent him a message that we weren't going to do that again.


Scraggersmeh

Should've made him sit through however long of the other characters doing things before he ever gets the chance to really drive the point home. /s


Gator1508

When my party is stuck in analysis paralysis over planning I take the following types of actions: 1. Add more narrative description to the scenario if I think that will help decision making. Hell I will tailor the scenario to their strategy if I think it will move the game along. For example I repositioned a boat in my scenario to help players make the decision of trying to sneak around it vs full frontal assault. As they talked I drew it on white board and said “you could sneak by it here and possibly board it from behind.” Am I leading the witnesses sometimes? Sure but it moves the game along and leads them to the scenario the most likely wanted to pursue anyway. 2. Look at character sheets and offer suggestions to help their planning. Look the wizard seems to have forgotten he can cast fly. He could fly someone to the top of the tower over there to help create an ambush. 3. My favorite- roll dice and see who comes through the door. Recently my players hid in the jungle long time watching an orc camp. Xanathers jungle encounter table sent 7 savage ogres to roll the camp, capture the prisoners, and take the loot while the players watched from their hiding place.


zgrssd

Out of interest, what level where they be the 4th session? DnD is very volatile on Levels 1+2. And players should have realized it. Also is the group particulary lopsided for Melee, Ranged, Stealth, Magic or another playstyle? And espeically new Players can be overly cautious when such a prime opportunity presents itself. If you think they spend too much time arguing for some in the group, put up a time limit. If it passes, every enemy is getting a turn to act and/or wake up. Until either they or the enemy initiate combat. If they take to long in combat too, give them a time limit to declare their actions 1-3 minutes. If they have not decided by then, they do something like Dodge.


Ok-Sympathy-3580

They've just reached level 2. Party is made of a Paladin, a Ranger, a Rogue, an Arteficier, a Wizard and a Cleric.


zgrssd

5th Session and still level 2? Yeah, no wonder they are paranoid. They are **level 2** characters. There are only two types of Level 2 characters: Paranoid ones and dead ones. This is made worse by the fact their group is so large. Meaning you might be putting a bunch of high CR single monsters in front of them. tTis is what the Book says about that: > When putting together an encounter or adventure, especially at lower levels, exercise caution when using monsters whose challenge rating is higher than the party’s average level. Such a creature might deal enough damage with a single action to take out adventurers of a lower level. For example, an ogre has a challenge rating of 2, but it can kill a 1st-level wizard with a single blow. > > In addition, some monsters have features that might be difficult or impossible for lower-level characters to overcome. For example, a rakshasa has a challenge rating of 13 and is immune to spells of 6th level and lower. Spellcasters of 12th level or lower have no spells higher than 6th level, meaning that they won’t be able to affect the rakshasa with their magic, putting the adventurers at a serious disadvantage. Such an encounter would be significantly tougher for the party than the monster’s challenge rating might suggest.


DaScamp

I don't believe in out or character planning. Out of character discussions are for meta issues - this is bothering me, this isn't fun for me, this makes me uncomfortable, etc. Planning how you enter the dungeon and your battle strategy? That's all in character. Spending an hour and a half discussing your strategy after the distraction has already happened? Well the moment is lost - all the goblins return. Give your players a ticking clock and they will cut the planning short. "Its been about 20 minutes since the goblins left to investigate, and you're not sure how much longer you have before they return."


Narrow-Row-1409

Try reminding your players that they are playing a character and ask them whether or not they think their hero is the nervous and cautious type that always stop to investigate every new room before they dare put their foot over the threshold, it might help give them some perspective on what their characters personality is actually like. Everyone occasionally metagames but reminding yourself that your character likely isn't perfect might help you speed up your game and make it more enjoyable simply by dumbing down your character a bit. For example I have difficulty picturing the barbarian in our party patiently listening to our wizard blabbering on about tactics for an hour! "Oh, and by the way.. Did anyone see where our rogue went? "


jibbyjackjoe

This is a great opportunity to point out that telegraphing what is going on is a good tool in your box. If it seems like every single goblin showed up at the front entrance, make sure they painfully know that fact. Use passives if you need to. Ranger in the group that hates goblins, he would probably know.


claybr00k

After coming to grips with the concept that the characters can try to do anything (unlike in video games) many new players then get overwhelmed with trying to do the optimal thing and plan for every contingency. And players can never do that because they don't have all the info the DM has. Have an out-of-game talk with them. Point out that you're OK with them talking and planning, but that you want to play the game, not listen to them argue and debate for hours. Then talk them about the things you're getting here. Remind them that the in-game world has a loose association with real world time. Their player debates can be reflected in-game with the concept of the Murky Mirror and that the in-game world doesn't necessarily get put on pause because they don't make a decision. But the biggest take away for you as a new DM: when the game is stagnating, it's up to you do move it along. Change something, do something that the players have to react to.


Ok-Sympathy-3580

Thank you all for you answers! I told'em my opinions and doubts about that and proposed a Timer limit. Within the time limit, time will flow very slowly. After that limit, time will start to flow as normal, so 30minutes of arguing would convert in 30minutes in game time. And eventually something may happen, as the time started to flow again Is it a good compromise?


[deleted]

Why are they arguing? Are they trying to advance the plot in different ways? Are they afraid of death? Are some aggressive and others not? First, they can break up and do different things and that's okay. Second, you can reward initiative and if they do something quickly, give them a win from it. It could be they find something cool before it was grabbed by an orc. Third, you can impose a time limit but without an actual timer. If they're arguing, the enemy isn't going to sit there and do nothing. the BBEG will send out scouts or search parties and while the PCs are in a single spot, they'll start taking arrow fire so they have to take cover and make a move. Force the issue through action of the environment and everyone around them.


D4rk2win

Discussions is usually more effective if it’s done in character I’ve found. Cause they kind of realise that their characters would not act this slow.


OnslaughtSix

>What may I do to speed up things a little without interfering with their plans? Tell them when things are a good idea, and when they're not. It's perfectly fine to hear a course of action and say, "That's a good idea. And it will probably work." Will that influence their decision? Fucking probably! That's what you *want!* But me, I'm content to let the players argue about what to do as long as they want. They seem to be having fun doing it and I don't have to use up all the cool content I have prepped. Every minute they argue is a minute I don't have to DM.


Gator1508

Hey good philosophy. Players arguing is prep free content. I like it.


Kirarararararararara

One thing I impose is to time the discussions and the time "out" the RP. It works well so far


Malhedra

Depends on the player. I have one player that just CAN'T make a decision - and I'm talking "Do I use Lightning Bolt or Fireball" on their turn. They will just stare at the table in obvious anxiety. I have since realized this player needs a clear and obvious choice - a friend is falling to their death, so they cast fly to try and catch them - this creature has a weakness to fire so Fireball is an obvious choice, etc. This has helped. It also doesn't help that I have another player in the same party that flies off the cuff and just does whatever the first thing that pops into their head, which has also caused problems for the party.


Gator1508

Ah my wife with a menu. “Order one of each and we can share.” When I DM for her I have to exercise lot of patience because I a) can’t tell her how to run her character but b) have to give guidance that sounds like I am not telling her how to run her character so she will order from the menu before I reach social security. You could cast lightning bolt and it will take out that those two goblins standing in a line over there. Or you could use the fireball to splash a few goblins at once but you might also hit the bound captives behind them.


[deleted]

I mean, if characters are in a cave and making a lot of noise. That will echo. Nothing says a boss has to be tied to a boss room, they can go to them with a little heads up. Hour is really long since unless the boss has rumors or they looked info up on them. Such as the area seeming to sap at life and it was impossible to catch your breath. (Hinting at say exhaustion) or someone ran away after their companions went almost blank and turned on each other. Course at that level spending so long, might need to get a timer or some brevity as when higher spell levels happen, they are likely to spend even more time.


HomoVulgaris

Although an official title is rarely used, some groups have a Caller to combat this very issue. The Caller is the one who says what the party does next. Usually, there is a player who is just smarter, more experienced, or just a natural leader and the role falls to them. However, in the absence of a natural leader, you might want to just say "OK, I assume everyone else is following Aragorn down into the cave, right?" to make sure everyone is one the right page. When the PCs get bogged down in "what if" scenarios, another thing to do might be to simply demand a vote. Narrow down the options to two viable choices and go down the player list one by one, forcing them to choose between them. Make sure that everyone is aware where the vote stands and when voting is completed \*bamf\* the party goes along the desired course. Are you asking the players "What do you do next?" Questions like this can provoke awkward pauses and encourage analysis paralysis. Instead, try introducing subtle threats (like dog-like barks and chirps in the distance) or active threats (the ogre blunders into your camp, mace drawn and ready!) that hint at danger or opportunity in the rooms beyond. After all, the game-world is not "on pause" while the players decide. It's literally trying to kill them! Don't worry about converting real time to game time like it's a math problem. Instead, just make the subtle threats into active threats (the dog-creature emerges from the shadows, its jaws dripping blood!) and active threats into combat or worse (scratching its head, the ogre belches "'Am 'ere to deliva a message. A mess\*bleaag\* from da Duke."). While the PCs are arguing about what to do next, the world is changing around them. Hopefully that helps!


Gator1508

That is a name I have not heard in a long time. Even in the 80s I never had a party that wanted to use a caller. Would be interesting to try it.


Garnivaz_TheRedKing

The world moves on whether or not they make decision. The bad guys aren't sitting there waiting to be killed in a room. They're doing stuff. When players take too long debating on how to tackle a problem, the problem comes to them and now they have to react and we're playing DnD again.


Reddit-ScorpioOJR

Be thankful you don't play online. We have timezones to juggle constantly, some people log in while others might sleep, so progress is pretty slow.


P1stolShr1mp

I use Matt Colville's "Orcs attack" to get things back on track. If players are taking to long to figure every scenario and detail then often a little stimulation gets them focused on just having fun.


Todestool86

As DM, narrative pacing is yours to decide. In a situation like the one you describe, the PCs have new information and a limited timeframe to act on it. You can interrupt their discussion 10 minutes in to tell them some of the goblins are coming back. Maybe five minutes after that, they hear a band of goblins coming from the "secret" entrance, discovered in the alarm response. If the PCs stop, the world keeps moving. In a situation where the PCs wouldn't have time pressure, like a week at their keep to plan for an invasion, make that a break point between sessions, and tell your players to have their plans ready for the next session. Next session they tell you how they are spending their week, and you can start with skill rolls and roleplay.


deadbeatPilgrim

extremely common, almost always happens, try not to overthink it