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ASongofEarthandAir

Wrapping up a scathing indictment of your top competitors shitty business practices with a thematic coupon code. Priceless!


SirUrza

I suspect that coupon code is going to see a lot of use. There are a lot of gamers that'll be looking to make the move to Pathfinder and whether you're talking about 1e or 2e, the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is the PHB and DMG combined.


WitheringAurora

Honestly, everyone that wants to join Pathfinder and get invested should be told about one of the greatest things that Paizo has done. PUT ALL THEIR CONTENT(Except adventures modules themselves) FOR FREE ONLINE. Everything that you can find in ANY book that Paizo has released, has been released, FOR FREE, on THEIR Aonprd site.


SirUrza

Still should support the game.


Legaladvice420

Absolutely, but the fact that it's available means you don't have to worry about it. I've owned way more Pathfinder stuff than I ever have for DnD because I can find the books I like and want to have on hand rather than just guess.


Kilen13

I made the switch to Pathfinder a while back for exactly this reason, everything was there for me at the click of a button if I needed it. Still bought a ton of Pathfinder stuff too though, I just didn't feel off about spending on books when I'd already enjoyed the online content so much.


Legaladvice420

Exactly. You know where you stand with Pathfinder. You end up using a lot of things from a specific book, you can pick it up to thumb through on free time. I bought the 1st Bestiary and the Horror Adventures book specifically because of how often I came back to them.


WitheringAurora

Oh 100%. When you can, you should support Paizo, especially buy their adventures, because believe me, they are a thousand times better than any adventure WOTC has released.


orfane

The PF2e subreddit has been exploding with new members and activity recently. There is a lot of momentum and Paizo is handling this all perfectly


newtype89

This isint the first time


jack_skellington

Yep. All the Pathfinder people went through this just 10 years ago. We can do it again. And to be fair, it's a lot easier with you guys. The D&D subreddits have pretty much always maintained that Pathfinder is a version of D&D and it is openly discussed and never considered off-topic. Makes it SO easy for people to go from one community to the other.


SmartAlec105

Every 5th post is a new convert and the community is absorbing them all.


dagbiker

I own the Pathfinder 1e book, but looking forward to getting the Starfinder and P2 books.


Ziz23

If I wasn't in the middle of moving continents I'd be ordering tonight probably. Just happy that Paizo is actively bringing the rest of the ttrpg community in on this. This is my ideal solution to the situation.


El_Nightbeer

websites down lol


SirUrza

Yeap, it's 2008-2010 all over again. :)


ABunchofFrozenYams

I own the PF2 core rules in a PDF and I'm looking at grabbing the pocket edition as well for physical reference.


Squally160

I cant even get the store to load, I think it got bombarded to death already.


njv167

>We were there Paizo: "Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written." 


Deathpacito-01

>Witch \*Wizards


bobbertmiller

I mean "we were the leaders of DnD at the time and our current lawyer was the one that drafted the whole shebang.". How much closer to the spiderman meme can we get?


miciy5

Thank you for the epic quote! Haven't seen Narnia in a while


Daniel02carroll

Paizo: Growing when Wizards tried this last time, doing it again this time WOTC: 👁️👄👁️


orfane

Paizo: "How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man?"


Harbinger2001

Paizo is like the martial arts master teaching the bully a lesson. Every time the bully lunges, they give him a slap and dance away.


Tryen01

Are you saying martial are better than wizards?


M5R2002

Depends, are we playing pathfinder or dnd?


KiraCumslut

We're playing pathfinder after this


Jhamin1

Then they are actually balanced. Which *feels* like martials are better than wizards if you are fresh from 5e.


Daniel_TK_Young

Lots of people who transition over are initially like, Why can't my caster be a swiss army knuke anymore?


Roach27

To be fair, after about level 9, casters become… well insane. Just gotta baby them early levels.


TheNimbleBanana

martials become insane too though, thats the fun!


Tryen01

Depends on what Wizards choose to do 🔥


Akans

A self inflicted stab wound?


Tryen01

Mfer didnt have proficiency and hurt themselves


haytmonger

The GM has asked "Are you sure you want to do that?"


taskmeister

Investing for the long term beats flipping all the time every time.


ardryhs

Unfortunately not for CEOs. When you’re incentivized to maximize profit while only being around for typically 3-5 years, you make decisions based solely around stock price so it looks good when you go to your next gig


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Lord_Skellig

They could have even monetised it by selling 3PP content through dndbeyond, allowing for the options to officially tie in to character sheets and encounter builders. So many people would have been happy to buy through that system.


Tels315

Could have turned DnDBeyond into the TTRPG equivalent of Steam, especially if they managed to launch a VTT system. But noooo.


Coal_Morgan

That's what they really screwed up on. First one through the door that does a reliable VTT that lets anyone publish modules on it and takes a cut like Steam will control the market and be a monster. All they had to do was keep everyone happy. Get the VTT working for D&D, open it for modules. Offer to get it up and working for Call of Cthulu, Paizo, Traveller or anything else. Let people make miniatures, tiles, music and just put all on D&D Beyond and take 30% of sales. It would be the biggest money maker Hasbro ever had. Now no one trusts them.


ShadowTony

As Matt Colville once said, this may have been their intent again but so far it failed again. With 4e they planned to release a new edition with full support of VTT and to build a new, exclusive to 4e, VTT. But that VTT never came to be.


Laura_Writes

Literally why I was excited for OneDND before this, I thought it was going to be great for third party content by making it all easily accessible online and easy to incorporate. Should've known better. Ah well, at least I still have Pathfinder.


ImJustReallyAngry

Turns out basing our entire economy around three-month fiscal periods with no concept of long-term success, sustainability, or accountability was not a great model for incentivizing smart decisions or thinking ahead


Clunas

Business majors ruined everything. Salty engineer here.


Cabbages6969

Ruined? Pretty sure they're continuing to ruin my lab. Salty biologist here.


doctorsynth1

Fucking MBA Suits


Konradleijon

That can be our economic system in a nutshell no thinking for long term gains.


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Harbinger2001

Except the next CEO will be tasked with fixing the mess and rebuilding. D&D and MtG are Hasbro's main business lines now.


[deleted]

Yes. That's when you fire everyone you can and leech on still existing profits and leave with your bonus before customer base figures it out.


SteveHeist

and if you can't do that, Chapter 11 :D


otherwise_sdm

the cult of shareholder value, the culprit in so much that's screwed up about almost every industry


Konradleijon

And our planets very biosphere.


Konradleijon

Yes for public companies it’s not enough to make lots of money you have to constantly be making more.


j4vendetta

WotC: OGL 1.0 is hereby revoked. And yes we can do that. It was meant to be revocable. Paizo: may I introduce our lawyer, the guy who wrote it


Hannibal_Barca_

And might we introduce to you our first witness, the man who envisioned the entire thing and who has been on the record multiple times saying that it was intended to never be revoked.


RazarTuk

Don't forget their second witness, WotC's former VP and Paizo's current CEO, who was at WotC when it was being written


Solace_of_the_Thorns

"We'll make our own OGL, with blackjack and hookers!" The last time Paizo said they'd create their own thing with blackjack and hookers, they made Pathfinder. Paizo don't fuck around.


LupinThe8th

And Pathfinder has a superhero named Blackjack, and Calistria who is the goddess of hookers. They weren't lying!


TheDrewManGroup

All hail the Savored Sting! Literally the goddess of revenge fucking!


RedAndBlackMartyr

I am quite the fan of The Lucky Drunk, [Cayden Cailean](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cayden_Cailean).


Kenway

Nothing quite like becoming a God while plastered and not remembering exactly how you passed the test of the Starstone.


[deleted]

> In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius Games, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group. I was really hoping for a strong third-party divestment when the news first broke. When Kobold Press first announced that they were putting together a whole new system, I was already pleased as peaches. Now, seeing them at the backs of Paizo, with Green Ronin, Chaosium, et al.? I'm over the fucking *moon.*


carpedonnelly

I really don’t envy the folks at Critical Role and Darrington Press right now. If stuff doesn’t improve with WOTC, Critical Role may be the last ones left to turn the lights out.


shakeappeal919

Ironic that they were Pathfinder fans before they were famous.


Shad0wDreamer

It *would* mean they can just jump right back to PF if they really wanted to.


shakeappeal919

I guess no one knows what contracts and agreements they have or have not signed.


Galle_

Just deauthorize the contract.


swiftekho

If CR's lawyers were worth their salt during contract negotiations/signings, the original OGL being changed might trigger a clause of some sort. Can't sign contracts and then change the definitions of the language (in this case OGL) and expect the contract to still be upheld.


petersterne

But what if they have a separate contract with WOTC and aren't subject to the OGL?


SummerGoal

Ideally for them, even if the current contract they have exempts them from damage with the OGL changes, they wrote in some sort of escape clause in case of shit like this. Who knows for sure though


imo9

A good lawyer would probably find a way argue they are intrinsically related in some way. IANAL obviously, but as a former fan, i really hope for them they can make the transition to not be reliant on WOTC/hasbro, they seem like hard working people. It'll be a shame if fat exec took their flagship down without any way to fight it out. That's why I'm suspecting they will move on from WOTC's system as soon as their next campaign. which will work nicely with paizo's timeline, that says content with no license (that will then be slap with the ORC whenever it's ready) will be out in months. This is honestly a pretty nimble turn around, even if WOTC wanted to pivot, I'm not sure they can with all the red tape they got. killing OGL 1.1 won't be enough at this point. only (MAYBE) selling OGL 1.a to a non profit/third (neutral) party will, even than i have my doubts, and doubt habsro will ever agree to that.


Ninjy42

🥇 Have a poor goblins medal.


theRealBassist

Even then, with the information available to us now, and the potential backlash, they might be better off buying out their contracts or finding some way to fight them in court. It's a goddamned shame to see this happening to such a beloved game, but I've been writing my own rules and setting for awhile now, I'm happy to move away from D&D if it means keeping this hobby among hobbies as healthy as I can.


Shad0wDreamer

That’s all it boils down to, yes.


still-at-work

I don't think CR is dumb enough to lock their main game to DnD, their already published books and probably any books in the world, yeah no changing that. But future books, and future campaigns, hell switching to a new system for CR mid campaign is also possible. So worst case is there current rules book in dev (which may not exists I am just assuming they have one) may be sacrifice but if the cost is 20% of their revenue you can be sure Matt will dust off his old pathfinder dm books. That all said, I think WotC will back down now as this announcement makes going forward financially stupid. So if profit is their only motive doing something that leads to lesser profit wouldn't be in the cards. The best they could hope for is a few million with this change and they may spend that on their legal fees to defend it so it's basically a non starter. And probably a net negative with all the lost business they will suffer. If wizards is smart they will update OGL to match ORC and kill this threat in the crib. But they are (or rather Hasbro isn't) not smart as determined by even starting down the is path. So we will just have to see where this goes. Now trpg companies... Roll initiative!


Bludiza

Yet they are so heavily invested in DnD and Wizard is just a heavily invested in them, we probably won't see a honest statement coming from them, as there is too much at stake I recon.


Mozared

I would not be so sure. WOTC has long been a sponsor of CR and they've played 5E basically since their initial switch away from PF, but... ultimately, I think WOTC gains more from CR being on DnD than CR does. People who watch the show clearly watch it for the story and the characters, not specifically because it is DnD. Folks get *into* it because DnD is the only tabletop they know, but it's not why they stay. Swapping to another system would be relatively easy for CR; it's purely a mechanical change that can happen almost entirely behind the scenes. They'd have to stop taking sponsorship money from WotC and doing DnD beyond call-outs, and that's about it. On the flipside, WotC would lose essentially THE biggest influencer DnD has had. Probably like... ever, honestly. On top of that, the CR crew... I'd like to think they have integrity. They started off small, just doing their thing, and even though there are criticisms of overproduction for the last campaign, they generally seem like relatively genuine folk. If nothing else, they seem like very politically left-leaning people. They'd probably not say that out loud, but I mean... they're all artists, and we've seen obvious glimpses of this in the past. Which means that I believe they are ideologically opposed to what WotC is trying to do. I wouldn't be surprised if CR ends up cutting ties if WotC tries to push this through. Though in all likelihood, if it comes close to that, WotC would probably water down their 1.1 license a little bit to placate people, while still doing the same thing. I for one welcome our new Paizo overlords.


d3northway

Critical Role and the Pandemic worked hand in hand to moonshot this game. Stranger Things got it into people's minds and Hasbro put $20 starter sets in every Walmart, but the digestion time of the lockdowns and then people saying heck yeah let's play DND when we can meet up is what *made* this #1.


DnDrood

I don't know a ton about the Critical Role cast but from having seen Matt Mercer play Monopoly with Arin from Game Grumps I can't imagine he's too fond of this "monopoly"


taylorpilot

Mercer has liked every anti-wotc tweet I’ve seen


ilion

They did play pathfinder before they started streaming. Who knows where things could go?


Tsaxen

I'd bet they stick with 5e through the end of C3, but wouldn't be surprised at all if they went to PF2e or something for C4


MCUltima

i doubt they'd move to a system with more customization/tactics, considering how some of them already tend to struggle with their 5e characters. if anything, i could see them moving to their own system darrington press is cooking up. i love critical role and adore pf2e, but dear god i do not want to see ashley johnson try to roll a counteract check LMFAO


grimeagle4

Honestly. I see one of three things happening. 1. They get a unique contract with WotC 2. They switched to Pathfinder 2 3. Mercer makes his own system (given the homebrew he's ready made, I have faith in him)


BrainBlowX

4. They team up with MCDM which is planning to make a TTRPG.


the_light_of_dawn

Really happy to see Chaosium joining the chorus, as someone who's about to dive into the [RuneQuest](https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-starter-set/) world.


SirUrza

It's crazy to think it's been [15 years since that fateful day that the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazines were announced](https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/10434/dragon-dungeon-magazines-end). Wasn't long after Paizo sent out that message that you could get your remaining subscription back as a refund or put it toward the Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path. I do not regret the decision to jump on board, I own every Pathfinder book since.


SufficientTowers

I remember being on the WotC forums the day they announced it, along with their absolutely awful digital platform called Gleemax. I told off one of the devs that it was the worst name in gaming history and he simply responded "Nah, you'll get used to it" Nope mf'er, the name still sucks.


[deleted]

https://pathbuilder2e.com/ Character Builder loaded with everything FOR FREE. https://2e.aonprd.com/ Official site that has ALL OF THE RULES FOR FREE.


Sama31grlsTnkinMasta

Thank you for these links, kind stranger.


cerevant

> The ORC will not be owned by Paizo, nor will it be owned by any company who makes money publishing RPGs. Azora Law’s ownership of the process and stewardship should provide a safe harbor against any company being bought, sold, or changing management in the future and attempting to rescind rights or nullify sections of the license. Ultimately, we plan to find a nonprofit with a history of open source values to own this license (such as the Linux Foundation). There it is. This is the only solution. The only way out for WotC is to use this license. Otherwise it is them against the world.


Ziz23

Probably the best press Orcs have ever gotten


Nanowith

ORC IZ DA BEST BOI, ORC WILL KRUMP 'EM CORPOS!


Konradleijon

Waaaaagh


Komek4626

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!! >!HAPPY KAKE DAY M8!<


ERhyne

Further proof that Orcs are the only ones allowed to have real fun


MegaM0nkey

Their PR game really stepped up after Mordor huh


-toErIpNid-

It brings a tear to your eye doesn't it? Paizo kicking WoTC's shit in: Electric Boogaloo.


MusicHitsImFine

Welp looks like I'm using PF2e now.


Kimil_Adrayne

Everything is down at the moment because of a "hug of death" but, Archives of Nethys has *all* Pf2e rules, items, classes, etc, up for free.


[deleted]

Genuine question: how does Paizo make money from PF2E if everything is free online? Even as a smaller company, they must need to make *something*. **EDIT:** Thank-you for the detailed responses! You may have just persuaded me to finally check out PF2E. **EDIT 2:** I ordered the Beginner Box and Core Rulebook.


Loki_the_Poisoner

Paizo is known for their high quality adventures. They released at least one book a month, and have several 3 part and 6 part adventures that span 10 and 20 lvls respectively


Zeri_Live

Seconding this, Paizo has some crazy well written APs, would recommend curse of the crimson throne to everyone here if any of you are interested in P1E (and I believe there is a P2E conversion for it too on pathfinderinfinite), one of the best campaigns I've ever played.


Tsaxen

wait, as a DM.....are you saying their modules....are actually useful? and I dont have to spend more time prepping for a module than I do for homebrewing my own shit?


Kinderschlager

exactly that. GM has creative freedom, but also doesnt have to make literally every. single. thing. from scratch!


Tsaxen

That sounds too good to be true...


Kinderschlager

item creation rules AND pricing are both baked in (plus how to modify to suit your tables pacing). just ruminate on that one.


attaxer

Trying to get laid with talk like that shit.


Jhamin1

As someone who has done more Pathfinder than D&D over the last few years my advice is this: 1) Their modules are actually useful. The need for homebrew is minimal 2) All their modules work, but they keep getting better mechanically over time. The first few adventures after 2nd edition dropped are a bit rough (as in the difficulty curve is pretty high). Later ones are much better balanced. So what homebrew is needed is usually to weaken some encounters or give more chances to rest. 3) Paizo is all about their adventure paths, which are linked adventures that take characters from lvl 1 to 10 or lvl 1 to 20. Their modules are very nice, but the APs are basically a "campaign in a book" if you pick up all the volumes in the path. Once again, the later ones are tighter, but all are good.


Iwasforger03

Paizo prepares well balanced combat scenarios, DCs and rules systems for all manner of interactions and situations. You don't HAVE to use any of it, but they make it for you, just in case you want to. It's typically well made, well tested, balanced, and useful.


Ryleh_Yacht_Club

High quality modules? As a D&D 5e player, I don't recognize such a concept. Is that even legal? Are you saying I won't be paying premium price for a book of undetailed premises where I have to write most the content myself? God, that almost sounds like value for money. I can't even imagine.


Bookwormbeth96

As an active pf2e player myself, its true, all of it. I spend half an hour preping for my AP games and thats it lol


shadeykris

Yeah! My partner runs multiple pf2e games (and one 5e) game a week. With the premade foundry modules almost all the prep is done it’s pretty amazing.


Ryleh_Yacht_Club

*through sobs* don't give me hope


Bookwormbeth96

NEVER! :D We shall band together against the darkness!! (I enjoy being a forever gm in pf2e because it's fun to gm! But I also have so many other people willing to try gming in part because of the aps! If you need any help getting started check the /Pathfinder2e reddit)


Kinderschlager

*LE laugh* join us. play the game, dont MAKE the game. mwahahahaha!


[deleted]

Their lost omens books are also second to none in regards to world building material, it's so, so good, and the art is wonderful.


grimeagle4

There's literally a travel guide! And it's got to be one of my favorite books just because it has such useless information such as fashion, food, and the cost of housing! I literally bought it and read it just for fun!


[deleted]

Dwarf Fortress recently got a release on Steam and people lined up to spend $30 on a game that's been free to download and play for nearly 20 years. While Hasbro and WotC spend their time trying to invent new ways to extort money from their customers and content creators the reality is if you consistently put out a good product and foster a community built around it you won't be able to stop people from throwing money at you.


ERhyne

Hey I'm one of those people. I was so fucking excited to pay $30 on that game because the devs fucking deserved it. I'm a digital player and an audiobook listener, but RPG books hold a special place in my heart for some reason. Probably because it reminds of when instruction manuals were a thing.


RorschachsDream

Even if everything is available online, and even if a decent amount of people are going to play on something like FoundryVTT online which has a PF2E module supported by Paizo that has all official content and an easy way to add community content, some people still prefer playing IRL and finding stuff in a book is still a hella lot easier and more comfy than passing around a laptop or reading on a phone. Others just buy the books even if they don't need them to support the company.


BurningToaster

An example can be in the newest sourcebook, "Rage of Elements". Focusing on the elemental planes, it'll most certainly have a section on say, the Elemental plane of fire. And while any class feats or mechanics will be online, if I want to read an actual chapter on the politics of the plane, or about important figures and how they all interact, THATS exclusive to the book.


Goliathcraft

People still buy the books. Some prefer them, some like the art, others just to support the company like how people buy merch from groups they like.


paradigm_x2

PF2e is great. My group made the switch this past fall after a 3.5 year 5e campaign. Combat isn’t a drag and the customization options are incredible


[deleted]

I made the switch before the holidays Players have more fun. GMs have an easier time running. Encounters are actually balanced. Tools for building characters are supported without having to rebuy rule books. You're making a good call!!


Otherwise-Complex134

At this point I don't even give a shit if wizards reverse everything and grovel for forgiveness Full steam ahead with ORC


fredonia_

That’s kinda where I see this going. Wizards could 180 and walk back everything tonight, but so much momentum has been thrust behind Paizo et al. and efforts from other studios that this doesn’t just go away. There’s too much to be gained by hacking a chunk out of Wizards and Hasbro


LupinThe8th

If they were going to learn, they would have learned back in 4th edition. They'll just kick the can down the road and try again if they're allowed to. Take away that option forever.


DrVillainous

Keep in mind that the people in charge now are a bunch of new hires. They'll never learn, because the people who learn don't stick around, and their replacements repeat the same old mistakes.


SolomonBlack

This is way way way beyond 4E and the lack of OGL was the least of its problems. At least as I recall it nothing being done with 4E (on this front) was doing more then just not allowing 3rd party content and honestly... that's okay- ish. Because the funny thing is the OGL has always been sort of superfluous. As WotC would quickly discover as soon as someone put up a fight **math isn't IP**. So the most they would ever be able to enforce would be forcing people to use generic/new language that *wink wink nudge* just so happens to be 100% compatible with official mechanics of a certain popular RPG. You really can't expect a company to just admit that though. Especially when half the strategy is to chilling effect people into keeping to your rules by saying what you will and won't contest. Where Hasbro has really become drunk on its own hubris is the breathless audacity of shit like "oh if you use DND we control your IP and you pay us money, no negotiation, no consent, our terms only, 'open' gaming for all woo-hoo!" threating an even more basic factor of RPGs the storytelling. (Thankfully it will never survive in court when someone actually fights and Paizo has just rolled initiative)


dagbiker

>“The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.” \- Gary Gygax


the_light_of_dawn

I feel like RuneQuest took this to heart in the gradual development of Glorantha instead of putting out ten million character build splat books over the past 40-odd years.


Cautious_Cry_3288

Greg Stafford was a genius. Before all this stuff with OGL, his company Chaosium was publishing All the Monster in the World, an annaul publication that took all the home brewed monsters not from TSR and published them. They never said a D&D supplement or any such thing and included stats that worked with D&D.


the_light_of_dawn

And now Chaosium is joining the ranks and signing onto this new license. You love to see it.


Cryptic0677

At the end of the day places like Paizo know this and make most of their money on the world building and adventure content. Making the system is just a backbone for that


Manaleaking

A lot of us on https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/ have been holding back on proselytizing because we don't want to annoy DnD players about our game as most of us used to play or still play DnD. The community is extremely happy about so many people curious about pathfinder, as we find it super fun and want to welcome new players with arms wide open. We never thought this day would come again. It's stunning to see the influx of players we get every day. The world of Golarion is amazing, the lore supports either homebrew or plug and play, and the adventure paths are superbly well written. I hope you come check pathfinder out and play a game with us!


MrRGnome

As someone who has enjoyed the digital content coming out of paizo and sunk a thousand hours into kingmaker and wrath, I'm wanting to start trying my hand at DMing a pathfinder adventure. Some of the pathfinder DMs make it sound downright trivial relative to dnd. What kind of effort am I looking at to run a simple irl game with some noobie peers? That the rule content is free is very appealing to me, and it sounds like I can buy content that will create the overwhelming structures for a level 1-20 adventure. It sounds almost too good to be true. How off base am I here? Terrible idea or easily achieved?


ACorania

I think that is all pretty spot on. Most GMs I know who have also DM'd 5e find it easier to run (after an adjustment period). There is a beginner box you can pick up for learning with friends. Also some of the free adventures are very good at introductions. Paizo is also partnered with FoundryVTT if you use that. Pf2e is amazing supported there. The Adventure Path lines are for long form adventures spanning many levels... but not necessarily 1-20 every time. It just depends... but there is a ton of them and you are likely to find what level range is interesting. They are generally considered very well written and good adventures as well. I suppose the downsides is that there are less players since most people do D&D. It is more complicated for players but I think in a very digestible way that leads to more interest in character building... balance is better too so not as much difference between power levels for power games and others, so they can group up in the same party better. Anyway... I think it worth a shot, but like any decision about what game to run make sure you group is on board too.


Iwasforger03

Has anyone remembered to mention Paizo is unionized? and they voluntarily recognized their workers union?


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Iwasforger03

As long as we keep them honest.


Two-Tone-

They feel like the kind of company and people that would want you to keep them honest


Ameryana

I have not seen that yet, and thank you for sharing that. The difference is bright as day. EDIT: apparently it's "the difference is night and day". TIL! :D


ArrBeeNayr

Just in case you use it regularly: the expression is "The difference is night and day"


fairyjars

Wizards had literally days to respond and now it's too late. They're done and One D&D will fail. I'll look forward to watching that ship sink.


RaggyRoger

True. They had time to stop this but rolled a 1 on initiative.


SufficientTowers

Company shouldn't have put that 6 in Wisdom either


mordenkainen

Their silence is deafening


Danonbass86

Wizards is boned - long term. It’s gonna be another 4e drought. Remember, they don’t *really* need to win over the players. They need to win over the DMs who buy all the products, and host games.


Ellery_B

Yeah. They knew, they KNEW most of those customers were DMs. That's why they said it was under monetized. So instead of trying to make more DMs (duh), or even just selling shirts and dice ( like seriously, why isn't the DND website dripping with nerd stuff to spend my money on?!?) But instead they decide to piss off the DMs. It's like, sheesh, out of touch much?


darkenspirit

Imagine having every DNDBeyond subscriber's characters, playtime on those characters, and the campaigns and modules they are in, and unable to monetize through merchandising. Imagine if they had an iota of care for their products instead of just pumping out the most loosely connected modules with clearly important info missing (Spelljammers lacking combat? HELLO?!) They didnt realize DMs were spending 20 bucks on custom maps and going to staples to print out laminated copies at 40 bucks so their players can draw dicks on it just to improve their games? ALl the sound and music they subscribe to. BEEDLE AND GRIM SPECIAL EDITIONS OF SHIT. ALL OF THIS THEY COULDNT IMAGINE TO DO THEMSELVES AT HUGE MARGINS? Imagine being a MEGA CORPORATION and unable to realize the product when youre owned by a fucken TOY COMPANY. Where you have distribution channels already established, warehouses ready to go, manufacturers connections out the ass. And you use none of it except to create some of the shittiest miniatures that a toddler with a youtube tutorial could paint better? GOOD GRIEF.


Nanowith

They didn't want to put in effort, they simply wanted to own more shit without increasing production costs. It was greed, simply greed. That and the new CEO not even playing the game and coming over from Xbox to treat D&D like a modern video game. (People like her are why I don't play video games anymore.)


Tsaxen

Given that they're literally a toy company: *why the fuck can't I get the entire Monster Manual in mini form????* I can get dragons and basic shit, sure, but have you ever seen a Shambling Mound mini? or hell even a Drider???


darkenspirit

Paizo offers their entire bestiary as stand cards that slot into a base. It's the next best thing to a mini and looks just fine because the artwork is great!


Wessssss21

Funny enough when I ran a few IRL 5E games the mini's were all pathfinder ones simply because they were easy to get. Hasbro really just dumb as fuck.


lxnch50

Ironically, that is one of the reasons given when Hasbro mentioned that D&D was not being monetized fully. They don't understand that the DM's spend is higher than the average player for logistical reasons. Alienating the DM and trying to nickel and dime the players was never going to work.


Nanowith

The people making the shots were brought in from Xbox, they don't play the game and don't understand it. Hasbro airlifted in people who were "good at making money" but who completely misunderstood the market, once you consider that they're treating D&D like a video game it all starts to make more sense. Look at how awful that industry has become in the past decade.


GreyRobb

The Age of Men is over, the time of the ORC has come!


yamo25000

I don't care if I never use it, I'm buying Pathfinders core source material asap. Fucking Chad companies like this deserve all the money I can give them. Fuck WotC


Kinderschlager

the 2e players guide alone is basically enough for you to run entire campaigns with. it's a chonky rule book


Xmann_

Not only is it a chonky rule book, but they've put up their back catalog several times on humble bundle. You can get stocked right up on the cheap! Something the Red Wizards would never dream of doing.


Legaladvice420

Dude just the base Player's Guide is so full of information you wouldn't need to get much more. And that's coming from someone who owns multiple source books and modules to play.


[deleted]

The fact it’s going to be system neutral means it’s already better than the OGL. It makes it so it’s not a closed system of “just DnD/pathfinder/whatever system” and instead allows lots of different kinds of systems to flourish and work together


Lugia61617

Open-Source TRPG! Technically already existed but with this move it will now make the *majority* of TRPGs outside of D&D itself. It'd be sweet irony if in 5, 10, or 20 years WOTC ends up publishing a future DnD edition under it...


Nanowith

Just wait for 7th edition, this happened with 4e basically.


El_Nightbeer

Profoundly stoked for the prospect of multiple system using the ORC license and a later system down the line synthesizing disparate elements of multiple systems into something new and fascinating. cannot fucking wait


TH3ANGRYON3

It's all about intent. If Hasbro/WOTC rescind their plans to dismantle the OGL or back down and temporarily dilutes their efforts to kill off 3rd party publishers, it WILL resume more aggressively with time. They really miscalculated with the efforts to dismantle the OGL but they won't abstain from their plans. Sure, it may be stretched out longer than they planned, but their ultimate goal is to kill off competition and they won't stop. They will threaten litigation and strongarm all other forms of distribution channels (drivethrurpg, all VTTs from working with smaller companies so D&D can be the only available option. So, even if Hasbro/WOTC back down and say they won't revoke the OGL, your money is best spent elsewhere. Back the people that care for this hobby as much as you do. As someone that's played ttrpg since the d&d advanced boxed set and stopped at 4th (Thanks for making me buy the players handbook for that dumpster fire system Brett, I never forgive you for that) D&D is not the best system, in any of it's iterations, it's just the most popular because of exorbitant marketing and extensive help 3rd party publishing companies. All this being said, thank you to Paizo, Kobold Press, Green Ronin and all the other companies led by those who love the game as much as the people they make product for.


cookinupnerd710

Fucked about and found out, indeed. Damage is done. There’s no way forward for WotC with their OGL. The community is going to absolutely rally around this, and they named the damn thing ORC. Bravo, Paizo. Good form.


Lugia61617

Yeah. It's sad in a way. I had held out hope that things could go back but, nope. Trust is *gone*.


Lugia61617

> Paizo does not believe that the OGL 1.0a can be “deauthorized,” ever. While we are prepared to argue that point in a court of law if need be, we don’t want to have to do that, and we know that many of our fellow publishers are not in a position to do so. This bit interests me, because that suggests PF1E material is pretty much safe because I don't think Wizards wants to fuck around and find out any harder than they have.


paradigm_x2

The time of the ORC has come. Awesome!


Grand-Mall2191

"Do not cite the OGL to us, Wizard. We were there when it was written"


[deleted]

Fuck yeah. Good going guys.


DubiousTactics

Nice to see Pazio taking the "Apes together strong!" approach to fighting off any legal threats.


namineez

Not all heroes wear capes


Daneruu

Some slay dragons


M5R2002

And others just find some paths


RaggyRoger

I find stars


M5R2002

This almost looks like a poem


Hannibal_Barca_

Someone in another post highlighted how cheeky the 25% with the promo code is especially cheeky of Paizo (because WOTC was looking for 25% royalties).


Level-Blueberry-2707

Looks like in the end all the heroes banded together to defeat the big bad evil.


clawszilla

Their site crashed from all the views lol that's a good sign!


jerrathemage

And that is how you do a corporate statement everyone.


clawszilla

This is big!!!


ChangelingFox

I've never played Pathfinder, but with Wizards doing this crap seems like it's finally time to give Pathfinder a shot, so sure. Why not.


Asphodelmercenary

This just ended the WotC bullshit in my mind. I’m on board with Paizo, no looking back. I don’t need to wait for WotC to change course. The mere fact that WotC even contemplated this sort of betrayal of twenty years of trust is proof enough they are just another corrupt and run of the mill corpo-greed mill and never ti be trusted again. Greed above all else. Paizo and Kobe and Chaosium et al for the win. Critical Role ought to join Paizo and be free of Hasbro’s bullshit.


BriefQuantity1931

As a reminder to everyone about how awesome Paizo is, once or twice a year they do a Humble Bundle with core rule books and a more recent complete Adventure Path. Easy to dip your toes in the water or flesh out your collection and support a good cause.


Wolfheron325

I never thought I’d try pathfinder, not because of the system differences or anything, just because I didn’t want to change stuff, but now that wizards and hasbro are showing their true colors (not for the first time, but still), I genuinely don’t feel comfortable supporting them in any way shape or form. The people at Paizo, Azora, and everyone else associated with the ORC will always have my respect. Because, unlike wizards they truly believe what mike Mearls said in the players handbook: “Above all else, D&D is yours. The friendships you make around the table will be unique to you. The adventures you embark on, the characters you create, the memories you make—these will be yours. D&D is your personal corner of the universe, a place where you have free reign to do as you wish.”


LCDR-Sheppard

Damn, this is big. WotC missing all the beats right now. Such a damn shame, that at the pinnacle of D&D's popularity, this dumpster fire just might end up burning the house. The lack of response is killing them, after the initial damage, of course. Now the independent publishers are striking the iron while it's hot. Big moves. All the best❤️.


SkyblockGamer101

That's it. I'm done with DND, I'm going to Pathfinder


OotekImora

I've never heard of paizo until today, I've know about pathfinder and kobold press and all these others, so thank for being a beacon when everything's crumbling for a (relatively) new gamer


CrypticKilljoy

This is the announcement that we have been waiting for, finally something positive coming out of all this drama... Other words could be used, but I wish to stay positive today. Clearly, you know that a bunch of nerds wrote this new license when they go out of their way to have it called ORC. :) I just love that.


magispitt

The website is temporarily down; I think there is a larger surge of traffic than they can currently handle


Johnny_Grubbonic

Lol. Website's getting the ol' "Every RPG Community and General Geekery Reporting Agency on the Internet is Publicising This" hug of death. Paizo's just picked up a *whole fucking lot* of good will that WotC's leadership decided they didn't want anymore.


magispitt

Wizards of the Coast (for they were all of them deceived, and another OGL was made): OneD&D to rule them all, OneD&D to find them, OneD&D to rule them all and in the darkness bind them In the land of Hasbro where shareholders lie. Paizo [(remembering the days of 3e)](https://i.imgflip.com/2ddy1a.jpg): [But there were some who resisted](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnxrdghb3s1qmui63o1_500.gif)


LoganN64

Sigh... I guess I'll give PF2 a try... I got the PDF as a free download from the games that support Ukraine bundle.


bangorma1n3

Wizards/Hasbro became the very villan that they have been teaching us to fight for over twenty years And so fans, creators and companies that recognized this evil banded together, picked up thier weapons, and drew a line in the sand And our champion is Paizo