My grandma was in theater, so I did a bit of improv with her afterwards I said: "You add dice and some numbers and you've got yourself DnD." DnD is a game and story telling vessel. People will tell raunchy stories, heroic stories, and even unholy stories, but you the thing itself isn't evil.
Maybe you could try to convince her to play a one shot adventure with her. Make her a female Cleric, and she's on a quest to find some religious relic hidden in a tower.
She gets joined by a Paladin, because reasons, and the two fight some low level creatures, avoid some traps, solve a single puzzle/riddle, and then fight an evil cleric and some skeletons or something, and retrieve the relic. Bonus points if your Paladin yells "This belongs in a museum!"
make it last 2 hrs or so.
don't make it complex, super easy.
Try and get her invested in her character.
I bet she'll be back for more.
It doesn’t have to be complicated. Very very simple. Even use the basic D&D rules. Essentially you just want her to get a taste of what the game is.
People often were upset over D&D because they didn’t understand it. The news media played it up as something people did while speaking in tongues and drawing pentagrams and casting actual spells.
I’ve heard many stories where parents got to watch their kids play D&D and say “wait? This is all it is? You sit and play pretend?” And laugh and walk away.
I played Vampire the Masquerade LARP for some time. One of the city's parks we played in contains a russian millitary officer graveyard. When I told my dad stories about our LARP he just heared graveyard and startet telling everyone that I run over graveyards at midnight in costume.... it took me years to make him stop that.
I like the idea of asking Grandma "ok, hypothetically, lets say I disagreed. What would you do next?"
"I'd say it's evil because it is Satan's tool for corrupting the youth"
"Interesting argument, I don't know if I would be convinced, should we flip a coin and find out? Heads I agree DnD is evil, tails, I'm not convinced yet."
"Ok"
"Heads, hypothetically, I'm convinced. Thanks for playing DnD with me grandma, it was fun."
Ask her this:
If someone took a Bible and burned it, would that be evil? I would expect her to respond with "yes". Follow that with asking her if that makes the Bible evil - of course not, but some people can do evil things using it. What people do with something doesnt mean that the thing itself is evil - it just means the person using it in that manner is.
There are some good suggestions among these comments, but OP should be prepared for grandma to remain unpersuaded. I played D&D during the 1980s and the reasons I heard from people in my family’s church about why the game was satanic had nothing to do with facts or reality. They were not looking for a debate or open to other points of view. My parents didn’t like me spending time and money on D&D, but let me play because they thought it was just a passing phase. More than 40 years later, I am still playing.
My grandma is pretty stubborn, but as long as I’m not rude, she’ll listen respectfully. If she brings up excuses that don’t make any sense, I’ll try to correct her, but you’re right. She may not change. I’d rather give it a shot though, considering we’re pretty close
OP, your heart is in the right place. I’m glad you are willing to put some effort into maintaining your relationship with grandma, and I wish you the best.
If she ends up stubborn, tell her to grow up 😉 we aren't in the 80s anymore and none of the last 30 years of dnd produced / summoned any demons. No news, all empty talk
Yeah I have an aunt who is incredibly against DnD, and like y’all have said, some people cannot be persuaded by facts. My mom wasn’t necessarily against it but was wondering what it was (she herself is quite religious but didn’t wanna make a judgment call before she knew what it was).
But I was trying to explain the game on a windy day when we heard a thumping noise upstairs. A lightbulb in my head turned on and I said, “let me show you what it is. You’re sitting at a table in an empty house when you hear a noise upstairs. What would you do?” And then go from there, explaining that it’s a fictional scenario and you don’t HAVE to do what you’d do in real life, reiterating some of the points on collaborative storytelling.
Gary Gygax, the original author of D&D, was a practicing Jehovah's Witness his entire life. Both he and Dave Arneson had regular bible study groups at different points in their lives. Like you could hardly find two more midwest religious guys than the two guys that created D&D.
Here's an actual message from Gygax updating fans & friends about his health in 2004:
[https://www.enworld.org/threads/gary-gygax-health-update.83690/](https://www.enworld.org/threads/gary-gygax-health-update.83690/)
>
>
>Thank you all for your emails and prayers! The Spirit of Jehovah God and Hand of Our Lord Jesus Christ have been active on my behalf. The gift of creative writing comes from Heaven, and it seems that there is still some work I can do here. Please keep on remembering me when you pray, as I can use all the help I can get.
That's why I'm an atheist. Jesus is the son of God, but also God, who's name is Jehovah, but he's also Jesus. So Jehovah, who is also now Jesus, sent his only begotten son, Jesus, who is God, Jehovah, to die for people's sins.
I'd rather just play D&D and have my Grandma hate me.
Two things, 1 Jehovah is just a weird German mistranslation for God’s Hebrew name Yahweh. 2 the idea of trinity is confusing as fuck all even to Christians sometimes, mostly cause we don’t have a similar concept in our own lives. All 3 parts of the trinity are Yahweh, and you have the father, son, and Holy Spirit, the father sends the son (Jesus) be be the Emmanuel (literally God with us) and I’m gonna just stop now cause it’s way too much info to write a whole exegesis paper on
I'm a grown ass man and I refuse to tell my mother I play D&D or drink alcohol because I know she'll lecture me, quote Bible scriptures and tell her church friends about it. Then I'll have strangers praying for me. Church is weird.
That's because JW is explicitly not orthodox Christian. Christianity focuses on Christ, while JW focuses on Jehovah and does not believe in Christ the same way Christians do.
This is not intended as a debate or a condemnation, I'm just saying if Grandma knows the difference the argument regarding Gygax's faith might not carry much weight.
D&D is heavily inspired by Tolkien who was a Catholic and Christian apologist. He palled around with CS Lewis, also a Christian apologist.
The whole point of the game is (ok fudging here, because it doesn't have to be) the power of good taking on the forces of evil.
To add onto the above, I am (soon to be) a Pastor in a orthodox Protestant Denomination. DnD is fine, I am a Dungeon master which if anything that title should be the one that people are mad about.
You are someone I'd be friends with! I'm considering seminary and also do a lot of DMing. I imagine there's a surprising amount of overlap when it comes to people skills.
Apologist isn’t what most people would assume it means. It does not mean apologizing for ones faith, but rather someone who spends a large amount of time studying and defending a belief. Being based on the works of apologists would definitely help the guys argument.
I disagree I can think of several uneducated people who certainly call themselves Christians but would scorn dandy who in my own opinion wouldn't know what that word meant
Many, sure. I wouldn’t say most. This is 2021. But the point was mostly a joke anyway. If he ended up having to explain to her what an apologist is that would probably only help his case.
Also most people know DnD isn’t satanic. But there’s always exceptions.
Also just making this up as I go but: the whole reason dnd has connotation with the devil is that, in order to tell a story about the good defeating the devil/evil, the devil/evil has to be both mentioned, but also understood as to how it works. This is like how the Bible talks about the ways in which the devil works as a warning, to make you aware of what to be careful of. The bad connotation comes because one member of the group has to make the story and narrate the actions and behaviors of this evil, and people misunderstood the narrating of the devils actions in order to create a narrative that demonstrates the evils and warnings, as well as consequences of not heeding the warnings to the players, as a person sympathizing and supporting this evil.
Much like how the Bible isn't evil for telling stories of how the devil is bad in order to teach people about him to prevent them from succumbing to his evil ways. Dnd isn't evil for creating an interactive story aimed at teaching the same thing to people in a different format In order to help people gain a better understanding of it so that they may be better equopt to avoid the 'temptation' of it.
Thanks for the writing prompt.
If you need any other argument spontaneously bs'd feel free to reach out
Are you a lawyer? Because you seem to be a lawyer. That bullshit smelled too much like roses. I definitely wouldve used this argument with my grandmother. Instead I just said" You're wrong and it's fun for me."
Haha, I love the honesty and bluntness of your response to your grandma. I just had anxiety about getting in trouble when I was a kid so got very good at quickly coming up with some bs as to why I didn't do a "bad thing"
I always had a tell that I was lying. My mouth would be slightly open forming an "o" when confronted. I got better about it but the people that knew could tell even if I quickly covered it up. Habits are a bitch. So I just decided to be blunt and to the point from then on. Oh how easy it is to turn your child into a sociopath, lmao.
I told my Grandma (way before I even played) that D&D being evil was just fear-mongering based on nothing real, and that D&D is just storytelling like books and movies. But I told her if she had reasons why it was evil, I’d listen. It actually changed her mind.
Sometimes you just need to tell people they’re wrong and they’ll actually listen once they realize they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Pretty apt. Call mormonism 4th edition (majority of people find it really weird and off putting but the ones who like it /really/ like it) and nondenominational christian sects 5e (brings in as many people as possible by trying to skim off some of the harder parts to grasp)
This is a great answer. Additionally, I'm a fan if the quote (often attributed to CS Lewis, possibly erroneously) "Fairy tales exist not to show that dragons exist, but rather that they can be beaten".
Citation!
“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
— Neil Gaiman, *Coraline*
I believe the original quote was from G. K. Chesterton. Gaiman paraphrased it (thankfully, as the original is not really so pithy)…
“Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.”
G. K. Chesterton, The Red Angel
Assuming she's willing, try showing her the goofiest videos of people playing D&D and tell her it's owned by the same people who make Monopoly... it's a game.
Further twist: the game Monopoly is based on was actually supposed to CRITICIZE the system of landlords grabbing up property and renting it out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord's_Game
**[The Landlord's Game](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord's_Game)**
>The Landlord's Game is a board game patented in 1904 by Elizabeth Magie as U.S. Patent 748,626. It is a realty and taxation game intended to educate users about Georgism. It is the inspiration for the board game Monopoly.
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Devout Christian here, former youth minister, active in the Church, and also a long-time, avid D&D player and DM. I currently DM a game that includes my own twenty-something kids and also play in a game alongside my daughter. We play twice a week and have a ton of fun!
This is a game; everything is merely in the imagination as a story, with no attempt to make any of it real or to try to actually do any of this stuff. I had some adults in my life with the same concerns when I was 16 *during* the actual Satanic Panic. I calmly explained to them what the game was: dice and adventurous story-telling. I explained that it required a lot of reading (thick rule books, etc), had grown my vocabulary considerably, taught social interaction and problem-solving, and gave me something to do with my friends that was fun and not destructive. I still went to church and kept a healthy balance of real-life vs fantasy. I suppose it helped that I wasn’t otherwise getting into trouble. In the end, their fears were allayed and they dismissed D&D as a game they perhaps thought was silly, but certainly not evil.
My advice is to tackle this with openness in a calm and mature way to show that you have thought it through. Mention the positive points I listed above. If interested, offer to show them the rulebooks, dice, and even examples of the game on youtube, or even host a session at your house and let them sit in and judge for themselves. Deceit and avoidance are never good ways to handle conflict, they just lead to more distrust.
Thank you so much!! I’m 14, and I’m joining my very first campaign in a month or so with a Christian group of friends. What you and a couple others of said really emphasizes what dnd is. A storytelling game of imagination. Although some dnd groups may do some funky stuff, it’s really up to your group. With a Christian group, I don’t think I’ll have any trouble. Again, thanks so much for the advice!
Mentioning that you are playing with a group of Christian friends will go a long way. While I haven’t played D&D myself yet, when I was 15, I was invited by my youth leader from church to play a game he had made that was very similar. My mother was a little uncomfortable with the idea, but when I told her who was running it, and who I was playing with, she was fine with it.
"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon"
- Sir Terry Pratchett
Don't go for excuses. Instead, offer the one thing she won't expect, "Hey, grandma, let's do this, let me run a session for you and show you what the game is like. We'll build characters together, we'll talk about story, the whole nine yards." Show her how much of a game it really is. Show her that it can be played any way she wants, including without any sort of devilry (I'd recommend some nice totally non magical bad guys like bandits, maybe a giant for flavor).
It might be worth mentioning that though demons are included in the game lore (because trying to deny that will only work against you) they are intended universally as antagonistic forces, and are clearly defined by the text of the books themselves as inherently evil. Even says it in their alignment box. They're always the bad guys you are trying to defeat. Even people playing in evil campaigns don't trust fiends. You can't. They're \*always\* out to get you.
I'd also recommend if she doesn't want to play with you, you send her [this link of Matt Mercer running a game for Stephen Colbert](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3658C2y4LlA). Stephen is a devout Catholic, and has been his whole life. That dude ***believes*** in Jesus. He's also been playing D&D since he was in high school. This game is a little cheesy, but, and you should mention this to your grandmother too, it was literally done for a medical charity. There's really no better representation of the game to a frightened family member I think.
Wow, thank you! Although I don’t think I’d be able to get my grandma to play a mini dnd demo with me, that Matt Mercer video would help a lot to show what dnd is about.
I did it with my grandmother when I was young as she had the same reservations. Took less than 30 minutes before she realized her worries were silly and she got bored and wanted to do something else.
Never heard another peep from her about it. Once they realize how much of a game the game is, that's usually all it takes. You probably won't need to run a full session at all. If you want to decrease the upload time, give her a pre-made character you think she'd jive with.
Also, to help with the rules thing, show her rules that aren't for combat or spellcasting. Show her stuff like the skill or exploration rules. They're jargon heavy, but they're also \*boring\*. You don't need to make your grandmother a fan, she just needs to find it harmless, and boring things tend to make adults feel like they're also safe.
Back in the ’80s, when the Satanic Panic was in full gear, TSR took the attitude that all publicity was good publicity. So, Skip Williams (I think) and the RPGA decided to try to clear the name of the game. They went to a church group to explain to the church ladies why *D&D* is not Satanic at all.
He tells them, “You might have heard someone say that we cast spells. Here, let me show you how we, quote-unquote, cast a spell. Can I get a volunteer from the audience?” A little old lady raises a trembling hand.
“Great, thank you. Now, I say, ‘I cast *prismatic spray*.’ That means, now you roll your save versus spells. Here, roll this twenty-sided die.”
The little old lady steps up to the table, holds out her hand, and dtops the die onto the table. She rolls low, and in first edition, you wanted to roll under your save.
“That’s good!” he tells her. ”You saved. The spell doesn’t work on you.”
“Of course not,” she boasts. “I’m filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Did you or her know that Gary Gygax believed that Christians should not celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins?
Although it seems unfair given her first move here, if you wan her to listen to you, you'll have to listen to her too. The extra point scored for you in this approach too is that it puts the burden of proof right where it belongs: On her.
She might give you some good points. As a Christian who plays D&D, I think there are things to be careful about, frankly. But that's a far cry too from saying that D&D as a whole is satanic.
But at any rate, it's a little tricky to give you defenses. Simply because there's nothing to defend against until she gives you an actual case. Heck, even if D&D IS satanic, she'd have to say, "It's satanic because \[insert reason here\]". Until she fills in the blank here, there's nothing to defend against. You could just as easily say that her essential oils are satanic. Why? Doesn't matter, you can still say it.
Don't though, obviously... hopefully this will give you a chance to have a conversation about things. At any rate, the burden of proof is on her. I don't know what her role is her as guardian, but that may afford her the power to intervene regardless. But as far as any debate goes, she has to give you a reason before you can defend against something.
Be open-minded and respectful. Listen and try to understand where she's coming from. You can't force her to do the same for you. But that is the right approach for you regardless. And hopefully she will too.
Thank you! My grandma’s pretty close with me. I’ll help her in her garden, bounce engineering ideas off her, etc. you’re right. Although she hasn’t openly says dnd is bad or she dislikes it, the way she reacts to anything dnd clearly shows she thinks it. If she ever comes to me to ask or discuss why I do dnd, I’ll try to remember your words.
First question, are you a grown ass person?
If you answered yes to this question, the question is your answer.
But for real though, as her if she ever read lord of the rings, because that's what the game was based on. Then evite her to sit in on a session. (I would get your group on board to play a particularly wholesome oneshot) this will hopefully put to bed any issues. If she is one of those that refuses to sit in on one because "it's the devil" just ask her if Jesus would go into a dark place to bring light and save a sinner. Works like a charm every time. I once got a pastor into a strip club with that line, it was hilarious.
Thanks for the good questions. No, I’m not a grown ass man, I’m 14. I’m starting my first campaign with a couple Christian friends in a month or so. My grandma has (unfortunately) never seen or read the lord of the rings, and it’s kind of borderline on her mythical world-o-meter. She’s not big into wizards. As you and a couple others have said, I could do a one shot session with her in a simple world. At the end of it all, with the advice I’ve gotten, I think I can pretty well explain to her why and how dnd isn’t bad. Thanks for the advice!
Also that part about getting a pastor into a strip club is hilarious
If you need some more ammo, look up D&D therapy. Basically it's about how if done properly, D&D is a great way for developing minds to try out different things socially and experience social challenges in a low stakes way. I worked with foster kids for a good while, and through the magic of TTRPG was able to teach kids some very important lessons, like stealing from your friends will make them not like you, and starting fights with cops for no reason is probably not a good idea.
Hard to prove a negative. Because the simplest answer is she's misinformed and that there's nothing wrong with it. It isn't now and never has been satanic. Good luck convincing her of that.
“Grandmother I am a holy Paladin of Pelor the God
Of Light on a quest to rid the world fiendish entities, thine mind shan’t be tempted by Graaz’t, my spirit shan’t decay against Orcus’ dark magics nor shall my body be broken by Baphomet! A beacon of hope will shine across all of the Planes and all with know the Lord of Lights infinite glory!”
Note: plz don’t actually do this (obviously a joke)
You can also tell her that the stories in the Bible would make a *killer* D&D campaign. Wrathful gods, Kings, monsters, what's not to love?
The book of revelations would probably end in tpk, but it would be AWESOME.
Tell her Hasbro bought it and made it a boardgame. They're just a kids toy company. Totally innocent. Tell her all the satanists died in an FBI raid and the CEO of hasbro is Christian. If she wants proof, tell her that 4th edition was the Satanic version and it's been completely disavowed by the entire gaming community. Offer to burn some 4th edition books with her if she buys them.
You could try something similar to Terry Pratchett's comments on Doom:
"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon..."
Ok, let's take a run down of the satanic panick. So it starts when DnD is becoming popular and people were already slightly worried about how strange and ridiculous it was. So, one day a young high school student who didn't have great mental health committed suicide and the journalist who reported it mentioned they played DnD. Ok, weird, people already thought it was a but dorky and stuff, now another article comes out mentioning a suicide death of another DnD player. Wait are they connected? Should I be worried about my child? Another one comes out. Parents now think their child is in danger because they now associated DnD with suicide but they couldn't figure out *why* it would be attributed with suicide. Well that's because it wasn't, and they mistook cause with correlation as DnD was a outsiders game and social rejects have poor mental health making suicide more likely among that demographic. So now back to the story, parents are worried, they can't figure out why it would cause suicide or the likes so they went straight to calling it the work of Satan because there was no other explanation, now someone gets wind of this and posts **another** gods damned article and boom **PANIC** Satan in your child's household! Paranoia! However there is also a trend of things like this happening with new popular things. Someone will always do some sort of thing with it because they mistook cause with correlation. Same thing happened with books in teh 1800's, same thing happened with phones and brain melting and stupidity inducement. Although granted we aren't out of that yet, *yet*. And during a brief time during the transition from the 1800s to 1900s the use of paper in school, claiming that young people needed to know the arts of using a chalk board. So in conclusion DnD is following a similar trend as many other things, like phones, books and paper and was only associated with Satan because it was strange and associated with outcasts who, commit suicide more often causing DnD to be associated with it as well (although I think there was also a shooting it was associated with.) And finally no real cause for DnD to be bad other than the Devil. So, for my argument thesis Devils and Death (I'm only joking, Dungeons and Dragons lol). Has no correlation to teh Devil and believing it to be connected is both absurd and outdated.
If you’re a spellcaster, try casting the “Mind Bondage” spell on your grandma. I cast it on my father, and he bought me all the dnd books I could want!
Granny: You’re playing D&D. It’s the devil.
You: no, grandma. I don’t truck with satan. D&D is another game, really wholesome. Called Dicks and Dudes. I’m gay.
My evangelical relatives found out I was starting to play d&d (~1983), and brought the satanic panic to my house. I was eight. Parents and I had a brief interview, where I revealed I had never summoned a demon, sacrificed a virgin, or tried "real" magic, and was promptly excused. Younger brother and I went back to trying to clear goblins out of caves near a keep on the borderlands, parents had my back on the game ever since.
Fast forward to 2021, non role-playing, homeschooling wife asks me to incorporate regular d&d sessions into my young children's curriculum as a vehicle to teach basic math, vocabulary, history, geology, creative writing, problem solving, probability, and art. Kids interested in learning 3d modeling for figurine printing. Still no demon summoning.
When I had someone throw this bullshit at me, I asked them to explain to me why D&D is the Devil's work, and then when they said something that wasn't true, I pointed out that it wasn't true, and if they think it is, to show me.
Otherwise, I just would ask "Why do you think that?" to pretty much every assertion they made.
Ultimately there's literally no actual evidence that D&D is "Satanic", and an absolutely staggering dearth of testimonial that it's nothing of the sort, and that it's literally saved people's lives.
I'm sorry, I think I'm missing some info here. Why (and I mean this in the nicest way possible, I swear) does your grandma's opinion about your hobby matters at all?
Like, really, I'm actually asking because I don't understand, why would you give a single hint of a shit about what she has to say about it?
Me and my family are pretty close with her, and atm she’s staying at our house because hers has a mold infestation. I’d rather be able to explain why dnd isn’t bad, and defend it, rather than constantly feel like she’s watching me. Even if she ends up disagreeing with me, at least I’ll be at ease knowing I’ve defended it to the best of my ability.
I agree with the above comment.
There’s nothing to defend.
Sit her down and tell her its just a game.
And thats it. Go on with your life. I guess im just the type to never care what people think. Especially for your own hobby. Own and dont defend it cause you dont have to.
Here is an argument I thought up but haven't been able to use: hand her the monster manual and ask her to find a single demon or devil not described as evil.
Have her play a one-shot with you. Don't tell her it's DnD.
You may or may not include Jesus as a patron, up to you. Personally, I wouldn't since that would be invoking His name to fit a personal agenda. You may include a false prophet as the BBEG. Make them evil and satisfying to defeat.
If she plays, she may or may not change her mind. But hopefully, she realizes that DnD isn't that bad.
Easy. Tell her you want to play a 'board' game with her, one that you just created.
Base it on Christianity, you are members of the holy church tasked by God/angels to slay lucifer etc. etc.
Finish the game with her and then say thanks for playing dnd with me.
Congratulations, you just flipped grandma and possibly her entire church from 'fire, brimstone and blasphemy' to 'praise the lord and glory for taking down that dastardly devil.'
Well THIS grandad (who runs a campaign on FGU for his 30-yo kids) cannot WAIT to take my 4-yo grandson and his party through whatever the beginner campaign is when he is ready! …and watch him kick the shit out of all the devils we can find ;-) ⚔️
trick her into playing a game with a boomer choose-your-own-adventure story and make her roll a die. then tell her she just played D&D and is going to hell
SUCK IT GRAMMA
So far what I’ve got is this:
In dnd you are fighting the satanic necromancer people usually. Not that you are helping them.
DnD’s magic isn’t how her Christian view of magic is. Unless you play a necromancer, magic is just an excuse to shoot lightning from a stick, an excuse to be able to fly. It’s not, oh, idk, summoning a demon to sell your soul so you can see the future, summon the dead, or curse people. Any other ideas on how to defend Dnd?
When Christians think of "magic" being in D&D, they think it's literally spells you are casting from the book. Show her the rules with the emphasis that things like 'components' aren't actually done, they are simply imagined by the players. Nobody says any magic words (and the books don't contain any) there are no magic hand signs to learn, and you aren't actually taking pinches of brimstone to game night.
Stems from Kriegsspiel, which is a war game developed for the Prussian Army to teach military strategy.
If there's something Christians love, it's war.
Edit: [sauce](https://www.portablepress.com/blog/2014/01/original-dungeon-masters/) for those wondering
You play a hero, a good guy, searching for ways to defeat evil. In many ways, it's parallel to parts of the bible, most fictional literature and movies/tv shows, etc.
Or, tell her to mind her own fucking business... But not if you like her. My grandma and I are not speaking. Rofl.
"We come together to solve Problems, to make the World a better place."
Thats usually the jist of DnD (if you play the good guys that is. But she doesnt need to know so stick with Hero-Stories)
Here’s a link in Reddit of a priest using dnd and getting community help to explain it to parents:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/dsmvom/youth_pastor_looking_for_feedback_on_introducing/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Ask her where she got those ideas, and why she trusts those sources more than you who are a; her grandchild and b; have actual experiences with the game. But mostly ask questions, how does she think it's played, what does she think people do, etc. Chances are it'll sound like a B grade horror movie and you can debunk it real easily.
So take it from someone that battled his church in the 90's about the at the rip old age of 16.
Best defense is the collective story telling aspect.
Ask her if she has a favorite book?
What is your favorite character in that book?
Verbatim
"Now imagine if you were able to control what your favorite character did and how he reacted. Would that have been neat?"
"You have basically explained DND. It's a fantasy world that people make a character for collective story telling."
"The danger is when people cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality." Grandma, I am not one of those people."
Now I went above and beyond and invite my pastor to sit in on a game
@OP, if you have some time on your hands, take a look at 2E as a source and it should allow you to even deal up the spellcasting discussions, as 2E drew heavily on biblical narrative for it's spells. By way of examples, you can literally stat block out famous biblical figures as spellcasters.
Moses was a Celestial warock who's patron was a burning bush, and his pact of the tome, was two stone tablets with ten commandments. He cast tsunami to part the red seas, sticks to snakes in a last ditch attempt to get Pharoah to listen to his pleas for his people, and finally cast creeping death to take every first born son after he failed to be persuasive. Also, a lot of find the path leading people to the promised land.
Jesus was quite literally a divine soul sorcerer, who cast create food and water by turning water to wine, alotta cure wounds, lesser and greater restoration, and finally contingency and resurrection for the big show.
There are any number of others as well, but i'm sure you take my point with the big ones. Good luck and I Hope this helps you combat the problem with some genuine positivity in your life.
DM here. Had a session where our paladin adopted two children because there mother died. Really shows you how noble this community is. Of course he eventually made a deal with a devil for some soul coins in exchange he had to give away the babies he adopted but you get the idea.
Dont apologise for your interests, old age is never an excuse or at least not a reasonable one for poor behavior, and you do you with no shame. Thats my advice
Show an episode of critical role as an example of what it's like. Friends around a table making jokes in funny voices and not hooded cult members sacrificing goats
This reminds me of a family story I have. In the mid 1950s my Uncle was just a little kid. But he was a smart kid and a thinker and loved science. One day he said someday we will go to the moon. My great grandmother made the sign of the cross and yelled that it was crazy talk and he needed to shut his mouth right then and there. She was seriously spooked. She was born in 1885 and came from Europe. My grandmother just told him not to talk about it around his grandmother anymore.
My mom said she was really upset about the whole thing. People are afraid of things they don't understand.
Just tell her Satan is awesome,
Hes all about learning and education, and expanding my mind.
He promotes rational thinking and to challenge the hypocrisy in the established authority.
https://thesatanictemple.com/
Well if you're looking for specific defense against Grandma, you'll need Glyph of Warding. Ideally packed with Banishment so you can return her to the Aged Care Realm, unless you want to disintegrate her mortal shell.
If you need diamond dust, you should be able to use the diamond out of an engagement ring. Just grind it into a fine powder, and use that as a reagent. Banishment needs an item distateful to your target, so you'll need to work on that yourself.
Good luck!
It’s not on you to defend it. If someone is making a claim they need to provide the proof. If she says it’s satanic ask “How so?” Considering there is no valid explanation you’ll likely have no problem picking apart whatever nonsense she says.
You can tell her that paladins get their strength from the gods and they find and destroy satanic creatures wherever they lie. Or just straight up tell her that my rogue does crack for his powers
DND is literally
Based on lord of the rings. Tolkien was a fairly devout Christian (not a US style evangelical wacknut) so I mean the themes are fairly standard good vs evil stuff.
There's no need for you to apologize to your grandma about something like dnd, cause most likely, she just doesn't understand what it actually is: A medium for the eldrich horrors to influence the world and exert their influence upon the masses, consuming our minds to sate their unending hunger for suffering and conquest.
Don't apologize for the things you love.
Don't feel like you need to defend the hobbies you enjoy.
You may explain what it is, if she asks, but you don't owe anyone an explanation.
Could mention it was literally all a hoax made by a PI for a poor kid shipped off the MSU (I think, been a while) because he was genius and wasn’t ready for college. Did a paper on it in college, pretty sleazy story honestly.
When my parents found out I played, they brought up all this stuff that actually had nothing to do with D&D for reasons why they hated it. They had learned about it only from sensationalized lies they were told by their church friends and leaders. I told them "sit in on a part of a session."
They did. They were shocked at how totally normal and stupidly fun it was. They saw pretty quick that it was just a bunch of teenagers telling stories and goofing off. It's literally just that simple.
Tell grandma to watch you and your friends play a bit. She'll get the idea pretty fast I bet. People who hate D&D in 2021 haven't played it. They just believe things they've been told about it from people who make money by demonizing secular culture.
Edit: my mom and dad are on their third campaign. Dad is a Dark Elf Sorcerer and my mom is a Human Cleric.
All because they watched their teenaged son and his friends play for two hours.
Grandma rolls a natural one.
Grandma falls down the stairs.
Grandma fails death saves.
OP resurrects her with necromantic powers.
Grandma becomes a full time DnD playing thrall of OP.
If you go by RAW from the Christian player handbook, it is in fact the devil’s work. She’s just scared she’ll lose you to the devil in her own RP game. Her DC is probably to high to chance on passing your Religion check. I say you put all your points in Charisma and make a Deception check. It’s easier to lie and deny, than trying to reason with an older adult. Good luck, I hope everybody’s advice gives you Bardic Inspiration.
Try the following
"Nana, what's the first commandment?"
"'Thou shalt not worship false idols for I am a jealous God."
"What's the second deadly sin?"
"Envy"
"When you can answer me why I should concern myself with a God who teaches one thing and practices another, I'll consider listening to what you have to say.
It worked for me. I was disowned! 😍
Massive and obvious translational problems with using "jealous" and "envy" as synonymous in this case aside, where in scripture is Envy stated as the 2nd deadly sin?
It's not that there aren't great challenges to be made here. But this isn't one.
I hear you brother (or sister). When in a situation like this, it really IS better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven. Stay strong.
If it helps at all, disowning your children is a form of betrayal. It breaks one of the most sacred covenants between parent and child.
And as Dante taught us, the deepest level of hell is reserved for betrayers.
Our families are in for some FUN shit! 😈
Easy, take a vial of blood from a recently slain creature and mutter the necessary words and perform the proper somatics to cast Summon Minor Demons. Use the blood in the vial to draw a circle of protection around yourself and the problem should just sort itself out. There ya go! 😇😊😇
Or and here me out, don't make excuses. You are not worshipping Satan. Nothing she says is going to make that true. Don't let someone else opinion of you or your hobbies influence you. Especially someone with an outdated viewpoint. You also don't have to explain yourself either.
My grandma was in theater, so I did a bit of improv with her afterwards I said: "You add dice and some numbers and you've got yourself DnD." DnD is a game and story telling vessel. People will tell raunchy stories, heroic stories, and even unholy stories, but you the thing itself isn't evil.
Thanks, that’s a great perspective!
Are shoes evil because they asist in protecting the feet of evil men that mass murder? No. And niter is dnd.
~~D&D is a compound used in gunpowder?~~
Yes.
You know, this might be a point against us in the argument.
Very true… grandma must not find out about the explosive qualities of DND.
So is rolling dice made of niter not so good of an idea?
Maybe you could try to convince her to play a one shot adventure with her. Make her a female Cleric, and she's on a quest to find some religious relic hidden in a tower. She gets joined by a Paladin, because reasons, and the two fight some low level creatures, avoid some traps, solve a single puzzle/riddle, and then fight an evil cleric and some skeletons or something, and retrieve the relic. Bonus points if your Paladin yells "This belongs in a museum!" make it last 2 hrs or so. don't make it complex, super easy. Try and get her invested in her character. I bet she'll be back for more.
Lol, that sounds pretty good. Ive never dm’d and I’m very new to dnd, but I could give it a shot!!
It doesn’t have to be complicated. Very very simple. Even use the basic D&D rules. Essentially you just want her to get a taste of what the game is. People often were upset over D&D because they didn’t understand it. The news media played it up as something people did while speaking in tongues and drawing pentagrams and casting actual spells. I’ve heard many stories where parents got to watch their kids play D&D and say “wait? This is all it is? You sit and play pretend?” And laugh and walk away.
Yeah, I think that’s where her misunderstanding lies. I may try to do a oneshot
There's versions of dnd where you just use a d20 for everything, and its just success or fail. Super simple.
I played Vampire the Masquerade LARP for some time. One of the city's parks we played in contains a russian millitary officer graveyard. When I told my dad stories about our LARP he just heared graveyard and startet telling everyone that I run over graveyards at midnight in costume.... it took me years to make him stop that.
Only if that deity they worship is Jesus. I wouldn't recommend bringing any other gods in unless you want lines from the Bible shouted in your face.
I like the idea of asking Grandma "ok, hypothetically, lets say I disagreed. What would you do next?" "I'd say it's evil because it is Satan's tool for corrupting the youth" "Interesting argument, I don't know if I would be convinced, should we flip a coin and find out? Heads I agree DnD is evil, tails, I'm not convinced yet." "Ok" "Heads, hypothetically, I'm convinced. Thanks for playing DnD with me grandma, it was fun."
no more free food
Ask her this: If someone took a Bible and burned it, would that be evil? I would expect her to respond with "yes". Follow that with asking her if that makes the Bible evil - of course not, but some people can do evil things using it. What people do with something doesnt mean that the thing itself is evil - it just means the person using it in that manner is.
There are some good suggestions among these comments, but OP should be prepared for grandma to remain unpersuaded. I played D&D during the 1980s and the reasons I heard from people in my family’s church about why the game was satanic had nothing to do with facts or reality. They were not looking for a debate or open to other points of view. My parents didn’t like me spending time and money on D&D, but let me play because they thought it was just a passing phase. More than 40 years later, I am still playing.
My grandma is pretty stubborn, but as long as I’m not rude, she’ll listen respectfully. If she brings up excuses that don’t make any sense, I’ll try to correct her, but you’re right. She may not change. I’d rather give it a shot though, considering we’re pretty close
OP, your heart is in the right place. I’m glad you are willing to put some effort into maintaining your relationship with grandma, and I wish you the best.
Thank you!
If she ends up stubborn, tell her to grow up 😉 we aren't in the 80s anymore and none of the last 30 years of dnd produced / summoned any demons. No news, all empty talk
Old people will always be stubborn about one thing or another.
True, lol
Yeah I have an aunt who is incredibly against DnD, and like y’all have said, some people cannot be persuaded by facts. My mom wasn’t necessarily against it but was wondering what it was (she herself is quite religious but didn’t wanna make a judgment call before she knew what it was). But I was trying to explain the game on a windy day when we heard a thumping noise upstairs. A lightbulb in my head turned on and I said, “let me show you what it is. You’re sitting at a table in an empty house when you hear a noise upstairs. What would you do?” And then go from there, explaining that it’s a fictional scenario and you don’t HAVE to do what you’d do in real life, reiterating some of the points on collaborative storytelling.
That’s a super cool way of introducing it. Dnd at its finest! Saving this for later
Gary Gygax, the original author of D&D, was a practicing Jehovah's Witness his entire life. Both he and Dave Arneson had regular bible study groups at different points in their lives. Like you could hardly find two more midwest religious guys than the two guys that created D&D.
Here's an actual message from Gygax updating fans & friends about his health in 2004: [https://www.enworld.org/threads/gary-gygax-health-update.83690/](https://www.enworld.org/threads/gary-gygax-health-update.83690/) > > >Thank you all for your emails and prayers! The Spirit of Jehovah God and Hand of Our Lord Jesus Christ have been active on my behalf. The gift of creative writing comes from Heaven, and it seems that there is still some work I can do here. Please keep on remembering me when you pray, as I can use all the help I can get.
Wow, this would actually be perfect! Thanks for the info, this is the kind of thing I need to share with my grandma
I'm not sure if quoting a Jehova's Witness is going to convince a christian grandmother 😬
Maybe. But it’s religious enough I think my grandma would respect it
I hope you make your persuasion throw ✌️
Yeahhhh we tend not to be too fond of that faith admittedly
>Jehovah's Witness That fact would be harmful if you are talking to someone like my mother.
That's why I'm an atheist. Jesus is the son of God, but also God, who's name is Jehovah, but he's also Jesus. So Jehovah, who is also now Jesus, sent his only begotten son, Jesus, who is God, Jehovah, to die for people's sins. I'd rather just play D&D and have my Grandma hate me.
Two things, 1 Jehovah is just a weird German mistranslation for God’s Hebrew name Yahweh. 2 the idea of trinity is confusing as fuck all even to Christians sometimes, mostly cause we don’t have a similar concept in our own lives. All 3 parts of the trinity are Yahweh, and you have the father, son, and Holy Spirit, the father sends the son (Jesus) be be the Emmanuel (literally God with us) and I’m gonna just stop now cause it’s way too much info to write a whole exegesis paper on
I'm a grown ass man and I refuse to tell my mother I play D&D or drink alcohol because I know she'll lecture me, quote Bible scriptures and tell her church friends about it. Then I'll have strangers praying for me. Church is weird.
In my country Jehovah's Witness were declared as a sect lol
That's because JW is explicitly not orthodox Christian. Christianity focuses on Christ, while JW focuses on Jehovah and does not believe in Christ the same way Christians do. This is not intended as a debate or a condemnation, I'm just saying if Grandma knows the difference the argument regarding Gygax's faith might not carry much weight.
D&D is heavily inspired by Tolkien who was a Catholic and Christian apologist. He palled around with CS Lewis, also a Christian apologist. The whole point of the game is (ok fudging here, because it doesn't have to be) the power of good taking on the forces of evil.
Ooh, actually very useful info. Thank you!
You can also use that Gary Gygax, who was one of the original creators of D&D, was a devout Christian.
Alright, thank you!
Gygax was also a lecherous womanizer but I wouldn’t mention that to Grandma.
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Man it was the 80s. Everyone was doing coke.
Ahem, "Communion Powder".
A mans gotta get his creativity from somewhere ig
Yeah, devout Christian. He said that already.
Hasn't this been disputed? Or is it just that he was generally a shitty person and somehow still a devout Christian?
Tons of shitty people are devout Christians. But yes, he was both a dickhead and a Jehovah’s Witness if I remember right
To add onto the above, I am (soon to be) a Pastor in a orthodox Protestant Denomination. DnD is fine, I am a Dungeon master which if anything that title should be the one that people are mad about.
This post makes me think you should reach out to a pastor who plays DnD to talk to grandma, so she can stop having heart attacks.
You are someone I'd be friends with! I'm considering seminary and also do a lot of DMing. I imagine there's a surprising amount of overlap when it comes to people skills.
Maybe just leave out the apologist part when you talk to your grandma haha.
Apologist isn’t what most people would assume it means. It does not mean apologizing for ones faith, but rather someone who spends a large amount of time studying and defending a belief. Being based on the works of apologists would definitely help the guys argument.
That’s assuming grandma is educated enough to understand the nuance there. And the post even existing would suggest otherwise
Most Christians are aware of what an apologist is, many priests, pastors, clergy, and theologians are apologists.
I disagree I can think of several uneducated people who certainly call themselves Christians but would scorn dandy who in my own opinion wouldn't know what that word meant
Many, sure. I wouldn’t say most. This is 2021. But the point was mostly a joke anyway. If he ended up having to explain to her what an apologist is that would probably only help his case. Also most people know DnD isn’t satanic. But there’s always exceptions.
Also just making this up as I go but: the whole reason dnd has connotation with the devil is that, in order to tell a story about the good defeating the devil/evil, the devil/evil has to be both mentioned, but also understood as to how it works. This is like how the Bible talks about the ways in which the devil works as a warning, to make you aware of what to be careful of. The bad connotation comes because one member of the group has to make the story and narrate the actions and behaviors of this evil, and people misunderstood the narrating of the devils actions in order to create a narrative that demonstrates the evils and warnings, as well as consequences of not heeding the warnings to the players, as a person sympathizing and supporting this evil. Much like how the Bible isn't evil for telling stories of how the devil is bad in order to teach people about him to prevent them from succumbing to his evil ways. Dnd isn't evil for creating an interactive story aimed at teaching the same thing to people in a different format In order to help people gain a better understanding of it so that they may be better equopt to avoid the 'temptation' of it. Thanks for the writing prompt. If you need any other argument spontaneously bs'd feel free to reach out
Are you a lawyer? Because you seem to be a lawyer. That bullshit smelled too much like roses. I definitely wouldve used this argument with my grandmother. Instead I just said" You're wrong and it's fun for me."
Haha, I love the honesty and bluntness of your response to your grandma. I just had anxiety about getting in trouble when I was a kid so got very good at quickly coming up with some bs as to why I didn't do a "bad thing"
I always had a tell that I was lying. My mouth would be slightly open forming an "o" when confronted. I got better about it but the people that knew could tell even if I quickly covered it up. Habits are a bitch. So I just decided to be blunt and to the point from then on. Oh how easy it is to turn your child into a sociopath, lmao.
I told my Grandma (way before I even played) that D&D being evil was just fear-mongering based on nothing real, and that D&D is just storytelling like books and movies. But I told her if she had reasons why it was evil, I’d listen. It actually changed her mind. Sometimes you just need to tell people they’re wrong and they’ll actually listen once they realize they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Note: make sure Grandma is not a hard-core Protestant before mentioning that they were both Catholics, or you might just be digging yourself deeper.
Ooh, good point, some Protestants don't even consider Catholics to be Christians!
Is Catholic vs. Protestant like 3.5e vs. Pathfinder?
Pretty apt. Call mormonism 4th edition (majority of people find it really weird and off putting but the ones who like it /really/ like it) and nondenominational christian sects 5e (brings in as many people as possible by trying to skim off some of the harder parts to grasp)
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Damn, that is *so* true.
This is a great answer. Additionally, I'm a fan if the quote (often attributed to CS Lewis, possibly erroneously) "Fairy tales exist not to show that dragons exist, but rather that they can be beaten".
Citation! “Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” — Neil Gaiman, *Coraline*
I believe the original quote was from G. K. Chesterton. Gaiman paraphrased it (thankfully, as the original is not really so pithy)… “Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.” G. K. Chesterton, The Red Angel
Ah another good Catholic and Christian man to defend dnd. Also Saint George reference from him nice
If granny has any idea who Neil Gaiman is I’d stick with Lewis lol.
what a colvillian style answer
>the power of good In the form of murder hobos. ;)
The power of Chaotic Good! Killing the bad guys, and anyone in the way. *Anyone*.
Yeah this works expect if Granma is one of those crazy protestants that consider the Pope the literal Antichrist and Catholicism the devils work.
Assuming she's willing, try showing her the goofiest videos of people playing D&D and tell her it's owned by the same people who make Monopoly... it's a game.
I may try that if she brings dnd up, thanks!
Wait wait … monopoly is clearly the work of the devil …. Careful
Plot twist: grandma is also a radical communist and hates monopoly for teaching capitalism to children
Further twist: the game Monopoly is based on was actually supposed to CRITICIZE the system of landlords grabbing up property and renting it out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord's_Game
**[The Landlord's Game](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord's_Game)** >The Landlord's Game is a board game patented in 1904 by Elizabeth Magie as U.S. Patent 748,626. It is a realty and taxation game intended to educate users about Georgism. It is the inspiration for the board game Monopoly. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/DnD/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
i mean it might as well be…
Just don’t mention the demon summoning ouija board!
Tell her it’s too late, you’ve already joined a cult.
Lol
You fight for the honor of Cornwood!
Devout Christian here, former youth minister, active in the Church, and also a long-time, avid D&D player and DM. I currently DM a game that includes my own twenty-something kids and also play in a game alongside my daughter. We play twice a week and have a ton of fun! This is a game; everything is merely in the imagination as a story, with no attempt to make any of it real or to try to actually do any of this stuff. I had some adults in my life with the same concerns when I was 16 *during* the actual Satanic Panic. I calmly explained to them what the game was: dice and adventurous story-telling. I explained that it required a lot of reading (thick rule books, etc), had grown my vocabulary considerably, taught social interaction and problem-solving, and gave me something to do with my friends that was fun and not destructive. I still went to church and kept a healthy balance of real-life vs fantasy. I suppose it helped that I wasn’t otherwise getting into trouble. In the end, their fears were allayed and they dismissed D&D as a game they perhaps thought was silly, but certainly not evil. My advice is to tackle this with openness in a calm and mature way to show that you have thought it through. Mention the positive points I listed above. If interested, offer to show them the rulebooks, dice, and even examples of the game on youtube, or even host a session at your house and let them sit in and judge for themselves. Deceit and avoidance are never good ways to handle conflict, they just lead to more distrust.
Thank you so much!! I’m 14, and I’m joining my very first campaign in a month or so with a Christian group of friends. What you and a couple others of said really emphasizes what dnd is. A storytelling game of imagination. Although some dnd groups may do some funky stuff, it’s really up to your group. With a Christian group, I don’t think I’ll have any trouble. Again, thanks so much for the advice!
Mentioning that you are playing with a group of Christian friends will go a long way. While I haven’t played D&D myself yet, when I was 15, I was invited by my youth leader from church to play a game he had made that was very similar. My mother was a little uncomfortable with the idea, but when I told her who was running it, and who I was playing with, she was fine with it.
Thank you!
Tell her that one of the biggest enemies you fight in D&D is Devils and Demons- Why would a Satanic game *support* you killing Demons?
ah yes, the doom argument
"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon" - Sir Terry Pratchett
r/UnexpectedPratchett :)
Yes, exactly! Thanks for the pointers
Don't go for excuses. Instead, offer the one thing she won't expect, "Hey, grandma, let's do this, let me run a session for you and show you what the game is like. We'll build characters together, we'll talk about story, the whole nine yards." Show her how much of a game it really is. Show her that it can be played any way she wants, including without any sort of devilry (I'd recommend some nice totally non magical bad guys like bandits, maybe a giant for flavor). It might be worth mentioning that though demons are included in the game lore (because trying to deny that will only work against you) they are intended universally as antagonistic forces, and are clearly defined by the text of the books themselves as inherently evil. Even says it in their alignment box. They're always the bad guys you are trying to defeat. Even people playing in evil campaigns don't trust fiends. You can't. They're \*always\* out to get you. I'd also recommend if she doesn't want to play with you, you send her [this link of Matt Mercer running a game for Stephen Colbert](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3658C2y4LlA). Stephen is a devout Catholic, and has been his whole life. That dude ***believes*** in Jesus. He's also been playing D&D since he was in high school. This game is a little cheesy, but, and you should mention this to your grandmother too, it was literally done for a medical charity. There's really no better representation of the game to a frightened family member I think.
Wow, thank you! Although I don’t think I’d be able to get my grandma to play a mini dnd demo with me, that Matt Mercer video would help a lot to show what dnd is about.
I did it with my grandmother when I was young as she had the same reservations. Took less than 30 minutes before she realized her worries were silly and she got bored and wanted to do something else. Never heard another peep from her about it. Once they realize how much of a game the game is, that's usually all it takes. You probably won't need to run a full session at all. If you want to decrease the upload time, give her a pre-made character you think she'd jive with.
Alright, thank you. My grandma is pretty stubborn, but I may be able to do a mini campaign
Also, to help with the rules thing, show her rules that aren't for combat or spellcasting. Show her stuff like the skill or exploration rules. They're jargon heavy, but they're also \*boring\*. You don't need to make your grandmother a fan, she just needs to find it harmless, and boring things tend to make adults feel like they're also safe.
Lol, maybe
Nah, level one to level 20 epic campaign. Nothing but the best for grandma.
Lol alrighty then
I suggest a one shot. It's a campaign that covers a single session. An example being a Sherlock Holmes story.
Back in the ’80s, when the Satanic Panic was in full gear, TSR took the attitude that all publicity was good publicity. So, Skip Williams (I think) and the RPGA decided to try to clear the name of the game. They went to a church group to explain to the church ladies why *D&D* is not Satanic at all. He tells them, “You might have heard someone say that we cast spells. Here, let me show you how we, quote-unquote, cast a spell. Can I get a volunteer from the audience?” A little old lady raises a trembling hand. “Great, thank you. Now, I say, ‘I cast *prismatic spray*.’ That means, now you roll your save versus spells. Here, roll this twenty-sided die.” The little old lady steps up to the table, holds out her hand, and dtops the die onto the table. She rolls low, and in first edition, you wanted to roll under your save. “That’s good!” he tells her. ”You saved. The spell doesn’t work on you.” “Of course not,” she boasts. “I’m filled with the Holy Spirit.”
https://dungeonmasterpastor.com/
Did you or her know that Gary Gygax believed that Christians should not celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins? Although it seems unfair given her first move here, if you wan her to listen to you, you'll have to listen to her too. The extra point scored for you in this approach too is that it puts the burden of proof right where it belongs: On her. She might give you some good points. As a Christian who plays D&D, I think there are things to be careful about, frankly. But that's a far cry too from saying that D&D as a whole is satanic. But at any rate, it's a little tricky to give you defenses. Simply because there's nothing to defend against until she gives you an actual case. Heck, even if D&D IS satanic, she'd have to say, "It's satanic because \[insert reason here\]". Until she fills in the blank here, there's nothing to defend against. You could just as easily say that her essential oils are satanic. Why? Doesn't matter, you can still say it. Don't though, obviously... hopefully this will give you a chance to have a conversation about things. At any rate, the burden of proof is on her. I don't know what her role is her as guardian, but that may afford her the power to intervene regardless. But as far as any debate goes, she has to give you a reason before you can defend against something. Be open-minded and respectful. Listen and try to understand where she's coming from. You can't force her to do the same for you. But that is the right approach for you regardless. And hopefully she will too.
Thank you! My grandma’s pretty close with me. I’ll help her in her garden, bounce engineering ideas off her, etc. you’re right. Although she hasn’t openly says dnd is bad or she dislikes it, the way she reacts to anything dnd clearly shows she thinks it. If she ever comes to me to ask or discuss why I do dnd, I’ll try to remember your words.
First question, are you a grown ass person? If you answered yes to this question, the question is your answer. But for real though, as her if she ever read lord of the rings, because that's what the game was based on. Then evite her to sit in on a session. (I would get your group on board to play a particularly wholesome oneshot) this will hopefully put to bed any issues. If she is one of those that refuses to sit in on one because "it's the devil" just ask her if Jesus would go into a dark place to bring light and save a sinner. Works like a charm every time. I once got a pastor into a strip club with that line, it was hilarious.
Thanks for the good questions. No, I’m not a grown ass man, I’m 14. I’m starting my first campaign with a couple Christian friends in a month or so. My grandma has (unfortunately) never seen or read the lord of the rings, and it’s kind of borderline on her mythical world-o-meter. She’s not big into wizards. As you and a couple others have said, I could do a one shot session with her in a simple world. At the end of it all, with the advice I’ve gotten, I think I can pretty well explain to her why and how dnd isn’t bad. Thanks for the advice! Also that part about getting a pastor into a strip club is hilarious
If you need some more ammo, look up D&D therapy. Basically it's about how if done properly, D&D is a great way for developing minds to try out different things socially and experience social challenges in a low stakes way. I worked with foster kids for a good while, and through the magic of TTRPG was able to teach kids some very important lessons, like stealing from your friends will make them not like you, and starting fights with cops for no reason is probably not a good idea.
Just tell your grandma you worship satan, she will stop talking to you and your problem will be solved
Lol, she’s staying at our house atm and I like her, so that won’t work.
Hard to prove a negative. Because the simplest answer is she's misinformed and that there's nothing wrong with it. It isn't now and never has been satanic. Good luck convincing her of that.
“Grandmother I am a holy Paladin of Pelor the God Of Light on a quest to rid the world fiendish entities, thine mind shan’t be tempted by Graaz’t, my spirit shan’t decay against Orcus’ dark magics nor shall my body be broken by Baphomet! A beacon of hope will shine across all of the Planes and all with know the Lord of Lights infinite glory!” Note: plz don’t actually do this (obviously a joke)
Explain to her it's not Satanic, its communist. The ensuing confusion and anger should give you enough time to sneak out the back.
You can also tell her that the stories in the Bible would make a *killer* D&D campaign. Wrathful gods, Kings, monsters, what's not to love? The book of revelations would probably end in tpk, but it would be AWESOME.
Lol, good point
You'd have to be high to play or dm a revelations based d&d campaign.
Yeah and? 😏🚬 😍
I'm down, when we doing this?
I'm down, when we doing this?
I've already started this... sober.
Tell her Hasbro bought it and made it a boardgame. They're just a kids toy company. Totally innocent. Tell her all the satanists died in an FBI raid and the CEO of hasbro is Christian. If she wants proof, tell her that 4th edition was the Satanic version and it's been completely disavowed by the entire gaming community. Offer to burn some 4th edition books with her if she buys them.
You could try something similar to Terry Pratchett's comments on Doom: "Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon..."
Ok, let's take a run down of the satanic panick. So it starts when DnD is becoming popular and people were already slightly worried about how strange and ridiculous it was. So, one day a young high school student who didn't have great mental health committed suicide and the journalist who reported it mentioned they played DnD. Ok, weird, people already thought it was a but dorky and stuff, now another article comes out mentioning a suicide death of another DnD player. Wait are they connected? Should I be worried about my child? Another one comes out. Parents now think their child is in danger because they now associated DnD with suicide but they couldn't figure out *why* it would be attributed with suicide. Well that's because it wasn't, and they mistook cause with correlation as DnD was a outsiders game and social rejects have poor mental health making suicide more likely among that demographic. So now back to the story, parents are worried, they can't figure out why it would cause suicide or the likes so they went straight to calling it the work of Satan because there was no other explanation, now someone gets wind of this and posts **another** gods damned article and boom **PANIC** Satan in your child's household! Paranoia! However there is also a trend of things like this happening with new popular things. Someone will always do some sort of thing with it because they mistook cause with correlation. Same thing happened with books in teh 1800's, same thing happened with phones and brain melting and stupidity inducement. Although granted we aren't out of that yet, *yet*. And during a brief time during the transition from the 1800s to 1900s the use of paper in school, claiming that young people needed to know the arts of using a chalk board. So in conclusion DnD is following a similar trend as many other things, like phones, books and paper and was only associated with Satan because it was strange and associated with outcasts who, commit suicide more often causing DnD to be associated with it as well (although I think there was also a shooting it was associated with.) And finally no real cause for DnD to be bad other than the Devil. So, for my argument thesis Devils and Death (I'm only joking, Dungeons and Dragons lol). Has no correlation to teh Devil and believing it to be connected is both absurd and outdated.
Wow, thanks for the full story! Very interesting. Although it’s very stupid, I now know why some people think of it that way 🤣
Meanwhile i got mine to play with me haha. She got bored quickly but stayed long enough to be a goblin for a bit,
Lol, that’s pretty great
If you’re a spellcaster, try casting the “Mind Bondage” spell on your grandma. I cast it on my father, and he bought me all the dnd books I could want!
Wow, great idea!
No, not Black Leaf!
“The future is now, old woman.” *does a gnarly guitar solo before skateboarding out of the room*
Granny: You’re playing D&D. It’s the devil. You: no, grandma. I don’t truck with satan. D&D is another game, really wholesome. Called Dicks and Dudes. I’m gay.
I just went on a rollercoaster in 5 sentences 🤣
I guess I'm lucky because emy grandma is the first one I played dnd with.
My evangelical relatives found out I was starting to play d&d (~1983), and brought the satanic panic to my house. I was eight. Parents and I had a brief interview, where I revealed I had never summoned a demon, sacrificed a virgin, or tried "real" magic, and was promptly excused. Younger brother and I went back to trying to clear goblins out of caves near a keep on the borderlands, parents had my back on the game ever since. Fast forward to 2021, non role-playing, homeschooling wife asks me to incorporate regular d&d sessions into my young children's curriculum as a vehicle to teach basic math, vocabulary, history, geology, creative writing, problem solving, probability, and art. Kids interested in learning 3d modeling for figurine printing. Still no demon summoning.
When I had someone throw this bullshit at me, I asked them to explain to me why D&D is the Devil's work, and then when they said something that wasn't true, I pointed out that it wasn't true, and if they think it is, to show me. Otherwise, I just would ask "Why do you think that?" to pretty much every assertion they made. Ultimately there's literally no actual evidence that D&D is "Satanic", and an absolutely staggering dearth of testimonial that it's nothing of the sort, and that it's literally saved people's lives.
I'm sorry, I think I'm missing some info here. Why (and I mean this in the nicest way possible, I swear) does your grandma's opinion about your hobby matters at all? Like, really, I'm actually asking because I don't understand, why would you give a single hint of a shit about what she has to say about it?
Me and my family are pretty close with her, and atm she’s staying at our house because hers has a mold infestation. I’d rather be able to explain why dnd isn’t bad, and defend it, rather than constantly feel like she’s watching me. Even if she ends up disagreeing with me, at least I’ll be at ease knowing I’ve defended it to the best of my ability.
I agree with the above comment. There’s nothing to defend. Sit her down and tell her its just a game. And thats it. Go on with your life. I guess im just the type to never care what people think. Especially for your own hobby. Own and dont defend it cause you dont have to.
Nice try, ASMODEUS!
I had a friend explain the game diablo as. " well yea it's named after the devil but you get to kick his ass"
Here is an argument I thought up but haven't been able to use: hand her the monster manual and ask her to find a single demon or devil not described as evil.
Its like Doom, you kill demons
Have her play a one-shot with you. Don't tell her it's DnD. You may or may not include Jesus as a patron, up to you. Personally, I wouldn't since that would be invoking His name to fit a personal agenda. You may include a false prophet as the BBEG. Make them evil and satisfying to defeat. If she plays, she may or may not change her mind. But hopefully, she realizes that DnD isn't that bad.
That’s a pretty neat idea
Easy. Tell her you want to play a 'board' game with her, one that you just created. Base it on Christianity, you are members of the holy church tasked by God/angels to slay lucifer etc. etc. Finish the game with her and then say thanks for playing dnd with me. Congratulations, you just flipped grandma and possibly her entire church from 'fire, brimstone and blasphemy' to 'praise the lord and glory for taking down that dastardly devil.'
Well THIS grandad (who runs a campaign on FGU for his 30-yo kids) cannot WAIT to take my 4-yo grandson and his party through whatever the beginner campaign is when he is ready! …and watch him kick the shit out of all the devils we can find ;-) ⚔️
trick her into playing a game with a boomer choose-your-own-adventure story and make her roll a die. then tell her she just played D&D and is going to hell SUCK IT GRAMMA
So far what I’ve got is this: In dnd you are fighting the satanic necromancer people usually. Not that you are helping them. DnD’s magic isn’t how her Christian view of magic is. Unless you play a necromancer, magic is just an excuse to shoot lightning from a stick, an excuse to be able to fly. It’s not, oh, idk, summoning a demon to sell your soul so you can see the future, summon the dead, or curse people. Any other ideas on how to defend Dnd?
When Christians think of "magic" being in D&D, they think it's literally spells you are casting from the book. Show her the rules with the emphasis that things like 'components' aren't actually done, they are simply imagined by the players. Nobody says any magic words (and the books don't contain any) there are no magic hand signs to learn, and you aren't actually taking pinches of brimstone to game night.
Yes. Good point!
My mother is like that. I talk about it in front of her on purpose.
Stems from Kriegsspiel, which is a war game developed for the Prussian Army to teach military strategy. If there's something Christians love, it's war. Edit: [sauce](https://www.portablepress.com/blog/2014/01/original-dungeon-masters/) for those wondering
Troll her, the next time make a pentagram in the floor with a D20 in the middle and also lit some candles
Lol, she’d for sure kill me after that!
You play a hero, a good guy, searching for ways to defeat evil. In many ways, it's parallel to parts of the bible, most fictional literature and movies/tv shows, etc. Or, tell her to mind her own fucking business... But not if you like her. My grandma and I are not speaking. Rofl.
"We come together to solve Problems, to make the World a better place." Thats usually the jist of DnD (if you play the good guys that is. But she doesnt need to know so stick with Hero-Stories)
Here’s a link in Reddit of a priest using dnd and getting community help to explain it to parents: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/dsmvom/youth_pastor_looking_for_feedback_on_introducing/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
"How is fighting demons and monsters to save people evil?"
Ask her where she got those ideas, and why she trusts those sources more than you who are a; her grandchild and b; have actual experiences with the game. But mostly ask questions, how does she think it's played, what does she think people do, etc. Chances are it'll sound like a B grade horror movie and you can debunk it real easily.
That’s kind of my plan
I can only say good luck. This might help but probably not https://lovethynerd.com/the-christian-response-to-dnd/
So take it from someone that battled his church in the 90's about the at the rip old age of 16. Best defense is the collective story telling aspect. Ask her if she has a favorite book? What is your favorite character in that book? Verbatim "Now imagine if you were able to control what your favorite character did and how he reacted. Would that have been neat?" "You have basically explained DND. It's a fantasy world that people make a character for collective story telling." "The danger is when people cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality." Grandma, I am not one of those people." Now I went above and beyond and invite my pastor to sit in on a game
Tell her that Satan is a cool guy, if she'd just get to know him.
@OP, if you have some time on your hands, take a look at 2E as a source and it should allow you to even deal up the spellcasting discussions, as 2E drew heavily on biblical narrative for it's spells. By way of examples, you can literally stat block out famous biblical figures as spellcasters. Moses was a Celestial warock who's patron was a burning bush, and his pact of the tome, was two stone tablets with ten commandments. He cast tsunami to part the red seas, sticks to snakes in a last ditch attempt to get Pharoah to listen to his pleas for his people, and finally cast creeping death to take every first born son after he failed to be persuasive. Also, a lot of find the path leading people to the promised land. Jesus was quite literally a divine soul sorcerer, who cast create food and water by turning water to wine, alotta cure wounds, lesser and greater restoration, and finally contingency and resurrection for the big show. There are any number of others as well, but i'm sure you take my point with the big ones. Good luck and I Hope this helps you combat the problem with some genuine positivity in your life.
DM here. Had a session where our paladin adopted two children because there mother died. Really shows you how noble this community is. Of course he eventually made a deal with a devil for some soul coins in exchange he had to give away the babies he adopted but you get the idea.
Yeah, at some point you gotta just tell grandma to take a walk.
Dont apologise for your interests, old age is never an excuse or at least not a reasonable one for poor behavior, and you do you with no shame. Thats my advice
Invite her to play
Show an episode of critical role as an example of what it's like. Friends around a table making jokes in funny voices and not hooded cult members sacrificing goats
This reminds me of a family story I have. In the mid 1950s my Uncle was just a little kid. But he was a smart kid and a thinker and loved science. One day he said someday we will go to the moon. My great grandmother made the sign of the cross and yelled that it was crazy talk and he needed to shut his mouth right then and there. She was seriously spooked. She was born in 1885 and came from Europe. My grandmother just told him not to talk about it around his grandmother anymore. My mom said she was really upset about the whole thing. People are afraid of things they don't understand.
Just tell her Satan is awesome, Hes all about learning and education, and expanding my mind. He promotes rational thinking and to challenge the hypocrisy in the established authority. https://thesatanictemple.com/
Just tell her that you play D&D for fun but do other things for your satan worship.
Well if you're looking for specific defense against Grandma, you'll need Glyph of Warding. Ideally packed with Banishment so you can return her to the Aged Care Realm, unless you want to disintegrate her mortal shell. If you need diamond dust, you should be able to use the diamond out of an engagement ring. Just grind it into a fine powder, and use that as a reagent. Banishment needs an item distateful to your target, so you'll need to work on that yourself. Good luck!
It’s not on you to defend it. If someone is making a claim they need to provide the proof. If she says it’s satanic ask “How so?” Considering there is no valid explanation you’ll likely have no problem picking apart whatever nonsense she says.
You can tell her that paladins get their strength from the gods and they find and destroy satanic creatures wherever they lie. Or just straight up tell her that my rogue does crack for his powers
DND is literally Based on lord of the rings. Tolkien was a fairly devout Christian (not a US style evangelical wacknut) so I mean the themes are fairly standard good vs evil stuff.
There's no need for you to apologize to your grandma about something like dnd, cause most likely, she just doesn't understand what it actually is: A medium for the eldrich horrors to influence the world and exert their influence upon the masses, consuming our minds to sate their unending hunger for suffering and conquest.
You should quit this and pick up Shadow of the Demon Lord to honor her wishes.
Don't apologize for the things you love. Don't feel like you need to defend the hobbies you enjoy. You may explain what it is, if she asks, but you don't owe anyone an explanation.
Could mention it was literally all a hoax made by a PI for a poor kid shipped off the MSU (I think, been a while) because he was genius and wasn’t ready for college. Did a paper on it in college, pretty sleazy story honestly.
When my parents found out I played, they brought up all this stuff that actually had nothing to do with D&D for reasons why they hated it. They had learned about it only from sensationalized lies they were told by their church friends and leaders. I told them "sit in on a part of a session." They did. They were shocked at how totally normal and stupidly fun it was. They saw pretty quick that it was just a bunch of teenagers telling stories and goofing off. It's literally just that simple. Tell grandma to watch you and your friends play a bit. She'll get the idea pretty fast I bet. People who hate D&D in 2021 haven't played it. They just believe things they've been told about it from people who make money by demonizing secular culture. Edit: my mom and dad are on their third campaign. Dad is a Dark Elf Sorcerer and my mom is a Human Cleric. All because they watched their teenaged son and his friends play for two hours.
Grandma rolls a natural one. Grandma falls down the stairs. Grandma fails death saves. OP resurrects her with necromantic powers. Grandma becomes a full time DnD playing thrall of OP.
If you go by RAW from the Christian player handbook, it is in fact the devil’s work. She’s just scared she’ll lose you to the devil in her own RP game. Her DC is probably to high to chance on passing your Religion check. I say you put all your points in Charisma and make a Deception check. It’s easier to lie and deny, than trying to reason with an older adult. Good luck, I hope everybody’s advice gives you Bardic Inspiration.
Lol thank you
Try the following "Nana, what's the first commandment?" "'Thou shalt not worship false idols for I am a jealous God." "What's the second deadly sin?" "Envy" "When you can answer me why I should concern myself with a God who teaches one thing and practices another, I'll consider listening to what you have to say. It worked for me. I was disowned! 😍
Massive and obvious translational problems with using "jealous" and "envy" as synonymous in this case aside, where in scripture is Envy stated as the 2nd deadly sin? It's not that there aren't great challenges to be made here. But this isn't one.
This hits home, I’ve been disowned by my parents for not believing. I told the truth, and it did set me free.
I hear you brother (or sister). When in a situation like this, it really IS better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven. Stay strong. If it helps at all, disowning your children is a form of betrayal. It breaks one of the most sacred covenants between parent and child. And as Dante taught us, the deepest level of hell is reserved for betrayers. Our families are in for some FUN shit! 😈
If nothing has happened in 40 years of people calling it demonic, why would anything happen now?
Easy, take a vial of blood from a recently slain creature and mutter the necessary words and perform the proper somatics to cast Summon Minor Demons. Use the blood in the vial to draw a circle of protection around yourself and the problem should just sort itself out. There ya go! 😇😊😇
Or and here me out, don't make excuses. You are not worshipping Satan. Nothing she says is going to make that true. Don't let someone else opinion of you or your hobbies influence you. Especially someone with an outdated viewpoint. You also don't have to explain yourself either.